Author Topic: “Save” the Jags  (Read 136800 times)

Hellraiser

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #480 on: 07 July 2020, 16:59:39 »
@Natasha:

Here is the problem I'm seeing in your analogy of Freshmen per Year v/s 5 Year Generation at a time.

It would be like saying the entire state your in  (clan)  only gets pregnant every 20 years since that is a generation.

Or like saying, that highschools only take in new students once every 4 years & they graduate that group as seniors before another group comes in.
Apply this to 2-year JR. highs & 6 year grade schools equally.

To use my Basic Training analogy from above, it would be like if the entire Brigade all started new BT/AIT classes on the same day.  Instead of every 2-4 weeks a different company starts.

Think about the cluster-fowl that would be when the entire brigade hits week 7 & needs to use the Rifle Range at the same time.
Or the Drivers course for Tank Driving classes.
Or heck, just access to enough tanks to train 5 battalions at the same time instead of JUST the guys that are on Week 9 for driving, or gunnery, or maintenance, or whatever.

Heck, look at from the Clan Canisters prospective.
So they get used for 9 months & then Not again for 5 YEARS?
Talk about the deterioration of skills.
What do you think those Scientists & Techs would be doing for 5 years?

Sorry, it just makes far more sense with logistics perspective if you have a limited # of canisters & they get used every 9-12 months.  And then that "litter" gets sent to a creche family of keepers who has just sent their 10 year olds off to a Sibko.
Then a year later a different family gets a new batch of babies after their kids move on.

That way one batch of canisters is keeping multiple familiy/creche units going at a time.
Testing of the kids is always going on, development in size, reflexes, intelligence, health, etc etc.

After 5 years they decide how they want to proceed with those parents. 
They also look at what the parents have done if they are still alive.
Have they taken over worlds single-handedly in the last 5 years?
Did the parents get disgraced?
What about previous generations made from either of the parents?  Have they sucked or exceeded?

All that can be taken into account to decide if that parent's genes are going to be used again.
And if it all looks good......Then, after the 5 years, they make another identical batch.
Or a different mix, but, I've always read that 5 years is how long they way for THAT PAIRING before they repeat it.

Just the term "Generation".   In our terms its 20 years.  But there are different "Generations" all throughout the population.
You could have the 60's group & the 40's group, but that doesn't mean there isn't a 50's group.

And as Colt mentioned, can you imagine a military that only has Repple-depple every 5 years?
When I was in a new unit building up, we got new buses of troops every few weeks till full & then a trickle as we had openings from transfers out & injuries.

The idea of cannibalizing 2nd line units for Front Line only happened because of the extreme 80% losses from Front Line forces in the Refusal War.
And then you'd be stuck waiting 20 years to be able to rebuild those 2nd line units.
Even "Harvest" wars was something of a fluke idea Vlad had to take advantage of the lust so many Home clans had to get to the IS. 
Stuff like that hadn't occurred in the past short of Absorption trials.
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rebs

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #481 on: 07 July 2020, 17:19:33 »
Way of the Clans indicated a Trial of Position taking place off in the distance, as Aidan and his sibko looked on in the dark.  This was a year or so before Aidan and Marthe's own ToP.

Edit

Oh, and Aidan as Jorge.  They may be freeborn, but the new group was a year or two behind Aidan.  And they had to deal with their trueborn peer sibkos, such as be opfor during trueborn training and whatnot.

It's pretty clear this is a continual process of training and graduating new warriors likely every year.

And someone could always ask the authors or developers...
« Last Edit: 07 July 2020, 17:34:07 by rebs »
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #482 on: 07 July 2020, 20:14:17 »
It would be like saying the entire state your in  (clan)  only gets pregnant every 20 years since that is a generation.

I don’t see this as an issue for the Clans, for several reasons.

One, it’s a five-year trueborn generation planning cycle, not 20 years (obviously).

Two, the trueborn generation cycle produces a huge excess of warrior candidates that wash out (or die) during training and ToPs, anyway.  In some cases, the canon indicates that as small as a few percent of newborn sibkin become warriors.  Even with a five-year trueborn generation planning cycle, Clan toumans are not suffering for a lack of sibkin.  (In fact, all these excess trueborns was one of the secondary reasons the trueborn program was created in the first place, because it also helped artificially boost Clan population growth.)

Three, the trueborn population is a very small fraction (less than 1%) of the overall Clan population.  99%+ of the remaining Clan population is still making babies the old fashioned way outside the 5-year trueborn planning cycle.

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Or like saying, that highschools only take in new students once every 4 years & they graduate that group as seniors before another group comes in.
Apply this to 2-year JR. highs & 6 year grade schools equally.

I don’t see this as a problem, either.  If a four-year school needs X teachers to cover Y students, it doesn’t matter whether the students’ birthdates are spread over four years or one year.  If it’s the former, then X/4 teachers will cover Y/4 students each year, as we do in our schools.  If it’s the latter, then all X teachers will stay with all Y students for all four years, as I suspect (and I think the canon fiction indicates) happens in Clan creches, training centers, and other sibko whatchamacallits

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To use my Basic Training analogy from above

I’m not current or ex-military, but I totally get the logistics issues you’re raising.  They’re accurate and legitimate, and I have no argument against them.

That said, we’re not talking about your unit, service, or military.  We’re talking about Clan toumans and societies, which are very different from the US and other modern-day militaries and societies.  Clanner priorities are way out of whack compared to our own.

To use one example, in their ToPs, the Clans routinely destroy one, maybe two or more, top-of-the-line omnimechs just qualify a sibkin for the warrior caste and determine their rank.  That’s just nutty.  It would be like destroying one or more F-22s or Abrams tanks for every cadet out of fighter school or tank crew out of armor training.  It gets even nuttier in Trials of Bloodright and Grand Melees.  In those, whole clusters of mechs — the equivalent of wings of our fighter aircraft or battalions of our armor units — are destroyed just to identify one geneparent for future trueborn generations.

If the Clans are willing to expend that much horrendously expensive military material just to determine who gets to be a warrior and who gets to be a geneparent, then I have no doubt that the Clans are willing to expend whatever resources are necessary to support their five-year trueborn generation planning cycle.  What’s the cost of additional iron wombs, training facilities, shooting ranges, and training personnel compared to the cost of all the omnimechs that get junked every five years testing the warrior and bloodname candidates that come out of those trueborn gestation and training programs?  I’d venture it’s relatively small by comparison.  (Maybe even an afterthought or rounding error in whatever constitutes a Clan or touman’s budget.)

Again, I absolutely think your logistical points about military recruitment, training, rotation, replenishment, etc. today are spot on.  My point is that the Clans are not that kind of military or society, and we have to put ourselves in their somewhat alien minds to understand why certain things are the way they are in the Clans.

This may not help, but I think it’s no mistake that the Clans use Mongol terms like touman and khan.  I think Boy Peterson or whoever is responsible for first writing up the Clans wanted to be explicit in how Clan society is more totally geared for war like those ancient “barbarian” societies, and not like the Houses in BT or our own modern societies.  I dabble in Norse studies, and I find the Clans to have much more in common with the Viking mindset and outlook (and similar Migration Era and post-Migration Era peoples) than anything medieval or modern.  Much like how the Clans expend multi-zillion Kerensky military hardware on Trials of Position and Bloodright, the Norse and similar societies buried swords, horses, ships and other invaluable (for them) resources with their warriors and leaders instead of handing them down to family and friends.  I don’t think the similarities are an accident.

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What do you think those Scientists & Techs would be doing for 5 years?

This is more in my wheelhouse as an astrophysics major turned engineering program manager.

I think the Clans and the Scientist Caste approach each trueborn generation as a major engineering systems development project.  They’re trying to build the optimum touman (or optimum incoming element of their touman) with each new generation.  It’s probably a lengthy process that’s not terribly dissimilar at a high level from how a new weapons system gets developed today.

The Scientist Caste probably has to start with requirements from their customer(s) in the Warrior Caste, which itself probably spends considerable time assessing threats, evaluating unit performance, setting goals, and making plans that impact those requirements for the next generation (e.g., we need how many warriors of what phenotypes with what spread of characteristics).  In parallel, the Scientist Caste also has to gather and normalize tons of data on sibkin growth and trueborn warrior codex performance across their entire training program and touman.

Then, and I’m guessing this is what they spend most of their time on, the Scientist Caste has to turn that data into information, which probably involves endless debates over qualitative judgements.  Do two codex kills against ancient limping Mercury mechs on a bandit hunt equal one cored assault omnimech kill during a formal inter-Clan trial?  Are any of those kills evidence of the leadership, initiative, tactical thinking, or strategic insight that the Warrior Caste listed as its top four requirements for the next trueborn generation?  Does that codex really indicate a proclivity for insubordination or did that warrior just have a string of bad commanders?

With that information in hand, the Scientist Caste then has to analyze what mix of geneparent pairings will give the Warrior Caste what it wants in the next generation balanced against other constraints and demands.  This is unlikely to be as simple as just repeating or expanding the most successful geneparent pairings from the last generation.  Older and/or popular female germline material may be limited, creating scarcity for some of the more desirable pairings, which have to be supplemented with less desirable pairings.  There may be a lot of debate and judgement calls on how many genepairings to risk on certain new bloodnamed warriors, who may be performing great in the field but whose genetic material has not been paired before.  There may be issues with genetic diversity that have to be balanced against having Natasha Kerensky (or pick your best warrior) in every genepairing.  Not unlike systems analysis, there’s probably a lot of iteration and modeling (and maybe even simulation and red-team testing) to arrive at a final product. 

And then that product probably has to be reviewed by the customer(s) in the Warrior Caste, which may be another iterative process if the Warrior Caste sends (maybe repeatedly) the Scientist Caste back to the drawing boards.

Even when well-planned and run, I could easily see this process taking years, just as we spend years designing, developing, and testing new weapons systems.  Putting zygotes in iron wombs is not what the Scientist Caste spends the vast bulk of its time on.  I think it’s the data-intensive, qualitative decision making, and iterative optimization processes that determine what mix of zygotes should be created in the first place that the Scientist Caste spends nearly all its time on.

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The idea of cannibalizing 2nd line units for Front Line only happened because of the extreme 80% losses from Front Line forces in the Refusal War.

Even "Harvest" wars was something of a fluke idea Vlad had to take advantage of the lust so many Home clans had to get to the IS.

We don’t really know because there is so little information on the Clans pre-Revival.  But I seriously doubt no Clan had brought secondline/garrison clusters into frontline galaxies prior to the Refusal War.  And the Harvest Trials are just a fancy name for the Falcon and Wolf post-Refusal Trials of Possession, which the Clans have been doing for warriors and units for a couple centuries.  Even in the limited material we have, there is evidence of contract bids and other measures pre-Revival

Again, I’m not the Clan canon cop.  If my interpretation of the canon sources doesn’t work for you, then by all means, go with your own.  But hopefully this explains where my headcanon on the topic is coming from.

« Last Edit: 07 July 2020, 22:06:58 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #483 on: 07 July 2020, 20:59:08 »
Way of the Clans indicated a Trial of Position taking place off in the distance, as Aidan and his sibko looked on in the dark.

Trials of Position take place for all kinds of reasons, ranks, and positions at various points in a warrior’s career.  Natasha Kerensky had to undertake one when she returned to Clan Wolf, for example.  Not every ToP is to determine whether a sibkin can join the Warrior Caste.

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They may be freeborn, but the new group was a year or two behind Aidan.

I don’t think the canon has given us enough to really know how freeborn sibkos are organized relative to the five-year trueborn cycle.  It probably varies from Clan to Clan (some don’t allow freeborns into the Warrior Caste at all) and with time (changing garrison and other demands).  They are certainly treated worse than the trueborn sibkos, which would explain a freeborn sibko going up again a trueborn sibko a couple years their senior.

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And someone could always ask the authors or developers...

Done and done.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=70107.0
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Hellraiser

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #484 on: 07 July 2020, 21:51:39 »
The Harvest trials might have been a "Trial of Possession" but the intent & scale of them was unlike anything the clans have done before from what I've read.

You trial for a single warrior or access to his Genes.
That those are defended vigorously for the clan.

The Harvest trials was units that actively choose to abandon their clan by intentionally loosing mock battles for a chance at glory in the IS.

Given how much value the clan's place on Victory & Clan Loyalty, I found the Harvest Trials to be one of the most unbelievable parts of clan canon.  Total FIAT basically.

Its up there w/ House Liao and Xin Shen and the ability to go from weakest IS nation military to strongest in 50 years.  Never bought that one either. 

But I'm probably getting a bit off topic here.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #485 on: 07 July 2020, 22:55:04 »
Given how much value the clan's place on Victory & Clan Loyalty, I found the Harvest Trials to be one of the most unbelievable parts of clan canon.  Total FIAT basically.

At the risk of continuing off-topic...

I think the counterarguments are that:  1) Clan society in general is conditioned to rapidly switch allegiances with its constant Trials of Possession, formalized bondsman rituals, etc.; 2) many Homeworld Clan warriors probably (correctly) thought the Harvest Trials were their only/last chance to see the promised land of the Inner Sphere; and 3) many Homeworld Clan warriors probably thought there were more opportunities with the Falcons and Wolves to burnish their codexes, earn a bloodname, and thus reproduce and earn some measure of immortality than with their parent Clans.

That said, while I can see a flood of individual “volunteers”, I also find it hard to believe that there would be multiple breakdowns in Clan chains of command resulting in many entire units going over to the Falcons and Wolves.

An aside, there is evidence that membership in some Migration Era tribes like the Visigoths was based in whether you joined and fought for that leader or group, not on your ethnic or other origins.  Maybe another parallel with the Clans.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #486 on: 07 July 2020, 23:34:08 »
I also find it hard to believe that there would be multiple breakdowns in Clan chains of command resulting in many entire units going over to the Falcons and Wolves.
  The Clans are not strangers to dishonesty or disobedience. Clan units on Tukayyid ignored orders that were contrary to what they wanted to do, which was fight. If you were a Homeworld Clan member and the only way to participate in the most glorious event in Clan history was to join one of the invading Clans, you'd look at ways to bend the rules, rather than die in obscurity. Results that bring honor often erases the dishonorable methods used to achieve them.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #487 on: 08 July 2020, 09:14:51 »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

truetanker

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #488 on: 08 July 2020, 10:13:55 »
Harvest Trails are not about mock trials and units abandoning their parent clans. There about showing why they should be worthy of their new clan over their older one. Yes it might have been because they saw other, more stronger, clan winning more. But it could also be them seeing the end of their older dying one, either be absorbed as a unit or be casted aside. Like what the  Stone Lions did, which bolstered their touman.

TT
« Last Edit: 08 July 2020, 10:15:38 by truetanker »
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Colt Ward

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #489 on: 08 July 2020, 12:28:19 »
After Taney's push to get a Invasion corridor was blocked, it was a way to get more/greater combat experience and prove the genes.

Remember when Natasha came back along with her archivist, who presented the Wolf Clan Council the deeds of the Dragoons over the decades.  It was a huge vote but Cyrilla explained that most of the protest was pro forma part of the Warden/Crusader fight but ALL the Bloodhouses wanted the results since they would try to see if any of their members distinguished themselves.

The Home Clans might not have liked their members offering challenges, but Bloodhouse politics?  Yeah . . . send ristars and bloodnamed to the Inner Sphere to prove themselves.  Some of it was also political- the Hellions tried to pay back Vlad with humiliation but it backfired as he took the equipment as isorla but sent the warriors back.  One of the other interesting points is simply, which Clans did not give up troops?  AFAIK, it was just the Adders and Spirits- they had the York fighting going on- even the monkeys and Vipers (kicked out) had units bid, though the Vipers were only challenging the Crusader Wolves afaik.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #490 on: 08 July 2020, 23:32:09 »
This is detailed in the ten part story 'Trial Under Fire' by Loren L. Coleman. It is canon. Yes, it has a character, Brendon Corbett. He is a Jag Galaxy Commander, who attempts to establish control of the Jags on Tranquil. It follows the Inner Sphere forces tasked with eliminating him. Takes place after Huntress is 'pacified' and before Victor arrives on Strana Mechty.

How much forces did Corbett have? A cluster?

Jaim Magnus

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #491 on: 09 July 2020, 08:54:26 »
How much forces did Corbett have? A cluster?

An extremely light Galaxy. He had the Jaguar Spirit Keshik, remains of 9th Jaguar Cavaliers, and Tranquil's existing garrison, likely a second-line cluster. Probably amounted to two clusters. There may have been some stragglers from other Jaguar holdings, but most of those were gathered up by Osis to go to Huntress.

For reference see "Trial Under Fire" by Loren L. Coleman and the old scenario pack "The Dragon Roars".
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Colt Ward

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #492 on: 09 July 2020, 10:13:58 »
Just keep in mind, it was all understrength- even the garrison force (think of the state of Huntress)- and probably had some sibkos on planet as well.  They were also using some of the isorla from the IS, lol.
Colt Ward
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #493 on: 09 July 2020, 10:26:37 »
Just keep in mind, it was all understrength- even the garrison force (think of the state of Huntress)- and probably had some sibkos on planet as well.  They were also using some of the isorla from the IS, lol.

Right... so Corbett had a force roughly equal to what hang Mehta had but of lesser quality? But surely enough to defeat serpent?

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #494 on: 09 July 2020, 10:41:45 »
She had more- two patched up galaxies and then Osis fed her some reinforcements.

Remains of a keshik, remains of a frontline cluster, understrength & under-supplied garrison cluster, and maybe some sibkos that are in the last 2-3 years who are thrown into the fight for the Clan to survive.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Jaim Magnus

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #495 on: 09 July 2020, 10:44:41 »
And Corbett probably lacked the lift capacity to move those forces.
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Colt Ward

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #496 on: 09 July 2020, 10:46:59 »
Yeah, technically he could have showed up in a single Star Lord with 2-3 dropships depending on how the Keshik & cluster escaped.

IIRC part of the story/campaign was getting to a DS- it was the prize dangled out there for the protagonist to evac.
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #497 on: 10 July 2020, 09:43:17 »
And Corbett probably lacked the lift capacity to move those forces.

Wait but how do they get to tranquil then?

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #498 on: 10 July 2020, 10:56:39 »
As I just said, Corbett probably had a smaller JS and 2 or 3 DS to lift what fled there from the IS . . . he did NOT have the lift capacity for what he would have found on the world- understrength garrison cluster that relies mostly on old mechs, vehicles, and infantry along with any sibkos.  The sibkos are very likely under equipped even if overstrength on personnel and like on Huntress would have their trainers act as cadre for a 'Sibko Provisional Cluster.'

Consider this- while a cluster can have anywhere from 30-60 mechs & mechwarriors, that is because they are expected to field all of them at the same time . . . but a training command would not typically need to field all the mechwarriors at the same time so they would probably have a third to a quarter of the mechs vs the number of mechwarriors.  Sibko of 200, by the time they are into advanced training (12-14?) they are probably down to 80-ish mechwarrior candidates who never take the field together at first but as part of initial training are running obstacle & gunnery courses and cycle through mechs.  So 20 mechs would let the trainers run all 80-ish warriors through in 4-5 cycles, say 2 hours each cycle for the cadet to strap in, run the course and return.  By the time the sibko is down to the last stages, each mechwarrior would probably have a single mech assigned to them with the expectation you would have less than 20 cadets in that final year . . . with 5 (2.5%) -10 (5%) passing their Trial of Position.  Further, the only mech we have seen with final age cadets were Kit Foxes IIRC . . . so the mechs a training center will get are likely old/balky/patched up lights with a few mediums, heavies and maybe assaults for 'familiarization' training.  Selection for a Jag training center might be . . . 10 Kit Foxes, 5 Mist Lynx, Nova, Stormcrow, 2 Hellbringer, and old Warhawk or Kingfisher.  Older, robust, easy to repair designs that the cadets could abuse as they learn.

Huntress had something like 20+ 'sibko training centers' which were different than general training centers like the one on Abyssal that Serpent found mostly empty- it was a desert environment training center for sibkos & line units to cycle through to understand the environment.  We have the FMs that barely describe large & small sibko training centers but its never actually been laid out like . . . 'a center will be all 1 age group' or 'will space age groups 2 years apart from ages 12-18/20.'  We do know the Clans do not really go in for simulators so they will likely have more actual mechs than a comparable IS facility.

So, consider Tranquil was half Jag and seems to be a important holding for them . . . even 4-6 training centers with a single large mechwarrior sibko at the different ages (12, 14, 16, 18 FREX) could net somewhere around 200 MW cadets and around a binary of old warriors as trainers.  Which is just mechwarriors, you also have to factor in Elementals and Aero Pilots along with the washouts who ended up in armor, VTOLs and infantry but they are all also equipment poor like the mechwarriors.

Which is IF Corbett allowed trainees to fight . . . and IF the Jaguars operated any sibko training centers off Huntress.  But it still means he has more personnel and more equipment (even if its in poor condition and light) than he probably arrived on transportation with . . . because remember, while Osis issued a recall order not every JS left with Mehta- you had her fleet, Corbett, and folks who wandered off to Randis at least as part of the fracturing.

With all that said . . . fighting some sibkos on Tranquil makes some sense of the MW3 campaign and the later write up for it.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #499 on: 10 July 2020, 13:03:31 »
As I just said, Corbett probably had a smaller JS and 2 or 3 DS to lift what fled there from the IS . . . he did NOT have the lift capacity for what he would have found on the world- understrength garrison cluster that relies mostly on old mechs, vehicles, and infantry along with any sibkos.  The sibkos are very likely under equipped even if overstrength on personnel and like on Huntress would have their trainers act as cadre for a 'Sibko Provisional Cluster.'

Consider this- while a cluster can have anywhere from 30-60 mechs & mechwarriors, that is because they are expected to field all of them at the same time . . . but a training command would not typically need to field all the mechwarriors at the same time so they would probably have a third to a quarter of the mechs vs the number of mechwarriors.  Sibko of 200, by the time they are into advanced training (12-14?) they are probably down to 80-ish mechwarrior candidates who never take the field together at first but as part of initial training are running obstacle & gunnery courses and cycle through mechs.  So 20 mechs would let the trainers run all 80-ish warriors through in 4-5 cycles, say 2 hours each cycle for the cadet to strap in, run the course and return.  By the time the sibko is down to the last stages, each mechwarrior would probably have a single mech assigned to them with the expectation you would have less than 20 cadets in that final year . . . with 5 (2.5%) -10 (5%) passing their Trial of Position.  Further, the only mech we have seen with final age cadets were Kit Foxes IIRC . . . so the mechs a training center will get are likely old/balky/patched up lights with a few mediums, heavies and maybe assaults for 'familiarization' training.  Selection for a Jag training center might be . . . 10 Kit Foxes, 5 Mist Lynx, Nova, Stormcrow, 2 Hellbringer, and old Warhawk or Kingfisher.  Older, robust, easy to repair designs that the cadets could abuse as they learn.

Huntress had something like 20+ 'sibko training centers' which were different than general training centers like the one on Abyssal that Serpent found mostly empty- it was a desert environment training center for sibkos & line units to cycle through to understand the environment.  We have the FMs that barely describe large & small sibko training centers but its never actually been laid out like . . . 'a center will be all 1 age group' or 'will space age groups 2 years apart from ages 12-18/20.'  We do know the Clans do not really go in for simulators so they will likely have more actual mechs than a comparable IS facility.

So, consider Tranquil was half Jag and seems to be a important holding for them . . . even 4-6 training centers with a single large mechwarrior sibko at the different ages (12, 14, 16, 18 FREX) could net somewhere around 200 MW cadets and around a binary of old warriors as trainers.  Which is just mechwarriors, you also have to factor in Elementals and Aero Pilots along with the washouts who ended up in armor, VTOLs and infantry but they are all also equipment poor like the mechwarriors.

Which is IF Corbett allowed trainees to fight . . . and IF the Jaguars operated any sibko training centers off Huntress.  But it still means he has more personnel and more equipment (even if its in poor condition and light) than he probably arrived on transportation with . . . because remember, while Osis issued a recall order not every JS left with Mehta- you had her fleet, Corbett, and folks who wandered off to Randis at least as part of the fracturing.

With all that said . . . fighting some sibkos on Tranquil makes some sense of the MW3 campaign and the later write up for it.

Thank you that was very helpful! I did not realize he found that much in tranquil

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #500 on: 10 July 2020, 15:49:14 »
Not saying he had any of the sibkos or even what the garrison might have been.  As far as I know its never been laid out.  What I offer is conjecture based on what we know about the forces on Huntress and the little bits of sibko information in FMs & MWGttC.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #501 on: 12 July 2020, 21:53:21 »
I am the only one that wondered about that passage? We know that the Jaguars were warriors, not politicians, tacticians or spies. A unit like this do not match with the Jaguars - especially an Osis. As this is also the only reference i do not take this for any guideline in my campaigns.

I am so curious about this unit! I cannot imagine how funny a “ undercover “ jag unit would have been...


But seriously this whole cluster must have been taken out by the society right?

Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #502 on: 12 July 2020, 21:55:20 »
Two paint scheme questions:

The jaguars heart: my fav band of jag retirees what paint scheme do we think they would have had?

And what about the jaguars swords?

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #503 on: 18 July 2020, 13:49:40 »
I am so curious about this unit! I cannot imagine how funny a “ undercover “ jag unit would have been...


But seriously this whole cluster must have been taken out by the society right?

At the point when this unit went MIA would they likely have been taken out by a “ jump drive malfunction “ rather than battle?

Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #504 on: 30 July 2020, 17:08:00 »
Hawker probably was taking his whole re-built Alpha Galaxy as it was his personal command and frontline galaxies are designed to move.  Real question is how well was it equipped?  Since the saKhan was in charge of re-building and delegated a lot of the material replacement duties to Labov . . . its questionable if it was more combat capable than Sennet's Beta Galaxy, though I would expect more Crusaders in the ranks than any other Shark formation.  Osis shared some information about what had happened, but indications were he was still hiding some of the information since he still was acting as Jaguar Khan (part of Vlad's charges) so Hawker had a clue but not the full picture.  Besides, I think Serpent dealt with the HPG pretty quick.  Hawker could move Alpha, filled with Crusaders in command positions and thus least likely to challenge, while moving any other galaxy or even cluster opened his actions up to Clan Council consideration or even challenge by another bloodnamed officer.  Getting involved against the IS on Huntress would have presented the Wardens & Clan Council of the Sharks a fait accompli that would likely have compelled them to get involved until Hawker was killed.

After Alpha, Beta and the Spina galaxies would have been the 'easiest' to move into place . . . and would have finished everything the IS had to throw with ground forces & warships.

The Heart was made up of what Osis could strip- and it was that, he was breaking the Clan's operating ability by taking warriors from slots- to build any sort of formation with whatever weapons he could get his hands on.  The name was for morale and to describe their efforts.

Nothing AFAIK from the legacy challenge would sway Vlad into helping the Jaguars on Huntress.  Its not going to kick off a call of 'Crusaders UNITE!' among the Clans, Vlad's speech in the Grand Council pretty well summed it up.  It would not be the end of the Clans, merely the end of a Clan proving its failure while the others learned, absorbed and moved on.

Why did hawker not vote to support the jags? Why the change of heart afterwards?

Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #505 on: 09 August 2020, 08:16:22 »
Why did hawker not vote to support the jags? Why the change of heart afterwards?

Finally rebought prince of havoc again after 20 yrs. this novel deals with the great refusal and I was surprised that khan Schmidt of the blood spirits got page time but hawker did not...

marauder648

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #506 on: 09 August 2020, 09:25:08 »
One thing to remember is that the Jags were pretty much loathed by the other Clans and in truth they were more than happy to see them gone.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #507 on: 09 August 2020, 09:47:13 »
One thing to remember is that the Jags were pretty much loathed by the other Clans and in truth they were more than happy to see them gone.
  You also have to remember that competition and rivalry among the Clans was the norm, while cooperation was a rarity. The invasion of the IS was more a race between independent Clan factions, not a concerted effort.
Even when a Clan was singled out for destruction, there was never unified action, just individual Clans attacking the same target. Neither Luthien nor Tukayyid were coordinated campaigns, the participating Clans competed with each other against a common enemy but you never saw them actually supporting each other because that is unthinkable in Clan culture -It just isn't done.
  Even with a central authority issuing suggestions, the Clans were resistant and pretty much told Ulric to mind his own business...then turned around and blamed him for their failure, because he let them do what they wanted, instead of ordering them around and micromanaging their forces. CSJ had a lot of problems that they refused to recognize, which only amplified those problems, and nobody was going to help them because all of them remembered how CSJ bullied the other Clans for years, and vindictiveness is another product of Clan culture, slights are never forgiven.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #508 on: 18 August 2020, 21:42:34 »
I have recently become very interested in the jaguars heart adhoc unit of almost retired but elite/vet warriors who answered khan osis call to defend huntress. IF the jags had survived would the survivors of that unit who had not earned bloodnames been sponsored again?

I mean the bloodnamed ranks of the jags would have been decimated and these gals and guys would have done an amazing service...

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #509 on: 18 August 2020, 23:21:16 »
I say yes they would be sponsored for a Bloodname.   There would be so many vacated Bloodnames that they would have to be nominated. 

Of course, this all depends on them being successful, which is a tall order.
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