BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => The Periphery => Topic started by: Medron Pryde on 26 January 2011, 20:34:48
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I've seen some of the other nations getting a thread. So here is one where us Taurians can hang out, either the old Taurus or the New New Taurus out on Lastpost.
I still remember, back in the day, in 1992 or so, when I started BattleTech I went to Marik. I was only offered five factions to play by the people in charge of the campaign, so that is what I picked. Then I got a hold of the 3058 Periphery sourcebook and I realized there was an entire new dimension of a universe to play in. A world where the Star League was the Bad Guy, where Amaris was a hero fighting for the people, and the fall of the "Great Houses" was a good thing. I was hooked.
The part of me that liked AeroSpace enjoyed the Outworlds, the part of me that enjoyed...well...joy...:). I didn't really like much about the Marians of the time, but the stubborn Bulls grabbed me.
A free society where education is important, where everybody serves in the defense of the nation. Where the Department of Propaganda is named exactly that. :) There are so many things to like about the Taurians. :)
And of course, THEN I got Periphery First and I learned more. In the end, that Taurian Concordat is one of the funnest factions in the game IMHO.
What do you think?
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Of all the factions in the game the Taurians are my favorite. While they have their problems I relate to them better than other factions. I may respect the Capellans for being able to survive the hardships and insane rulers they've been subjected to but I identify with the Taurians. They may not be the largest, or most fiat-gifted, or reasonable at times, but they've never given up and continued even as the world fell on their heads. What happened during the Jihad is one of the prime reasons I just ignore the entire Jihad.
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Along with the Free Worlds League, the Concordat is my favourite second faction of choice. I admire their stuborness and how they enter that 'berserker mode' every time someone threatens their homeworlds. I'm dying to see both Field Report: Periphery (hope they'll manage to keep the Vendetta) and, especially, Historical: Reunification War. Chapters about the action on Taurian front are my favourite read both in Star League Sourcebook and the original Periphery sourcebook.
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Well, I think the Taurians are just great! Especially during the 3rd Succession War, and I love them equally with the Outworld's Alliance. As a house warming present, I'm sure you'll enjoy this little guy I posted in the Combat Vehicle forums...
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=427.0
I can't give you the CapCon, but I hope this will be a humble substitute :)
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The Taurians will forever hold a special place for me. They were my first faction back in the day. '88 or '89. Stomping around in a rickety Marauder and fighting pirates. Good times.
Not too happy with what's become of them in canon, but they're not dead yet, so there's always hope.
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the Taurians were the first industrial, cultural and military power back to the 3025 era, without to speak about free thinking, the place of choice for a reborn periphery... [drool]
what a misery to see this proud nation fall apart... [tickedoff]
In particular for the fedrat player who explore the periphery... ::).
But like always taurians will rise again and take is complete and rightfull revenge against davion... }:)
This minor house is in my point of view largely more sympathetic and funny than the other periphery power... And largely more than the great house. :)
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Hey! Who are the cow guys and why are we at war with them? - AFFS High Command
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Says the man with the "my little cthulu" Atlas....
}:)
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He he he, I hereby notify the nation of the bull to keep your Far Lookers in check lest they snoop around one of our old OA settlements and we Ravens mistake them for pirates. }:)
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He he he, I hereby notify the nation of the bull to keep your Far Lookers in check lest they snoop around one of our old OA settlements and we Ravens mistake them for pirates. }:)
And ravens should remember they fly around in fragile eggshells that don't handle a few hundred kilotons of boom very well. Check my sig vatbrat :P
But he does give me a few interesting AU ideas. Instead of ignoring the periphery because it isn't one of the Sacred Five, the upheaval and change in focus caused by the Clan Invasion takes a lot of pressure off the Taurians. And if they hadn't been repeatedly passed the idiot ball plenty of opportunity for them to grow and prosper in the wake of the 3050s.
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Here's to the Taurus that was, the Calderon that is and the Taurus that should have been.
*cheers*
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Now that I can't disagree with. The main Taurians have been going nuts lately.
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Long live Erik Calderon the true Protector. down with the pretenders
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Now that I can disagree with. The main Taurians have been going nuts lately.
"That was" is implied to be pre-Shraplen. Say what you will about Mad Tom, but at least he was stopped in time.
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I might be one of the few people here who actually likes Shraplen/Tharn Taurians over Calderon Taurians. At least, they're doing something about the Davion threat, no matter how imaginable it is, rather than sitting in their bunkers and waiting for the invaders to invade. I can see how Taurian fans might be angry with their faction going 'nuts' and breaking apart, but on the other hand... they went there and freakin' plastered the FedSuns March capital. "How 'bout that, Inner Sphere scum?"
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"That was" is implied to be pre-Shraplen. Say what you will about Mad Tom, but at least he was stopped in time.
As shown by the edit, that's supposed to be "can't", not can. I changed from can agree to can't disagree and missed something.
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;D
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...I still dream of a great and powerful Taurian Navy rising from long-dead ashes like the Phoenix of old.
The Concordat is my favorite Periphery faction by far. It's society appeals to me more so than any other group out there. I too, am a browncoat.
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As shown by the edit, that's supposed to be "can't", not can. I changed from can agree to can't disagree and missed something.
Your ninja edit was 2 minutes after my post.
How Capellan of you. :D
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I might be one of the few people here who actually likes Shraplen/Tharn Taurians over Calderon Taurians. At least, they're doing something about the Davion threat, no matter how imaginable it is, rather than sitting in their bunkers and waiting for the invaders to invade. I can see how Taurian fans might be angry with their faction going 'nuts' and breaking apart, but on the other hand... they went there and freakin' plastered the FedSuns March capital. "How 'bout that, Inner Sphere scum?"
I have to say, my inner Capellan quite enjoyed that.
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Your ninja edit was 2 minutes after my post.
How Capellan of you. :D
1 minute and 5 seconds. Your post wasn't there when I hit modify. It was when I finished.
Such is message board life.
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He he he, I hereby notify the nation of the bull to keep your Far Lookers in check lest they snoop around one of our old OA settlements and we Ravens mistake them for pirates. }:)
As a Taurian, I look forward to that day. The personality of Taurian marines could impress the Ravens like the OA fighter jocks did. A similiar situation like the OA could get the SASF Harjel and a new asteroid defense battlesuit in exchange for the rare raw material need to make the Hargel. A straight deal with a wandering Clan merchant would work too.
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I might be one of the few people here who actually likes Shraplen/Tharn Taurians over Calderon Taurians. At least, they're doing something about the Davion threat, no matter how imaginable it is, rather than sitting in their bunkers and waiting for the invaders to invade. I can see how Taurian fans might be angry with their faction going 'nuts' and breaking apart, but on the other hand... they went there and freakin' plastered the FedSuns March capital. "How 'bout that, Inner Sphere scum?"
The problem with Shraplen/Tharn is they are the excuse for the writers to dipict the Taurians as morons. Access to the old boards would show that I provided a framework for a strike against New Syrtis long ago, argueing the fact that it should have been done as far back as the 1st Successor War. I supplied supportive materials that showed in every major engagement that the Davion strikes against the Capellans always left the TC border exposed, and together the CC and the TC (even if they did not coordinate together) could have broke the Davion aggressions and made modest gains in territory. One thing I warned against was not to overextend. The first step of the TC strategy was to pin and eliminate military forces (specifically Wylie's Coyotes in 3028 and Hanson's Roughriders after 3050). Without eliminating opposing force, the TC was suceptable to counter attack. A border wide advance could not be accomplished without eliminating specific key military targets. It appears that almost every warning I included was used as a framework for writing the TC dibolicles.
A real world example played out last night in the Super Bowl that can characterize limited offense to support defense. In the closing minutes of the first half, Green Bay was marching for a score. Green Bay was up 14-3, first down inside the 20 with around 3 minutes left to play in the half. Green Bay scores on a pass to Jennings and goes up 21-3. But, on the ensueing drive, Pittsburg drives the field and scores with roughly 18 seconds left in the half. Green Bay eventually won the game and the point becomes mute, but I will explain more logical call play.
Green Bay should have ran the ball for the three downs to eat up the clock, and kicked the field goal. If they score a touchdown on any down with the exception of the first play, Pittsburg doesn't have the time needed to score at the end of the half and Pittsburg doesn't go into the locker room with an additional motivator. Barring a fluke play, which could happen at any time, the minimum halftime score would have been 17-3 instead of 21-10, a 14 point lead, not a 11 point lead. As the game played out, Green Bay covered the points, but I have shown the advantage of calling the game another way.
The relevance is that by taking too much, you are subsectable to counter attack, and as a whole, what you gain may provide an opportunity for your opponent to regain what they have lost. The example above also incorperates the use of a timing factor that allows Green Bay to extend or maintain its advantage. I can hear it now, but Battletech doesn't use a halftime time out. Technically it does. After every engagement of military forces, at every level of military organization whether it be tactical or strategical, rest, rebuild and recuperation of the forces involves impliments a form of halftime intermission to the game. After every Successor War, relative peace evolves between the combatants because the military forces have exhausted their ability to continue to fight. After every tactical battle, every unit is pulled back to repair damage, replace lost personnel, impliment training, resupply, etc., etc. etc. This rule is defined in scope as a nessasity because of the 'Pirahna principle' aspect in Battletech.
Look for my next lecture on the problems of the Pirhana Principle as implimented in the Battletech universe.
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The problem with Shraplen/Tharn is they are the excuse for the writers to dipict the Taurians as morons. Access to the old boards would show that I provided a framework for a strike against New Syrtis long ago, argueing the fact that it should have been done as far back as the 1st Successor War. I supplied supportive materials that showed in every major engagement that the Davion strikes against the Capellans always left the TC border exposed, and together the CC and the TC (even if they did not coordinate together) could have broke the Davion aggressions and made modest gains in territory. One thing I warned against was not to overextend. The first step of the TC strategy was to pin and eliminate military forces (specifically Wylie's Coyotes in 3028 and Hanson's Roughriders after 3050). Without eliminating opposing force, the TC was suceptable to counter attack. A border wide advance could not be accomplished without eliminating specific key military targets. It appears that almost every warning I included was used as a framework for writing the TC dibolicles.
I really don't think that the Taurians are depicted as morons. Overzealous, yes. Reckless, perhaps. But not stupid. They're acting completely in character.
The War of Davion Aggression, that we've been preparing for for almost half a century, finally happened. Maybe it had started even earlier, two or three decades ago. Maybe the chain of events isn't coincidental. Dedrickson's Devils, Edward's demise, Janice's illness, Doru's coup, Jeffrey's death, Fighting Urukhai incident, Roughriders rampage, Pleiades campaign, asteroid attack on Taurus. Hell, maybe they even fed poor Ian Calderon to Thraxan devourers. Maybe Thomas Calderon was right and that's why they deposed him. Maybe Grover Shraplen was right and that's why they killed him. Who was wrong then? Haji Doru was wrong and now he's a butler of the Capellan Chancellor's concubine. Cham Kithrong was wrong and now he's a traitor and a puppeteer to a merc bitch and her bastard.
But enough is enough. Time to go old school, Reunification War-style. Time to bring out those nukes. Time to get some revenge. And if that means selling our souls to the Blake Devil himself, then so be it. Bring it on.
I see the Jihad as the Taurian crowning moment of glory. They've actually managed to bring the war to their ancient foes, despite being severely outnumbered, outgunned and outclassed. Yes, they came out of the conflict battered and bruised, but they did come out of it nevertheless, if not victorious, but not defeated either.
And from OOC perspective, I've always thought that for a BattleTech faction, Taurians don't really get lot of actual battles to participate in. Aside from their short involvement in the St. Ives conflict, they haven't seen combat for a few centuries since their little clash with the Magistracy. Even the Canopians tried to invade the Great House at some point. All the Taurians had ever done was being paranoid about Davion threat, which is not much of a feat. Now, they can have all the action they want, fighting other Taurians, Davions, Capellans, Canopians, pirates and God knows whom else.
A real world example played out last night in the Super Bowl that can characterize limited offense to support defense. [...]
Man, one of these days I will have to learn to understand all those American football references :)
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But enough is enough. Time to go old school, Reunification War-style. Time to bring out those nukes. Time to get some revenge. And if that means selling our souls to the Blake Devil himself, then so be it. Bring it on.
The use of nukes in the Reunification War never happened.
Also, I find this attitude to be distasteful. :-\
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The use of nukes in the Reunification War never happened.
Technicality. WMDs did happen then, as did numerous other breaches of the Ares Conventions.
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Given that the Star League was using nuclear weapons, there were major naval actions, and the Taurians did not escape censure for committing atrocities, I would be most interested in seeing a definitive source for that.
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My daddy told me to not to use no double negatives when making an argument.
Can you cite a source on whether they WERE censured for war atrocities? Just curious as to whether there is a source that does not conflict with your double negative.
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[copper]
Ahem.
Let's keep the posts to the topic and keep the personal sniping out of it.
Last warning for anyone on this matter in this thread.
Best regards,
Charlie Tango
Moderator
/ [copper]
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Given that the Star League was using nuclear weapons, there were major naval actions, and the Taurians did not escape censure for committing atrocities, I would be most interested in seeing a definitive source for that.
Sorry, I can't provide a source, seeing as I take the lack of mention of nuclear weapons during the Reunification War as indication that there were no nuclear weapons used.
But, if you have a source that states differently, by all means, correct me.
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Can you cite a source on whether they WERE censured for war atrocities? Just curious as to whether there is a source that does not conflict with your double negative.
...most people saw the bombardment of Robsart as revenge for Taurian actions in combat- starting with the decimation of the Davion naval contingent over Tentativa in 2577, and including several atrocities committed by Taurian fighting forces... The most infamous atrocity committed by Periphery forces remains the tainting of the water supply on Brussart by Taurian guerillas before they abandoned its major cities... the Taurians also occasionally staged "human wave" attacks, in which irregular bands of men, women, and sometimes even children advanced en mass...
Sorry, I can't provide a source, seeing as I take the lack of mention of nuclear weapons during the Reunification War as indication that there were no nuclear weapons used.
They were an accepted and common weapon and tactic at the time. Them not employing nuclear weapons would be so far out of the norm (and Taurian character) that a lack of nuclear weapons being used should certainly rate a mention.
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RAE,
You hit it on the head actually. Overzelous, maybe, Reckless no.
Taurian society appears to be based on Utilitarian and Valorous behavior. I will tentatively point in the direction of John Stuart Mill in an effort to help those that do not understand Taurian society. Only in understanding the utilitarian way, can you understand the aspect of individual loss for the betterment of the whole. And, if that loss is deemed valorous in the eyes of the state, a Taurian will do it. This is where you get the overzelous (atleast as viewed by others). But, utilitarianism does not promote waste, therefore recklessness creates waste and it is frowned upon in a utilitarian society.
I like examples so here they come.
Hadji Doru was in a position to take control of the TC and many wonder why he did not. Because he is a utilitarian. Although he had the power, he could not be responsible for creating a civil war that would have ensued if he did take power. The loss to the TC would have been greater than the loss to the TC by supporting Jeffery Calderon in a peaceful change of power. The second equation is the gain by the TC if Hadji Doru took over power in comparison to the gain to the TC if Jeffery Calderon took power. Had Jeffery Calderon not been apart of the equation, the TC would likely be ruled by the Doru family now. So, as disappointed as I was in the leaving of Hadji Doru, I do understand why he left. Fortunately, the DA timelime links a Doru to the TC leadership, so we should have good things to look forward to. But remember, as a utilitarian, the gain of a Doru as a leader needs to outweight the cost of gaining that leadership in order for the leadership change to happen.
The utilitarian principle as it applies to the Taurian soldier. In giving my life, is the cost of my life worth the gains or reduction of suffering of the Taurian people. That is the decision made by a Taurian soldier. In destroying what we have built, we are removing resources that our enemies can use to do us, the Taurian people harm. Even in death, can I decrease the pain of the Taurian people. The cost of a fireship weight against the destruction of a Battleship and the cooralation of the damage that the battleship will likely do in comparison to the damage the fireship will likely do. The TC has always been a society based on utilitarianism.
Look up Mill, and if you think you got him figured out, look up Bentham. lol.
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I'm just counting the posts until the first Offical Warning.
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I find the Brussart incident a bit on the ammusing side actually. I can just picture the Taurian ghosts now with their guns pointed at the SLDF soldiers and forcing them to drink the water. The aspect that the attack was against military personnel and the civilains were removed does not put it high on my list as an atrocity.
The bombardment against Robsart does not indicate the use of nuclear weapons, but it does grant acceptance as an atrocity because the bombardment was against a civilian population alla Botony Bay, Edo and Kentarus.
The human wave attacks were typically, ie other than occasionally, performed by the Taurian population. A population that was trained while serviving their mandatory service to the TDF in exchange for a free advanced education. A population that came to the defense of their nation. A population that would less likely be identified as a civilian force and more as a partisan or militia force, ie Noble troops.
The occational use of women and children as human barriers in itself is not an atrocity. The atrocity is the fact that any military personnel would advance through the civilian unarmed barrier rather than retreat through a unblocked path and pursue another avenue is the atrocity.
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I'm just counting the posts until the first Offical Warning.
You can stop counting, it was a couple posts above yours, lol
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Taurianspy's way of saying it does conform with the idea that Taurian nobility is rarely rich, most often having gained their rank through actions, and not gaining vast tracts of lands and such with it. In short, Taurian nobility are those who have proven themselves to their countrymen, not simply those who are rich and can buy whatever they want.
As for comparisons between the War of Terran Aggression and Word of Blake Jihad...The Taurians fought well and bloody in the first. They fought a scorched earth campaign where they made certain that the Terrans got as little support from captured worlds as possible. The citizens took up arms as well, defending their homes, and then MINING those homes when forced to retreat. I don't know much about the Jihad, but according to what others say, the Taurians attacked worlds and nuked or poisoned inhabited cities full of civilians, or otherwise slaughtered noncombatants. IF this is the accurate description of what happened, there is no comparison between the two wars when it comes to Taurian conduct.
BTW, I'm still waiting for a citation that the Taurians were censured for war atrocities after the War of Terran Aggression.
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It has been provided.
I find the Brussart incident a bit on the ammusing side actually. I can just picture the Taurian ghosts now with their guns pointed at the SLDF soldiers and forcing them to drink the water. The aspect that the attack was against military personnel and the civilains were removed does not put it high on my list as an atrocity.
Actually, the Tarian forces tainted the water as they abandoned Brussart. The guerilla forces abandoned the defence of the cities, the cities were not abandoned in the sense you are applying. It was indiscriminate, but the SLDF objected to it because it was their personnel dying.
The occational use of women and children as human barriers in itself is not an atrocity. The atrocity is the fact that any military personnel would advance through the civilian unarmed barrier rather than retreat through a unblocked path and pursue another avenue is the atrocity.
The section I excerpted goes on to say that the mobs were armed, carrying both firearms and satchel charges. The basic idea, as expanded upon later on that page, was to exact such a psychological toll on SLDF (and League-allied forces) that they would give up on the Reunification War. In essence, they were trying to damage the morale of the attacking forces by deliberately confronting them with what would otherwise be non-combatants and forcing them to fire.
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Point of order, Brussart came after the bombarding of Robsart.
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Can't see a date listed for Brussart in H: MPS, but it does note that the reprisal attack against Robsart (2581) occurs some four years after the first Taurian war crimes (2577).
It is also probably worth saying that the target of a proscribed attack is irrelevant. It is the weapon itself, not the manner in which it is used, that defines such things.
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They were an accepted and common weapon and tactic at the time. Them not employing nuclear weapons would be so far out of the norm (and Taurian character) that a lack of nuclear weapons being used should certainly rate a mention.
That's not a source, that's conjecture.
Considering that seemingly every other atrocity during the Reunification war gets trotted around in detail in the several Periphery books (or in this thread, even), the nonmention of nuclear weapons supports my conjecture more than yours, imo.
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Can't see a date listed for Brussart in H: MPS, but it does note that the reprisal attack against Robsart (2581) occurs some four years after the first Taurian war crimes (2577).
It is also probably worth saying that the target of a proscribed attack is irrelevant. It is the weapon itself, not the manner in which it is used, that defines such things.
Earlier sources (periphery 1 and Star League sourcebook) say Brussart came later, in fact in retaliation for Robsart. Also, the Ares Conventions were suspended at the start of the fighting, before any Taurians had a chance to commit war crimes. The Star League set the rules by declaring no rules, and the Taurians complied.
The Taurians weren't above fighting dirty, however. The Star League's case, on the other hand, is painfully flimsy. The League started the war (even the famous Case Amber was triggered by a Davion first strike). The League threw out the rulebook, then the league got all huffy when the Taurians took them at their word. ;D
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That's not a source, that's conjecture.
No, that is what was common for the time. Nuclear weapons were used in space, and in other actions if they were required. The Clans are noted for turning their back on the use of such tactics, one of their very few deviations from the worship of the Star League.
Considering that seemingly every other atrocity during the Reunification war gets trotted around in detail in the several Periphery books (or in this thread, even), the nonmention of nuclear weapons supports my conjecture more than yours, imo.
For war crimes, perhaps. From the information in H: MPS, there are a number of undocumented incidents and so no concrete information one way or the other. In a general sense (space combat, etc) the use of nuclear weapons by both sides is a given. I took this
The use of nukes in the Reunification War never happened.
to mean you were arguing they had never been used at any point, rather than for attacks on non-combatants or what-have-you. So probably just talking past each other there :P
Earlier sources (periphery 1 and Star League sourcebook) say Brussart came later, in fact in retaliation for Robsart.
Fair enough. I have the Star League .pdf, but I hat, hate, hate >:( reading those things. I have a Thing about reading what was intended to be a book by scrolling, and my laptop likes Adobe Acrobat about as much as I do...
Also, the Ares Conventions were suspended at the start of the fighting, before any Taurians had a chance to commit war crimes. The Star League set the rules by declaring no rules, and the Taurians complied.
Even so, it was the Taurians rather than the League making more frequent use of such tactics.
The League started the war (even the famous Case Amber was triggered by a Davion first strike).
Eh... accidentally (or "accidentally-on-purpose") the Taurians breached the Malagrotta agreement prior to that. Whilst I can understand wanting to be left alone and accept that the Star League should have just let the Periphery do its own thing, if you're going to play "I'm not touching you" there may well be consequences... especially if you anger a larger, more powerful nation with an even more dangerous best friend. Not too bright all around, there.
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At Malagrotta the Taurians attempted to withdraw peacefully and were fired upon. They offered restitution and were rebuffed. Had it been a regular border thing, it would have passed without incident, probably faster than the numerous cross border raids that occur all the time.
Instead, the Star League decided it (and the snowball incident in the Outworlds) was a suitable pretext to invade the periphery, and suspend the Ares Convention. And not just the involved periphery states, but the Magistracy of Canopus as well, which had no triggering event.
If a bunch of ships just popping into a star system, getting jumped, and trying to withdraw is grounds for all that... well, that's an awful low threshold for total war.
As for the Taurian actions, the SLDF made the rules. Or rather the lack thereof. The Taurian Concordat's only other option was surrender, which just ain't Taurian.
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The Taurian WarShips claimed to be "lost." One vessel accidentally Jumping into a highly contentious demilitarised zone is on the extreme edge of plausibility and would have provoked a major diplomatic incident. Three or more vessels (two Wagon Wheels and one other WarShip at least) arriving together, not so much. They also hung around long enough to be detected and for a Davion fleet to mobilise.
With action against the Outworlds Alliance already in full swing, it is very difficult to see the arrival of Taurian vessels at Malagrotta as anything other than deliberate provocation. I suspect they were hoping to simply annex Malagrotta rather than touch off a major border dispute, but the intent is still there.
In BT, when you Jump you have to input your coordinates and make certain calculations. At some point one of the three plus Captains or Navigators should have said "Uh, guys... this is a DMZ, are we really sure we want to violate the treaties in place by going there?". Mis-Jumps either result in going nowhere or arriving late, not popping up somewhere you didn't intend to be, after all.
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Regardless, declaring war, declaring total war, and just for kicks also declaring war on the neighboring completely uninvolved state?
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The Magistracy of Canopus? Yeah. The Outworlds Alliance copped it over some pretty poor intelligence work, the Magistracy of Canopus were minding their own business, and the Rim Worlds (or at least, the leadership of the Rim Worlds) were in favour of becoming a part of the Star League.
However, the Concordat had been building up militarily and were beginning to act aggressively towards the Suns.
Ultimately what it comes down to is Cameron's vision of a united humanity (albeit united his way and under his banner). Not the best of justifications, I agree, but it is what it is.
Despite the declaration of "total war", the Star League invaders conducted a remarkably clean operation. They were subjected to a number of provocations from the Taurian defenders (including Taurian militants killing Taurian civilians, as on Brussart) and aside from Robsart declined to retaliate.
In general, though, greater and more poetic minds than I have put it like this, and I completely agree:
"War is the greatest plague that can afflict humanity, it destroys religion, it destroys states, it destroys families. Any scourge is preferable to it."
But then, this is BattleTech, so...
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Actually, it is very easy to explain a "misjump" into Malagrotta. I once actually wrote a story (never published) that has been nulled out by the change in ships involved in recent fiction. But the basic premise still works. ;)
Imagine a squadron of ships getting ready to jump, sharing navigation data as they calculate their jump. Somewhere along the way, one numeral gets flipped (was it an accident or did somebody plan it?), the error propagates into the other calculations, all ship computers agree on the final destination, and the jump is initiated.
They arrive, not where they meant to be, their stellar navigation database now corrupted, and start asking where they are. The Davion planet, fearing invasion, doesn't answer and instead calls in naval support. Boom boom happens.
As for the Star League running a "clean war." Hah. The Davion troops in the Outworlds and the Marik forces in the Magistracy were pretty clean. I don't know much about the Drac forces. The Star League forces that hit the Outworlds were so sadistic in wiping out either 10% or 90% (I can't remember off the top of my head) of the population of entire planetary systems that they became known as Forlough's Baby Killers. And when the Davions got stopped cold by the Taurians, Forlough was sent to fight THEM and we got to see what happened on the Taurian front.
BTW - still waiting for a citation that the Star League (or anybody) censured the Taurian Concordat for war crimes. I have seen examples of what ComStar of 3025 considers war crimes, but I have seen nothing so far that suggests the Star League Council (or anybody else) voted through a Bill of Censure against the Taurian Concordat for war crimes. Please show that citation if you have it.
Also, please provide any source for Taurians killing other Taurians during the Star League Invasion.
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In a general sense (space combat, etc) the use of nuclear weapons by both sides is a given. I took this to mean you were arguing they had never been used at any point, rather than for attacks on non-combatants or what-have-you. So probably just talking past each other there :P
Yes, that seems to be the case. My original response was denying that the Taurians used nukes Jihad-era style during the Reunification War, especially since the post I responded to seemed to take pride in it.
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yeah, Forlough is very much kitten eating evil-- his tactics remind one of either the Japanese in China in the 1930's or the German's on the Eastern Front. The fact that he wasn't brought back, very quickly, indicates that either the SL didn't care-- or was utterly stupid (or didn't know).
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Didn't the Malagrotta Incident got cleared up already? The Taurians themselves secretly admitted they wanted to test Davion resolve, so they deliberately "mis-jumped" Warships into a DMZ. This is all from the Taurian section of FM:P.
I'm curious, how much forces do they have still in their disposal? I count less than 6 regiments from M&M, but with all these sudden explosion of newTech toys being used by the Taurians, i wonder how can the Taurians still be reduced to such a small size by 3130.
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Stormfury,
I don't suppose that your quote went something like this;
"...When First Lord Cameron renounced the tenets of the Ares Convention in 2579, his enemies followed suit. The most common horror was the massacre of civilians on many Periphery worlds and the wholesale destruction of their farmland and their industries..." Star League Sourcebook, Horrors of War, pg.49
The following paragraph talks about periphery tactics, in the context of 'periphery troops'.
Here comes your armed women and children;
"...On Maia, women and children lined the thoroughfares leading to the planet's capital, blocking the advance of the 28th Diomede Regulars while a savage artillery barrage rained down on the confused attackers." The Periphery Sourcebook, Debacle, pg.30
And here is SLDF Retribution;
"...Despite Franklin's victory, the hundreds of casualties prompted the Admiral to commit a rash act of retribution. Her orbital bombardment of Robsart's capital killed over 30 thousand civilians..." The Periphery Sourcebook, Debacle, pg.30
The following paragraph;
"In July 2581, the Fourth Corps, advancing on Brussart, learned how hard the Taurians had taken the destruction on Robsart. Though the 16th and 19th Tamara Regulars were expecting a costly encounter on the plains of Abraham, they found the area empty as they reached the cities Malachi and Remington. The Taurians [not Taurian military] had seemingly abandoned the cities, presumably to hide in the hills. Within a week after their unopposed occupation of the cities, over three-fourths of the invasion force died from massive doses of slow acting poison that had been introduced into their supplies..." The Periphery Sourcebook, Debacle, pg.30
I think that pretty much clears up the perception deficit on Taurian war atrocities during the Reunification War. I hope you can learn from this. One with such great convictions should have those convictions based on facts, and not false hopes. Least thy strength be squandered on untenable position.
Fret not my student, for I am only human just as you. As you learn and grow, I become senile and forgetful. You will one day surpass me, just not today.
I can only wish that when that day comes, I have the graces to admit defeat and move on. Now, that is a lesson we all can learn from.
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"...When First Lord Cameron renounced the tenets of the Ares Convention in 2579, his enemies followed suit. The most common horror was the massacre of civilians on many Periphery worlds and the wholesale destruction of their farmland and their industries..." Star League Sourcebook, Horrors of War, pg.49
So, that will be two years after, and presumably in response to, the use of such tactics by the TDF (2577, p. 19 H: MPS), then?
"...On Maia, women and children lined the thoroughfares leading to the planet's capital, blocking the advance of the 28th Diomede Regulars while a savage artillery barrage rained down on the confused attackers." The Periphery Sourcebook, Debacle, pg.30
One example of an unrelated action does not refute what H: MPS has to say on the matter.
"In July 2581, the Fourth Corps, advancing on Brussart, learned how hard the Taurians had taken the destruction on Robsart. Though the 16th and 19th Tamara Regulars were expecting a costly encounter on the plains of Abraham, they found the area empty as they reached the cities Malachi and Remington. The Taurians [not Taurian military] had seemingly abandoned the cities, presumably to hide in the hills. Within a week after their unopposed occupation of the cities, over three-fourths of the invasion force died from massive doses of slow acting poison that had been introduced into their supplies..." The Periphery Sourcebook, Debacle, pg.30
Two cities in one region.
I think that pretty much clears up the perception deficit on Taurian war atrocities during the Reunification War. I hope you can learn from this. One with such great convictions should have those convictions based on facts, and not false hopes. Least thy strength be squandered on untenable position.
One quote that demonstrates the SLDF put up with the Taurians committing war crimes for two years before deciding enough was enough, another that was completely unrelated to the point you're attempting to make, and a third that doesn't actually say what you think it does?
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MPS Handbook quotes to settle many statements.
"...“the Malagrotta Crisisâ€â€”a misguided Federated Suns assault on Taurian naval vessels that had strayed into the Malagrotta system and panicked a Davion mining outpost on a titanium-rich local moon..." pg.17
"The Concordat suffered fewer atrocities [than the Outworld Alliance], but one infamous incident stands out as among the most senseless civilian massacres of the Reunification War. After winning a vicious naval battle for control of the Robsart system in 2581, Admiral Janissa Franklin of the SLDF ordered the orbital bombardment of Robsart’s capital city. Thirty thousand civilians died in the conflagration, which was widely viewed as payback for stiff Taurian resistance. Certainly, this assault had no military justification; Admiral Franklin had just broken the back of the Taurian Navy. Across the Periphery, most people saw the bombardment of Robsart as revenge for Taurian actions in combat—starting with the decimation of the Davion naval contingent over Tentativa in 2577, and including several atrocities inflicted by Taurian fighting forces throughout the bitter Concordat campaign." pg 19.
The complexity of the last sentence can be confusing, but the reference of 2577 is linked to Tentativa [Case Amber]. By referring to my previous link, those "several atrocities inflicted by Taurian fighting forces" are post Robsart bombardment and they sorta loose the magnitude the MPS writer portrays with sweeping generalization. Shall we see the difference;
"The most infamous atrocity committed by Periphery forces remains the tainting of the water supply on Brussart by Taurian guerrillas
before they abandoned its major cities. This act inflicted a slow and agonizing death on the planet’s SLDF conquerors. The Taurians also occasionally staged “human wave†attacks, in which irregular bands of men, women and sometimes even children advanced en masse on
SLDF ’Mechs and motorized units with satchel charges and wild rebel yells. The perpetrators of these suicidal assaults died in droves, yet they kept on coming." pg.19
I really don't need to go any further.
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Didn't the Malagrotta Incident got cleared up already? The Taurians themselves secretly admitted they wanted to test Davion resolve, so they deliberately "mis-jumped" Warships into a DMZ. This is all from the Taurian section of FM:P.
I'm curious, how much forces do they have still in their disposal? I count less than 6 regiments from M&M, but with all these sudden explosion of newTech toys being used by the Taurians, i wonder how can the Taurians still be reduced to such a small size by 3130.
I admit on the FM:U, I do not have it available at this time, its getting late and I'm heading to bed. I will verify my response tomorrow. But, as I remember it, although the TC was in the area of Malagrotta staging probing response maneuvers, the intent was not to cross the border, only to provoke a response to their presence in that area. By the response, you can gather intelligence of what is in the area of defense. It is the same tactic in reverse that the Taurians used in Case Amber that gave the perception that limited forces were in the area. It is a naval maneuver most naval personnel are accustom to performing. The maneuver is usually followed by leaving the area once the intelligence is gathered. The intent is typically not intended to cross the borders and create an international incident.
The TC is a reduced size due to losses coming up in the near future to Davion attacks, and the territorial loss to the Davions in some form cause the TC to continue splintering. Beyond popular believe, the TC was founded on voluntary inclusion, and if planetary bodies that maintain their own sovereignty wish to leave, TC basic freedoms allow them to leave.
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"...“the Malagrotta Crisisâ€â€”a misguided Federated Suns assault on Taurian naval vessels that had strayed into the Malagrotta system and panicked a Davion mining outpost on a titanium-rich local moon..." pg.17
That is the Periphery/Taurian IC interpretation of events. Needless to say, Handbook: House Davion has a very different take on the event. In any case, there is no way for the vessels to have truly wound up there by accident; you can only plot a Jump to a position you have co-ordinates to. They knew they were making a Jump to Malagrotta.
The complexity of the last sentence can be confusing, but the reference of 2577 is linked to Tentativa [Case Amber]. By referring to my previous link, those "several atrocities inflicted by Taurian fighting forces" are post Robsart bombardment and they sorta loose the magnitude the MPS writer portrays with sweeping generalization. Shall we see the difference;
There is no complexity involved. The Taurian attacks began in 2577; it was not one incident but many that caused the reprisal at Robsart.
I admit on the FM:U, I do not have it available at this time, its getting late and I'm heading to bed. I will verify my response tomorrow.
There is nothing in FM: P or FM: U that says different; the Taurian story is that they were there by accident. However, the Malagrotta incident occurred after the Taurians attacked Davion naval forces while they fought the Capellan Confederation (FM: P, p. 47). The Suns actually thought they were fighting pirates that continued to attack them, and discontinued their operations to concentrate on the Confederation.
But, as I remember it, although the TC was in the area of Malagrotta staging probing response maneuvers, the intent was not to cross the border, only to provoke a response to their presence in that area. By the response, you can gather intelligence of what is in the area of defense.
If you are going to deliberately provoke your enemy into seeing what they will do about it, maybe you had better be prepared for them to, you know, do something about it?
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CHeck FM:P again. I believe it is one of the Blakist remarks or by the Taurians themselves that documents were found buried by the TDF stating they wanted to test Davion resolve by deliberately "mis-jumping" into Malagrotta.
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Yeah, but the official story is still that it was accidental, and they still disavow any responsibility. I find the Taurian take on it to be fig-leaf justification after the fact, but even Brenda Calderon's records are phrased ambiguously. Ultimately, they're going to keep pointing the finger at the Davions no matter what.
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Which is a sad thing. I dont wish to start any flame wars here, just stating the facts on who actually provoked who.
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I agree. With both sentiments.
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Hey Taurians, hows the Dark Age going? Any news on the relations and governments of the Calderon Protectorate and Concordat proper?
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I can only assume less than cordial as the Concordat is still divided.
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There's a whole chunk of worlds the Taurians held that are now out in the dark and another group that wound up in Davion hands even as the Protectorate has expanded. The TC is apparently going through hard times.
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Maybe this sounds crazy, but the Taurians have quickly become my favourite Periphery faction.
Why?
They aren't Mary Sues. Stuff actually happens to them! And sometimes (especially recently) its bad. Really interesting faction. Hopefully they get a rebirth of unity and power.
A lot of fans of different factions seem to have a favourite unit in a faction. I'm new to the Taurians, so I'm not overly familiar with their armed forces.
So, Taurian fans, what is your favourite TDF unit?
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So, Taurian fans, what is your favourite TDF unit?
I've always liked the Hyades Light Infantry, because I like mobile units and also find the name amusing. Bur since they got wiped out, right now my fav is the Red Chasseurs.
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Maybe this sounds crazy, but the Taurians have quickly become my favourite Periphery faction.
Why?
They aren't Mary Sues. Stuff actually happens to them! And sometimes (especially recently) its bad. Really interesting faction. Hopefully they get a rebirth of unity and power.
A lot of fans of different factions seem to have a favourite unit in a faction. I'm new to the Taurians, so I'm not overly familiar with their armed forces.
So, Taurian fans, what is your favourite TDF unit?
I like the Taurian Concordant...what they really need is a Secretary of State to smooth over relations with the Calderon Protectorate and any non-aligned worlds...Kinda like a Dr. Henry Killinger and his Magic Murder Bag (http://venturefans.org/vbwiki/Dr._Henry_Killinger) ;D
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Somehow I don't think that The Calderon Protectorate and the rest of the Taurian state are just going to make up and go back to the business of being paranoid.
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Yeah...the military junta sounds pretty hardcore to me. Everybody in their ruling Five is either fanatical like a wobbie or in it for greed like the civvy Commager.
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My favorite is generally either the Taurian Guard, the Taurian Lancers, or the New Colony Lancers (the later is the paint scheme I paint my Taurian 'Mechs in).
:)
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I have always liked the "House" Merc units like the Bannockburn's Bandits, Gordon's Armored Calvary and, more recently, Prey's Divisionals.
The long term Merc units in the TC seem to become more TC than some of the other "real" house units, at least if you read some of the fluff.
As far as House units I always like the Hyades Light Infantry and hope they will get reformed like it implies in the write up of the Taurian Guard post 3066.
Wookie
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(Shamefully bumps thread so Taurian fans have place to talk to each other if they so choose)
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I'm certain the Taurian people, the chosen race of the Periphery ( :D) have a bright future ahead of them.
Look at the Capellan Confederation. The writers eviscerated and humiliated it, and now its arguably one of the strongest Inner Sphere powers! All the Concordat needs is a new, charismatic leader (and patron author).
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What you need is a Calderon leading the Concordat.
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I'm certain the Taurian people, the chosen race of the Periphery ( :D) have a bright future ahead of them.
Look at the Capellan Confederation. The writers eviscerated and humiliated it, and now its arguably one of the strongest Inner Sphere powers! All the Concordat needs is a new, charismatic leader (and patron author).
More important part bolded, sadly.
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I vote for Dr Henry Killinger, and his Magic Murder bag (http://venturefans.org/vbwiki/Dr._Henry_Killinger), he'd be awesome as the Vp or secretary of state...
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Sometimes I wonder if the concordant was written different in the novel I would like them a lot better.
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As far as I know, there has never been a novel that featured anything from the TC. I could be wrong though.
*sighs*
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Wasn't expecting this kind of a response when I decided to bump this thread. :)
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Personally my favorate TDF unit is the Taurian Lancers, hopefully the Concordat will come back together during the dark age timeline like the Free Worlds seems to be.
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Personally my favorate TDF unit is the Taurian Lancers, hopefully the Concordat will come back together during the dark age timeline like the Free Worlds seems to be.
With a little luck, lamost anything is posible, but taking in count that the authors made clear that most of the attention is focused in the IS powers, i am happy to see a recovering post-junta TC in the DA.
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Anyone know of any daughters/sisters/cousins of the TC's rulers in 3075 that could be married off for diplomatic purposes? Especially in an AU where the nation does not split.
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Cousins, possibly, but not daughters or sisters. The succession problem is why Grover Shraplen was in charge. However, keep in mind that you don't need to just marry off female relatives for diplomatic purposes especially if they're not far up in the line of succession.
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Also don't forget that supposedly there still WERE some "in the line of" relatives that didn't want the job.
Which considering that 2+ members of the direct family ran off instead of taking the position suggests that Grover is something of an abberation in the TC anyway - someone that WANTS the job...
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After some thought I realized that TC has a history of the family not wanting the job - and that in almost every case but one (IIRC) when we get a sort of feeling for why they took the Protectorship it was for either family or duty or both....
Yeah - the Protectorship of the TC: either it is so nasty a job that no one sane and competent would WANT it, or the TC had a distinction finally: they consistently got the right people for the job (someone that didn't want the power).
NEAT [rockon]
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I remember that there is a bastard-Calderon in the Green Mountain Boys merc unit. (more the son of a bastard son).
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Just looking for a name or two and some backstory for guidance in some RP.
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I remember that there is a bastard-Calderon in the Green Mountain Boys merc unit. (more the son of a bastard son).
Maybe.
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While speculation on a history of Calderon's not assuming thier hireditary position as Protector may have merit looking in from the outside, one must understand the social applications as they pertain to Taurian citizens. Individual freedoms are highly valued in Taurian society, and it would be an incomplete assessment if one would make a judgement without considering this social aspect.
Lets take a look at Thomas Calderon's children alone. Edward Calderon, the first in line was groomed from birth to take the reins. At the time of his death, he was a trusted advisor and ruler of several planets in the TC. He died in a dropship accident in March of 34. Next in line was Janice Calderon, and at the age of 14, assumed the role of hier protector. In 3038, while touring the TC, she contracted the Brisbane virus. As above, the next in line was Ian, and he joined the Green Mountain Boys in 42. His leaving appears to be a love interest (being it as a mechwarrior or a women) and not one of fleeing the responsibility of Protector. That leaves Felix, the 4th in line and a highly unlikely situation. Again, the love interest apears to win out again in the Calderon line, and speculation is that Felix fled the TC. The fact remains that Felix's jumpship disappeared in 46 while on a star mapping mission. Finally, maybe the greatest hope of all of Thomas's children, Jeffery, assuming the Protectorship in 55, and was killed in 3060. All five of Thomas's children have assumed the position of hier protector, while only Jeffery has assumed the position of Protector for an extended period. If avoidance of the position constitutes being dead, then I agree with that speculation, but it is obviously a position that lacks merit.
On a side note, for such a small and uninfluencial faction that the TC is widely percieved as, I find it amazing that in the span of just over 25 years, they have lost 6 prominent leaders that did or would have influenced the TC political scene. Throw in the removal of Hadji Doru and Janice's major sickness and the TC has lost 8 leaders in that time. Prior to the Jihad, the Inner Sphere was pressed to account for the loss of that many major political leaders as a whole during that time.
What would motivate that kind of writer action?
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When was the copy and paste functions in the real world invented again?
;D
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Ian Calderon was joined the 'Boys in 42, and was 'devoured' in 48. Captain 'Thomas' Everett, son of Ian's lover Racheal Everett, as written in 66-67, he would have been 19-24 yo. While possible to advance to the rank of Captain at that age, it would be unlikely outside of the clans.
This is all sorts of incorrect.
The Green Mountain Boys started working on Thraxa in 3048, it doesn't say what year he was eaten.
Ian Calderon's former lover is named Rachael Sullivan.
It is never discussed when Rachael and Ian began their affair, where they met, when Thomas Everett was born or what his age.
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Wonderful points Kit. I conceed the argument and will edit the post.
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Prior to the Jihad, the Inner Sphere was pressed to account for the loss of that many major political leaders as a whole during that time.
Hanse Davion
Justin Xiang Allard
Romano Liao
Myndo Waterly
Takashi Kurita
Melissa Steiner
Morgan Hasek-Davion
Demona Azis
Thomas Blane
Aaron Sandoval
Arthur Steiner-Davion
Jackson Davion
Tormano Liao
Nondi Steiner
The list just goes on. If I could be bothered to look it up, I would not be surprised to discover pretty much everyone aside from the Capellan Confederation leaving the Concordat in the dust, particularly in the wake of the FedCom Civil War.
What would motivate that kind of writer action?
The needs of the story?
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What is this I saw on the thread about a Taurian topic and why don't I hear more righteous talk of Davion evils?
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Actually, I'd rather just lump the FS with the rest of the IS for that sort of thing...
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What is this I saw on the thread about a Taurian topic and why don't I hear more righteous talk of Davion evils?
Davion eat babies!!!
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Terrans shoot babies.
All Terrans are equally guilty of the crimes they commit, not JUST the Davions or Liaos or assorted other nationalities. They are ALL built from the same vein as Furlough's Baby Killers and should all be left to rot in their filth.
The nations of the Periphery were colonized to get away from that rot. There is no reason to get involved in it. We should look out, not in. Civilization is out there. Only barbarism lies in the past.
:)
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Hey, I've got a Taurian-related question. In Roar of Honor, I came across an off-hand mention about some conflict on New Vandenburg about where a group of 100+ soldiers at Fort Diffly fended off a much larger force -- a la the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae. Is there any other information about this incident? Does anyone know when this took place? I don't recall seeing anything about this in the Periphery States Handbook.
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So, what kind of hardware did the Concordat have circa the Reunification War? I figure they had a lot of tanks, and I know they had 'Mechs, but I'm not certain what (if any) they manufactured themselves or what they could easily procure from other nations at that time.
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They produced Toros by the battalion, Quasits, had Stoats for scouting and had the largest and most skilled fleet in the Periphery which had at least Wagon Wheel frigates, Winchester and Dart cruisers.
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Awesome. What about armor? And do we know what hardware they might have imported from elsewhere? A whole company of Toros doesn't sound very imaginative...
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Awesome. What about armor? And do we know what hardware they might have imported from elsewhere? A whole company of Toros doesn't sound very imaginative...
Everyone did companies of the same 'Mechs back then. Companies were the lances of yesteryear.
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They should have the Phoenix designs aplenty too.
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They should have the Phoenix designs aplenty too.
Some of them, sure, but not all of them were as widely distributed as we're used to at that point or even in service. The Valkyrie, the BattleMaster, and the Unseen Ostmann designs (Ostscout, Ostol, Ostroc) weren't even introduced, the Wolverine only came into service in 2575 for the SLDF, and the 2770 RFL-3N which defined the 60 ton unit we're all familiar with post-dates the Amaris Coup. The entry of the MAD-1R Marauder is an open question, but it was probably around the same time as the Wolverine.
EDIT: TRO3025 describes the Marauder as an early 2600s design. TRO3039 didn't carry that fluff forward, so whether or not that's still accurate is unknown but there's nothing that contradicts it. We know that the MAD-3R is an early Succession Wars monkey model, so it wasn't around. The MAD-1R's CASE and FF (and the entry date of 2571 for the latter) was what guided my comment above.
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This may be a complete red herring, but the Mercenary Rules Annex from Mercenaries Supplemental II has tables for generating units in each of the major eras, including tables for Mech Generation for the six Inner Sphere Houses for the eras 2443-2470, 2470 - 2500 and 2501 - 2570. The guidance on Periphery and Mercenary forces is that they can use the table for their neighbours/employers, but one column to the left (earlier) than the current era.
In the 2470-2500 era, the Federated Suns gets WSP-1A Wasps, DV-6M Dervishes and MSK-5S and MSK-6S Mackies, while the Cappellan Confederation ggets the WSP-1L Wasp, the GRF-1N Griffin and the same two Mackie variants. By the 2501-2570 era, the Federated Suns also has access to the WHM-6D Warhammer, LCT-1V Locust and TDR-5S Thunderbolt, while the Capellan Confederation has gained the LCT-1V Locust, SHD-2H Shadow Hawk, TDR-5S Thunderbolt and STC-2C Striker.
This isn't exactly a huge data pool to draw from, because each House entry only lists a maximum of six Mechs per era, but it may be useful for giving an idea of what the Concordat may have been able to buy, salvage or acquire by the time of the Reunification War.
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This may be a complete red herring, but the Mercenary Rules Annex from Mercenaries Supplemental II has tables for generating units in each of the major eras
Er, this screenshot below has to be a joke, right? :'(
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I wish, I have a few of those in mint condition.
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I like the part where you can get $1.49 back....what a deal.
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I like the part where you can get $1.49 back....what a deal.
Yeah, I literally laughed out loud when I first saw that.
Hrm. I'm not a huge fan of PDF unless I have no other options, but $18 at the BattleShop is looking like a steal compared to those prices...
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Er, this screenshot below has to be a joke, right? :'(
PDF for $18, if you're willing to go that route. (http://battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1422)
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Yeah, I think I'm probably going to do that.
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Er, this screenshot below has to be a joke, right? :'(
I bought my copies of Mercenaries Supplemental I, II and Update from Ral Partha Europe, who currently have them all on sale at half price, which made them cheaper even than the .pdf versions from DriveThruRPG.
This is the link for Supplementals II: http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/35025-mercenaries-supplemental-ii-p-736.html - it's still on offer at £6.98.
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I did a lot of RP recently in a 3090 campaign with the worlds around the Taurians. I was pulling it out of my butt for the most part, but from what I read about the Taurians, I liked.
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Hello y'all. I've been a Taurian Fan for a while now.
When i started back in the 3025 era I never really got into a Major House, mostly though of myself as a Merc. When the Clans came along I defiantly like Ghost Bear the most but they seemed to be pretty popular, so I looked into some of the other Clans and settled on the Steel Vipers as my Clan of choice.
Then I started to really get into the Periphery Books and finally found my "home" in the Battletech Universe. When Jeffrey Calderon came along I was elated, and then saddened & disheartened by his untimely death (which I will always believe was arranged by Liao). I hated Shraplens return to the Davion Boogieman paranoia so I've firmly sided with Marshal Kithrong, Erin Martens-Calderon and the Calderon Protectorate.
I still consider myself a True Taurain Patriot and not trying to start a discussion about the merits and actions of Calderon Protectorate. Just wondering if there are any other Calderon Protectorate Fans out there?
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I would consider myself a Calderon Protectorate man.
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I really dig the Concordat, but I don't agree with the Protectorate's actions. Now, don't get me wrong: Shraplen should've been impeached (or whatever the TC equivalent is) for trumpeting the non-existent Davion bogeyman and dragging the Concordat into the whole Pleiades mess, but secession was not the right way to go. All that Kithrong accomplished was the weakening of the TDF as a whole when they really can't afford that. It is possible to disagree with the policies of your nation's leader and still be a patriot without having to resort to treasonous action. I think Kithrong should have stayed where he was and used his political cachet to fight the Shraplen administration from within the system rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water.
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...Unless he was worried that Grover had set up Jeffery in the first place to die... :o
Hey, Paranoia in just one direction is just so BORING! ;D
[rockon]
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Now, don't get me wrong: Shraplen should've been impeached (or whatever the TC equivalent is) for trumpeting the non-existent Davion bogeyman and dragging the Concordat into the whole Pleiades mess
Which makes him any different to the majority of the Calderon-family Proctectors how? Really, all he did was act on a state-wide centuries-long paranoid fear and make an effort to reclaim worlds that the Taurains hadl ong seen as being "stolen" from them centuries ago. Declaring war on another nation has never (to my recollection) been grounds for impeachment of a Battletech faction leader, and certainly we never see any indications of discontent within the Taurian govornment or nation over his actions.
As for the Calderon Protecotrate? To me they tend to come off as "holer-then-thou". Sure we succeeded from the Taurian state and divided the TDF in an almost certainly ilegal act but look at us - Calderon head of state! (even if he is an illigitimate love-child wwhi seems to be a sockpuppet for the actual leaders)
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The question is why wasn't Shraplen impeached? He was doing stuff way out of the position of his powers, and he wasn't a Calderon, and there were other Calderons who could do the job better. So how did he get in and how did he STAY in? I figure Kithrong just realized there WAS no way to work within the system since the system was rigged and so chose to do the only thing he figured he could do.
As for me, I like the feel of the Taurian Concordat as it has been since the game started. The current TC is portrayed as more of a bad parody of what the Davions THINK the Taurians should be (perhaps because most of the news reports we have seen so far are from the Davion perspective), while the Protectorate seems to be all that is left of the FEEL of the TC that I have been a fan of for the majority of my life. So based on the books that have come out in the last few years, I am a fan of the Taurian Concordat of history and the Calderon Protectorate of the future.
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Funny thing is, I don't see any change in the TC at all. Right now, to me, they feel like they allways have; delusional paranoids with an inferiority complex and a chip on their shoulders. That's the impression I got from the ealriest material on the TC, and it certainly hasn't changed any in recent years.
Besides which, I got the impression that there were no other close Calderons after Jeffery's death, which was why Shraplen was given the protectorship. The point to the Calderon Protecotrate was that Kitrong discovered an illigitimate Calderon when it appeared that the line was otherwise dead. (And, I might add, his discovery seems awfully convineeent to me...)
And I'd love to see what was "outside" of the realm of Shraplen's powers as defined by the protectorship. Certainly declaring war on another state is a part of what a head of state is expected to do. On the other hand, if anyone's over-stepping their bounds its Kitrong.
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I may not be a primary Taurian fan, heck not even a secondary one. But I really feel with those fans who experience the recent development of the TC as a kick in the crotch. I really hope for the TC and the Periphery in general that Eric or one of his descendants will reunite the Concordat and the Protectorate in the true Taurian spirit.
Are there already any hints on that in the Dark Age? I mean, the Concordat seems to get weaker and smaller than ever due to their obsession about the Davions. Maybe a good chance for the true heir of the Protectorship?
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c3130, the leader of the TC is Protecotr Kaff Doru; the leader of the CP is Sam Calderon. No exact ancesotry is given for either, but they're easy to guess. The two nations also maintain a "low-intensity civil war", which suggests that reconcilation isn't happening any time soon.
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While I'm generally the one who moans and complains when his favorite faction (and TC even isn't that) gets clubbed, what happened to the poor Taurians is simply awful. Even CC got easier in 4th SW ::)
But this wasn't really a surprise. Since Jeffery's death it was obvious that Taurians are going down, seriously.
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on top of that we're not going to be able to see a taurian 'counter attack' for a while since they were mauled badly. right now i'm strongly on the fence about my feeling for the 2 nations. As medron pryde said, if you know the history of the concordat you can't help but like them, but politically i prefer the protectorate, plus they got the new colony lancers, my fav taurian unit (along with the light infantry).
with the reunification war book coming out we'll get to see the taurian's bad arse streak the way it was meant to be seen, and take a break from the current state of affairs }:)
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c3130, the leader of the TC is Protecotr Kaff Doru; the leader of the CP is Sam Calderon. No exact ancesotry is given for either, but they're easy to guess. The two nations also maintain a "low-intensity civil war", which suggests that reconcilation isn't happening any time soon.
On 3100, one is a developing nation, and other is a much reduced-in-size military dictatorship. I would love to see a DA history of a Orange Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution)-like event on the TC getting the Junta out.
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As medron pryde said, if you know the history of the concordat you can't help but like them
Speak for yourself. I know the history of the Concordat, and I'm indifferent to them for the most part.
What little we know of the TC and CP circa 3130 suggests a pair of nations still recovering from the Jihad; economicly depressed and industrially struggling. Given that they've been taking words from the TC, the CP is likely only exacerbating the situation rather then helping recovery.
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Welcome to the fold Countryboy!
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Speak for yourself. I know the history of the Concordat, and I'm indifferent to them for the most part.
i was talking about taurian fans
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Speak for yourself. I know the history of the Concordat, and I'm indifferent to them for the most part.
Really? I was indifferent to the Concordat before I read the history, now that I have I find them awesome.
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I like the faction. I'm wary of the fanbase, based off some prior bad experiences both online and off.
That said, I'm always surprised by the reactions when there's downturns by a faction. I tend to get into a particular storyline for the ups and the downs, so I don't often get turned off by the downs.
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Pretty much this.
I've found that Taurian fans are some of the worst at over-reacting and accusing the writers of personally hating them, being out to ruin their faction, ruin their lives and so on. Wheather it's getting a leader they don't like or not producing the Rommel tank, Taunrian fans tend to take everything that's even vaugely negative as if a writer came to their house, shot their mother and kicked their puppy.
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I gather you don't think it's always entirely true? ;D
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We shouldn't lump together all Taurian fans. There are good and bad examples within the fanbase of every faction.
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We shouldn't lump together all Taurian fans. There are good and bad examples within the fanbase of every faction.
Not going to argue; It's just that a) The Bad seem to massively outnumber the good nd b) they tend towards being rather angry and irrational.
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Not sure I'd go that far. I tend to be wary of all the fanbases, particularly online. I don't think the casual IC style adopted on the forums does it anything beneficial, and I don't really have one faction that I get behind to defend to the bitter end. There's some I enjoy more than others, but I'm largely factionless, I guess.
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Pretty much this.
I've found that Taurian fans are some of the worst at over-reacting and accusing the writers of personally hating them, being out to ruin their faction, ruin their lives and so on. Wheather it's getting a leader they don't like or not producing the Rommel tank, Taunrian fans tend to take everything that's even vaugely negative as if a writer came to their house, shot their mother and kicked their puppy.
have you met the clan fans ;)
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Not going to argue; It's just that a) The Bad seem to massively outnumber the good nd b) they tend towards being rather angry and irrational.
Oh i dunno, have you looked at some of the other factions? Clans, Capellans etc
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Capellan fans have an almost-universal ability to laugh at themselves and take the good with the bad, so that hardly works. Similarily, with the exception of one group, I've never seen fans of a Clan get anywhere near as worked up over their faction taking a hit as the Taurian fans do - no screaming accusations of how the writers were put to personally drive them out of the game and so forth.
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Capellan fans have an almost-universal ability to laugh at themselves and take the good with the bad, so that hardly works. Similarily, with the exception of one group, I've never seen fans of a Clan get anywhere near as worked up over their faction taking a hit as the Taurian fans do - no screaming accusations of how the writers were put to personally drive them out of the game and so forth.
I have to disagree. With some expections, in the old forums the capellans fans were very very annoing about their faction and how TPTB "hate" the CC. And dont make me remember the eternal FS vs CC discussions. In the last time the Capellan fans seemed to change to something like you describe.
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I have to disagree. With some expections, in the old forums the capellans fans were very very annoing about their faction and how TPTB "hate" the CC. And dont make me remember the eternal FS vs CC discussions. In the last time the Capellan fans seemed to change to something like you describe.
We try our best! (http://www.world-of-smilies.com/wos_party/fest39.gif) (http://www.World-of-Smilies.com)
;D
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Getting away from the rampant fanbashing...
One thing that I like about the Periphery is that it IS the Periphery. It's not the Inner Sphere light. It's out beyond the borders of the Inner Sphere and lets the Inner Sphere do whatever it wants without getting involved. To the Periphery, the Inner Sphere is not the center of the universe.
3058 and earlier canon in short had the Periphery realms much more interested in NOT being interested in the Inner Sphere and generally fighting and allying with each other. They were outside the Inner Sphere.
In post-3060 canon the Periphery in general is no longer like that. The Capellans and the Magistracy are allied now. The Outworlds and the Ravens are allied, and the Ravens have a vested interest in conquering whatever Spheroids they can take. The Concordat is in total war (from their perspective) with the Federation. The Marians are fighting the League so hard they lost an entire Legion DEAD.
In fact, of all of the Periphery realms, the only ones I can think of that are NOT involved in fighting with or next to the Inner Sphere is the Calderon Protectorate and Randis. And to a lesser degree the Marians who are still less conquering overlords and more "raiders in force."
But definitely the "Big Three" Periphery realms are now part of the Inner Sphere's or Clanner's Rent-a-Sidekick program. When I DO play in the Inner Sphere, I generally play the Mariks or mercenaries working for one of the Houses or ComStar or some other "Real Faction." I don't play one of the rent-a-sidekicks.
When I'm playing in the Periphery, its because I don't feel like doing something with the Big Houses. I want a DIFFERENT playing environment. Sucking the Periphery realms into the Inner Sphere has reduced the options that a Periphery player has to play outside the Big House scenario. I think that is a significant miscalculation.
And honestly, I think that is why, as a player, I am drawn towards the Calderon Protectorate and Randis, and to a lesser degree the Marians now. And of those, the Protectorate is staying true to the many things that I enjoy the most about the Concordat. So in the diminishing realm of the Periphery, the Protectorate is where I go now if I am playing in the canon timeline.
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I fully concur with you, Medron.
My newly discovered affection for the Periphery in general and the MoC especially grounds on exactly what you said. The Periphery has its very own roots, history, traditions and last but not least its own core values. Being somewhat inferior to the Great Houses and still holding up the principles of freedom, civil rights, education and tolerance possesses a certain charme.
But I'm concerned about the recent developments as well. The big three are in danger to loose those unique traits. The Magistracy is playing with the fire as is the Outworlds Alliance. And the Taurians risk to slip into insignificance. And the new kid on the block, the Marian Hegemony, seems to be somewhat at odds with the more traditional Periphery values. Slavery, conquering for conquests sake and its pirate origins are opposed to freedom, tolerance and the like. I can only hope that our fears won't become true.
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I do hope that the Concordat & Protectorate can come back together again, or failing that, that the Concordat can move back towards its original 'feel'.
On an unrelated topic, just before the crash someone posted some TDF regimental userbars, does anyone know who it was and if they are posting here as i cannot find them.
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I enjoy the Concordat because of the paranoia aspects. Without that (something which has risen and fallen throughout their history), it just feels a little empty. I can't say I enjoy it most when the paranoia was at its peak, but I also can't say I enjoy the total lack of it. Kithrong and his faction just come off a little too lily white and like a Stackpole character for my tastes.
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Also has anyone else here bought the new Battlecorps antholgy? I'm really enjoying the story set in the Taurian Concordat.
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which story, is it available online?
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On the square and it should be on the battlecorps site.
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I enjoy the Concordat because of the paranoia aspects. Without that (something which has risen and fallen throughout their history), it just feels a little empty. I can't say I enjoy it most when the paranoia was at its peak, but I also can't say I enjoy the total lack of it. Kithrong and his faction just come off a little too lily white and like a Stackpole character for my tastes.
Pretty much this. For me, the Paranoia was about the defining personality trait of the Concordat and about the only thing that made it attractive to me. It is, in many ways, their core trait, and aht motivates their actions above all else.
Also seconding you on the CP, though I will add that my own feelings about them have allways been tainted by a little cynicisim. To me, it allways seemed just a bit too convineeeeent that Kithrong, a long time rival of Shraplen's, jsut happened to dig out an illigitimate Calderon right at the point where any future career advancement had been cut off.
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The paranoia trait is only one of many, and not one of the dominant ones. Or rather, more accurately it is dominant in SOME parts of the TC (such crazy daddy Calderon's and Shraplen's group) while not at all dominant in other parts of the TC. Where do you think Jeffrey and his son and the Far Lookers and so many other groups got their MUCH more sane views on the universe? There is a very big difference between TRUSTING the Spheroids (which no smart Taurian does) and ignoring all other threats as long as you are in position to KILL the Spheroids.
The Taurian Concordat since it was started has taken the actions of staying OUT of the Spheroids' business while being prepared to defend their territory IF the Spheroids come. Or as history has demonstrated, WHEN they came. Both crazy daddy Calderon and Shraplen took that healthy watchfulness and turned it into slavering idiocy. And their own militaries were ready to lynch them for it. Oh wait...they DID lynch crazy daddy Calderon for it. Why they didn't do the same to Shraplen I don't know. It's not in the demonstrated Taurian character to not have stopped it.
But the story has been written that way, so if you follow the canon timeline than the only remaining Taurian faction left to us post-3060 is really the Calderon Protectorate. And by the Stone Age its really on a rough parity with the TC, though that is at least partially because the TC has been shedding planets all that time. Heck, even during the Jihad, Hellespont was already basically siding with the Calderon Protectorate, sending them much needed supplies while NOT being part of the TC anymore. I'm certain there are other worlds NOT in the TC that do the same during the Stone Age, and are more waiting for the idiots on Taurus to wisen up so all Taurians can get back together again.
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Very true Medron, i do wonder if there are more Far Lookers colanies out there waiting for the Concordat to come back together behind House Calderon before they make their presence known.
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I liked the Concordat before the fans started arguing that it has the industrial might of the Steiners, the military acumen of the Federated Suns and the fanaticism of the Xin Sheng CapCon, all mixed together with an apparent willingness to do things that Amaris would have balked at.
The faction went really downhill when it went from a bunch of bull-headed frontiersmen clinging to the rump end of the Fed Suns to its only defining characteristics being that they never signed the Ares Conventions and they would nuke you if you even thought about looking at them funny.
I've since moved on to the Rim Collection and the Outworlds Alliance. I may abandon the OA since I'm not a big fan of the current Snow Raven mindset where the solution to every problem/dispute is "I killz it with my orbital bombardment!!11".
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You see...that's the odd thing. I keep on hearing people saying stuff like that about the Taurian fans.
But I don't KNOW any Taurian fans like that. And I certainly don't see anything like that posted on these boards, except by the people talking about how horrible the Taurian fans are. Not by Taurian fans.
There's an interesting thing I've noticed. It seems fashionable here for people to come into any thread about the Taurian Concordat and to say the Taurians suck, the Taurian fans suck, and that you hate the Taurian Condordat and the Taurian fans. And I honestly don't understand why so many people have a vested interest in badmouthing fellow fans of the game. It doesn't make sense to me.
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You see...that's the odd thing. I keep on hearing people saying stuff like that about the Taurian fans.
But I don't KNOW any Taurian fans like that. And I certainly don't see anything like that posted on these boards, except by the people talking about how horrible the Taurian fans are. Not by Taurian fans.
There's an interesting thing I've noticed. It seems fashionable here for people to come into any thread about the Taurian Concordat and to say the Taurians suck, the Taurian fans suck, and that you hate the Taurian Condordat and the Taurian fans. And I honestly don't understand why so many people have a vested interest in badmouthing fellow fans of the game. It doesn't make sense to me.
I guess you missed the huge thread on the last board that started out trying to determine which lostech the TC developed independently and 30+ (IIRC) pages later had become TC fans ranting how they had developed lostech all on their lonesome through a combination of hard work, sheer bad-assery and the mystical power inherent in the blood of Davions.
If you disagreed, then you were reminded that the TC never signed the Ares Conventions and that they could therefore handle the combined might of all of the Clans and the Davions with ease. All of this while simultaneously knocking up every Steiner beer wench and MoC mermaid prostitute in known space.
I call the above fans "rabid bulls". I like the TC, or at least I used to before they became the 24-hour "Kill Davions!" network. I guess I still like the faction, but don't like many of the fans. Get three or four TC fans together and see how long it is before they mention that they didn't sign the Ares Conventions. ;)
Please note that I have the same general problem with many Snow Raven fans and their fetish for orbital bombardment.
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I guess you missed the huge thread on the last board that started out trying to determine which lostech the TC developed independently and 30+ (IIRC) pages later had become TC fans ranting how they had developed lostech all on their lonesome through a combination of hard work, sheer bad-assery and the mystical power inherent in the blood of Davions.
I believe you left out how the high literacy rate suddenly translated into the best and most advanced educational system in the 'sphere.
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Nope, I've never seen that thread. I've been an active member here for a couple years now and have never seen that or anything like that. I've also never seen that or anything like that at any OTHER forum I go to, and non of THOSE forums have drive by thread-shootings like are common here. So if you are being serious about Taurian vampires drinking the blood of the Davions to research all of the Star League technologies, I'm gonna have to say I've never seen anything like that anywhere. *shrugs*
And its certainly not common here on the CBT boards. Now whether that's because they were never like that and you are exaggerating things, or because they grew out of it and you are never letting them live their munchkin days down, or because you chased them away with constant drive by thread-shootings, I don't know. But I do have to wonder why so many posters here feel the compulsion to watch for any collection of people talking about the Taurian Concordat, jump into the thread, and talk about how horrible Taurian fans are, when the fans aren't anything like that at all. They are just fans of the game and a faction they enjoy. So why the constant need to attack Taurian fans at every opportunity?
Now IF I take the Taurian vampires drinking Davion blood to perform technological research idea seriously, let me take a look at things and see how that could come about...
This thread probably would have been before Catalyst's chances to the universe, and very possibly before FanPro's changes, which means that the thread would have been talking about FASA's BattleTech universe which has some very interesting differences from what is now canon.
For example, in FASA's universe, the Great Houses did not mass produce the Star League technologies until the Wolf's Dragoons gave them full access to help during the year of peace. In this universe, the Taurian Concordat had reverse engineered Ferro-Fibrous armor in the early 3040s and began mass producing it, upgrading their vehicles with that new technology, and later with Streak 2s once they began building those in 3054. And they began building XL engines, TAG, ECM, and pulse lasers from around 3055 to 3058 or so, between half a decade and 8 years after they entered mass production in the Inner Sphere. Those are the known advanced technologies they built in the FASA universe, and all but one of them they began producing AFTER the Inner Sphere did. Therefore it makes sense that they most likely purchased aid of some kind in getting those built. That leaves the Ferro-Fibrous armor which in FASA's universe, they built before the Inner Sphere. My assumption of this is that while ComStar was doing everything they could to destroy any of the memory cores they could (I seem to remember reading that they got all of the Grey Death Cores except for the one at New Avalon, and they almost got that one) even ComStar in the 3020s had very little to do with the Periphery. Compared to their pervasiveness in the Inner Sphere, they had little presence beyond the borders, and in fact went to lengths to make certain the Periphery was not linked up with the Inner Sphere. I've always figured the TC teams that reverse engineered the FF armor were just never noticed because it was a small project in a small nation outside the borders of the real universe and ComStar just didn't bloody care enough to find and kill them off.
During FanPro days, they introduced the experimental technologies used during the War of 3039, that were in some ways better than normal stuff, but weren't as good as the true Star League stuff. This stuff was first built in the late 3030s, after the Fourth Succession war ended. This addition to the BattleTech universe makes is possible that the FF armor that the Taurians built in the early 3040s was perhaps the experimental stuff, somehow purchased from the Inner Sphere. Probably from the Lyrans what with the large amount of Lyran tech they build to this day, but that is only a hypothesis. Anyways, FanPro's experimental technologies work well with established canon I think, giving some cool things for the War of 3039 while maintaining the known fact it was the Wolf's Dragoons handing the technology schematics over to the Houses that brought them up to full production of FULLY ONLINE AND OPERATIONAL Star League technologies.
The Catalyst universe has gone further, making it so that all of the Houses were building the standard Star League technologies in the 3030s and 3040s, which runs into difficulties when you remember that the great heroes of the Clan Invasion were fighting with non-upgraded designs. Why? *shrugs* That's just one of the odd things about the Catalyst universe. It also makes it so that as the Houses are given entire new decades of production of the Star League techs, the Taurian introduction years remain unchanged (except for DHS which are pushed into the 3050s in the TC IIRC) so even the FF armor introduction is now well after it being introduced in the Inner Sphere. So in the Catalyst universe, it is entirely possible that the Taurians found some way of purchasing the technology from the Inner Sphere rather than reverse engineering it from the Maultiers they found in the 3020s. And I frankly assume that is the course that is being taken in the Catalyst BattleTech universe.
In the FASA BattleTech universe it is very clear that the Taurians were building FF armor before the Inner Sphere, so if one is arguing from a FASA universe standpoint, I can see the question about what else they reverse engineered. Of course, FF armor is one of the simplest technologies, and it took them 20 years to reverse engineer it. The Streaks weren't done until 3054. And those are really simple too. We're not talking about void sig here. ;) Based on that, I don't see the Taurians building new Star League equipment before the 3050s, short of the FF armor in the early 3040s, even in the FASA universe. If it took them 30 years to reverse engineer the streak system (assuming they didn't finally give in and BUY the secrets of course) I'm not going to see them building gauss rifles and other stuff like that before then. Besides, I kinda LIKE the idea of the FASA universe Taurians upgrading their vehicles with XL engines, FF armor, pulse lasers and streaks. No DHS, no ERLLs, no Gauss, or any of the other stuff. It is an...interesting dichotomy of advanced and old school tech that feels FUN to play with. ;) And since this is a game, fun is the way to go IMHO. :)
Now as noted, the modern Catalyst universe is greatly different from the FASA universe, and many things written in the FASA universe have been retconned heavily, so I really don't know how much of the FASA Taurians have survived. The TC has certainly been changed greatly, and made into something else that no Taurian fan I have ever talked to likes. Every Taurian fan I've talked to likes the old Taurian Concordat and the new Calderon Protectorate. It seems to be the most common trend I've seen. While the players who hated the old Taurian Concordat often really like the new Taurian Concordat.
In the end though, I guess I just don't see why a debate most likely made using the FASA universe as a basis (apparently adding in Davion-blood drinking Taurian vampires) by fans that aren't around anymore assuming that was the debate they had, has any relevance to...well...NOW. And in the last two years I've certainly seen nothing like that, which makes me wonder why the constant drive by thread shootings keep on happening.
As for the high literacy rate and education system, I think we are running into an issue of mixing the BattleTech universe with real life. In real life, it is the countries that have the highest literacy rate that generally have the best scientific communities. Learning how to read and write allows us to unlock our brains and try new things, and that generally results in people who try new stuff out and invent stuff. The inventors are rare, but if you have a large enough population base with a large enough amount of those people taught to read and write, you will FIND the inventors and they will go wild with their ideas. And they will write them down and other people will try them out and it is a cycle that reinforces itself. That is the real world.
And so fans of the TC see a nation with multiple universities and lower level schools on every world, where everybody goes to school, where the literacy rate is pushed above anywhere else in the Human Sphere, and they see a realm where education MUST be a priority. Certainly compared to the Davion Outback where the only schools come in on JumpShips. In the real world, education and literacy are so closely intertwined that it is very hard for people to separate the two, and the argument that one does not mean the other is looked upon with skepticism and disbelief. Oh, there are always the lazy people who learn how to read and do nothing with the gift. But there are also the people who learn to read and write and then take advantage of that gift. I think in some ways we...underestimate it.
All of us who play this game and come to this board can read and write. We are such a small cross section of the world's population, and we just don't...see...the rest usually. We don't see how hellish the regions are where people can't read and write. Reading and writing is...power. Those of us who can do it can...see so much of what other people do, we can read ideas from other places, we can transform our worlds and all those around us. Literacy in the real world separates the caveman from the man sitting behind this computer typing right now.
Is it the same way in the BattleTech universe? I don't know. There are a lot of differences between the real world and BattleTech, hence the term FASAnomics. But those who think that a pervasive educational system that increases the literacy rate of a nation above that of any other nation in the Human Sphere is a very good educational system do so because that is their world view gained by living in the real world.
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Nope, I've never seen that thread. I've been an active member here for a couple years now and have never seen that or anything like that. I've also never seen that or anything like that at any OTHER forum I go to, and non of THOSE forums have drive by thread-shootings like are common here. So if you are being serious about Taurian vampires drinking the blood of the Davions to research all of the Star League technologies, I'm gonna have to say I've never seen anything like that anywhere. *shrugs*
I must (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forumarchive/index.php/topic,68761.32.html) disagree (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,755.50.html).
There are a number of other threads both here and in the Archive I can link to if need be.
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This is only personal opinion here, and not meant as anything more than a suggestion.
Medron, the consistent reinforcement of the FASA vs. CGL universe idea seems to invoke an "us vs. them" mentality. I realize for your own home games, whatever works is the rule. And that's as it should be. But the reality is that there are not two universes. It is one continuous setting (with changes over time, granted). You can certainly choose to feel otherwise. But that doesn't make it fact, simply your own views on the setting. Presenting it as fact to a fan community is what I think can cause some issues. That's one of the issues I ran into with very vehemently defensive TC fans offline, and what largely made me leave the only existing local BT community behind. They went on pre-emptive offense, as soon as anything relating to a change or update in material was mentioned, regularly throwing out the "two universe" line as they attacked the person rather than the point. It's an attitude I've found online as well, and something that really turned me off to the Periphery factions and fanbase.
Again, that's not meant as anything more as a personal example from another viewpoint. Maybe it'll help offer up some understanding of why those perceptions regarding a vocal minority of the fanbase exist. I know you and I discussed the unnecessarily defensive natures (through pre-emptive attacks far too often) found in HMP/SSW topics before, and I'm just offering up a possibility that a similar situation exists here.
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The other issue is that the "FASA Universe" he described and the Concordat's depiction in it never existed.
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And this is the one thing that strikes me the most about the situation. I never see this sort of "Catalyst Universe" stuff coming out of fans of any other faction. I never see this degree of overt defensiveness to the point of denial from fans of any other faction. And I certainly don't see this degree of "us versus them" mentality and hostility to change from fans of other factions.
As Stormfury said, the "FASA Universe" described does not exist. It's the same universe and the same continuity. Catalyst has clarified what was, frankly, the rather confusing and contradictory mess that was a number of issues, and key amongst them was the reintroduction of SL-era weapons technology to the Inner Sphere. There's been no "change to continuity"; Catalyst did not redefine the universe specifically to spite the Taurian fans. The TC is the same nation it's always been with the same levels of development, literacy, technology and national paranoia that they've always possessed.
The main issue I'm seeing here is an element of the fandom's refusal to accept clarification and change on issues when it doesn't suit their perspective on the universe. "They changed it, now it sucks" is a common knee-jerk reaction to such matters. It doesn't matter that the writing quality is the best it's been in the history of the franchise and that the fact-checking, something that at the best of times in the FASA days was a mess, is superlative these days.
The problem I see here is that the current state of the universe doesn't match up with a skewed perspective derived from a 20+ year-old sourcebook that was a complete mess when it was written, one that was contradicted by other sources at the time, let alone ones that have appeared since then. Logic would suggest that maybe that one sourcebook was the issue, rather than everything that has come after it.
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Dread Moores
I'm sorry that you had issues like that. I'm getting the feeling from your experience that the TC fans you've dealt with are part of the "grognard" faction of BattleTech players. The "grognards" are always slow to accept change and quick to continue using the original stuff. I know I fit in that category, for ALL factions and not just the TC by any means. ;) And I also know that "grognards" can be a little...um...vigorous when defending their views. ;) Which can turn off less...grognardy players. hehehe.
I will note though that TC fans are not AT ALL the only fans that have noted the differences between what FASA wrote and what Catalyst has written. In fact, I remember a very long thread in the general forum decrying the change in reintroduction rates of the Star League technologies and how it made the Clan Invasion make less sense. Why would Victor and Kai be running Third Succession War 'Mechs if they had access to SL tech for instance? And the Clans get hurt HARD when facing SL tech rather than the Third Succession War 'Mechs they have always been shown to fight against in previous publications. It's just an historical disconnect that makes people go "huh?" A LOT of people. ;)
Now, that said, I LIKE the introduction of the experimental Star League techs. It gives us some interesting toys to play with. Want to have Gauss Rifles and no Clans? Well, here you are. Just don't roll a 2 on to-hits. At least I think that is the issue with that one. hehehe. Having the full-fledged systems introduced in the 3030s and 3040s across the board? That's awful hard to see making sense compared to what we've played without a few shakers of salt. ;)
Deadborder
You can refuse to admit that FASA's version of BattleTech is significantly different from Catalysts if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the two ARE different. The Brothers Ridzik for instance reformed the Tikonov Free Republic when they defeated Emperor Baranov on Hall. Star League weapons were not mass produced until the Clan Invasion. I can go further if you'd like.
The point of my post above was to show how pointless it is to attack Taurian fans for debates that are said to have occurred many years ago, before Catalyst introduced the changes in the universe that brought Star League tech into circulation before the Clan Invasion. Assuming the discussion was as explained, the fans at a time before Catalyst made the changes could not know that any changes were going to be made so could only use the information then in print as part of their debate. Attacking them now by jumping into threads and talking about how horrible they are while using the modern Catalyst information as a base for how wrong their pre-Catalyst information was is hypocritical. Remember, I basically asked for examples to support a position and the ONLY response I got was an example from the old forums that came from multiple years ago. And then I guess I'd ask if any of those particular posters still post at all on the boards or if they'd left? And if they have, why continue to attack other fans who had nothing to do with single example?
But the other issue is that it is DETRIMENTAL to the BattleTech community as a whole to constantly attack other fans and try to drive them away from the community. The online forums should be a place where players and fans can find other players and fans to talk to. Instead, any thread about the Taurian Concordat as an example is bound to get somebody coming in and attacking anybody who considers themselves a fan. There is a new player in this thread who asked if there were other fans in this thread. What about somebody looking around for other fans makes somebody else think they need to jump into a thread and attack the fans? That's WRONG. If you don't like a faction, don't read their drivel. I'm not a big Clan fan but that doesn't mean I go into the Clan threads and start making fun of anybody stupid enough to like the Clans. I know we got a lot of Clan fans when MechWarrior 2 came out. I accept that. I don't share their fandom of Clans, but I'm willing to live in the same universe with them. I don't feel the need to troll them and attack them because they like a different faction than I do, and so I just don't read their threads.
People come here to have fun. If you make it your mission to make certain that they can never have fun if they come here, they will stop coming here.
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[copper]
All right. I locked the thread a little prematurely. I apologize.
The thread has now been unlocked.
If there are issues about what is and isn't canon correct, please take them to Ask the Writers or other appropriate section.
Let's keep the discussion civil and on point/topic.
Fair enough?
/ [copper]
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Thanks CT :)
So from M&M (where it says the TDF stands at 6 regiments) and with FR:Periphery not far off release now which 6 do with think are left?
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In defence of my most loved factions, and as one of the most-prolific Taurian posters on the previous incarnation of this board before real-life decided to kick me in the butt and moved me away from this wonderful universe, I can agree with both sides of this argument.
I agree that Taurain Fans are penny pinchers and argumentative because they are fanatics in a way to support their faction. However, similar things can be said about the followers of the Blood Spirits, Capellans, Rim Worlds, and various other 'hard-done-by' factions. This has to do in a lot of ways I think to the mindset of the person vs. the faction. Players from more 'established' factions, or those who's nations get more screen time tend not to be more fanatical about what they have and what they can do because they HAVE that information. Also, Taurians were written up as basically being the awesome people who tend to have a more-than-slight issue with sanity. As such, the player base reflects that particular sanity quirk (I sure do ;) )
On the other side, Taurian fans are no worse in my experience than the others in terms of being, pardon the term, dicks on message boards and such. I have seen plenty of people in ALL factions who fit this discription. It isn't a question typically of numbers, but more how loudly they post and how angry they are as people. It is a classic case of people who fanboy bait or troll, and you get them in every group.l
As to the opinions of the Taurians in this storyline, I am one of those who really wish that the Concordat would do better than it is, but I'm glad they are getting/have gotten a lot of screen time in the universe, no matter how much it sucked overall for them. I have hopes that the Writers will be able to bring out even better storylines in the future, using this horrible pounding and destruction to bring it about. Maybe the Taurians will suvive it, maybe they won't. If we go the way of the jaguars or any of the other 'lost factions', I hope that we go down in a blaze of fire that nobody will ever forget!
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The other question I have is that if they have 6 regiments left at that time, did any of the lost regiments join the Calderon Protectorate?
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They likely have more than six 'regiments', but only six regiments of forces spread out among all the units that have survived.
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That IS a possibility. I guess I'd have to look at the relevant passage to see if it makes clear which way to read it.
I do know though that each of the Field Reports out right now usually shows most regiments at 25% to 50% strength. Which would be two to three regiments worth of troops if they are talking about six actual surviving regiments. If they are talking six regiments WORTH of troops, that is a little better.
Of course, the Fed Suns do seem to have a few commands surrounding the Taurian incursion zone at the moment. I'm betting they won't sit still for long once the Wobblies are taken care of...
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But the other issue is that it is DETRIMENTAL to the BattleTech community as a whole to constantly attack other fans and try to drive them away from the community.
No. What is deterimental is your stubborn refusal to accept what the books actually say about the Taurian Concordat, regardless of vintage. Nobody is interested in "constantly attacking" anyone; the issue myself and others have is not with the Taurian Concordat itself or its (potential) fans, but instead with your continued and deliberate propogation of non-canon "facts" about the Concordat. Just as a few examples:
Whilst the non-production of the Rommel/Patton may be a retcon to the old TR: 3025, the old Periphery books, and/or Objective Raids, the fact is that their production of it never made sense and was deemed even by FASA personnel to be an error. Even after the relevant sections of TR: 3039 (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,1351.msg26634.html#msg26634) and Handbook: Major Periphery States (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,1351.msg26644.html#msg26644) refuting that were posted, you claimed (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,1351.msg26674.html#msg26674) to have different and correct version that placed the tank in production there. After other posters (and a moderator) told you their versions matched the quoted ones, and after two (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,2705.msg60403.html#msg60403) seperate (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,1363.msg60972.html#msg60972) official answers on the matter, you contended variously that the Concordat was producing a unit exactly matching the Rommel (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,1351.msg26616.html#msg26616) or was constructing Manticores (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,1351.msg54799.html#msg54799). No evidence for that last claim was ever produced, and was likewise dismissed by the writers.
In the HPG thread (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,1523.0.html) you claimed that the Concordat possessed, maintained, and repaired its own HPG network despite other contemporary sources saying something different. Your "evidence" for that claim was a combination of unrelated quotes from a variety of sources, none of which made, let alone supported, such a contention.
In regards to production of Ferro-Fibrous armour, no source you have ever produced has stated the Concordat was the first to recover that technology, nor that it took place in the early 3040s. Something which Kit has also pointed out to you in the past, which matches the established facts in multiple sources (FM: P p. 169, Mercenaries Supplemental II p. 88, TechManual item entry, ad infinitum, ad nauseum).
Then, you claimed that there was never a thread in which the Concordat's literaracy rates indicated they could have rediscovered Star League technologies solo, even though you participated in it (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,755.msg22877.html#msg22877).
And then, as now, the debate was turned away from the simple facts of the matter and into a personal attack on you and/or the Taurian Concordat and its fans. In fact, that is how virtually all of the threads in which you make such claims end.
So perhaps you would have less trouble with supposed "anti-Taurian trolls" (nice job getting group and personal attacks past the moderators, there) if you either stuck to the established facts of which you, as a demo agent and fact checker for some Periphery products must surely be aware, or took such posts to the Fan Universe or RP boards. This sub-forum is not the place for it.
Of course, the Fed Suns do seem to have a few commands surrounding the Taurian incursion zone at the moment. I'm betting they won't sit still for long once the Wobblies are taken care of...
And here is how that turns out. (http://home.ifi.uio.no/~oysteint/btech/MWDA.html)
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[copper]
All right. I locked the thread a little prematurely. I apologize.
The thread has now been unlocked.
If there are issues about what is and isn't canon correct, please take them to Ask the Writers or other appropriate section.
Let's keep the discussion civil and on point/topic.
Fair enough?
/ [copper]
Thanks for unlocking the thread.
I'll endeavor to do as you ask...wouldn't want to make you make it a demand after all...;)
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On a side note, while the Fed Suns never retakes the Taurian conquests, its a Pyrrhic victory for the Taurians at best....the rest of the house collapses just to hold that "patch" of ground....but the Calderon Protectorate does well.
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"We got the Peladies back! They're all irradiated hellholes now and we drove our nation into ruin to do it, but we got the Peladies back!"
yeah, real win.
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The Taurians do lose a bunch of worlds to the "west" of the Pleiades, including some of their 3025 worlds to the Capellans. And of course Perdition and some of the worlds around it end up being part of the Federation, and a bunch of other worlds just go independent. But yeah, they DO hold onto the Pleiades.
What gets me is the shear NUMBER of worlds gone from the TC, and how they are now part of three different surrounding realms, while the rest just...AREN'T in a realm. It makes me wonder how many left not due to invasion of ground forces but by choice. Oh, looking at the mass of Davion troops camping the Taurian border in the Field Report, the troops DO have a big role. Not saying they don't. I'm just wondering, no matter how crazy it sounds, if some Taurian worlds actually CHOSE to join the CC or FS. I mean, it goes against the grain alright, but with the Shraplen and Goons government on Taurus, maybe a border system would consider even the Spheroids preferable....
Yeah...crazy...I know...but...it is a thought I've been having for a while...
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My biggest question is are the PTBs going to ever be finished bashing the TC and give them a reasonably competent leader? I mean seriously their paranoia of the Feddies is worse than that of the CC. At least the CC have the fairly recent memories of the 4SW and the even more recent memories of Operation Guerrero and Operation Sovereign Justice to fuel theirs. Didn't the last serious invasion of the Taurian Concordat end with Case Amber and the destruction/capture of 3 dozen FS ships for the loss of 3 Taurian?
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The Taurians had reasonably competant leaders in the forms of Hadji Doru, Cham Kithrong, Brenda Calderon, and Erik Martens-Calderon, among others.
However, either the citizenry or soldiery have largely refused to follow them, instead preferring to act in accordance with their long-established national paranioa.
This paranioa is not a retcon, recent or otherwise. It is as much a part of the Taurian national character as being Japanese (regardless of ethnicity) or Chinese (regardless of ethnicity) is for Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation.
The last "serious" invasion from the Taurian Concordat into Suns space caused the Star League to attack it. Frankly, given their actions during the Jihad, they are lucky that the AFFS was in no shape to go on with what Hansen's Roughriders had started.
It is not "bashing" the Concordat. A number of its fans have simply held wildly optimistic views of its capabilities, and recent plot events have served as a reminder of what the actuality is. When a Periphery state attempts to rumble with the big boys- even when said big boy's back is turned (the FedCom Civil War ended mere months before the Jihad began) it is going to be slapped down.
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My biggest question is are the PTBs going to ever be finished bashing the TC and give them a reasonably competent leader? I mean seriously their paranoia of the Feddies is worse than that of the CC. At least the CC have the fairly recent memories of the 4SW and the even more recent memories of Operation Guerrero and Operation Sovereign Justice to fuel theirs. Didn't the last serious invasion of the Taurian Concordat end with Case Amber and the destruction/capture of 3 dozen FS ships for the loss of 3 Taurian?
Actually, it sort of *started* with that, and then continued on for 20 years, with orders given orbitally bombard targets of military or economic value, entire cities wiped off the face of maps and nearly blasting the Taurians back to the stone age. Sure, that was mostly the SLDF, but the Davions were helping. Add to that the Star League and Successor States trying to screw over the recovery efforts to make money (and then later with taxations in the 2700's), AND a martyr of a leader who committed suicide rather than work with the SLDF after she surrendered, and you've got a long standing...dislike.
Admittedly, some of it is a bit extreme ("The Clans are a Davion invention!"), but I can see why the Davions aren't considered for the good neighbor award.
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Actually, it sort of *started* with that, and then continued on for 20 years, with orders given orbitally bombard targets of military or economic value, entire cities wiped off the face of maps and nearly blasting the Taurians back to the stone age. Sure, that was mostly the SLDF, but the Davions were helping. Add to that the Star League and Successor States trying to screw over the recovery efforts to make money (and then later with taxations in the 2700's), AND a martyr of a leader who committed suicide rather than work with the SLDF after she surrendered, and you've got a long standing...dislike.
Mostly directed at the Star League. I believe that after Case Amber the extent of Davion involvement in the Taurian Campaign was "oh you completely secured a Taurian world...only occasionally sniping...*sigh* its sooo much trouble but I guess we can take control of the world."
Admittedly, some of it is a bit extreme ("The Clans are a Davion invention!"), but I can see why the Davions aren't considered for the good neighbor award.
There is a huge difference between sensible caution and outright paranoia. For centuries, the TC has been on the alert for a Davion invasion that was probably never even considered by the FS High Command. I believe that for most of the Succession Wars, the FedSuns considered them only a slightly bigger threat than the pirates that inhabited the Periphery and the pirates conducted more raids and did more damage than the TC.
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Mostly directed at the Star League. I believe that after Case Amber the extent of Davion involvement in the Taurian Campaign was "oh you completely secured a Taurian world...only occasionally sniping...*sigh* its sooo much trouble but I guess we can take control of the world."
Not exactly. On Cyrton for instance, for 30 days Davion WarShips and fighters "selectively struck key infrastructure targets...power plants, communication centers, transportation hubs, water and waste processing plants, military and government offices, as well as any factory producing military weapons." and when Cyrton's people hadn't surrendered, the attacks extended to "emergency power sources, fuel and supply shipments, bridges, and authorized chemical weapon strikes on random cities and towns" to panic the population.
They were also present for some of the worst fighting on New Vandenberg.
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Also, don't forget the Victor '49 exercises that took place in 3049 and had a lot of AFFS troops IIRC on the Capellan/Taurian border performing "exercises" that in no way were meant to be threatening in nature to their neighbors... ::)
In general though, the Taurians have been fluffed as having a supreme distrust and dislike of the Inner Sphere, while being happy to work with fellow Periphery peoples, but have had the ill-luck to have a couple REALLY FRAKING HORRIBLE leaders lately who down right maniac in their hatred of the Davions. There are passages talking about how the normal Taurians were cursing both Thomas and Shraplen for only looking at the Davion Boogieman and ignoring the pirates on their flanks or other similar issues.
And yeah, the Davions LEADING the invasion of the Taurian Concordat got ended real fast, but they supported the Star League troops all through the Invasion, even after Furlough's Baby Killers got transferred to the Taurian front to continue the work they'd started in the Outworlds Alliance. And no, they didn't do anything as bad as what Furlough's Baby Killers did, at least I'd never heard of them doing anything as bad until what Maelwys just noted. Is that in the new book or in older books? Still, even if that is normal for what the Davions did, as horrible as it is, it is a drop in the bucket to the systematic murder of entire planetary populations that Furlough's Baby Killers performed.
I don't know how the new book fluffs it, but I remember one battle where the Taurian fleet bled the Star League fleet white, basically fighting until the very end. Once the Star League won, they too revenge for the heavy losses by bombarding the planet from orbit, destroying its cities, and killing all of the Taurians they could kill. I haven't seen the Davions doing anything THAT systematic, but I doubt to the Taurians it would really matter. The Davions were there, they got all the worlds that the Star League smashed flat, and the Davions were PART of the Star League, so in the end they get at least part of the blame for everything the Star League did.
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The Taurian Concordat has never been described as willing to work with other Periphery states.
It was founded as a paranoid and xenophobic state, and remains so. Their co-opeation with the Magistracy of Canopus was recent, unpopular and short-lived, and the only reason they dealt with the Outworlds Alliance at all was to obtain fighters and experienced trainers for the TDF air wings.
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The Taurian Concordat has never been described as willing to work with other Periphery states.
It was founded as a paranoid and xenophobic state, and remains so. Their co-opeation with the Magistracy of Canopus was recent, unpopular and short-lived, and the only reason they dealt with the Outworlds Alliance at all was to obtain fighters and experienced trainers for the TDF air wings.
Ummmmm, IIRC, the original Periphery book mention the OWA/TC cooperation in 3025. Also i remember (not so sure) that some of the worlds in what later becomes the New Colony Region were join colonized by the TC/MoC (before the NCR deal). Also, i remember mention of OWA settlers getting into the new TC colonies in exchange trade/ech advisors. And the new RW book mention the TC selling both mechs and warships to the OWA and MoC (WS only in the MoC case).
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Limited trade ties are one thing; Medron, however, has a very different (and entirely non-canonical) take on the Taurian Concordat's diplomatic relations with the other Periphery states.
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I dunno. They're willing to sell WarShips to multiple Periphery factions prior to the Reunification War. Then later on they work with the rest of the Periphery nations to set up the Periphery rebellion. They set up joint colonization with the MoC, as well as military personnel and equipment trades with the OA. They then set up a peace/non-aggression deal with the MoC, and then joined the Trinity alliance.
After the Jihad, we've already seen indications of heavy trade with the MoC of highly advanced technology.
For a group that seems to be unwilling to work with other Periphery nations, they seem to work with other Periphery nations quite a bit.
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I dunno. They're willing to sell WarShips to multiple Periphery factions prior to the Reunification War.
Everyone needs money. The Concordat has always traded its military output for the things they cannot otherwise access.
Then later on they work with the rest of the Periphery nations to set up the Periphery rebellion.
Amaris subourned them with the offer of 'Mechs. They were not interested in the other realms otherwise, but they saw the potential offered by a wider uprising.
They set up joint colonization with the MoC
8 worlds, and very recently. And, it must be noted, the closer ties with the Magistracy was quite unpopular- one of the things that forced Hadji Doru to resign his post and go into exile.
The Trinity Alliance was never popular with the Concordat- the very best approval rating it ever had was 43%, and that only after the Propaganda Department went into overdrive. After that, it fell sharply.
For a group that seems to be unwilling to work with other Periphery nations, they seem to work with other Periphery nations quite a bit.
Trading with other nations, entering into a vastly unpopular detente and alliance with their neighbours, jointly founding a small colonial area which rapidly secceeded, and acquiring technology does not imply or demonstrate a will to have strong diplomatic relations nor co-operate with other Periphery states.
At best, it's enlightened self-interest.
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8 worlds, and very recently. And, it must be noted, the closer ties with the Magistracy was quite unpopular- one of the things that forced Hadji Doru to resign his post and go into exile.
Umm... what?
Last I heard Hadji Doru resigned and went into exile because he'd just got done putting Jeffrey on the throne and didn't want to be a problem for the new regime. The Canopean deal was completely unrelated.
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P. 29, FM: P: "However, to prevent any political group from using him against Jeffrey Calderon, he resigned..."
P. 173, M&M: "When offered the position of minister of defence, he resigned, unwilling to take such a position and feeling his loyalty would always be questioned."
And then Jeffrey questions his loyalties after he signs on to lead the MAF.
I think he knew the Magistracy would try to pressure him to influence Jeffrey. YMMV.
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This ignores that Doru resigned before Jeffrey announced his dealings with the Magistracy, and the deal with the Magistracy was Jeffrey's game from the very beginning. The explanation is already given in periphery 2nd Edition. There's no need to read more into than that.
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P. 57, H: MPS. Hadji was the one who intiated the relations, only bringing Jeffrey in two or three years later.
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And if I remember the MWDA 'Touring The Stars' correctly it is a Doru that leads/controls the TC
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Yeah, IIRC, Marshal Doru returned to the TC after Shraplen bit the big asteroid. I don't know what happened exactly after that since I just don't study the Jihad but I seem to remember reading that somewhere.
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Well, the Taurians have certainly hit the big time in terms of high-end tech (and Blakist cooperation) after seeing the Foxhound DropShip (is 180 tons really a DropShip?) in TRO: Prototypes. You've got tech previously only experimental for only the Lyrans. And unless I'm misreading this (which is absolutely a possibility), it seems the military junta leading Taurus continued to work with the Blakists after knowing they were behind the asteroid attack. At least they got a scary system defense craft out of the deal.
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Well, the Taurians have certainly hit the big time in terms of high-end tech (and Blakist cooperation) after seeing the Foxhound DropShip (is 180 tons really a DropShip?) in TRO: Prototypes. You've got tech previously only experimental for only the Lyrans. And unless I'm misreading this (which is absolutely a possibility), it seems the military junta leading Taurus continued to work with the Blakists after knowing they were behind the asteroid attack. At least they got a scary system defense craft out of the deal.
That's a small craft, not a DropShip. Keep in mind that the IHGR was getting more common and apparently supplied by the Word. By 3090, it's not even considered advanced rules hardware. The armor was also carefully designed. The FedSuns doesn't commonly field PPCs or other heavy weapons off of their fighters, meaning that thresholding it is difficult, and the firepower's certainly impressive. Can't deny that.
What it says about the Taurian government, however, is very dark indeed. This is basically what the leadership's done now:
(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/176/1/b/Jumping_the_Shark_by_Mirz123.gif) (http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=§ion=&q=Jumping+the+Shark+emoticon#/d2sbfl8)
It's like watching a Saturday morning cartoon villain shake his fist and going, "I'll get you next time, you rascally Davion kids! And your little dog, too!"
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That's a small craft, not a DropShip.
Just going by the little ID marker on the left on the first page for that entry. That says DropShip. I figured it was a small craft, but just went with what it said there.
I understand about the iHGR. Just a little surprised it went to the Taurians first after the Lyrans. Still thought that seemed a little weird for the Taurians, especially considering they aren't a huge fielder of normal Gauss rifles.
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Just going by the little ID marker on the left on the first page for that entry. That says DropShip. I figured it was a small craft, but just went with what it said there.
Ah. Errata. The craft writeup on the right and the tonnage both mark it as a small craft. You want to report that or should I?
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Actually the Foxhound stood out not for the unit itself by the vitriol the person writing it had for the Taurians. Either way I fully expected by the end of it for the writer to pronounce his undying hatred and to name the brand these "Taurian Dictators" use to curl their jet black mustaches into union approved shapes. I suppose the Adept who was writing this must of been a Davion.
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Actually the Foxhound stood out not for the unit itself by the vitriol the person writing it had for the Taurians. Either way I fully expected by the end of it for the writer to pronounce his undying hatred and to name the brand these "Taurian Dictators" use to curl their jet black mustaches into union approved shapes. I suppose the Adept who was writing this must of been a Davion.
I wouldn't imagine the Word of Blake's last unrepentant ally to get good press...
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Yeah, I was a little surprised at that unrepentant stance. The asteroid strike was a defining moment for the Taurians, so I'm surprised they didn't turn on their allies.
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Yeah, I was a little surprised at that unrepentant stance. The asteroid strike was a defining moment for the Taurians, so I'm surprised they didn't turn on their allies.
That would have involved the military clique admitting that they were wrong. The Concordat's leadership... doesn't do that very well. Plus the lunatics that started running the asylum were the guys who interpreted "reprisal raid" as "Invade the Pleiades". Heck, one of them shipped nukes to the Pleiades without even bothering to consult Grover.
And their nation is falling apart around them (most of the Concordat up and left the Concordat). Even if the current Taurian Leadership knows in private who really dropped the rocks, they're in to deep to admit it now.
Such is the risks of playing in the big sandbox. The Concordat would have been much better off sticking to their corner of space, but then they'd be the most boring faction in the wargame. Crazy, at least, is fun.
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Brought this over here...
What's more telling (and depressing) was the implication that the Taurians worked with the Word after they knew the Blakists were behind the attack.
I dunno. It could just as easily read as them playing stooge to the WoB before it was known that the WoB was behind it. It doesn't specifically say that they continued to play stooge once the truth was known.
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That would have involved the military clique admitting that they were wrong. The Concordat's leadership... doesn't do that very well. Plus the lunatics that started running the asylum were the guys who interpreted "reprisal raid" as "Invade the Pleiades". Heck, one of them shipped nukes to the Pleiades without even bothering to consult Grover.
And their nation is falling apart around them (most of the Concordat up and left the Concordat). Even if the current Taurian Leadership knows in private who really dropped the rocks, they're in to deep to admit it now.
I was just about to say that last part but you put the context in. Nice summation!
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What's the ancient Liao proverb?
Ah yes...I've got it now...
"May you live in interesting times...."
The Taurian Concordat is certainly....um...interesting...in that "Good Doggie, now where did I put that stick?" kind of interesting...
:o
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I just read the Foxhound entry...wow...whatever ComStar acolyte wrote that REALLY hates the Taurian Concordat...
I was ready for the mustache twirling evil laugh to come out of there...
:D
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After just glancing over FR: Periphery, I now understand how badly the Taurians were hammered. Even after all of the mess that happened to the MoC, if they combined with the Calderon Protectorate, they'd have a larger than 2 to 1 advantage against the TDF. The Calderon forces are over half the size of the remaining TDF and even the Marians match the size of the Taurians.
Ouch. Twice.
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The Protectorate got bigger and the MAF was already larger. The TDF isn't even all that damaged. It's walking around with about half the mechs the AFFS retains. If it helps, I suspect the final beatdown is yet to come.
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The TDF isn't even all that damaged.
Missing battalions from basically every regiment and the entire II, IV, and VI Corps being gone "isn't even all that damaged"?
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Precisely.
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*shrugs* It seemed like a lot of damage to me. I was really surprised to see that the Protectorate had 5 regiments left, the MoC 15 (or 16, can't recall), and the TDF only 8.
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How many did it have before the Jihad? It's lost what, maybe a third of its regiments?
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How many did it have before the Jihad? It's lost what, maybe a third of its regiments?
Try over half when you account for the fact that the formations themselves are understrength by enough to account for at least two more.
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9 regiments as of FM:U (3067)
I thought that they added another regiment in the early Jihad as well, but I don't recall definitely.
Roughly 5.2 regiments as of FR: Periphery, if I'm counting the percentages right? (I'm so not guaranteeing my math at this hour.)
For point of comparison (also if I'm counting the percentages right):
MoC - 11.1
Fronc Reaches - 1.15
Calderon Protectorate - 2.0 (boy howdy, I so should have looked at those strength percentages before. We can scratch that point of as mattering.)
Filtevelt - 1.85
Marians - 4.6
So, my points of comparison earlier were definitely off, except for the MoC. MoC is more than double, but Protectorate and Marians still come in underneath. The drop from 9 to 5 certainly seems big to me though for the Taurians. Opinions on that will vary, I guess. :)
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Try over half when you account for the fact that the formations themselves are understrength by enough to account for at least two more.
just out of curiosity is that understrength relative to a typical inner sphere formation, or understrength relative to the four company battalions (or four battalion regiments, I can never remember which) the TDF made use of?
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just out of curiosity is that understrength relative to a typical inner sphere formation, or understrength relative to the four company battalions (or four battalion regiments, I can never remember which) the TDF made use of?
Normal IS formations.
Roughly 5.2 regiments as of FR: Periphery, if I'm counting the percentages right? (I'm so not guaranteeing my math at this hour.)
I thought it was higher but I was also including the defections to the Protectorate. Still more than a third, though.
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just out of curiosity is that understrength relative to a typical inner sphere formation, or understrength relative to the four company battalions (or four battalion regiments, I can never remember which) the TDF made use of?
With that set up, the numbers would be higher. I just went based off normal IS formations.
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I'd assume that the percentages are based off their expected base strength, and, as such the TC forces would be meassured aginst their naominal four-company strength.
What really surprised me was how low the troop quality had gotten; the TC seems to be running with a lot of green regiments. I guess they had a rather high turnover during the war.
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Missing battalions from basically every regiment and the entire II, IV, and VI Corps being gone "isn't even all that damaged"?
The II and VI Corps were gone before the Jihad started. The IV Corps was one regiment.
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9 regiments as of FM:U (3067)
I thought that they added another regiment in the early Jihad as well, but I don't recall definitely.
The Fourth Taurian Lancers mention in the fluff text as being destroyed in 3075 was not in the 3067 TO&E, so they had be added during the Jihad.
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The 4th Taurian Lancers was formed from the survivors of the 2nd Taurian Lancers.
With regards,
Øystein
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I thought it was higher but I was also including the defections to the Protectorate. Still more than a third, though.
Every unit is at least at 60%. Find me a successor state with its military in better shape post-Jihad. They fought a war against something several times their size, and they survived. The damage so far has been minimal. I suspect that after the AFFS pushes them back, current circumstances will seem like heaven.
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Anyone know which unit struck Lindsey in the FedSuns during the Pledias adventure?
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9 Regiments in 3067
5 Calderon and 8 Taurian regiments in...3080? That is actually MORE formations in that area of space than there was before. Granted, they are pounded, but that is an interesting factoid...
;)
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More in that region of space, maybe. But those 5 and those 8 (actually more like those 2 and those 5, so it really isn't more as it was 9 and 2 back in 3067) are not working together any time soon. In fact, they're much more interested in going against each other.
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Hmm... no mention of the fate of the Vendetta that my quick scans can find. Interesting...
I wonder if she's no longer in any shape to fight. The Taurians don't exactly have the shipyards to maintain her properly. I'd be surprised if the Davions thought they could afford to leave her free if she was still in fighting trim. And I'd be even more surprised if the ship was destroyed and nobody bothered to mention it.
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Only so much room.
The Vendetta is still kicking around in Taurian hands.
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Only so much room.
The Vendetta is still kicking around in Taurian hands.
Or chewing its cud in Taurian vernacular. ;)
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Or chewing its cud in Taurian vernacular. ;)
I'm inclined to think it's probably not in good shape, though.
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9 Regiments in 3067
5 Calderon and 8 Taurian regiments in...3080? That is actually MORE formations in that area of space than there was before. Granted, they are pounded, but that is an interesting factoid...
;)
The Protectorate formed 3 Guards Regiments during the Jihad.
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I'm inclined to think it's probably not in good shape, though.
IIRC, it was badly damaged by FedSuns forces and hasn't been seen in action since. Given that the Taurnians lack the facilities and know-how to repair it without the Word's help - and that the Word has other priorities right now - I'd say it's largely a non-issue
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Though a Fed Suns offensive meant to kill her would be a fascinating campaign...
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I've got a question for the Taurians here and hope you can help me. I'd like to know, how many 'Mechs a Taurian coprs contains. I know that the TDF has 4 'Mechs to a lance, 3 lances to a company and 4 companies to a battalion. Then 3 battalions to a regiment. But how many units does a corps contain?
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I've got a question for the Taurians here and hope you can help me. I'd like to know, how many 'Mechs a Taurian coprs contains. I know that the TDF has 4 'Mechs to a lance, 3 lances to a company and 4 companies to a battalion. Then 3 battalions to a regiment. But how many units does a corps contain?
Nominally, each was up to three regiments, but unfortunately the exact strength and composition depended on which Corps you were talking about - some were all-native, while some included mercenary formations that probably used a different format. Just a second, while I dig out my most recent hardcopy source, Periphery 2e...
In 3058, the Taurian Guard Corps consisted of three TDF regiments, the Taurian Guard, the Taurian Velites, and the Concordat Commandos - all native, presumably all using 'square' companies. Total authorised strength would be about 432 'Mechs (3 rgts x 3 btn x 4 coy x 3 lances x 4 'Mechs).
I Corps included two TDF regiments (Concordat Jagers and Red Chasseurs), plus one mercenary regiment of unknown composition (Gordon's Armoured Cavalry). Assuming that Gordon's uses the 'classic' IS format, that means ~396 'Mechs.
II Corps: Concordat Cuirassiers (TDF), Hyades Light Infantry (TDF), Longwood's Bluecoats (merc/2 btn). Best guess, (2 x 144 + (2 x 36)) ~ 324 'Mechs at maximum 'paper' strength.
III Corps: Pleiades Hussars (TDF), 1st Taurian Lancers (TDF), Bannockburn's Bandits (merc/2 btn), so about the same as II Corps.
IV Corps: Pleiades Lancers (TDF), 2nd Taurian Lancers (TDF); 2 x 144 means ~ 288 'Mechs.
V Corps: Vandelay's Valkyries (merc), Lone Star Regiment (merc). Presumably these are 'classic' IS-style regiments, so they'd be authorised for up to ~216 'Mechs.
VI Corps: 1st New Colony Lancers (TDF), Protector's Pride (TDF/2 btn), Prey's Divisional's (merc/1 btn), The Clean Kill (merc/1 btn). (5 x 48) + (2 x 36) makes for ~312 'Mechs.
Of course, this data's from 3058, not up-to-the minute, but I hope it helps nonetheless.
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I've got a question for the Taurians here and hope you can help me. I'd like to know, how many 'Mechs a Taurian coprs contains. I know that the TDF has 4 'Mechs to a lance, 3 lances to a company and 4 companies to a battalion. Then 3 battalions to a regiment. But how many units does a corps contain?
There is no set number for the corps level formations. It varies depending upon the number of units assigned to them, but on average each corps was assigned approximately 3 regiments so you do the math. They were designed more for administrative and command purposes rather than actual field formations. For example, V Corps was comprised entirely of mercenary units until the formation of the 3rd Taurian Lancers.
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Going from memory the TDF also has Regimental Command Lances (4 mechs) and Corps Command Companies (12 mechs)
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The Corps-level command company is a mix of 'Mechs and vehicles, with the vehicles used for scouting, as per FM:P p52.
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My memory was a bit off then ::)
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Thank you all! :)
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So if the Federated Suns is essentially Britain/France, Steiner is essentially German, Kurita is essentially Japan...
What is the Taurian Concordat?
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The South through a mecha funhouse mirror.
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Not sure how the TC could be "the south". A lot of "Early US" through a Mecha funhouse mirror, but "the south" has a lot of connotations that the TC just doesn't even have on any level... :D
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The Fascist Wild West.
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The Fascist Wild West.
This!
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Not exactly sure how then you're not saying things like "Totalitarian France, England and Germany" for the IS powers.
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My comment is only relevant for the modern TC. The TC previously under Jeffrey Calderon would be the "Progressive Wild West", but since then it is obviously the "Fascist Wild West", according to our very own HB: MPS, the TDF regularly rounds up its own citizens for interrogations and alleged secret executions under the suspicion that they are "Davion agitators". And of course, Grover Shraplen is a giant walking hypocrite. His successors who form the junta are scum using a cloak of legitimacy. Let's not even get into their military campaigns since 3067 ::)
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The South through a mecha funhouse mirror.
The Taurian PPC does involve some mint and bourbon....
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My comment is only relevant for the modern TC. The TC previously under Jeffrey Calderon would be the "Progressive Wild West", but since then it is obviously the "Fascist Wild West", according to our very own HB: MPS, the TDF regularly rounds up its own citizens for interrogations and alleged secret executions under the suspicion that they are "Davion agitators". And of course, Grover Shraplen is a giant walking hypocrite. His successors who form the junta are scum using a cloak of legitimacy. Let's not even get into their military campaigns since 3067 ::)
So in other words... no different from the pre-Junta TC then.
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Yeah. It could be called the "post-Jeffrey TC"
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Or just "the Taurian Concordat."
Since that pattern of behaviour well and truly pre-dates Jeffrey.
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There never was a junta or any of Grover's actions that pre-dated Jeffrey.
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No, but there was a pattern of perpetual and insane paranoia that goes back to the nation's founding.
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I never realized. The insane paranoia part wasn't emphasized in the Handbook before Thomas Calderon's era. I thought the Taurians even fought a war with the Capellans before ever coming to blows with the Suns.
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The insane paranioa has been a constant feature of the Concordat since its founding. Much to its detriment.
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I never realized. The insane paranoia part wasn't emphasized in the Handbook before Thomas Calderon's era. I thought the Taurians even fought a war with the Capellans before ever coming to blows with the Suns.
You're thinking of the 2397 to 2422 war, when the Capellan Confederation decided to oust the Taurians from what they considered to be "Capellan" space even though they'd never estalished colonies there. The CapCon captured 3 Taurian worlds in 2417 and the war was notable for the widespread cruelty towards Taurian prisoners and massacres of Taurian civilians. As a consequence the Taurians refused to sign the Ares Convention because of their hatred of the Capellans.
Strangely, this has never really had much future impact on Taurian-Capellan relations, other than a rejection of the Capellan's offer in 2423 of a formal alliance between themselves, the Taurians, Canopians, other nearby periphery worlds and possibly the Anduriens. The Taurians rejected the offer - no surprise considering the events of the past quarter century - but settled for neutrality instead, with the occasional (and wary) temporary alliance against the Davions, a policy they'd established in the 24th century and continued through the 25th.
The FedSuns initial - and accidental - conflict with the TauCon occured in 2368, when they first mistook the Taurian system of Robart as being a staging post for what they believed was a recent flanking attack by CapCon WarShips on the FedSuns' colony of Sanurcha. Those CapCon vessels were actually pursuing Tikonov forces that had rejected Franco Liao's rule of the newly founded Capellan Confederation and had fled unknowingly into Taurian territory. The pursuing CapCon forces did catch up with the Tikonov band over Pinard where what is described as a "melee" broke out, so it's possible that there was fighting between CapCon and TauCon forces before the Tikonov force escaped in hijacked Taurian vessels and the CapCon ships took off in pursuit once again. Once the Suns realized that there wasn't a secret CapCon base and that they weren't just pirates, they pretty much ignored the TauCon apart from some occasional raiding of TDF bases to try to draw out their navy.
Whether the Taurian fear of the Davions can truely be called insane it perhaps questionable, but the cause of their paranoia is odd. The nearby United Hindu Collective, which was founded roughly around the time that Taurus was first settled and who were even closer to the seat of Davion power, showed that it was perfectly possible to peacefully co-exist alongside the recently formed FedSuns. Then from 2318 to 2330, and possibly as late as 2344, so from 12 to 26 years, the Suns had a weak reputation, with the various Capellan states regularly invading and conquering Suns planets. It's fair to say that for the first 27 years of its existance the FedSuns was a military joke, while the various Capellan states not only fought wars of aggression against each other, but also had little to fear from the lame FPF, the precursor to the AFFS. The Suns attack on the Tikonov Union in 2344 was the first successful attempt to reclaim a previously lost Suns world since the founding of the faction, and their attack on the Sarna Supremacy in 2357 was likely for the same reason.
In 2360, a Taurian explorer helps Capellan colonists who'd been captured on Bell and transported to Tentativa to overthrow the Suns garrison, which is arguably the first act of war between the TauCon and FedSuns, with the TauCon the aggressor, but the explorer was acting without orders, so it would be questionable to blame the TauCon government. However, the TauCon does then proceed to build a fleet of warships, apparently with the Davions somehow considered the most likely enemy. When the fleeing Tikonov unit arrived in Taurian space, both parties are noted as despising the Davions and that Calderon wanted to work out a way to use them against the Suns without being entangled in Capellan politics. The Tikonov force's opinion of the Davions is understandable given that they were actual enemies, but was is somewhat puzzling is the Taurian's attitude given the example of the UHC, the poor military showing of the Suns for a lot of its history up until that point and the complete lack of contact between the Suns and Taurians. Unlike the Capellans, who had already established trading links with the Taurians, the Suns weren't even aware the Taurians existed.
It's possible that the Taurians' perceptions of events closer to Terra had been colored by those Capellan traders, and perhaps for some reason they were influenced more by the Capellan refugees who were fleeing the fighting than by those Suns refugees who had also fled. Despite the amount of internal warfare between the Capellan states and their successful military record against the Suns, which could color them as far more militant and thus perhaps more of a threat to some people, perhaps the Taurians were simply more impressed by the unity of the Suns, which even though it had mostly been a military failure, lacked the same level of internal discord. Although once the CapCon was formed, and in the process throwing back the Suns once more, reversing most of their recent gains, the Capellans should have been considered just as much of a threat.
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You're thinking of the 2397 to 2422 war, when the Capellan Confederation decided to oust the Taurians from what they considered to be "Capellan" space even though they'd never estalished colonies there. The CapCon captured 3 Taurian worlds in 2417 and the war was notable for the widespread cruelty towards Taurian prisoners and massacres of Taurian civilians. As a consequence the Taurians refused to sign the Ares Convention because of their hatred of the Capellans.
Your timeline does not agree with Era Digest: Age of War, which gives 2418-2422 for the Rim War. It looks like things have been retconned since Perphery 1st Ed.
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Or the more usual explanation, FASA's fact checking was awful. The dates in Age of War agree with the description given in the old Capellan house book as well as the timing of Baxter's ascension to the Chancellorship.
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You're thinking of the 2397 to 2422 war, when the Capellan Confederation decided to oust the Taurians from what they considered to be "Capellan" space even though they'd never estalished colonies there. The CapCon captured 3 Taurian worlds in 2417 and the war was notable for the widespread cruelty towards Taurian prisoners and massacres of Taurian civilians. As a consequence the Taurians refused to sign the Ares Convention because of their hatred of the Capellans.
Strangely, this has never really had much future impact on Taurian-Capellan relations, other than a rejection of the Capellan's offer in 2423 of a formal alliance between themselves, the Taurians, Canopians, other nearby periphery worlds and possibly the Anduriens. The Taurians rejected the offer - no surprise considering the events of the past quarter century - but settled for neutrality instead, with the occasional (and wary) temporary alliance against the Davions, a policy they'd established in the 24th century and continued through the 25th.
I do find this odd - why do the Taurians usually like to paint the Suns as an overwhelming enemy and not just peacefully co-exist with them. It's not like the Suns ever committed a Kentares on Taurian territory for that degree of hatred to exist.
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I have the feeling that the United Hindu Collective, despite being mentioned in the original House Davion book, has actually only recently been developed in any particular detail. ColBosch is probably the best person to speak as he did the research on it, but where Era Digest: Age of War gives a good description of the UHC and a nice map, in terms of the original House Davion and the 1st Ed Periphery Sourcebook, I think anything beyond the edge of the Concordat that wasn't Capellan space was basically a big area marked "here be nasty Davions." There are a lot of mini-states and protostates mentioned in the early House books that are an absolute nightmare to try and reconcile with the information available - examples are the Ingersoll Concordium, the Nanking Protective, the Chisholm Protectorate, the Muskegon Empire/Coalition, the Chesterton Trade Federation/League/Worlds, the Marlette Association, the Tikonov Union/Grand Union and the Rasalhague Principality. Whilst the Handbooks have clarified a lot of detail on some, like the Sarna Supremacy, Capellan Hegemony and the like, very few get actual maps, and even when they do, those maps all relate to the founding of later states. I was discussing the Republic of Marik this morning with someone, because Handbook: House Marik really clears up what the Republic was and where/how it led to the Marik Commonwealth, but there's no map to say which worlds it covered. I asked a question in the writers area about the Muskegon Empire/Coalition, because I thought I'd made a reasonable stab at working out what the 7 worlds of the Empire/Coalition were based on the FedSuns founding maps from Handbook: House Davion, Handbook: House Liao and the narrative descriptions of wars, raids conquests and the like from the earlier Liao and Davion Housebooks. You can see the response here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,9560.msg223700.html#msg223700 - Øystein indicates that reconciling things from the earier FASA sourcebooks is a real pain.
So, using geography to try and work out why the Taurians were so paranoid about the Federated Suns is probably a bit of a lost cause. Given that the original Taurian settlers were followers of Samantha Calderon who'd basically been on the receiving end of the Outer Reaches Rebellion; that Timothy Calderon set up the original Taurian Homeworlds/Calderon Protectorate to be a state with hereditary leaders because of how much the democratic system was despised as a symbol of the Terrain Alliance from which the settlers had escaped; that early encounters with the FedSuns included finding 15,000 slave labour prisoners from Bell; and that the FedSuns was bigger and notionally more democratic than the Capellan Confederation - ignoring the republic style governments of the Capellan Republic and Capellan Hegemony - it probably boils down to: the FedSuns were bigger, more pseudo-democratic (shades of the Alliance after generations of descriptions and horror stories) and happy to deport planetary populations to use as slave labour and much closer in perceived nature to the Terran Alliance the original settlers had tried to escape than the Capellans.
The early conflict with the Capellans seems to have been pretty straightforward, with the Capellan state being identified as being generally unpleasant by those escaping Tikonov forces, but also fairly straightforward in their actions. On the other hand, Reynard Davion set the tone for the FedSuns first encounter with the Concordat, around the time treaties like the Acala Pact were being torn up by the respective sides. The Capellans may have seemed more openly hostile, but that's almost more honest about their nature, and smaller as a state (and less threatening) than the FedSuns, who could easily have been protrayed as treacherous, aggressive, expansionist and cruel. The United Hindu Collective seems generally benevolant from the description in Age of War, but if I was in the Concordat and heard that the UHC had joined the FedSuns, I could see myself asking how much of that was voluntary, and be really twitchy about how the FedSuns border has suddenly swept a lot closer.
It probably doesn't help that the Concordat's beginnings were in the Outer Reaches Rebellion, where the Alliance and the rebels were generally unpleasant to each other, that their early contacts with groups from the Inner Sphere were apparently entirely with refugees fleeing from active wars (or the aforementioned ex-Bell labourers) and that soon after they met the FedSuns and the Capellan Confederation proper, the Inner Sphere nations were happily using WMDs on each other as variously a means of conquest, subjugation or emphasis. Those are all factors likely to create a certain amount of paranoia, even before you discount the lack of HPGs which resulted in slow and incomplete dissemination of news and events, and the rather insular, isolationist habits of the Concordat as a nation, something that also tends to give natives a tendency towards a conservative, xenophobic and skewed outlook.
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The distrust could be that the FS took around 35/54 of their worlds at one point where the cappies have only taken a few worlds. After a hostile conquerer eats 65% of your territory, generally the better worlds as worlds closer to Terra tend to be more populated etc.
And that the majority of TC worlds are on the border in one unprotectable line within one jump from any aggressor. Especially after the CP broke off.
And that they found smoking gun evidence against them. etc etc etc.
As for the culture in general. TC is described as the only egalitarian state in the sphere. So that in addition to the fairly liberal school etc systems gives it a scandinavian social democracy kind of feel. Add the background of state being established as haven for those fleeing Terran tyranny back in the day gives it a nice value set. And the french revolutionary loans for military culture etc. So it totals to something like the french republican Liberte Equalite Fraternite type of state with scandinavian social democracy additions and lots of local colour from the various plantetary cultures. Even the leaders are like from the french revolutionary republic. Straight from the committee on public safety.
Anyways. Whatever happened to the Brinton union? All those planets just fell of the map. Part of the 1/5th of the TC population that got wiped off in the Reunification war?
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The distrust could be that the FS took around 35/54 of their worlds at one point where the cappies have only taken a few worlds.
While I can agree with respect to the Taurian antipathy towards the FedSuns in the Star League/post-Star League era, it makes less sense prior to the War of Reunification, especially when compared to the relationship with the Capellans at the time.
The Taurians established a deep distrust of the Davions before they'd even encountered each other. The situation with the Bell colonists and Capellan traders perhaps telling slanted tales could perhaps explain it, but you'd have to ask how stupid the Taurians would have to be to base their future national policy and military plans on what would undoubtably and naturally be biased evidence. In addition, prior to this time they were also encountering refugees from the various wars, which would have also included Suns citizens fleeing the continuous series of invasions and conquering of Suns worlds by the Capellan states, as well as Capellan citizens fleeing the wars between the Capellan states. If anything, the Taurians should have perceived the Capellans as the more aggressive and potentially threatening factions, despite their smaller individual size. The Capellan state's tendancy to ally together against the outsider could at least partially counter the perception of the apparent size disparity with the Suns. The Taurians might have been aware of the size of the Suns, but given that it was apparently as tough as a marshmellow, just how threatening could it be?
(As a quick aside, don't forget that the territory of the combined Capellans states would have been much larger in certain areas than we see in 3025. Yes, there would have still been some more expansion to come due to exploring or otherwise, but they'd also yet to suffer the massive reverse of the Succession Wars against both the Suns and the League.)
By the early/mid 2400s the Taurians had established a neutral stance with the Capellans, never quite trusting them and only ever entering into temporary alliances of convenience against the Suns. This is despite the Capellans having invaded and conquered their territory in an incredibly brutal display of barbarity, at least by Taurian standards.
In contrast, the Suns had conducted one raid, that resulted in the defeat of their naval squadron, and should have provided the Taurians with a lot of intel to reevaluate their beliefs. That's then followed by nothing more than the occasional naval skirmishing, with no invasions and no widespread slaughtering of civilians. But it's the Suns that the Taurians still insist on painting as the bad guy.
At this stage in the history between the various factions, given what has actually happened rather than what they've been told, the Taurians should have been trying to establish a wary neutrality with the Suns, and saving their hatred for the Capellans.
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While I can agree with respect to the Taurian antipathy towards the FedSuns in the Star League/post-Star League era, it makes less sense prior to the War of Reunification, especially when compared to the relationship with the Capellans at the time.
The Taurians established a deep distrust of the Davions before they'd even encountered each other. The situation with the Bell colonists and Capellan traders perhaps telling slanted tales could perhaps explain it, but you'd have to ask how stupid the Taurians would have to be to base their future national policy and military plans on what would undoubtably and naturally be biased evidence. In addition, prior to this time they were also encountering refugees from the various wars, which would have also included Suns citizens fleeing the continuous series of invasions and conquering of Suns worlds by the Capellan states, as well as Capellan citizens fleeing the wars between the Capellan states. If anything, the Taurians should have perceived the Capellans as the more aggressive and potentially threatening factions, despite their smaller individual size. The Capellan state's tendancy to ally together against the outsider could at least partially counter the perception of the apparent size disparity with the Suns. The Taurians might have been aware of the size of the Suns, but given that it was apparently as tough as a marshmellow, just how threatening could it be?
Since it is a bit silly to try to cover all time eras at one time, I will concentrate on the reign of Richard Calderon and the 2350-60s. The Age of War Era is another issue, that should be considered separately.
So, I would list the following points:
- The Capellan Confederation was not formed yet, so the smaller states would not look like such a big threats.
- The Federated Suns have had a history of rapid expansion.
- Sometimes this expansion did not include the consent of the planets incorporated, as with Beten Kaitos and Emerson.
- The Federated Suns where friendly with the Terran Hegemony and did in many cases get their backing.
- The future Capellan worlds that did border the TC where all one-planet states, with the nearest multi-planetary member (St. Ives) being quite some distance away.
- On the other hand, the Fed Suns did border the TC directly before the formation of the CC.
- Bell, and Reynard going hyper-aggressive.
- The TC did only have sporadic contact with Capellan zone traders.
In summary I think you understates the Fed Suns' strength, and the aggressive of their expansion, and misses that the TC did not share a direct border with any pre-CC multi-planetary members.
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While I can agree with respect to the Taurian antipathy towards the FedSuns in the Star League/post-Star League era, it makes less sense prior to the War of Reunification, especially when compared to the relationship with the Capellans at the time.
The Taurians established a deep distrust of the Davions before they'd even encountered each other. The situation with the Bell colonists and Capellan traders perhaps telling slanted tales could perhaps explain it, but you'd have to ask how stupid the Taurians would have to be to base their future national policy and military plans on what would undoubtably and naturally be biased evidence. In addition, prior to this time they were also encountering refugees from the various wars, which would have also included Suns citizens fleeing the continuous series of invasions and conquering of Suns worlds by the Capellan states, as well as Capellan citizens fleeing the wars between the Capellan states. If anything, the Taurians should have perceived the Capellans as the more aggressive and potentially threatening factions, despite their smaller individual size. The Capellan state's tendancy to ally together against the outsider could at least partially counter the perception of the apparent size disparity with the Suns. The Taurians might have been aware of the size of the Suns, but given that it was apparently as tough as a marshmellow, just how threatening could it be?
(As a quick aside, don't forget that the territory of the combined Capellans states would have been much larger in certain areas than we see in 3025. Yes, there would have still been some more expansion to come due to exploring or otherwise, but they'd also yet to suffer the massive reverse of the Succession Wars against both the Suns and the League.)
By the early/mid 2400s the Taurians had established a neutral stance with the Capellans, never quite trusting them and only ever entering into temporary alliances of convenience against the Suns. This is despite the Capellans having invaded and conquered their territory in an incredibly brutal display of barbarity, at least by Taurian standards.
In contrast, the Suns had conducted one raid, that resulted in the defeat of their naval squadron, and should have provided the Taurians with a lot of intel to reevaluate their beliefs. That's then followed by nothing more than the occasional naval skirmishing, with no invasions and no widespread slaughtering of civilians. But it's the Suns that the Taurians still insist on painting as the bad guy.
At this stage in the history between the various factions, given what has actually happened rather than what they've been told, the Taurians should have been trying to establish a wary neutrality with the Suns, and saving their hatred for the Capellans.
While the conflict with Capellans may have been more brutal, the lack of any significant shared border indicate that territory lost was never extensive or important enough to cause long term fueds to form. The lack of shared boder with CC and the very long border shared with FS is also key here. It's a concept called strategic threat. TC worlds are within one jump of the FC, while they are not within jump distance from CC FWL DC RHR OWA and what have you. As such the only logical threat comes from the one direction that can actually threaten them.
Add onto this the history of House Davion. They have every step of the way swindeled hustled conned or taken by force their position of power first on New Avalon and then in every other institution that finally formed the entity known as the Federated Suns.
And they are Militaristic. And aggressive.
As for the history. TC has been mainly inhabited by refugees or colonists leaving the Inner sphere. For a various number of reasons. Economic refugees, political refugees and victims of opression.
Where did these people come from? Again, we come to the question of which IS power does TC share most border with? And now if they came from there, why did they leave?
So, as you see through this little narrative, the reasons for the prudence and vigilance of the Taurian public are well justified. And they are even reinforced from time to time as even appearences of weakness have caused them to attack, as with Case Amber. Pile on to that the WMD attacks on Taurus etc. and the human tendancy for confirmation bias and you have a perfectl internal logic to their thinking.
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At the time in question the Suns had a history of mostly peaceful expansion via diplomacy - I have no doubt that strong arm tactics were sometimes involved, but not to the point that resulted in major conflicts with other factions - and they only got into their first war due to the internal politics of their latest member state and what can be viewed as outside interference. Yes, the Suns then handled the sitiation badly and paid the price for it too.
That happens just a year after the Suns was formed and from that point onwards, for the next 12 to 26 years until 2344, then at best they're fighting a holding action as the various Capellan states conquer Suns territory. In between conquering each others territory, of course. Many worlds decided to join the Capellan states simply because the Suns was perceived as weak and thus unable to defend them, compared to the battlefield prowess of the various Capellans. This would be the background of many of those refugees who began to flood into the area surrounding Taurian territory, and the tale they'd bring would be that the Suns are weak and the Capellan states might be small but are militarily successful overall.
Most notably, those refugees, of unknown origin, were first encountered by the Taurians in 2331, so Capellan traders would not have been their only contact, although unlike the refugees, those same traders would have been better able to filter back information the other way. We also have no firm date for when the traders first made contact, we only know it occured some time before 2368 (or 2369 judging by HBHD).
As for the Bell colonists, the Taurians were already afraid of the Davions in 2335, 25 years prior to those events, during the time when their only contact was via the above refugees and perhaps the Capellan traders, assuming they'd already arrived.
Reynard may have been a hyper-aggressive ruler, but his campaigns were effectively a counter to decades of prior Capellan advances into Suns territory, and he never pursued a campaign against the Taurians after the initial naval skirmishes to establish just who they were. More importantly, the Taurian's attitude towards the Davions was established prior to his rule.
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While the conflict with Capellans may have been more brutal, the lack of any significant shared border indicate that territory lost was never extensive or important enough to cause long term fueds to form.
Taking and keeping 3 Taurian worlds - Zanzibar, Corodiz and Mendham - definitely left the two factions with a shared border. At some point prior to the end of the Age of War the CapCon also sniped Shaunavon and Kern, two more Taurian worlds.
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Taking and keeping 3 Taurian worlds - Zanzibar, Corodiz and Mendham - definitely left the two factions with a shared border. At some point prior to the end of the Age of War the CapCon also sniped Shaunavon and Kern, two more Taurian worlds.
So 3/57 vs 35/54. In percentages 5% or 35% permanent loss. Which does seem more likely to cause a grudge? Same goes to your border argument. At best Capellan border was 1/5th of the FS border and the ability to threaten worlds diminishel in relation.
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Except that you're missing the point that the Taurian dislike of the Suns and guarded neutrality with respect to the Capellans long predates the War of Reunification. The correct comparison at the time would be 3/57 vs 0/57.
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I'm talking about the here and now.
The situation in the very begginning is likely a combination of bad fact checking or lack of material for that part.
Which is actually quite understandable as the CC TC conflict you mentioned did not register at all into the collective history of the periphery. It's only mentioned in House book Liao, and not the Periphery books.
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The here and now is all very well, but the conversation had been about the pre-SL era, springboarding off a question about the CapCon's attack on the TauCon.
And the CapCon's assault on the Taurians was actually detailed in the 1st ed Periphery book, page 20, even if certain dates and events have now been retconed in the Age of War sourcebook.
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I'm talking about the here and now.
The situation in the very begginning is likely a combination of bad fact checking or lack of material for that part.
Which is actually quite understandable as the CC TC conflict you mentioned did not register at all into the collective history of the periphery. It's only mentioned in House book Liao, and not the Periphery books
... or, possibly, the Taurian Concordat may always have had an insane paranoia about the Federated Suns?
We're talking about a group of people who decided to set up shop in an asteroid-shrouded system that claimed the lives of thousands to try and avoid detection. There need not be any explanation beyond "The Taurians have always been like that."
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... or, possibly, the Taurian Concordat may always have had an insane paranoia about the Federated Suns?
We're talking about a group of people who decided to set up shop in an asteroid-shrouded system that claimed the lives of thousands to try and avoid detection. There need not be any explanation beyond "The Taurians have always been like that."
That's pretty much the basic "They're mad hurr durr" argument and like always it fails to a lack of internal concistency.
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Unreasoned paranioa is a bit like that.
The Concordat has been portrayed as bunkering down in fear of the Davion bogeymsn almost since its inception. It's consistent, and it's a defining feature of the faction.
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Taurian Concordat: The Chicken Little of the Inner Sphere
Which makes the FedSuns Foxy Loxy.
Hmm.
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Unreasoned paranioa is a bit like that.
The Concordat has been portrayed as bunkering down in fear of the Davion bogeymsn almost since its inception. It's consistent, and it's a defining feature of the faction.
It's only paranoia if they aren't out to get you.
And the TC suspicions have been proven right time and again.
So their position is totally vindicated.
Ang as I said above it has to do with strategic threat consept. Largest shared border ---> biggest threat.
And as such the "hurr durr cracccyyyy" argument is invalidated.
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Aside from the fact that every single time the Suns has attacked the Concordat it has been because the Concordat made the initial strike.
First contact? The Suns had no idea they were dealing with another nation; they thought they had run into some pirates. The Taurians helped that along by then going on to prey upon Suns shipping, further fostering that and causing the Suns to play closer and closer attention to their new foe.
Malagrotta Affair and Reunfication War? Again, the Taurians at work. A WarShip squadron "accidentally" mis-jumps into the demilitarised system, refuses to leave, and is then destroyed because they wanted to see if the Suns would blink first. Granted, the Hegemony was looking for an excuse to conquer the Periphery, but deliberately antagonising a superior opponent who had, up until then, absolutely no interest in going on the offensive is an exceptionally poor idea.
FedCom Civil War/Jihad? A Taurian force, armed with nuclear weaponry, decides to attack the Pleiades Cluster (which by that stage had belonged to the Suns for the majority of its history and had no known interest in re-uniting with the Concordat any way) while the majority of the AFFS is distracted by other more pressing issues. For bonus points, they enact war crimes that get the Roughriders unleashed against them, dispatch the Vendetta on a mission of genocide, and once the Suns is no longer pre-occupied pay the price.
The Federated Suns has never had any designs on the Concordat. The Taurians' fear has been and continues to be unfounded. So long as they leave the Suns alone, the Suns ignoress them. Taurian paranoia, however, constantly gets them smacked down.
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Malagrotta Affair and Reunfication War? Again, the Taurians at work. A WarShip squadron "accidentally" mis-jumps into the demilitarised system, refuses to leave, and is then destroyed because they wanted to see if the Suns would blink first. Granted, the Hegemony was looking for an excuse to conquer the Periphery, but deliberately antagonising a superior opponent who had, up until then, absolutely no interest in going on the offensive is an exceptionally poor idea.
The vessels, suffering electrical faults that compromised their communications systems and life sup-
port, approached the mining colonies seeking aid. However, the Federated Suns’ outpost,
believing themselves under attack by the Concordat, dispatched couriers warning House
Davion of the “sneak attack.” The AFFS responded swiftly, dispatching a ten-ship task force
that destroyed or captured all but one of the Taurian vessels in a three-hour battle.
So, who should I believe, you or CGL?
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Aside from the fact that every single time the Suns has attacked the Concordat it has been because the Concordat made the initial strike.
First contact? The Suns had no idea they were dealing with another nation; they thought they had run into some pirates. The Taurians helped that along by then going on to prey upon Suns shipping, further fostering that and causing the Suns to play closer and closer attention to their new foe.
Malagrotta Affair and Reunfication War? Again, the Taurians at work. A WarShip squadron "accidentally" mis-jumps into the demilitarised system, refuses to leave, and is then destroyed because they wanted to see if the Suns would blink first. Granted, the Hegemony was looking for an excuse to conquer the Periphery, but deliberately antagonising a superior opponent who had, up until then, absolutely no interest in going on the offensive is an exceptionally poor idea.
FedCom Civil War/Jihad? A Taurian force, armed with nuclear weaponry, decides to attack the Pleiades Cluster (which by that stage had belonged to the Suns for the majority of its history and had no known interest in re-uniting with the Concordat any way) while the majority of the AFFS is distracted by other more pressing issues. For bonus points, they enact war crimes that get the Roughriders unleashed against them, dispatch the Vendetta on a mission of genocide, and once the Suns is no longer pre-occupied pay the price.
The Federated Suns has never had any designs on the Concordat. The Taurians' fear has been and continues to be unfounded. So long as they leave the Suns alone, the Suns ignoress them. Taurian paranoia, however, constantly gets them smacked down.
1. Blind arrogance and failure to conduct diplomacy with neighbours.
2. Already addressed by Neufeld.
3. Retaliation of the invasion of the capital system by AFFS forces.
4. Yet they have constantly and even in the current timeline attack and take Taurian worlds. 65% the last time there was a major war and even between the current timeline and the 3130 they eat up 7 more TC worlds and smash it up so badly it only retains 14 out of the peak 57 they had during the 31st century. CC does eat a further 3 worlds at some point as well. So that clearly is rubbish.
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So, who should I believe, you or CGL?
Check FM: P. P. 47: "I've shown some of your top aides long-buried evidence that the navigation error may have been deliberate, to gauge Davion resolve." From Brenda Calderon.
A "navigational error" would effect one ship, not a squadron; every vessel has to calculate its own Jump co-ordinates. "Accidentally" jumping a WarShip squadron into a DMZ does not follow.
If it was an electrical issue, what are the odds that the squadron was in a region of space from which only Malagrotta was the only inhabited system in Jump range (Hint: Zero. Csomad was a Taurian world, is nearby, and there are at least two other United Hindu Collective worlds within range plus whatever settlements too small to make it onto the map were around)? Why, if you've arrived somewhere you were not meant to be (and have been informed of that fact) would you then approach the Suns' installation rather than the Taurian outpost? And why, after all that, would you then engage FSN units instead of heading out towards the Zenith/Nadir Jump points and being on your way?
No. Too many coincidences, too many opportunities for the Taurian squadron to leave peacefully if they had any intention of ever doing so. Occam's razor alone points to the most likely conclusion; Brenda's admission is hardly necessary.
1. Blind arrogance and failure to conduct diplomacy with neighbours.
IE, their fault.
2. Already addressed by Neufeld.
What the Concordat states publically differs from what it admits privately.
3. Retaliation of the invasion of the capital system by AFFS forces.
I can only assume you mean the arrival of the Urukhai, who were not in any way, shape or form AFFS forces. The Suns, in fact, had either cut them loose or actively exiled them as a punitive measure for their dereliction during the FedCom Civil War, yet the Taurians, as ever, leapt to their own conclusions. The Suns had not conducted any form of attack on the Concordat, being somewhat busy with that whole FedCom Civil War thing. Meanwhile, the Concordat decides to strike out on their own.
4. Yet they have constantly and even in the current timeline attack and take Taurian worlds. 65% the last time there was a major war and even between the current timeline and the 3130 they eat up 7 more TC worlds and smash it up so badly it only retains 14 out of the peak 57 they had during the 31st century. CC does eat a further 3 worlds at some point as well. So that clearly is rubbish.
Those attacks were reprisals, not offensives. Had the Concordat not precipitated those conflicts, they would not have occurred. One would think that multiple centuries between flare-ups where the Suns happily ignored the Taurians up until they were attacked before beating the attacking forces back and claiming their worlds as spoils of war before going back to ignoring the Concordat for a few centuries would eventually work its way past pattern recognition, but apparently not.
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1. Indeed, davion fault.
2. Blatant whitewash.
3. Had been under the employ of the AFFS for who knows how long and had not had their status changed when they invaded. Invasion by a mercenary force employed by a state is the same as regular units.
4. All of them blatant davion aggression as already proved above.
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1. Indeed, davion fault.
Question: why should the Davions be blamed for the lack of diplomacy? As the saying goes, it takes two to tango, so the Taurians are just as much at fault.
The Suns maintained peaceful diplomatic relations with the Outworlds Alliance, and what was their other Periphery neighbor for a couple of centuries, the United Hindu Collective. They even managed peaceful diplomatic relations with the Terran Hegemony, despite sometimes having to fight the Hegemony, with worlds actually being conquered. Heck, they even managed some degree of diplomacy with the Combine and Capellans. The situation with the Taurians is unique, and the disparity is even more apparent given the negligible level of combat for the first decades to centuries, lacking invasions and intensive ground warfare, in sharp contrast to what could occur on the Hegemony, Capellan and Combine borders.
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1. Indeed, davion fault.
The Suns had no idea they were facing the Taurian Concordat. They were after Capellans and encountering what they thought were pirates, not helped by the Taurians then acting like pirates. The Suns had enough enemies already and were only in pursuit of Capellan forces any way, so the Concordat had ample opportunity to correct their mis-understanding and open some kind of diplomatic relations with the Suns. Instead, they went on the offensive.
2. Blatant whitewash.
Or, you know, what the books actually say. Surprisingly enough, the Concordat acted in this instance the way it always does; convince itself that the Suns is on the verge of an all-out offensive and attacking the Suns out of rampant paranoia.
3. Had been under the employ of the AFFS for who knows how long and had not had their status changed when they invaded. Invasion by a mercenary force employed by a state is the same as regular units.
And they were not employed by the Suns. Their status had very definitely been changed; after the rest of the Urukhai had thrown in with Duke Sandoval's own ill-fated assualt on the Combine, the rest of the unit had been dismissed. One would think that with the amount of time and effort the Concordat spends watching the Suns they would be aware of that; even if they were not, a cursory check with MRBC databases and listening to the Urukhai's communiques- especially the bit about having been kicked to the curb by the Suns and wanting a new employer- would be enough to correct that.
4. All of them blatant davion aggression as already proved above.
Considering that every single one of them was precipitated by the Taurians blindsiding the blissfully unaware and entirely disinterested Suns... no, not really.
If you walk up to a big, beefy guy and break a bottle over the back of his head, you lose the right to complain if he turns around and decks you.
Particularly when said beefy guy has no notion of or interest in your existence.
Especially when you keep attacking him unawares and having the tar beaten out of you in reprisal for making the first attack.
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And they were not employed by the Suns. Their status had very definitely been changed; after the rest of the Urukhai had thrown in with Duke Sandoval's own ill-fated assualt on the Combine, the rest of the unit had been dismissed. One would think that with the amount of time and effort the Concordat spends watching the Suns they would be aware of that; even if they were not, a cursory check with MRBC databases and listening to the Urukhai's communiques- especially the bit about having been kicked to the curb by the Suns and wanting a new employer- would be enough to correct that.
How much time passed between their dismissal and their arrival in the Suns? The information of their dismissal may simply not not have propagated through the databases. There was this little FedCom Civil War going on at the time....
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FCCWSB says that Shraplen had been told why the Urukhai were there but the Taurians opened fire anyway. So either he didn't pass the message along or his paranoia made him think they were lying.
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More interesting for me is how the newly reclaimed Taurian worlds feel about how their Taurian brethren reclaimed them. First using nukes on Taurian planets and cities, killing millions of people descended from Taurian citizens and then being held hostage (under nuclear threat) by their Taurian "liberators" to prevent the FedSuns from reclaiming them.
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"Welcome back to the Concordat, loyal sons of Taurus! Your centuries of oppression at the hands of the Davionist aggressor are over! Rejoice and be free!"
"Who are you and why did you nuke us?"
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"Welcome back to the Concordat, loyal sons of Taurus! Your centuries of oppression at the hands of the Davionist aggressor are over! Rejoice and be free!"
"Who are you and why did you nuke us?"
You left out:
"Please let us know if any Feddie troops enter your city so that we can blow you up with a nuclear device. Thank you."
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I am not sure if that statement is throwing gas on magnesium or painting napalm on dynamite.
Btw, when did the TC quit buying Asterion suits from the CapCon?
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WShen they started making them for themselves, perhaps
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And a slightly more useful answer...
Combat Equipment gives the Trinity series a prototype date of 3065 and a production date of 3066. Judging by HB:MPS, the TauCon at least started manufacturing the Asterion in 3067, given that it's shown on the product list for the MacLeod’s Land facility.
That timing does make a nonsense of the TRO entry, which says that TTI reverse-engineered the Asterion after "a few years", and that after the trio of Trinity designs were complete. Of course, that's assuming that HB:MPS isn't at fault.
Given the apparent discrepancy, it's worthwhile asking TPTB.
EDIT: And while writing the question for TPTB, I just noted that HB:MPS has Pinard Protectorates Ltd building the Asterion, not TTI, so another possible discrepancy.
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Well, Pinard MacLeod's does eventually get wiped out in one of the Roughrider rampages, but i forgot the year of that, so perhaps TTI picked its production up.
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The Roughriders weren't allowed to leave the Suns for three years after the Bromhead Massacre, and even then they struck Midale first. H: MPS pre-dates that by the same three years.
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It's possible that TTI were the company that did the reverse-engineering work, but then handed over actual manufacturing to Pinard, which would at least avoid the need to amend either TRO3075 or HB: MPS with respect to that issue. Although, given that TRO3075 is presumably due for an update at some point, it may be on the block for errata such as this issue may be.
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I think the fluff is pretty clear that the Mgistracy is the most Hippocratic of all the nations.
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I think the fluff is pretty clear that the Mgistracy is the most Hippocratic of all the nations.
As I recall, best medicine in the Periphery, no?
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I think the fluff is pretty clear that the Mgistracy is the most Hippocratic of all the nations.
They supposedly have medicinal skills that rival the NAIS at it's height and the clans...rumours they get a little creative however...
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The whole crumbling of the Concordat into microrealms made me sad, and it sorta created an aversion to the darkages in general.
Does anyone else sympathize with my predicament, or is there some hidden hope of a re-unified and gloriously paranoid Concordant giving the davions a few >.>
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I have hope of the Protectorate reunifying the Concordat and reforming the nation into the ideals its founders wished for as well as making peace with the Suns and fighting the real enemy.
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I have always been a fan of the TC and I believe what happened was inevitable, the Jihad was probably the only time it would turn out the way it did. TC citizens always seemed to fall with in to camps, those who feared the FS/FC(some believed there own propaganda) and those who didn't really care just wanted to start new colonies; I think most citizens had a bit of both in them. I believe that the TC was headed for a civil war at some point in the future, as far as what was best for the TC I believe that was probably the best way for things to turn out for them, at least they got to mess up the FS and didn't go total war on themselves (yet).
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The Davionist in me agrees with ARR's wishes, but my inner Battletech fan hopes that won't happen and the Suns will have two paranoïd and mutually antagonistic Concordats to contend with . More chances to blast stuff! >:D
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Foxbat is (hopefully) right.
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About this rejoining . . . is the rump TC still a part of the Trinity Alliance? Does that little agreement even last into the Dark Ages?
If it did . . . it might be difficult for the Protectorate to subordinate the rump TC, since it would be contrary to the Cappies' interests. The MoC, CapCon, and rump TC vs the Protectorate?
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The whole crumbling of the Concordat into microrealms made me sad, and it sorta created an aversion to the darkages in general.
Does anyone else sympathize with my predicament, or is there some hidden hope of a reunified and gloriously paranoid Concordant giving the Davion's a few >.>
No. Personally I dislike the Concordat, it's a failed state as of the Dark Age, at least in comparison to the past.
But even ignoring my personal taste regarding that, I think it's poorly managed government is reaping what it sewed. It had it's heyday before the Starleague, when it was as powerful as any Great House. All empires eventually fall. The Concordat's purpose has become twisted, rather than seeing a great future for it's people, all it sees is a threat from a nation that has mostly ignored except when under attack it for over 500 years. Poor leadership, treacherous allies, and disastrous military campaigns...it outlived the Star League for what that's worth.
The Calderon Protectorate is the true descendant of the Taurian Concordat's goals and positive future IMO. It's not just about fearing/hating the FedSuns. The only way for the Taurians to come back as a powerful periphery state would be for the Calderon Protectorate to take over them I think.
I do hope that this is not considered trolling, as in the past, my negative states regarding the TC have occasionally been taken personally by some fans of that nation. Nothing could be further from the truth. My dislike of the TC and view on it's viability as a nation have NOTHING to do with anyone one this board. I look at the nations in battletech as empires that can be studied. Even though I think the TC is a failure, I do find it fascinating.
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I guess i'm ok with what ever happens so long as a sec of the TC uses pretty flashlights to battle the separatists (cp) while a descendant of the Usurper plots to take over both from within
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Ah, TC mourning for the Glory That Was...I'd like to see all the Periphery nations become significant stumbling blocks for their respectively placed Great Houses. More combat and creative innovation. O0
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While a little part of me laughs (and laughs) at the TC's post-Jihad situation, I agree with the sentiments above. What's happened there is the result of the TC reaping what it sowed. Centuries of unreasonable paranoia set it up for the fall, one that was inevitable regardless of who was calling the shots. Sooner or later, something would have set them off, resulting in a self-destructive frenzy.
Sun Tzu knew that and played the Taurians like a pro. Unfortunately, the Word played them better.
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The Davionist in me agrees with ARR's wishes, but my inner Battletech fan hopes that won't happen and the Suns will have two paranoïd and mutually antagonistic Concordats to contend with . More chances to blast stuff! >:D
We've been one of the major sources running arms and supplies into the Protectorate. It's hard to get them to become antagonistic. They even up and left the Taurian assault into the Suns during the Jihad in protest of the their atrocities.
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I have a friend that is going to be playing in a game with me and she wants to be from the TC, can someone list Five things she MUST know to be a taurian?
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1. Davions are evil, and everything is their fault
2. Other Inner Sphere Houses are only slightly less evil, even the Capellans have screwed them over (more than once!)
3. Space forces are good
4. Nukes are gooder, screw everybody elses' opinion
5. Remember the Pleiades!
Historically, despite the attraction to naval (space) forces, the TDF didn't have the strongest aerospace corps (Per 1st, Per 2nd, FM:P), and when they finally got advanced technology they initially concetrated more up upgrading their fighters' defensive capabilties over offensive, together with slowly increasing their average weight class (FM:P).
The 'Mech force has historically been slanted more to light to medium designs, going all the way back to the original Periphery book (Per 1st, Per 2nd, FM:P - the latter suggests more mediums than lights), but recently they've been adding more heavies (FM: P).
The TDF concentrated more on upgrading their armor corps over their 'Mech corps due to the lower cost. They are oriented towards light to heavy designs and favor hovercraft. (FM:P)
They can build their own Battle Armor. Maybe not the best Battle Armor, but still their own. (TRO3075)
They field larger than average conventional infantry platoons. In BattleTech game terms this can make them very powerful with the right weaponry. (TM/FM:P)
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For mechs, (4 company) - 48 mechs per battalion. >:D
For vehicles 6 vehicles per lance. >:D >:D
For infantry, 30 per platoon. :)
For Aerospace, 16 to 24 per wing. :'(
You can be paranoid about anything you want. O0
You look to trying to build a better future - if you have a choice for better roads and schools or more mechs, you'd likely pick the infrastructure over half the time. The rest of the IS other than the OA would pick the mechs (they'd build aerospace) - in the clans you'd have a circle of something or other to have something else built, even if that doesn't make sense.
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Fear of the Davionist Aggressor will allways cloud your thoughts. Allways. As a nation, the TC has been afraid of them to the point of jumpy paranoia since their earliest days, and with very little actual good reason. Taurians see the FedSuns as deceptive, tricky and conniving if not downright evil, and definitely out to get them.
The TC has an "us against the universe" mindset. They are convinced that everyone is out to get them, and their interactions with other states is coloured by this belief. However, the biggest part of it is the fear that one day the Davionist Aggressor will come back to crush the Concordat, to finish off the job that they started in the Reunification War.
The Peladies are seen as "occupied territory", with the supposed belief that, even after five hundred years, its people will gladly throw off the yoke of Davionist Oppression to rejoin their Taurian brothers if given the opportunity. Liberation of the Peladies is a goal, even if it does mean nuking those planets into radioactive wastelands. Better Dead then Fed, and you're sure that the civillians of those worlds you just flash-fried would agree.
Finally, Dark-Age era fluff (written by Herb, no less) suggests that the TC, deep down, has a terrible inferiority complex, one that they struggle to overcome. The FedSuns is a bogeyman, one that can be used as an excuse or justification for anything.
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FM:3085 have a lot of info about the TC. lets you said that it can be resumed to this: :'(
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My Reactions to the FM3085 info:
- We already know that the war was lost, but it seems like the junta is on their way of loosing the peace.
- The secession of planets has started.
- Rebuilding of the civilian sector is being ignored in favor of the military.
- The education system has broken down, and teachers are fleeing the country.
I have to conclude that there is someone who is in a worse situation than the Cats.
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3030 CapCon turned and pointed at 3085 TC and added "Wow, you guys suck"
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<Rebuilding of the civilian sector is being ignored in favor of the military>
Hopefully, they'll design a mech worth having in the meantime.
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They did (see: Brahma).
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*wretches violently*
No, one that makes sense for the modern age.
Ugh. Just one would be nice. Two great designs might cause hope for Taurian fans again.
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In fairness, the Brahma is perfectly serviceable against RetroMechs.
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Indeed. The fluff for that mech suggests it was meant for Bigger Things. What came out is rather anemic.
On another note, how many centuries will it take for the TC to think its a threat to the FS? ;)
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On another note, how many centuries will it take for the TC to think its a threat to the FS? ;)
Depends on Caleb.
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Good answer. I'd forgotten about him.
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Ok guys, it seems there is a promise of better times for the Concordat in 3145.
First: They are making a new light mech (Cadaver) and a very good transport helo (Lamprey). Also, they are getting the Marians as trading partners, and thanks to that they are also making a new BA (Marauder).
Second: The best, there is a Doru in fron of the military junta that govern the Concordat. This guy, Kaff Doru seems to be a very good and patient leader, and he is bidding his time to become the full leader of the TC and create a succession for his daughter. In other front, it appears that the people both in the TC and CP are tired of the fighting are there is a movement for reunificacion, or at least, good relations. There is a important note that the current leader of the CP have a son. Posible reunification marriage in the future? Who knows.
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Well now...that IS an interesting development...
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Potentially very good news it'd be good to see the concordat get back together.
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The best news about the TC for a long time.
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It would great to see the Taurians get back together and stabilize their realm. Maybe even purge the Pirate's Haven cluster.
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It'd be good if it happens.
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Now see - clearing out the Pirate's Cluster: THAT's where some of those war crimes/HRV that META level insisted the TC do could have happened and the TC fans could have gotten behind...
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The Pleiades War was so devastating and horrific that it may make a lasting resolving of issues between the Concordat and Federation unlikely, but I'd like to see it.
Since the earliest Periphery sourcebooks, I've always seen the Magistracy as the real rival and perhaps even opponent of the Taurians.
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I just would not want to see someone besides a Calderon on the united TC throne. If it's temporary, that's OK, (every house has a coordinator McAllister whether that individual goes by that name or not), or even a hyphenated line. But the Calderon's are the TC to me. I blame the original Periphery in all of its flawed grandeur for this line of thought.
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I am no fan of the TC (or the periphery for that matter :) ) But i'd like to see the TC make a comeback.
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My perfect world for the 3145+ timeline: The TC reunites, takes advantage of the FedSuns weakness and recaptures a few of their former worlds (preferably the ones they lost post-Jihad, plus a few more), and then they stick it to the Confederation. Gain a couple worlds back, but mostly just smack them hard for their betrayal/turning away from the Trinity Alliance.
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Well, as hard as the Davions are taking it on the chin right now, the Return of lost Taurian worlds there is actually a possibility. Not a probability, but I could see the story branches that could make it happen.
Retaking worlds from the Capellan Confederation by force with the current balance of power going on? I don't see a story path in what is written that could explain that.
Getting some of them back in trade for something? I can see that. But not by force. Not at the current time.
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Maybe get the ones back that were lost to the Confederation in the 3120's in return for a Taurian invasion of the FedSun to help the CapCon invasion along once they start to run into some more serious resistance.
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From ER3145, it's clear that those worlds were taken by the Confederation by force, which is not going to make getting them back any easier.
The first step for a reunified TC is going to be rebuilding and consolidation, and repairing the damage the CP and TC did to each other over the decades. I'd also hope that any leaders would have the sense to remember what happened last time they tried to get worlds back from the FedSuns.
Sadly, I can only imagine the in-grained hatred of the Suns has increased after the Jihad.
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See IIRC, the CP has been working with Filtvelt . . . which is really friendly with their former fellows. I can see the wedding linking the realms, but where they go from there? Invade Fronc?
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They could always invade the Tortuga Dominions.
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Taking the Tortuga worlds would make sense, it reduces the number of pirate strongholds in the immediate vicinity and, at least in Tortuga Primes case, adds some industry to the Concordat.
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It's good to see the TC get some love. They've been one of my favorite factions for a while. I love an underdog.
I'd like to see a rise in nationalism resulting in an upgraded Talos or Toro. I just love those mechs. I always thought that, considering their pride, the TC would take full advantage of those two units as at least figure heads in propaganda vids.
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It's good to see the TC get some love. They've been one of my favorite factions for a while. I love an underdog.
I'd like to see a rise in nationalism resulting in an upgraded Talos or Toro. I just love those mechs. I always thought that, considering their pride, the TC would take full advantage of those two units as at least figure heads in propaganda vids.
For the Toro, just drop all Hunter production and re purpose the engines. ( that should have been done a long time ago, slow it down and go 4/6 with existing ICE).
The Talos, maybe some LGL variants, lose the LRM-5 for a SRM-4 as 4/6 can't control range well...
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Lol, I am waiting for the fluff to say the Dracs got the idea for the Panther from the Toro.
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Why would the Dracs slow it down to tactically a liability?
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Because the A-1 was 4/6 with a large laser?
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I can't see the TC/CP/any successor state doing more than periodically cleaning out the Tortuga Dominions. They have been 'independent' for so long there is probably a reason for that, if only because you KNOW where the pirates will likely to be. If you take the worlds, you force the Pirates into hiding where you don't know where they are, and now you have a bunch of generally undeveloped worlds to take care of far away from your own nation.
As to an alliance/unification with Filtvelt, that may be the only way Filtvelt will keep from being reabsorbed into the Federated Suns, but I don't see it happening. Filtvelt is (ostencibly) a democracy, while the TC/CP wasn't really. It was MORE democratic than many nations, but not fully. As such, dynastic marriage wouldn't work. Also, the Taurians don't seem to be fans, historically speaking, of marrying into other dynasties. I think that is probably due to Arianna's War.
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For the Talos, I was thinking more along the lines of light engines and MML-5's. Keep the auto cannon and cram the mech full of specialized ammunition. Change to endo-steel and add some machine guns.
For the Toro same kinda thing.
Both mechs could easily take a boost in speed.
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Lol, I am waiting for the fluff to say the Dracs got the idea for the Panther from the Toro.
Actually, the Panther was a SLDF design. It wasn't until the 1st SW that it turned into a DCMS cornerstone.
And I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that the Toro influenced the original PNT-8Z Panther, given the SLDF's history with the TC.
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The Panther was optioned for close-quarters combat and featured a Large Laser and SRM. Pretty much the opposite of the Toro, and not in the sense of being made to combat it in the sense of the Wolfhound or Wolf Trp being made to combat a specific opponent.
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The Panther was optioned for close-quarters combat and featured a Large Laser and SRM. Pretty much the opposite of the Toro, and not in the sense of being made to combat it in the sense of the Wolfhound or Wolf Trp being made to combat a specific opponent.
It wasn't "optioned" for CQB, that was it's original loadout and no other loadouts were mentioned. The PPC/SRM combo only came after the LLs lack of power was demonstrated in battle.
Given the way the fluff of TRO3025 reads, you could surmise that this battle was against Toros, since their loadout would negate the PNT's original loadout and their mobility could dictate the range so that their LRMs could inflict the required damage to properly soften up the PNT before finishing it with the LL. Run that same engagement with the standard PNT-9R and you'll see why the fluff determines that the PPC was needed. While the PPC is still outranged by LRMs, it's not as bad as it was with the LL and any PPC which hits is going to hurt, badly.
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Given the way the fluff of TRO3025 reads, you could surmise that this battle was against Toros...
That's unlikely in the extreme just looking at TRO3039 or TRO3025 (the relevant information is the same) and TRO3075. The Battle of St. John was in 2759. The Toro was nearly wiped out by the Reunification War. Only one is known to have survived the Star League. Not the Succession Wars, mind you, the Star League. Since St. John is in the Draconis Combine and FM SLDF suggests the battle was against a Rasalhagian group harboring political dissidents, that becomes even less likely.
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That's unlikely in the extreme just looking at TRO3039 or TRO3025 (the relevant information is the same) and TRO3075. The Battle of St. John was in 2759. The Toro was nearly wiped out by the Reunification War. Only one is known to have survived the Star League. Not the Succession Wars, mind you, the Star League. Since St. John is in the Draconis Combine and FM SLDF suggests the battle was against a Rasalhagian group harboring political dissidents, that becomes even less likely.
Hmm, didn't realize that St. John was in the Combine and not the Periphery. That pretty much settles it then, probably not a group of Toros that the original Panthers went up against. It makes me wonder now what it was that the original PNT went up against and discovered that a LL/ML/SRM6 combo wasn't heavy enough firepower.
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It wasn't "optioned" for CQB, that was it's original loadout and no other loadouts were mentioned. The PPC/SRM combo only came after the LLs lack of power was demonstrated in battle.
Given the way the fluff of TRO3025 reads, you could surmise that this battle was against Toros, since their loadout would negate the PNT's original loadout and their mobility could dictate the range so that their LRMs could inflict the required damage to properly soften up the PNT before finishing it with the LL. Run that same engagement with the standard PNT-9R and you'll see why the fluff determines that the PPC was needed. While the PPC is still outranged by LRMs, it's not as bad as it was with the LL and any PPC which hits is going to hurt, badly.
5/8/5 with almost full armour, 2 Heat Sinks, a Large Laser and an SRM-4 (the Large Laser being mentioned as the only armament change) fits quite well.
In any case, the Panther wasn't created until 2739, a point at which other designs like the Talon or Night Hawk were already around. Those would have had a field day with the Toro as it was, so creating something in response to a design that was almost wiped out a century prior seems a bit unlikely.
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Had a game on the table top yesterday, I took a medium lance from the Concordat Commandos against the same from the 22nd Avalon Hussars.
Result of the game left the Davions running and a salvageable Dervish-8D for me. Not a bad start to our campaign.
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I can't see the TC/CP/any successor state doing more than periodically cleaning out the Tortuga Dominions. They have been 'independent' for so long there is probably a reason for that, if only because you KNOW where the pirates will likely to be. If you take the worlds, you force the Pirates into hiding where you don't know where they are, and now you have a bunch of generally undeveloped worlds to take care of far away from your own nation.
As to an alliance/unification with Filtvelt, that may be the only way Filtvelt will keep from being reabsorbed into the Federated Suns, but I don't see it happening. Filtvelt is (ostencibly) a democracy, while the TC/CP wasn't really. It was MORE democratic than many nations, but not fully. As such, dynastic marriage wouldn't work. Also, the Taurians don't seem to be fans, historically speaking, of marrying into other dynasties. I think that is probably due to Arianna's War.
Oh... you take the place... long enough to figure out where the factories/cottage industry that supports the Pirates is... and loot it. Either burn it (in person or with nukes. Hostis humani generis afterall.) Or you take it for your own.
Oh and you steal their Jumpships. Pirates are a Jumpship delivery force afterall. If you can keep a rapid reaction force of a Jumpship + some Marines ready to go to any one of your worlds. Pirates Jump In, Start burning for planet, HPG message goes out. Your Jumpship jumps in... and then immediately boards and seizes the pirates. Pirates are stuck in system to be killed at your leisure.
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Okay, I did this for my favourite Clan already, but I figured I'd do it for the TDF too. These numbers are based off the RAT in FM: 3145 and the units listed in the deployment section of that book for the TDF. I will not state the actual percentages of various makes and models, as the RAT's are only a rough selection, not an exact sampling:
TDF Mech statistics, 3145
Light Mechs
% Omni 0.00%
% Std 100.00%
% Clan 9.85%
% 3050+ 85.87%
% SW 4.17%
% Retro 0.13%
Most common light mech = CVR-A1 Cadaver
Medium Mechs
% Omni 0.00%
% Std 100.00%
% Clan 16.67%
% 3050+ 71.98%
% SW 11.36%
% Retro 0.00%
Most common medium mech = STY-3Dr Starslayer AND PXH-4W Phoenix Hawk (Tied)
Heavy Mechs
% Omni 5.30%
% Std 94.70%
% Clan 5.30%
% 3050+ 94.71%
% SW 0.00%
% Retro 0.00%
Most common heavy mech = BRM-2B Brahma
Assault Mechs
% Omni 0.00%
% Std 100.00%
% Clan 0.00%
% 3050+ 87.64%
% SW 12.37%
% Retro 0.00%
Most common assault mech = AS7-K2 Atlas
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I'd love to do this for all the TDF unit types (ie: ASF, BA, etc), but alas we only know of the units assigned to their main-line battlemech forces, and not all of them have full descriptions as to which unit has an A, B, C, D, etc rating. As such, the data I generate is even less accurate than the Battlemech forces that I generated.
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Interesting tidbit that found while reading the Handbook: MPS. Looks like Cadiz, founded by far Lookers, was active in 2995/96, and it was viable. IIRC, this colony was incorporated into the concordat in the 3040´s, right? So, if Cadiz is an example, it could be full of colonies out there, viable colonies.
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I just noticed that Gordon's Armored Cavalry are now a House Regiment and not mercenaries anymore!
Impressed by this as they've been one of the TDF's better regiments since they signed on in the 3020's.
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From what I've read apparently so, congratulations but I think they are pretty low in resources and weakened his strength is in the 20% rating and "d"
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I just noticed that Gordon's Armored Cavalry are now a House Regiment and not mercenaries anymore!
Impressed by this as they've been one of the TDF's better regiments since they signed on in the 3020's.
Just a little surprising after how poorly they were treated by the TDF in the post-Jihad years.
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Just a little surprising after how poorly they were treated by the TDF in the post-Jihad years.
To be fair, post-Jihad, a unit that was employed by the Taurians is going to be short on options and shorter still on friends. By the 3080s, the Taurians were seen as a rouge state and the last of the surviving Blakeist allies, and as such, were without allies and none too popular (The Taurians should probably feel lucky that they're nowhere near Regulus...). Gordon's Armoured Cavalry probably had very little option but to stay with the Taurians.
At least by becoming house regulars they probably got themselves moved up a few places on the TDF's miserable supply chain and guaranteed better treatment.
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To be fair, post-Jihad, a unit that was employed by the Taurians is going to be short on options and shorter still on friends. By the 3080s, the Taurians were seen as a rouge state and the last of the surviving Blakeist allies, and as such, were without allies and none too popular (The Taurians should probably feel lucky that they're nowhere near Regulus...). Gordon's Armoured Cavalry probably had very little option but to stay with the Taurians.
At least by becoming house regulars they probably got themselves moved up a few places on the TDF's miserable supply chain and guaranteed better treatment.
I doubt distance would have stopped the Regulans if they felt the Taurians were harboring Blakist units.
At the end of the Jihad the relationship between the TDF and the GAC was strained to say the least with GAC rumoured to be looking for greener pastures. With numerous worlds either seceding from the TC or on the verge of seceding and the leadership doing little to improve the situation the TC had all appearances of being a state on the verge of collapse.
While they do have a questionable reputation (with at least two rogue operations), I don't believe the GAC were directly tied to any instances of the TDF using WMDs or to any war crimes so they should have been able to get some offers. Even their rogue operations could be excused given the lack of support given them by the TDF.
As far as moving up a few places in the TDF's supply chain, they are still likely to remain at the bottle of the supply chain (given their mercenary origins and their poor reputation within the TDF) and a larger percentage of nothing is still nothing.
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I doubt distance would have stopped the Regulans if they felt the Taurians were harboring Blakist units.
At the end of the Jihad the relationship between the TDF and the GAC was strained to say the least with GAC rumoured to be looking for greener pastures. With numerous worlds either seceding from the TC or on the verge of seceding and the leadership doing little to improve the situation the TC had all appearances of being a state on the verge of collapse.
While they do have a questionable reputation (with at least two rogue operations), I don't believe the GAC were directly tied to any instances of the TDF using WMDs or to any war crimes so they should have been able to get some offers. Even their rogue operations could be excused given the lack of support given them by the TDF.
As far as moving up a few places in the TDF's supply chain, they are still likely to remain at the bottle of the supply chain (given their mercenary origins and their poor reputation within the TDF) and a larger percentage of nothing is still nothing.
While I'm not saying that GAC would be wanted for specific crimes, it's more of a "guilt by association" thing. They worked for the Taurians, the Taurians were allied with the Word, the Taurians did horrible things to people during the Jihad thus it all comes back on GAC. And so, even if all they did in the Jihad was build orphanages and rescue kittens from trees, they're still associated with the Bad Guys.
As such, even if they did want to leave the TC's employ - and I wouldn't blame them at all - they might not have had many options or anyone willing to take them on. Working for the TDF may have sucked, but at the same time it's better then nothing.
Edit: On a re-read, the TDF bought out GAC in 3126, so it's less that they joined the Taurians by choice and more likely they were at a "no better options" stage.
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Maybe the TDF took a page out of the DCMS company store book?
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Far more interesting is the favoritism shown by the 1st Taurian Lancers towards the Federated Suns during the recent conflict. Allowing FS supply convoys to pass unmolested through their area of operation? Only a few decades (maybe even only a few years) prior they would have shot them down without hesitation.
Also of note is that both the Taurian Concordat and the Calderon Protectorate appear to be headed towards reconciliation (maybe even reunification?).
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The Cappies invaded the TC and took a number of worlds from them at some stage. While not openly supporting the FS, I can see why the Taurian leadership might want to, at least, not hinder them. If the CapCon are busy with the AFFS then it means they're not invading somebody else.
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Far more interesting is the favoritism shown by the 1st Taurian Lancers towards the Federated Suns during the recent conflict. Allowing FS supply convoys to pass unmolested through their area of operation? Only a few decades (maybe even only a few years) prior they would have shot them down without hesitation.
Also of note is that both the Taurian Concordat and the Calderon Protectorate appear to be headed towards reconciliation (maybe even reunification?).
IIRC, the part about the 1st Taurian Lancers is more about the free choice of their commander than a state desition. But the other part, plus the influence the FS (and RoTS) seems to have, or had, over the CP, make me have some wild ideas. Who would benefit from an unified Taurian Concordat? Not the Crapellans, at least.
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Are there any Taurian Regimental userbars on here? I thought there were but can't find them.
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Does anyone know what the Calderon Protectorate colours are? Or barring that, VI Corps? I'm about to start painting up some 'Mechs and tanks and want to make them from the true Taurian nation.
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1st Taurian Pride (http://camospecs.com/Unit.asp?ID=649), and the 2nd Taurian Pride (http://camospecs.com/Unit.asp?ID=622).
You filthy traitor. :P
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1st Taurian Pride (http://camospecs.com/Unit.asp?ID=649), and the 2nd Taurian Pride (http://camospecs.com/Unit.asp?ID=622).
You filthy traitor. :P
I may have left the Concordate but at least I haven't betrayed it's ideals! :D
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We didn't leave the Concordat.
The Concordat left us...
}:)
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1st Taurian Pride (http://camospecs.com/Unit.asp?ID=649), and the 2nd Taurian Pride (http://camospecs.com/Unit.asp?ID=622).
You filthy traitor. :P
He's no traitor. At least he follows a true Calderon and not an Usurper
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You mean the illegitimate leader who illegally seized control of a group of worlds from the legitimately appointed leader of the Taurian Concordat and then succeeded them from the nation without any legal grounds to do so?
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You mean the illegitimate leader who illegally seized control of a group of worlds from the legitimately appointed leader of the Taurian Concordat and then succeeded them from the nation without any legal grounds to do so?
Yeah that'll be the one.
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I may have left the Concordate but at least I haven't betrayed it's ideals! :D
A true Taurian goes down with his ship. He doesn't sneak out the back after looting the liquor cabinent. :P
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A True Taurian stands for Taurian ideals, wherever they lead...
8)
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A true Taurian goes down with his ship. He doesn't sneak out the back after looting the liquor cabinent. :P
They didn't get at the liquor cabinet. At best they got at the beer cooler. :D
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I was flipping through the core books and found something interesting in the production and founding years.
Taurus 2253
Concordat 2335
Griffin BattleMech 2534
Lightning Fighter 2489
Winchester WarShip 2364
Now we know why the Griffin wasn't built until the 2500s...The BattleMech was a late invention.
The Winchester was built a short thirty years after the formation of the Taurian Concordat. And only 111 years after the colonization of Taurus. Considering they were colonized by a single fleet founded by a single mega fortune, that is a very impressive time to get full scale WarShip production online.
We don't know how long it took them to build non-FTL spaceships, but we do have a date for AeroSpace Fighters.
2489. Over a century after they were building WarShips.
Wait. What?
That doesn't make sense. Why would they build WarShips before fighters? This is when they were purposefully acting like a hole in space and not trading with other people after all.
So...is the 2489 time point a typo? Or is it accurate?
And if it is accurate, what did they build BEFORE they built the Lightning? Note that the Winchester has fighter bays, so the answer is seemingly not that they used small craft in their place. And they weren't buying them from anybody at the time. It is possible the sent forces to STEAL them, but that would endanger the hole in space they were trying to be. It is also possible that they brought every ASF they would ever use from 2253 to 2489 with them on the initial colonization trip. But that seems doubtful.
So in my mind that leaves two options. Date typo. Or they built something that acted like an ASF and fit in an ASF bay but is not recognizable as an ASF by modern terms.
What do you think?
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I'd say that the date is correct, given how thorough the fact checkers are now.
That doesn't fix the problem, though it does make it more interesting. Given the Winchester's focus on speed over armor, I wonder if the TC would have done the same thing with their first fighter?
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Keep in mind that modern aerospace fighters were a late blossoming technology. The Federated Suns for instance produced their first primitive aerospace fighter (Centurion 1A) in 2430. The earliest "modern" fighter that I can find for the Federated Suns is the Centurion 1D which debuts in 2473. The earliest "modern" aerospace fighter that the MUL seems to have is the TFN-2A Typhoon which debuts in 2461.
So while 2489 seems like a really late introduction date, its not really that far off from what we're seeing with other factions.
As for the Winchester, it was released in a product that was made before all the dates and what not were sorted out, so its entirely possible that it was given fighter bays without anyone ever having given a thought to the date (it certainly wouldn't be the first time in that product such a thing had happened).
Heck, maybe the real mystery is why it took from 2314 (the first primitive aerospace fighter listed in the MUL) until 2461 (the first non-primitive listed in the MUL) for the technology to advance from Primitive to Modern.
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The Winchester was built a short thirty years after the formation of the Taurian Concordat. And only 111 years after the colonization of Taurus. Considering they were colonized by a single fleet founded by a single mega fortune, that is a very impressive time to get full scale WarShip production online.
That's not completely accurate- the formation of the Concordat in 2335 was more of a reorganization then anything else. By 2335 the Taurian Homeworlds (as they were then know) included 18 worlds (6 in Flannigans Nebula and 12 other systems) . Added to this was numerous refugees from the IS who were fleeing further into the periphery (per periphery 1e by 2350 the Concordat had a population of over 1 billion people). So the Concordat is really more then just the Calderon Expedition.
2489. Over a century after they were building WarShips.
Wait. What?
That doesn't make sense. Why would they build WarShips before fighters? This is when they were purposefully acting like a hole in space and not trading with other people after all.
The FS didn't build aerospace fighters until 2430- long after CC, DC, TH, LC and FWL. And long after their first warship in 2360. As to why - see below.
And if it is accurate, what did they build BEFORE they built the Lightning? Note that the Winchester has fighter bays, so the answer is seemingly not that they used small craft in their place. And they weren't buying them from anybody at the time. It is possible the sent forces to STEAL them, but that would endanger the hole in space they were trying to be. It is also possible that they brought every ASF they would ever use from 2253 to 2489 with them on the initial colonization trip. But that seems doubtful.
They were probably building dedicated space fighters and planet based fighters. The "innovation" of the aerospace fighter was a fighter that could operate in both the atmosphere and outerspace. The biggest use for these types of fighters is during planetary invasions, before you secured a ground base to operate fighters from. Aerospace fighters could launch from a dropship or warship, enter the atmosphere and provide cover for the ground forces. The one thing the TC was not doing at this time was launching planetary assaults against anyone. Yes they fought some skirmishes against the FS and the CC but the impression from Periphery 1e is that these actions were mainly naval actions or defensive in nature. So most likely the TC did not prioritize an aerospace fighter as they saw little need for it, as dedicated space fighters and conventional fighters filled the needs.
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Heck, maybe the real mystery is why it took from 2314 (the first primitive aerospace fighter listed in the MUL) until 2461 (the first non-primitive listed in the MUL) for the technology to advance from Primitive to Modern.
Because this is the game of big stompy robots and not space/fighter combat? Look at warship technology - almost every major technology is introduced by 2430 and the appearance of the Farrgut class BB- the only new tech the TH/SL introduced after that are the LF battery (no later then 2531 and the Avatar class) and Lamellor Ferro Carbide (no later then the Texas class in 2618)
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I thought the current explanation is that they used primitive shuttlecraft type vehicles prior to the invention of the modern Aerospace fighter? The engines for those are at least built similarly to warship engines, if slightly heavier for their size. Mind you this does introduce a few other problems from a design standpoint. Do you then consider the Winchesters at the time to be outfitted with standard shuttlecraft bays(200T apiece) or do you limit the bays to a smaller/lesser tonnage but one more consistent with what would become standard Aerospace fighter bays(150T).
Also I just take those dates with a grain of salt. While I don't contest the Winchester as the first warship, we now know that the Taurian Toro(2481) and Talos(2532) both predate that Griffin 2534 date. That's even assuming they produced the Griffin at all. As I understood it "Star League designs" only started being built in the TC post RW. If the Taurians were already building Griffins(licensed from Earthwerks in Keystone, FWL, another hurdle I won't even go into) at this time, you'd think it would appear in the RAT's for the Reunification War. Checking.. nope.
RW RAT's specify the most common medium mechs most likely to appear in Taurian units of the time. It has the Dervish(ostensibly commissioned by LC but produced in Achernar, TH), the Shadowhawk(Lang Industries, Caph, TH), the Wolverine(Kallon Industries, Nanking, TH) and the Gladiator(the modern 4R version by Merryweather Industries 2490 - TC must have scooped up a huge chunk of the completed first and unfinished second production runs) alongside the native Talos. No Griffins.
Aerospace RAT's for the RW do show the Lightning, though not with the sort of frequency to suggest they were being produced locally (i.e. not more common than other designs). Except for the minor problem of the modern G15 variant not entering production until 2511. But fear not, the original G14 model did enter production with the Capellans in 2469, plenty of time for the Taurians to capture one and reverse-engineer it. I'd wonder why they didn't develop their own homegrown design, particularly since I don't see them negotiating with the Capellans at this point for a license. It's not as if their technology base didn't have what it takes to develop one, the Canopians were afterall able to put the Dragonfly into production, but I'd just be nitpicking at this point.
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Remember that RATs are nothing more than a tool to provide some faction flavor during unit selection, and in no way should they ever be taken to suggest whether a design is common or not, or whether it is produced locally or imported.
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So despite having been manufacturing the Griffin for some four decades, they're still not likely to appear in a randomly generated Taurian unit of the era.
That makes perfect sense.
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So despite having been manufacturing the Griffin for some four decades, they're still not likely to appear in a randomly generated Taurian unit of the era.
That makes perfect sense.
The random allocation table for medium mechs in the reunification war book has precisely six slots, and two of those are the native built Talos. There's simply no room for every possible option.
Further, the current version of Tech Manual lists the Toro as the first taurian mech and doesn't mention the Griffin at all. There is no reason to assume that the pre-errata version has any validity.
Either way, the random allocation tables aren't considered an expression of availability because there are limited slots and very frequently a lot of new toys to fill them. I assume in this case that priority goes to the exciting new designs rather than the old ones everybody's already seen.
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No, of course there's no room for every possible option. And of course new toys to play with would get priority, but then again a third of the options on the RAT are classic 3025 designs, one of them unseen.
Any one of those, and maybe even the Gladiator(supposedly unpopular enough that the second production run was uncompleted) could be replaced with the Griffin just for consistency's sake.
But scratch that. Like I said, I don't believe Griffins were introduced into the Taurian industrial base until after the RW anyway.
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So this is kind of a stupid question, but I'm rusty on my Jihad/Post Jihad Periphery info. How BADLY were the Taurians mauled in all this? I am very fond of our brave bovine explorers.
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Quite badly. Pre-Jihad, they had 9 `Mech regiments or so, and by 3085, that number was a under 7 regiments. With the asteroid and the Roughriders throwing around nukes, several factories were completely destroyed, including TTI on Taurus, which was a major producer of `Mechs, fighters and DropShips.
They also lost something like 15 worlds when the FedSuns finally stopped focusing on the Blakists. Half of them were worlds the Taurians had taken, and half were Taurian worlds. That doesn't even count the worlds that went independent. I think maybe they wind up 5+ planets below what they were in 3067.
FM:3085 also points to their economies being in shambles, which is exacerbated by the military ruling junta not really knowing how to handle the civilian sector.
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Added to this, those regiments are averaging 50% odd strength in 3085. Besides industrial damage, their training infrastructure is also in ruins and their supply chain is barely functional, which is slowing the pace of rebuilding even further. By 3085, they were still producing both intro-tech and retro-tech 'Mechs for their units.
...and it will only get worse. By 3145, the TDF had managed to work its way back up to its 3085 strength
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According to FM3145, the TDF was down to 3 regiments worth of Mechs by 3127 and the fall of Marshal Urratia, but recovered to 8 by the time of the FM. It's also noteworthy that they've ended up in conflict with the CapCon and MoC, so the old alliance of convenience is definitely over. The CapCon currently hold a number of ex-Taurian worlds and show no sign of peacefully giving them up. The Taurians have also been fighting with the Fronc Reaches and the long-standing problem of pirates, so their list of foes is longer than ever.
The secession of Atreus Prime and its subsequent annexation of neighboring Mithron is what forced Urratia from power and led to the military government ruled by Marshal (now Protector) Doru, which combined with the secession of worlds to the Calderon Protectorate, other defections and the losses to the FedSuns and CapCon, leaves them with just 21 major worlds in 3145, plus the Pleiades. Some of those worlds that had previously been ruled by the Suns still see the Taurians as foreign invaders, even those that had been historically Taurian. On the positive side, there is hope of a reconciliation with the Protectorate.
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There is a positive in all this, how can things get any worse.
The only way is up.
I hope I haven't jinxed the bulls.
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So this is kind of a stupid question, but I'm rusty on my Jihad/Post Jihad Periphery info. How BADLY were the Taurians mauled in all this? I am very fond of our brave bovine explorers.
According to my research, the Roughriders annihilated three TDF line units, shattered a pirate gang masquerading as a Taurain unit, mauled two TDF-employed mercenary units, suborned a third mercenary unit, and shredded TDF militia units all along the Taurian front. That doesn't include the damage they inflicted on Taurian guerrilla groups and the damage they did to the Taurian military industrial sector.
In short, the Roughriders extracted a large chunk of flesh from the Taurian hide......
Craig
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There is a positive in all this, how can things get any worse.
The only way is up.
I hope I haven't jinxed the bulls.
The Capellans decide to secure their flank by invading?
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The Capellans decide to secure their flank by invading?
Pretty much. At this point, the CCAF would devour the TDF without a thought
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Pretty much. At this point, the CCAF would devour the TDF without a thought
Well given their luck they would have to think about how few regiments to send (as opposed to how many :D).
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This is assuming the Davions would just sit by and let the Caps effectively encircle their entire rimward border.
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*looks at the 3145 map*
The Suns haven't been doing very well at preventing the Capellans from running rampant, and with the Kuritans on the other flank, the cupboard is going to be a little bare.
I doubt that the Capellans would want to invest the forces as they already have to reinforce their grip on the worlds captured in their Chesterton and New Syrtis campaigns, plus deal with the Sirdar/Mandaree salient.
While relatively weak themselves, the Taurians probably have enough forces given the small size of their state that they'd make any invasion too costly, especially given their calm and reasonable nature. Of course, an analogy could be made to the Capellans themselves at the end of the 3rd SW and look what happened to them, but with so few worlds any substantial invasion of the Concordat would effectively kill the faction and I don't see that happening.
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A true Taurian goes down with his ship. He doesn't sneak out the back after looting the liquor cabinent. :P
I don't think so. A true Taurian loots the liquor cabinet, takes a slug of whiskey, and goes out the front door both guns a-blazing!
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As long as he uses the rest of the whiskey for molotov cocktails. ;D
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As long as he uses the rest of the whiskey for molotov cocktails. ;D
Noooooooo!
You can't use/waste Whisky like that, use Vodka instead.
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No sacrifice is too great!
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I'm not leaving the whiskey for the occupiers to drink, that's for sure....
Well, not ANY of the booze now that I think about it.
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Taurian Concordat
Home of that great martial arts known as...Drunken Mastery....
8)
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Drunken Mastery. A permanent form of spring break found only in the TC.
Deadly to all non taurian life forms. :D
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Wait, the Taurians are Team Boozohol now?
Sign me up!
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Wait, the Taurians are Team Boozohol now?
Sign me up!
Not really. There's nothing to support it at all.
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Wait, the Taurians are Team Boozohol now?
Sign me up!
Danger. There may be some joking and having fun involved. Avoid with all due caution if that fills you with kneejerk horror...
>:D
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Danger. There may be some joking and having fun involved. Avoid with all due caution if that fills you with kneejerk horror...
>:D
I have never joked or had fun on these forums ever. Big Stompy Robots on the Internet are Serious Business.
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Not really. There's nothing to support it at all.
More of a coffee drinking house really...
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You know that one guy who you once made fun of in high school and hasn't been able to let it go since? That's the Taurians
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I was thinking of one country I had visited when I wrote that.
Highly conservative and religious but behind closed doors the wildest parties that I have ever been to.
It made me think of the Taurians. :D
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One of the more memorable descriptions of the Taurians I've read in the official literature goes something like this...
They enjoy social gatherings where they drink and debate politics.
It is so widespread that it was written in sourcebooks as a defining characteristic of the Taurians at large.
They enjoy meeting in public, in places where you eat and drink, to debate political and historical issues...
I'm sure some of those discussions get...lively...;)
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Aspects of the Taurians remind me a lot of the College of William and Mary. Particularly the, "We're going to drink and argue politics for six hours" aspect of it.
There are a lot of things I enjoy about the Taurians, actually, including their tendency to make the worst possible decisions at any given time.
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Wait, the Taurians are Team Boozohol now?
Sign me up!
Sorry, the Roughriders took all the good hard liquor and left the rotgut........ [cheers]
Craig
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Sorry, the Roughriders took all the good hard liquor and left the rotgut........ [cheers]
Craig
Well they had to pay for the rebuilding somehow. ;D
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There are a lot of things I enjoy about the Taurians, actually, including their tendency to make the worst possible decisions at any given time.
They'd be the most boring faction around if not for their tendency to bite off more than they can chew.
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People who wish to use them as antagonists for a campaign designed around Inner Sphere factions do seem to prefer the Catalyst version of the Taurian Concordat. It is far more simple and allows them to paint the Taurians with a broad brush. This goes for most of the Peripheral realms that seem to have singular focuses and attributes now.
But for playing in a Periphery-based game, they and most of the other Peripheral realms were a lot more interesting back when FASA wrote them as generally competent full fledged nations with lots of competing interests working at cross purposes to each other. There was no singular focus of any of the realms back then, which allowed players to pick any of the focuses they wanted and play as that faction.
It is a question of focus. FASA spread out their focus a lot, making lots and lots of factions for people to play. If you wanted to play Davion, you could be anti-Kurita, anti-Liao, anti-Steiner, or a wealth of other options. For the Taurians, one could be anti-Davion, anti-Liao, pro-expansion, or a wealth of other options. Almost every faction had different tracks like this. Even the really "bad" pirate factions had good and bad aspects written in for people to play.
Catalyst appears to have gone the route of focusing more on the Inner Sphere and limiting resources spent on anybody not related to them. Therefore, most non-Spheroid nations are now written to show how they relate to the Inner Sphere, rather than written as full-fledged operational cultures of their own. You can still play all the aspects of Davion now, but the singular focus of the Catalyst Taurian is anti-Davion paranoia and a militant drive to fight them to the bitter end.
I'm sure there is a good business reason for this. Probably based on sales. I'd bet that stuff focused on the Periphery just doesn't sell as well as Inner Sphere stuff, so Catalyst is focusing on stuff that sells better. Which is good for Spheroid players, who are the majority of the player base, but not so good for those players that fell in love with non-Spheroid factions back in the day.
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I hope the Taurians become respectable again soon. Respectably powerful that is. Their fall in the Jihad was dramatic and heartbreaking for me. The Little Nation That Tried.
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It is a question of focus. FASA spread out their focus a lot, making lots and lots of factions for people to play. If you wanted to play Davion, you could be anti-Kurita, anti-Liao, anti-Steiner, or a wealth of other options. For the Taurians, one could be anti-Davion, anti-Liao, pro-expansion, or a wealth of other options. Almost every faction had different tracks like this. Even the really "bad" pirate factions had good and bad aspects written in for people to play.
Catalyst appears to have gone the route of focusing more on the Inner Sphere and limiting resources spent on anybody not related to them. Therefore, most non-Spheroid nations are now written to show how they relate to the Inner Sphere, rather than written as full-fledged operational cultures of their own. You can still play all the aspects of Davion now, but the singular focus of the Catalyst Taurian is anti-Davion paranoia and a militant drive to fight them to the bitter end.
I'm sure there is a good business reason for this. Probably based on sales. I'd bet that stuff focused on the Periphery just doesn't sell as well as Inner Sphere stuff, so Catalyst is focusing on stuff that sells better. Which is good for Spheroid players, who are the majority of the player base, but not so good for those players that fell in love with non-Spheroid factions back in the day.
O0
This can't be helped, as Geneva(the Republic) has the largest cheese factory in Battletech right now. Their omnipotent and omniscient SIS(and allies) paints their own brush on every faction in every post-Jihad sourcebook.
Compare with Games Workshop's recent trend(the Heresy series). Both franchises are currently jammed with Terran-based superpowers fielding all the best Wundertech to superboost their popularity.
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While the Concordat is arguably at its lowest ebb as of 3145, and while I would like to see more Periphery material published in future, I don't think it's fair to say that Catalyst has ignored the Periphery entirely.
Handbook: Major Periphery States makes a point of giving each nation's write-up its own perspective (since the assumption is that separate writers are assembling their reports from each state, as opposed to the more centralized approach taken with the House handbooks).
Historical: Reunification War may make for grim reading from a Taurian perspective, but it does offer as good a glimpse as we currently have on the pre-RW Concordat, and how it more than held its own when compared to the star-nations of the Inner Sphere. (And it's not like the editorial line taken with H:RW actually cheers on the conquest, far from it.) Although the Freedom War portion of Historical: Liberation of Terra I feels like something of an afterthought by comparison.
And when it comes to the Deep Periphery, ISP3 has pushed the known map further into the black than any of the old FASA material, introducing new DP factions (like the New Delphi Compact and the Axumite Providence) while adding details to others which had been shown as outlines only (such as the various Chainelane Isle sub-factions). I would still like to see more on the Hansa, but it seems their fate is tied into whatever plans may exist for the Imperio and the post-Reaving Homeworld Clans post-3090.
Plus, the alternate timeline in Empires Aflame is quite generous to the major Periphery states. The Rim Federation may not match the old Rim Worlds Republic, but it's a much larger and more active player than the likes of the Rim Collection. The Outworlds Pact has held up a lot better than the Prime-verse Outworlds Alliance, with no Snow Ravens around to usurp their sovereignty. And the Taurians and Canopians, each in a strong position prior to the merger in alt-3058, now stand together as the largest and arguably strongest Periphery state in EA, going so far as to take and hold New Syrtis (twice).
But to get back to the Prime timeline, there is still hope for the beginnings of a turnaround post-3145. While the glimpses of a new deal between the Taurian Concordat and the Calderon Protectorate may end up as red herrings, it may also end up as the key step towards a reunified Taurian state - one tempered by the Far Lookers' more collected vision of the human sphere and their preferred place within it.
Indeed, it would be a great irony if a reunion between Taurus and Erod's Escape led to a broader rapprochement with the Federated Suns (perhaps via the Filtvelt Coalition), if only to keep the CCAF (plus their MAF allies) and DCMS at bay.
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Catalyst got the TC more involved in the Battletech storyline/metaplot then they ever had been during the FASA era with the Jihad. Up until then, the TC had largely just "been there" and only really covered when there was a new Periphery-centric sourcebook.
After it's introduction in Periphery 1st Edition, the TC basically vanishes from the scene. It gets a couple of mentions in 20 Year Update, mostly to say that nothing interesting happened to it at all. Objective Raids moves its plot a tiny bit along to say that Thomas Calderon went pants on head paranoid, and then that's it. The next update to the TC comes in the fluff for the Maultiler in TRO3058 to discuss the coup that overthrew him. And that's the only mention of the TC in the TRO.
So for the first decade of FASA's writing, the only major update to the TC was a single page for one vehicle in a Tech Readout. Not a good start.
The next major update for the TC is in The Periphery Second ed, a year later. Not much has changed since the TRO3058 fluff, and this book does little to move the Concordat along in the story.
From there, the TC drops out of sight again until Field Manual Periphery in 2001. At this point, the death of Jeffery Calderon, the appointment of Graver Shraplen as Protector and the formation of the Trinity Alliance have all occurred, all being big story moments for the TC. And all of these happened off-screen between sourcebooks, with the TC having otherwise been largely overlooked by FASA. More time was devoted to the TC in Field Manual Capellan Confederation then anywhere else.
And that's the end of the FASA era, as FM:P was one of the last BT books they published (So much so that it comes in both FASA and FanPro editions).
The next big update for the TC is in Field Manual: Updates, published by FanPro. That includes the formation of the Calderon Protecotrate and the initial invasion of the Peladies. Again, these events happened off-screen during the Civil War, and got no real detailing in any form. If you missed FM:U, then you wouldn't even know what was going on.
However, Catalyst published Handbook: Major Periphery States in 2009, giving the most detailed write-up of the TC and the other major states since 1996, and in doing such devoted more space to the TC in the one book then FASA had in over a decade. Furthermore, HB:MPS goes into much more depth about the culture and peoples of the TC and other periphery nations then either of its predecessors, and as noted, has each section written from a Periphery perspective rather then an Inner Sphere one. So for the first time in 24 years, we've had a Periphery Sourcebook from a Periphery point of view. Again, something FASA never did.
Then we have the Jihad, sprawling over seven plot books (Not counting the Clan-Centric Wars of Reaving), eight if you want to include Masters and Minions. In each of these, the TC is a player in the Jihad, actively participating in the storyline as it happens, rather then the reader being notified of what occurred well after the fact (or in a single page of a TRO). The result is that the TC plays a bigger role in the Jihad then it ever did in any FASA-era plot, being an active participant rather then an "also ran" that gets updated whenever somebody thinks we need a Periphery book.
And that's before we consider the Historicals as well. Catalyst "filled in" eras that were previously largely left bare by FASA as they occured before the "start" of the story in 3025. The invasion of the TC and its role in the Reunification War is the largest single chunk of Historical: Reunification War, and as said, the book generally depicts the TC in a positive and sympathetic light. The two Liberation of Terra books also cover the TC in this era, massively building on material that was covered only very briefly by FASA in several scattered books across sixteen years.
So in short, Catalyst did more for the TC then FASA ever did.
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I want to go on record that Catalyst is largely responsible for me falling in love with the Periphery States, ESPECIALLY the Taurians.* Handbook: Major Periphery States became one of my favorite sourcebooks as soon as I got it.
*I almost typed that in as "Tourians." Guess who has been playing waaaaay too much Super Metroid?
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And none of what was just posted disagrees with what I said.
FASA tended to write about the Periphery factions as factions that were way out there and mostly uninvolved with the Inner Sphere and its wars.
Catalyst tends to write about how the Periphery factions interact with the Inner Sphere and get involved in Inner Sphere wars.
On a brief look through my FASA books I see the following ones that talked about the Periphery.
1986 - MechWarrior 1st. 1986
1988 - Periphery 1st was of course one of the first big seven full on source books about BattleTech in 3025.
1989 - 20 Year Update gave Periphery information up to 3049
1990 - TRO 3050 noted many designs still built in the Periphery.
1991 - MechWarrior 2nd.
1992 - Objective Raids updated Periphery to 3056 era
1993 - Merc Handbook 3055
1994 - MechWarrior Royalty and Rogues was placed entirely in the Periphery.
1995 - TRO 3058 focused on the Periphery with multiple new designs created or reverse engineered in the region.
1996 - Periphery 2nd full update of the first book to the 3059 era.
1996 - Explorer Corps
1997 - Field Manual Mercs
1998 - TRO 3060 also focused on new Periphery units.
1999 - MechWarrior 3rd
1999 - Operation Stilleto
1999 - Inner Sphere updated Periphery to 3062
2000 - MechWarrior Lostech
2000 - Operation Flashpoint
2000 - Shattered Sphere updated Periphery to 3063
2000 - Field Manual Periphery updated Periphery to 3064, the last FASA book published IIRC. Or at least one of the last.
This is a quick look at my collection and does not include short stories or novels placed in the Periphery. Basically though, every single year FASA published books that either focused on the Periphery or gave rules or information on how to play in the Periphery. And outside of the parts of the 20 Year Update that introduced the Andurien-Canopian-Capellan war, the Periphery was always focused on as those guys out there that don't have much to do with the Inner Sphere. And the Canopian involvement in that war was noted in the past tense with strong information that they weren't going to make that mistake again. Most of the information was about them making new stuff, colonizing new colonies, and spreading out away from the Inner Sphere. From the Inner Sphere perspective they were barbarians not worth bothering with. From the Periphery perspective they were the last bastions of civilization in the outer reaches working together to expand and rebuild from the deprivations caused by the fall of the Star League.
The large shift in FanPro and Catalyst Periphery strategy was to involve them very intimately in the Inner Sphere wars. Yes, this has resulted in more stuff written about them, but that doesn't please old Periphery fans. Because instead of acting as the last bastions of civilization in the outer reaches as they did under FASA, they are portrayed as the squabbling puppies jumping on the fringes of wars they used to be smart enough not to get involved in....
In short, most Periphery fans would be happy to continue getting snippets of information every year about how the Periphery realms continue to do little things in their areas of space, in the backs of sourcebooks aimed at the Inner Sphere. Most Periphery fans chose those factions because they didn't want to be involved in the same old Inner Sphere wars. Fighting pirates, defending new colonies, and doing stuff out on the outer reaches was what we wanted to do. Exploring new regions and stuff. Most Periphery fans aren't happy seeing lots and lots of information showing them jumping into old Inner Sphere wars they have no business in and getting gobsmacked.
But Catalyst seems to have chosen a path of focusing on the Inner Sphere and bringing all factions towards it to be involved in the wars there. I doubt we will see further information on the Homeworlds Clans until they are ready to be involved in the Inner Sphere for instance. Just like we aren't going to see much Periphery stuff that doesn't talk about their involvement with the Inner Sphere.
I think this is a solid business decision from their perspective. Most BattleTech players prefer the Inner Sphere. Focusing on publishing stuff that doesn't push that area is not as profitable as stuff focusing on the Inner Sphere. So they are pushing their resources in the ways that are most profitable. Sound business decision. And the people who like the Inner Sphere are very happy with that decision, as shown above. They enjoy reading lots and lots of fiction showing the Periphery fighting their favored factions and generally losing, or winning so badly that it might as well be losing. It pushes the Inner Sphere first mentality of "They'd be the most boring faction around if not for their tendency to bite off more than they can chew." As I said it is a very sound business decision to focus on the people who are going to make you the most money.
But to the minority of BattleTech fans who grew up reading and greatly enjoying FASA's treatment on the Periphery, the new FanPro/Catalyst approach simply isn't FUN.
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I'm minded of a discussion from Handbook: Major Periphery States, dated to the early Clan invasion era:
Here we thought we're the ones on the frontier - staking humanity's claim to the deeps - and all along we've been living in civilization. Kinda like thinking you're living on Lastpost and then waking up one morning to find you built your house on Kathil.
Of course, that very segment includes a counter-argument against this, but there is a broader point to be made: if their goals included escaping the influence of the Inner Sphere, the founders of the four "classic" major Periphery states didn't go out far enough. Given their respective locations close to the burgeoning Great Houses, it was inevitable that the various powers of the Inner Sphere would brush up against these smaller domains - and that, as the Reunification War amply demonstrated, it was still all too close to avoid notice once the Spheroids were so minded.
Unfortunately, the largest known Deep Periphery power (outside of the Clan Homeworlds) has been caught by its very presence in the coreward sector. But the rimward, anti-spinward, and spinward sectors remain free of Homeworld Clan interference, even if the largest Deep Periphery states in those sectors do not compare to the Hanseatic League in terms of size, capabilities, or regional influence.
For most of the ISP3 planets and powers, the most pressing dangers are domestic - what happens once the last Axumite JumpShip breaks down, when the next Upheaval breaks out within the Alexandrian Covenant, whether the New Delphi Compact ever finds a cure for the Curse... and whether or not such a cure might have unintended consequences for the NDCCS' attempts to patrol and protect the Compact's member worlds ffrom pirate predations.
While Interstellar Expeditions (the organization) does provide a window of exploration for those groups operating out of their various host planets, one coul argue that the only true way to escape the turmoil of the Inner Sphere is to take the plunge and head further out into the black... so long as you avoid heading into the coreward sector, at least.
However, if you choose to stay in the near Periphery, you'd either have to be both inoffensive enough to avoid foreign adventurism and lucky enough not to be in the way of anyone who'd go after you just for being there (or, in other words, be the Rim Collection); or be in a state large enough to be noticed (like the Magistracy of Canopus) and face tougher decisions on how best to deal with the cards you're dealt - and to handle those being held by your various neighours.
Also, it may be worth noting that not everyone in the "modern" Periphery buys in to the same narrative as those seen in the former Territorial States. The Marians, for one, aren't shy about carrying out their own conquests, and nor are they reluctant to subject Canopian and other captives to slavery. But from a gaming perspective, one could argue that they bring something different to the table, given how differently the Marian Legions are organized relative to Canopian or Taurian regiments.
(Technically, the Marians weren't the first Periphery state to be founded with less than modern ideals - Hector Worthington Rowe's Rim Worlds Republic came replete with helotry. But while those purported Platonian principles were phased out as the RWR matured, the Marians don't seem keen to discuss abolitionism any time soon.)
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You are very right in that the near Periphery realms didn't go far enough to fully escape the Inner Sphere. A united Inner Sphere could reach out and snatch them.
The people that founded the Canopian realm should have gone further out for instance if they wanted to REALLY get out of Dodge.
The Rim Worlds and the Taurians DID get out of Dodge though. For the tech they had when they left, they went as far as they could, light centuries beyond anybody else. Far outside any reasonable distance for the time. The Taurians so they could get away. The Rim Worlds so they could have a secure raiding base.
They both fell to the avarice of a united Terran alliance in the end though. But when that alliance fell, the Taurians and others managed to escape it again...
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What is this Taurian Concordant I keep reading about?
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What is this Taurian Concordant I keep reading about?
A very bovine like member of the Family Formicidae.
THANK YOU! I'LL BE HERE ALL WEEK! TRY THE VEAL!
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Wow...I actually made that mistake too....once...just once...but...dang...I WATCH for that one too...
:-[
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That's why I always say TC it's easier to spell and harder to make a mistake. ::)
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Going through the Taurian MUL, I came across an interesting find. Apparently Purifiers are on our list of Battle Armours. So I was wondering if it is a fluke or if in fact the Taurians fielded Purifiers.
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The Taurians were allied with the Word during the Jihad. It's possible that they could have sent them some Purifiers to help build up their Battle Atmout forces. BA was still a new thing for the Periphery in the 60s, so any imports would help build strength fast
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Going through the Taurian MUL, I came across an interesting find. Apparently Purifiers are on our list of Battle Armours. So I was wondering if it is a fluke or if in fact the Taurians fielded Purifiers.
They do but the numbers are distinctly limited. On the other hand, we know the RAF was using them as well and I believe even building them, so it's possible the Republic began exporting as well. At that point, the Taurians would have the ability to refurbish and replace suits lost to combat or wear and tear, supplementing their home-built Asterions.
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Do you think a single company of them would be too far fetched during the Jihad?
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Concentrated into a single formation? Yeah, I think so. If I remember correctly, that's 64 suits - probably a large percentage of their total Purifier numbers - in one relatively small formation as these things go. For the Taurians, mimetic armor would offer them capabilities they don't otherwise have. I think they'd probably break them out into platoons and hand them to key commands as a force multiplier to supplement more common designs like the Asterion and IS Standard.
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Well I play the Commandos, so you think I could justify a company of them? 8)
I am attaching them to some hover transports and planetlifters.
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Simple response.
Yes.
As long as something shows up on the RATs or in the MUL you can happily place them in a game.
A full company of ANY kind of suit or unit is a bit of a stretch. BattleTech in the Succession Wars and on is known for mixed units. So it would be easier to have some of them and some other stuff. It is MORE believable.
But a company of them could be explained if you wanted to put enough work into it. :)
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I've always liked the Purifier on an aesthetic/cool factor level, so I am totally okay with Taurus having access to a limited number of them.
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Post New Vandenburg Uprising is there any source that indicates that Taurus itself was damaged in the conflict?
Thanks!
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Well I play the Commandos, so you think I could justify a company of them? 8)
I am attaching them to some hover transports and planetlifters.
If any unit would have a concentration of them it would be the Commandos, I would have thought.
Oh and merry Christmas.
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And happy holidays to one and all
:)
wookie
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(...snip...)
In the end, that Taurian Concordat is one of the funnest factions in the game IMHO.
What do you think?
With Harebrained Schemes' BATTLETECH expected to be Launched next Summer, the Taurian Concordat is expected to be on the cusp of War with the Aurigan Coalition.
As such we'll have an entire BATTLETECH Solo-Campaign potentially involving the Concordat in a role as the Spoiler!
...so of course I incorporated a symbol of the Concordat into my forum Avatar! :)
Hopefully one of the six BATTLETECH Pre-defined Character Backstories will involve the Concordat.
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That would be cool. :)
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Arise from your slumber, Oh Mighty Bull!
Now, after doing some work for my Objective Raids 3150 proyect, i noticed a discrepancy between what the authors wrote in Field Manual 3145 and what i got from the diferent sources. As far as 3145, taking in count the books that exist post-3067 (including Battlecorps Milispec) and th MUL, the Taurian Concordat is producing quite the number of advanced units. Let do a quick review:
Stinger -5R & -5T
Wasp -3L & -7MAF
Locust -5V & -5T
Quasit Militiamech (-51T, -51M & -51P)
Cadaver -A1 & -T1
Clint -3-3T
Phoenix Hawk -4W
Shadow Hawk -7M
Griffin -4N
Ostroc -5C
Brahma -6A, -6B & -6T
Thunderbolt -5Sb & -9T
Archer -6W
Warhammer -6Rb, 10T (posibly a refit of the -9D?) & -11T
Marauder -2R
Maultier Hover APC (Std., BA & Fusion)
Cyrano (Std., ML & Plasma)
Lamprey VTOL
Seabuster Strike Fighter
Plainsman (Std., Streak, Scout & Sealed)
Prowler MTV
Seydlitz -Z4
Chippewa -W7T
Thunderbird -D50
TIG-40 Foxhound
Asterion Battle Armor
Marauder Battle Armor
Before some of you prepare the torch and pitchforks, i hace to clarify that the royals variants are based in the MUL listing (it show them as Taurian as far as the Jihad Era), and this small excerpt in the Milispec article of the Marauder -9M2:
Earlier upgrades are still common throughout the Inner Sphere and Periphery. The Taurian Concordat, in particular, is building as many as they can and shipping them to the Pleiades.
The thing that is weird to me is that while the TC appears to be able to produce all those new models, the Field Manual speaks of the TC beign forced to buy stuff from the Calderon Protectorate lines. So either the Taurian lines are modern, but small (or limited by resources cuts), or some writter just wanted to show the TC as beign worse than it really should be (by following what is listed in the official products).
What is your opinion?
PD: Looks like the Taurians are making, at the 3150 Era, a new J. Edgar version, the Kuritan. MUL show it as beign only avaible to the DC and TC.
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Only thing I can think of is a large number of lines shut down during the Republic era.
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"Has access to on MUL" does not mean "produces". The Taurians could be buying/importing a lot of it, or it could be remnants of older production runs or the like. The fact that their millitary was so badly shattered and took over fifteen years of relative inactivity to crawl back to the mess that it is in 3145 suggests that they have a severe lack of production.
So either they have a lot less lines then suggested, or those lines have very low rate prooduction
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We know that they are actively producing some advanced designs. And three of the royals (Thunderbolt, Warhammer, and Marauder) first reappeared on the MUL during the Jihad as exclusively Taurian designs (discounting clan relics). It's reasonable to assume they put them back into production.
That said, the fact that these mechs filter out to their neighbors (Marauder ends up on the mercenary, magistracy, and marian tables by the republic era, for example) suggests they're also selling them off at a prodigious rate.
Given how beaten up the Concordat got, doubtless they need the income brought in from exports as much or more than they need replacement machines.
Fundamentally, though, the Concordat is stuck with the same old discontinuity it's always had since the first periphery book, the wide range of mechs they're supposed to be producing doesn't jibe with the number of units they (as a periphery state) field. The notion that they sell a significant portion of their production or that their production is varied but rather limited is more of a band-aid than an explanation, but I'd advise not pealing it off and looking too closely. If you do, you might also start to wonder where Davion put all those valkyries they were supposed to build, or where those hundreds of thousands of wasps, stingers, locusts, and archers ended up.
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"Has access to on MUL" does not mean "produces". The Taurians could be buying/importing a lot of it, or it could be remnants of older production runs or the like. The fact that their millitary was so badly shattered and took over fifteen years of relative inactivity to crawl back to the mess that it is in 3145 suggests that they have a severe lack of production.
MUL sometimes can not be read clearly (see the Icarus II -2S and the MH for example). But in those cases is very clear. I will show you this comparision, the Thunderbolt -9T ( a know Taurian variant) and the Royal one.
(http://i.imgur.com/VACEYPl.jpg)
Unless the concordat is trading with the HW Clans or the Society (conspiracy time!), they are building or refitting their old lines to the -5Sb standard. Similar conclusions can be reached with the MAD-2R and the WHM-6Rb. All three are really simple conversions of the 3025 mechs, with items that we know the TC have the ability to produce, and that they do at that time.
So either they have a lot less lines then suggested, or those lines have very low rate prooduction
The number of lines can be a factor, or the production rate. Also they are having to sell mechs to the open market to recoup investments, and to help their failing economy. We see it in the Brahma (TRO:3085, page 88, in "Deployment"), Warhammer -11T (TRO:3085, page 258, in "Deployment"), the Marauder Batlle Armor (TRO 3145: Mercenaries, page 6) and probably in the case of the Cadaver -A1 (TRO 3145: Mercenaries, page 28, also made by the Raven Alliance, and marketed by the Sea Foxes).
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Unless the concordat is trading with the HW Clans or the Society (conspiracy time!), they are building or refitting their old lines to the -5Sb standard.
Or, as mentioned, they have a bunch sitting around, in a warehouse or in their forces.
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Or, as mentioned, they have a bunch sitting around, in a warehouse or in their forces.
Or making the mech....at least until some techs took some funny pills and decided to "experiment". XD
WHM-6Rb at Pinard.
TTI is building the WHM-10T/11T.
TDR-5Sb is being built at Pinard as well, at least until the TDR-9T.
And the Pinard PXH is the PXH-4W.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58040.msg1335634#msg1335634 (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58040.msg1335634#msg1335634)
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Looking for fleet strength of the taurin navy at the start of the first war. Thanks for tyhed help.
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Looking for fleet strength of the taurin navy at the start of the first war. Thanks for tyhed help.
In terms of warships? One vessel, the Concordat class Frigate TCS Parin. (As per First Succession War page 101)
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In terms of warships? One vessel, the Concordat class Frigate TCS Parin. (As per First Succession War page 101)
And IIRC, the TCS Vanderberg, a Vincent-class corvette, but it was not in the best of conditions.
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And IIRC, the TCS Vanderberg, a Vincent-class corvette, but it was not in the best of conditions.
I'm not certain it was considered an active warship at the time.
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I'm not certain it was considered an active warship at the time.
By the current age (or that time), i do not know if consider it a warship at all.
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The TCS Vandenburg was not active at the time of the First Succession War (or any time after that, really). My guess is that it was allways an inactive hulk, and the Taurine were holding on to it in the off chance that it might just be repairable.
The other option is that it was a "lost" ship that they recovered with the Word's help. Given how many ships the Word and FWLM got that way, it's not unlikely.
While we don't know what happened to the TCS Parin, it's safe to sy that after the second SW it's an ex-warship
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While we don't know what happened to the TCS Parin, it's safe to sy that after the second SW it's an ex-warship
If I were to speculate, my top three options would be
1) gradual catastrophic failure forced its scuttling.
2) Davion or Capellan raiders/commandos destroyed the vessel to eliminate an unbalancing force.
3) Comstar destroyed it.
The original writeup for the Concordat indicates that the last example survived to the first succession war, suggesting whatever happened to it happened before the second. I personally lean towards hostile action, since the Taurians are demonstrated to hang on to warship hulks they can't use long past when they should.
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In other things, its me or the TC is getting way into the "Cavalry Mech" doctrine?
Lets do a review:
The new Stinger and Wasp variants are as fast as the old Locust (and the the -5T is just murder for PBIs). And later they got the Cadaver, again 8/12.
In the medium class we got the Clint -3-3T, quick for a medium at 6/9/6, with a handy (if underwhelming) LAC/5. And then they made the Griffin-4N, matching the speend and jump of the lighter machine, with a Plasma Rifle instead of the PPC.
Finally the Heavy class have become a Taurian favourite. The Brahma speed is nothing special at 5/8/5, along with the Ostroc-5C. But then you see the Thunderbolt -9T....what were they thinking? 6/9 with a LRM-10, couple of LPPC and ERML. It looks like more like a light/medium mech than a heavy. And finally you have the Warhammer twins. The -10T just took the davion imagination and took it further, giving it a 7 jump distance, for a final 5/8/7 (yay, 2 PPCs going 7 of a jump), and the -11T just keep in the IJJ mode, but with a more modest 4/6/5 speed. Its also interesting the use of PPCs and its variants in all this models. Lastly we have the Rifleman-9T, the black sheep of this group. Its just the old Rifleman with a new stealth caparace, TarComp, and 2 LPPCs and 2 LAC/5 for very accurate plinking fire.
What is your opinion?
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The other option is that it was a "lost" ship that they recovered with the Word's help. Given how many ships the Word and FWLM got that way, it's not unlikely.
I may be wrong, but I remember the fluff as the Taurians having it long before the schism.
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The New Van had been in Taurian hands for centuries, yes, they had been unable to repair its transit drives.
Question of my own, is it specified anywhere what 'mech Grover Shraplen drove?
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The New Van had been in Taurian hands for centuries, yes, they had been unable to repair its transit drives.
Question of my own, is it specified anywhere what 'mech Grover Shraplen drove?
I was not aware he was a MechWarrior, or rather, a career MechWarrior. Planetary Governor and Protector, sure, but he never struck me as a "lead from the front" kind of guy.
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Question of my own, is it specified anywhere what 'mech Grover Shraplen drove?
It never has been, no.
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For what I know I am not sure he was a MechWarrior at all.
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Grover Shraplen I've always thought was a monday morning mechwarrior
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The TC has a 4 yr conscription for all citizens. Either the military or some public service. As a planetary noble/ruler it unlikely he spent it in the infantry, or as a teacher.
They do have a Navy and aerospace arm so those are viable options too. Being an ASF pilot or dropship captain does carry some prestige?
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New player, signing up. I suspect reading the (intimidating quantity of) background material for this game will make the great houses seem more interesting, but from my initial reading I'd rather be here! And a friend started explaining the concept of totem mechs, and of the ones he mentioned the Toro was by far the best-looking to me.
Then I figured out this era thing, and the MUL. Okay, I can live with shelving the Toros when I get the upcoming intro box and play 3025 battles. My friends play Jihad era too, and might get into the current timeline. Is it common to use the same minis across all three eras? Just pick a paint scheme that doesn't belong to a regiment that disappeared? (I liked the 2nd Taurian Lancers' blue, so that's a pity. Might go with bronze as a flashy take on the Taurian Guards.)
Anyway, back to the Toro. It looks like the -A-6 might as well not exist because it's Star League-era only, and the -A-1 looks slow and difficult to use. Is it pointless to try to take one? How would one use it, fire the large laser from afar while saving the SRMs for the late game? But how do you make it to the late game? And what kind of lance can make use of one or two? (Okay, that last question probably belongs somewhere else in this forum. It's one aspect of the game I still don't understand well at all.)
Thanks for the help!
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New player, signing up. I suspect reading the (intimidating quantity of) background material for this game will make the great houses seem more interesting, but from my initial reading I'd rather be here! And a friend started explaining the concept of totem mechs, and of the ones he mentioned the Toro was by far the best-looking to me.
Then I figured out this era thing, and the MUL. Okay, I can live with shelving the Toros when I get the upcoming intro box and play 3025 battles. My friends play Jihad era too, and might get into the current timeline. Is it common to use the same minis across all three eras? Just pick a paint scheme that doesn't belong to a regiment that disappeared? (I liked the 2nd Taurian Lancers' blue, so that's a pity. Might go with bronze as a flashy take on the Taurian Guards.)
Anyway, back to the Toro. It looks like the -A-6 might as well not exist because it's Star League-era only, and the -A-1 looks slow and difficult to use. Is it pointless to try to take one? How would one use it, fire the large laser from afar while saving the SRMs for the late game? But how do you make it to the late game? And what kind of lance can make use of one or two? (Okay, that last question probably belongs somewhere else in this forum. It's one aspect of the game I still don't understand well at all.)
Thanks for the help!
Welcome to Battletech where there are far too many questions than answers. I would worry about the eras to much especially for this Mech it is entirely Succession Wars tech. The minis are just tokens for the players, the record sheets are what's really important to the game so feel free.
Concerning the Toro the A6 is very similar to the Panther which has long been a Kurita standby with good reason. In fact the Panther 9LAG version is almost the same mech, just substituting the LRM-5 for SRM-4 and dropping heat sinks for weapons, in fact a lance of 3 Toro A6s and 1 SRM Carrying Toro would give me pause in 3025. The 1A version is inferior because of the primitive armor so use the A6 version.
Use the missiles frequently, the PPC/Missile combo is one of the best known in the game. With two launchers and two ammo bins you have lots of options and can use special and regular ammo in the same turn if you want. With two tons of ammo fire with impunity as long as you can take the heat to clear those bins and reduce the chance of a mech shattered ammo critical hit. I would load Smoke LRM rounds in one and use those to provide cover for allies.
If your group allows custom jobs a pair of SRM-4s with one ton of infernos and the other regular would be equally nasty especially in 3025 but even in the Jihad its a nice way to deal with Battle Armor and Vehicles.
For LRMs get within 7 Hexes of the bad guy to get that sweet short range then shoot everything but alternate LRM-5s and PPCs within 18 to 7 hexes or you will overheat fast.
SRMs give you a viable weapon at close range when the PPC has an accuracy penalty while utilizing the PPC's long range to lay down fire, alternate fire if you are within 9 hexes. A pair of SRM-4s will hit with similar damage but dispersed while allowing you to cool down from movement heat just like the LRMs.
The Toro is potent fire support but has to be used wisely or it will heat up dramatically and slow down. Slow light mechs are just targets that can't take the hit. For best results always be moving to a better position and take cover when you need to cool down (LRMs can indirect fire which means you're not out of the fight while behind cover so use it).
Happy Hunting
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Maybe I’m missing something fundamental, but isn’t the -A6 completely extinct and unavailable?
I don’t get why IWM would make a model of a variant that doesn’t exist in any era anyone actually plays. The -A1 would look pretty similar though, right? Better than the Talos, which you can’t do anything with.
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Maybe I’m missing something fundamental, but isn’t the -A6 completely extinct and unavailable?
I don’t get why IWM would make a model of a variant that doesn’t exist in any era anyone actually plays. The -A1 would look pretty similar though, right? Better than the Talos, which you can’t do anything with.
Battletech is an amazingly plastic game, it has to be because a tabletop battle can take place in any of nearly 700 years and nearly 10 distinct eras. The mini is just a token because this is not a what you see is what you have kind of game like Warhammer 40K.
The Toro is Succession War tech that could be built from modified Panther or Hollander chassis relatively simply. Just because its not made widely anymore doesn't mean it can't be resurrected, whether it is extinct is an entirely arbitrary decision by the TPTB, Multiple designs got 'returned' to production during the Jihad but they were still new because they didn't have a history prior to when the Jihad books were released.
IWM is not affiliated with Catalyst so there is very little talk between the two organizations on what is available. Use what you like as long as your fellow players are okay with that.
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Also in this universe it is not unheard of to have a mech hundreds of years old fighting side by side a mech fresh off the assembly line.
Same could be said for an old paint job, just say it is the unit great great grand whoever served in.
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Much appreciated. This will take some getting used to!
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Maybe I’m missing something fundamental, but isn’t the -A6 completely extinct and unavailable?
I don’t get why IWM would make a model of a variant that doesn’t exist in any era anyone actually plays. The -A1 would look pretty similar though, right? Better than the Talos, which you can’t do anything with.
Traditionally, "era" wasn't as important to players as the general tech level of the 'Mech. For most people, picking a year to play is primarily just a way of saying what tech/rules you want to have in play, as well as a convenient (and somewhat arbitrary) way to cut the number of 'Mech choices down to something manageable.
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Eras and settings are mostly to give battles a theme - if you just want to put a lance or two of 'Mechs together and fight it out, just because you like the way those machines look, there's absolutely nothing stopping you - even if your choices are as varied as putting a KV-2, Centurion Sho't, AMX-40, and an M3 Stuart in the same tank platoon. Like it's been said, it's not a WYSIWYG game, and as long as you have counters of some kind, record sheets, a map, and dice, you're buenolicious.
That said, a lot of folks like certain eras of the game for story reasons, and like to play out battles that might be in that era, from certain faction sides. Sometimes it's fun to limit yourself to what might be available to one side, and have an opponent who does the same, so that you can fight your heroic defense against those damn dirty Davion invaders. "How do I make this work with what I have" mindsets, basically.
But don't let any of that stop you from taking whatever you think is cool on the field, as long as your opponent is cool with it and as long as you're cool with what they bring. Have fun, don't worry, and don't roll snake-eyes.
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I'm a recent convert to the Taurian cause. I honestly think I ignored them for so long because of the mulleted man that was my first impression of them. But now I'm sold. I do find it frustrating at times that I can't find details that I want to build my own units, but then again that means that there's a lot more room for creativity.
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Field Manual Periphery has the details on basic composition, while the MUL can give you an idea as to what they're utilizing. If you like the original Unseen, the Taurians are a good choice as they produce half of them through the Jihad it seems.
The biggest thing with unit composition is that when it comes to Mechs they have 4 Companies per Battalion, rather than the standard 3.
Their conventional armor is also done differently, with 2 tanks per maniple, 3 maniples per lance, 3 lances per company, and 3 companies per battalion, for 54 tanks per Battalion.
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Welcome! A few months ago I was asking a bunch of questions about force composition, and at this point I think I can help a little. Definitely start with Xotl's tables - there's a vehicle and a mech table each for the Taurians in the 3025/'28-3050 era.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0
Of those, several are actually built within the Concordat. As far as I can tell, that includes the Locust, Wasp, Stinger, Commando, Phoenix Hawk, Griffin, Wolverine, Thunderbolt, Ostroc, Warhammer, Archer, and Marauder. In the mid-3050s they briefly make the Hatchetman, too, and then the Marshal around 3060. Then in the Jihad (3067+) the list explodes to include a bunch of primitive designs (e.g. Griffin, Phoenix, Toro, Xanthos), more advanced variants of mechs (sometimes Marik variants with Word of Blake help) like the Clint, Griffin, Shadow Hawk, and Thunderbolt.
They also have rocket launcher versions of some mechs, like the Stinger, Ostroc, and Archer. I'm not sure when those enter production but they might've been there the whole time. The Periphery likes rocket launchers.
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Oh, I also forgot to mention that their conventional infantry is slightly different as well. They have 5 men to a Maniple, 2 Maniples per squad, 3 squads per platoon, for 30 man platoons rather than the usual 28.
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Oh, I also forgot to mention that their conventional infantry is slightly different as well. They have 5 men to a Maniple, 2 Maniples per squad, 3 squads per platoon, for 30 man platoons rather than the usual 28.
I'll note, that is not actually quite true in the original Periphery Sourcebook, which indicated 25-man platoons.
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got a new question for the taurian thread here , since the protector is the national leader . who were the leaders of the political units known as unions....ie title , rank within the taurian governmental system ? would they be an appointed governor-general or an elected position .
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got a new question for the taurian thread here , since the protector is the national leader . who were the leaders of the political units known as unions....ie title , rank within the taurian governmental system ? would they be an appointed governor-general or an elected position .
I assume you're talking about the geographical divisions that show up in the print version of HB:MPS (but strangely not the PDF version I think). The Magistracy has provinces as well. I don't think those divisions are mentioned any place other than those maps (feel free to correct me).
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I assume you're talking about the geographical divisions that show up in the print version of HB:MPS (but strangely not the PDF version I think). The Magistracy has provinces as well. I don't think those divisions are mentioned any place other than those maps (feel free to correct me).
The Taurian Provinces are mentioned in Periphery 1e- the text describes Robsart as a "provincial capital". The book does not include any other information about the provinces.
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thanks guys , was just hoping one of you other members might have some info i don't .
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well , i guess union and province mean about the same thing , just in official documents the term union is used .if this is the case , shouldn't each union or province have it's own militia kind of like each march in the FS . with the govonor , premier or whatever their title have basic control over their own militia resources as a backup to the national forces ?
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Union was for the Taurians, Provinces for the Magistracy IIRC. The problem is there's just absolutely no details on them, so its really whatever works for your game.
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another question for those in the know . when was the taurian navy formally commissioned . since the 1st winchester was commissioned in 2364 , would roughly 2344 sound about right for the commissioning of their navy or was it earlier ?
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Periphery 1e implies the Navy was founded sometime around 2360.
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thanks irose , the periphery has never been very well documented in any way except a little snippet here or there .
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If you need it for your story, its likely there was some prior sort of service- like a Taurian Space Guard & Rescue- that split off personnel & equipment to form the foundation of the navy when they were needed.
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yah , i always wondered what ever happened to all the spacers that got the calderon expedition to taurus . though i think from what you just posited that the split would have gone the other way around . 75% for tcn and 25% for tsg .
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No . . . what I was suggesting was that initially a colony would have a search and rescue service. As population increases, more infrastructure ends up in space, the economy increases and you begin to engage in trade with neighbors . . . that is when you might split off the more militant members of the space rescue to form your new navy. It works better b/c they bring over institutional knowledge about operations rather than starting from scratch and transferring your cadre from say . . . the Army. Because a old general, now Admiral is going to commit ground-based thinking mistakes trying to give orders to ships in a 3D environment.
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No . . . what I was suggesting was that initially a colony would have a search and rescue service. As population increases, more infrastructure ends up in space, the economy increases and you begin to engage in trade with neighbors . . . that is when you might split off the more militant members of the space rescue to form your new navy. It works better b/c they bring over institutional knowledge about operations rather than starting from scratch and transferring your cadre from say . . . the Army. Because a old general, now Admiral is going to commit ground-based thinking mistakes trying to give orders to ships in a 3D environment.
Not that I disagree with your point about the problems with transferring over army troops to the navy but in this case Periphery 1e clearly says the TC did not have a standing army until 2360. Prior to 2360 they may have had some militias for planetary defense and maybe a coast guard like organization for protecting/patrolling space lanes.
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It was just a suggestion . . . historically, some nations with their armies as the premier service have assigned generals to command fleets for various reasons. I have no details about the TC military formation but was rather suggesting their navy- because of their later professionalism- was perhaps formed from some civil agency used to operating in space.
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colt you could well be right , but as there were supposed to have been 25 aquilla bringing the original colony population + supplies . so all those spacers could have given a cadre for both orginazitions , leaving enough for the commerce aspect of things . but i like you ideas even when they clash with my ideas .
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The Taurians settled in an area where regular impact events were a serious concern, to the point where they had high yield nuclear warheads on hand specifically to nudge asteroids out of the way well into the 31st century.
They likely had a very active spacer tradition from the beginning just to prevent cataclysmic impacts.
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Judging by CamoSpecs, the colors Taurians use in HBS BattleTech, blood red and white, don't seem to be canonical paint scheme for Taurians?
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Similar to the 3rd Taurian Lancers and Taurian Pride regiments.
But tptb would have given them a canon scheme for a regiment.
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Judging by CamoSpecs, the colors Taurians use in HBS BattleTech, blood red and white, don't seem to be canonical paint scheme for Taurians?
None of the HBS schemes are directly based on canon schemes, but are more angled at giving "generic" schemes that represent that faction. Some of the choices are inspured by canon schemes though
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Has the Taurian Wolverine variant mentioned in FR2765 Periphery ever been stated out?
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Has the Taurian Wolverine variant mentioned in FR2765 Periphery ever been stated out?
No, as far as i know.
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They didn't include it in the Succession Wars TRO? That would be logical.
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They didn't include it in the Succession Wars TRO? That would be logical.
As they haven't i'm going to assume we'll see it in whichever IlClan recguide includes the Wolverine.
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Has the TDF gotten any mechs other than the Royal Warhammer and Marauder in the recguides to date?
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Has the TDF gotten any mechs other than the Royal Warhammer and Marauder in the recguides to date?
None than i am aware off. Would love to see a new Thunderbolt variant that is not the -9T.
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None than i am aware off. Would love to see a new Thunderbolt variant that is not the -9T.
Sounds like the Royal Thunderbolt is also being built.
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Sounds like the Royal Thunderbolt is also being built.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/ground-combat/marauder-2r/msg1335634/#msg1335634 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/ground-combat/marauder-2r/msg1335634/#msg1335634)
WHM-6Rb at Pinard.
TTI is building the WHM-10T/11T.
TDR-5Sb is being built at Pinard as well, at least until the TDR-9T.
And the Pinard PXH is the PXH-4W.
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Hope the reunification in 3157 goes smoothly.
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Did i get this right? The Taurians use 6-tank lances, and thus 18-tank companies?
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Yes, yes they do.
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Neato. Commanders sent against the Taurians better not be careless about intel.
Pondering making a Taurian unit but not 100% sure on that though.
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Their mech forces normally use four company battalions as well.
Though depending on the era they might not have the equipment to fill out units like that, so that could vary.
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Yeah, well, wouldn't do anything beyond a company or combined arms battalion... (Well, unless i'd end up winning in a lottery.)
The TC lacking combined arms doctrine is a bit disappointing. As is the fact their vehicle units seem to be more or less planet-bound.
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That's probably mostly due to transportation issues. The Taurians don't build a lot of or very big dropships, and they don't have a lot of jumpships to haul them around.
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I think they should have a combined arms training but it is mostly as a defensive force, not as an Offensive one. Because as Liam's Ghost said, limited dropship options
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This actually does explain why they use bigger tank lances and companies. If those aren't getting moved around, there isn't really reason to limit their size to the standard 4. Defensively, bigger units are just fine.
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That larger formation also makes sense since the TC has a bad tendency to shrink when taken out of the wash. Larger ground based defense forces make it easier to defend against incoming attack, and it also works nicely with the TC's paranoia.
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Are there any novels/short stories/novellas/sourcebooks that cover or feature Taurians (including Calderon and maybe even Fronc) past the Major Periphery States Handbook? I've buzzed around the BT universe for some time now, but finally getting more into it with a couple of local friends to actually play games with, and we're looking at the new Ilclan era as a good place to get into the metaplot. H:MPS ends in 3067 so that's before all that Blakist horror, but is anything after that worth a read for Taurian content?
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Operation Turning Points: Tortuga and the Fronc Reaches deal with the Fronc Reaches battles against the pirates of the Tortuga Dominion in 3072 and 3088. They're both well written and feature both merc units, the Fronc Reaches militia and the Colonial Marshals facing down the pirates in a homage to classic Westerns. Total Chaos and Jihad Final Reckoning deal with the Taurian invasion of the Federated Suns and its defeat during the Jihad, with Field Manual 3085 and 3145 detailing out the rapid decline of the Taurians until about 3145 or so. Era Digest/Report Dark Ages and Shattered Fortress gives some extra information on the Taurians in the late Dark Age era.
Basically, the Taurians go to war against the Federated Suns, gain the Pleadies Cluster but lose much of their other territory after their rebuilt Warship and military forces are driven off over the Jihad. Even using nukes against the Fed Suns doesn't stop their defeat. Taurus also gets hit by an asteroid from the Word of Blakes's mass driver ship, destroying the capital. Their 3085 leader goes paranoid and through bad mismanagement, the Taurians end up as the fifth most powerful faction in the Periphery til about the 3140s. Their crazy leader is overthrown, and they contonue rebuild and open up trade relations with the Filtvelt Coalition, the Calderon Protectorate, the Fronc Reaches, the Magistracy of Canopus, and the Raven Alliance. By 3146, they've rebuilt to 9 mech regiments or so, and extend a reunification offer via marriage to the Calderon Protectorate.
TL:DR, the TC overextends itself in the Jihad, and takes
about 60 plus years to get back to some form of stability and power.
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One of the funny tjings of the taurian fall is that the fedsuns did not invade to capitalize and get those (now defenseless) planets that leave Taurian control. So their paranoia seems to have been grossly overboard.
We knew that, but maybe now the taurians will know it as well?
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Thanks both! Yeah, I gathered that the Taurians uh... scored a rather apocalyptic own goal. I'm hoping that the lack of a Davion invasion will lead to cooler heads prevailing as things go forward. But I'll check out those books for sure.
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Alright! I did quite a bit of reading from the recommended sources, and now I'm going through the books on Ian Cameron's (boo, hiss, etc)) misbegotten nightmare of a league. It would indeed be nice if, as the plot progresses from 3151, cooler heads prevail and the periphery states can get on back to developing their own paths and avoiding entanglements with the latest round of Terran barbarism. There's so much potential for rebuilding relationships with ex-Concordat worlds, exploration, and building the good society if the Taurian-Calderon reunification goes well.
For paint scheme I'm thinking of doing a couple lances in a modified First Taurian Pride scheme. The red and brown might wash out a little, so I'm thinking of maybe leaning more to a cold blue-white as a secondary pop colour instead of/in addition to the brown, and bright cockpits - maybe with some brass/bronze metallic panelling to evoke the brown that's mentioned.
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Given the resurrection of Star League, this time by very blood thirsty descendants of the original, i would expect this to even expedite any Taurian reunification.
I mean, anyone want to take bets that the Star League is NOT coming for the Taurians?
It may not happen for the next 10 years but... well, i would expect it to be inevitable from Taurian POV, perhaps.
Also, some speculation. Alaric Ward claims only Steiner heritage publicly but since he is a Steiner-Davion, he has some claim to the Throne of the Federated Suns. And the Federated Suns is weary. I do wonder if they'd be willing to swear fealty to the ilClan? If so, the Taurians would share border with the new Star League...
Just sayin' potentially dangerous years ahead.
Uncertain how sane the current Taurian (and Calderon) leaders are. And how paranoid.
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For paint scheme I'm thinking of doing a couple lances in a modified First Taurian Pride scheme. The red and brown might wash out a little, so I'm thinking of maybe leaning more to a cold blue-white as a secondary pop colour instead of/in addition to the brown, and bright cockpits - maybe with some brass/bronze metallic panelling to evoke the brown that's mentioned.
You could still make the red work by darkening the brown. I think what makes red and brown wash out on a lot of minis is that they're often of too similar a value (brightness). Then for hue contrast, use something close to teal for the cockpits, lasers, and a marking here or there.
If you use cold blue-white instead of red, I think you still want a somewhat dark main color for the same reason. More bronze than brass.
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The current Taurian and Calderon leaders are pretty solid. All of the crazed ones are either dead or deposed, and I think the TC was the one who extended the reunification offer by marriage to the CP. Should that happen, it should settle down the TC's relationships with the FS more since the CP has enjoyed expanded trade relations with the FS and the Filtvelt Coalition for several decades. The CP even builds Fedcom Civil War and Jihad era Fedsuns designs in their territory. So the reunified Tauriand wilild have access to Davion, Liao, Magistracy, Filtvelt, Brotherhood of Randis, Clan Sea Fox and their own production to draw from. That's a lot of sources for good units. Especially since the Taurians are producing Royal Star Leauge era Thunderbolts, Warhammers and Marauders at this point as well.
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The current Taurian and Calderon leaders are pretty solid. All of the crazed ones are either dead or deposed, and I think the TC was the one who extended the reunification offer by marriage to the CP. Should that happen, it should settle down the TC's relationships with the FS more since the CP has enjoyed expanded trade relations with the FS and the Filtvelt Coalition for several decades. The CP even builds Fedcom Civil War and Jihad era Fedsuns designs in their territory. So the reunified Tauriand wilild have access to Davion, Liao, Magistracy, Filtvelt, Brotherhood of Randis, Clan Sea Fox and their own production to draw from. That's a lot of sources for good units. Especially since the Taurians are producing Royal Star Leauge era Thunderbolts, Warhammers and Marauders at this point as well.
Also a surprise to me that they haven't added SL Royal Archers to that list as well.
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Also a surprise to me that they haven't added SL Royal Archers to that list as well.
The Archer 4M and 4M2 nigh-identical and universally available. The Royal Archer got a ton more ammo at the expense of one rear laser, it just ain't worth manufacture it. Would not be surprised if individual warriors have their 'Mechs altered to what's functionally identical to the Royal Archer, but there's absolutely no point in manufacturing that.
It is actually somewhat bizarre the Free World League does manufacture the Royal Archer (which would've been reintroduced circa 3072)... utterly redundant and pointless.
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Maybe it's a marketing thing.
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ah, yes, arms manufacturers in tandem with national militaries. the premier Rational Actors in any economic model
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You could still make the red work by darkening the brown. I think what makes red and brown wash out on a lot of minis is that they're often of too similar a value (brightness). Then for hue contrast, use something close to teal for the cockpits, lasers, and a marking here or there.
If you use cold blue-white instead of red, I think you still want a somewhat dark main color for the same reason. More bronze than brass.
Ooh, thanks. I didn't think of varying the values. I'll have a play around with some stripes on a piece of sprue and see what pops. I think red for the main body is a given, and maybe slightly varied shades of it on different mechs. I think there's a couple of good teal-y shades I have access to in my paint collection as well. I appreciate the advice - I was initially thinking a kind of bright blue, but then I spent a while looking at Blood Angels Devastators and Genesis Chapter vets and decided I don't want blue heads on red bodies. Teal could be a nice area to explore!
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On the topic of the future of relations between Taurians, I do think it's possible that Alaric or his successors wind up following in Ian Cameron's bloody footsteps, though that seems like a lot of other stuff has to happen first - getting the other houses on board has so many challenges, and I don't think there's much to suggest that dangling a periphery invasion is going to get them all to line up - or at least, not all are interested or care about the "southwest". And unlike the first invasion and the freedom war, the Canopians are in a really good position and the Outworlders are (however unhappily) either militarily stiffened or politically onboarded by the Ravens.
Along those lines, if strategists of all parties have learned anything (a big if for Terran and Taurian hotheads at times, to be sure) from 3067+, it's that the Davions don't actually care that much about the Taurians; indeed, the continued existence of Filtvelt might show less paranoid Taurians that the Suns realizes it might actually be better to have economically active neighbours and a stable border on the outside, especially when the Dragon and the Cappellans are such major threats, rather than have a bunch of relatively un-industrialized worlds that it's responsible for managing poorly. It seems that at the moment anyway both parts of the Taurian polity aren't all that attractive to gobble down; the more attractive it gets, the more painful it'll be to eat, too. It may be that if left to their own devices (for the foreseeable, at least) to sell and trade and deal with other local states, ALL of those small fringe actors might develop their economies enough to make them good markets for the the fine wares that khajit has the FedSuns produces. Of course, all of that assumes that the relevant decision making bodies don't go supervillain again, and obviously from an OOC perspective we want fun military storytelling - but I think there are plenty of interesting stories and campaigns to be had if 3151+ marks an upswing in the fortunes of the Taurians.
As to unit production - I can't really wrap my head around how one goes about finding out who makes what, but I went back in this thread a few pages and found a previous person's list and selected 10 mechs to form into a couple of lances + alternates.
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Another thing is that the TC and CP have a lot of systems to reintegrate before they look outside their own old borders. They are small even when combined, much smaller than the old TC was.
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Is the TC making any Clan grade hardware at this point?
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No
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Clan and mixed-tech stuff available to the Taurians and Periphery in general:
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&Technologies=2&Technologies=3&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=&Factions=57&Factions=47
Grand total of 22 units.
Figure the Griffin IIC and Lupus OmniMech are the most notable things.
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Clan and mixed-tech stuff available to the Taurians and Periphery in general:
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&Technologies=2&Technologies=3&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=&Factions=57&Factions=47
Grand total of 22 units.
Figure the Griffin IIC and Lupus OmniMech are the most notable things.
Yeah but there's a difference between making it themselves and buying from the Diamond Sharks.
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they are not making any. about the only access periphery nations have access to clantech is via cash
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with the notable exception of the Outworlds-Raven Alliance. having a live-in Clan has benefits, even if they do tend to be the tail wagging the dog sometimes in terms of interstellar politics.
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I expected the Sea Fox sales will shoot up rather dramatically as they work through those salvage yards on Terra. Of course, what actually gets bought by relatively small states is another question, but it certainly seems like there's going to be a lot going around.
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I expected the Sea Fox sales will shoot up rather dramatically as they work through those salvage yards on Terra. Of course, what actually gets bought by relatively small states is another question, but it certainly seems like there's going to be a lot going around.
Now i'm imagining the Sea Fox log evolving, getting fatter and fatter until it bursts.
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To be fair do the Sea Foxes, they've probably got the most well tuned marketing system in all of human space when it comes to rebranding. :P
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Maaannnnn. Just read the Periphery 1E and 2E sourcebooks. Things were going so well in 3058, and then a combination of unfortunate events and paranoia really came together to turn everything into a horrible dumpster fire. Has it been revealed yet whether the asteroid strike was directed by some other party? Obviously the Shraplen/Tharn/Urratia line was that it was a Suns plot somehow, but that seems well discounted by the lack of interest the Suns took in the Taurian worlds except as a response to invasion.
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The asteroid strike was confirmed to be the WOB.
They used a Faslane to launch the asteroid. :thumbsup:
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The asteroid strike was confirmed to be the WOB.
They used a Faslane to launch the asteroid. :thumbsup:
you know the same group who was shaping the info that Shraplen/Tharn was getting news and intelligence
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you know the same group who was shaping the info that Shraplen/Tharn was getting news and intelligence
Or so the Davions would have us believe.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/9miLGPXBs4w/maxresdefault.jpg)
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you know the same group who was shaping the info that Shraplen/Tharn was getting news and intelligence
When you tell a nation of paranoids the thing they want to hear, it's not hard to get them to believe it.
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Did the WoB have some scheme in mind, or was it just a case of desiring general devastation to ensue?
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Did the WoB have some scheme in mind, or was it just a case of desiring general devastation to ensue?
It was more a case of keeping the Taurian's fighting the FedSuns.
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The asteroid strike was confirmed to be the WOB.
They used a Faslane to launch the asteroid. :thumbsup:
are you sure it wasn't the Newgrange class Erinyes (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Erinyes_(WarShip))?
(i mean, for one the WoB didn't have any Faslane's, those all stayed with C*)
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Did the WoB have some scheme in mind, or was it just a case of desiring general devastation to ensue?
Keep the suns occupied and let the taurians devastate their worlds. Heck the WoB gifted them a shiny Quixote Warship so the Taurians could run amok. The Fedsuns lst one of their fox corvettes (the Kathil) and another was heavily damaged (the New Syrtis) trying to destroy this ship until the Vendetta ran into a minefield over Firgrove and then getting pelted by surface to space missiles.
Though what the Taurians did not expect was that Hansens Roughriders would lay waste to several planets within the Concordat razing cities and vital factories to the ground.
Oh there was an interesting tidbit in the FM 3067: in the intelligence briefing about the Magistracy by Kernoff he stated that the Magistracy was actually growing by sucking the concordat dry. Was that just assumptions or did it really happen? I think Kernoff's analysis had some merit (Detroit is the biggest case) and in general the Magistracy profited way more then the concordat. Of course shraplen's leadership wasn't exactly a shining example on how to lead a nation either.
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It could have been the newgrange, my wife has hidden my books and i still can't find them. :thumbsup:
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The TC got royally screwed joining the triple alliance, they were always the junior member and got less but pour blood into meat grinder.
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Jeffrey Calderon was just too good to let live. Everything has been going Liao's way since Op Guerrero.
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It does mention in Periphery 2E that there is a fringe sentiment in 3058 that is already complaining that the MoC is passively going to absorb the TC - but in reading FM: Periphery set in 3063, it seems like there are both those Taurians wary of any foreign entanglements and those who are wary only of Davion entanglements but will pal up with literally anyone else if they can pretend it helps their perceived Davion problem, and Brenda Calderon's notes in FM:P implies to me that Shraplen managed to leverage the anti-Jeffrey sentiments of both those camps even though they'd also disagree with each other.
For all that I'm inclined to beatify Jeffrey, his administration badly bungle the NCR, and turned what could have been a useful partnership between the Taurians and Canopians to rein in the Capellans into a situation the fallout meant the Taurians were distinctly the junior-est partner AND pandered to the paranoiac element of Taurian society to very bad ends for everyone involved. For all that it seems the Canopians have been fine in that alliance, it seems like the Capellans have benefited the most from their alliance too.
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Sun Tzu's plan was always to get the Canopian and Taurian militaries for the meat grinder and the Taurian industry to feed his war effort. The Canopians' only buy in was to dupe the Taurians. Their military wasn't much to look at by itself and they didn't exactly have a lot of industry. Taurus was the real prize to Sun Tzu and they hatched a plan to rope the bull in by hook or by crook.
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And the grand irony of it all is that the Canopians came out the true winner. Sun Tzu was able to gain back some of the Chaos March, only to lose part of it to the Word of Blake and then the Republic of the Sphere. They had to rebuild their military again in order to take it back. The Canopians and Liao intermarried, the Duchy of Andurien allied itself to Liao and Canopis again, and the Taurians lost most of their territory, competent leadership, and military from their own paranoia. It took two more crazed leaders for them to finally get their act together, and have even fought alongside Davion in the Dark Age against Liao raids.
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I'm not quite convinced that the Magistracy got much out of the Capellan entanglements - though maybe I'm not quite grokking what the strategic goals of the Magistracy leadership are. Perhaps the thing they really want is just to be left to their own devices, in which case they might come out of it swimmingly as long as Sun-Tzu's successors don't try to Capellify the Magistracy.
But yeah, no doubt it, the Taurians came out of that significantly worse off, and in no small part due to their own choices.
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The Magistracy wants what any power wants: stability and more power. The Magstricacy usually aims for the long game, and given the nature of Liao to short circuit after thirty or forty years, they're in a position to help control the most powerful of the IS states (Dark Age/ilClan anyway) and enhance their own safety as well. The Taurians ended up falling prey to the failed king paradox and are trying to get things fixed. I hope they do, because there's going to be an uptick in pirate activity again when the remnants of the ROTS military scatter to the four winds.
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The Magistracy wants what any power wants: stability and more power. The Magstricacy usually aims for the long game, and given the nature of Liao to short circuit after thirty or forty years, they're in a position to help control the most powerful of the IS states (Dark Age/ilClan anyway) and enhance their own safety as well. The Taurians ended up falling prey to the failed king paradox and are trying to get things fixed. I hope they do, because there's going to be an uptick in pirate activity again when the remnants of the ROTS military scatter to the four winds.
I'd bet that most of the RAF either ends up in FedSuns army or in FedSuns employ as mercenaries. With the ones stuck on Terra eventually joining the Wolves. The Taurians seem on the path of slowly reconciling with the Calderon Protectorate and given the vast amount of unaffiliated planets between them might grow back to what it was as long as their leadership can keep the "Davion bad" paranoia in check
And for the Magistracy: they are flip-floppers. They can adapt to the changes in power. That might make them look fickle but they aren't Just take a look at the Reunification War: they fought the SLDF hard and with tricks but they didn't resort to weapons of mass destruction. Sure their opponent was just as restrained but it spared the Magistracy the destruction the other Periphery powers experienced (the Outworlds being the exception since THAT was solely the SLDF's fault)
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Especially since many of those planets are leftover from the poor Aurigan Coalition.
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Sure their opponent was just as restrained but it spared the Magistracy the destruction the other Periphery powers experienced (the Outworlds being the exception since THAT was solely the SLDF's fault)
in both the Taurian and Outworlds fronts it was the SLDF that kicked off warcrimes o'clock.
The Magistracy got off lightly because their principal adversary was a FWL nobleman who was determined to wage a clean war.
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in both the Taurian and Outworlds fronts it was the SLDF that kicked off warcrimes o'clock.
The Magistracy got off lightly because their principal adversary was a FWL nobleman who was determined to wage a clean war.
Well the Concordat was somewhat different. They already fought outside the rules but after Robsart the last restraints were shaken of.
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Well the Concordat was somewhat different. They already fought outside the rules but after Robsart the last restraints were shaken of.
There was a lot of strategic trickery and maneuvering but it was a clean war until the SLDF thought bombarding a defenseless populace was a good idea just because they took more losses than expected against the navy they'd already driven off anyway.
Seriously, between Forlough and Robsart, the TH high command demonstrated a depressingly dehumanised view of Periphery denizens everywhere.
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There was a lot of strategic trickery and maneuvering but it was a clean war until the SLDF thought bombarding a defenseless populace was a good idea just because they took more losses than expected against the navy they'd already driven off anyway.
Seriously, between Forlough and Robsart, the TH high command demonstrated a depressingly dehumanised view of Periphery denizens everywhere.
True though as the war went on the actions on both sides only reinforced the views (until the CO's of the Outworlds Front and Taurian front changed for the last time. Then the wars became more principled again). Funny thing: when the war against the Outworlds started there were some SLDF commanders who took great care to fight as clean as possible (well not the DCMS expedition force especially later on the Rim worlds Front *cough* Nightwish *cough* But Fourlough lost it when the Pitcairn Legion wrecked his forces and he was shackled by the High command when they diverted his transports to Davion forces in the Concordat
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There was a lot of strategic trickery and maneuvering but it was a clean war until the SLDF thought bombarding a defenseless populace was a good idea just because they took more losses than expected against the navy they'd already driven off anyway.
Seriously, between Forlough and Robsart, the TH high command demonstrated a depressingly dehumanised view of Periphery denizens everywhere.
Yeah, the babykiller should have hanged, certainly but that acoorn didn't fall far from the tree of Ian Cameron. Sure, the Hegemony's propaganda corps couldn't bear the thought that a civilized society existed outside of their grasp, so they murdered 100 million Taurians to change reality to fit their ideology - but the Outworlders? The 12 million farmers, luddites, and pacifists lost thereshow that the Star League was not just jealous and insecure, but also bloodthirsty on top.
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Hey Taurians,
I just found out the Concordat used Vindicator AAs since the 3060ies.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3421/vindicator-vnd-1aa-avenging-angel
Is there a backstory? Were they another 'gift' by the Confederation? And is it not a little late for such a Mech...?
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Well the Concordat was somewhat different. They already fought outside the rules but after Robsart the last restraints were shaken of.
Ian Cameron declared before hostilities even began that the Star League wouldn't be complying with the Ares Conventions. There was never any intention to fight a limited war - the plan Cameron had in mind was a rapid victory by the most expedient means available, and that meant utter ruthlessness. Unfortunately for everyone, the SLDF massively underestimated the Periphery. So the "short, victorious war" fought without restraint ended up being a grinding war of attrition, fought with total war tactics because you can't put total war back in it's box once you've broken the taboo.
Ironically, the Concordate's strength ended up crippling it for centuries to come. If they'd lost the will or the ability to fight quickly, it all would have been over with. Instead, Cameron all but burned Taurian society to the ground, because he couldn't possibly have cared less for the human cost of his ambitions.
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Hey Taurians,
I just found out the Concordat used Vindicator AAs since the 3060ies.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3421/vindicator-vnd-1aa-avenging-angel
Is there a backstory? Were they another 'gift' by the Confederation? And is it not a little late for such a Mech...?
There's no backstory as such. If you wanted to think about it too hard, it could simply be the Cappies unloading unwanted older 'Mechs onto their newfound allies to help them build up their forces.
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I would just assume that the Taurians got access to that older tech as part of the Triple-whatever their agreement was called in the 60's before the Jihad. Is the Vind-AA really much to write home about for the Taurians? They've always had good mech industry there.
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I would just assume that the Taurians got access to that older tech as part of the Triple-whatever their agreement was called in the 60's before the Jihad. Is the Vind-AA really much to write home about for the Taurians? They've always had good mech industry there.
It's widely seen as garbage. The CC donated some to the Free Rasalhague Republic when it was formed largely as a way to dump them off. In the post 4th SW-era CC, what does that tell you when they're donating something your way? I'd assume Taurian Avenging Angels would be a similar case of the CC doing the bare minimum to supply the TC.
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Note that the Taurians are one of the few people probably able to keep an army of such running and likely supplied the engines for them to begin with. Not a lot of manufacturers churning out 225FEs.
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As others have said, they gave the Taurians more V-AAs as both a sign of aid and raw cash to upgrade their own armies. The Taurians ended up losing the most from the Trinity Alliance, but it did give them access to higher technology along with stealth armor. The Marshal 2C and other 3060 to Early Republic era designs for the Taurians refect this.
What I love is the continued move of the Taurians towards the French cavalry idea of fast attack unit backed by trooper mechs. You have fast heavies and Mediums that get support from Royal era trooper mechs like the T-bolt, the Marauder 2R, and the Warhammer 6Rb and 7A. Their Dark Age list is one of my favorites to peruse and build forces from. Now if we could only get a Level 2 version of the Toro from the Calderons, a new build version of the Talos, and a variant upteched Devastator DV1, I'd be a happy man.
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Is the Vind-AA really much to write home about for the Taurians? They've always had good mech industry there.
Certainly not, though I do see a single possibility in which the AA is useful: training units. While the Taurians have a respectable Mech industry, having units for training donated by a foreign power allows your industry to focus on combat units, front line and territorial defense.
It is also quite telling that the Capellans do not even need those training Mechs anymore, their industry can provide all with ease; they are that powerful.
Also, modifying the AA to be a viable combat unit even in the 60ies is not too difficult. DHS alone would allow to fully armour the Mech and help a lot, while stuff like FF or CASE would just be icing on the cake. Or switch the LRM for RL.
Note that the Taurians are one of the few people probably able to keep an army of such running and likely supplied the engines for them to begin with. Not a lot of manufacturers churning out 225FEs.
That is an interesting point. I could see the Taurians cannibalizing the whole AA fleet if it fits their needs.
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Note that the Taurians are one of the few people probably able to keep an army of such running and likely supplied the engines for them to begin with. Not a lot of manufacturers churning out 225FEs.
Do the Taurians produce 225 Fusion Engines at all? Because there's not a lot of units that use them
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Do the Taurians produce 225 Fusion Engines at all? Because there's not a lot of units that use them
The Taurians produce the Sabre aerofighter, which uses a 225 engine.
Actually, since almost everybody uses and produces the Sabre, it's probably a pretty common powerplant, even though there isn't much of a variety of things you can use it on.
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The Taurians produce the Sabre aerofighter, which uses a 225 engine.
Actually, since almost everybody uses and produces the Sabre, it's probably a pretty common powerplant, even though there isn't much of a variety of things you can use it on.
Well there you go. I didn't know that at all.
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In that case I can totally see the Taurians canibalizing the AAs.
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Well there you go. I didn't know that at all.
I had to google it then confirm by looking it up in the books. It really doesn't feel like an engine a lot of people would have a use for.
(Of course now I'm contemplating what I could get away with dropping one in a Commando frame)
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In that case I can totally see the Taurians canibalizing the AAs.
Honestly the Vindicator AA's biggest issues are the insanely thin armor. but that can be fixed with star league tech, slap double heat sinks and FF armor on the thing and you've got a reasonably decent medium mech, nothing special but solid eneugh for periphary duty
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If you have that SL tech earmarked for more urgent purposes, you can still salvage the AA easily enough. I'd echo the suggest to rip out the LRM/5, replace it with one or two RL/10 for a bit of on-demand oomph. Also pull out that worthless small laser which mostly just kills pilots on ejection. That gives you a decent chunk of armor to slather on and puts you comfortably back in the range where you can see off pirates convincingly.
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The Taurians produce the Sabre aerofighter, which uses a 225 engine.
Actually, since almost everybody uses and produces the Sabre, it's probably a pretty common powerplant, even though there isn't much of a variety of things you can use it on.
Not everybody. There isn't a factory in Liao space for one. Or FWL. Probably why they went with TC and MoC, to get indirect access to those two.
Do the Taurians produce 225 Fusion Engines at all? Because there's not a lot of units that use them
In addition to the Sabre, the TC also produces the Quasit, which is a militiamech that also uses a 225SFE. So the TC produces it for both aerospace and mech applications.
If you have that SL tech earmarked for more urgent purposes, you can still salvage the AA easily enough. I'd echo the suggest to rip out the LRM/5, replace it with one or two RL/10 for a bit of on-demand oomph. Also pull out that worthless small laser which mostly just kills pilots on ejection. That gives you a decent chunk of armor to slather on and puts you comfortably back in the range where you can see off pirates convincingly.
The small laser is the one in the arm. The one in the head is the medium. Frankly even swapping to DHS would allow near full armor without FFA.
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honestly there may not be a factory building Sabres there, but I bet there are small shops turning out copies of the AK of space fighters or at least where you can get spare parts
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Thought i'd posted this already but couldn't find it so might have mis-remembered.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/taurian-vindicator-1aa-rebuild/
My take on a rebuild of the -1AA have a couple of further ideas which i'll try to bash out and post as well.
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Howdy everyone,
I'm new to the forum, and decided to stop by the thread I was most interested in. After reading a solid chunk on the Taurian Concordat and Calderon Protectorate from Sarna, I had some questions about where people expect the Bulls to go.
As far as the 3151 maps show the TauCon is the smallest that it has ever been with most worlds either taken by the FedSuns, annexed by CapCon, left with the Calderon Protectorate, or simply got sick of being threatened with nukes for raising concerns and became independent. On the diplomatic front a huge black mark on the nation was the alliance with the Word of Blake, and then how brutal fighting between the TauCon and FedSuns was during the Word of Blake.
It didn't get better the more that I looked.
SDI (Sterope Defense Industries) produces a massive amount of lasers, PPCs, autocannons, and LRMs for other contractors to use in weapon platform construction. SDI is gone with Sterope now an independent planet. While they might still make deliveries and honor contracts, thats one of the big five Taurian defense contractors no longer in the Concordat.
PPL (Pinard Protectorates Limited) lost all industry on Perdition which made the MAD-3R, PXH, Plainsman, Prowler, and Light SRM Carrier for Tau Con. The Bulls also lost the planet, and Organo which makes the Taurian Sabre Aerospace Fighters and the Organo Flight Academy. PPL only retained their MacLeod's Land and Pinard industries still in the Concordat as far as I can tell.
TTI's (Taurian Territorial Industies) Asterion BA, Trinity BA, Maultier, and Seydelitz production lines are on Sterope which is now independent.
Only VMI (Vandenburg Mechanized Industries) and WEI (Wingman Enterprises Limited) still all in TC. The Jihad left Taurian military production increasingly focused on RetroTech, which was a massive step back for TauCon. I would hope that 70 years of trying to fix that would help, but I'm not sure I believe that given the universe. Then when you tack on that most major Taurian military manufacturering c. 3151 is now within one jump of the new "Laconis Front" with CapCon, things get even more dire. There looks to be a real threat that the Taurian Concordat might lose the capability to effectively supply its own military if CapCon hits Pinard or New Vandenburg even just to raid and burn industry to the ground.
The Federated Suns have pushed CapCon back from New Syrtris c.3151, leaving the Pleaides once again firmly encirled by the FedSuns. It also seems that the Jihad and Dark Ages had the Bulls "liberating" the populace of the Pleaides Cluster while increasingly acting more like the tyrants they believe FedSuns to be. That in turn managed to keep an insurgency alive till at least 3145, which is not a great sign for further control of the cluster.
Reuniting with the Calderon Protectorate through marriage seems to be the focus for starting to heal the nation, but that's still trying to reunite two sides of a civil war. Marriage between untested rulers as the magic solution to bind the Concordat, Protectorate, and former Taurian worlds back together is also hopeful, and I'm not sure how well it will actually pan out.
CapCon expanding into the Concordat, Taurian worlds independent rather than be under a military junta, the Calderon marriage alliance still years away, and TauCon being short of allies makes me think of a nation dangling over an abyss. I seriously hope that the nation turns over a new leaf, and think that it would be cool to see the Bulls confonting the scars and consequences that long term paranoia (rather than healthy suspicion) has left on the nation. Heck, I kind of hope to see a limited TauCon and FedSun military action to push CapCon back now that the Confederation is a clear and present danger to the continued existence of the Concordat. Not sure that would ever happen, but when you've hit rock bottom the only way to go is up. Or die.
With Dominions Divided coming, my question for the thread is where do you hope TauCon will go from here and where you think it actually will go? Most important of all what would you do if you Protector Kaff Doru right now?
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Howdy everyone,
I'm new to the forum, and decided to stop by the thread I was most interested in. After reading a solid chunk on the Taurian Concordat and Calderon Protectorate from Sarna, I had some questions about where people expect the Bulls to go.
As far as the 3151 maps show the TauCon is the smallest that it has ever been with most worlds either taken by the FedSuns, annexed by CapCon, left with the Calderon Protectorate, or simply got sick of being threatened with nukes for raising concerns and became independent. On the diplomatic front a huge black mark on the nation was the alliance with the Word of Blake, and then how brutal fighting between the TauCon and FedSuns was during the Word of Blake.
It didn't get better the more that I looked.
SDI (Sterope Defense Industries) produces a massive amount of lasers, PPCs, autocannons, and LRMs for other contractors to use in weapon platform construction. SDI is gone with Sterope now an independent planet. While they might still make deliveries and honor contracts, thats one of the big five Taurian defense contractors no longer in the Concordat.
PPL (Pinard Protectorates Limited) lost all industry on Perdition which made the MAD-3R, PXH, Plainsman, Prowler, and Light SRM Carrier for Tau Con. The Bulls also lost the planet, and Organo which makes the Taurian Sabre Aerospace Fighters and the Organo Flight Academy. PPL only retained their MacLeod's Land and Pinard industries still in the Concordat as far as I can tell.
TTI's (Taurian Territorial Industies) Asterion BA, Trinity BA, Maultier, and Seydelitz production lines are on Sterope which is now independent.
Only VMI (Vandenburg Mechanized Industries) and WEI (Wingman Enterprises Limited) still all in TC. The Jihad left Taurian military production increasingly focused on RetroTech, which was a massive step back for TauCon. I would hope that 70 years of trying to fix that would help, but I'm not sure I believe that given the universe. Then when you tack on that most major Taurian military manufacturering c. 3151 is now within one jump of the new "Laconis Front" with CapCon, things get even more dire. There looks to be a real threat that the Taurian Concordat might lose the capability to effectively supply its own military if CapCon hits Pinard or New Vandenburg even just to raid and burn industry to the ground.
The Federated Suns have pushed CapCon back from New Syrtris c.3151, leaving the Pleaides once again firmly encirled by the FedSuns. It also seems that the Jihad and Dark Ages had the Bulls "liberating" the populace of the Pleaides Cluster while increasingly acting more like the tyrants they believe FedSuns to be. That in turn managed to keep an insurgency alive till at least 3145, which is not a great sign for further control of the cluster.
Reuniting with the Calderon Protectorate through marriage seems to be the focus for starting to heal the nation, but that's still trying to reunite two sides of a civil war. Marriage between untested rulers as the magic solution to bind the Concordat, Protectorate, and former Taurian worlds back together is also hopeful, and I'm not sure how well it will actually pan out.
CapCon expanding into the Concordat, Taurian worlds independent rather than be under a military junta, the Calderon marriage alliance still years away, and TauCon being short of allies makes me think of a nation dangling over an abyss. I seriously hope that the nation turns over a new leaf, and think that it would be cool to see the Bulls confonting the scars and consequences that long term paranoia (rather than healthy suspicion) has left on the nation. Heck, I kind of hope to see a limited TauCon and FedSun military action to push CapCon back now that the Confederation is a clear and present danger to the continued existence of the Concordat. Not sure that would ever happen, but when you've hit rock bottom the only way to go is up. Or die.
With Dominions Divided coming, my question for the thread is where do you hope TauCon will go from here and where you think it actually will go? Most important of all what would you do if you Protector Kaff Doru right now?
Welcome to the Periphery side Pondering Radish!
Yours is a pretty good question actually. Now i will give you my own PoV from what i read from the books.
The TC touch rock botton in 3127 when the Protector at that time threatened to use nukes against a planet leaving the Concordat, and Doru took the power. Since then the guy is playing both the military and civilian aspect of ruling what is left of the TC while doing juggling on a rope, so to say, but looks like he was doing a good job. If you read the TROs, you see the TC is actually making mechs and machines with a tech level according to the current, with XL engines, DHS, ER lasers, and more advanced stuff like glaze armor for example. IIRC there was a line about TTI making new factories to compensate for what they lost in Sterope. And the CapCom front seems really quiet now that the CC invasion of the FS is at a pause, and Liao full attention is focused in the RoTS worlds (meanwhile some new things are developing badly for them in the last book).
Now, if you check Shattered Fortress, looks like the unification is something a lot of people were looking for, and even planets like Sterope will rejoin on the day of the weeding (3 August 3157). Now, i dont think the kids will be alone to rule the nation. Both Doru and Calderon seems like competent leaders, and i am sure both will act like advisers (mostly Doru, that seems is using the marriage to get his family into the traditional ruling family).
Now, as for the future, we still have to see what Dominions Divided would do to the TC, but i really hope the authors give the TC a break, and allows it to began its healing, and maybe retook some of the planets lost to Liao, or even finally make peace for once with the FS.
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It would be nice to see the TC finally catch good breaks, and get on the right side of things, instead of continuing the down slide.
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I hope so. Previous to them totally giving in to paranoia, they were my favourite SW faction.
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Thanks for the welcome!
The TC touch rock botton in 3127 when the Protector at that time threatened to use nukes against a planet leaving the Concordat, and Doru took the power. Since then the guy is playing both the military and civilian aspect of ruling what is left of the TC while doing juggling on a rope, so to say, but looks like he was doing a good job. If you read the TROs, you see the TC is actually making mechs and machines with a tech level according to the current, with XL engines, DHS, ER lasers, and more advanced stuff like glaze armor for example. IIRC there was a line about TTI making new factories to compensate for what they lost in Sterope. And the CapCom front seems really quiet now that the CC invasion of the FS is at a pause, and Liao full attention is focused in the RoTS worlds (meanwhile some new things are developing badly for them in the last book).
I hadn't realized that the Taurian Concordat had managed to get that far forward to be honest. I was too busy being frustrated at how the Brahma's weapon design comes across as a jumbled mess and an inability to find an official miniature to realize that the Brahma production means TauCon can make 300 XL engines, ER medium laser, Streak SRMs, AMS, Case and double heat sinks. I also latched a bit too hard on the TauCon having to work with the Raven Alliance to manage to make the Cadaver, and took it to sound like TauCon was still reeling production wise from the Jihad.
Now, if you check Shattered Fortress, looks like the unification is something a lot of people were looking for, and even planets like Sterope will rejoin on the day of the weeding (3 August 3157). Now, i dont think the kids will be alone to rule the nation. Both Doru and Calderon seems like competent leaders, and i am sure both will act like advisers (mostly Doru, that seems is using the marriage to get his family into the traditional ruling family).
That does give me hope that from the way things look in Shattered Fortress that the writers are wanting to reunite the Taurian Concordat and the Calderon Protectorate. I am wondering what the major hurdle that the Bulls will face during reuniting, since this universe doesn't like nice things unless they dispense murder. Maybe Grossbach and its government throwing a hurdle or assassins at the new rulers?
It would be nice to see the TC finally catch good breaks, and get on the right side of things, instead of continuing the down slide.
I for one don't mind the downward slide the Bulls took during the Jihad and Dark Age. It was a lot of the negative sides of Taurian culture bubbling up to the forefront and forcing the nation to face it's issues. I feel like it give the Taurian Concordat a lot to confront going forward, and also gives the nation character in my opinion.
However, I do worry that allying with the FedSuns might be a step too far for the Taurian Concordat even now. Between a centuries old paranoia and hatred, the game of strategic weapons tag during the Jihad, and the entire issue of the Pleaides I'm not sure the FedSuns and TauCon could come together for more than a fleeting alliance during a military operation. Not allying with the FedSuns could have it's own issues down the line though if Alaric Ward can convince the Federated Suns to join his new Star League in exchange for military help with the Draconis Combine. The Taurian Concordat has a great record with Star Leagues and Successor states that are members of those Leagues.
What I would really like to see if I can't get an alliance is a decent medium trooper mech designed and manufactured by the ilKhan Taurian Concordat. Maybe a redesign of the Talos with current era tech?
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I could see Julian making some sort of deal with the Taurians in both the Concordant and Protectorate to help secure at least one of his borders. Maybe even buying some equipment and mechs from them to help rebuild his forces faster. But I doubt they would be able to come together to launch an attack on the Capellans even if it was as a distraction to help reclaim FedSuns and Taurian systems the Capellans stole. Just not enough trust on either side to make a stable push. Plus pretty sure Julian is trying to get a treaty or cease-fire in place on the Capellan front to move his focus to New Avalon and the Draconis Combine. So at least for now a joint attack with the Taurians on the Capellans isn't likely.
What I could see happening is that Julian lays the groundwork for a possible future attack with the recombined Taurian Concordant/Protectorate. To happen after the marriage has happened maybe as a "wedding gift" That gives them roughly 5-6 years to plan and train for the fight together so the Tuarians are ready to work with each other. And they can be played off as tension-lowering exercises and operations in the lead-up to reunification. As well as pirate smashing operations in the former Taurian sphere of influence to get more of the worlds to rejoin as well.
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Oh god another state wedding to kick off a war against the CC.
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Oh god another state wedding to kick off a war against the CC.
It's tradition. In fact, I hear the NACC is considering replacing "you may now kiss the bride" with "you may now steal from the Cappies".
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It makes some sense. If the FedSuns and Taurians can agree and coordinate they can split the Capellans response by starting their individual attacks on separate ends in the first wave. Better if they stagger the invasions. Have the FedSuns hit in the coreward parts. And when the Capellans redeploy troops from other areas to the North have the Taurians hit their worlds in the South. Make the troops moving take more time to get to the fronts and maybe have some of them turn around to deal with each invasion. And if the FedSuns launch another wave near the Taurian front to hit the Capellans there in the back while they are fighting the Taurians. A way to make some sort of peace afterwards is if the FedSuns gave any Taurian worlds they conquered back to the Concordat instead of keeping them. Would make the deal transactional which is about the best we can hope for really.
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Well we already saw some more Taurian gains with the joint production of the new Toros from the latest Shrapnel alongside the Calderon Protectorate. Given that the Taurians also have access to IS Omnis in the ilClan era, I'd say somebody contacted them to help out, whether Capellan or Davion. You don't just gain access to one the best designs in the game, the Avatar Omnimech because you opened up trade negotiations with them. Either Julian really buried the hatchet and the Taurians are fighting Capellans (which would be sweet poetic justice given the Triple Alliance), or the Capellans decided they needed Taurian help against the Davions or even Clan Wolf. If the latter, that would be hilarious watching the Taurians fight against Clan Woof Woof and their various servant Clans.
I doubt that's the case though.
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Well we already saw some more Taurian gains with the joint production of the new Toros from the latest Shrapnel alongside the Calderon Protectorate. Given that the Taurians also have access to IS Omnis in the ilClan era, I'd say somebody contacted them to help out, whether Capellan or Davion. You don't just gain access to one the best designs in the game, the Avatar Omnimech because you opened up trade negotiations with them. Either Julian really buried the hatchet and the Taurians are fighting Capellans (which would be sweet poetic justice given the Triple Alliance), or the Capellans decided they needed Taurian help against the Davions or even Clan Wolf. If the latter, that would be hilarious watching the Taurians fight against Clan Woof Woof and their various servant Clans.
I doubt that's the case though.
Both the Wolf Empire and the "Star League" are far too distant for the Taurians to be fighting. It just doesn't make sense. And getting access doesn't mean you are fighting for a side. In fact getting access to the Avatar doesn't really need all that much it is part of the Inner Sphere's first attempts at making Omnimechs. So it is old but proven technology at this point. It is most certainly something that could be traded with others.
It is also unlikely that even if the Capellans offered it to the Taurians that they would accept. Fighting the FedSuns is what caused them their current problems and the leadership and population now that to be the case.
If Julian did give it to them then he might have come to some deal but it is by no means a burying of the Hatchet. The taurians have simply done too much for it to go away like that. Again he might have made a deal and some peace settlement to secure that flank but he isn't going to be able to get them to join in on the fighting right now without some massive incentives.
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The interesting thing is that the Taurian concordat under Doru seems to have scaled back any attack against the suns. Heck when the Confederation ravaged the suns the concordat just watched. They even allowed supply runs in the small bubble of remaining Fedsuns territory go through unmolested. They either had sympath for the suns or they now hate the Capellans way more then the Suns. I mean the Suns only struck hard (and I mean hard when we see the Roughrider rampage during the Jihad) because the Concordat struck first. The Capellans though took what they wanted without any reason (and let's not forget how sun Tzu screwed the Taurians in the Trinity Alliance)
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In the post-Jihad wrap-up, the Concordat and Protectorate actually entered something of an awkward, muted, half-willing partnership with the FedSuns—even going so far as to have a jointly-staffed WarShip. Now, they didn't just drop all hostilities, come together hand-in-hand, and sing Kumbaya, but they at least shared the agreement that their misgivings for each other wasn't worth turning the coreward Periphery and Capellan March into a cluster of irradiated, uninhabitable rocks. Taurian saber-rattling hardliners mostly accepted this mutual shift to maintaining peace as the Concordat had gotten a bit too aggressive during the Jihad, and now qualified as more than just an unstable annoyance on the Feds' coreward border—and despite the desire to see some peace the Feddies could and would have wiped most of the Concordat out.
Really, though, at the end of it all post-Jihad, the Feddies and Taurians were both just incredibly tired of fighting. The whole disaster with the Capellan March where the Haseks decided that it was long past time to purge the Capellans, with no care for how their actions affected the wider planning of the rest of the FedSuns, along with years of brutal fighting on New Avalon with an absentee First Princess having to sneak orders and encouragement through a network of protective agents, and finally of course large contributions to Stone's war effort had completely and utterly worn the Feddies out and left them quite war-weary. The Taurians fared little better, with a protracted, overextended war effort yielding at best utterly pyrrhic victories, the whole effort completely destroying the Taurian economy, all exacerbated by their former WoB allies turning out to be fair-weather friends. Both sides needed a break from fighting, due to both logistical strain and sheer exhaustion. Continuing their conflict simply was not an option, and would almost certainly produce more deserters than anything else.
And, well, when your mutual neighbor is the Capellan Confederation, which was still miffed about the whole Hasek situation, and had not-too-long-ago had a bad breakup with the Concordat, well... Keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and the enemy of your enemy closest.
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The interesting thing is that the Taurian concordat under Doru seems to have scaled back any attack against the suns. Heck when the Confederation ravaged the suns the concordat just watched. They even allowed supply runs in the small bubble of remaining Fedsuns territory go through unmolested. They either had sympath for the suns or they now hate the Capellans way more then the Suns. I mean the Suns only struck hard (and I mean hard when we see the Roughrider rampage during the Jihad) because the Concordat struck first. The Capellans though took what they wanted without any reason (and let's not forget how sun Tzu screwed the Taurians in the Trinity Alliance)
Well, it is rather notable when you look through the profile for Doru that he enlisted to fight the Capellans on the Laconis Front... when underage.
Now if you look at his age... that would put the Laconis Front invasion... sometime around 3106-3107ish. IE: Immediately after the Victoria War.
So it certainly sounds like the Cappies got a little sore from not exactly covering themselves in glory fighting the FedSuns and decided to go make themselves feel better by beating on the Taurians for a bit.
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You don't just gain access to one the best designs in the game, the Avatar Omnimech because you opened up trade negotiations with them. Either Julian really buried the hatchet and the Taurians are fighting Capellans (which would be sweet poetic justice given the Triple Alliance), or the Capellans decided they needed Taurian help against the Davions or even Clan Wolf.
The Avatar design is owned by Luthien Armor Works. If the Taurians are producing it, that may mean Yori's making money on the side selling to a faction that may or may not come to blows with either a traditional rival in the Davions or a rabid dog needing to be put down like the Capellans.
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Mhm. The Dracs have a long history of selling and licensing designs to the Concordat at a reasonable price (see the Slayer, for example).
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The Avatar is also available to damn near every state already so again it doesn't point to any faction specifically making an alliance.
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By that point the Avatar is produced by IIRC Cappies, FedSuns, FWL and I think Lyrans.
But not the Dracs...
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the Avatar and alot of the first gen IS omnis were licensed out to other people. Or maybe they are second Gen, idr. The avatar, sunder, and black hawk
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Luthien Armor Works was rebuilt after the Jihad, so they're making Omnis again. Maybe they're getting them through the Magistracy via the CC or the FWLas I figure the DC would need all of their stuff for fighting Ghost Bear, the Raven Alliance and Davion. I know the Taurians have to be getting some form of discount on the Clan stuff they've bought. Or the TC just decide to attack the CC and steal their Omnis like the Marian Hegemony did from the FWL.
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the Avatar and alot of the first gen IS omnis were licensed out to other people. Or maybe they are second Gen, idr. The avatar, sunder, and black hawk
If I remember correctly the Blackhawk and Avatar were licensed to Coventry Mechworks in the Lyran Alliance. Not sure if CMW was allowed to sell to everyone in the IS though. Comstar certainly bought some though the FedSuns might be on the banned list. The Confederation and Free Worlds might be too depending on Katherine's mood. Of course after the Jihad that might be different.
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Well, looks like the Taurians are finally making the Patton, a new version coming from the Patton (SB) from XTRO:Periphery. I wonder what brand is the LB-10X, as the Taurians were producing the Pontiac family of autocannons.
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Well their combat vehicle and tank branches of their military were always their main defense so them getting new designs and upgraded units seems like something they would do as they recover and expand. Helps them make a solid defense unit that can attack a target if needed.
I really hope that the Taurians and FedSuns put aside their issues for each other (mostly on the Taurian side) to take the fight to the greater threat on their border. Would be a nice change to the status quo they have lived in if they came together as allies even if it is only for that fight. So long as it doesn't go back to the way it was would allow for great new stories where both sides people need to adjust and come to terms with the new reality.
Plus they also still have to deal with the MoC that is ruled and heading towards some kind of merger.
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Well, looks like the Taurians are finally making the Patton, a new version coming from the Patton (SB) from XTRO:Periphery. I wonder what brand is the LB-10X, as the Taurians were producing the Pontiac family of autocannons.
Can I just say I kinda hate this, I do not feel the Patton (SB) is the right chassis for the job for the Taurians. Hear me out..
1). Requires a brand new support chain. (Parts, training, manufacturing lines OR very expensive imports that may be subject to interdiction)
2). Does not use components that are currently manufactured in the Concordat.
3). It's 16 Million a copy, that's ridiculously expensive for a SB Gauss, even tastefully stripping this of the sealing and Turbocharger to fit a SFE in only gets it down to roughly 3.4 Million apiece which is still spendy but still that 2/3 a Taurian lance versus one tank price difference.
If I were the Taurians I repurpose the Prowler chassis ( lose the floaty hull, add armor, re-gun with PPC and SRM/MG secondary in the turret..maybe LRM in the Hull) and I'm looking Roughly 2.3 million a pop...and I can manufacture everything domestically...seems smarter, but this is Battletech and I should know better.
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Can I just say I kinda hate this, I do not feel the Patton (SB) is the right chassis for the job for the Taurians. Hear me out..
1). Requires a brand new support chain. (Parts, training, manufacturing lines OR very expensive imports that may be subject to interdiction)
2). Does not use components that are currently manufactured in the Concordat.
3). It's 16 Million a copy, that's ridiculously expensive for a SB Gauss, even tastefully stripping this of the sealing and Turbocharger to fit a SFE in only gets it down to roughly 3.4 Million apiece which is still spendy but still that 2/3 a Taurian lance versus one tank price difference.
If I were the Taurians I repurpose the Prowler chassis ( lose the floaty hull, add armor, re-gun with PPC and SRM/MG secondary in the turret..maybe LRM in the Hull) and I'm looking Roughly 2.3 million a pop...and I can manufacture everything domestically...seems smarter, but this is Battletech and I should know better.
Well, the Patton SB was a prototype, not a production model. A very specialized prototype i have to say, with its capacity to fight in vacuum or hostile worlds. Outside of the SBG, the TC was able to produce all of its components at the time (3079), and the taurian Patton from RG 27 is from 3115, which gave enough time to the TC to streamline the support chain for it (which is not very consuming, its most "high-tech" component is the HFF armor).
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Love to see the TC getting some of Doru´s "common sense"™ and abandoning the caricature aspect of the "Davion Paranoia". Would have loved to read a bit more about Doru and how the stuff Dominion Divided could affect the incoming merge of the taurian nations.
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Yep! Quite pleased to see nothing terrible happened to the Bulls (or rather, that they didn't do anything terrible to themselves again) for once. I'd definitely like to see something that explains what exactly transpired between Hadji Doru taking off to the Magistracy and Kaff Doru becoming Protector.
I know we're fans of, well, peripheral factions in the setting, but it'd be nice to get some filling in on the Fronc Reaches and Filtvelt as well as the TC/CP.
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the incoming merge of the taurian nations.
*smiles in MUL management*
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*smiles in MUL management*
Dont lie, deep down we "like" this kind of things.....
*checks his still "on progress" Objective Raids and sobs*
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Yep! Quite pleased to see nothing terrible happened to the Bulls (or rather, that they didn't do anything terrible to themselves again) for once. I'd definitely like to see something that explains what exactly transpired between Hadji Doru taking off to the Magistracy and Kaff Doru becoming Protector.
I know we're fans of, well, peripheral factions in the setting, but it'd be nice to get some filling in on the Fronc Reaches and Filtvelt as well as the TC/CP.
yeah the Taurians had kind of become a bit of a one note joke for years, it's nice to see thats changing
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Anytime the Taurians can put hurt on the Favions and not come out as losers is a nice change. It's also good to see the Quixhote isn't dead either. As an aside, has anyone played any Taurian vs Davion battles with the rules from Dominions Divided?
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It's also good to see the Quixhote isn't dead either.
I think it's fair to mention that the Redemption wasn't actually seen in service. There was just the implication that it might be moved close to the front in the future.
If nobody else knows yet that the Redemption went missing (which is a strong possibility if the Republic Redemption was the same ship, and thus behind the wall), then the threat of using her still holds weight against their neighbors for now.
Also, we don't know how the Redemption would have ended up in Republic service in the first place. It could be that the Protectorate loaned the ship to the Republic in exchange for some service, resources, or a fat stack of cash. Or that the ship was in refit at a Terran yard when the wall went up and got Osman'ed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Agincourt_(1913)) into Republic service as a result. Since very few people outside the wall know the full details of what happened during the battle of Terra, this could mean that the Protectorate is still holding out some small hope of getting the ship back, either from some remnant of the Republic or striking a deal with the IlClan.
I'm not saying any of this is the case, of course, but I am saying it seems less likely to me for there to be two Quixote class frigates still around that both happen to be named Redemption.
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Has that been answered yet? I thought someone posted to tptb to see if it was a typo or something.
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Hello! Since this is the location for Taurian questions ... does anyone know of a source for all things Taurian manufacturing? Crouton Command is - as of 3141 - highly out of date. If not, something I can try to tackle. I would really like to see what the TC has been doing to recover from it's near demise and I am working on some technical readout style fiction pieces around things like an updated Vargr (I know it's from the video game, but it was in the Arano sourcebook!), and some omni vehicles. If anyone has a resource, please let me know! Thank you!
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Hello! Since this is the location for Taurian questions ... does anyone know of a source for all things Taurian manufacturing? Crouton Command is - as of 3141 - highly out of date. If not, something I can try to tackle. I would really like to see what the TC has been doing to recover from it's near demise and I am working on some technical readout style fiction pieces around things like an updated Vargr (I know it's from the video game, but it was in the Arano sourcebook!), and some omni vehicles. If anyone has a resource, please let me know! Thank you!
I don't have a particularly great source, but someone compiled a list of mechs on Reddit from various sources (most of which I have found confirmation of in BT documents): Thunderbolts, Warhammers, Marauders, Shadowhawk, Locust, Stinger, Clint, Wasp, Brahma, Wolverine, Marshal, Hatchetman, Commando, Toro, Griffin, Archer, Xanthos, Cadaver, Ostroc (also the Merlin which they missed).
They manufacture Astarion Battle Armor. Not sure on all the vehicles/aerospace, but I know they still manufacture J. Edgars and Drillsons in the IlClan from the latest rec guides.
Hope that's at least some help.
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Hello! Since this is the location for Taurian questions ... does anyone know of a source for all things Taurian manufacturing? Crouton Command is - as of 3141 - highly out of date. If not, something I can try to tackle. I would really like to see what the TC has been doing to recover from it's near demise and I am working on some technical readout style fiction pieces around things like an updated Vargr (I know it's from the video game, but it was in the Arano sourcebook!), and some omni vehicles. If anyone has a resource, please let me know! Thank you!
As far as i know, they are making these mechs:
Cadaver -1A/-T1
Commando -2D
Locust -5R/-5T/-5V
Quasit Militiamech -51M/-51P-/-51T
Stinger -5R/-5T
Valkyrie -QT2 (¿factory refit?)
Toro -A-6 / -A-12
Clint -3-4T
Griffin -4N
Phoenix Hawk -4W
Phoenix Primitive ¿maybe?
Shadow Hawk -7M
Archer -6W
Brahma -5A/-5B/-6T
Griffin Primitive ¿maybe?
Marauder -3R/-2T
Merlin -1D/-1E
Ostroc -4C/-5C
Ymir Primitive ¿maybe?
Warhammer -6Rb/-7A/-10T/-11T
Thunderbolt -9T
Thunderbolt Primitive ¿maybe?
Xanthos Primitive ¿maybe?
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Did a bit more digging and it looks like in addition to what Baldur posted
Vandenberg Mechanized Industries produces the Griffin 3M as well
Taurus Territorial MAY still produce the Wolverine and Marshall (the planet was destroyed with the meteor strike, but has been rebuilt - it's unclear what is being produced there still).
TTI also got rights from the Capellans to build a "new" Wasp (I'm not sure which one this is based on the MUL listings).
Pinard Protectorate Limited produces the Wasp 1A and 3A.
They have a variant of the Rifleman, (the 9T) but I can't find where or if they are produced by the Taurians or if they are a refit kit applied to outside purchased ones.
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Did a bit more digging and it looks like in addition to what Baldur posted
Vandenberg Mechanized Industries produces the Griffin 3M as well
Taurus Territorial MAY still produce the Wolverine and Marshall (the planet was destroyed with the meteor strike, but has been rebuilt - it's unclear what is being produced there still).
TTI also got rights from the Capellans to build a "new" Wasp (I'm not sure which one this is based on the MUL listings).
Pinard Protectorate Limited produces the Wasp 1A and 3A.
They have a variant of the Rifleman, (the 9T) but I can't find where or if they are produced by the Taurians or if they are a refit kit applied to outside purchased ones.
The -9T is a refit as far as i know (TRO:3085, page 250. The Marshal i think it was lotst with the asteroid attack, and the Taurian Wolverine was lost since the fall of the Star League. Would like to know the references for the Griffin -3M and the Wasp -3A production (the last one is a OWA variant IIRC).
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They're also producing the Royal Thunderbolt and the Royal Marauder on Taurus and New Vanderberg based on the MUL. I'm assuming TTI was finally rebuilt along with the Hatchetman line because I've never been able to find any source for all of these Hatchetmen 5S that pop up on the general Periphery MUL by the Early Republic, unless the Calderon Protectorate suddenly went full Oprah with Hatchetman production. They did get a lot of help from Davion after all.
The Marshal has two production lines one in Fronc (in HTP Fronc Reaches and the other at Detroit by the Early Republic. I can't think that there's enough excess production for Detroit to provide for the Capellans, the Canopians, and the Taurians, let alone the rest of the Periphery, so maybe the Taurians rebuilt the Marshal line as well.
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They're also producing the Royal Thunderbolt and the Royal Marauder on Taurus and New Vanderberg based on the MUL. I'm assuming TTI was finally rebuilt along with the Hatchetman line because I've never been able to find any source for all of these Hatchetmen 5S that pop up on the general Periphery MUL by the Early Republic, unless the Calderon Protectorate suddenly went full Oprah with Hatchetman production. They did get a lot of help from Davion after all.
The Marshal has two production lines one in Fronc (in HTP Fronc Reaches and the other at Detroit by the Early Republic. I can't think that there's enough excess production for Detroit to provide for the Capellans, the Canopians, and the Taurians, let alone the rest of the Periphery, so maybe the Taurians rebuilt the Marshal line as well.
The Marauder -2R became the -2T by the Dark Age (only diference is a LB-5X instead of the regular AC-5). Acording to nckestrel, the VMI line in Pinard build the Thunderbolt -5Sb until they changed to the -9T. The Marshall keeps beign a good question.The Hatchetman -5S i assume are old mechs that with time ended up in the Periphery while the rest of the IS used never models. Another good question for TPTB.
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The -9T is a refit as far as i know (TRO:3085, page 250. The Marshal i think it was lotst with the asteroid attack, and the Taurian Wolverine was lost since the fall of the Star League. Would like to know the references for the Griffin -3M and the Wasp -3A production (the last one is a OWA variant IIRC).
The Griffin 3M is from Objectives Periphery page 5 (at least according to Sarna, don’t have it). it says it’s produced at the VMI plant on Illiushin, which I don’t believe has ever been attacked. The Wasp 3A is listed on Sarna as being produced by Pinard Protectorates, though it doesn’t list a source and reading a bit more into it it looks like the plant was destroyed during the Jihad.
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The Griffin 3M is from Objectives Periphery page 5 (at least according to Sarna, don’t have it). it says it’s produced at the VMI plant on Illiushin, which I don’t believe has ever been attacked.
Objectives periphery does state that the Taurians were still building the Griffin at Illiushin, but it does not give a model number. TRO 3085 however notes that the Concordat started building the GRF-4N model Griffin towards the end of the Jihad.
Going by the Master Unit list, the 3M Griffin does not appear on the Taurian list, but the 2N and the 4N do (in addition to the classic 1N). So assuming the line is fully modernized, I would have to assume that it's building 2Ns and 4Ns.
The Wasp 3A is outworlds/raven alliance exclusive, so that's not Taurian built either. The Concordat was building the 3L Wasp before the Jihad, but I don't know if they were able to keep up production after the breakup with the Capellans (because of the stealth armor). The 3P variant is at least partly based on the 3L, so it could be built there, but it's only described as a "periphery variant" and has "periphery general" as its availability listing.
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Anyway, here's a list of battlemechs the Taurian Concordat has built, is building, or may have built. It's broken up into three groups. The first is the mechs the Concordat was producing before the clan invasion. The second section covers mechs definitively listed as having been produced in the Concordat since then.
The last group are "possible" that the Concordat may have built, but for which I have no proof of.
Also, there's a fair bit of overlap in designs and roles, and it's probably best to assume that older models will cease production as new ones take their place, but the details are fuzzy or completely absent, so use your best judgement.
This list omits primitive battlemechs, as in general production of those units ceased once the jihad was over. It also omits designs that were created solely as field refits, like the Taurian clint.
EDIT: Added the phoenix hawk 4W.
EDIT 2: added Clint and Merlin
EDIT3: Thunderbolt 7M and Valkyrie QT1
Pre-Clan Mech Production
Locust 1V
Wasp 1A
Stinger 3R
Griffin 1N
Thunderbolt 5S
Warhammer 6R
Archer 2R
Marauder 3R
Commando 2D
Later production
Hatchetman 3F (clan invasion, production lost during FC civil war)
Marshal X1 (clan invasion, production lost during Jihad)
Locust 5V (before jihad)
Stinger 5R (before jihad)
Wasp 3L (before jihad)
Shadow Hawk 7M (before jihad)
Ostroc 4C (before jihad)
Archer 6W (before jihad)
Phoenix Hawk 4W (Jihad era)
Brahma (Jihad era)
Griffin 4N (Jihad era)
Ostroc 5C (Jihad era)
Thunderbolt 9T (Jihad era)
Warhammer 10T (Jihad era)
Warhammer 11T (Jihad era)
Thunderbolt 5Sb (Jihad era)
Warhamer 6Rb (Jihad era)
Marauder MAD-2R (Jihad era)
Valkyrie QT1 (very end of the Jihad)
Marauder MAD-2T (republic era)
Cadaver (Republic era)
Warhammer 7A (Republic era)
Clint 3-4T (Republic era)
Merlin 1D (Republic era)
Merlin 1E (Republic era)
Thunderbolt 7M
Possible?
Commando 5S (only because the line is still in service and it's on the periphery general list)
Stinger 5T (periphery built)
Locust 5T (periphery built)
Griffin 2N (at least available to the concordat)
Archer 4M (only because the archer line is still in service and it is on the periphery list)
Archer 4M2 (only because the archer line is still in service and it is on the periphery list)
Wasp 3P (periphery built)
Hatchetman 5S (periphery exclusive by the dark age)
Marshal 2L (available to the taurian concordat though I think it might have been built on Detroit only)
Toro TR-B-9 (available to the concordat by the Ilclan era, but I don't know if the concordat is producing it)
Toro TR-B-19 (available to the concordat by the Ilclan era, but I don't know if the concordat is producing it)
Clint 3-3T (May or may not have been built on Macleoud's land rather than a refit)
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Yeah, there is definitely a possibility the Griffin line had been modernized and is producing the 4Ns and 2Ns.
You can also definitely add the T variant Clints and Merlin 1D and 1E to your list as they were featured as being Taurian builds in the recent Rec guide series (off the top of my head I think the Clint’s started in Jihad and Merlins in early Republic).
I would also guess the Taurians are still producing stealth armor as they start having the Atlas S4 in Dark Age, and they definitely do not have an Atlas line, so I’m guessing they are refits of current Atlases they have. They are also still have the Rifleman 9T, which I’m guessing they are getting the Riflemen from the Fronc Reaches (who is the other faction with access), and out fitting them with stealth armor.
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I've added the Clint 4T and the two Merlin configurations to the produced section.
I've also listed the Clint 3T as "possible". While the Taurians were definitely operating them during the Jihad, Objectives periphery doesn't list a manufacturing line for the Clint just after the conflict, so most likely these were field refits of existing mechs rather than new production. And while the Taurians are definitely building Clints now, there's nothing definite about whether or not the 3T was ever built there or if the plant just built the 4T.
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The Toros are from the Protectorate Arms factories in the Calderon Protectorate based on the Toro article fr.om Shrapnel 10 page 184. There was a primitive Toro line on Illushin that could have been upgraded to produce full up Toros, but I haven't see any text evidence of that.
Vandenberg Mechanical Industries is also producing the Valkyrie QT1 as of 3081 at one of their three locations (Technical Readout 3085 sheets and page 186 of Shrapnel 10). There's also another Archer line VMI has that could be making 4M Archers or Archer 5Ws and the Thunderbolt line on Pinard which was making 7Ms. I'm curious if the T-bolt 9T line is a rebuilt TTI line and the Royal T-bolt is being built on Pinard.
Also the Taurians are making the Stinger 5T as per Objectives Periphery page 7.
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The Toros are from the Protectorate Arms factories in the Calderon Protectorate based on the Toro article fr.om Shrapnel 10 page 184. There was a primitive Toro line on Illushin that could have been upgraded to produce full up Toros, but I haven't see any text evidence of that.
Vandenberg Mechanical Industries is also producing the Valkyrie QT1 as of 3081 at one of their three locations (Technical Readout 3085 sheets and page 186 of Shrapnel 10). There's also another Archer line VMI has that could be making 4M Archers or Archer 5Ws and the Thunderbolt line on Pinard which was making 7Ms. I'm curious if the T-bolt 9T line is a rebuilt TTI line and the Royal T-bolt is being built on Pinard.
Also the Taurians are making the Stinger 5T as per Objectives Periphery page 7.
Objectives periphery doesn't mention a model number of stinger on page 7. But page 7 does add credence to the clint 3T being new production rather than a refit by mentiong Clint production is expected to "resume".
(Honestly, it's likely that the Locust and Stinger T variants are being built in the concordat, but I haven't found anything definite, and they're shared among the Capellans, Canopeans, and Taurians in such a way that the "T" designation could just as easily stand for "trinity")
I don't have shrapnel #10 myself, but I'll add those to the list.
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True. They also produce the Trinity Battle Armor as well.
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Btw - what was the shrapnel about that has all those details?
I always love the TC building things. :bow:
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I've added the Clint 4T and the two Merlin configurations to the produced section.
I've also listed the Clint 3T as "possible". While the Taurians were definitely operating them during the Jihad, Objectives periphery doesn't list a manufacturing line for the Clint just after the conflict, so most likely these were field refits of existing mechs rather than new production. And while the Taurians are definitely building Clints now, there's nothing definite about whether or not the 3T was ever built there or if the plant just built the 4T.
Objectives says this about the Clint:
Limping along at a low production rate that should increase in fits and jumps as engineers get lines repaired and in use once more, the TDF expects that Clint and Stinger production will resume eventually.TRO:3050U mentions it entering service about the same time as the -6S, and both are listed as introduced in 3069. The MacLeod's Land´s PPI facility was almost destroyed by the Hansen Roughriders in 3074, and Objective is set in 3076. They were already producing the Clint (dont know wich model) by 3067 acording to Handbook: MPS, page 119.
As for the Archer, while the RATs are not a reliable way to know what a faction produce at a given moment, if you check FM:3145, the Taurians have the Archer -6W in their list, but by Dominions Divided, they sport the -4M2. So, it would not wild to assume that they maybe changed the Archer line from -6W to -4M2.
Also jgodwin17, while Sarna is good to look for book references, dont take all of it as reliable information. The Sarna guys are making a very good work, but there are geological strata of mistake, or people adding fan content to it.
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The Toros are from the Protectorate Arms factories in the Calderon Protectorate based on the Toro article fr.om Shrapnel 10 page 184. There was a primitive Toro line on Illushin that could have been upgraded to produce full up Toros, but I haven't see any text evidence of that.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=64553.msg1485281#msg1485281 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=64553.msg1485281#msg1485281)
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Also jgodwin17, while Sarna is good to look for book references, dont take all of it as reliable information. The Sarna guys are making a very good work, but there are geological strata of mistake, or people adding fan content to it.
Sure, it's like any Wiki site. But for those of us who don't own every BT publication, it's a good place to start, and at the end of the day I'm not using it write a scholarly journal article or a historical nonfiction, just for playing robot games.