Author Topic: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)  (Read 20393 times)

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« on: 27 January 2013, 04:08:54 »
So me and the roommate are getting a group together to play through a campaign and learn the rules as we go. The roommate's a smart guy. He's a medievalist working on his masters thesis and handed me about 3 pages of detailed background material describing the equipment, appearance, and story of a River Gnome (described, I think in D&D as a sub-race?). The character would be a barbarian armorer; a turtle in his shell with strong defensive capability but low-ish strength. He wanted mithral scaled-armor to start along with "adamantine-steel" helmet and an Iberian style scutum. I've tenatively allowed mithral armor and a large darkwood shield (both downsized to small). I don't know enough of the mechanics yet to judge; is this unbalanced? How unbalanced is it?

It's really good to see his imagination charged up about this, but it's sending up a lot of red flags for group interaction and fair play. How can I accommodate his wants and still put a good L.1 team together?
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

Aokarasu

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2013
  • Commander, Musei Yuuchi
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #1 on: 27 January 2013, 12:01:37 »
What level are the characters starting at? What level of magic do you see the campaign being- low, medium, high? If you allow him (and by extension, the rest of the party) to have that sort of gear, understand any combat encounters you put them in will have to be scaled up a notch or two, to include better than average equipment for the baddies.

Alternatively, you could have a situation where they need to swim to survive - he'll need to ditch that gear or drown. If he attempts to doff it and haul it with while swimming, then he will risk drowning and greatly reduce his speed, making it all but guaranteed he'll get caught by what or who ever is chasing them.

Alternatively, part two, the gear could actually be stolen/looted and he was given a false history to cover it. Alternatively, part three, the gear could be part of a long-standing feud between his family/clan and another, and killing the current owner to claim it could earn someone a lot of prestige. Cue lots of nights of less-than-ideal sleep, ambushes with pitfall traps, etc.

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #2 on: 27 January 2013, 12:26:55 »
Its L1 for everyone. I'd hoped to run through a published campaign (Runelords or something similar) to help get my feet wet and develop a feel for the system. Here's the character. What I need to know is how unbalanced the equipment makes things at the outset. He's agreed that heirloom equipment can't be sold so there's no monetary value. It's just the stats that concern me. You can kind of see what he's getting at as a tactical goal: low strength but a hard shell. The character and the party should still find challenge and risk near the beginning.

Code: [Select]
Name:       Otrix
Race:       Gnome
Player:     Chris
Classes:    Barbarian1
Hit Points: 13
Experience: 0 / 2000
Alignment:  Neutral Good
Vision:     Low-light
Speed:      Walk 20 ft.
Languages:  Common, Gnome, Sylvan
Stat    Score   Mod
STR      9       (-1)
DEX      12      (+1)
CON      12      (+1)
INT      10      (+0)
WIS      16      (+3)
CHA      14      (+2)
-------------------------- Skills --------------------------
Skill                   Total   Rnk     Stat    Msc
Acrobatics               -2       0.0      1        -3
Acrobatics (Jump)        -6       0.0      1        -7
Appraise                 1        1.0      0        0
Bluff                    2        0.0      2        0
Climb                    0        1.0      -1       0
Craft (Armor)            6        1.0      0        5
Craft (Untrained)        0        0.0      0        0
Diplomacy                2        0.0      2        0
Disguise                 2        0.0      2        0
Escape Artist            -2       0.0      1        -3
Fly                      0        0.0      1        -1
Heal                     3        0.0      3        0
Intimidate               2        0.0      2        0
Knowledge (Nature)       4        1.0      0        3
Perception               5        0.0      3        2
Perform (Untrained)      2        0.0      2        0
Ride                     -2       0.0      1        -3
Sense Motive             3        0.0      3        0
Stealth                  2        0.0      1        1
Survival                 3        0.0      3        0
Swim                     0        1.0      -1       0
                                                   
-------------------------- Feats ---------------------------
Agile Maneuvers
CMB Output
-------------------- Special Abilities ---------------------

------------------------ Templates -------------------------

-------------------------- Combat --------------------------
    Total / Touch / Flat Footed
AC: 19    / 15    / 18
Initiative:   +1
BAB:          +1
Melee tohit:  +1
Ranged tohit: +3
Fortitude:    +3
Reflex:       +1
Will:         +3
Unarmed attack:
to hit:       +1
damage:       1d2-1
critical:     20/x2
Longsword (Small):
to hit:       +1
damage:       1d6-1
critical:     19-20/x2
Blowgun (Small):
to hit:       +3
damage:       1d1
critical:     20/x2
range:        20 ft.
Dart (Small):
to hit:       +3
damage:       1d3
critical:     20/x2
range:        20 ft.
Hammer (Light/Small):
to hit:       +1
damage:       1d3-1
critical:     20/x2
Hammer (Light/Small/Thrown):
to hit:       +3
damage:       1d3
critical:     20/x2
range:        20 ft.
--------------------- Special Abilities --------------------
 
------------------------- Equipment ------------------------
Name                                            QTY LBS
Longsword (Small)                                1 2lbs
Outfit (Peasant's) (Small)                       1 0lbs
Mithral Shirt +1 (Small)                         1 5lbs Special: 30 hp/inch, hardness 15
Old Traveling Cloak                              1 0lbs Special: (Cloak (Add TypeClothing))
Darkwood Shield (Small)                          1 2lbs Special: 10 hp/inch, hardness 5
Backpack (Small) (20.25 lbs.)
   Artisan's Tools (Armor)                       1 5lbs
   Sauce Pan (Iron)                              1 2lbs Special: (Pot (Iron))
   Shovel or Spade                               1 8lbs
   Tindertwig                                    10 0lbs
   Whetstone                                     1 1lbs
   Blowgun (Small)                               1 0lbs
   Dart (Small)                                  2 0lbs
   Darts (Blowgun/10) (Small)                    1 0lbs
   Drinking Shell                                1 0lbs Special: (Mug or Tankard (Clay))
   Fishhook                                      10 0lbs
   Flint and Steel                               1 0lbs
   Hammer (Light/Small)                          1 1lbs
   Rations (Trail/Per Day) (Small)               5 1lbs
Blowgun (Small) (0.5 lbs.)
Drinking Shell (0.5 lbs.)
Sauce Pan (Iron) (2 lbs.)
Pouch (Belt) (Small) (0.96500003 lbs.)
   Coin (Copper Piece)                           6 0lbs
   Coin (Gold Piece)                             31 0lbs
   Coin (Silver Piece)                           5 0lbs
Total weight carried:
Current load:         Medium
Encumbrance
Light:  22   
Medium: 45   
Heavy:  67
--------------------------- Magic --------------------------

Innate Spells

I have further concerns about the gameplay, but I think I'd like to treat that by pm.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

God and Davion

  • Excelencia Steiner
  • Administrator
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5961
  • This place for rent
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #3 on: 27 January 2013, 12:36:29 »
A Barbarian Gnome with Strength 9?  :o :o :o :o
We are back again... but we never forget Albatross

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #4 on: 27 January 2013, 12:40:28 »
A Barbarian Gnome with Strength 9?  :o :o :o :o

Yeah, the stat goal was essentially a turtle with rabies. How would you rebalance that to achieve the goal and still maintain a strong "I am an armorer descended from armorers and we swim with the otters and worship fish" sensibility?
« Last Edit: 27 January 2013, 12:41:59 by Bedwyr »
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25626
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #5 on: 27 January 2013, 12:41:41 »
Does he realize that with those stats on a melee oriented class, his character is a liability to the team?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #6 on: 27 January 2013, 12:50:31 »
Does he realize that with those stats on a melee oriented class, his character is a liability to the team?

No. Because we're both completely new to the system. I strongly suspect there's a large imbalance but I can't marshall a deep knowledge of the system in defense of my suspicions. Also I think his instincts impose the RP over and above game balance and then he expect me to manage that effectively as a GM. Here. I'll go ahead and post a chunk of the character background. It'll help give context to the issue:

Quote
As a gnomish armorer, Otrix has taken care to equip himself well. His helmet (based partially on a Viking style [the eye guards], partially on the Sutton Hoo helmet but with a splayed neck-guard more like a Roman imperial-type legionary helmet, itself, like the scutum, of La Tène typological origin / kinship) was forged by and for himself out and steel, complete with a nasal and pieces surrounding the eyes but with slits on the sides of the brow-pieces to allow his long, fiery-orange gnomish eyebrows to extend un-impeded. Ornamental fins on the side also serve to protect his protruding ears, with adamantine-iron alloy reinforcement at the point where they join the main part of the helmet. The metal has been blued – and, as it were, “greened” and “pinked” – and accented with silver and a little gold. The ornamentation, including the perch-fin crest, is thoroughly piscine and is matched by the other pieces of armor. He tends to let it go unpolished for long periods, obsessive as he may be about other things.

      The knee-length, sleeveless hauberk is formed of a simple tunic of an elvish fabric both durable and light-weight to which he has re-sewn ancient mithril scale mail in a fish-scale pattern. Over this he wears an heirloom iridescent deep-blue dragonhide pixane for added protection about the shoulders since the head and shoulders are most expected to receive blows from above, dealt at close range by inimical big people. His right arm, that is, his swordarm is protected by two pieces of dragonhide armor: a brassart on the forearm and a spaulder on the upper arm, from the same animal as the pixane. His legs and feet are usually left completely bare, though in cooler weather he wears broughs and blue-and-brown tartan trews.

      Otrix’ hauberk, pixane and arm-pieces have been in the family since time nearly out of mind. It is all that is known to remain of one of five or six full suits of armor made fashioned by and for a band of heroic gnomish paladins who themselves belonged to one of the early generations after the primeval exodus from the Feywild, prior to the sundering of the dwarf race and well prior to the rise of the halfling race. In fact, like as not some of the other suits or their constituent parts are or were in the possession of the dwarves, legitimately or not. As narcissistic as gnomes can be when it comes to their personal nomenclature and genealogies, Otrix’ mother’s mother’s father never had a clear idea exactly how the family had come into possession of the artifacts, much less if and how they were related to the first wearer, but it is certainly a prized heirloom and it has been an ideal reference for smiths in the family for thousands of years, no doubt. To part with it in any way would be unthinkable, even for someone as erratic and whimsical as he.

      The dragonhide once belonged to a primarily aquatic wyrm of wet elemental force, slain by the gnomish paladins once upon a time. To this was added their mithril scale-mail, forged when gnomes were the primary miners and smiths of such metal, and when any gnome child of twelve years had the metallurgical and often alchemical skill of at least a journeyman craftsman today. The shirt to which the scales are sewn is not original. In fact, even the one which Otrix received was probably a replacement. With the aid of his elders, Otrix obtained the fabric, the thread and the needle and little blade of adamant alloy in a secret negotiation with the elves and then proceeded to painstakingly cut loose the scales, polish them and sew them on the new shirt in a fish-scale pattern, more or less in their old order, dings and all (no doubt these were obtained in legendary feats, although no one remembers which ones precisely). The straps on the arm-pieces have also been mended or replaced by him, mostly using hemp, of which he is quite fond.

      Apart from his armor, Otrix usually wears nothing at all – apart from a shiny bit of jewelry or a festive crown of water-lilies and, often, his utility belt with a small apron flap to protect the “land down under” from a stray spark – relying on a combination of his natural fur and his general disregard for civilized sensibilities. After all, he is quite at home in the water with no more apparel than his totemic animal, the otter and, like the amphibious mammal, he gets antsy after a while should he stray over a day’s journey from a body of water of some kind. When mixing in social company with non-nudist folk of other races or other, more “civilized” sub-races of gnomes, he either wears his hauberk with or without pixane (preferred) or throws on a simple woad-blue sleeveless tunic which he keeps on hand for just such a purpose and perhaps also the ratty, brown, blue, grey and green poncho to which he is somewhat attached, although it tends to repel gnomes of the fresh and fetching feminine variety. He also has a red Phrygian-style cap. He may be a river gnome, and he may be a tad eccentric in any company, and, what is more, back in the Feywild ages ago, gnomes could run around stark naked (and stark raving mad as his grandmother often put it) with crazy hair and no one so much as dreamt of wearing headgear, but he doesn’t dispense entirely with long-standing tradition: gnomes wear pointy red hats. Moreover, he generally avoids wearing products of small, fur-bearing animals and all manner of deer and antelope as a matter of gnomish principle. Taken together, he has no suitable attire at all for a formal dinner, it is true – then again, he’s a barbarian and this isn’t Toastmasters.

      The last piece of his gear is perhaps the most characteristic: the large shield. Although for a normal-sized person, this shield would only amount to a sort of buckler, on him, it is nearly the size of a “tower shield”. It is lighter, however, and worn differently. (In fact, it is patterned on combination of the oblong shield favored by “Celtic” warriors of the La Tène archaeological culture or what the Romans knew as the scutum and the Thracian peltastos.) It is fashioned so as to appear like a fish with its tail swishing slightly outward; the frame, central spine, “fins”, “tail” and boss (see the La Tène shields recovered in bogs and in Al-Fayyum) are blackwood with a tough tapir hide (the ornery rascal had it coming) stretched over the frame, embossed with a scale pattern and brightly colored, with special detail given to the eye and teeth – after all, the more distracting the shield is, the better. Otrix’ typical attack is to brush upward with the shield while thrusting out and a little up with his shortsword, since he is normally pitted against a taller foe.



Attempts to change equipment or stats I fear will result in frustration at the abridgement of his well-though-out work on the character.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25626
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #7 on: 27 January 2013, 13:23:12 »
The problem is, he's thinking out a whole lot of unimportant details and not thinking out what his character is contributing to the party.  Pathfinder, being a derivative of D&D, is a very combat oriented RPG system and if you want your character to be something other than The Load the character needs to be built to be an efficient killing machine.  Because armor doesn't make you more resistant to damage, it just makes you harder to hit, being a heavily armored character doesn't by default make you a good tank.  The ability to hit hard is also quite necessary.

As is, he's effectively trying to create a character that combines the speed of an Urbanmech with the firepower of a Charger.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #8 on: 27 January 2013, 13:33:26 »
I think his frame of reference for combat is wrong, not that he isn't thinking about the system. Like I said, we're both newbs. Do you have any suggestions that could fit the character paradigm (gnome, river, armorer) and still be a contributor to the party?
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

cavingjan

  • Spelunca Custos
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4470
    • warrenborn
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #9 on: 27 January 2013, 13:44:20 »
Does Pathfinder have any very short adventures and predesigned characters? Before embarking on a campaign, I would try something that is predesigned. Have everybody pick a character and run through the adventure. Have them pick a second character and then run through a second short one. Then start with their characters and your adventure. This will allow mistakes to be made and deaths to happen without people getting upset about them losing a characters. It also gives you as GM a chance to figure out the system. I wish we had done that when we jumped into D&D 3.5 from 2. It was a couple of sessions before we figured out we had been playing certain rules wrong and a character or two should have still been alive. It also explained why we walked over a larger party in about 3 turns too.

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #10 on: 27 January 2013, 13:48:51 »
Does Pathfinder have any very short adventures and predesigned characters? Before embarking on a campaign, I would try something that is predesigned. Have everybody pick a character and run through the adventure. Have them pick a second character and then run through a second short one. Then start with their characters and your adventure. This will allow mistakes to be made and deaths to happen without people getting upset about them losing a characters. It also gives you as GM a chance to figure out the system. I wish we had done that when we jumped into D&D 3.5 from 2. It was a couple of sessions before we figured out we had been playing certain rules wrong and a character or two should have still been alive. It also explained why we walked over a larger party in about 3 turns too.

That's probably for the best and what I was hoping for. Instead of designing my own stuff, I'd use a pre-gen campaign and improvise as confidence allowed. I wanted my buddy to roll up a character so we could both dig into the stats and, well, it struck a spark in him and he went to town. So it kind of got away from me. Note that I'm a sucker for good story and RP as much as I'm concerned about game and stat balance.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #11 on: 27 January 2013, 16:05:39 »
What about a defensive tank? Can a character who just "takes it" but doesn't deal much damage back be very useful?
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25626
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #12 on: 27 January 2013, 16:16:34 »
Not unless you, as GM, are planning to run most enemies as being tactically limited to attacking the first thing that gets in front of them instead of prioritizing what they attack based on threat (in other words, enemies never try to geek the mage).  Among other things, those stats lock him out of many of the best feat options for his class.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #13 on: 27 January 2013, 16:21:43 »
Not unless you, as GM, are planning to run most enemies as being tactically limited to attacking the first thing that gets in front of them instead of prioritizing what they attack based on threat (in other words, enemies never try to geek the mage).  Among other things, those stats lock him out of many of the best feat options for his class.

If you were in my shoes and the player really really really wanted a river gnome berserker, what would you do to rehabilitate the guy?
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25626
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #14 on: 27 January 2013, 16:51:34 »
Say something along the lines of "I'm sorry, but as is I don't think your character concept is going to work very well," and offer to help him make a better functioning character that still fits his ideas.  (FYI, with only a 12 Constitution, he's really not going to be able to take hits terribly well, either).  What he's doing right now is setting himself up as a character who's not going to be able to pull his own weight in a fight- the last time I ended up in a game with a player like that, he quickly acquired the nickname "Escort Mission."  If he really wants to play a low strength character who's got heavy armor, he'd probably be better off playing a Cleric (especially with Wisdom as his best stat).
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

qc mech3

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 872
  • Mon pays, ce n'est pas un pays. C'est l'hiver.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #15 on: 27 January 2013, 17:00:27 »
I am playing a Pathfinder game right now with my friends. Pregenerated characters and Adventures/campaigns are a staples of this game and are very good for that.

I admit, a gnome with a Strength stat so low is a problem. I would suggest exchanging it with another stat. If non-magic, the armor and helmet should not be much of a problem, the bonus they give aren't that game shattering and won't stop most skill, spell or ability anyway.

You should get an adventure first (look on Paizo's site for those available) and meet your group to see what type of character is needed: More Warriors, cleric, rogues? present that to your friend and together, insert his background to the one in the campaign.

I started with a simple bard, decided to be a bagpiper and with the campaign setting I'm now a Scandinavian Scald en route to Sian.  ;D  :D  O0

     

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9901
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #16 on: 27 January 2013, 17:44:22 »
Not unless you, as GM, are planning to run most enemies as being tactically limited to attacking the first thing that gets in front of them instead of prioritizing what they attack based on threat (in other words, enemies never try to geek the mage).  Among other things, those stats lock him out of many of the best feat options for his class.

GM: Rolling encounter, Orc Warband x5
The enemy Orc Warband see you guys. You see them and...?

Players: We prepare for combat.

GM:You attack them, roll some stuff, all they see is a River Gnome in pretty armor.
Orc Warband: " Look! A river gnome. River gnome? Arrrr! RIVER GNOMES MUST DIE! KILL IT! "

Otrix: GULP....
Party: We'll help with... running away.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #17 on: 27 January 2013, 19:41:48 »
I talked to my buddy. We're going to try and rejigger things to see if we can't turn him into a competent berserker, but not lose too much in wisdom. Thanks for the confirmation re: the armor. I was worried given the monetary value that the AC boost was just too darn high.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25626
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #18 on: 27 January 2013, 20:22:29 »
A 19 AC is on the high side for a starting character, but it's not unreasonable, and attack bonuses tend to rise much faster than AC does thanks to there being few options to boost AC aside from magic.  There are a few feats and class abilities that provide AC bonuses, but those typically don't add nearly as much as getting enchantments on your armor and AC boosting magic items like Rings of Deflection.  And if your character is focused on getting a lot of those items, it will probably cut down on their ability to get better magic weapons and other equipment.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

guardiandashi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4826
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #19 on: 27 January 2013, 21:34:12 »
my 2 cents on D&D/pathfinder

when you look at armor values defenses tend to be HIGHLY stagnant and most armor is effectively hardcapped at ~9-10 not counting magic bonuses.

example I dig out the PHB armor table version 3.5  http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Armor

we look at the light armor and it all caps (except padded) at +8 total bonus, padded is capped @ 9
medium armor (except breast plate is effectively capped @ +7 bp is capped at 8

etc.  once you get your armor vs dex maxed out, other than adding things like shields, magical bonus's natural armor etc you are pretty much done. the only place you can really go is exotic material which tends to more or less modify/break the standard armor limit rules.

example mithril (sometimes nicknamed elven silver or elven steel) is twice as strong as regular steel for the same weight, (or a bit more, honestly but for all practical purposes) so if I get a suit of elven chain vs std chain the std chain is going to weight 40 lbs, the mithril equivalant will weigh closer to 20 lbs but it provides the same protection unless enchanted (magic) which it usually is.

so back to theory craftinga moment...  you make a human fighter with 12 dex (dex being the defense stat) you manage to get the gm to let you get banded mail armor at 1st level or so yay 250g worth of armor, and your defense is effectively a 17 (armor and dex bonus)

I make a elven fighter and manage to max out my starting dex for a whole whopping 20 giving me a +5 active defense I can't afford elven chain plus 5 armor bonus max dex of +4 nonmagical the stuff costs 4,150 gold pg 220 3.5 DMG
so I am stuck with chainmail with its max dex of +2 meaning that even though I could get a bonus of +5 in regular clothing or studded leather I am capped at +2 if I go with actual chain which then has an armor bonus of +5 from an economic stand point I would get MORE protection from studded leather (at 25gp) +3 armor +5 max dex, than I would with a full suit of chain mail +5 armor, +2 dex max which costs 150 gp

note this doesn't take into account issues like differeing protection based on attack type blunt vs slashing vs piercing but you get the idea

additionally a lvl 20 warrior can get the same protection out of a given set of armor as a lvl 1 char can.

its an issue I have seen for a while but I am not sure how to resolve it.

when you go with the D20 star wars they went the other way, giving all chars a defense adjustment that increases with level, but is reduced/nulified if you wear armor  so congradulations there is now basically NO reason to use armor...

the only thing I can really think of is to sort of combine the options but then you get situations where a high level fighter could walk through an army of low level shlubs (mobs) and they could NEVER touch him
« Last Edit: 27 January 2013, 21:38:59 by guardiandashi »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25626
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #20 on: 27 January 2013, 22:08:24 »
note this doesn't take into account issues like differeing protection based on attack type blunt vs slashing vs piercing but you get the idea

That effect was taken out in the shift from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition, on account of it being annoying to keep track of.

Quote
the only thing I can really think of is to sort of combine the options but then you get situations where a high level fighter could walk through an army of low level shlubs (mobs) and they could NEVER touch him

Only true if you're using the variant rule where a natural 20 isn't an automatic hit.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #21 on: 27 January 2013, 23:01:27 »
Ok, I gave the little guy a bunch of tweaks. How does the following look now? I'm not looking to make him optimal and he still has his racial strength deficit, but useful in both combat and non-combat roles (trying to maintain some wisdom).


Code: [Select]
Name:       Otrix
Race:       Gnome
Player:     Chris
Classes:    Barbarian1
Hit Points: 15
Experience: 0 / 2000
Alignment:  Neutral Good
Vision:     Low-light
Speed:      Walk 30 ft.
Languages:  Common, Gnome, Sylvan
Stat    Score   Mod
STR      12      (+1)
DEX      13      (+1)
CON      16      (+3)
INT      10      (+0)
WIS      12      (+1)
CHA      12      (+1)
-------------------------- Skills --------------------------
Skill                   Total   Rnk     Stat    Msc
Acrobatics               1        0.0      1        0
Appraise                 1        1.0      0        0
Bluff                    1        0.0      1        0
Climb                    5        1.0      1        3
Craft (Armor)            6        1.0      0        5
Craft (Untrained)        0        0.0      0        0
Diplomacy                1        0.0      1        0
Disguise                 1        0.0      1        0
Escape Artist            1        0.0      1        0
Fly                      3        0.0      1        2
Heal                     1        0.0      1        0
Intimidate               1        0.0      1        0
Knowledge (Nature)       5        1.0      0        4
Perception               3        0.0      1        2
Perform (Untrained)      1        0.0      1        0
Ride                     1        0.0      1        0
Sense Motive             1        0.0      1        0
Stealth                  5        0.0      1        4
Survival                 1        0.0      1        0
Swim                     5        1.0      1        3
                                                   
-------------------------- Feats ---------------------------
Agile Maneuvers
Armor Proficiency, Light
  When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks.
 
Armor Proficiency, Medium
  When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks.
 
Martial Weapon Proficiency
  You make attack rolls with all your martial weapons normally (without the non-proficient penalty).
 
Shield Proficiency
  When you use a shield (except a tower shield), the shield's armor check penalty only applies to Strength- and Dexterity-based skills.
 
Simple Weapon Proficiency
-------------------- Special Abilities ---------------------

------------------------ Templates -------------------------

-------------------------- Combat --------------------------
    Total / Touch / Flat Footed
AC: 18    / 14    / 17
Initiative:   +1
BAB:          +1
Melee tohit:  +3
Ranged tohit: +3
Fortitude:    +5
Reflex:       +2
Will:         +1
Unarmed attack:
to hit:       +3
damage:       1d2+1
critical:     20/x2
Longsword (Small):
to hit:       +3
damage:       1d6+1
critical:     19-20/x2
Blowgun (Small):
to hit:       +3
damage:       1d1
critical:     20/x2
range:        20 ft.
Dart (Small):
to hit:       +3
damage:       1d3
critical:     20/x2
range:        20 ft.
--------------------- Special Abilities --------------------
 
------------------------- Equipment ------------------------
Name                                            QTY LBS
Longsword (Small)                                1 2lbs
Mithral Shirt (Small)                            1 5lbs Special: 30 hp/inch, hardness 15
Traveling Cloak                                  1 1lbs Special: (Cloak (Add TypeClothing))
Darkwood Shield (Small)                          1 2lbs Special: 10 hp/inch, hardness 5
Outfit (Peasant's) (Small)                       1 0lbs
Backpack (Small) (19.75 lbs.)
   Artisan's Tools (Armor)                       1 5lbs
   Blowgun (Small)                               1 0lbs
   Dart (Small)                                  2 0lbs
   Darts (Blowgun/10) (Small)                    1 0lbs
   Drinking Shell                                1 1lbs Special: (Mug or Tankard (Clay))
   Fishhook                                      10 0lbs
   Flint and Steel                               1 0lbs
   Rations (Trail/Per Day) (Small)               5 1lbs
   Sauce Pan (iron)                              1 2lbs Special: (Pot (Iron))
   Shovel or Spade                               1 8lbs
   Whetstone                                     1 1lbs
   Tindertwig                                    10 0lbs
Blowgun (Small) (0.5 lbs.)
Drinking Shell (1 lbs.)
Sauce Pan (iron) (2 lbs.)
Pouch (Belt) (Small) (1.165 lbs.)
   Coin (Copper Piece)                           10 0lbs
   Coin (Gold Piece)                             33 0lbs
   Coin (Silver Piece)                           9 0lbs
Total weight carried:
Current load:         Light
Encumbrance
Light:  32   
Medium: 65   
Heavy:  97
--------------------------- Magic --------------------------

Innate Spells
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25626
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #22 on: 28 January 2013, 00:06:52 »
Well, that's better, though still not great.  The character's still darned weak in combat, though.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #23 on: 28 January 2013, 07:48:20 »
Wait, really? Not just weak but darned weak?

edit: I was looking at some forum builds which give a little extra context. I think I'm satisfied with a couple more changes. He's a gnome, not the best fighter, but I'm not looking to run an optimized group. So I think I'm probably good.
« Last Edit: 28 January 2013, 08:31:17 by Bedwyr »
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

qc mech3

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 872
  • Mon pays, ce n'est pas un pays. C'est l'hiver.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #24 on: 28 January 2013, 09:10:50 »
not a great basher but that's ok if you have at least another warrior in the group (make he has max STR and CON stats).

The ideal will be for your friend role-playing his barbarian, not understanding anything about city life or civilization.  ^-^  ;D

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10178
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #25 on: 28 January 2013, 09:16:36 »
not a great basher but that's ok if you have at least another warrior in the group (make he has max STR and CON stats).

The ideal will be for your friend role-playing his barbarian, not understanding anything about city life or civilization.  ^-^  ;D

Eh. He has a different concept of what barbarian means. It's less "stupid Conan" and more Gallic warrior. This is what happens when someone has less pop culture knowledge and a lot more historical knowledge. It runs against the grain of a lot of our (poorly conceived) preconceptions, doing things like breaking role-playing games based on old stereotypes.


How does this work for a heavily roleplayed character then:

Code: [Select]
Name:       Otrix
Race:       Gnome
Player:     Chris
Classes:    Barbarian1
Hit Points: 14
Experience: 0 / 2000
Alignment:  Neutral Good
Vision:     Low-light
Speed:      Walk 30 ft.
Languages:  Common, Gnome, Sylvan
Stat    Score   Mod
STR      14      (+2)
DEX      12      (+1)
CON      14      (+2)
INT      10      (+0)
WIS      12      (+1)
CHA      11      (+0)
-------------------------- Skills --------------------------
Skill                   Total   Rnk     Stat    Msc
Acrobatics               1        0.0      1        0
Appraise                 1        1.0      0        0
Bluff                    0        0.0      0        0
Climb                    6        1.0      2        3
Craft (Armor)            6        1.0      0        5
Craft (Untrained)        0        0.0      0        0
Diplomacy                0        0.0      0        0
Disguise                 0        0.0      0        0
Escape Artist            1        0.0      1        0
Fly                      3        0.0      1        2
Heal                     1        0.0      1        0
Intimidate               0        0.0      0        0
Knowledge (Nature)       5        1.0      0        4
Perception               3        0.0      1        2
Perform (Untrained)      0        0.0      0        0
Ride                     1        0.0      1        0
Sense Motive             1        0.0      1        0
Stealth                  5        0.0      1        4
Survival                 1        0.0      1        0
Swim                     6        1.0      2        3
                                                   
-------------------------- Feats ---------------------------
Agile Maneuvers
Armor Proficiency, Light
  When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks.
 
Armor Proficiency, Medium
  When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks.
 
Martial Weapon Proficiency
  You make attack rolls with all your martial weapons normally (without the non-proficient penalty).
 
Shield Proficiency
  When you use a shield (except a tower shield), the shield's armor check penalty only applies to Strength- and Dexterity-based skills.
 
Simple Weapon Proficiency
-------------------- Special Abilities ---------------------

------------------------ Templates -------------------------

-------------------------- Combat --------------------------
    Total / Touch / Flat Footed
AC: 18    / 14    / 17
Initiative:   +1
BAB:          +1
Melee tohit:  +4
Ranged tohit: +3
Fortitude:    +4
Reflex:       +2
Will:         +1
Unarmed attack:
to hit:       +4
damage:       1d2+2
critical:     20/x2
Longsword (Small):
to hit:       +4
damage:       1d6+2
critical:     19-20/x2
Blowgun (Small):
to hit:       +3
damage:       1d1
critical:     20/x2
range:        20 ft.
Dart (Small):
to hit:       +3
damage:       1d3
critical:     20/x2
range:        20 ft.
--------------------- Special Abilities --------------------
 
------------------------- Equipment ------------------------
Name                                            QTY LBS
Longsword (Small)                                1 2lbs
Mithral Shirt (Small)                            1 5lbs Special: 30 hp/inch, hardness 15
Traveling Cloak                                  1 1lbs Special: (Cloak (Add TypeClothing))
Darkwood Shield (Small)                          1 2lbs Special: 10 hp/inch, hardness 5
Outfit (Peasant's) (Small)                       1 0lbs
Backpack (Small) (19.75 lbs.)
   Artisan's Tools (Armor)                       1 5lbs
   Sauce Pan (iron)                              1 2lbs Special: (Pot (Iron))
   Shovel or Spade                               1 8lbs
   Whetstone                                     1 1lbs
   Tindertwig                                    10 0lbs
   Blowgun (Small)                               1 0lbs
   Dart (Small)                                  2 0lbs
   Darts (Blowgun/10) (Small)                    1 0lbs
   Drinking Shell                                1 1lbs Special: (Mug or Tankard (Clay))
   Fishhook                                      10 0lbs
   Flint and Steel                               1 0lbs
   Rations (Trail/Per Day) (Small)               5 1lbs
Blowgun (Small) (0.5 lbs.)
Drinking Shell (1 lbs.)
Sauce Pan (iron) (2 lbs.)
Pouch (Belt) (Small) (1.165 lbs.)
   Coin (Copper Piece)                           10 0lbs
   Coin (Gold Piece)                             33 0lbs
   Coin (Silver Piece)                           9 0lbs
Total weight carried:
Current load:         Light
Encumbrance
Light:  43   
Medium: 87   
Heavy:  131
--------------------------- Magic --------------------------

Innate Spells
« Last Edit: 28 January 2013, 09:23:26 by Bedwyr »
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

StCptMara

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6551
  • Looking for new Adder skin boots
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #26 on: 28 January 2013, 09:32:00 »
If you were in my shoes and the player really really really wanted a river gnome berserker, what would you do to rehabilitate the guy?

First: higher strength. As a melee class, he needs high strength, constitution, and dexterity.
Second: lighter armour. Remember, heavier armor puts lower maximum dex bonuses, and bigger penalties to things
like swimming(which is based on Strength).
Third: less exotic armour.What he wants? That would bankrupt a barbarian tribe to get...if they had access to that much
of those rare materials that he can make it, and know how to make it? Then that tribe is going to be targeted by civilized forces
for its mines and skilled craftsmen, and everyone else put to the sword.
Fourth: Frankly, tell him that this is not the real world. While some of his advanced schooling might be useful..it is not 100%
reliable. In fact, do something to SPECIFICALLY make it wrong. Like make them operating around a Roman Republic oriented
area...or, if you are doing High Magic, industrial revolution, but with magic, and no guns.

But, basicly, I would say your best bet is: make him, and everyone else, roll up their gold, and that is where their equipment comes from. They get one set of clothes and a back-pack free(and wizards get a spell book, priests get a holy symbol). Everything else must come from their randomly generated gold. Also, all character creation must be done as a group, in front of the GM, with everyone
discussing what they want their character to bring to the group. That way, if there are, say, two rogues, they are each bringing something different.
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

"Greetings, Mechwarrior! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against---Oops, wrong universe" - Unknown SLDF Recruiter

Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #27 on: 29 January 2013, 00:44:06 »
Mithral as a special material isn't particularly game breaking but it is supposed to be exotic, rare, and expensive so I concur with earlier sentiments that it should be right out as starting gear.

A quick overview of what it does for:

Armor: Skill check penalties are reduced, maximum dexterity bonus is increased, weight of the armor is halved, and the armor is harder to break.  Also reduces Arcane Spell Failure.  Movement penalties and the type of armor for purposes of if functioning for class features or not is reduced by one step to a minimum of Light(but not the proficiency needed to wear said armor without penalty).

Shield: Primarily reduced weight and increased durability is why you'd want to use it in this capacity.

Weapon: No real benefit besides reduced weight and increased durability.

Adamantine is certainly more potent and again is supposed to be exotic, rare, and expensive and as such I'd say no.

What it does:

Armor: Provides Damage Reduction based on category of armor and is really durable.

Shield: Cannot be used to make shields.

Weapon: Really good for breaking things.

Stat wise the character is about what I'd consider the minimum of where they should be to be a Barbarian now.  The first stat set would be a fairly reasonable set for a Cleric.

With the current stat set I'd recommend the following:

Defensively a suit of Scale Mail would be their best bet making their AC 17 when fully able to defend themselves, 12 against a touch attack, 16 when Flat Footed, and 11 when Flat Footed and the target of a touch attack.  That's not bad for 1st Level but it isn't likely to go up for a while.  It would make the character only able to cover 20 feet and still make an attack though.  By default a Barbarian's starting gold would be taxed with a Chain Shirt, the next best alternative but a potentially worthwhile one since it'd allow for covering 30 feet and still being able to attack.

The potency of the Barbarian is their strength so forget the shield and go for a Great Axe of if they're lucky with their 3d6*10 starting wealth roll a Great Sword is a good alternative in it's own right.  A Great Axe is 1d10 + 3 damage with a critical chance on 20 and if confirmed that's 3d10 + 9 damage.  Great Sword is the same 1d10 + 3 but has a critical chance on a 19 or 20 but only does 2d10 + 6 damage if confirmed.

The rest of their gear can largely be up to them but I almost always have a pry bar, some soap, a bedroll, and if I can manage a tent in my character's gear.

guardiandashi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4826
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #28 on: 29 January 2013, 01:00:51 »
The rest of their gear can largely be up to them but I almost always have a pry bar, some soap, a bedroll, and if I can manage a tent in my character's gear.

barbarian? tent he doesn't need no stinking effeet thing like a tent he has a hunk of canvas, or a stretched hide (off something he killed himself) and is happy to have that...

sorry couldn't resist the classic barbarian steriotype joke

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #29 on: 29 January 2013, 01:09:49 »
What ever form it takes I'd still call it a tent if it keeps the weather and incidental creepy crawlies out.