Poll

Does the Taurian Concordat need a tank like the Rommel?

OMG yes, they need to clone it now, they're DOOMED without it.
1 (4.3%)
They do need a real MBT, not neccessarily the Newest commercial Lyran product
15 (65.2%)
They can buy a good tank...if they need it
0 (0%)
Maybe some hull variants...nothing too extreme here.
3 (13%)
Taurian armor is more than sufficient for what purpose it serves.
4 (17.4%)

Total Members Voted: 23

Voting closed: 01 March 2011, 19:35:13

Author Topic: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?  (Read 40823 times)

tomaddamz

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #30 on: 08 February 2011, 16:44:12 »
Wow ...

Step away for a couple hours and look at what you get.

Let see if I can explain what I see here...there's no time I'll sum up

Doctrine on the need and use for a heavy tank has not been settled; at this point we are not sure what mission goal this vehicle is supposed to have (i.e. what problem does it solve).  We understand the motivation for the Concordant to be self sufficient in any unit to be acquired in quantity, therefore production should concentrate on items already built in house.

So far there appear to be 2 ideas as to what kind of heavy tank should exist...a 3/5 tank with a variety of weapons to cover short to long and heavy armor, or existing 60 tonners in the Bulldog and Manticore designs.  While these are the examples, they are not the defining criteria.

Any heavy tank is going to work in an existing framework of vehicles with infantry, BattleMechs may or may not be present in the TO&E of these units so they may be the major combat unit.

So lets settle some questions first.

1). What is the intended role of the Heavy tank?  How does it interact with existing vehicles?  Which vehicles work well with the new heavy tank.

2).  Does a lighter chassis perform substantially the same role that a heavier chassis will?  It is a waste of resources to build a heavy tank that does not outperform a medium tank (tech level and propulsion tech specifically being equal)

3).  Power units should be sourced within the Concordant from types that can or have been built.  (document where the powerplant was used before in Taurian units).

Other than that, let us debate the merits of the basic design elements that we may come up with.







Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Taurianspy

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #31 on: 08 February 2011, 16:56:20 »
Actually, folks, check p. 143 of Handbook: Major Periphery States. It does have the Rommel in production on Alpheratz. It's just not produced on Perdition.

It's not something I like much, but barring directives from above to change it, them's canon.

That is classic.

News Flash, Taurian Press.

Reporter:  "It is with our greatest sympathies that we have to report the previous reports that Rommel Tanks were being built at Perdition were incorrect.  Further investigation revieled that Mr Jack Lockler, a local farmer on Perdition, had ordered new farm equipment from Alpheratz and recieved the Rommel Tanks."

Reporter:  "Mr Lockler, do you have a minute?"

Mr. Lockler:  "Yes?"

Reporter:  "Is it true you ordered the Rommel Tanks from Alphertaz?"

Mr. Lockler:  "Well, No.  I ordered a combine and a new manuer spreader."

Reporter:  "Were you suprised when the Rommel Tanks were delivered?"

Mr Lockler:  "As a matter of fact I was.  The shipping reciept indicated that the Alpheratz cattle that were included to pull the Rommels in the field had been backordered."

Reporter:  "Back to you Gene"

Reporter Gene:  "There you go, straight from the farmers mouth, The Alpheratz cattle were backordered."  "In other news...."


Sorry OA's I coldn't help myself. LOL
"Bosephus" and "Stumprunner" was not just a man and his mech.  They were a style of play that left everyone thinking about the impact of piloting skill on the game.  Unconscious pilots and prone mechs are easy targets even for poor marksman.

ColBosch

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #32 on: 08 February 2011, 17:08:31 »
Hey, I'm the author/editor/fact-checker/errata coordiantor who forgot that Alpheratz isn't even in the TC. :D
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Stormfury

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #33 on: 08 February 2011, 17:29:56 »
Quote
Until the re-release of TRO 3039, although rumors ran rampant, the Rommel issue was still up in the air.  Without an official retcon, the Rommel maintained its position as the TC main battle tank.   In addition, the canon that stated the retcon remained in obscurity because the publication that the Retcon was listed in failed to proliferate.  The Historical War of 3039 I only purchased because it was 12 bucks on clearance.  I still do not own the TRO:  3039 because it is a rehash of publications that I already have.  As for the Ask the writers forum, many of the people reading the forums don not use that forum.

Of course, there is the statement in H: MPS that it has never been produced at Perdition.

Quote
1). What is the intended role of the Heavy tank?

Basically, it needs to be able to contend with the most frequent competitors it will see. This means the Vedette, Bulldog, and Manticore.

Quote
2).  Does a lighter chassis perform substantially the same role that a heavier chassis will?

Whilst I still favour the 3/5 75-tonner, you can do something similar with the Bulldog at 60 tons. However, this basically turns the machine into the Po. Whether this is worthwhile or not is up to the individual.

Quote
3).  Power units should be sourced within the Concordant from types that can or have been built.

Any 'Mech facility also producing fusion engines on-site will only be manufacturing them in numbers sufficient to construct new 'Mechs and provide a pool of spare parts. Supporting a new MBT is not really an option, as they lack the heavy industry required to pull it off. Whilst the Concordat is smaller than the Lyran Commonwealth and its defence arm also less numerous, the problem remains the same- lack of adequate manufacture. If a Great House is struggling to get it together for a new fusion tank, the Periphery is by very definition in a worse position. When it's the most powerful nation economically and from a manufacturing standpoint having trouble setting it up, well...

However, ICE power plants are relatively simple and manufacture of a completely new class should be well within their capabilities, plus or minus a few hiccups at first.
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tomaddamz

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #34 on: 08 February 2011, 18:07:14 »

Basically, it needs to be able to contend with the most frequent competitors it will see. This means the Vedette, Bulldog, and Manticore.

While not a bad place to start, I do not necessarily agree with this statement.  To take your statement at face value, specifically dealing with Vehicles, then a mostly missile armament would be preferred to draw motive hits and attrit the lesser armor locations available.   Now as we all know most moderately zippy Mechs need crunch to take them down.  If this a defensive unit intended to stop an invading force of Mechs, missiles will be of somewhat less utility, and there are many missile firing units in the Taurian military.

Whilst I still favour the 3/5 75-tonner, you can do something similar with the Bulldog at 60 tons. However, this basically turns the machine into the Po. Whether this is worthwhile or not is up to the individual.

The point of the thread is to discuss the relative merits of movement/protection/firepower and what proportion they are needed to stop a certain target set.  The only constraints I have set are that the vehicle be Heavy ( 60 to 75 ton ) and not have a medium tank capable of doing the same task at very similar levels of performance ( speed, protection, and firepower) within the same propulsion tech.

Any 'Mech facility also producing fusion engines on-site will only be manufacturing them in numbers sufficient to construct new 'Mechs and provide a pool of spare parts. Supporting a new MBT is not really an option, as they lack the heavy industry required to pull it off. Whilst the Concordat is smaller than the Lyran Commonwealth and its defence arm also less numerous, the problem remains the same- lack of adequate manufacture. If a Great House is struggling to get it together for a new fusion tank, the Periphery is by very definition in a worse position. When it's the most powerful nation economically and from a manufacturing standpoint having trouble setting it up, well...

However, ICE power plants are relatively simple and manufacture of a completely new class should be well within their capabilities, plus or minus a few hiccups at first.
we are assuming that the Fusion Engine is the limiting factor in Mech production, this may not be the case.  To use the example of the Warner 225 fusion engine, the major use of the engine was the propulsion plant of the Sabre light fighter produced on Organo, what happens to the engine production if the chassis and production line either fall to an invader or are destroyed?  Conversely fusion engines may be a limiting factor and ICE may be called for.  Just because this is the Periphery do not assume that all challenges are equal.  The Taurians were able to produce the ER Medium Laser in house where House Kurita still has no domestic manufacture of the same weapon.
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Stormfury

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #35 on: 08 February 2011, 18:17:55 »
Quote
we are assuming that the Fusion Engine is the limiting factor in Mech production, this may not be the case.

There are many limiting factors in 'Mech production. That is just one of them. The issue at hand, however, is that fusion engines are prioritised for 'Mechs and AeroSpace Fighters. In the Succession War era, it is not really feasible for a Periphery state to re-task them for the mass-production of tanks.

Quote
The Taurians were able to produce the ER Medium Laser in house where House Kurita still has no domestic manufacture of the same weapon.

The Combine is producing the Diverse Optics brand at a number of sites, for use on things like the Valiant and Wight.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
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Taurianspy

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #36 on: 09 February 2011, 16:14:17 »
1). What is the intended role of the Heavy tank?  How does it interact with existing vehicles?  Which vehicles work well with the new heavy tank.


In TRO: 3050, Upgrade, page 164, Chaparrel, the Notable Crews description brings to light the problem.

"...Though they fought tenaciously, the Manticore and Plainsmen tanks where simply overmatched by the Panzer assault 'Mechs and suffered fifty percent losses in a dozen minutes."

The manticore with it's main PPC and support LRM designate Long Range Fire Support.  An AC 20 heavy tracked vehicle would in most cases need a fusion engine to match the speed of the Manticore, a vehicle already implimented because of its speed to better pace with lighter mech forces (in comparison to ICE models).  In the case of the indicated Commandos , although they are a lighter mech force, and their force composition supports their response role, they do use heavy vehicles (the manticore).  Also supported, is a need for a vehicle that can support their change in role to a more static defensive role.  In the role of static defense, they are more likely to be the target of assault (atleast in the Taurian mindset).  When mated with the Manticore, the heavy AC20 model vehicle supported by a LRM forces an opposing force to close or endure modest long range fire support.  When closing, the AC 20 becomes an effective delaying tool, allowing Manticores to better maintain effective range.  In the situation above, it enforces a speculation that without other options, the Plainsman was implimented and the Plainsman/Manticore pair did not have the capabilities to delay the assault forces.  Although the TC has a similiar capability in pairing SRM/LRM Carriers, these vehicles movement and armor limitations deem them practically useless outside of urban environments.   
 

   
"Bosephus" and "Stumprunner" was not just a man and his mech.  They were a style of play that left everyone thinking about the impact of piloting skill on the game.  Unconscious pilots and prone mechs are easy targets even for poor marksman.

XaosGorilla

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #37 on: 09 February 2011, 18:58:26 »
     Well, looking at the TC production lists, i don't see anything, mech or otherwise, that has an AC-20. So area denial and/or close assault strike me as a real role the Taurians would need filled. If this tank were to be used to supplement heavy mech forces (most likely archers and or marauders) then that would dictate a speed of 4/6.
      That MAY be doable on a 60t I.C.E. powered tank, but the tank would be (very) limited, NEEDING the support of an additional tank or mech to provide long range fire.  It is possible to downgrade the AC to an AC-10, but is an AC-10 really an area denial weapon? 
      Further, wouldn't this tank be expected to participate in the initial defense of the planet, PRIOR to the arrival of most(or even ANY) friendly mech forces? To me, this would indicate a multiple role tank as part of the requirement. 
      Those requirements supersede the need for mobility.  The thinking being if the tank(s) can't destroy, delay, deny, or survive the enemy until friendly reinforcements arrive (it wasn't ever going to be fast enough to run away), then it hasn't done it's job.
      So, for a final analysis, I'd probably go with an I.C.E. powered Rommel (or an Axel), dropping the speed to 3/5, boosting the LRM rack to a 10, and adding a machine gun. (Apologies, I'm TRYING to not post a tank design here, but I do want an example of my line of thought).

     At least I'm thinking... sorta...

tomaddamz

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #38 on: 09 February 2011, 19:13:36 »
Thank you

This is the exact kind of questions I want to be asked, we must first have a mission before we build anything.

Also feel free to post any designs that you may have on the Companion Thread©™.

Let mission define form, not the other way.   I try to keep polite, I don't always suceed with that, but I hope the resultant truth is worth the bruised egos  [tickedoff] ;D
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

jeyar

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #39 on: 10 February 2011, 03:47:53 »
What the TC needs now for their defense is assault MML-3 launcher tank (say with 20 to 22 on a turret).
If they decide they just MUST have an fusion engine, have a PPC as well.

THATS what they need.  ;D

Liam's Ghost

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #40 on: 10 February 2011, 03:51:13 »
What they need right now is to lock Boris Tharn, Cham Kithrong, and Victor Sharpe in a room with a gun with two bullets.

And an armed hydrogen bomb.

Pimpin new rides can come after you get rid of all the irresponsible joyriders.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #41 on: 10 February 2011, 13:44:09 »
What they need right now is to lock Boris Tharn, Cham Kithrong, and Victor Sharpe in a room with a gun with two bullets.

And an armed hydrogen bomb.

Pimpin new rides can come after you get rid of all the irresponsible joyriders.


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wookiebear

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #42 on: 11 February 2011, 12:48:16 »
One of the major factors in the type of battle tank the Condordat would need depends upon the mission.

Since the noble house forces are the most widespread within the TC it would need to support their mission, which is defensive in nature. I have always thought of the noble forces job is to delay the raiders/invaders until support arrives or make the target expensive enough to dissuade attack. In my mind this matches much of the capabilities written about the TC forces both historically and currently, i.e. make the invaders pay in blood for anything they gain

With that in mind you could get away with a heavily armored unit that main mission would be to do as much damage as possible. It would need endurance as much if not more than speed to fulfill this goal. If used in conjunction with the lighter units available as screen and supported by infantry they could be a hard nut to crack. A mix of missile boats and AC main battery's would preclude the need to use Fusion engines and reduce cost and high tech supporting infrastructure.

I think (key words there) that it would be a home grown version of either an existing design (ala Axel) or a new design and would be based on ICE and available weaponry and control components for ease of support

there you go, my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it   8)

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tomaddamz

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #43 on: 11 February 2011, 13:52:04 »
Well...

So far the trend is toward a slow I.C.E., heavily armed LRM and AC and armored unit...and at the Companion Thread™©® there are some designs that do indeed fit this description.  There are some exceptions as well.

From a standpoint of doctrine, how do these designs perform at their designated tasks.  A SWOT analysis type format would probably most useful in a per unit (naked, no supporting arms) and "rational*" Company level formations suited to a tactical battlefield goal.  Don't be afraid to "Red Teamâ„¢" these formations to discover possible weaknesses as well, I am not asking for MegaMek simulations, more of a gut feeling for now.


* "rational" is used in the sense that one would build a unit around expected and common Taurian vehicles.
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Taurianspy

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #44 on: 13 February 2011, 01:07:12 »
In a broad and sweeping generalization, by far the most reluctant use of a fusion engine comes from those that are not of the Taurian faction.  It is hard for one to understand perceived need when they do not have the need themselves, nor can the length to which one will go to obtain that perceived need be understood.  I good man will steal a loaf of bread if he is left with no other alternative.

The first issue is one of military necessity.  Does the TC need to build the tank itself and why is outside purchase not reasonable?  One of the ultimate goals of a military is to maintain sustainability, or self sufficiency.  A military that is reliant on outside source is susceptible to supply interuptions outside of their control as well as that source being attacked or interupted.  The interupted supply of a primary combat vehicle is unacceptable when a reasonable alternative is available.  That alternative is a MBT being built in the TC.  That does not include building a MBT at an exterior TC location like Perdition, which can also have its supply chain interupted, but a location of reasonable security like the Hyades Cluster.

The next two issue to address is a need for a Main Battle Tank and what role will it fulfill and how will it supplement what the TC already uses.  The role for a MBT is addresses above in the current TO&E's inability to defend against assault forces, supported by the Chaparral's canon, and a TO&E that previously had the Rommel listed.  Errata reasoning was the technology and origin, not need or role.  If there was no need for one, one would not have been designated to fulfill that role and the Rommel errata would not have been needed due to that technology.  The role that is most often suggested, has been a MBT.  Predominant criteria has been the ability to threaten any mechs on the battlefield, be effective at holding off enemy battlemechs until local battlemech forces can arrive and support our own heavy battlemechs forces in offense.  Primary weapon so far discussed has been the AC20, and the need to support heavy battlemechs dictates a speed of 4/6.  The logical solution is the use of a fusion engine to fulfill that criteria.

The final objection is specific canon objections to a fusion engine.  All canon arguments that have been brought forth, have either had their validity reduced or completely discredited.  The objection to the TC using fusion engines in their vehicles is discredited with multiple uses including the Gabriel, Cyrano, Chaparral, J Edgar, Hunter, and the numerous other vehicles that the TC supports.  They include industrial capability to build the engines, which included 2 separate canon factories that already build them. The ability to create, adapt or restart a line to produce them has been countered with canon proof that the Taurians have already done so even at the battlemech production level without outside help.  The issue of the number of engines available has been countered with canon reference to increased production, and determination that the canon put forth was a specific instance.

In summary, substantial argument has been brought forth to support the need, role, criteria, and ability of the TC to have a MBT produced in the TC.  Development of this tank should be era specific as a replacement of the Rommel Tank, pre 3025 to present (reasonably much earlier and could include Star League link to original refitting of factory by Star League after the Reunification War.)

It is in my recommendation that TC faction members proceed with development based on need, role and criteria in efforts to present a thorough presentation to the writers.  Ultimately, the decision will be in their hands and a thorough presentation can only help our cause.  A second recommendation would be to focus on progressing forward on the issues of need, role and criteria like weapon load definition, possible new weapon technology incorporation, etc.

Keep posting your ideas

"Bosephus" and "Stumprunner" was not just a man and his mech.  They were a style of play that left everyone thinking about the impact of piloting skill on the game.  Unconscious pilots and prone mechs are easy targets even for poor marksman.

Stormfury

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #45 on: 13 February 2011, 05:18:04 »
Quote
In a broad and sweeping generalization, by far the most reluctant use of a fusion engine comes from those that are not of the Taurian faction.  It is hard for one to understand perceived need when they do not have the need themselves, nor can the length to which one will go to obtain that perceived need be understood.

People are avoiding the use of fusion engines not out of a "LOL TUARINAS" mentality, but because the Succession Wars were a time when they simply weren't available. The Fusion engines in use on the J. Edgar and Hunter are not used in any other class of vehicle, and so are not in demand for refitting to damaged 'Mechs and ASFs the way other fusion engines were. Even so, the J. Edgar's entry in TR: 3039 notes that the vehicle is frequently fitted with an ICE power plant because the fusion engine it uses is so dificult to repair or replace.

If you can find a way to run an MBT on a 145 or 175 power plant, sure. Knock yourself out.

Quote
That does not include building a MBT at an exterior TC location like Perdition, which can also have its supply chain interupted, but a location of reasonable security like the Hyades Cluster.

Your choices during the Succession Wars are Sterope (Hunter, APCs, Maultier in later years), New Vandenburg (Hunter), Pinard (Vedette), Pinard (Plainsman), or Perdition (Vedette, J. Edgar, Fulcrum). The heaviest vehicles and most concentrated industry is at Perdition, which is why it is being selected.

Quote
If there was no need for one, one would not have been designated to fulfill that role and the Rommel errata would not have been needed due to that technology.

None was ever so designated.

Quote
The next two issue to address is a need for a Main Battle Tank and what role will it fulfill and how will it supplement what the TC already uses.  The role for a MBT is addresses above in the current TO&E's inability to defend against assault forces, supported by the Chaparral's canon,

The Chaparral became extinct outside the Com Guard and was rare even after going back into production on Terra.

Quote
...Gabriel, Cyrano, Chaparral, J Edgar, Hunter, and the numerous other vehicles that the TC supports.

The Gabriel was not built within the Concordat until after the Clan Invasion. It was lost outside of ComStar during the Succession Wars.

The Cyrano plant was destroyed during Holy Shroud, and the vehicle itself was a casualty of the Succession Wars. The others have already been addressed.

During the Succession Wars (and, for the Periphery probably until the early-to-mid 3060s) fusion engines simply aren't available. When your choice is between keeping a 'Mech or ASF combat-ready and repairing a vehicle, the 'Mech or ASF will win every time.

Quote
I good man will steal a loaf of bread if he is left with no other alternative.

And when there are no loaves to steal? Which, even if we apply this rather tortured analogy to the situation, is exactly what is happening.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
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Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #46 on: 13 February 2011, 06:37:55 »
What they need right now is to lock Boris Tharn, Cham Kithrong, and Victor Sharpe in a room with a gun with two bullets.

And an armed hydrogen bomb.

Pimpin new rides can come after you get rid of all the irresponsible joyriders.

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It was painful for me to see the Taurian using a Quijote to throw nukes to people. For those that don't know it, the Bull is a symbol of Spain. And the Quijote (not Quixote) is the best book written in Spanish. Seeing those symbols used that way is painful. I hope the TC return to "normal" rulers. The Calderons of the first Star League were good examples.
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Stormfury

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #47 on: 13 February 2011, 07:15:27 »
The ones who antagonised the Suns and the League into declaring war on them, or the ones who gave Amaris the chance to strike?
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

tomaddamz

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #48 on: 13 February 2011, 11:30:41 »
To again, quickly sum up...

point one
Military necessity...yep, existing forces don't hit hard enough to stand up on their own, something heavier is definitely needed.

point two...kinda redundant, fluff examples repeat the obvious, too light on firepower to achieve their objective.

Point Three...

The messy one we are all fighting about...



   While the capability of manufacturing a fusion plants exist, we do not know what part of the food chain for Mechs and Aerospace fighter would be impacted.  While technically possible, as in the capability exist, I feel that it would be best to build with ICE as that will be available. and will integrate better with the back end logistics, service personnel, and allow me to afford more maneuver units for the same spending.  Looking at the Companion thread™©³®, we see some potential here to address the problem.  What we should be addressing is not whether the tank is Fusion or not (it's not, so there :P), But what problem will it solve, and how will it help existing units perform their objectives...


« Last Edit: 13 February 2011, 12:13:32 by tomaddamz »
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Ruger

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #49 on: 13 February 2011, 12:21:52 »
Again, a reminder to all posters, please do not post your own personal designs in any message threads outside of the appropriate Fan Design forum.

Please see the Combat Vehicles Fan Design forum for the latest design that was posted in this thread.

Thank you,

Ruger
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tomaddamz

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #50 on: 13 February 2011, 12:34:49 »
People are avoiding the use of fusion engines not out of a "LOL TUARINAS" mentality, but because the Succession Wars were a time when they simply weren't available. The Fusion engines in use on the J. Edgar and Hunter are not used in any other class of vehicle, and so are not in demand for refitting to damaged 'Mechs and ASFs the way other fusion engines were. Even so, the J. Edgar's entry in TR: 3039 notes that the vehicle is frequently fitted with an ICE power plant because the fusion engine it uses is so difficult to repair or replace.

And I almost completely agree with this statement, it is not as if Fusion Engines possible, they are simply going somewhere else with a higher priority.  However...

If you can find a way to run an MBT on a 145 or 175 power plant, sure. Knock yourself out.

it's actually not that hard with the 175 Fusion. {post now sanitized for your protection, my bad...sorry}



Your choices during the Succession Wars are Sterope (Hunter, APCs, Maultier in later years), New Vandenburg (Hunter), Pinard (Vedette), Pinard (Plainsman), or Perdition (Vedette, J. Edgar, Fulcrum). The heaviest vehicles and most concentrated industry is at Perdition, which is why it is being selected.


I am fine with that reasoning.


The Chaparral became extinct outside the Com Guard and was rare even after going back into production on Terra.

I think he was just using the fluff to illustrate what he felt the deficiency in Taurian forces was, not to implicate that the Taurian forces manufactured the Chaparral

The Gabriel was not built within the Concordat until after the Clan Invasion. It was lost outside of ComStar during the Succession Wars.

The Cyrano plant was destroyed during Holy Shroud, and the vehicle itself was a casualty of the Succession Wars. The others have already been addressed.

During the Succession Wars (and, for the Periphery probably until the early-to-mid 3060s) fusion engines simply aren't available. When your choice is between keeping a 'Mech or ASF combat-ready and repairing a vehicle, the 'Mech or ASF will win every time.

And when there are no loaves to steal? Which, even if we apply this rather tortured analogy to the situation, is exactly what is happening.

And I agree with the reasoning.  Except for the Hunter, why would I waste good fusion engines on that piece of crap...it doesn't make good use of them :P
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Stormfury

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #51 on: 13 February 2011, 20:02:36 »
The Hunter's actually a very nice little tank. Lightest LRM-20 deployment machine in the game. I might prefer it with an LRM-15 and a pair of forward-facing MLs and some additional armour, but honestly it does quite well for itself.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
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Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

tomaddamz

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #52 on: 13 February 2011, 20:25:00 »
The Hunter's actually a very nice little tank. Lightest LRM-20 deployment machine in the game. I might prefer it with an LRM-15 and a pair of forward-facing MLs and some additional armour, but honestly it does quite well for itself.

As you note, any Fusion Combat Vehicle that does not take advantage of it's free heat sinks is wasted potential.
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Stormfury

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #53 on: 13 February 2011, 20:32:13 »
Not really. The Hunter can operate in a lot of environments where ICEs can't, and has no deployment limit other than crew needs and provisioning.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

XaosGorilla

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #54 on: 14 February 2011, 20:54:21 »
      I remember reading in the old forums that HERB himself said the taurian production of the rommel was retconed. I understand that. However, the factory is still there, and still using the materials to produce... well... something? right?  So if the factory is consuming the materials to build a 60 ton, FSE powered, tracked vehicle, would it not then follow that the vehicle coming off the line would also be able to be similar or even identical?
      I guess a more simple question would be: If an asset being produced, is later RetConed, are the materials and labor that were used to make the now retconed asset, also themselves retconed?
       So much for simplicity...
     I apologize for asking this question.  I DID do a Search for "retcon" only found about 14-18 mentions(was kinda surprised) and none of them answered that.  Not even the "Zillion and one questions about retcons" thread by Frabby. :'(
      Now, I'm going to go get the mental floss and clean this unclean lawyerly thought from my brain...

Liam's Ghost

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #55 on: 14 February 2011, 21:31:31 »
Technically, the entries were never themselves retconned. The old text is still considered valid as an in universe document, just not an accurate in universe document. They're listed in production because a comstar adept mistook sightings of the units in question for proof that they were being built.

So to answer your question, the factory exists, but canonically (according to current production lists) isn't producing the Rommel or anything like it.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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tomaddamz

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #56 on: 14 February 2011, 21:32:36 »
Pour me a Mind Eraserâ„¢ while you are it. :)

I look at this way, the Rommel was retconned...I accept it...fine.

Looking at what Taurian Production remained...well, there's a problem...what's left is really ineffective up close and against mechs' in particular.

Now I'd like to think that somebody could do staff work in Samantha, and realize their Conventional units were inefficient in general, and ineffective against Mechs in particular and do something about it.  I think most of the ideas we have actually put to prospective designs do fill the gap.  The know how is there, but what path does the Taurian Mlitary-Industrial Complex take?

Now I am truly afraid what the writers will come up with.  Maybe we have un-intentionally hit upon "Too Good®" an idea, and now they can't use that.  Maybe they will just license Capellan Vehicles, or take the easy way out and do nothing.  I cannot say with certainty in any case.

It was is my hope that this thread and it's ensuing discussion would strike the writers as a serious discussion that a Military-Industrial complex would have...find a need...articulate a solution...match industrial means to achieve a positive result.  It could just be my Narcissistic Sideâ„¢ talking, but I'd really like to know if anybody out there feels that I have a point.
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

tomaddamz

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #57 on: 14 February 2011, 21:39:03 »
Technically, the entries were never themselves retconned. The old text is still considered valid as an in universe document, just not an accurate in universe document. They're listed in production because a comstar adept mistook sightings of the units in question for proof that they were being built.

So to answer your question, the factory exists, but canonically (according to current production lists) isn't producing the Rommel or anything like it.

Huh?...

So I have a Heavy Fusion Vehicle Factory that is idle?  What happened...revolution...vacation...did somebody fart...:).  The Taurian Concordat is in a shooting war using resources, resources like men and mechs and tanks, these things get dead and need to be replaced.  I and going to CarpetBomb some Catgirls and say there is no way this would happen.  I don't totally understand why the RetCon happened, but by that tortured reasoning alone, it is a poor choice.
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #58 on: 14 February 2011, 21:56:55 »
No, they have a production plant that was alleged to be producing the Rommel. It doesn't produce the rommel, but it does produce a variety of other vehicles. There are no resources sitting idle, because there were never any resources allocated to the Rommel in the first place.

The retcon (such as it is) happened because the Rommel was a brand new tank at the time it was listed as being built by the Taurians, even though it was designed and built by a nation half a sphere away.

(oh, and by the way, for those who blame the current crop of writers, this retcon extends all the way back to the original printing of tro 3050, where the first mention of a company of Panzer Brigade troops bringing the Hatchetman to the Concordat comes up. The Rommel is a continuation of the same fifteen(?) year old line of thought)

Certainly it says nothing about the Concordat, save that they don't feel the need to devote resources to building a domestic fusion powered close assault tank, but do feel the need to produce fusion powered hover and fire support armor, as well as a nice host of heavy battlemechs.

Personally, I'd rather see them pick up another medium mech than specialist close assault vehicle.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Stormfury

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Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?
« Reply #59 on: 14 February 2011, 22:02:29 »
Quote
I remember reading in the old forums that HERB himself said the taurian production of the rommel was retconed. I understand that. However, the factory is still there, and still using the materials to produce... well... something? right?

There are vehicle production facilities at Perdition. They just don't make the parts to put together a Rommel. They build the Vedette, J. Edgar, and Fulcrum there, and in later years add the Light SRM Carrier. That's it.

Quote
Looking at what Taurian Production remained...well, there's a problem...what's left is really ineffective up close and against mechs' in particular.

Welcome to the wonderful world of everyone who isn't a Lyran.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*