Author Topic: Buying suggestions requested  (Read 4241 times)

Greatclub

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Buying suggestions requested
« on: 05 February 2018, 08:27:15 »
I'm considering buying a medium star of omnimechs. I'm trying to narrow down my choices, and asking for thoughts shared. it's going to be part of a mech/elemental binary.

Ryoken - Getting one is a no-brainer. The question is whether to get two, something I'm leaning away from
nibori-nin - Almost more than the Ryoken, this is the heavy hitter of the bunch, but the slowest on the ground. Anyone got advice on left arm bits to make the mini modular to an A/B config?
grendel, shadowcat. Both pretty much fill the same role, somewhere between lightweight brawler and skirmisher. One's just a bit faster. I like the cat's mini better, but MASC makes me nervous
Crimson Langur - Heavy Speed freak. 7 walking means a good to hit mods for both me and my opponent (For opposite meaning of good in each case)
Arctic Wolf II - basically a lighter Crimson, it's cheaper in both BPV and c-bills - the latter can matter in campaign play.
Viper - The one I'm really leaning away from. The fastest of the bunch, it's also the weakest, and a bunch of the configs suck.

That is one fixed (a ryoken) and seven contenders for the last four spots. What do I eliminate?

Thoughts?

Specifically excluded - Fenris. Too expensive in c-bills for what it does. Again, in campaign & rpg play that matters.

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #1 on: 05 February 2018, 09:17:25 »
Any specific time frame or clan?

I wouldn't do the Arctic wolf. That is specifically a clan wolf in exile mech, and is a non-omni.

The cl wasn't made until 3065 in the homeworlds and was initially a mandrill/adder/cobra unit. So time and Clan would impact this.

How about a cougar? That is a solid light omni.



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Greatclub

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #2 on: 05 February 2018, 09:38:11 »
No specific clan or time-line; we're kinda loose on that, so long as the proper mini is present. We're a bit stricter when playing with proxies.

Arctic wolf isn't omni, but Arctic Wolf II is. Different mech with a really similar name, like the Thor II and Loki II

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arctic_Wolf_II

Cougar; it's slow for it's weight and not tough enough to survive being that slow. Also, at least the prime is badly under-sinked, despite having firepower comparable to the Nibori; reminds me of a rifleman.

finally, it's a light, not a medium
« Last Edit: 05 February 2018, 09:53:42 by Greatclub »

Kovax

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #3 on: 05 February 2018, 10:30:51 »
I took note of your comment about the Crimson Langur, and "good to hit odds for me an my opponent".  It's good for you, bad for him, because you only suffer the +1 for walking or +2 for running, while the opponent will suffer up to +3 for 7 movement or +4 for 10+ movement.  It's got the potential to be up by 2 points over its opponent on the to-hit modifiers, while a 3/5 movement unit can break even at absolute best.

If facing an opponent with Regular skills (4 gunnery, 5 piloting), that +3 or +4 makes a big difference in how much damage you'll likely take.  Speed=Armor.  If you're up against another Clan unit with better pilots (2 or 3 gunnery) and pulse weapons, then that extra speed difference will very likely not be enough to protect you.  At those to-hit numbers, only Armor=Armor.

Fast and lightly armed/armored units are highly conditional: either they're next to untouchable or else they're dead meat.

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #4 on: 05 February 2018, 12:09:13 »
No specific clan or time-line; we're kinda loose on that, so long as the proper mini is present. We're a bit stricter when playing with proxies.

Arctic wolf isn't omni, but Arctic Wolf II is. Different mech with a really similar name, like the Thor II and Loki II

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arctic_Wolf_II

Cougar; it's slow for it's weight and not tough enough to survive being that slow. Also, at least the prime is badly under-sinked, despite having firepower comparable to the Nibori; reminds me of a rifleman.

finally, it's a light, not a medium

Ahh right, Arctic Wolf II instead of Arctic Wolf 2 (Which is a variant of the first Arctic Wolf).  Darned clanners who don't know how to name mechs. AWLF2-O would be much better :)
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Greatclub

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #5 on: 08 February 2018, 20:40:19 »
I took note of your comment about the Crimson Langur, and "good to hit odds for me an my opponent".  It's good for you, bad for him, because you only suffer the +1 for walking or +2 for running, while the opponent will suffer up to +3 for 7 movement or +4 for 10+ movement.  It's got the potential to be up by 2 points over its opponent on the to-hit modifiers, while a 3/5 movement unit can break even at absolute best.

If facing an opponent with Regular skills (4 gunnery, 5 piloting), that +3 or +4 makes a big difference in how much damage you'll likely take.  Speed=Armor.  If you're up against another Clan unit with better pilots (2 or 3 gunnery) and pulse weapons, then that extra speed difference will very likely not be enough to protect you.  At those to-hit numbers, only Armor=Armor.

Fast and lightly armed/armored units are highly conditional: either they're next to untouchable or else they're dead meat.

Yeah, I have played the game since '91 and own an original rifleman IIC mini. I know why nobody plays light mechs anymore.

But the Crimson has max armor, and that speed will still cause a few accuracy-maxed shots to miss. It's more survivable than the nibori-nin, it just doesn't hit as hard.

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #6 on: 08 February 2018, 22:30:16 »
I'm considering buying a medium star of omnimechs. I'm trying to narrow down my choices, and asking for thoughts shared. it's going to be part of a mech/elemental binary.

Ryoken - Getting one is a no-brainer. The question is whether to get two, something I'm leaning away from
nibori-nin - Almost more than the Ryoken, this is the heavy hitter of the bunch, but the slowest on the ground. Anyone got advice on left arm bits to make the mini modular to an A/B config?
grendel, shadowcat. Both pretty much fill the same role, somewhere between lightweight brawler and skirmisher. One's just a bit faster. I like the cat's mini better, but MASC makes me nervous
Crimson Langur - Heavy Speed freak. 7 walking means a good to hit mods for both me and my opponent (For opposite meaning of good in each case)
Arctic Wolf II - basically a lighter Crimson, it's cheaper in both BPV and c-bills - the latter can matter in campaign play.
Viper - The one I'm really leaning away from. The fastest of the bunch, it's also the weakest, and a bunch of the configs suck.

That is one fixed (a ryoken) and seven contenders for the last four spots. What do I eliminate?

Thoughts?

Specifically excluded - Fenris. Too expensive in c-bills for what it does. Again, in campaign & rpg play that matters.


StormCrow-P
Huntsman-H
Nova-S
Grendel-D
Viper-B

If you can't harass, or flat out abuse, anything else on the battlefield with that star then your doing something wrong.  >:D
That's my opinion & I'm sticking with it.  ;)
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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #7 on: 08 February 2018, 22:44:32 »
The proper clan star and use of firepower:

Hellstar
Hellstar
Hellstar
Hellstar
Hunchback iic
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Greatclub

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #8 on: 08 February 2018, 23:01:27 »
The proper clan star and use of firepower:

Hellstar
Hellstar
Hellstar
Hellstar
Hunchback iic

No ability to haul elementals, 110,000,000 c-bills, 14,000 BPV, limited versatility, below-average mobility, no crit-seeking, and most importantly, so much cheesy spam nobody would play me

yeah, no.
« Last Edit: 08 February 2018, 23:14:31 by Greatclub »

Greatclub

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #9 on: 09 February 2018, 00:10:04 »

StormCrow-P
Huntsman-H
Nova-S
Grendel-D
Viper-B

If you can't harass, or flat out abuse, anything else on the battlefield with that star then your doing something wrong.  >:D
That's my opinion & I'm sticking with it.  ;)

That mostly matches what I was thinking.

I'm not fond of the Nova (It mounts an XL; FF and ES are minimal expenses after that) but I can't find an equivalent weapons/mobility load anywhere else. Class that as a solid maybe.

I'm also worried about the Dragonfly's durability; max armor and mobility aside, it's still a 40-tonner. The Grendel can at least take a gauss to the torso without penetration

worktroll

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #10 on: 09 February 2018, 00:11:56 »
Grendel is solid, and a great mini. Likewise the Nova - great flexible design.

Can I squeeze in a Mad Dog? It's iconic, the minis are great, it's got speed, and the C config is always worth it for groans.
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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #11 on: 09 February 2018, 00:34:25 »
I always recommend the Pouncer, it's more or less a Adder that hit the gym. 
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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #12 on: 09 February 2018, 00:52:55 »
The Hellion can be a fun mech when it's fielded with other fast mechs. Though the lack of jumpjets is a problem.

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #13 on: 09 February 2018, 01:29:22 »
So, you're looking at making a Nova?

That means all omni, so your Viper and Rifleman IIC are out, unless you're providing different transport options for your elementals and simply making two teams that aren't necessarily in the same force on paper.

Don't discount the Nova. In fact, its arm-only loads are great for carrying Elementals, because then it's not limiting firepower.

Something else to consider, team roles. You should look at your Star in the same light as any well-rounded RPG team, since you're never sure what you're bound to face. You already have good anti-infantry with the elementals, and mixing up each point's primary weapon isn't a bad idea.

I wouldn't be too afraid of something like a Mad Cat as your heavy anchor, or Mad Dog, as WT suggested. In fact, any of the early invasion omnis are pretty good choices. All clans have access to each one.

And, being omnis, don't be afraid to switch up loads between games, either.

If you're going for particular looks, I can't really help you.

But, if you're looking for teams,

a couple suggestions -

Thor as a mobile sniper and range hitter.
Fenris as a medium with speed.
Ryoken for its potential versatility
Nova for being a nova, and being everywhere.
Puma/Cougar for something light yet versatile, and survivable.

It's easy to go either all wolf or all falcon if you follow the old distribution observations in the original TR 3050.

You could keep things clan agnostic by swapping the Thor for a Mad Cat or Mad Dog and swap out the Cougar/Puma for a Kit Fox. The latter is glass-jawed, but has a solid swing. I thought there was a variant with a Large Pulse laser, but I'm not finding it. That might be the Puma.

When it comes right down to it, if you want anything fancier for the medium and light classes, you'll have to look to later books, of which I'm not all that familiar with.

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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #14 on: 09 February 2018, 01:39:23 »
Stooping Hawk for my two cents... as well as a Nova: Great machines.

But out of the originals offered: the Viper is a much better Fire Moth apparently though I haven't personally used either. But as battle taxis they are apparently the best.

Shadow Cat has some decent configs and remember you do not have to use the MASC.

Stormcrow: good machine... but two: IDK I might be persuaded to include a second in a Star with Elementals and just go the variants with the Ultra AC/20's

Greatclub

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #15 on: 09 February 2018, 03:46:53 »
Ryoken
Stooping Hawk (How did I miss this in my search for omnis? It's got good configs and the mini is great, excepting the AC.)
Huntsman
Grendel
Either Crimson Langur or Viper/Dragonfly. I'm still not enthused about the side torso armor of 13 on the Viper; Kovax is right that armor=armor post clan invasion. Although if it's carrying elementals that'll at least add some ablative protection :P

edit - does anyone know what bit is used for the missile variant on these Crimson Langur?
http://camospecs.com/Miniature/Details/1492/crimson-langur
http://camospecs.com/Miniature/Details/4259/crimson-langur
« Last Edit: 09 February 2018, 09:43:09 by Greatclub »

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #16 on: 10 February 2018, 12:07:15 »
Stooping Hawk (How did I miss this in my search for omnis? It's got good configs and the mini is great, excepting the AC.)
Because its incredibly rare & nearly unknown outside the Blood Spirits.
As a "gamer" its a great mech, but fluff wise its basically a failure with slow speed for its size & a lack of pod space.
Its not a typical clan weapons boat. 
Basically its the Crossbow/Battlecobra of 55 tonners..... which isn't something you brag about.

The list I gave was specifically avoiding the rare 1 off models that a single faction has access to, which is why I didn't list either the Hawk or the Langur.

As for the Nova, sure its a Huntsman w/o Endo Ferro so its going to have less guns, but, it also means in Fluff its able to be produced w/o Zero-G manufacturing & on the table top its cheaper by BV.
Its also available to everyone & the S model is one of the finest Urban Brawler/Pointman configurations in the game.

Viper has lower armor?   VIPER SHOULDN'T BE GETTING SHOT AT.    I jest, but really, if the Viper is someones target then it was moved very badly.  With everything else being slower the Viper is the mech that should ALWAYS get the best terrain & have the highest defensive mods & be in the worst arc for the enemy to hit.
Who cares about Armor when you are +5 DMM & at Long Range from everything sniping w/ an ERPPC while only being hitable on boxcars.
« Last Edit: 10 February 2018, 12:18:23 by Hellraiser »
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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #17 on: 10 February 2018, 12:16:00 »
Personally i love the viper, its one of those mechs people tend to underestimate at their own expense. Stooping hawk is pretty nice too.
 
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Greatclub

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #18 on: 11 February 2018, 17:14:28 »

Basically its the Crossbow/Battlecobra of 55 tonners..... which isn't something you brag about.
I have a Battlecobra, and I'll take it's prime over the Adder Prime any day. A is also good, and H looks decent.

Crossbow should be 60 or 55 tons; it's in that spot where it's engine gets bigger as fast as it does. As it is, the curse of the 65 ton omni is something only the Cauldron-Born partially escaped
Quote
As for the Nova, sure its a Huntsman w/o Endo Ferro so its going to have less guns, but, it also means in Fluff its able to be produced w/o Zero-G manufacturing & on the table top its cheaper by BV.
Its also available to everyone & the S model is one of the finest Urban Brawler/Pointman configurations in the game.
Have a Black Hawk Ku; Close enough it can stand for proxy, which is the big reason I've been dismissing it from the list. Sorry for not mentioning that.
Quote
Viper has lower armor?   VIPER SHOULDN'T BE GETTING SHOT AT.    I jest, but really, if the Viper is someones target then it was moved very badly.  With everything else being slower the Viper is the mech that should ALWAYS get the best terrain & have the highest defensive mods & be in the worst arc for the enemy to hit.
Who cares about Armor when you are +5 DMM & at Long Range from everything sniping w/ an ERPPC while only being hitable on boxcars.
Clan elite pilots, tarcomps and pulse lasers are things. Also other bug mechs. The ability to shrug off two medium pulse's would be nice.

Anyway, order was sent. Thanks for the help.
« Last Edit: 11 February 2018, 17:16:12 by Greatclub »

Colt Ward

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #19 on: 11 February 2018, 20:21:11 »
Might I suggest looking at IWM's Star box deals?  I got one with the-

Stormcrow (had bits for Prime & B IIRC, maybe more)
Hellion (be warned, detailed mini but it has some of the same problems as other lights at the time- SIE comes to mind)
Ice Ferret
Phantom

and it had the Snow Fox, though its not a Omni.  I want to say I got the Hell's Horses medium star.

As for the Adder . . . forget the Prime, the B & D are where its at as a Clan player.
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Greatclub

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #20 on: 11 February 2018, 22:48:11 »
Escorpion Imperio light/medium box. Phantom they got from their friends the wolves (Badly over-engined EW platform,) and I guess the hellion and icestorm came from absorbing the remains of the ice hellions.


But what is the Crimson Hawk doing in the wolf-in-exile star? Must have been a roundabout route from a isolationist homeworld clan in the '70s to an inner sphere exile clan?

Not that I really care, but at least my Stooping Hawk and Crimson Monkey are plausible in the inner sphere.

Colt Ward

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #21 on: 11 February 2018, 23:07:40 »
Stooping Hawk is in, one of my favorite medium mechs though I am hard pressed to use something besides the C . . . Crimson Langur is a stretch, but I love the mini and the mech in general.

Crimson Hawks were co-designed with the Diamond Sharks, or they took over part of the development program as a Trial- I forget which one atm.  But it was a design the Sharks brought to the IS and were selling during the Jihad- along with Ha Otoko, Mad Cat Mk II, Morrigu (another BS special), and a few others.
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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #22 on: 12 February 2018, 01:57:38 »
If I look at the original listing by the poster, I recommend Stormcrows and Shadow Cats with a Huntsman to back them up with heavier long ranged weaponds.  I found both the Mongrel and Crimson Langur to be too lightly armed for their tonnage because they sink too much into their engines with the 7/11 speed band and for the Mongrel jump jets too.  Tried them many times and found them lacking.  Never found myself wanting with the other 3 above; always performed well, even against heavier opponents. Just my experience anyway.
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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #23 on: 12 February 2018, 08:26:02 »
To be fair... the Stooping Hawk shows up on the Ghost Bear RAT's for 3067 (queue discussion over RAT's)

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #24 on: 16 February 2018, 20:34:33 »
Crossbow should be 60 or 55 tons; it's in that spot where it's engine gets bigger as fast as it does. As it is, the curse of the 65 ton omni is something only the Cauldron-Born partially escaped
I'm more of the opinion that the X-Bow should have just stuck to a 4/6 Movement curve and had more pod space.
It would have been a bit of a simple pocket assault that stayed easy to produce using no advanced structural components and would have had a better flavor in that early mix of all 5/8 Omni's.
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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #25 on: 16 February 2018, 20:42:33 »
Stooping Hawk is in, one of my favorite medium mechs though I am hard pressed to use something besides the C

The A is usable, if uninspired. I've had a lot of fun with the F.

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Greatclub

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #26 on: 26 February 2018, 03:52:34 »
I'm more of the opinion that the X-Bow should have just stuck to a 4/6 Movement curve and had more pod space.
It would have been a bit of a simple pocket assault that stayed easy to produce using no advanced structural components and would have had a better flavor in that early mix of all 5/8 Omni's.

It I were to make the crossbow II, it would be 60 tons, have an XL, and move 6/9/0.

Seriously, there are two 6/9 omnis in the 65 ton range (Where there should be none) and no 6/9 omni 60-tonner. I know that the Stormcrow nearly fills that slot, but I would have expected some Vulture upgrade or another to get a bigger engine at some point.

-----

I found somebody's 90's battletech minis in a local game shop secondhand; picked them up fairly cheap. Bunch of unseen plastics, assorted 3055 heavies and assaults (Guess the guy didn't see the point of lights and mediums) and some heavy and assault omnimechs. Vulture, Hellbringer, two Thor, two MadCat, Two Gargoyle, Two Dashi. So I basically have a heavy star too, even if it might not be the one I would buy for myself.


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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #27 on: 26 February 2018, 10:30:36 »
Hodgepodge lots are how a lot of collections start. Mine began with a set of PlasTech minis and the castoff TRO 3060 stuff on clearance at my FLGS

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #28 on: 26 February 2018, 19:48:02 »
It I were to make the crossbow II, it would be 60 tons, have an XL, and move 6/9/0.

Seriously, there are two 6/9 omnis in the 65 ton range (Where there should be none) and no 6/9 omni 60-tonner. I know that the Stormcrow nearly fills that slot, but I would have expected some Vulture upgrade or another to get a bigger engine at some point.

-----

I found somebody's 90's battletech minis in a local game shop secondhand; picked them up fairly cheap. Bunch of unseen plastics, assorted 3055 heavies and assaults (Guess the guy didn't see the point of lights and mediums) and some heavy and assault omnimechs. Vulture, Hellbringer, two Thor, two MadCat, Two Gargoyle, Two Dashi. So I basically have a heavy star too, even if it might not be the one I would buy for myself.

Agreed only I would have made the MadDog into a 6/9(12)/0 omni instead of the typical 5/8/0
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Greatclub

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Re: Buying suggestions requested
« Reply #29 on: 10 March 2018, 05:17:50 »
OK, one of the minis I got in that lot is superficially a madcat. I say superficially because it's cast in one piece, the detail sucks, and it's made of cheap green plastic with a 'china' stamp on the bottom of one foot.

Does anyone know if this was in any way official, or what the origin is?