Author Topic: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)  (Read 20545 times)

Bedwyr

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #30 on: 29 January 2013, 01:19:08 »
What ever form it takes I'd still call it a tent if it keeps the weather and incidental creepy crawlies out.

Dried, caked mud from rolling around in it. I mean he's almost a fish already, right? :)

Thanks for the inputs. I think I can accept exotic armor if the RP reason is sound enough. Mara's points, for example, could be addressed by the riverside clan being generally hidden from 'Big Folks' eyes. Recall that the original mithril armor whose value was "more than the worth of the shire" but never prompted rapacious attacks even though swarthy southerners were making their way north and dwarves and elves were making their way west. I could definitely make an exception if it doesn't break the game.
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monbvol

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #31 on: 29 January 2013, 01:38:45 »
I imagine they'll want something that won't wash away in the rain. :P

Mithral is a more subtle material than Adamantine.  The main use it has for armor is specifically for letting class features still work despite wearing heavier and "better" armor.

One of the things I find myself doing with various RPG is after I spend a considerable amount of time with them is to break them down to find out what does work and what doesn't.  Basically figuring out why I should take option a and if there are situations where option b is better and if they really come up enough to justify option b.

To give an example the Toughness feat is something useful enough that every class can be justified in having it with the combat heavy nature of Pathfinder/D&D and be very worthwhile.  On the other hand it does little good for a low Dexterity Barbarian to pick up Agile Maneuvers.

StCptMara

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #32 on: 29 January 2013, 02:59:32 »
Recall that the original mithril armor whose value was "more than the worth of the shire" but never prompted rapacious attacks even though swarthy southerners were making their way north and dwarves and elves were making their way west. I could definitely make an exception if it doesn't break the game.

Um...Mithral in D&D has always been something of the Dwarves. The reason why no-one tried to slaughter the dwarves was,
after the first couple times being slaughtered by the dwarves as they tried to fight their way into the dwarven mountains,
most people got smart, and just traded...it was easier.
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truetanker

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #33 on: 29 January 2013, 23:40:04 »
Well that and the fact that most Mithral was mined from the delve where dragons sleep. And you know about them dragons right? Dwarf crunchyrolls galore!

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Bedwyr

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #34 on: 21 April 2013, 12:03:57 »
Welp, further advice welcome.

We had a bit of a conflict Friday. The same fellow I've discussed before had spent something approaching a week researching and assembling a group of, I think, six NPCs. One of them already has a relationship with his character. The other five were a gypsy band that got involved in a one-off conflict he conducted to help introduce his sister to the group and the Pathfinder system in general. I think I would probably have welcomed some of the additions had he asked first, but he tossed the pre-made characters to me in the expectation that I would use them, preferably soon, like he had a pre-made version of how the story should proceed in his head and I ought to accede to that creativity. To me this was... really presumptuous. Yeah I'm working with a pre-made campaign (Runelords), but I'm slowly feeding in hooks so that we can take the plot further afield. Insisting that I incorporate these characters into the campaign without asking, let alone giving me a heads-up *really* rubbed me the wrong way.

I think he's got a very different view of what the RPG process is about than I do. I think he sees the players' role as co-creators alongside the GM but in a more active way than is traditional (or at least what I've seen and read as traditional), essentially more of a story-go-round. In that kind of model the players are mini-GMs who bring their stories, their characters, and their interactions to the table alongside the GM to somehow mesh and collectively tell a story; not so much "gaming" as almost collaborating as co-authors on a novel. I don't suppose that's an illegitimate approach, but it's incompatible with the way I'm approaching the campaign design here. My intention is to be a little bit freewheeling here, using the opportunity to a) gain confidence with the GM'ing process, b) slowly move further afield from the pre-gen material as confidence increases, c) use that freedom to paint NPCs with broad, bright brushstrokes and fill them in as the opportunity comes, and d) most especially construct situations and encounters that use interesting bits of game design and mechanics so that all the players can learn to work together and enjoy themselves.

So the question here is really not "who is right" but how should the conflict be bridged? And I need the experience of long-time GMs to help inform me and either change how I'm thinking about this, mount a good argument to persuade him, or both so that the gaming can happen in better harmony. I'm quoting a big part of his response to me in hopes you guys can help. Again, this not a whine or kvetching, it's kind of the PnP game version of conflict resolution. I want this to work out and it's been a surprisingly difficult challenge so far, especially for someone new to this. :) His response made me pretty frustrated and hot so I don't really trust my instinctive response.

Quote
quotation snipped

edit: I was going to cite what he said, but I reconsidered. It's still private conversation and as much as it might have helped to show it, I don't think it would be appropriate.

Thoughts?
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guardiandashi

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #35 on: 21 April 2013, 12:57:38 »
ouch Bedwyr thats a rough one.

note I am not the most experenced gm around I tend to prefer playing to running most of the time. 

with that said a strong confruntation is unlikely to have the preferred results, so ....

how about something along the lines of I will need to consider these npc's and the back story, a little to determine if there is an easy way to intregrate them right now, if not, I may have to add them in some other way, but it may take some doing as I didn't have any warning.  of course it may also help to ask the group to run any additional npc's expecially groups of npc's they would like to add in the future by you to give you a chance to work out how you intend to intregrate them into the campaign.

Bedwyr

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #36 on: 21 April 2013, 13:21:39 »
ouch Bedwyr thats a rough one.

note I am not the most experenced gm around I tend to prefer playing to running most of the time. 

with that said a strong confruntation is unlikely to have the preferred results, so ....

how about something along the lines of I will need to consider these npc's and the back story, a little to determine if there is an easy way to intregrate them right now, if not, I may have to add them in some other way, but it may take some doing as I didn't have any warning.  of course it may also help to ask the group to run any additional npc's expecially groups of npc's they would like to add in the future by you to give you a chance to work out how you intend to intregrate them into the campaign.

I think that's a good general approach, but his frame of reference appears to be such that I've got to marshal some significant arguments to a potential "No Bedwyr. I know how this works and you are incorrect. I'll be kind to you and say that you can put the characters in later if that helps but those *are* my characters and they should be part of the story." Note that's a prediction based on what he said earlier and where I *think* his thinking is going not what he's already said. So besides banging my head against the wall, I'm sensing a need to work through some really strong assumptions.

One possibility might be to discuss this openly with the group? In the end I'm really supposed to be working towards the fun of the group. So if they want to do active module/adventure/NPC creation maybe I should agree to it. After all I'm supposed to be the facilitator of the fun and if me stopping that is getting in the way of fun I should bend.
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Terminax

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #37 on: 21 April 2013, 15:58:45 »
Talk about incompatible styles and goals.

If he was at my table, I'd flat out tell him my concerns and lay out my preferences in dealing with the situation. If it couldn't be resolved amicably, I wouldn't play with him. I tend to lay out my games in a framework style, and lay out a situation and theme that the players can plug their characters into and then go from there. If characters are too bizarre and don't fit into that dynamic I ask them to make a character that does.

monbvol

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #38 on: 21 April 2013, 17:01:40 »
Hmmm...

I think Guardian's probably got the best possible approach for this.  You're the GM and it's your job to create the story.  Letting the PCs have some freedom is fine but having wholesale control of which NPCs and story bits are used and when is ultimately yours.

idea weenie

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #39 on: 21 April 2013, 21:25:10 »
If you were in my shoes and the player really really really wanted a river gnome berserker, what would you do to rehabilitate the guy?

High strength and dexterity, damage dealing feats, plus skill points into swimming.  Turn him from a turtle into a wolverine.  If as a gnome he has a racial reduction in strength, equip him with weapons that don't use strength.  A wand of magic missiles would be a good weapon.  If he insists on playing the turtle, just have the enemy go around him to attack the others, tying him up with a similar tank that barely does any damage, but has lots of hit points.  When the rest of the party complains that he isn't capable of protecting them, that should get the message across.

It is better than one character that a friend played.  He was a str 8 halfling armed with daggers.  So half-sized daggers (d3 IIRC) with a 1 pt penalty to damage.


But as for randomly generated gold, sometimes you have to be flexible.  For example one friend of mine rolled up an elf who specialized in longbow and longsword, with feats for both.  Unfortunately, he rolled minimum for gold, so couldn't purchase even one of them.  He was stuck with a short sword and cloth armor.

StCptMara

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #40 on: 21 April 2013, 21:29:55 »
Sheesh, Bedwyr..this guy sounds alot like a guy from my group. Do you have to watch his sheets like a hawk for him doing "tweaks"
and have people have to watch his rolls?
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William J. Pennington

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #41 on: 21 April 2013, 22:09:37 »
I think that's a good general approach, but his frame of reference appears to be such that I've got to marshal some significant arguments to a potential "No Bedwyr. I know how this works and you are incorrect. I'll be kind to you and say that you can put the characters in later if that helps but those *are* my characters and they should be part of the story." Note that's a prediction based on what he said earlier and where I *think* his thinking is going not what he's already said. So besides banging my head against the wall, I'm sensing a need to work through some really strong assumptions.

A player who would waste a week of time making a group of NPC's before checkin in with the GM raises all sorts of 'problem player' red flags. 

There should be no argument here. Do you really see that actual reponse coming from him?  A player does not dicate to the GM.  He does not get to determine the story outside of the action of his characters. Rule 1. If you wish to be less confrontational, you can bring it up in a group session. make it clear that you might consider players requests and input, the campaigns background and metaplot is something you have worked on and have a progress plan for, and there's only so much room for other material, and only so much time you have to spend managing any changes or additions beyond what you have already planned. But in the end,  your decision is final. If they are cool with it, then play on. If not, then tell someone else to GM. If he's the only one with a prpoblem, he can deal, or he can find something else to do. 

If he can't understand the basic Player/GM dynamic, he'll never last long in any group anyway, or you won't last long as a GM. Running the game can't become a pain to you; and if he won't yield to reasonable roles and compromises expected of players, he can choose not to play. Don't feel you have to accomodate him.  You've made a reasonable stand fully within the normal expectatiosn of a gaming group. 

I highly reccomend not giving in on this issue: this sounds like a 'give an inch and he'll take a mile' type player, and not look at any compromise on your part as a exchange, but for a license from him to try and dominate the game with mary sue-ism or simply loads of details focused on him that no others player frankly will care about.

If he persists, then its a flat "When you run a game, you can add characters as you wish. Sorry, but those characters/that plotline does not fit into my campaign, therefore it won't happen at this time."

They are not his characters. Players control one character in the universe, and the NPC's are yours. Having him create the NPC's completely, and try to dictate the story is not going to work: how will the other players fele about this? How will he not act off of his superior knowledge of the NPCs and situation? And will he start arguing that 'No, they wouldnt do that" once the game started and you used them?  I'm thinking he would. 

Even if you found a use for them (and I have taken player ideas in the past), they shoud not be introduced as he has written them. You'ld almost be obligated to rewrite them, change them, and alter the story to better fit your campaign, and also keep the story fresh for him as a player, and to take away his ability to rely on meta-knowledge. 

Quote
After all I'm supposed to be the facilitator of the fun and if me stopping that is getting in the way of fun I should bend.

They have to bend as well. You are the one who has taken on the often thankless job of being GM.  You do the liosn share of the real work, you make the major decisions.  Of course there is a give and take in a  basic decision on game system, genre, setting, power level and tone that usually happens before campaign,  but after that, you are the GM. Part of the compensation of being the GM is not being forced to run what you don't want, or constantly abandon or rework your plans because of another 'great idea' which most likely is incompatible with your original direction.  There's only room for one GM at the head of a table for a particular game.  Now sure, you can have a shared universe, with GM's rotating out or running differnt groups in the same world, but that involves negptiations and cooperation on a GM to GM basis, not GM to player.

Bedwyr

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #42 on: 21 April 2013, 22:41:10 »
Points well made W.J.

I do need to be careful though. He is my roommate (so he doesn't go away at the end of the day) and starting on this was our idea. He's also going through a rough time and it'd be nice if I can find a way to enable this as an outlet for him.
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William J. Pennington

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #43 on: 21 April 2013, 23:07:20 »
Points well made W.J.

I do need to be careful though. He is my roommate (so he doesn't go away at the end of the day) and starting on this was our idea. He's also going through a rough time and it'd be nice if I can find a way to enable this as an outlet for him.


Ok, tactful but firm.  Hopefulyl he'll get involved enough in your campaign that he wont feel the need to write his own.

For the future, I'd encourage him to tal to you first before he invests so much work in projects.  He may be less insistant on inclusion if hadn't already put so much effort in it (but that is purely his fault in this case. To soothe his feelings about the current matter, tell him not to view the effort as lost.  Maybe you can use them in the future, or he can set them aside for a future campaign.

Then get to a game immediately, and get the group immersed in something; nothing smooths over these talks better than a good game, especially with some high adventure and just on the edge of death situations the players miraculously get out of (with some public recognition for good deeds as icing on the cake along with their other favorite be sparingly given rewards). So throw some major league bad stuff at them.  A good long session of roleplay and hanging on by the skin of their teeth should help.


Nav_Alpha

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #44 on: 22 April 2013, 00:45:58 »
Hmm tough situation.

My current 4th edition D&D campaign has had similar issues a while back - one or two players hogging things. So we split into two separate groups. Two guys and I formed another group with three others.
Two of them were a bit younger and soon realised we slightly older guys were probably dominating the game a bit more. Lost one player, ended up mending our ways and becoming a very good group.

Communication is probably the key to resolving all of these issues


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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #45 on: 22 April 2013, 11:02:41 »
Points well made W.J.

I do need to be careful though. He is my roommate (so he doesn't go away at the end of the day) and starting on this was our idea. He's also going through a rough time and it'd be nice if I can find a way to enable this as an outlet for him.

The problem is that he's not the only player in the group, and if he's polymorphing into the drama llama every week I can virtually guarantee that two things are going to happen because of it: One, you're going to lose most if not all of the other players because it; two, you personally are going to acquire a reputation as being a doormat of a GM.

An RPG group is a place where multiple people try to get together to have fun, which very rarely includes playing therapist for one of the other group members.  He's not the only person there so the spotlight can't fall on him the whole time.  He really needs to learn to play nice with the rest of the team and stop trying to dominate the story, and if he can't then honestly he needs to find something different to do.
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Nav_Alpha

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #46 on: 22 April 2013, 17:27:03 »
"Drama llama"... Chuckles. Love it


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truetanker

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #47 on: 22 April 2013, 20:07:15 »
May I suggest running each NPC charater as a bit, rather as a whole?

Bit parts are harder to control than in a " group mind ". Because each have their OWN personality and needs. While a group mind follows more than it leads.

Now a solution to this :

Have each NPC do something that puts them " out of bounds or unacessable " for a period of time. That way your roommate can work on HIS character, not theirs.

It would be nice to understand what NPCs were created so we can give ideas of who should be available " this time ".

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Bedwyr

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #48 on: 22 April 2013, 20:20:02 »
Thanks for the advice so far guys. One idea I had was to take the character that is his friend (his name is "Bob", no kidding) and pull a Beautiful Mind on his character. The other group members will never be able to see Bob or Mr. Bob will only appear when they aren't around because Mr. Bob doesn't actually exist. This fits for a few reasons. One, I don't mind giving a character screen time. It has to be fair and the other characters need some TLC, but it can be there. Mr. "Bob" can potentially be an ongoing foil. Two, his character is already well-known for taking in the mushrooms and may (we're not sure yet) have trouble keeping the drow in him down. Three, I already have plans to slowly feed in misdirections and "that actually didn't happen" moments for the main plot.


There's room for the gypsies too, but on my own terms.
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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #49 on: 22 April 2013, 21:19:45 »
Thanks for the advice so far guys. One idea I had was to take the character that is his friend (his name is "Bob", no kidding) and pull a Beautiful Mind on his character. The other group members will never be able to see Bob or Mr. Bob will only appear when they aren't around because Mr. Bob doesn't actually exist. This fits for a few reasons. One, I don't mind giving a character screen time. It has to be fair and the other characters need some TLC, but it can be there. Mr. "Bob" can potentially be an ongoing foil. Two, his character is already well-known for taking in the mushrooms and may (we're not sure yet) have trouble keeping the drow in him down. Three, I already have plans to slowly feed in misdirections and "that actually didn't happen" moments for the main plot.


There's room for the gypsies too, but on my own terms.

This is a pretty ambitious idea - i like it. Your only risk is that your player freaks out and hates the idea because he feels like he's being singled out and having all of his ideas knocked back by the DM, etc.
I could see your Beautiful Mind idea (which is great BTW!) working particularly well with some players - others, not so much.

Best of luck though


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William J. Pennington

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #50 on: 22 April 2013, 21:53:48 »
Thanks for the advice so far guys. One idea I had was to take the character that is his friend (his name is "Bob", no kidding) and pull a Beautiful Mind on his character.

That can work. Logisitically, it will be challenging, especially if the player embraces it and really gets involved in roleplaying it,  unless you do 'blue booking' or roleplay utside of full group sessions.  The amount of pure focus time you can spend on one character, where other PC's are not, and cannot be involved has to be, over the course of a campaign, portioned out, though it may vary wildly in specific games.  So these scenes will become the primary focus  time for your roomies character, so it has to work well for him, but it also has to be limited enough so the other players dont go 'oh God, another Bob scene, lets go in the living room and find something on TV to watch'.

Rule of thumb: take the length of your gaming session. Subtract from that the amount of time spent in encounter situations (actually fighting, or party preliminary actions, exploring, searching, etc). Subtract from that the time you are narrating.  Subtract administrative time (rules, purchases, levelling, food, bathroom breaks etc). Subtract time spent BS'ing. Subtract time for start up and closing the session.

What is left is roleplay time. Subtract time estimated for group roleplay scenes. Take the remaining amount of time (not much by this point usually)..and divide that by the number of players you have.  That number is the amount of time you have per player to focus on them.  What you go over on one, you have to take away from another. Decide how much of this focus time bob gets, based on the players reception.

Bedwyr

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #51 on: 22 April 2013, 22:16:13 »
This is a pretty ambitious idea - i like it. Your only risk is that your player freaks out and hates the idea because he feels like he's being singled out and having all of his ideas knocked back by the DM, etc.
I could see your Beautiful Mind idea (which is great BTW!) working particularly well with some players - others, not so much.

He can deal with it. If he gets to the point that he's even directing how a character he tossed at me "shall' be used, I'll end the campaign. I don't think

Anyhow, thanks. I'm slowly working to twist the Runelords campaign on its head by introducing psychological elements mixed with some fun game mechanics. My style is shaping up to be fairly freewheeling so as long as I get specific balances and systems correct I can do NPCs in broad brush-strokes and paint in as we go. It also allows a large amount of group agency. So I'll come back to the main points of the published campaign, but let increasingly more "interesting" things happen.

We did a one-off session that turned a cave into a huge clockwork mechanism. The players were forced to scale pillars (one quarter turn up a pillar per turn, DC 10 climb each time or they fall) while a central slowly-rotating statue spouted green flame. The flame melted what turned out to be thick ice and exposed a deep chasm below. Once the players had committed to the pillar climb, they needed to not fall. One ultimately did (she was rolling single digits half the night) and summoned a large owl that, for some reason kept saying "Who who" "What what" and "Waaart" but carried her to safety atop the pillars.

I think I want to incorporate that into the plot. The clockwork and flames become a shared dream and slowly as time and the plot progress, the increasingly disturbing nature of this endless labyrinth creates frustration and uncontrollable anger (DC 8 to avoid when everyone wakes up... two already failed that check and were forced to attack their companions or some priests. No harm done... yet). This is in line with the campaign's theme of the deadly sin of anger and the adversary who controls it and uses it as a weapon. Eventually fire and incessant clockwork begin impinging on the waking world causing the players to doubt when they are awake and when they are asleep. I'm still trying to work out balanced success and failure conditions and further puzzles involved in this system.

I'm also taking a cue from Ultima Underworld I. At a certain point in the campaign, magic itself becomes disrupted and refuses to work properly. Small runestones the players have been slowly collecting suddenly glow in the hands of the non magic-users who can assemble them to cast spells using the words structure from the advanced magic book. Former magic-users suddenly see that they have remarkably increased skill with arms. Fighting roles effectively become reversed.


Quote
That can work. Logisitically, it will be challenging, especially if the player embraces it and really gets involved in roleplaying it,  unless you do 'blue booking' or roleplay outside of full group sessions.  The amount of pure focus time you can spend on one character, where other PC's are not, and cannot be involved has to be, over the course of a campaign, portioned out, though it may vary wildly in specific games.  So these scenes will become the primary focus  time for your roomies character, so it has to work well for him, but it also has to be limited enough so the other players dont go 'oh God, another Bob scene, lets go in the living room and find something on TV to watch'.

The plan would be to have him be occasionally recurring and only 'naturally' appear alone to the character in a kind of Clark Kent way, say meeting at night in the woods, so that no one suspects that he's more than someone who sometimes appears and helps the group. Of course he talks with that character. They know each other.

The other players I'll feed according to need.

One is a young man; a WoW gamer and kind of a clown. He's running a half-elf classic ranger and a natural power gamer who wants loot and stats out of the game more than role-playing. He shows willing, but it's not his biggest motivation. He asked on Friday whether I'd give him a spell to summon a toilet (junior high humor remember). I jokingly allowed it but it would have to be fairy sized along with commensurately sized toilet paper. If he wanted his character to cleanse himself using it, far be it from me to refuse. I also had a tarrasque rip him to shreds after the night's game was done just to see what it was like. He thought getting chewed in half and gulped down in one turn was pretty cool.

One is a young lady playing a gnome cleric. She's not too familiar with RPGs in computer or PnP settings and is mostly "playing the game" while feeling things out.

Third is a college aged fellow playing an elf/orc with daddy issues and a weird jovial resemblance to the incredible hulk... at least in speech. He's game to attempt some roleplay but mostly is having trouble with the first young man in figuring out what to do. Right now I'm throwing some hooks out there and seeing if they bite at all. Unfortunately neither seems to prefer being led by the nose out of discomfort and confusion a "What are we supposed to do next" syndrome. I'll lead if they really need it, but I'm trying to shut up more and leave more awkward silence to encourage them to take some initiative.

The last is our prima donna. He does a really good job in-game giving the other players space to do things but, as we've discussed, has assumptions about how this works. I'm not sure quite yet whether we need to have a full laying-down-the-law discussion, but we'll see.
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Nav_Alpha

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #52 on: 22 April 2013, 22:22:27 »
Following on from William J Pennington about screentime, etc

My group regularly uses Facebook and email to handle this - our current group is now 13th level so that means a lot of dreams and peripheries, direct link with the gods an romancing important NPCs, etc.
We handle a lot of this off screen - frequently at the end of a session I'll say something like "I really want to explore that idea, etc".
Following in for this te DM will email or Facebook message me with a dream of a scenario that happens off screen - and it's up to me if I share this with the party. The party's cleric frequently talks directly to our god, getting cryptic insight, etc. but it's all offscreen and takes the part of dream, prayer sessions etc that the player an DM work out via email.
Similarly, I'm involved in building a temple in our new home city, but my paladin had also married and is starting a family. The tedious stuff of building the temple often occurs as a series of Facebook messages or emails between me, another PC who's also working on it and the DM. While the occasional family situation, etc will just be a couple of ideas jotted down between my an te DM.

This could be a totally Gen-Y way of looking at it, but it really works and means everyone has enough FaceTime when we actually play.


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Bedwyr

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #53 on: 05 May 2013, 17:48:57 »
Okie doke. Three more questions.

1) How can I reign in Perception-itis? The players seem to want to use it every few steps or in every new situation. It's not bogging down length of play but it is becoming irritating and redundant. I'm having to tell them several times to look around first before doing P. checks.

2) The indecision *is* bogging down the game. My roommate is doing a yeoman's job holding back and allowing the others a chance to play, but they are so very passive and timid in the decisions they make. It could be due to my actions, but I'm doing my best to offer actual options and agency. I also gear up or down difficulty on the fly depending on what seems appropriate; I'm not inclined to be capricious about player threats.

3) The power-gamer is bored out of his skull. I think he needs a constant stream of combat and loot a'la Rogue or WoW. I can't help that, nor can I help the natural pace of Runelords, but I *can* change the structure of how we game, maybe even taking care of 2). Perhaps I could formalize a quest system. Instead of vague hints that some NPC needs help, it could be formally exposed. I could create a combination of roleplay and gameplay chits. The former puts the spotlight on the player allowing some big scene they can play. The latter could work like some daily power where a special boost happens.
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truetanker

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #54 on: 05 May 2013, 20:05:33 »
Bedwyr~

Try combining #s 1 and 3.

Preceptionists and Powergamers, hint something is coming, something big. Then drop the ball, that something is a small challange any 1st level can do. But make them work hard for it.

Such as you must retreive a chalice from a lake. Nothing special, just a ordinary stone chalice, in a lake... full of acid, protected by posion thornbushes and such, underground. Also the chalice is in a stone shipwreck underneathe the lake's surface, sealed in the cargohold by magic. Now have them roll... after awhile, they'll stop asking.

See my point?

Now for #2, give awards to them, but give more for harder options, if they choose the easier ones, hint at the possible award. Such as having 2 teams go out and hunt for the same mission. A NPC version, not really played, and the PC one. If they chose easy, let the NPC one get the greater glory and riches. And vise verse. Also let the them know that the NPC force is around, and if the PCs get into trouble, let the NPC save the day, literally. But don't tell them that.

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StCptMara

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #55 on: 05 May 2013, 20:09:45 »
Extra XP for moving the story along should fix #2, Bedwyr. Regarding #1, my group has a policy: you only roll perception
when the GM tells you to, or if you are looking for something specific, and you must state that aloud, and the GM can just
tell the player if they see it or not without a roll, and a roll will not change that result.

For number 3? I got nothing...
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Nav_Alpha

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #56 on: 05 May 2013, 20:21:16 »
Extra XP for moving the story along should fix #2, Bedwyr. Regarding #1, my group has a policy: you only roll perception
when the GM tells you to, or if you are looking for something specific, and you must state that aloud, and the GM can just
tell the player if they see it or not without a roll, and a roll will not change that result.

For number 3? I got nothing...

This is how I use perception in my games. You roll if you're after something specific or told to.
ie: "I want to have a scout around to see if i can spot any infiltrators around the camp site" - DM then response to make a perception check.
It's more like a detailed, focused search that way.

For 3. I dunno - that's not how i game. I like giving my players 150 vague ideas, rumours and bits of gossip and then letting them decide to pursue a couple. This means more work for me (you need to have at least some details for all 150 and have to flesh out at least a few prior to the game) but I think ultimatly allows for the group to do whatever they want.

But I can see the worth of having these sorts of "achievement" check-points, as you've suggested.


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- last words of unknown merc, Harlech, 3067

StCptMara

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #57 on: 05 May 2013, 20:37:22 »
Also, for the Combat Junkie, have you tried referring to dialog, diplomacy, etc as "Social Combat"?
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

"Greetings, Mechwarrior! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against---Oops, wrong universe" - Unknown SLDF Recruiter

Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

guardiandashi

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #58 on: 05 May 2013, 22:23:31 »
diplomacy war by another means....

StCptMara

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Re: Need some GM diplomacy advice (Pathfinder)
« Reply #59 on: 05 May 2013, 23:54:24 »
diplomacy war by another means....

Actually, it is "War is politics by other means."
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

"Greetings, Mechwarrior! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against---Oops, wrong universe" - Unknown SLDF Recruiter

Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

 

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