DropShip of the Week: Vengeance

[Jellico]

Vengeance: DS&JS, TRO3057, XTRO Periphery, TRO Prototypes

Ahh the Vengeance. The fastest way to end an argument in Aerotech is to mention the Vengeance. The Godwin of spaceflight. Deeply unbalancing it still causes mental nightmares to this day. So what is the Vengeance and why do we care?

The history of the Vengeance has always been somewhat confused. Even the earliest fluff described what it was and how it was used rather than where it came from. This led to all sorts of confusion. For example it was regularly associated with the Federated Suns despite never being built there, until it was retconned so that it was. It was associated with the Star League, despite being introduced in 2782, until it was retconned to 2682. Perception bending reality?

In any case, as it currently stands the Vengeance was first introduced in 2682, thirty-five years after the Titan. The timing of the date retcon caused an interesting situation of the Vengeance serving the Houses in their 2765 Field Reports but not the Star League. The Vengeance would certainly have been available to the Star League and would have made a useful point defence carrier relying on SLDF WarShips for stores. At the same time you can make an argument that they were not needed. More on that later. The main point here is that Vengeances were not built in the Hegemony, rather in the Successor States by Salvatore Inc. (Layover), Tomori Trans Industrial (Chatham), and Kallon Weapon Industries (Loyalty). These three factories would churn out Vengeances for years with only Salvatore Inc. being flattened in the Second Succession War.
In 3056 Kallon introduced a new variant. This dropped 400 tons and 40 tons of oh so precious cargo and 220 tons of fuel for modernised guns. The Combine ships at Tomori did not follow suit and frankly I can’t blame them. By the 3050s Vengeances are considered “rare”. Mercenary captains are able to charge exorbitant rates and more are in the hands of state actors.
The Jihad was a busy time for the Vengeance. In 3076 Salvatore Inc. had rebuilt its Vengeance line in conjunction with Kallon, naturally building the 3056 variant. Around 3080 a heavily customised Vengance 2682 began touring the Magistracy as the private flagship of the Ebon Magistrate. It was a bit of a mystery where this ship came from until a production variant showed up in 3083. Reverse engineered by Earthwerks Ltd. (Ares) the Vengeance DC reduced the fighter bays to a single wing in exchange for Piranhas, LRMs and AMS. This would go on to be the Canopian Magistracy and Capellan Confederation’s default heavy assault DropShip.

So what do we get with a Vengeance? Basically you get 40 aerospace fighters and a trio of small craft. Nothing else really matters. Contrary to reputation the Vengeance actually does have a useful fuel load. What it lacks is the cargo bays for armour and ammunition. It can manage multiple peaceful patrols or a single heavy combat strike. For ongoing combat operations the Vengeance desperately needs supporting cargo DropShips. This has the potential to come back and bite it hard.
DropShips and JumpShips goes into extensive detail about the internal structure of the Vengeance. Basically it is a huge cargo bay running up the skyscraper structure of the DropShip with light bracing walls down the middle and ASF bays down the sides. The stubby structures on the sides are launch and recovery bays.  The position of the engine means that it must be shut down while recovering fighters.
Compared to the well balanced Titan I keep coming back to the idea of Vengeances as defensive platforms. They have to sit close to supply assets and have a low sortie rate. Yet they can manage CAP and patrol operations well enough. In the Vengeance the Hegemony gave the Great Houses a strong carrier with very limited offensive capabilities. Only the destruction of the Succession Wars moved it into an offensive position.
In the post Succession War world the Vengeance becomes annoying. There is a huge gap in capability between it and the Leopard CV, the only other carrier DropShip for most nations. More problematic, 40 ASF are too many for balanced gaming. It is like bringing a battalion to a tabletop game. It is too unwieldy for a playable game. And this is at a time when WarShips are being removed for bringing battalion level firepower to games.
The Vengeance DC and Danai Centrella differ from the earlier Vengeances by sacrificing 22 fighters for weapons. The conventional weapons are rearranged; they gain sub capital missiles, infantry, more cargo, and a small NCSS. They differ from each other with the Danai Centrella using Enhanced LRMs. As assault platforms they are about equal to an Overlord A3. They get some nice initiative and spotting bonuses I guess.

Using a Vengeance is pretty simple. The big carrier variants dump their fighters then run. Keep the stern to the target because that is where all the big guns are. The DC reverses this because its big weapons are forward. Indeed it wants to get about 20 hexes away from any fighter battle so it can use its Piranhas. While it has better armour, this does expose it to bum rushes.

Killing a Vengeance is a question of catching it. The DC has to get that little bit too close and is a little bit too slow to escape in a hurry if it needs to. In theory the carriers are able to stand off. Mind you, do it right and you can get the Vengeance running and force it to leave its fighters far behind.

[oldfart3025]

The Vengeance class makes for a good choice in dropship CVs for a mutually supporting battlegroup, with a Capital ship as the core. In our games, each Warship will usually have two to four attached, depending on the type of Capital vessel. Combined with assault ships, auxiliary CVs, and PWS escorts, you have one hell of a tough nut to crack.

[Diablo48]

The Vengeance class makes for a good choice in dropship CVs for a mutually supporting battlegroup, with a Capital ship as the core. In our games, each Warship will usually have two to four attached, depending on the type of Capital vessel. Combined with assault ships, auxiliary CVs, and PWS escorts, you have one hell of a tough nut to crack.

And then there is the Potemkin Supercarrier.  25 DropShip collars times 40 ASFs per Vengeance gives you a staggering 1000 ASFs and the cargo to support them all on a single hull.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Compared to the well balanced Titan I keep coming back to the idea of Vengeances as defensive platforms. They have to sit close to supply assets and have a low sortie rate. Yet they can manage CAP and patrol operations well enough. In the Vengeance the Hegemony gave the Great Houses a strong carrier with very limited offensive capabilities. Only the destruction of the Succession Wars moved it into an offensive position.

It makes me think of less a fighter 'carrier' than a fighter 'tender' - it's got storage and repair bays, but it's not expected to be doing anything long-term and isn't really a combat vessel.  I almost feel like the fighter bays are simply there for literal transport, that momentary jump between systems and then the short trip to a new station - with the option to combat-launch everything at the jumppoint if you have to, compared to cargo-unloading the fighters.  If you're moving birds in safe areas, use a Mule; if you're going to be anywhere near a combat zone use a Vengeance just in case.

Personally I'd like to pull four of the fighter bays for three 12-ship squadrons, and 600 tons more supplies to make it an actual patrol boat.

In the post Succession War world the Vengeance becomes annoying. There is a huge gap in capability between it and the Leopard CV, the only other carrier DropShip for most nations.

Bless the PTBs for the Nekohonou.

[glitterboy2098]

its not often that i feel less informed about a unit after reading a *otW, but that is what this managed. i had to go to Sarna to get actual info on the unit itself.. because pretty much no specs are given in the article.

the Vengeance is 10,000 tons, which is roughly on par with the mech carrying overlord dropship. it is an Aerodyne dropship, which gives it an advantage in combat since it basically can be treated like a big fighter weapons arc wise. armament is fairly simple. 2 PPC's, 4 LRM20's, 1 LRM-10, 3 AC-5's, 5 large lasers, and 16 medium lasers, cooled by 121 single heatsinks. most of this arsenal is in the nose and wings, giving it a nasty punch up front. it has a 2/3 thrust curve, some what sluggish compared to most assault dropships, but direct combat is not the primary purpose of this vessel. that is found in its 40 fighter bays. while an odd number given the 2/3/3 structure the inner sphere uses for its fighter units (where a full regiment/wing is 18 fighters, allowing a Vengeance to carry two full wings plus an extra 4 fighters) this is probably the single greatest concentration of fighter's on a ship the inner Sphere had since the demise of the star league's warships. three small craft bays are also present, which is handly given its drive limitations. (see below)
the design of these fighter bays is interesting in that they are described as running the length of the ship, with fighters launching out one end and recovering on the other. from the art, these are two projecting hangers. which means that all of you Battlestar Galactica fans can start cheering. :) because effectively, that is how this dropship operates its fighters.
Fuel is 500 tons, which provides a fairly good endurance at 271 days, but don't expect to be flying a lot of sorties after any long intrasystem trips, those 40 fighters can suck down over 200 tons of fuel, given the typical 5 tons on most IS fighters. without some sort of replenishment vessel, your fuel can run out quick running anything other than a basic CAP. speaking of replenishment, with only 2/3 thrust, this vessel cannot get from ground to orbit so any refueling and resupply will by necessity have to take place in space, because any Vengeance that goes down to a planets surface isn't going to be coming back up again. Cargo is only 250 tons, which means Quartermaster's will really have to keep in mind your ratio of bullets to beans, because you barely have enough room to fit food, ammo, and spare parts.. in general your only going to be able to carry 2 of the 3 in sufficient numbers. and forget about carrying extra fuel for the fighters.

the upgrade by Kallon Industries added 22 heat sinks (singles?) and upgraded the PPC's to ER models, added Artemis IV to the missile launchers, and slapped in a Gauss rifle on the nose for good measure. this greatly boosts the effctive engagement range of the vessel, and boosts the over all damage, but as mentioned in the Original Post, the sacrifices made to fit this enhancement in make it somewhat less effective at its main role.

while i don't play aerospace much, i'd say that from a deployment perspective, a Vengeance shouldn't go anywhere without a good sized cargo dropship to haul more fuel, ammo, and spare parts. if unable to do that, try to bring an airwing with mostly energy boats, so you can devote less of your cargo space to ammo.

[drakensis]

The guns are hot, the hull is ringing,
The engines sing the sound of triumph;
And every one aboard awaits
A prize upon the high horizon.
Hand and weapon! Heart and power!
Cry it with the voice of Empire!
Victory and prize and plunder!
Vengeance flies at morning!

- The Final Reflection, John M. Ford

[Frabby]

We've had two threads here inspecting the Vengeance from pretty much every angle between them:

- So How in the World Does a Vengeance Work? and
- How a Vengeance-class carrier works!

And yes, the result shows that the Vengeance isn't an independent carrier so much as a pure deployment vehicle or mobile launch pad - it has negligible endurance and is unsuitable for independent operations. What it does is add pure fighter carrying capacity, you'll have to look after supplies yourself. In this sense it's not unlike the classic 'Mech carriers, by the way - the Union and Overlord have insufficient fuel and cargo space to be viable raiders, they are pure deployment vehicles. (Really, it's usually overlooked that especially the Union is a poor raider... but that's for another article.)

When you think of WarShip hardpoints as OmniCollars and DropShips as "OmniPods", the Vengeance is an extra launch bay in the way a Pentagon is extra guns and a Mule is extra fuel/supplies.

It's just the kind of DropShip you'd put on your warfleet's collars when jumping into an enemy system with the first wave (the second wave being 'Mech carriers to break through to the planet, the third being supply train ships with all the fuel, ammo and spare parts).

All the Vengeance was designed to do is launch its fighters, and bugger off. You probably don't want to commit the ship itself to combat like you would a Leopard CV or a Titan. It is a support vessel that shines when you jump into a "hot" jump point and need to launch clouds of aerospace fighters quickly to secure space superiority. On its own, without support freighters, it is pretty much gimped.

[DoctorMonkey]

As the Vengeance will never go into atmosphere and hopefully never combat, I'd like to permanently mate one to a Mule for supplies and maybe some improvised mess halls

[Jellico]

its not often that i feel less informed about a unit after reading a *otW, but that is what this managed. i had to go to Sarna to get actual info on the unit itself.. because pretty much no specs are given in the article.

the Vengeance is 10,000 tons, which is roughly on par with the mech carrying overlord dropship. it is an Aerodyne dropship, which gives it an advantage in combat since it basically can be treated like a big fighter weapons arc wise. armament is fairly simple. 2 PPC's, 4 LRM20's, 1 LRM-10, 3 AC-5's, 5 large lasers, and 16 medium lasers, cooled by 121 single heatsinks. most of this arsenal is in the nose and wings, giving it a nasty punch up front. it has a 2/3 thrust curve, some what sluggish compared to most assault dropships, but direct combat is not the primary purpose of this vessel. that is found in its 40 fighter bays. while an odd number given the 2/3/3 structure the inner sphere uses for its fighter units (where a full regiment/wing is 18 fighters, allowing a Vengeance to carry two full wings plus an extra squadron) this is probably the single greatest concentration of fighter's on a ship the inner Sphere had since the demise of the star league's warships. three small craft bays are also present, which is handly given its drive limitations. (see below)
the design of these fighter bays is interesting in that they are described as running the length of the ship, with fighters launching out one end and recovering on the other. from the art, these are two projecting hangers. which means that all of you Battlestar Galactica fans can start cheering. :) because effectively, that is how this dropship operates its fighters.
Fuel is 500 tons, which provides a fairly good endurance at 271 days, but don't expect to be flying a lot of sorties after any long intrasystem trips, those 40 fighters can suck down over 200 tons of fuel, given the typical 5 tons on most IS fighters. without some sort of replenishment vessel, your fuel can run out quick running anything other than a basic CAP. speaking of replenishment, with only 2/3 thrust, this vessel cannot get from ground to orbit so any refueling and resupply will by necessity have to take place in space, because any Vengeance that goes down to a planets surface isn't going to be coming back up again. Cargo is only 250 tons, which means Quartermaster's will really have to keep in mind your ratio of bullets to beans, because you barely have enough room to fit food, ammo, and spare parts.. in general your only going to be able to carry 2 of the 3 in sufficient numbers. and forget about carrying extra fuel for the fighters.

the upgrade by Kallon Industries added 22 heat sinks (singles?) and upgraded the PPC's to ER models, added Artemis IV to the missile launchers, and slapped in a Gauss rifle on the nose for good measure. this greatly boosts the effctive engagement range of the vessel, and boosts the over all damage, but as mentioned in the Original Post, the sacrifices made to fit this enhancement in make it somewhat less effective at its main role.

while i don't play aerospace much, i'd say that from a deployment perspective, a Vengeance shouldn't go anywhere without a good sized cargo dropship to haul more fuel, ammo, and spare parts. if unable to do that, try to bring an airwing with mostly energy boats, so you can devote less of your cargo space to ammo.

I am not going to give you specifications outside of very specific examples. Too big, too many, and we have TROs for that.

The Vengeance was 10,000 tons in DropShips and JumpShips. This is illegal under the current rules and was increased to 11,400 tons in TRO3057R.

All those weapons you mentioned are not mounted forward. They are mounted in the stern and aft wings. These are clearly defensive for use when the Vengeance is burning away from the fight. In any case it is not a nasty punch, even by DS&JS standards.

Also the thrust rate is 4/6. I don't know where you got 2/3 from, unless they are talking about Gs.

[Diablo48]

I am not going to give you specifications outside of very specific examples. Too big, too many, and we have TROs for that.

The Vengeance was 10,000 tons in DropShips and JumpShips. This is illegal under the current rules and was increased to 11,400 tons in TRO3057R.

All those weapons you mentioned are not mounted forward. They are mounted in the stern and aft wings. These are clearly defensive for use when the Vengeance is burning away from the fight. In any case it is not a nasty punch, even by DS&JS standards.

Also the thrust rate is 4/6. I don't know where you got 2/3 from, unless they are talking about Gs.

It seems like you have just demonstrated exactly why you should give at least the basic numbers in the article.

[Khymerion]

The Vengeance is one of my favorite fighter barges out there.    It is a wonderful defensive platform or something to stage fighters through to get them further out from a proper base for a strike elsewhere.

[Wrangler]

THis is a nice ship, but i don't think its playable as big carrier ship in a normal tactical space game aside from another vessel fill in the fluff gaps or provide source of the fighters swarming the target.   I agree completely. this ship was never meant to work alone in deep black.   I sometimes wonder, why few fighter bays could be shut down to tash additional supplies (no necessary fuel) to keep its wings up with necessary supplies if a cargo vessel isn't available.

The original variant of the ship becoming a rare beast, does bring balance to things while the DC version is more playable as long-range combatant and mother ship to smaller group of fighters.

I sometimes wonder if a Alpha Strike of the Aerotech game would change the roles little bit allow support units like the Vengeance become more useful.

[Khymerion]

It does bring up an interesting question.   Why 40 fighters in a ready action launch state?   Inner Sphere fighter squadrons operate in numbers of 6 so 36 or 42 would have been more appropriate with the fluff and operational doctrines of the setting yet those extra four fighters almost feel like an understrength CAP squadron or replacement fighters though they could have just stripped out the bays for additional cargo and just kept the spare fighters crated as cargo, pulling them out as needed while giving some much needed cargo space for the ship.

[misterpants]

It does bring up an interesting question.   Why 40 fighters in a ready action launch state?   Inner Sphere fighter squadrons operate in numbers of 6 so 36 or 42 would have been more appropriate with the fluff and operational doctrines of the setting yet those extra four fighters almost feel like an understrength CAP squadron or replacement fighters though they could have just stripped out the bays for additional cargo and just kept the spare fighters crated as cargo, pulling them out as needed while giving some much needed cargo space for the ship.

Interestingly enough, the TRO 2750 battleships had this same issue. Texas had 40 fighters, Mckenna has 50, while lighter ships usually had a squadron or a wing of fighters.

I wonder what was going on there.

[sillybrit]

Because they're designs from the early days of the game, predating actual design rules, and the numbers were probably chosen just because they sounded right.

[Khymerion]

Because they're designs from the early days of the game, predating actual design rules, and the numbers were probably chosen just because they sounded right.

I know retcons are horrible things, almost a cardinal sin... but perhaps... a bit here and there might be in order.

[Rage]

It does bring up an interesting question.   Why 40 fighters in a ready action launch state?   Inner Sphere fighter squadrons operate in numbers of 6 so 36 or 42 would have been more appropriate with the fluff and operational doctrines of the setting yet those extra four fighters almost feel like an understrength CAP squadron or replacement fighters though they could have just stripped out the bays for additional cargo and just kept the spare fighters crated as cargo, pulling them out as needed while giving some much needed cargo space for the ship.

It fits Davvie ASF Wings perfectly. They run off 20 per. Also, incidentally, fits a Capellan ASF Wing of 39 and an extra bird for, uh.. something

[Khymerion]

It fits Davvie ASF Wings perfectly. They run off 20 per. Also, incidentally, fits a Capellan ASF Wing of 39 and an extra bird for, uh.. something

Thanks for clearing that up.

[SCC]

One thing that is interesting about this design, it's a Aerodyne design, but for some reason it can't enter the atmosphere.

As for using it, I'd use them in groups of 2 or 3, one carries launches it's fighter loaded down with anti-shipping missiles while the fighters from the other(s) fly escort, nothing says bad day like 40+ anti-shipping missile being launched at your warship at once

[Weirdo]

The DC reverses this because its big weapons are forward. Indeed it wants to get about 20 hexes away from any fighter battle so it can use its Piranhas. While it has better armour, this does expose it to bum rushes.

To avoid exposing a DC to this danger, keep it further back, and use bearings-only launches. You can keep the pressure up on enemy large craft, giving your fighters more leeway in clearing out enemy fighters, and we all know how important winning that furball is in almost any space battle.

[Failure16]

Leaving the Vengeance itself alone for a moment, let us consider solely its carrying capacity. 

While it is true that the embarked spacewing of 40 craft doesn't precisely match canon squadron formations, it might well be that the other four (or more) slots are for things other than purely ASFs.  Carrier airwings often include various planes that fulfill other sundry duties to include aerial-tankers, CSAR craft, AEW/ECM/recon, and COD.  Now, some of those duties might best be fulfilled by Small Craft--and we don't have a need or even rules/equipment for some of those--but it does add in some flexibility to the embarked spacewing. 

Not to mention that the CAG might want his own fighter...

[Diablo48]

It does bring up an interesting question.   Why 40 fighters in a ready action launch state?   Inner Sphere fighter squadrons operate in numbers of 6 so 36 or 42 would have been more appropriate with the fluff and operational doctrines of the setting yet those extra four fighters almost feel like an understrength CAP squadron or replacement fighters though they could have just stripped out the bays for additional cargo and just kept the spare fighters crated as cargo, pulling them out as needed while giving some much needed cargo space for the ship.

It does also have three small craft bays so you could load two of them with gunships like the Aquarius to add a bit of extra mass to your now 42 combat aircraft, and I think it is also possible to load them with ASFs which would completely solve the problem.

[Weirdo]

At this point, small craft are more useful. EW support, SAR, long-range pickets...these are all roles that a Vengeance's wing needs doing, and aside from a very few models of ASF with ECM and Probes for EW work, you need shuttles for them.

[Diablo48]

At this point, small craft are more useful. EW support, SAR, long-range pickets...these are all roles that a Vengeance's wing needs doing, and aside from a very few models of ASF with ECM and Probes for EW work, you need shuttles for them.

While this holds true in the modern era, I am inclined to disagree within the context of when the Vengeance was designed.  It was initially designed to work along side large fleets of heavy naval assets which could detach a screen of small WarShips or large DropShips to perform those duties.  Given this framework, I think it is reasonable to think that those bays may have been intended to serve as additional fighter bays with the ability to also carry other utility vessels in a pinch given that there was a third bay to dedicate to a utility vessel even when using the other two as fighter bays.

[Auren]

Another idea is that you can pick up birds from other squadrons who lost their motherships.

[glitterboy2098]

or they could just be used for spare fighters to replace combat losses or ones down checked due to maintenance.

[Korzon77]

That would be the biggy, IMO.  It's rare to have a squadron (in real life) where one or more planes aren't curently downchecked for some reason, and I doubt Btech would be any different. 

[glitterboy2098]

and i suspect there aren't many easily accessable ways to move a fighter from a cargo bay to a fighter bay..

[SCC]

That would be the biggy, IMO.  It's rare to have a squadron (in real life) where one or more planes aren't curently downchecked for some reason, and I doubt Btech would be any different.

I'd suspect that the PILOTS being down checked for some reason is more likely then the actual airframes. Isn't there a rule about a military unit only ever being at 90% effective strength? There's also the fact that in space, unlike on the ground, clocks between people fighting won't be in sync, meaning that 50% of personal can be assumed to be off-duty at any given time. Sure, you can ruse them out of bed, but chances are that they won't perform properly

[Weirdo]

and i suspect there aren't many easily accessable ways to move a fighter from a cargo bay to a fighter bay..

Sure there are, you just have to take the time to do it. It's how the Cloud Nine operates a full squadron while only having a single fighter cubicle.