Torso cockpit worth it?

[Crimson Dawn]

SO reading up on some mechs some have torso cockpits and I was wondering if they are worth it?  I ask because while now they get protected by the much higher armor and thus eliminate the lucky shot from a high damage weapon of the center torso but it also gets hit a lot more. 

So does the extra armor make it worth it or are you just making yourself more likely to die despite the extra protection?

[Fat Guy]

The +1 modifier to all piloting skill rolls alone makes it not worth it.

Also, if playing any type of campaign the inability to eject makes it a deal breaker.

[Empyrus]

Pilot skill penalty is not a real problem in itself IMO. Of course, i find small cockpits perfectly acceptable as well. (What i don't like is compounding penalties, like having both torso cockpit and hardened armor like the Stalker II has. Either/or is fine, both not.)
But combined with the fact the torso cockpit weights more, is very dependent on sensors, and that through armor critical can now kill your pilot instantly (though headshots are actually more probable all in all), torso cockpits aren't great.
They work, certainly, i have no problems using a 'Mech with one, but frankly i don't see much point in modifying any 'Mech to have one.

If you build a 'Mech with torso cockpit, then you need to take advantage of the freed space in the head, and use it for ammo storage or a head turret. As ammo storage, the head is weird as ammo explosions in the head don't actually transfer anywhere (feedback happens still though), so you can save weight by not having any CASE systems onboard.

[ANS Kamas P81]

With the way the classic Thunderbolt looks, I wonder if that should have a torso cockpit and put the LRM15 in the head...

[Sartris]

they're not awesome. i guess they're a solution if you're overly paranoid about headshots, but vulnerable in different ways detailed above - i've seen pilots buy it both via TACs and ammo explosions.

[SteelRaven]

Torso mounted cockpits are only really useful if your playing a RP campaign and invested in keeping the pilot alive vs fighting to the death. (This, of course means retreating when the torso armor gets breach) Standard cockpits work well enough, it takes ether a big gun or a lucky shot to kill a mechwarrior with a single shot to the face... then again, I play weekly games with a man who scores a head shot at least once a game.     

[grimlock1]

The +1 modifier to all piloting skill rolls alone makes it not worth it.

Also, if playing any type of campaign the inability to eject makes it a deal breaker.

I'm guessing hardened armor, small cockpits, modular armor are also show stoppers for you.

[Luciora]

The VRPP (Virtual Reality Piloting Pod) and DNI (Direct Neural Interface) interfaces would have negated the penalties per the write-up in Unbound.  Sadly only the DNI got developed into the VDNI system with all the drawbacks.  The VRPP would have been the best thing overall with minor penalties without training.

[grimlock1]

The VRPP (Virtual Reality Piloting Pod) and DNI (Direct Neural Interface) interfaces would have negated the penalties per the write-up in Unbound.  Sadly only the DNI got developed into the VDNI system with all the drawbacks.  The VRPP would have been the best thing overall with minor penalties without training.

I would agree but I think VRPP's were too heavily nerfed in IO to make them a good deal.  Even with ECCM rules, all it takes is for some punk with a Guardian to stand 6 hexes away, and you're looking at +3 to piloting and +2 to gunnery.  If you don't have ECCM, you can't use any weapons.

It's not just enemies with ECM.  There are plenty of ways to screw with a VRPP from a distance. Granted iNarc ECM pods are basically hen's teeth but Tasers, TSEMPs, iATM's mag pulse ammo, EMP landmines, and mag pulse missiles are all out there.  True, all these things can mess with target they hit, but the effects on a VRPP are a lot more severe.

I'd have to ask an expert but depending on how you read the section in IO, a VRPP might be vulnerable to friendly or even it's own ECM...

[Fat Guy]

I'm guessing hardened armor, small cockpits, modular armor are also show stoppers for you.

Actually yes.

[Crimson Dawn]

Not looking good so far.

How about armored engine or a compact engine?  Is one much better than the other.

[Liam's Ghost]

I find Torso cockpits work best on heavier mechs, IF you know when to walk away from a fight. Statistically speaking, the tougher your mech is, the more likely it'll get its head shot off (more shots equals more chances to hit the head). With a standard cockpit, the mech's out. With a torso cockpit, the mech can withdraw from the field, and thus is more likely to be repaired and ready for the next fight even if you don't win the battle.

Lighter machines are much less likely to benefit from this, and you're much more likely to kill the pilot stuffing them in one (once again, they can take fewer hits, so it's less likely they'll take a head shot and more likely to get their torso shot out first).

If you're not playing a game where withdrawing intact is a concern (like just an ordinary pickup game that isn't part of a campaign), then you probably won't get a lot of use out of it. The sensors are still in the head, so getting it shot off is still pretty crippling. 

The piloting skill penalty is annoying, but not fatal. You really shouldn't combine it with other things that impose a penalty, though. The Stalker II is a bad idea.

How about armored engine or a compact engine?  Is one much better than the other.

I think the armored engine is going to help survivability a whole lot more than a compact engine.

[Empyrus]

Compact engines are very niche. They have some use for 'Mechs that for some reason need internal space and have excess free weight. Energy-weapon and cooling heavy assault 'Mechs basically. Note that compact engines don't really add to survivability by themselves, only if the added space is used somehow.

Component armoring is extremely strong construction option in general. But it is weight-expensive, an armored standard engine costs 3 extra tons, armored light/Clan XL engine costs 5 tons, armored XLFE costs 6 tons. Funny enough but armoring a compact engine kinda makes sense, it costs only 1.5 tons extra, which is not much given how much compact engines weight anyway.

If you want some extra survivability against crits for low mass, armor the gyroscope. That costs 2 tons, makes the gyro basically impervious to critical hits, and given the size of gyros, overall reduces effects of critical hits on center torso.

[SCC]

Used one in a design once to make an Atlas that Clan ER Large Lasers shooting out of it's eyes.

[Iceweb]

I would wonder if you could make a custom monster ride for a wobbie who wanted a torso cockpit but was still planning to plug in via VDNI to offset the piloting mod. 
Not sure what else the mech would need but it could be a memorable bad guy to fight.

[Empyrus]

I think VDNI can be used with torso cockpit but not sure. But unless it is buffered, the pilot will be fried before the 'Mech dies probably.

The Society's Osteon is basically what you describe, minus VDNI.
Torso-mounted cockpit, ridiculously tough armor, plenty of weapons, plus Nova CEWS. A "boss 'Mech", if there ever was one.

[SteelRaven]

I think VDNI can be used with torso cockpit but not sure. But unless it is buffered, the pilot will be fried before the 'Mech dies probably.

It can, MD mechwarriors used VDNI and other cybernetics like pain shunt to counter the negative effects VDNI. Still not recommended considering even DNI and Neural Implants will cause brain damage over time, only the hardcore (who probably put good money on dying in combat prior to the effects of the implants taking its toll) opted for the brain surgery.

[ANS Kamas P81]

And four iATM9s I think.  Osteon's a meanie.

Good thing you can't put an MD Interface Cockpit in the torso where the gyro was.  That could get interesting.

[Iceweb]

And four iATM9s I think.  Osteon's a meanie.

Good thing you can't put an MD Interface Cockpit in the torso where the gyro was.  That could get interesting.

See house ruling that for a one shot and saying that it only works with the evil toaster's custom cybernetics sounds good to me. 

We know that some of the special MD had cybernetics that did other stuff like better heat rolls.
Why not break some rules for the big bad.

[grimlock1]

And four iATM9s I think.  Osteon's a meanie.

Good thing you can't put an MD Interface Cockpit in the torso where the gyro was.  That could get interesting.

I want to make sure that you're suggesting the evil that I think you are.  Are you talking about a torso mounted MD Interface?

We know that some of the special MD had cybernetics that did other stuff like better heat rolls.

Which implant was that?

It can, MD mechwarriors used VDNI and other cybernetics like pain shunt to counter the negative effects VDNI. Still not recommended considering even DNI and Neural Implants will cause brain damage over time, only the hardcore (who probably put good money on dying in combat prior to the effects of the implants taking its toll) opted for the brain surgery.

VDNI should work fine in a torso.  bVDNI, perhaps not so much. IO only says that bVDNI counters Small Cockpit's +1 PSR(pg 82).  On the other hand, TO justifies that PSR by saying that torso cockpits are a "cramped space."(pg 301).  That sounds like a "small cockpit" to me. 

Used one in a design once to make an Atlas that Clan ER Large Lasers shooting out of it's eyes.

That is... disturbing.  I like it.

[SCC]

It can, MD mechwarriors used VDNI and other cybernetics like pain shunt to counter the negative effects VDNI. Still not recommended considering even DNI and Neural Implants will cause brain damage over time, only the hardcore (who probably put good money on dying in combat prior to the effects of the implants taking its toll) opted for the brain surgery.

You might want to grab your Nightmare Fuel ****** because this next bit is likely to get scary.

We know that the MD gave a lot of stuff to the Thugee's so it possible that the CC got their hands on it and they probably handed it off the the Canopians and the Ebon Magistrate, and even if that didn't happen there's lots of other ways for the Magistrate to get their hands on it, and they would probably want to. Now it's also likely that the Canopians have gotten their hands on DNA samples of people from the Clans eugenics program. So best case scenario is that they produced a batch of kids with Aerospace phenotype and plan to give them Buffered VDNI at some point, worse case they managed to isolate the gene makes Aerospace pilots handle EI Implants better and splice it into the MechWarrior phenotype (You know, something like this could explain Danai). Now there are no rules for what happens if you give someone with the Aerospace phenotype a BVNDI, but they should survive at least a decade with major problems or possibly as many 30 or more years, it all depends upon if they acquire a point of fatigue every 5 years or every 9 years.

That is... disturbing.  I like it.

Thanks, I can't remember exactly what was going through my head at the time, but I'm pretty sure that it came from an attempt to produce an intro-tech design that made good use of the Hand-Held Weapon rules, that design was an upgraded version. I don't know if I've still got the file, but it had those two lasers in the head, an Ultra-20 and presumably some back up lasers and an SRM-6 in the torso and Rocket Launchers in the legs (ran out of things to put in it) and it was supposed to carry an LRM weapon pod.

[grimlock1]

You might want to grab your Nightmare Fuel ****** because this next bit is likely to get scary.

We know that the MD gave a lot of stuff to the Thugee's so it possible that the CC got their hands on it and they probably handed it off the the Canopians and the Ebon Magistrate, and even if that didn't happen there's lots of other ways for the Magistrate to get their hands on it, and they would probably want to. Now it's also likely that the Canopians have gotten their hands on DNA samples of people from the Clans eugenics program. So best case scenario is that they produced a batch of kids with Aerospace phenotype and plan to give them Buffered VDNI at some point, worse case they managed to isolate the gene makes Aerospace pilots handle EI Implants better and splice it into the MechWarrior phenotype (You know, something like this could explain Danai). Now there are no rules for what happens if you give someone with the Aerospace phenotype a BVNDI, but they should survive at least a decade with major problems or possibly as many 30 or more years, it all depends upon if they acquire a point of fatigue every 5 years or every 9 years.

When/which publication turned the Canopians into gene-splicing experts?  Are they doing the sibko thing now?  I still haven't gotten my hands on the novels but none of the profiles I've seen suggested she was anything more than "above average" as a pilot.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Used one in a design once to make an Atlas that Clan ER Large Lasers shooting out of it's eyes.

Such wasted comedic potential.

Those lasers should have shot out of the Atlas's nasal cavity.

[Crow]

Are Torso Cockpits worth it? On the Osteon, definitely yes, on other Mechs, probably not. The Osteon is ristar bait and it's pilot, like all Society warriors, isn't meant to survive.

[SCC]

When/which publication turned the Canopians into gene-splicing experts?

The mermaid thing.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I want to make sure that you're suggesting the evil that I think you are.  Are you talking about a torso mounted MD Interface?

I am indeed.  Or at least lamenting the fact that such a thing would need the Illegal quirk, but what's a quirk between friends eh?

Such wasted comedic potential.

Those lasers should have shot out of the Atlas's nasal cavity.

CT cockpits have four head slots open, each ERLL takes up one so you have two left.

Two Flamers that shoot from the nose.  Blow napalm snot on your enemy infantry.

[Kit deSummersville]

The mermaid thing.

Mermaids are prosthetic, not genetic. See the A Time of War Companion.

[Empyrus]

Are Torso Cockpits worth it? On the Osteon, definitely yes, on other Mechs, probably not. The Osteon is ristar bait and it's pilot, like all Society warriors, isn't meant to survive.

On the contrary, based on the MotW discussion about the Osteon and other Society 'Mechs, it was very much intended to be survivable.
The Society's idea was that the 'Mech would stand back, give fire support from distance, and then retreat. The armor and stuff was there to help it survive since the Society has limited resources. Unfortunately, your average Clan MechWarrior doesn't think like the Society's scientists and theoreticians...

[SCC]

Mermaids are prosthetic, not genetic. See the A Time of War Companion.

Not the one I'm thinking of, although if that ever happened is unknown in-universe.

[Kit deSummersville]

Not the one I'm thinking of, although if that ever happened is unknown in-universe.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

[Liam's Ghost]

I have no idea what you are saying here.

Maybe the fishpeople of frobisher?

Or possibly the pre-atow companion rumor that the Magistracy's merpeople were biological?

[SCC]

I have no idea what you are saying here.

I believe it dates to the original Peripheral handbook, but there is an in-universe myth that at some point Canopus genetically created a mermaid

[ANS Kamas P81]

Emphasis on 'in-universe' and 'myth'

[grimlock1]

w

I am indeed.  Or at least lamenting the fact that such a thing would need the Illegal quirk, but what's a quirk between friends eh?

I'm open to negotiation.

That may or may not work out in your favor.  >:D

[Robroy]

I believe it dates to the original Peripheral handbook, but there is an in-universe myth that at some point Canopus genetically created a mermaid

Are you thinking of one of the world's from Interstellar Players 3 Interstellar Expeditions?

I think that is the book where there is a world where the Star League was doing genetic experiments for colonizing water worlds.

I could be worng, it has been a long time since I read the old Periphery book.