BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Black_Knyght on 04 October 2018, 00:10:24
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Regardless of house, what would your consider to be the best GENERAL-PURPOSE Battle Armor type available to Inner Sphere forces during the FedCom Civil War period? Not specialized or mission specific, but best general combats operations kind of Battle Armor.
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That's tough based on what you classify as GP vs Specific. Are all Assault BA specific? Is anything w/ Stealth Armor specific?
Anything that has a Light RR weapon option is probably a contender. (ISS Standard & GDL Standard IIRC)
The Infiltrator-Magnetic is solid for sure.
After those 3 Mediums I'd say the Light-Achilles is a contender.
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By non-specific I mean intended 99% for strictly general combat purposes. Not primarily for covert actions, or mine-laying, or anti-infantry, or infiltration, but like the original Clan Elemental/Toad just a general combat suit of armor. Weight class is a secondary, but minor, factor.
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I think the Longinus is probably the gold standard.
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I think the Longinus is probably the gold standard.
+1
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I think the Longinus is probably the gold standard.
I think that it's probably the best, and if they hadn't insisted on keeping the SRM pack it'd be even better. The Magnetic version from the Blakist tantrums is one of the better variants I've seen, IMO.
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For the battle armor itself . . .
IS Standard BA (LRR), and what should be the Raiden & Cavalier clones.
First, weapon range
Second, jumping ability- which is what puts it over the GDL Std (LRR)
Third, availability of parts/replacements
If we are talking about mechanized warfare . . .
Longinus BA (King David) w/Tac Ops rule in effect
First, weapon range is the best
Second, damage against BA
Third, SRMs for punch when dropped off in the right place
Fourth, I think its better armored than the IS Std but I cannot find anything to back that
Longinus C . . . did we ever get a RS for that? Says it lacks integrated Harjel . . . does that mean its structure is IS rather than Clan? They put the Advanced SRM on it, which makes it better to get that big alpha strike . . . still use the mod weapon mount or does it sport a AP Gauss?
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i'm a big fan of the longinus too, but here are a few others for consideration
Fa Shih - modular weapons mount (Flamer, MG, SL, LRR, or a Light TAG), magnetic clamps, mines, mine clearance, jumps
Fenrir - quad, but has some fun configs like a mortar. the SRM-4 squad is dangerous
Purifier - when you need a +5 just for hanging out in heavy woods
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The Longinus offers good mix of firepower and range. The David Gauss Rifle config isn't powerful but has reasonable range, while the SRM-2 provides some better firepower. Of course you can't jump with the SRMs... but that's a minor issue if you have Omnis to carry the Longinus (even though it may still mean you need to spend the SRMs earlier rather than later).
The Longinus can be regarded as the gold-standard really, as the IS Standard, Cavalier and Raiden all have lesser firepower and equal durability (the Raiden does have MRM config if you need more range but since people don't like the +1 to hit penalty, it probably isn't enough to elevate the Raiden over the other standard-likes).
If transportation isn't an issue, the Grenadier has some merit. It has limited mobility but with equal durability (and harder to hit thanks to Stealth Armor) to Inner Sphere standard-type suits, and much more firepower.
Oft seemingly forgotten, there's also the Trinity suits. They date from '66, so they are part of the FedCom Civil War era. At 8 points their armor is pretty good, and they have okay-to-good firepower (especially if TacOps rules for Man-Portable Plasma Rifles are in), but they're limited to ground movement only, which limits their use as genera purpose suits. Good in cities though.
The Gray Death Standard is similar, trading jump jets for increased ground mobility, AP mount and Improved Sensors, making it a good city fighter but not quite a GP suit, perhaps.
Finally, the Fa Shih and Purifier offer neat tricks with their mines and stealth, respectively, but they lack durability a bit, especially the Purifier though its stealth does off-set this to a degree. Good suits, but ultimately they are a bit more specialized. Also in this category is the Infiltrator, which offers good firepower and range with its Magshot but it isn't quite tough enough for general purpose combat suit. The Fenrir gets a mention here too, for its mobility and firepower, though its pitiful armor means it really isn't a general purpose unit.
All in all, i vote for the Longinus.
Longinus BA (King David) w/Tac Ops rule in effect
Do note the suit has a David Gauss Rifle, not King David.
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Okay . . . is the King David the infantry version? I mess that up a lot- especially since IIRC its called a 'light' gauss rifle. I am pretty sure the guass the Longinus mounts gets that Tac Ops anti-BA rule.
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Okay . . . is the King David the infantry version? I mess that up a lot- especially since IIRC its called a 'light' gauss rifle. I am pretty sure the guass the Longinus mounts gets that Tac Ops anti-BA rule.
There is a BA King David as well though i can't off-hand remember which suit uses it (some FWL suit for sure). And there are infantry versions of both weapons.
Only the King David, Bear Hunter Superheavy-AC and BA Plasma Rifle gain the TacOps anti-BA bonus that replaces standard damage. The damage values are 3D6, 1D6, and 2+1D6, respectively.
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There is a BA King David as well though i can't off-hand remember which suit uses it (some FWL suit for sure). And there are infantry versions of both weapons.
Only the King David, Bear Hunter Superheavy-AC and BA Plasma Rifle gain the TacOps anti-BA bonus that replaces standard damage. The damage values are 3D6, 1D6, and 2+1D6, respectively.
Fa Shih has a king david for sure
Achileus, Leonidas, Longinus, Quirinus, Trinity (Ying Long BC3), and Shen Long have david variants
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Fa Shih has a king david for sure
Achileus, Leonidas, Longinus, Quirinus, Trinity (Ying Long BC3), and Shen Long have david variants
Looks like Fa Shih Support has a King David, but standard Fa Shih doesn't as it doesn't have enough mass available.
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i'll take your word for it as i was unaware there was a difference between the two
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Phalanx then . . .
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i'll take your word for it as i was unaware there was a difference between the two
Yeah, the Fa Shih Support variant ditches the mine laying and clearing systems, while keeping MagClamps. All the extra weight goes for increased modular weapon mount capacity. Both configs of the Support (Plasma Rifle and King David) waste quite a bit of mass, so they don't exactly make great general purpose combat suits either. Useful for anti-BA ops though.
Phalanx then . . .
Oh, this is it. It does mount a King David in its A configuration.
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Fenrir - quad, but has some fun configs like a mortar. the SRM-4 squad is dangerous
The Fenrir's lack of armor is too big a liablity. It's good primarily just for ambushing and that's about it.
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The Fenrir's lack of armor is too big a liablity. It's good primarily just for ambushing and that's about it.
Also, can´t make leg or anti-mech attacks, can´t jump, can´t hitch a ride on omnis. All big no-nos for a general purpose unit.
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Further, the Fenrir has yet another issue that makes it poor GP suit, one the Grenadier i suggested earlier shares. As assault suits, they're difficult to move around even ignoring their own mobility issues and lack of ability to ride Omnis.
OK, under standard rules, each suit takes only a ton. But if you do play with the rule that makes suit require cargo space equal to their mass, an assault BA squad requires 8 tons of cargo space, which isn't exactly common.
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So, a general purpose BA suit must have, at least, the following traits:
- must be medium weight, at most, to allow for anti-mech attacks and fitting into 4 ton infantry compartments
- must have jump jets
- must have at least one weapon that does at least point of damage to mechs per trooper (i.e. not anti-personnel weapons); that weapon must not have limited shots under tabletop rules (i.e. not a missile weapon)
Did I forget anything? Are any of these points debatable?
And which suits fit that description?
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I think for the weight you need to include 'mechanized' which means it has the right type of hands/claws to hold onto Omnis.
Should it be able to stand up to a IS Large Laser hit?
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Should it be able to stand up to a IS Large Laser hit?
I think, yes. IS LPL is less important, the 9th point is mostly additional buffer in practice. The LL-threshold leaves out the Fa Shih, Purifier, Infiltrator, which is really appropriate as those are somewhat specialized.
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the Grey Death Stahndard is avaliable to everyone and pretty general purpose, followed by the ISBA. all others are pretty faction specific. if you have access to Comstar or the FRR and it is post 3062, you might want to try getting your hands on some Kobold Suits. they are light Battle armor but they basically have a "Free" additional gun thanks to the Squad support mount.
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Fa Shih can hitch a ride on anything, has full jump movement at all times, can carry a recoilless rifle & drop mines. That's pretty much peak, if you ask me.
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But dies to a IS LL or Clan ER Med?
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But dies to a IS LL or Clan ER Med?
Like MadCap said, it's good all around at everything. Dying included. :D
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But dies to a IS LL or Clan ER Med?
What your BA can survive is irrelevant if you can't get it where you want it. If you're putting those weapons into my BA, I'm actually kind of thankful. My BA support my other units. I don't expect them to be hanging out all by their lonesome!
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Have a soft spot for the Grey Death Standard but if Jump Jets are a must, you can do worse than the IS Standard family.
Longinus is probably is the all around best.
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Longinus is probably is the all around best.
My primary complaint with the Longinus is the way it has only a single MP until it fires it's SRM rack. You're stuck lugging around a lot of firepower you may never be in range to deliver without an APC. That might be fine when you're squatting down over a defensive objective, but the definition of "general purpose" to me implies offensive as well as defensive operations. A battle armor I can get to the fight means more to me than what is essentially an under-armed assault suit that becomes an unimpressive general suit upon jettisoning it's main firepower.
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Fa Shih can hitch a ride on anything, has full jump movement at all times, can carry a recoilless rifle & drop mines. That's pretty much peak, if you ask me.
Well, it could have stealth... and come in six packs... seriously four man squads are just moronic, but yeah, it's the Fa Shih.
Anyway, i'm surprised by the love for the Longinus, and feel like i'm flatly missing something, probably the tac ops rules. I'd say the Achileus, Fa Shih, Trinity, Phalanx, have it beat (GD infiltrator? passing on stealth for BA is about like passing on endo for mechs), and at least maybe the Raiden/Standard.
For instance LL doesn't really matter because a) most BA squads (i.e. the ones that can't shrug off a gauss hit) have a combat effective lifespan of maybe the second turn they end up on the wrong side of the target numbers, and b) lack of hit locations. (Again combat effectiveness & four man squads suck. Not only would I put my money on the Achileus being useful longer, but even without stealth we're really talking about getting to run a half-dead one man squad of Longinus).
In the same vein for general combat operations the SRM is more liability than asset. Indeed it is specialization. The Longius is a deploy early, and strike from ambush specialized Raiden/Standard. Of course slightly meta you could ditch them whenever desired so that it's just value added, but slightly meta so are mines, and in particular magnets & stealth.
As well, Raiden/Standard are cheaper/parts/few years more in production.
The thing is a Longinus squad isn't an Elemental squad, and elementals aren't general combat, they're mech support. Which is how I get to Fa Shih (kinda have to with the magnets). If you're saying 'it could be a J.Edgar, or it could be a King Crab coming over that hill, good luck'. Well again Fa Shih, or something with stealth. The Longinus has one trick, and it's single use.
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On the contrary, the Longinus has extra firepower. Yes, you're limited to moving one MP unless you fire or eject it, but you do have an option for extra firepower with the suit. If you cannot make use of it, you still got a suit that is equivalent to other general purpose combat suits (no LRR but David Gauss has a bit more range so it sorta balances out), if you can make use of the SRM, you have a superior suit.
Other GP suits do not have this option, and thus aren't quite as good.
Fa Shih is a good suit but at 7 armor it is vulnerable to the quite common large laser which is a mark against it as a general purpose combat suit. Not a major issue (could be worse, like the Fenris), but it is there. (Also under standard rules mines are out of question so this reduces the value of Fa Shih, but admittedly this isn't really a fault of the suit.)
EDIT Personally i don't regard "GP" here as meaning solo combatant but just denoting a suit that isn't really specialized. Naturally BA work in conjunction with other units.
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I consider the Infiltrator MK II general purpose. It doesn't have the firepower of the Longinus or the armor. But it has stealth armor and if you aren't hit all that often, that pays for itself. The Magshot reaches out to 9 hexes at all times.
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Its why I said IS Std or clone w/o transport, Longinus w/ transport . . .
Its also why I wish we had a Longinus that duplicated the Asura- give it some RLs which can reach farther.
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I would go Longinus as the best as well for Inner Sphere suits around that time frame...it's a better Inner Sphere Standard, as it has the same armor, mobility (once the SRM pack is fired and dropped), and mounts an AP weapon in the LA...
Personally though, as the small laser is the only 200 kg weapon I can think of that takes up only 1 slot, I'd have personally done some things different with the design...
Ruger