A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?

[iamfanboy]

So, yeah.

While the forums have been down, I've been doing some thinking (and working on a modular, sub-$10 river and lake system that only took me maybe 10 hours of work and has enough water for four or five tables, but that's for tomorrow), and I think I may have an oddball, interesting solution to the lack of light 'mech usefulness, and making 'Mechs king of the battlefield, and it relies on tiered initiative.

That is to say, that more mobile, flexible units have to move last, and get to shoot first.

The movement phase rules would look something like,

Each player rolls for initiative, the losing side selecting and moving a unit first. Both sides moves their units in this order, alternating until there are no units of that type left, then moving on to the next type. If one side runs out of that type of unit (eg, has no infantry while the other side has five platoons), then the other side finishes moving all of the units of that type until there are none left. Then both players move on to the next type.

1) Infantry/Battle Armor
2) Vehicles (except VTOLs)
3) VTOLS/Conventional Fighters/Aerospace Fighters
4) Assault Battlemechs
5) Heavy Battlemechs
6) Medium Battlemechs
7) Light Battlemechs

The logic behind this being that infantry are slowest to react, being composed of large teams, so should be the FIRST so every other unit can see what they're doing. Vehicles, having several crewmembers, are also slow to react. Battlemechs, having just one crewmember who's directly linked to his 'Mech, are the fastest, with light, mobile 'Mechs being king of reaction time.

It also makes the reaction phase more important, because now you have to torso-turn or turret-turn to bring mobile lights into your view.

It does wreak havoc with the swarming infantry rules, though. Haven't played much with BA or infantry, so I can't call what changes should be made though...


One POSSIBILITY I'm thinking of is using the same system but reversed in order for shooting, with an additional caveat: any damage done takes effect AFTER all units of that type have fired.

For example, you've got an Awesome and a Locust. They have two Javelins. The shooting goes Javelin, Locust, Javelin - and all damage takes effect, so if they critted the Awesome and removed a PPC, it wouldn't be able to fire that PPC once its own turn rolled around.

I dunno. I'm still ponderating this, especially the second part - giving lights the movement advantage would probably be more than enough. It would be a HUGE shakeup in the rules.

What do you think?

[Scotty]

The basic idea has promise, as shown by the success of the Leviathans ruleset (all hail the Worktroll!  And Herb), but I feel that for the BattleTech ruleset, instead of a flat "THIS UNIT MUST MOVE FIRST" scheme, it would be more advisable to use a modifier to initiative based on weight class.  After all, it's not really fair to the 2/3 Annihilator pilot if she has to ALWAYS AND FOREVER lose the initiative against a Light 'Mech.  Related to that, it also doesn't follow that said Annihilator will ALWAYS win initiative to a blindingly fast VTOL.

That said, I think that the modifier should be related to MP, perhaps in the same fashion BV is calculated, and applied to the unit individually.

Alternate proposal:  Allow winning intiative to decide whether to move first or last. 

[iamfanboy]

I dunno. I feel that would be more complicated (in a game that's plenty complicated as it is!) and let's face it, there NEEDS to be a reason to not use so damned many assault 'Mechs. As it is, the only downside to using assaults is that they don't move fast; which is hardly crippling considering people usually don't play on more than 2x2 mapsheets at most (usually 1x2).

With this approach, it favors tactical use of different weights; a group of heavies might outflank several assaults, but if the assaults are escorted by appropriate lights they could expose themselves to rear shots from the lights and barrages from the assaults.

VTOLS might possibly be in the Light 'Mech tier, and battlearmor could go with assault 'Mechs, but I'm not entirely sure yet. Haven't had the chance to actually playtest this, been busy with... uhh....

What HAVE I been busy with?

[garhkal]

Though i can see tiering initiative to make combined arms seem more important, i feel movement of lights (being more likely to be jumpers) is more than adequate for things as is for mech to mech fights.

[topcat]

Speed is speed, reactions are reactions - it's an apples to oranges kind of thing.  Initiative is more about reaction than speed.  If I go from my Camry to a Corvette, it doesn't improve my ability to react, it just means I can drive faster.

[Istal_Devalis]

I dont like a strict tiered system.  A good pilot should be able to react better then a mediocre one, even if his machine is a bit on the lumbering side.

Now, a series of bonuses/penalties based on weight?  That I could see.

I think increased scenario play would help get lights into the field more often too.  If you have a Chase scenario, or a recon scenarior, with a minimum speed, it'll make them more prevalent.

[Bad_Syntax]

Want to make lights useful again?

Stop playing with awesome pilots.  Start playing with 4/5 pilots, or even 5/6, as that is what most pilots are rated.  Veteran/Elite units are far less common.

You could also use double blind rules.

You could also use cheap lights, like the 500 BV ones, and use them to scout/spot for your LRM/TAG equipped units.

You could also use light mechs with *really* long ranged weapons, and keep them in the long range band moving at top speed.

Or the opposite, use very close range light mechs, use the terrain, and only expose yourself when you have a perfect shot.  Jump jets are helpful with this one.

Pulse/Targeting computers still suck for lights, but with average pilots they'll last much longer.

Bad Syntax

[foxbat]

I'm subscribing to what you posted 100% : BT is more fun when you have 4/5, or even 5/6 pilots, and a lot of units that would have ben useless shine again. This of course leaves pulse lasers, tarcomps and precision ammo, but these have drawbacks too. Our late Albatros (dang, how I miss our msn chats!  :() had once proposed to run a MM tournament with pilots pushed back to gunnery 4 if they used precision enhancing weapons : ie, a pulse boat would be run by a G6 pilot to make for the -2 bonus, and with of coursse BV adjusted accordingly. This never took off, but the issue is indeed valid.

[IndyRI]

Well, the idea behind the system shows promise. But I have to agree with Scotty in the sense that it is very limiting in a game where tactical fredom is practically a commandment.

While an initiative bonus weighted towards the faster force would make sense regarding bringing light mechs back to a usable level, a hard initiative order like the one you're suggesting would just be incredibly limiting. Assault mechs would still have the firepower and armor advantage, but having to basically get your rear armor sniped at every single turn would start to wear out very quickly. And while this would certainly make lights more prominent, I doubt it will do that nearly as much as it will make mediums and heavies even more common. A player might not want to select an assault due to the danger of almost always going first, but selecting a heavy or medium allows one to at the very least achieve a better compromise of initiative vs. combat effectiveness than a light would have.

And on top of all that, if the theory here is that faster mechs move first, why should a 2/3 Urbie move AFTER a 5/8 Timber Wolf? Or a 4/6 Vindie moving AFTER a 5/8 Falconer? It's a good start, but it's just a little too limiting for my tastes as is.

[mgctch]

Give the side with the most light mechs a +2 initiative die roll modifier; those with the most medium mechs a +1 (those with the most assaults a -1?).  Simple, fast, not unbalancing and provides an incentive to use lighter units without destroying the ability to use assault mechs.

[Patrick Dupree]

Putting Battlearmor and Infantry on position 1 makes AntiMech Attacks unplayable.
Infantry must move after the Mech to do this kind of attacks.

[OmniscientQ]

I've not seen any problems with light 'mechs being under-represented. In a one-off game, yeah, I can imagine some players just wanting to run assaults all the time. But lights definitely have their uses. As a fast spotter for a C3 network, or as ECM disruptors of hostile C3 networks, they're unmatched. Harassment is still perfectly viable in BT, regardless of what rules you're using. When your opponent closes with his assaults, your lights can easily skirt around behind with a few LRM launchers or large lasers (Or even with packs of SRM's, though it's certainly more dangerous.) Force your opponent to turn his back to at least one of your 'mechs.

Light 'mechs are still very powerful. They're just less forgiving of rookie mistakes. They don't really need an init bonus to justify their place in my units.

[Marlin]

This idea is interesting, but yes, a 5/8 Cougar should not be able to outmanoeuvre a Timber Wolf.

It should have to do with the actual speed and the actual Pilot quality. And yes, against a green or even Regular force of IS, a standard Clan light Mech can do many great things.

Like, kill them all.


:D

[Kovax]

Using individual initiative, modifiers for weight and speed might work, but it's a lot of extra info to track: who moves next?

Any system that uses either weight or speed of a few units to affect the entire side is prone to exploitation: taking 8 Savannah Masters (for both speed and weight bonuses to initiative) to go with that lance of Assault Mechs.

Always having one class of unit move first pretty much limits them to a fire support role; otherwise the rule change would instantly render that unit type "useless".  No thanks.

[Scotty]

Using individual initiative, modifiers for weight and speed might work, but it's a lot of extra info to track: who moves next?

If you're only applying modifiers, it's no more complicated than applying the modifiers directly to the initiative roll.  The only problem comes if you're not playing by Individual Initiative rules.  If you aren't, then perhaps the tiered initiative system would work decently, but individual works very well for this sort of thing without making it feel really contrived.

[MemphisMark]

There is a difference between good, sound ideas and ideas that sound good. This is unfortunately in the latter category. Like others have said, I can see an initiative roll modifier based on how many light mechs you have, but a tiered system like that just won't work. You need the tactical flexibility to sometimes move your lights first, and assaults last instead of the other way around in your system.

Keep working on it, you have a wonderful idea, it just has to be tweaked a bit to do the best it can!

[Scotty]

Quick Poll:  How many people reading this thread have ever used Individual Intiative?

Modifiers based on weight class and vehicle type would not be hard to implement.

[Kovax]

I've seen and played games with "individual initiative", only once with initiative die rolls, but several times with a playing card assigned to each unit.  In every case with 4 or more players, getting the proper player to respond when it's their unit's move caused a major slowdown of the game.  It was a great idea, but didn't work very well in practice; not totally broken, but certainly not an improvement.

[mensa12345]

I don't really think it's necessary.  I think light mechs are plenty effective now.  As a practical matter, I tend to move them last when alternating movement, so effectively they go last anyway.  Having them always move last would end the assault mech.  It would be one backshot after another until death.  What would really help would be if megamek had a rolling mapsheets option.  That's what I used to play with back when I had the time to play live.  Now, it's like every battle takes place in a box canyon, giving heavier mechs and vehicles a huge advantage.

[Scotty]

I've seen and played games with "individual initiative", only once with initiative die rolls, but several times with a playing card assigned to each unit.  In every case with 4 or more players, getting the proper player to respond when it's their unit's move caused a major slowdown of the game.  It was a great idea, but didn't work very well in practice; not totally broken, but certainly not an improvement.

Use dice, it's easier.  Reroll ties.  If a player doesn't notice it's his/her turn in one minute, skip that unit and move on.  Players learn to pay attention QUICKLY like that.

It also permanently ends that thing called init sinking, which while perfectly valid, is entirely too frustrating.

[Bad_Syntax]

I've used a deck of cards in other games and it works great.

And its really fun if you don't know the sequence before hand.

And it works great for 1 unit at a time, without rolling bunches of dice. (just mark 7 Hearts or whatever on your record sheet).

[Caturix]

Making a new system is a lot of work,
thanks for putting efforts into creating something for the community.

However, I don't think I would appreciate this kind of Initiative:

I never use Individual Initiative, as it is so frustrating when you can't plan any move 'cause you don't know in which order you'll be forced to move each mech. I never have fun when this system is used.
If tiered initiative was to be used, some players would play assault mechs lances versus assault mechs lances; as it happens now. So, no change there.
As it has been said earlier, if such a system was used, it would be the death of swarm attacks from BA. And certainly BA and Infantry would seldom be used outside cities, if at all.

I think that speed in itself, and nimbleness are enough to allow some flexibility in the choice of which unit to move first.

Lights are, universe-wise, useful, that's why they are plentiful. Depending on the scenario you're playing they are invaluables.
If some players never, or rarely use them, no system will change that. Because if they do choose Assault/Heavy mechs over Lights/Mediums, it is because they want to have bigger, more numerous guns, and tougher machines. Because they have more fun beating on each other like boxers until only one stays up.
Others would rather fight like duellists, with foils where agility and speed are of utmost importance. Where the little cuts surgically done are victories in themselves.

I don't see the need to "force" the first category of players to play as the second ones do or face grievous penalties on the battlefield.

Players who would use the system proposed are most probably already using lights, and finds them useful. Players who don't won't adopt the tiered initiative anyway.
I don't see a need for it.

The actual rules are good enough for me.

I may be wrong, of course.

[mutantmagnet]

Speed is speed, reactions are reactions - it's an apples to oranges kind of thing.  Initiative is more about reaction than speed.  If I go from my Camry to a Corvette, it doesn't improve my ability to react, it just means I can drive faster.

You used a terrible example. A Corvette accelerates  far better than a Camry and that means a Corvette can react better than a Camry in certain situations. Other things that affect reaction is center of gravity (light mechs are far lower to the ground than heavys and assaults) and traction (which probably gives assaults a better reason to have on par reaction abilities)

[MEP]

I appreciate the thought that went into this and I'm sure you could house rule it. My basic problem with the premise is similar to what others have already stated. Initiative has nothing to do with speed. Initiative is essentially representative of one side being more alert, prepared or situationally aware than the other. It makes perfect sense that a good pilot, with a clear view of his surroundings and a lot of coffee in his system should have the initiative over the guy who got caught facing the wrong way while reading a porno in his cockpit. It really doesn't make sense that the guy with the faster mech has better initiative, he could still be asleep at the wheel.

If there were going to be modifiers for initiative added to the game, it would make more sense to apply them based on pilot skill, sensor packages, satellite intel or terrain (surprising someone from behind cover or not seeing that armored batallion 100 yards ahead of you because you're cutting your way through thick jungle and they can totally hear you coming).

It just doesn't make sense to tie initiative to speed in my mind.

[MEP]

Speed is speed, reactions are reactions - it's an apples to oranges kind of thing.  Initiative is more about reaction than speed.  If I go from my Camry to a Corvette, it doesn't improve my ability to react, it just means I can drive faster.

You used a terrible example. A Corvette accelerates  far better than a Camry and that means a Corvette can react better than a Camry in certain situations. Other things that affect reaction is center of gravity (light mechs are far lower to the ground than heavys and assaults) and traction (which probably gives assaults a better reason to have on par reaction abilities)

Actually, your example makes less sense. The Corvette is not reacting, and neither is the Camry. The driver is. One may provide better feedback to the driver than the other, but the fact remains that the car is not doing the driving. Initiative is not about mechs, it's about mechwarriors. If a mech has equipment which gives a pilot a better view of the battle or a heads up about incoming ordinance, then it makes sense that the pilot should gain some kind of initiative bonus from that. But that's sensor packages and bigger windows, not speed.

[iamfanboy]

*shrug* Well, it was an idea that I was toying with; mostly posted to raise my post count and get rid of that STUPID captcha thing. Didn't realise that so many people would hate it... Heh.

[topcat]

Speed is speed, reactions are reactions - it's an apples to oranges kind of thing.  Initiative is more about reaction than speed.  If I go from my Camry to a Corvette, it doesn't improve my ability to react, it just means I can drive faster.

You used a terrible example. A Corvette accelerates  far better than a Camry and that means a Corvette can react better than a Camry in certain situations. Other things that affect reaction is center of gravity (light mechs are far lower to the ground than heavys and assaults) and traction (which probably gives assaults a better reason to have on par reaction abilities)

You're focusing on the car, not the driver.  For instance, put the two up against each other at a drag strip with a trained drag racing driver in the Camry and a middling driver in the Corvette.  When the lights go green, the trained driver is more likely to get the jump on the Corvette, even though the Camry is slower in every possible way.  After the first few feet, the Corvette will likely take over, but the initiative will be seized by the trained driver.  Another example, put a deer in the road in front of them.  All that matters in initiative terms is who goes first.  What happens after that is for other aspects of the game system.

[garhkal]

SO i could see an init bonus based on piloting diff.. 
Say a 5/6 pilot/gunnery is the base.  They get 1d6 for init.
A 4/5 gets +2
A 3/4 gets +4
A 2/3 gets +6
and a 1/2 gets +8

[Kovax]

The current system is already pretty harsh on Lights whenever the gunnery skills get below "standard" 4/5, and 1/2 pilots make anything under about 50 tons all but pointless.  Speed doesn't help much when it only raises the to-hit numbers to 5 or 6.  At 4 gunnery, speed = armor.  At 2 gunnery skill or less, only heavy armor = heavy enough armor.  Lights and heavy armor are mutually exclusive.

Giving additional initiative advantages for better pilots takes a skewed situation and compounds it.  At that point, it doesn't pay to take a Light 'Mech, because not only will the other guy with the big guns be able to hit you regardless of your modifier, but you probably won't even get a chance for a backshot.

[Istal_Devalis]

If you're using individual iniative (or a variant there of) and want to make it based on pilot skill? Honestly, I'd make it its OWN skill to rival Gunnery and Piloting.  Being able to place yourself in locations to minimize fire or hit rear armor reliably? Worth its weight in gold, especially for light mechs.