Author Topic: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?  (Read 18239 times)

Bosefius

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #30 on: 08 March 2018, 15:02:06 »
It would be nice for a official unit builder for CBT. I loved the HeavyMetal programs it would be nice to see something like that again.

Catalyst has had the rights to create a unit builder for several years. We have had little interest in response.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48296.0
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Alsadius

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #31 on: 08 March 2018, 15:15:44 »
Catalyst has had the rights to create a unit builder for several years. We have had little interest in response.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48296.0

I am almost certainly biting off more than I can chew here, but I'll bite anyway. Do I understand you correctly that the problem is a lack of interest on the programmer side? And if so, what would be involved in becoming the programmer? Broad strokes only for now, and PM me if you like. I've had a couple projects kicking around the back of my head for a while related to coding BT utility programs, but I didn't realize this gap existed.

Edit: For anyone else who may be interested, this is the discussion thread referenced in the above post.
« Last Edit: 08 March 2018, 15:18:10 by Alsadius »

snewsom2997

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #32 on: 08 March 2018, 15:31:00 »
Catalyst has had the rights to create a unit builder for several years. We have had little interest in response.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48296.0

Well it was buried in the Computer Console Game Forum, try putting it up on the Main Page of the forums, where people may actually see it.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #33 on: 08 March 2018, 16:08:33 »
I am almost certainly biting off more than I can chew here, but I'll bite anyway. Do I understand you correctly that the problem is a lack of interest on the programmer side? And if so, what would be involved in becoming the programmer? Broad strokes only for now, and PM me if you like. I've had a couple projects kicking around the back of my head for a while related to coding BT utility programs, but I didn't realize this gap existed.

Edit: For anyone else who may be interested, this is the discussion thread referenced in the above post.

Honestly, they want MegaMekLab (or SSW), but MML (and SSW) isn't something they can own.
CGL isn't a software development company.  They don't know a thing about developing software. They can't tell you how they want it developed. But obviously many fans have done it on their own, without CGL. (Heavy Metal, MML, SSW are just a few.)  So they figured they could ask and see if somebody was interested in doing it officially.
Note that the request came while Herb was still Line Developer.  I have no idea of the current TPTB's thoughts/desires with regards to software.  My guess would be back to "CGL isn't a software development company" and they're trying to get back to a solid focus for BattleTech (box sets) not on software.  Not that they would be against it, but they have no time to deal with it.

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Alsadius

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #34 on: 08 March 2018, 16:14:31 »
Honestly, they want MegaMekLab (or SSW), but MML (and SSW) isn't something they can own.
CGL isn't a software development company.  They don't know a thing about developing software. They can't tell you how they want it developed. But obviously many fans have done it on their own, without CGL. (Heavy Metal, MML, SSW are just a few.)  So they figured they could ask and see if somebody was interested in doing it officially.
Note that the request came while Herb was still Line Developer.  I have no idea of the current TPTB's thoughts/desires with regards to software.  My guess would be back to "CGL isn't a software development company" and they're trying to get back to a solid focus for BattleTech (box sets) not on software.  Not that they would be against it, but they have no time to deal with it.

I understand that. I'm asking because I may want to code it. No software dev on their part, just licensing and a sales channel. I know there's a lot of potential roadblocks before any such project could see the light of day(both on Catalyst's side and on mine), but it's piqued my interest enough that I want to look into it a bit.

pheonixstorm

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #35 on: 08 March 2018, 18:36:26 »
It is a daunting task even software companies don't want to touch iirc from past posts from cons.

I have been interested since that post landed but I don't know if the pay is worth the headache. Granted I never heard back on what they were willing to offer...

Nightlord01

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #36 on: 09 March 2018, 05:51:11 »
It is a daunting task even software companies don't want to touch iirc from past posts from cons.

I have been interested since that post landed but I don't know if the pay is worth the headache. Granted I never heard back on what they were willing to offer...

Not that daunting a task, it's just a task that would have a poor return. Enthusiasts did several different programs to run it as far back as the early/mid 90s, including printing record sheets, having hit location tables, you name it. If an enthusiast can do that, it's not a daunting task technically, but I have no doubt there would be a relatively poor RoI, and most importantly, they'd still be unusable at ranked Cons.

I've been hoping that BT would move into the electronic age, but there's been substantial reluctance on the Devs part. Having things like dice rollers and all tables built in would mean you could simply add the range, movement mod and select your weapons and a tablet could tell you where you hit and how much damage was done. There's lots of ways it could be used.

snewsom2997

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #37 on: 09 March 2018, 09:31:33 »
At one point in time for a Programming Project in college I did build a Mech Construction Program using the Level 1 rules ion C, It isn't that difficult, the problem is organizing all the weapons equipment, costs, BV in tables/arrays, which has only been compounded by the large amount of weapons/equipment, and the fact we have over a dozen types of units, many with their own unique weapons and equipment tables that has been added over the years. It is still just a database exercise, all be it one where one has to reference over a thousand pages of rules and errata, with some drop downs, select lists.

The hardest part would be the GUI and graphical representation of the armor diagram and the equipment. Being only C I didn't have to go that far.

I'd Start with Mechs, then do Combat Vehicles, then ASFs, Battle Armor, Infantry, Dropships/Small Craft, Jumpships/Warships, Finally Support Vehicles/Mobile Structures and Buildings.

If the Heavy Metal Code is available, It has all stuff more or less, would be a good starting point. However lots of the Post Jihad Era equipment has funky rules that would have to be accounted for, AES, Turrets, Blue Shield Particle Dampeners, C3i, Nova CEWS, but I think the Basics from the Old MaxTech book are in there.

Maybe use a software as a service model, put the construction tool up with the MUL, pay a few bucks and get access with the ability to print out the record sheets for all the MUL mechs.

nckestrel

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #38 on: 09 March 2018, 10:18:45 »
If the Heavy Metal Code is available,

It's not.
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Alex Keller

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #39 on: 09 March 2018, 12:54:57 »
Get me an interactive electronic record sheet that I can use on a tablet or mobile device and I'll be back playing Battletech as my primary game. I hate lugging around my binders of record sheets. Who else has binders of record sheets? I got at least 5 of them and they're the 4" ones.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #40 on: 09 March 2018, 13:31:08 »
Just wanted to be clear about requirements. They are laid out on the solicitation post, but any software for making sheets officially needs to support:

1) All current rules, including up to experimental equipment
2) Record sheets for all current units

Those two alone are very difficult. You can somewhat solve #2 if you import everything from MMlab, but you'll need to at least write a converter.

#1 is a hard one to get everything for launch.
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Alsadius

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #41 on: 09 March 2018, 13:36:50 »
Just wanted to be clear about requirements. They are laid out on the solicitation post, but any software for making sheets officially needs to support:

1) All current rules, including up to experimental equipment
2) Record sheets for all current units

Those two alone are very difficult. You can somewhat solve #2 if you import everything from MMlab, but you'll need to at least write a converter.

#1 is a hard one to get everything for launch.

Where are they laid out, sorry? Those are both eminently logical features to include, but I don't see those requirements explicitly stated in either of the threads linked above. Am I missing a thread?

Luciora

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #42 on: 09 March 2018, 13:45:24 »

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48296.0

Where are they laid out, sorry? Those are both eminently logical features to include, but I don't see those requirements explicitly stated in either of the threads linked above. Am I missing a thread?

Alsadius

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #43 on: 09 March 2018, 13:53:24 »
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48296.0

The closest I can see there is:

> they are looking for a fully developed unit designer program, or at least mostly developed.

That isn't the same thing.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #44 on: 09 March 2018, 15:58:32 »
It was in an old discussion back when that was posted. Loong time ago.
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elf25s

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #45 on: 09 March 2018, 17:57:04 »
about 15 years back i came across mech builder that used a record sheet diagram to build your mech, for life of me i dont remember where and i never dl a copy.
to insert something in a spot it used drop down menu for items once done you validated the design if it was no good you went back and edit the design. it could print out also.
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Bedwyr

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #46 on: 09 March 2018, 18:31:25 »
This is starting to make me think about the ability of a possible tablet app to ingest XML-ified record sheet data and displaying it for filling out.
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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #47 on: 09 March 2018, 19:05:45 »
I figure I have about six more years before I can retire... if no one's done it by then, I expect I'll finally have the time.  And I'll definitely be looking for that SSW code to start with.  I really like their UI.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #48 on: 09 March 2018, 19:11:12 »

Isn’t there an online designer that’s pretty good as well?

Remlab is probably what you are thinking of

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #49 on: 09 March 2018, 20:33:24 »
I was unaware of remlab. Will have to check it out

I was actually thinking of the tool over at mordel.net

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #50 on: 10 March 2018, 00:26:57 »
Catalyst has had the rights to create a unit builder for several years. We have had little interest in response.

CGL wants someone to do a job worth tens of thousands of dollars for free, without any guarantee that she would get paid. That's offensive at best! No wonder you had little interest in this project

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #51 on: 10 March 2018, 01:36:02 »
CGL wants someone to do a job worth tens of thousands of dollars for free, without any guarantee that she would get paid. That's offensive at best! No wonder you had little interest in this project

Except that fans have done it before. Many times. CGL would just like to catch the next person willing to do it before they begin. As for "a job worth tens of thousands of dollars," have you seen the Master Unit List?
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Nightlord01

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #52 on: 10 March 2018, 01:38:27 »
Just wanted to be clear about requirements. They are laid out on the solicitation post, but any software for making sheets officially needs to support:

1) All current rules, including up to experimental equipment
2) Record sheets for all current units

Those two alone are very difficult. You can somewhat solve #2 if you import everything from MMlab, but you'll need to at least write a converter.

#1 is a hard one to get everything for launch.

Yeah, because there's programs that can simulate real life physics effects, and a ruleset with finite, well known principles is so hard. I'm sorry, I don't believe that for a second.

I would posit that CGL is simply unwilling to, or can't afford to, pay the cost of properly developed software.

CGL wants someone to do a job worth tens of thousands of dollars for free, without any guarantee that she would get paid. That's offensive at best! No wonder you had little interest in this project

Not sure they weren't willing to pay for it, they just wanted a vendor product, not a new employee.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #53 on: 10 March 2018, 08:43:09 »
that was my take on it too. Someone they could provide the official license to and work with to help them sell it.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #54 on: 12 March 2018, 18:19:28 »
I don't think another official tool is going to happen as long as the free, open source ones are still a thing.  They do the job very well.  When MML can finally do the rest of the large craft, I can't see myself using HMA anymore.
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Nightlord01

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #55 on: 13 March 2018, 04:53:49 »
I don't think another official tool is going to happen as long as the free, open source ones are still a thing.  They do the job very well.  When MML can finally do the rest of the large craft, I can't see myself using HMA anymore.

I think you are correct in your assumption, but not the condition. CGL is not going to commission another official tool, period. It wouldn't matter if SSK and MML were shutdown voluntarily, I simply don't think the Devs feel that it is of value, which is a pity.

The HM series was developed in the time of intense competition, you virtually couldn't turn around without stumbling over a free mech or veh designer. Everything from simple spreadsheets with special print functions to complex UIs that were roughly equivalent to the HM series. This could happen again, by the Devs actually committing to the idea, and devoting resources to it, which they are clearly unwilling to do. If you are serious about crafting a digital tool, you don't ask the community that plays the game, you ask a software developer! The Devs are willing to accept maybe someones tool that's been fan generated but clearly not interested in making this an actual business decision and commitment.

The biggest issue facing the development of a digital tool is demand, BT is the tightwads game, to put it bluntly. You can play the game with bottletops, lego men, whatever, you just need the rules and map sheets. So, where does the issue lie here? Simple, it lies with an inability to read the market and an unwillingness to accept risk, namely that those notorious tightwads will once again pucker up even after all those resources were invested. Development of good, robust, usable and most importantly, unique digital tool set would likely bring a new player base into the game, an automated play system, where you still moved Battlemechs around the map sheets, under the view of a tablet camera, selected your attacks on the tablet and had all of those attacks resolved automatically would make the game far faster paced, without sacrificing granularity. Having two tablets on either side of the table, blutooth linked, would allow them to share data and automatically send information back and forth, meaning the only issue the player needed to think about is tactical moves and selecting attacks in a handy screen on the tablet. That would be an interesting time to be a fan!

If you think my diatribe is unfair, I will point you to the currently displayed Battlecorps site under the heading of fiction, a site that has been closed for some time. The lack of timeliness regarding the updates in the HM series, all the while it was advertised on this very website as the official tool for Battletech design! These are not petty points, they point directly to the idea that the Devs are unwilling or disinterested in moving into the digital space.

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #56 on: 13 March 2018, 05:18:47 »
Any official digital tools would have to be licensed through Microsoft due to the IP split at the end of the century, no?

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Nightlord01

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #57 on: 13 March 2018, 05:49:53 »
Any official digital tools would have to be licensed through Microsoft due to the IP split at the end of the century, no?

This is a touchy area, as I understand it it's not truly laid down as Microsoft holds rights to all entertainment, but not necessarily all rights to BT software.

You'd need a contract lawyer, with access to the contract, to actually answer that, but I never saw any MicroSoft emblems on my HMP.

As an aside, this doesn't change anything, even if MicroSoft do indeed hold the rights, since it's just another license, potentially with royalties to be paid. As I said, it's a business decision, one which I think is damned more by the fact that the player base is likely not big enough to purchase commercially significant amounts of the product.
« Last Edit: 13 March 2018, 06:04:41 by Nightlord01 »

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #58 on: 13 March 2018, 10:36:05 »
For the sake of accuracy, from the heavy metal about page.

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Microsoft has control of all electronic and digital representations of BattleTech. HeavyMetal Software licensing had to be updated to exist in this new world. Well, that has now been done. This agreement with Microsoft allows HeavyMetal software to be developed and marketed.

I’m not going to disagree with the sales aspect. Hell, it’s questionable whether they’re selling enough of the actual game product evidenced by an eight month in any new material drought and what appears to be a refocusing of the line on the basics

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Re: What happened to the Solaris Skunk Werks?
« Reply #59 on: 13 March 2018, 12:50:28 »
Hell, it’s questionable whether they’re selling enough of the actual game product evidenced by an eight month in any new material drought and what appears to be a refocusing of the line on the basics

The Introductory Box set was out of print, and they could not print more (costs have increased substantially since it was printed, and it was already a loss leader with 0 profit).  So they had to come out with new intro boxes.

This time they are building a proper line that can be sustainable though.

Also, CGL had a fair amount of funds last year tied up in Dragonfire, which has been selling well, and funding the production of these new battletech boxes. (CGL is a small company and can only afford a certain amount of capital to be tied up in production, so often has to make choices)
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