Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?

[SCC]

OK it's said that in BT most merc outfits fail, and I believe that's fairly early on in their careers when in reality their just a bunch of guys with 'Mechs calling themselves mercs. Now at this point the 'Mechs will be owned by the guys piloting them as opposed to the company itself, now this is important, because when whatever happens that causes the company to fail it's likely that several of the 'Mechs are destroyed, which leaves their pilots Disspossed or they don't leave their heir a 'Mech.

Well sooner or later you have to wonder where are they all coming from? 100 MechWarrior families a year sounds like a reasonable amount, so sooner or later the supply of 'Mechs for such units has to dry up.

[Kidd]

 8) http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58521.0;all

[Daemion]

I kinda wonder if a lot of them aren't coming from retired vassal retinues and such.  You have guys from a unit that served together, and when term is up, they decide to keep going as a unit, but under a different name.

There could be ulterior goals for them not simply retiring and going home, like revenge for some slight in a recent action against another force. (Raid gets ugly, and the guys on one side have tracked down the attackers.)  Or, it could be there's no home to go back to. (Count Dogoodar lost his holdings, and the new guy is a Jackass.)  It's safe to bet that most of the mercs are ex-military in some fashion, having served with a house, under someone somewhere up or down the ladder of nobility.

That's the fresh faces.  There are probably plenty that have been recycled from other failed commands.

It's easy to surmise the latter based on the notion that a lot of start-ups are merely mishandled.  Mech pilot casualties, if the game is anything to go by, are actually rather infrequent, even when you string out the battles to a high quantity.  Mechs are usually disabled far earlier through limb damage or coring, than by head-shot.  Even 'Flopping Dragon' syndrome will leave the pilot unconscious before he has a chance to kill himself from falling damage.

That's how I see the major sources playing out. There is room for oodles of minor exceptions, and that's what makes origin stories kinda fun.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I always envisioned the pool of mechs and mechwarriors as being larger (even MUCH larger) than the combined House Armies.  If it weren't so, how could it have been possible for organized crime lords to have been able to put together a dozen regiments worth of battlmechs?

If you do subscribe to the notion then not every mech built is necessarily earmarked for a House Army and that smaller investors like arms dealers can end up with brand-newly manufactured mechs in addition to the secondary and tertiary trade between House Army cast-offs being available.

Replacement mechs isn't a problem, in my mind.  Which leaves finding pilots.
In the early days of BattleTech, the tagline was "Life is cheap, BattleMechs aren't".  If you were fortunate enough to have more mechs than pilots, all you'd have to do is holler out loud "Who wants to be a MechWarrior!?!" and you'll be swamped with applicants.  All you have to do, worst case scenario, is choose whoever's the least unqualified.

Yes, around 1990 the "Life is Cheap" era ended and being dispossessed was no longer a fate worse than death, since new mechs are flooding into service.  You don't have to be a scion of a Mechwarrior Family anymore to be a mechwarrior anymore; all it takes now is graduating some training academy.  If you're the son of a moisture farmer on some desert hellhole and got away from that life and became a MechWarrior for a Great House Army, odds are slim you own your mech.  Once you make the decision to "go pro" and become a Merc, odds are slim you get to take your House Army-owned mech with you.  In this era not only are mechs more easily obtained, so are actual trained pilots.

[SCC]

I kinda wonder if a lot of them aren't coming from retired vassal retinues and such.  You have guys from a unit that served together, and when term is up, they decide to keep going as a unit, but under a different name.

I don't think that kind of position comes with a 'Mech when you retire.

That's the fresh faces.  There are probably plenty that have been recycled from other failed commands.
Those don't count for these purposes.

It's easy to surmise the latter based on the notion that a lot of start-ups are merely mishandled.

That could well explain things, a unit that failed in such a manner wouldn't have anyone losing their 'Mech.

'Mech pilot casualties, if the game is anything to go by, are actually rather infrequent, even when you string out the battles to a high quantity.  Mechs are usually disabled far earlier through limb damage or coring, than by head-shot.  Even 'Flopping Dragon' syndrome will leave the pilot unconscious before he has a chance to kill himself from falling damage.

This is more the 'Mech is destroyed then damaged, even majorly.

I always envisioned the pool of mechs and mechwarriors as being larger (even MUCH larger) than the combined House Armies.  If it weren't so, how could it have been possible for organized crime lords to have been able to put together a dozen regiments worth of battlmechs?

This makes too much sense, but you have to wonder why all these 'Mechs belong to crime syndicates.

If you do subscribe to the notion then not every mech built is necessarily earmarked for a House Army and that smaller investors like arms dealers can end up with brand-newly manufactured mechs in addition to the secondary and tertiary trade between House Army cast-offs being available.

I think it's safe to assume that this is the case, but even then it's likely highly regulated, at the very least manufacturers are going to want to be sure they aren't selling to pirates because if they do sooner or later said pirates are likely to show up looking for spare parts (There wouldn't be intermediates in the sale of this type of military hardware)

Replacement mechs isn't a problem, in my mind.  Which leaves finding pilots.
In the early days of BattleTech, the tagline was "Life is cheap, BattleMechs aren't".  If you were fortunate enough to have more mechs than pilots, all you'd have to do is holler out loud "Who wants to be a MechWarrior!?!" and you'll be swamped with applicants.  All you have to do, worst case scenario, is choose whoever's the least unqualified.

Internal disconnect aside that makes too much sense.

[guardiandashi]

you have to look back to the European, and other nobility and feudal time model.

it wasn't a battletech thing but a novel by Gordon R Dickson (one of the dragon knight series novels) that really put it into perspective for me.

every "nobleman" is effectively on stage all the time, (when they are in public IE in the presence of at least one other person) and they act how they think a nobleman should act.

one of the things a lot of nobles are is generous especially to their vassals (followers) so if a nobleman comes into money there is a good chance that they will give a gift to their follower's so lets say you are a regular follower (say an armsman) and you do something they appreciate they will give you a "gift" that sort of corresponds to the service as a reward.
such as:
promotion to: senior armsman, squire, Sargent, etc.
gifts: money, gear, such as weapons or armor, tools of the trade, etc.

if the noble gave you a gift, in many cases that gift is now your property, and doesn't necessarily have to be turned in when you retire, it stays as your property, and if you pass away is handed down to your heirs.

[SCC]

Interesting thought, however I don't think that it would work in BT, for one thing the social structures that made such gift-giving near mandatory no longer exist and for another once LostTech sets in and 'Mechs start getting rare it's not going to be practical.

[Dark Jackal]

I believe the majority of equipment made in BT lasts significantly longer than what we're used to. The technology level of the SW did not degrade lower than the AoW era so the same basic standards of production were maintained implying that old relics could still be maintained. The worst of the worst would look like a mish-mash of parts (i.e. Franken 'Mechs) being held on by duct tape and glue if it came to it.

[SCC]

Oh it does but that doesn't really apply here, sooner or later you take it into battle and it gets shot up and you don't get it repaired.

[guardiandashi]

Interesting thought, however I don't think that it would work in BT, for one thing the social structures that made such gift-giving near mandatory no longer exist and for another once LostTech sets in and 'Mechs start getting rare it's not going to be practical.

except that it is explicitly stated in various places that it happens

I realize its an extreme case but:
look at the example of "main event" (aka the 1st black thorns novel)
the son of the leader on the planet they were sent to, resigned under a cloud (he quit rather than being courtmartialed) for selling house gear on the black market, and he managed to keep the mechs that constituted the unit the thorns ended up fighting before the clans.
Rhana Rose was GIVEN an advanced tech phoenix hawk, for being the valedictorian in her class (granted it was the school for the northwind highlanders but ....  )

I know there are other examples but those are the first that I remember offhand.

[JadedFalcon]

I believe the majority of equipment made in BT lasts significantly longer than what we're used to. The technology level of the SW did not degrade lower than the AoW era so the same basic standards of production were maintained implying that old relics could still be maintained. The worst of the worst would look like a mish-mash of parts (i.e. Franken 'Mechs) being held on by duct tape and glue if it came to it.

Precisely. Given the large numbers of introtech mechs in use into the early Republic era, I suspect there's a massive market for used and fixer-upper mechs. This market grows as house armies discard their old mechs or with non-domestic mechs they no longer wish to support. The industry would certainly date back to the 3rd SW, if not earlier. This also creates a secondary market for scavenging battlefields for usable mech components in addition to lostech and star league caches.

Acquiring mechs through mutinies and desertions is not unheard of. Hansen's Roughriders, are an example, along with all those SLDF units after the Amaris war.

Than there's debt financing! The FedSuns and Word of Blake have used it to retain or acquire contractors with a reliable history. I think there was a character in a Victor Milan short story that got their Locust that way.

8) http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58521.0;all

These two threads should probably be combined.

[massey]

Being a mechwarrior is one of the fastest ways to move up the socio-economic ladder.  You can go from dirty peasant to powerful noble within your lifetime if you can get a mech and do a good job.  That's not to say everybody does, but it's possible.

You'd probably have a whole lot of people who train to be a mechwarrior, even if they don't have a mech.  Think of it like being a professional athlete.  A bunch of inner city kids dream of being the next LeBron James, but most will never have that chance.  But there are guys who make it, and there are enough guys who make it to keep the high school sports programs fully stocked up.

I bet there are mech simulators on every planet.  And you have 13 year olds lining up with their quarters to sit down in the machine and practice blowing up a Rifleman.  Some of those kids are actually going to be good enough to Last Starfighter their way into a real mech school.  These guys are just hoping they manage to stumble into a battlemech.  Most of them won't.  Most of them will end up just another peasant on a nameless world.  But there's a percentage of them who are in the right place at the right time and manage to score a ride.

Some enemy mechwarrior thinks it's safe, so he stops and gets out of his Shadow Hawk to take a leak, and it just so happens that there's a sniper in the trees who used to be pretty good in the simulator, 20 years ago.  Now if he caps the guy and reports back to base, the local lord gets a shiny new mech.  But if he caps the guy and goes AWOL, now he's got a shot at the big time.  He gets a shiny new mech, and if there's a merc unit on planet, he's suddenly got a way off that rock.

You're probably not allowed to take your mech with you when you leave House service, not normally.  But I bet there are a lot of mechs that "fall off the back of trucks" or get "immobilized and captured by the enemy".  Now I doubt the opportunity to bolt with a mech comes up all the time, maybe only once or twice in a career (if ever).  But there's probably a sizeable percentage of people who are just waiting for that chance.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Aris Sung became a mechwarrior after successfully capturing a Stinger while he was a PBI.  The description made it sound like that was a standard reward.

Also, Battlemechs are fluffed as being absurdly easy to put back to work no matter what condition they're in: there's at least one description of some people taking a mech they found on their farm that had been sitting out, exposed to the elements for who knows how long, and they got it up and running by themselves.

[SCC]

Some enemy mechwarrior thinks it's safe, so he stops and gets out of his Shadow Hawk to take a leak, and it just so happens that there's a sniper in the trees who used to be pretty good in the simulator, 20 years ago.  Now if he caps the guy and reports back to base, the local lord gets a shiny new mech.  But if he caps the guy and goes AWOL, now he's got a shot at the big time.  He gets a shiny new mech, and if there's a merc unit on planet, he's suddenly got a way off that rock.

Not if you want to see your family ever again, and in the CC, DC and MH they likely pay for your actions with their lives.

You're probably not allowed to take your mech with you when you leave House service, not normally.  But I bet there are a lot of mechs that "fall off the back of trucks" or get "immobilized and captured by the enemy".  Now I doubt the opportunity to bolt with a mech comes up all the time, maybe only once or twice in a career (if ever).  But there's probably a sizeable percentage of people who are just waiting for that chance.

Not very many of them but.

[Iracundus]

Aris Sung became a mechwarrior after successfully capturing a Stinger while he was a PBI.  The description made it sound like that was a standard reward.

Also, Battlemechs are fluffed as being absurdly easy to put back to work no matter what condition they're in: there's at least one description of some people taking a mech they found on their farm that had been sitting out, exposed to the elements for who knows how long, and they got it up and running by themselves.

The ongoing maintenance is the issue.  Whichever version of the maintenance rules you use, they are quite intensive in terms of necessarily technical support personnel or man-hours.  There is also the issue of generic spare part costs.

Maintenance staff requirements depend on what system you use.  In Interstellar Operations and Campaign Operations, it costs 0.1% per ton of Mech in generic spare parts at a cost of 10,000 C-bills per ton of spare parts.  That means a 100 ton Mech costs 1,000 C-bills per month.  It would also cost the salaries of 1 team(1 Tech and 6 AsTechs) to maintain totaling 3,200 C-bills per month.  So in total 4,200 C-bills per month and 7 technical support staff for a 100 ton Mech. 

In Field Manual Mercenaries Revised , it is a weekly maintenance cost of 75 C-bills flat per Mech.  However maintenance is tracked by effective man-hours, with a 100 ton Mech needing 40 + tonnage/5, or 60 man-hours per week of maintenance.  However under these rules, 1 Tech needs 1 AsTech as assistant to perform at maximum efficiency, else they lose 15% productivity if working solo.  Together the 2 would generate 60 man-hours per week between them, just enough to maintain the 100 ton Mech, and their salaries would be 1,200 C-bills per month.  So under these rules, that Mech will cost 1,500 C-bills per month and 2 technical support staff.  Why this divergence?  Because newer rules track by Tech teams (composed of 1 Tech and 6 AsTechs) and 1 Mech needs 1 team, whereas the older rules used man-hours, and the number of man-hours produced depended on the skill level. 

The new rules effectively make the idea of the lone knight-errant Mechwarrior on the Periphery virtually impossible as by the new rules the Mechwarrior could count at best as 1 Tech (and just AsTech under combat), meaning there is not a full team of technical support making it necessary to roll for breakdown every month (with a +1 modifier for every month after the 1st).  Each failed roll resulting in 1d6-3 critical hits.  That could quickly render the Mech combat ineffective.

So the lone lucky person "acquiring" a Mech would need partners in crime or be able to quickly get to a place where they could hire tech support.

[Nuclear-Fridge]

"Not being allowed to take your 'Mech with you..."  ??? That all depends. Let's say it's just post-Clan Invasion, and you're a minor pilot in some House unit that's been cut to pieces by Clan Awesomeness. The only way you'd be allowed to walk with a 'Mech would be if it was a hopelessly outdated pile of junk that no-one can be bothered to upgrade, e.g. the Whitworth. Good luck on finding spare parts for it!

A more extreme example would be the Kuritan Charger, 3025 standard. "Go ahead. It's just taking up room in the hangar we could use for a brand-new Daikyu."

Now, of course, your wannabe 'Mech mercenary has themselves a ride, but it can be taken out by an electric golf cart. That would contribute to a lot of early-career "fails" in the mercenary trade...

[skiltao]

how could it have been possible for organized crime lords to have been able to put together a dozen regiments worth of battlmechs?

I remember pushing that idea waaaay back, in a discussion between (I think) JediBear and Nightward.

But the Ghost Regiment 'Mechs were supplied in a special deal with ComStar, and the largest corporations (on the order of Synguard or Matabushi) only sometimes have lances for security. What "crime lords" do you see having more than a handful of (mercenary) 'Mechs?

for one thing the social structures that made such gift-giving near mandatory no longer exist

How so? BattleTech's interstellar empires are too big for the Throneworld to rule directly, especially as travel and communication get harder with the onset of lostech. Rewarding loyal vassals with stuff ties them closer to you (emotionally and logistically) and inspires the greater masses to strive loyally for those rewards.

in the CC, DC and MH they likely pay for your actions with their lives.

Why would the CC, DC or MH punish one of their own infantrymen for capturing an enemy 'Mech?

Let's say it's just post-Clan Invasion, and you're a minor pilot in some House unit that's been cut to pieces by Clan Awesomeness. The only way you'd be allowed to walk with a 'Mech would be if it was a hopelessly outdated pile of junk that no-one can be bothered to upgrade

Of course, if your unit's been cut to pieces, there's no one to stop you from just walking off with your stuff either.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The ongoing maintenance is the issue.  Whichever version of the maintenance rules you use, they are quite intensive in terms of necessarily technical support personnel or man-hours.  There is also the issue of generic spare part costs.

Maintenance staff requirements depend on what system you use.  In Interstellar Operations and Campaign Operations, it costs 0.1% per ton of Mech in generic spare parts at a cost of 10,000 C-bills per ton of spare parts.  That means a 100 ton Mech costs 1,000 C-bills per month.  It would also cost the salaries of 1 team(1 Tech and 6 AsTechs) to maintain totaling 3,200 C-bills per month.  So in total 4,200 C-bills per month and 7 technical support staff for a 100 ton Mech. 

In Field Manual Mercenaries Revised , it is a weekly maintenance cost of 75 C-bills flat per Mech.  However maintenance is tracked by effective man-hours, with a 100 ton Mech needing 40 + tonnage/5, or 60 man-hours per week of maintenance.  However under these rules, 1 Tech needs 1 AsTech as assistant to perform at maximum efficiency, else they lose 15% productivity if working solo.  Together the 2 would generate 60 man-hours per week between them, just enough to maintain the 100 ton Mech, and their salaries would be 1,200 C-bills per month.  So under these rules, that Mech will cost 1,500 C-bills per month and 2 technical support staff.  Why this divergence?  Because newer rules track by Tech teams (composed of 1 Tech and 6 AsTechs) and 1 Mech needs 1 team, whereas the older rules used man-hours, and the number of man-hours produced depended on the skill level. 

The new rules effectively make the idea of the lone knight-errant Mechwarrior on the Periphery virtually impossible as by the new rules the Mechwarrior could count at best as 1 Tech (and just AsTech under combat), meaning there is not a full team of technical support making it necessary to roll for breakdown every month (with a +1 modifier for every month after the 1st).  Each failed roll resulting in 1d6-3 critical hits.  That could quickly render the Mech combat ineffective.

So the lone lucky person "acquiring" a Mech would need partners in crime or be able to quickly get to a place where they could hire tech support.

I think that what you're describing is a case of the rules being put in to provide a meaningful penalty on players rather than an attempt to accurately mirror the in-universe depictions.

[SCC]

How so? BattleTech's interstellar empires are too big for the Throneworld to rule directly, especially as travel and communication get harder with the onset of lostech. Rewarding loyal vassals with stuff ties them closer to you (emotionally and logistically) and inspires the greater masses to strive loyally for those rewards.

That and mandatory gift giving are two very different things

Why would the CC, DC or MH punish one of their own infantrymen for capturing an enemy 'Mech?

It's not for capturing the 'Mech, it's for running off with it.

[skiltao]

That and mandatory gift giving are two very different things

How so?

It's not for capturing the 'Mech, it's for running off with it.

The infantry guy has prize rights to the 'Mech, and might be happy enough to not desert.

[Kovax]

The infantry guy has prize rights to the 'Mech, and might be happy enough to not desert.

Depending on the laws of his faction, he might own the 'Mech outright or be rewarded with a month's salary and a cheap medal for its capture.  That's clearly enough of a range to make the difference between continuing his military career on a different track (or selling it to the House at a steep discount and still living well for the rest of his life) and going AWOL with the captured 'Mech, at least if there's someplace safe he can run to with high odds of getting there alive.

[SCC]

How so?

They just are.

The infantry guy has prize rights to the 'Mech, and might be happy enough to not desert.

Prize rights historically went to everyone withing view. In the case of our sniper it can easily be argued that everyone in the area contributed to keeping the 'Mech in the fight long enough that the MW couldn't take a leak in a secure area thus enabling the capture.

[massey]

Not if you want to see your family ever again, and in the CC, DC and MH they likely pay for your actions with their lives.

Nah.  Even assuming that those governments would do something like that (and I don't think it's a given), it's something our sniper is going to know and account for.

Your argument is the sniper knows not to run off because he knows what they'll do to his family.  So let's say that's the policy, and obviously our sniper knows about it (the policy doesn't do any good if nobody knows about it).  The problem for our oppressive governments is that it's a policy that is trivially easy to get around.

In our scenario, a lone infantryman catches an enemy mechwarrior outside of his mech, guns him down, and rides off into the sunset.  It is not difficult at all to add an extra step in there:  Place dead mechwarrior in your sniper position, blast with medium laser until well done.  As far as the Great House is concerned, their sniper died a hero's death in service to the state.  They find a charred body and some half-melted dog tags.  Looks like he's dead.

Do you think they launch formal investigations into every random joe infantryman who got killed by an enemy mech?  No.  Why would they suspect that it wasn't really him?  What makes them think that this time he actually stole the mech instead of getting killed by it?  Why would they think that?

[skiltao]

it can easily be argued that everyone in the area contributed to keeping the 'Mech in the fight long enough that the MW couldn't take a leak in a secure area thus enabling the capture.

You could just as well argue that the smell of grandma's apple pie baking on the windowsill is what made him feel the area was secure enough to take a leak. Where's the peasant grandma's share of the prize rights?

[Kidd]

I don't recall anywhere in the fiction or in the fluff that a "you keep what you kill" policy is in effect on the individual scale. In fact more often than not we see that the units bargain hard for salvage rights.

There are many mentions in the TROs of Mechwarriors being given Mechs as an award for extraordinary services or feats. But it seems that these are gratuities rather than rights.

Prize rights historically went to everyone withing view. In the case of our sniper it can easily be argued that everyone in the area contributed to keeping the 'Mech in the fight long enough that the MW couldn't take a leak in a secure area thus enabling the capture.

Correction: Prize rights in the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic wars went to every ship within view.

[SCC]

You could just as well argue that the smell of grandma's apple pie baking on the windowsill is what made him feel the area was secure enough to take a leak. Where's the peasant grandma's share of the prize rights?

If grandma is in a position to make such a claim she should clearly be committed.

I don't recall anywhere in the fiction or in the fluff that a "you keep what you kill" policy is in effect on the individual scale. In fact more often than not we see that the units bargain hard for salvage rights.

Oh, good point

Correction: Prize rights in the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic wars went to every ship within view.

Well yeah, but this is clearly based off that idea.

[Kidd]

Being a mechwarrior is one of the fastest ways to move up the socio-economic ladder.  You can go from dirty peasant to powerful noble within your lifetime if you can get a mech and do a good job.  That's not to say everybody does, but it's possible.

yup

I bet there are mech simulators on every planet.  And you have 13 year olds lining up with their quarters to sit down in the machine and practice blowing up a Rifleman.  Some of those kids are actually going to be good enough to Last Starfighter their way into a real mech school.  These guys are just hoping they manage to stumble into a battlemech.  Most of them won't.  Most of them will end up just another peasant on a nameless world.  But there's a percentage of them who are in the right place at the right time and manage to score a ride.

Last Starfighter game simulators, perhaps. Real training-standard simulators with neurohelmets, unlikely. Doesn't fit the overall crapsack-world aesthetic of Btech. But other than that, agreed.

The Draconis Combine, of all people, has the Osaka Proving Grounds where anybody can walk in and try their luck at military-grade simulators. Granted, if you fail an ISF background check - which a yak is unlikely to pass - you're still not going to be recruited. But as you say... it IS a great chance for upward social mobility, and in the 2nd least likely Successor State too!

Oh, good point
Well yeah, but this is clearly based off that idea.

But why?

But the Ghost Regiment 'Mechs were supplied in a special deal with ComStar, and the largest corporations (on the order of Synguard or Matabushi) only sometimes have lances for security. What "crime lords" do you see having more than a handful of (mercenary) 'Mechs?

Hachiman Taro :D okay that's an outlier, and in fact the novel showed exactly what happens when a vassal grows too powerful for the overlord's liking

Theodore tapped the yakuza for manpower and money. There were many Mech-qualifiable individuals who weren't previously allowed into the DCMS ranks, and the yak also recruited their people for armour, infantry, support personnel, etc. And we can infer that the money was not just for buying new Mechs, but also for all the other support costs that goes into running proper regiments.

The DCMS (and perhaps other Successor States) could have lots of Mech chasses just as the US has a boneyard full of older aircraft. What they probably lack is people and funding to pilot and properly support them with tanks, infantry, techs,
 logistics, etc.

[SCC]

But why?

I'm not getting your point here.

The DCMS (and perhaps other Successor States) could have lots of Mech chasses just as the US has a boneyard full of older aircraft. What they probably lack is people and funding to pilot and properly support them with tanks, infantry, techs, logistics, etc.

No, just NO! It's well established that there is a shortage of 'Mechs and this would violate that.

[Kidd]

I'm not getting your point here.

No, just NO! It's well established that there is a shortage of 'Mechs and this would violate that.

Why should the Napoleonic Wars-era Royal Navy's prize ruling, in particular, be applicable to Battletech? There is no evidence supporting it and plenty against.

Mechs are relatively rare, in the sense that each Successor State doesn't have more than around 12,000 in-service Mechs across about 400 worlds and  but there are confirmed hidden Mech stockpiles in BT - Comstar, the Fed Suns, Word of Blake and the Cap Con in the Dark Age era are four undisputable examples. Maybe they are "doomsday scenario" stockpiles - and indeed we could have seen each Successor State dip heavily into them during the Jihad, which explains why post-Jihad they took a long time to rearm and replenish.

So 1) its not unfeasible to imagine each Successor State having around 500-600 somewhat obsolete Mechs (only about 5% of total) tucked away somewhere for a rainy flooding day, and 2) its probable that the Draconis Combine dipped into its stockpile to form the Ghost Regiments.

By the way, the DCMS Night Stalkers, AFFS Chisholm's Raiders and FWL Romanov's Crusaders are better examples of units formed with privately-owned Mechs.

[skiltao]

The DCMS (and perhaps other Successor States) could have lots of Mech chasses just as the US has a boneyard full of older aircraft. What they probably lack is people and funding to pilot and properly support them with tanks, infantry, techs,
 logistics, etc.

I agree that idea is reasonable for the Star League, and the Pax Republica, but I have to agree with SCC that it's not congruent with the scavenger / meat-grinder periods in between.

By the way, the DCMS Night Stalkers, AFFS Chisholm's Raiders and FWL Romanov's Crusaders are better examples of units formed with privately-owned Mechs.

Y'know, given that the Night Stalkers were funded by rich members of the business world, and that Chisholm's Raiders are described as "rickety," and that both are light units which were formed from used 'Mechs, I think they're a fair sign of just how scarce 'Mechs are in the secondary market.

I don't recall anywhere in the fiction or in the fluff that a "you keep what you kill" policy is in effect on the individual scale. In fact more often than not we see that the units bargain hard for salvage rights.

It shows up in TR:3025. I'd expect it to show up in the Notable Warrior entries of later TROs too (though I don't know if it actually does). I've recently reread parts of the Warrior Trilogy, and I think I remember it also being mentioned offhand in dialogue there.

In any case, individual prize rights apply to how loot gets distributed within the unit. It's a separate issue from, and would occur after, accounting for whatever loot the unit as a whole is contractually obligated to pass on to other units.

If grandma is in a position to make such a claim she should clearly be committed.

Having multiple ships in sight could help intimidate an opposing ship into surrendering, or influence its maneuvering in a way which makes it easier to capture. If some MechWarrior tries to claim that they kept the enemy in the fight so long that enemy had to find somewhere safe to pee - which is to say, they contributed neither materially nor psychologically to the actual capture of the 'Mech - they should be committed right along with the grandma.

Edit: possibly you are misunderstanding the scenario. The MechWarrior isn't cracking his cockpit open in the middle of combat, he's gone off somewhere quiet away from the battle zone. "Safely away from the battle zone" *isn't* a crazy place to find grandmas. BattleMechs are fast and mobile; villages containing grandmas are not.

[Kit deSummersville]

More than one Merc unit was established when their house army abandoned them and left them to die and they went "screw this, we're going Merc".

[Kitsune413]

It also depends if you are playing high fantasy battletech or not. (Hi-sci-fi?)

You can put a battlemech back together unless its cored. Ammo explosions (With case) and falls can burn through pilots quick. Not to mention headshots. I've also thought Battletech rules are surprisingly silent when it comes to what happens to the pilot when a mech is cored. They would at the very least take falling damage right?

So you can go through pilots pretty fast...

Another big problem is money. So you're a starting out merc outfit. You do a mission. You lose. You had four mechs. You left two on the battlefield the enemy salvaged. Your remaining two mechs have holes in them. You don't have the money to fix it. Jared's dead. Lisa's been captured by house forces. Jeffrey, Jared's brother has post traumatic stress disorder.

Merc Unit finished.

I would honestly call that realistic battletech.

grim dark battletech... Jeffrey becomes homeless because he can't deal with it anymore. Sold what was left of his mech for passage back to his homeworld. The last mechwarrior, Jennifer, borrowed from Jeffrey for passage to the Periphery. Her mech was still busted so she threw in with a local pirate group. She did a good job terrorizing some outback worlds for food and a little money before a well placed Schrek PPC carrier ended her mech. She's dispossed now but still rolls with a pirate crew.

The good news is that the original mercenary raid wasn't against the Draconis Combine so Lisa wasn't executed.


Technically... All four mechs of the original Merc Unit are maybe still out there.

[SteelRaven]

So you can go through pilots pretty fast...

In game, it's easier to kill the mech than the pilot. Think I had to role edge twice over a year of a RP campaign. While writers love to depict Mechs as hot box death trap, the game mechanics show mechs do a great job keeping mechwarriors alive. 

[Kitsune413]

In game, it's easier to kill the mech than the pilot. Think I had to role edge twice over a year of a RP campaign. While writers love to depict Mechs as hot box death trap, the game mechanics show mechs do a great job keeping mechwarriors alive.

If you use the ATOW rules I think maybe you're slightly more survivable. I'm not sure.

I think it just depends on the mech class. If you're in a light mech then the light mech will give out before the pilot. If you're in an assault mech call the coroner.

[SCC]

Why should the Napoleonic Wars-era Royal Navy's prize ruling, in particular, be applicable to Battletech? There is no evidence supporting it and plenty against.

Mechs are relatively rare, in the sense that each Successor State doesn't have more than around 12,000 in-service Mechs across about 400 worlds and  but there are confirmed hidden Mech stockpiles in BT - Comstar, the Fed Suns, Word of Blake and the Cap Con in the Dark Age era are four undisputable examples. Maybe they are "doomsday scenario" stockpiles - and indeed we could have seen each Successor State dip heavily into them during the Jihad, which explains why post-Jihad they took a long time to rearm and replenish.

So 1) its not unfeasible to imagine each Successor State having around 500-600 somewhat obsolete Mechs (only about 5% of total) tucked away somewhere for a rainy flooding day, and 2) its probable that the Draconis Combine dipped into its stockpile to form the Ghost Regiments.

By the way, the DCMS Night Stalkers, AFFS Chisholm's Raiders and FWL Romanov's Crusaders are better examples of units formed with privately-owned Mechs.

Ah, OK then, that makes sense. But I think the reason that my mind, and likely other people's minds go to that set of rules is that it seems to be the ONLY time in history that there where actual rules dealing with captured equipment, at least that give anything to those that capture it (I think you'll modern US law will say that the state gets it and the soldiers get nothing)

Having multiple ships in sight could help intimidate an opposing ship into surrendering, or influence its maneuvering in a way which makes it easier to capture. If some MechWarrior tries to claim that they kept the enemy in the fight so long that enemy had to find somewhere safe to pee - which is to say, they contributed neither materially nor psychologically to the actual capture of the 'Mech - they should be committed right along with the grandma.

Edit: possibly you are misunderstanding the scenario. The MechWarrior isn't cracking his cockpit open in the middle of combat, he's gone off somewhere quiet away from the battle zone. "Safely away from the battle zone" *isn't* a crazy place to find grandmas. BattleMechs are fast and mobile; villages containing grandmas are not.

My argument here was that the reason he couldn't get back to base for whatever was because he'd been in combat too long.

[massey]

Perhaps I failed to explain the "bathroom break" scenario very well.  The idea is that a mechwarrior had been sent out on some kind of patrol mission.  Think Luke Skywalker at the beginning of Empire Strikes Back.  He's out scouting for the enemy, but all reports are that opposition forces are at least 100 miles away.  He's been out there for a few hours, he sees nothing.  So he stops for a pee break, gets out of the cockpit, smokes a cigarette, etc.  He thinks nobody is around for miles.

And then he gets shot in the face by some lone foot soldier with a rifle.  Just some guy who happened to be nearby, and probably hid behind a tree or something when he saw a Phoenix Hawk (or whatever) come stomping through.

Now it very well may take that infantryman half an hour to get over to the mech, strip the pilot of any useful gear, climb up to the cockpit, and figure out how to get it started.  During this time, he's very vulnerable and if somebody else comes along, he could lose his prize.  But let's say nobody does.  What do you do with it now?

Well a really patriotic guy returns to his unit and tells his commander that he's brought the Chancellor a gift.  A more selfish guy thinks about how he's going to keep this bad boy.

[Kitsune413]

Perhaps I failed to explain the "bathroom break" scenario very well.  The idea is that a mechwarrior had been sent out on some kind of patrol mission.  Think Luke Skywalker at the beginning of Empire Strikes Back.  He's out scouting for the enemy, but all reports are that opposition forces are at least 100 miles away.  He's been out there for a few hours, he sees nothing.  So he stops for a pee break, gets out of the cockpit, smokes a cigarette, etc.  He thinks nobody is around for miles.

And then he gets shot in the face by some lone foot soldier with a rifle.  Just some guy who happened to be nearby, and probably hid behind a tree or something when he saw a Phoenix Hawk (or whatever) come stomping through.

Now it very well may take that infantryman half an hour to get over to the mech, strip the pilot of any useful gear, climb up to the cockpit, and figure out how to get it started.  During this time, he's very vulnerable and if somebody else comes along, he could lose his prize.  But let's say nobody does.  What do you do with it now?

Well a really patriotic guy returns to his unit and tells his commander that he's brought the Chancellor a gift.  A more selfish guy thinks about how he's going to keep this bad boy.

It goes really badly for you in that situation I think.

I don't know that there is anything stopping the guy from jacking the mech. It might still be running while the guy goes to the bathroom. Other than that I can't imagine they are easy to operate. It's like a helicopter... the neurohelmet is tuned to the brainwaves of the guy you just geeked and if it falls over and you suck then you get mashed to bits in the cockpit.

But it wouldn't be easy to keep for himself. How would he get off world with it? If his unit moves out he can't just throw another mech on the dropship.

Assuming he is an enemy combatant. If he's just a guy in the woods with a rifle then he needs to have underworld contacts or access to a dropship to get it off world.

[Daryk]

Ah, OK then, that makes sense. But I think the reason that my mind, and likely other people's minds go to that set of rules is that it seems to be the ONLY time in history that there where actual rules dealing with captured equipment, at least that give anything to those that capture it (I think you'll modern US law will say that the state gets it and the soldiers get nothing)
*snip*

At least since 1965... that was the date on the instruction I saw posted a few years back regarding "war trophies".  I don't think it's on line anymore...

[massey]

It goes really badly for you in that situation I think.

I don't know that there is anything stopping the guy from jacking the mech. It might still be running while the guy goes to the bathroom. Other than that I can't imagine they are easy to operate. It's like a helicopter... the neurohelmet is tuned to the brainwaves of the guy you just geeked and if it falls over and you suck then you get mashed to bits in the cockpit.

But it wouldn't be easy to keep for himself. How would he get off world with it? If his unit moves out he can't just throw another mech on the dropship.

Assuming he is an enemy combatant. If he's just a guy in the woods with a rifle then he needs to have underworld contacts or access to a dropship to get it off world.

I think you can probably walk around in it without having it refigured for a new pilot.  I wouldn't want to do anything that actually required a piloting skill roll.  No running or jumping.

As far as getting offworld, well that's why you join a merc unit, right?  Ideally there's one nearing the end of its contract on your planet.  If not, I'd say you hide your new mech somewhere until there is a merc unit leaving.  Sometimes that may mean you wait a few years.  Sometimes it means your kid inherits the mech and he runs off and joins a merc company.

[SCC]

At least since 1965... that was the date on the instruction I saw posted a few years back regarding "war trophies".  I don't think it's on line anymore...

Evan earlier, there was a case in WW2 dealing with a German ship, US crew eventually got 'prize money' but only because her original German crew had scuttled her and the courts ruled that this meant that sea salvage laws applied.

[Daryk]

Sorry, I meant that the 1965 instruction basically banned war trophies...

[Daemion]

If you use the ATOW rules I think maybe you're slightly more survivable. I'm not sure.

I think it just depends on the mech class. If you're in a light mech then the light mech will give out before the pilot. If you're in an assault mech call the coroner.

Nope. I've played BT on a weekly or bi-weekly bases for the last 10 years, and pilot deaths are extremely rare. Vehicle crew deaths are far more common.

[Daemion]

But it wouldn't be easy to keep for himself. How would he get off world with it? If his unit moves out he can't just throw another mech on the dropship.

Assuming he is an enemy combatant. If he's just a guy in the woods with a rifle then he needs to have underworld contacts or access to a dropship to get it off world.

Why does he have to take it off-world? It's not too hard to go native, and almost every world seems to have enough population that there may be local concerns with their own Mech Security outfit, or local merc bands looking to hire.  Why does everything about the merc trade have to be interstellar in nature?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Why does he have to take it off-world? It's not too hard to go native, and almost every world seems to have enough population that there may be local concerns with their own Mech Security outfit, or local merc bands looking to hire.  Why does everything about the merc trade have to be interstellar in nature?

Because in that scenario, the House that controls said planet will probably look poorly on his desertion to attempt to go independent on one of their own planets.

[Kidd]

I agree that idea is reasonable for the Star League, and the Pax Republica, but I have to agree with SCC that it's not congruent with the scavenger / meat-grinder periods in between.

Especially during the meat-grinding periods as Mechs grew more valuable it would have become all the more pressing for Successor Lords to hoard a few Mechs rather than deploy them all.

Y'know, given that the Night Stalkers were funded by rich members of the business world, and that Chisholm's Raiders are described as "rickety," and that both are light units which were formed from used 'Mechs, I think they're a fair sign of just how scarce 'Mechs are in the secondary market.

The Stalkers were formed by vets who owned family Mechs, the Raiders were a verrry well-funded militia. Yup, but that they were formed at all indicates there IS a secondary market, a very small one.

It shows up in TR:3025. I'd expect it to show up in the Notable Warrior entries of later TROs too (though I don't know if it actually does). I've recently reread parts of the Warrior Trilogy, and I think I remember it also being mentioned offhand in dialogue there.

In any case, individual prize rights apply to how loot gets distributed within the unit. It's a separate issue from, and would occur after, accounting for whatever loot the unit as a whole is contractually obligated to pass on to other units.

Good distinction. But then that would be up to the unit commander, and I bet policies would vary significantly. Maybe Mechwarriors earn cash bounties on each confirmed kill they make, but the salvage is usually taken by the unit. Either way what we definitely don't see are where stories a Mechwarrior with 10 kills acquires 10 salvaged Mechs.

[Kovax]

Either way what we definitely don't see are where stories a Mechwarrior with 10 kills acquires 10 salvaged Mechs.

We see an occasional case where a MechWarrior gains a second 'Mech as salvage, but that's usually the extent of it.  An "ace" doesn't end up with a reinforced lance of salvaged 'Mechs.  If there's some bounty or reward for the kill, such as 1000 C-Bills, 10% of the remaining value, or whatever the faction deems a fair incentive to risk your life for, then the first kill MIGHT go to the victor (depending on faction rules) with the stipulation that he or she needs to pay back the rest of the value to the state over some period of time, or do service to the state (obviously easier to pay off as an "owner-operator" of a 'Mech than out of a foot soldier's paycheck) until the balance is considered "paid".

The rules almost certainly vary widely from House to House.

[skiltao]

My argument here was that the reason he couldn't get back to base for whatever was because he'd been in combat too long.

I know. I'm saying that's too distant from the acquisition of the prize to make a claim on the prize. Now, if the regiment which had kept him in combat was doing a lot of work that resulted in the infantryman's regiment getting a lot of easy prizes, maybe the infantryman's regiment would share some of those prizes with the other regiment. But that's a separate issue, and doesn't negate whatever prize rights the infantryman has.

Especially during the meat-grinding periods as Mechs grew more valuable it would have become all the more pressing for Successor Lords to hoard a few Mechs rather than deploy them all.

That sounds more like a staffed reserve unit, or a boneyard, than a unit decommissioned for hoarding.

The Stalkers were formed by vets who owned family Mechs, the Raiders were a verrry well-funded militia. Yup, but that they were formed at all indicates there IS a secondary market, a very small one.

The Stalker officers were retired vets, which means their family 'Mech was likely passed on to the next generation, and the rest of the unit was recruited from low-scoring academy grads who aren't guaranteed to have a family 'Mech. That said, it does seem likely that both groups would have had at least some family 'Mechs.

I can't find any references to Chisholm's Raiders being or not being well-funded.

Good distinction. But then that would be up to the unit commander, and I bet policies would vary significantly. Maybe Mechwarriors earn cash bounties on each confirmed kill they make, but the salvage is usually taken by the unit. Either way what we definitely don't see are where stories a Mechwarrior with 10 kills acquires 10 salvaged Mechs.

Maybe, but we don't see stories which rule out "I killed it solo, I keep it solo" either. The internal economics of a merc unit just doesn't get the spotlight very often; even more rarely for House units. Having one person in a unit own several 'Mechs is just another way of saying that some MechWarriors pilot 'Mechs that belong to someone else, and that not every 'Mech employed by a regiment is automatically owned by the regimental command - both of which we already know to be true.

[Kidd]

That sounds more like a staffed reserve unit, or a boneyard, than a unit decommissioned for hoarding.

...I was talking about a boneyard.

The Stalker officers were retired vets, which means their family 'Mech was likely passed on to the next generation, and the rest of the unit was recruited from low-scoring academy grads who aren't guaranteed to have a family 'Mech. That said, it does seem likely that both groups would have had at least some family 'Mechs.

No disagreement there. But to me the existence of family Mechs implies the existence of a secondary market for obtaining and servicing said Mechs, rather than state monopolies on Mech ownership.

I can't find any references to Chisholm's Raiders being or not being well-funded.

Just my conjecture that a militia that can afford a regiment of Mechs must be more well-funded than the average planetary militia.

Maybe, but we don't see stories which rule out "I killed it solo, I keep it solo" either. The internal economics of a merc unit just doesn't get the spotlight very often; even more rarely for House units. Having one person in a unit own several 'Mechs is just another way of saying that some MechWarriors pilot 'Mechs that belong to someone else, and that not every 'Mech employed by a regiment is automatically owned by the regimental command - both of which we already know to be true.

Most any behaviour can probably be found amongst merc and pirate units. I'm just talking about Successor State militaries.

We know these things to be true, and we know some examples where but it might be a bit of a leap to infer a widespread "you keep what you kill" policy - informally? possible. Cash bounty? also very probable considering the desirability of being a Mechwarrior. Keeping more than 1 Mech - especially given the scarcity of Mechs previously discussed - a little unlikely.

Edit: Since OP brought up the Royal Navy's prize rules - it might be pointed out that the procedure was to first offer the ships to the Royal Navy, who might decide to "buy into service" the ships; otherwise they (and their cargoes) would be auctioned - depending on the condition of the prizes they might only get scrap value. The crews did not get the physical goods, they received cash. Another reason why I think a cash bounty is more likely than Mech ownership.

[Daryk]

*snip*
Just my conjecture that a militia that can afford a regiment of Mechs must be more well-funded than the average planetary militia.
*snip*

Funny thing I've noticed working with Monbvol on his house rules and Campaign Ops.  Mech units are actually relatively cheaper to operate than vehicle or infantry based forces (for vehicles above 15 tons, at least).  Salaries end up being the biggest cost (just like the real world... who knew?).  Planetary militias need the numbers, though, as they end up with all kinds of other duties (e.g., disaster relief).

[Kidd]

Funny thing I've noticed working with Monbvol on his house rules and Campaign Ops.  Mech units are actually relatively cheaper to operate than vehicle or infantry based forces (for vehicles above 15 tons, at least).  Salaries end up being the biggest cost (just like the real world... who knew?).  Planetary militias need the numbers, though, as they end up with all kinds of other duties (e.g., disaster relief).

Support/technical costs aren't well-fleshed-out in the game. And there's the rarity factor, aside from cost. Sometimes Mechs just aren't for sale. Those who have them must be very well-connected, and usually if they are legitimate owners, that means well-heeled.

[The_Livewire]

Didn't Nelson Geist get his Battlemaster from Evil Santa while driving a House Owned P-Hawk?

[Daryk]

Campaign Ops (page 24) does a pretty good job of fleshing out the support and technical costs.  Basically, for a single 'Mech, you need the MechWarrior plus a full tech team (1 Tech, 6 AsTechs), then 0.1% of the mass of the 'Mech at 10,000 C-Bills per ton for monthly spare parts.  Finally, every unit consumes one-quarter of its ammunition capacity per month for proficiency.  Compare this to an infantry platoon (27 troopers plus one officer; and also one-fourth of a tech team), and you can see the costs will favor all but the most ammunition intensive 'Mechs (Crusaders, I'm looking at you).  Plus, the 'Mech (and tech team) needs one administrator, while the platoon needs three.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Didn't Nelson Geist get his Battlemaster from Evil Santa while driving a House Owned P-Hawk?

Yes.

[skiltao]

...I was talking about a boneyard.
<snip>
to me the existence of family Mechs implies the existence of a secondary market for obtaining and servicing said Mechs, rather than state monopolies on Mech ownership.

The secondary market seems to consist primarily of personnel leaving House service, horse-trading between regiments, gifts from a lord to his friends or vassals, and groups temporarily adrift after the breakup of their previous unit. [Edit: Also 'Mechs or other assets and services offered in payment, restitution or bribe (which may account for much of what other people would call "sales to mercenaries"). /Edit]

In real life, technological progress and peacetime demobilization can result in boneyards full of perfectly usable machines. But in BattleTech, in these particular eras, technology and peace don't line up that way. So when I said "boneyard" I meant a place for cannibalization and scavenging usable parts - not a long-term reserve suitable for reactivation.

Most any behaviour can probably be found amongst merc and pirate units. I'm just talking about Successor State militaries.

We know these things to be true, and we know some examples where but it might be a bit of a leap to infer a widespread "you keep what you kill" policy - informally? possible. Cash bounty? also very probable considering the desirability of being a Mechwarrior. Keeping more than 1 Mech - especially given the scarcity of Mechs previously discussed - a little unlikely.

Edit: Since OP brought up the Royal Navy's prize rules - it might be pointed out that the procedure was to first offer the ships to the Royal Navy, who might decide to "buy into service" the ships; otherwise they (and their cargoes) would be auctioned - depending on the condition of the prizes they might only get scrap value. The crews did not get the physical goods, they received cash. Another reason why I think a cash bounty is more likely than Mech ownership.

Royal navy practices aren't directly comparable because an individual crewman can't sail 1/80th of a ship, he can't take 1/80th of a ship with him to his next assignment, he can't repair or maintain or sell his 1/80th of a ship. A 'Mech, in contrast, can be owned and operated by a single person.

The "keep what you kill" policy seems to at least be a universal *baseline* among the feudal regiments in liege to the scavenger-society Houses. I agree that cash (or more likely, cash and a mix of parts and other goods) may be a common "buyout" and - as you suggested when you brought up mercenary salvage rights - other parties might have precedence. But how does "the desirability of being a MechWarrior" make a buyout more likely? 'Mechs are scarce, yes, but that fact only tells you that the "have nots" outnumber the "haves." It tells you nothing about how the "haves" distribute ownership amongst themselves.

[Kitsune413]

Nope. I've played BT on a weekly or bi-weekly bases for the last 10 years, and pilot deaths are extremely rare. Vehicle crew deaths are far more common.

Are you sticking to 3025?

LB-X autocannons, Case letting you not eject after an ammo explosion, gauss rifles, ppc's, anything that makes you fall...

I'm not saying everytime a mech goes down that the pilot dies. But if you're playing with 3145 tech the chances of a Mech being truly destroyed seem about the same as a pilot eating it. That isn't everytime a mech gets its engine shot out, its gyro shot out, or its leg blown off so surrender seems like a good deal.

In 3025 your pilots will probably survive though. If the mech takes an ammo crit the mech kicks him out of it. Unless he's a samurai... and the only thing that's going to knock your head off is an ac-20 and when someone brings an ac-20 people are on notice anyways.

Why does he have to take it off-world? It's not too hard to go native, and almost every world seems to have enough population that there may be local concerns with their own Mech Security outfit, or local merc bands looking to hire.  Why does everything about the merc trade have to be interstellar in nature?

Because unless he is working for the opposite faction he actually does have a, "Hey Mechwarrior Steve died out piloting his pheonix hawk, keep your eyes open for a pheonix hawk." problem.

and depending on whether you live on a forested planet or not having a two story war machine is really hard to hide... and unless the guys you took it from didn't win the planet the government is their government.

Also depending on what planet you are on merc units aren't incredibly common.

So despite what we've said about governments not caring that much to recover stolen war materials. We definitely didn't mean, "That you stole right now."

If you just took a battlemech right now then you need to get to Solaris or Outreach right now and figure out who the scummy guys are at the spaceport both leaving and entering those worlds.

[guardiandashi]

there is always the slow roll theft option as well.

basically you capture the mech, and hide it until the heat dies down.

if you get your hands on it, stash it in a silo, bunker, warehouse, etc. for a year or 10 then you find someone who can get (forge) you good enough "ownership" paperwork that the law is more on your side (if anyone asks) and you are good to go.

[Daemion]

Are you sticking to 3025?

Nope. We do mostly around 3067 with many units built off the percentages in FM:Updates. So, there are a few Basic Tech Mechs in the games along with lots of upgraded goodies.

Again. Even with LBX pellets and missile spam, head kills aren't that common.  Pilot kills in general are not that common.

[Daemion]

Also depending on what planet you are on merc units aren't incredibly common.

According to which book? I got the impression from the Field Manuals that there are all kinds of mercenary outfits which didn't make the cut for the Manual, but a lot of the ones which did are representative of many, many, many more.

Even the Touring the Stars doesn't go into detail about what's available for the merc trade.

And, every house FM mentions large amounts of forces, including Mech units not listed in the book. Again, there's a potentially large canvas to play on.

As slow as interstellar travel and trade seem to be, each planet can be a potential playground, without resorting to having to do a smash and grab off-shore.

[SCC]

Funny thing I've noticed working with Monbvol on his house rules and Campaign Ops.  Mech units are actually relatively cheaper to operate than vehicle or infantry based forces (for vehicles above 15 tons, at least).  Salaries end up being the biggest cost (just like the real world... who knew?).  Planetary militias need the numbers, though, as they end up with all kinds of other duties (e.g., disaster relief).

Support/technical costs aren't well-fleshed-out in the game. And there's the rarity factor, aside from cost. Sometimes Mechs just aren't for sale. Those who have them must be very well-connected, and usually if they are legitimate owners, that means well-heeled.

Yep, all things being equal the cost to maintain the 'Mech should range because of how economics works. But things aren't equal, the social conditions should really jack up MW salaries beyond where they should be and 'Mech Techs, which need more training, should require more pay (This doesn't account for their shortage before 3025)

And it just occurred to me the rules we have don't spell certain things out which will affect salaries, vehicle crew will be what, E1, E2, and E3? Well minimum rank for a MW if E6, so a MW salary will be $4,500 per month and a vehicle commander will be $1,800, tops.

[Daryk]

Monbvol and I have been working through those exact numbers.  The minimum ranks for a MechWarrior are either E-5 (AToW, page 124) or "O-0" (as outlined in the same table, and explained in the AToW Companion, page 28).  I like to think of O-0 as "Warrant Officer".  The monthly salary difference (per the Campaign Operations formula on page 25) is:

MechWarriors:
E-5: (5/3+1) x 1,500 = 4,000 C-Bills per month
O-0: (3/3+1) x 1.2 x 1,500 = 3,600 C-Bills per month
and for comparison:
O-1: (4/3+1) x 1.2 x 1,500 = 4,200 C-Bills per month

Vehicle Crew have a lower base, and could be lower ranked as well:
Vehicle Commander (E-5 per the table on page 24 of the Companion):
E-5: (5/3+1) x 900 = 2,400
Vehicle Crew (charitably interpreting the same table in the Companion, which says an E-2 can be a "Trooper"):
E-2: (2/3+1) x 900 = 1,500
And a Vehicle Lance Commander for comparison:
O-1: (4/3+1) x 1.2 x 900 = 2,520

So, a vehicle with two crew would cost 3,900 to man, while one with three crew would be 5,400, and four would be 6,900.

Infantry also has a lower base, but again, greater numbers:
Squad Leaders are E-5 as outlined in both AToW and the Companion tables:
E-5: (5/3+1) x 750 = 2,000
Troopers are E-2s as discussed above:
E-2: (2/3+1) x 750 = 1,250

But in a generic squad there are six troopers, so a squad would cost 9,500 in salaries.
Every four squads requires an officer:
O-1: (4/3+1) x 1.2 x 750 = 2,100

Now, here's the real trick.  Every 'mech and vehicle requires a tech team (1 Technician, 6 AsTechs, using the CampOps table):
Technicians have no guidance on rank, but I think E-4 is reasonable for a "Specialist":
E-4: (4/3+1) x 800 = 1,866
AsTechs also have no guidance, but like the Vehicle Crew, "Trooper" seems appropriate:
E-2: (2/3+1) x 400 = 666

So a 'mech Tech Team adds another 5,866 C-Bills per month in salaries.  Things get more complicated if you use the AToW table referenced by CampOps (AToW page 335 differentiates the various kinds of technician, but doesn't have a separate entry for AsTech, instead relying on a "Quality/Expertise" multiplier).  Infantry needs one Tech Team per four Platoons (CampOps, page 20).

[Kidd]

Holy thread necro Batman!

The secondary market seems to consist primarily of personnel leaving House service, horse-trading between regiments, gifts from a lord to his friends or vassals, and groups temporarily adrift after the breakup of their previous unit. [Edit: Also 'Mechs or other assets and services offered in payment, restitution or bribe (which may account for much of what other people would call "sales to mercenaries"). /Edit]

Corporate Mech forces also exist. So it seems that as long as you are influential enough you can do whatever... in keeping with BT neo-feudalism.

Then there's the "tertiary market" ie truly illegal Mechs and spares. Which I expect to be tiny.

In real life, technological progress and peacetime demobilization can result in boneyards full of perfectly usable machines. But in BattleTech, in these particular eras, technology and peace don't line up that way. So when I said "boneyard" I meant a place for cannibalization and scavenging usable parts - not a long-term reserve suitable for reactivation.

Well, why not? We know about the "magic warehouses" phenomenon... and again, as Mechs become more valuable, Successor States would hold a certain number in secret reserve, against the day when they can be one-eyed kings in the land of the blind. Or simply as a strategic "doomsday" reserve.

Royal navy practices aren't directly comparable because an individual crewman can't sail 1/80th of a ship, he can't take 1/80th of a ship with him to his next assignment, he can't repair or maintain or sell his 1/80th of a ship. A 'Mech, in contrast, can be owned and operated by a single person.

Operated, yes. But to support technically a Mechwarrior should still need a crew.

I don't wholly agree with the RN comparison myself, but there are certain similarities - both Age of Sail warships and Mechs would be considered capital military assets by the Govt and they would be somewhat loathe to let a private individual own many of them. (There were also similar numbers - from 400 rated ships in the 1790s to I think about 700 in the 1810s.) Yet at the same time, the Govts did allow some private ownership, by merchants, corporations, and privateers.

Politically, too, the State govt would prevent a Mechwarrior - especially a low-born one - from acquiring too many Mechs. Have a non-noble "ace" suddenly own 5 Mech chasses - ie 5% or more of a Successor State's federal Mech forces? That's too much firepower in the hands of one individual for the Powers That Be to accept.

The "keep what you kill" policy seems to at least be a universal *baseline* among the feudal regiments in liege to the scavenger-society Houses. I agree that cash (or more likely, cash and a mix of parts and other goods) may be a common "buyout" and - as you suggested when you brought up mercenary salvage rights - other parties might have precedence. But how does "the desirability of being a MechWarrior" make a buyout more likely? 'Mechs are scarce, yes, but that fact only tells you that the "have nots" outnumber the "haves." It tells you nothing about how the "haves" distribute ownership amongst themselves.

I was talking about "have nots" who want to be Mechwarriors in service to State militaries. Logically the position should come with cash and other benefits in kind, beyond mere prestige, to make people want to be Mechwarriors. Whereas to simply acquire ownership of another Mech (carcass) may not be perceived to be as valuable, because 1 man can't pilot 2 Mechs. Cash, at the end of the day, is the most fungible of benefits.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Politically, too, the State govt would prevent a Mechwarrior - especially a low-born one - from acquiring too many Mechs. Have a non-noble "ace" suddenly own 5 Mech chasses - ie 5% or more of a Successor State's federal Mech forces? That's too much firepower in the hands of one individual for the Powers That Be to accept.I was talking about "have nots" who want to be Mechwarriors in service to State militaries. Logically the position should come with cash and other benefits in kind, beyond mere prestige, to make people want to be Mechwarriors. Whereas to simply acquire ownership of another Mech (carcass) may not be perceived to be as valuable, because 1 man can't pilot 2 Mechs. Cash, at the end of the day, is the most fungible of benefits.

A mechwarrior who'd thus distinguished themselves would be likely to be made Baron of some small planet, too, elevating them to nobility.  Grayson Carlyle, for example.

[Kovax]

A mechwarrior who'd thus distinguished themselves would be likely to be made Baron of some small planet, too, elevating them to nobility.  Grayson Carlyle, for example.

A Barony might only consist of a single continent on a small planet, or less land than that.  Basically, it only needs to have sufficient surplus revenue to support the Baron and his military force.

[Kidd]

A mechwarrior who'd thus distinguished themselves would be likely to be made Baron of some small planet, too, elevating them to nobility.  Grayson Carlyle, for example.

IF s/he is of the right political mind. On the flipside, anybody espousing anti-establishment views - or simply someone who is "not one of us" - could be quickly bought out rather than elevated. Its neither far-fetched nor far removed from what we see in the corporate world...

Per Handbook House Davion, the lowest noble rank to hold a planetary (ie system) fief or equivalent is a Count. More commonly it would be a Marquess or Duke/Duchess. it is Barons and Knights who get smaller landholds/revenues.

[skiltao]

Well, why not? We know about the "magic warehouses" phenomenon... and again, as Mechs become more valuable, Successor States would hold a certain number in secret reserve, against the day when they can be one-eyed kings in the land of the blind. Or simply as a strategic "doomsday" reserve.

That day is here, and has been for hundreds of years. 'Mechs are needed on the front lines - I understand and agree with having a reserve, but why an inactive reserve instead of an active one?

Politically, too, the State govt would prevent a Mechwarrior - especially a low-born one - from acquiring too many Mechs. Have a non-noble "ace" suddenly own 5 Mech chasses - ie 5% or more of a Successor State's federal Mech forces?
<snip>
the position should come with cash and other benefits in kind, beyond mere prestige, to make people want to be Mechwarriors. Whereas to simply acquire ownership of another Mech (carcass) may not be perceived to be as valuable, because 1 man can't pilot 2 Mechs.

I don't follow your math here. The Federal force is only a single regiment strong? And sure, being awarded a 'Mech would include being placed in a regiment (and attaining whatever benefits are accorded members of that regiment), but remember we're talking feudal: one guy can't pilot 2 'Mechs, but that's what family and friends and loyal lackeys are for. Surely "MechWarrior Families" aren't confined to a single 'Mech per bloodline.