New Rules/Errata for Refits/Customs/Repair

[Hellraiser]

So the new rules for Repair/Customization/Refits were posted in another thread.

I was giving them a serious read & over all I really like the simplicity of them.

https://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/StratOps-Refitting-Revised-Final.pdf


It seems as if everything is very broken down into "Rip It Out" = A

"Install It" = B-F

From what I can see a lot of the specific grades for the "Type" of item have been removed & for the crit slot limits.

Armor is down to A

Upgrade to DHS seems to be B or C grade now depending on where the new DHS have to go.

Class-C seems a little odd since it says swapping locations of a LL & LRM5+Ammo is more difficult than it would be to rip both out & replace them with a PPC & ML.
Honestly it makes no sense to me there.

I'm also not sure why there is a note in Class-B about Removing & Adding the same item in the same refit.
I don't actually understand when that scenario would ever come up?

I love that CASE & Gyros got dropped down to D-Grade.

I feel its a little odd that Engine/Size was moved UP from D to E when Gyro went down from F to D.
But the fact that engine Size&Type can both be done at D if its a proper "Refit Kit" instead of a "Customization" makes it all worth while.
I guess I just won't be doing a 1-off customization to install an XL, which I would never have done in a campaign anyway, lol.

Also nice to see confirmation that turret weight is D now & you can full on add one in a factory.   Turret for your Saladin anyone?

And they keep saying "Component", but occasionally weapon.
What would you define "Component" as?   Literally anything on the mech right?
Hand Actuator?
"Invisible" Endo Slot?
ECM?
"Invisible" Ferro Slot?
MASC?


Anyway I'd heard they had made changes but this is the first time I'm seeing them since published & over all I really like what I see.

Short of Endo & TSM & Cockpits it looks like just about anything can be done w/ a Refit Kit & a Drop Ship or Field Base.

[Xotl]

I'm glad you like them.  The main goals were to simplify the process, make it clearer (since the old one generated too many reasonable questions), and to better fit what we know of canon refits.

Components are literally anything except weapons.  Weapons are separated out because they're the most common refit type, and generally treated simpler than anything else.  Components should probably be defined here: I'll see about getting that in the eventual SO or whatever reprint.

Class C is more difficult than B because B involves taking an established place where equipment was already mounted and messing with it, while C is cramming something into a place where previously there was no allowance for it.  It's a lot easier to take a PPC and monkey that into an autocannon housing than it is to rip out a RT PPC and replace that with a LT autocannon.

The Class B note about removing and then adding something addresses what otherwise would be a loophole.  I take a medium laser and remove it and put it back in the same place.  Now that location counts as a "location where something was removed in the same refit", meaning that I can cram an AC/20 into that location as a Class B refit instead of a Class C.

Your question about ferro and endo slots is addressed under Customization Basics.

I hope they work well for your game.

[Frabby]

Does FF armor or Endo Steel remove crits from the diagram (that's how I always understood it) or should these crits be treated like any other component and can be moved around during refits?

[Xotl]

I don't understand what "remove crits from the diagram" means in this case.  I mean, yes, they occupy critical slots, but I'm not sure what you're specifically asking about.

[Hellraiser]

Components are literally anything except weapons.  Weapons are separated out because they're the most common refit type, and generally treated simpler than anything else.

Class C is more difficult than B because B involves taking an established place where equipment was already mounted and messing with it, while C is cramming something into a place where previously there was no allowance for it.  It's a lot easier to take a PPC and monkey that into an autocannon housing than it is to rip out a RT PPC and replace that with a LT autocannon.

The Class B note about removing and then adding something addresses what otherwise would be a loophole.  I take a medium laser and remove it and put it back in the same place.  Now that location counts as a "location where something was removed in the same refit", meaning that I can cram an AC/20 into that location as a Class B refit instead of a Class C.

Your question about ferro and endo slots is addressed under Customization Basics.

I'm glad for the clarity on "Components", it helps for one of the scenarios I had when upgrading Valkyrie-QD to QD3, for some reason the authors moved the ML's to the LA with the QD3 & have a hand actuator on the RA, so it looks like mirror image instead of the traditional set up.
I don't think I ever got an answer to that one in the rules area.

Another similar one was the remove of the LA "hand/claw/fist" of the Awesome-8Q when upgrading to 9Q.


I see, I think I was misreading Class-C when I mentioned the LRM5/LL swap.
What Class-C appears to be saying is if you Move something to where there was nothing.  Like say moving the Panther's PPC from RA to LA.

Where as my example was saying, swap a LL with LRM5/Ammo directly between each other's slots. 
For example the Griffin-1S & moving the RA Laser & Torso LRM5 & flipping those 2 slots with each other.
But when reading closer that appears to be Class-B since the locations are not "new/empty" ones.  They had a weapon there already.

I see, so under your Class-B example, just adding an AC20 would be C, but if someone tried to remove/add a ML then the AC20 becomes B.
However if they just removed the ML & put an AC20 where the ML was then that does appear to be a Class-B still.


Oh nice, I didn't catch that part about roll again slots in basics.

That is much better than what I got on the boards a couple years ago.

From a fluff perspective it really bothered me that moving the endo-reroll was E-Grade previously.

[Hellraiser]

Does FF armor or Endo Steel remove crits from the diagram (that's how I always understood it) or should these crits be treated like any other component and can be moved around during refits?

I assume what you mean by "remove crits" is "Reduce the # of slots available"  So if you had 5 endo in the RT you would be stuck having a max of 7 to work with.

I think they can be moved freely now & don't count as any specific "grade" process.

Note that, during a customization, either moving slots of an existing item within its location(s) or moving any “reroll” slots (e.g. armor, structure, and myomer slots) from one location to another has no effect on the process

So everything still has the same "max" # of open slots,  R/L Torso = 12,  Leg = 2 etc.
But at some point those 14 for Endo have to be used.
They don't restrict what actual items can go anywhere else based on where they are on the RS.

This makes me happy since the Guillotine-8D was supposed be a simple upgrade to the 5M & the 5M a simple upgrade from the 3N, but the Endo didn't match up on all 3 RS so it looked like they wouldn't be simple A & D class refits previously.

[Frabby]

I don't understand what "remove crits from the diagram" means in this case.  I mean, yes, they occupy critical slots, but I'm not sure what you're specifically asking about.

They're "roll again" crits and thus indestructible. I always took that to mean they don't represent an installed item but merely a reduction of available crit space. Consequently, I thought they were fixed design elements in a given unit and couldn't be moved around like you could with items, not even over the course of a refit.

[Daryk]

Now all we need are canon refit kits to remove half a ton of MG ammo from the OG 'mechs and add armor (e.g., Stinger, Phoenix Hawk, Crusader, Warhammer, et al.)!  Class A with half time and -2 bonus...

[Hellraiser]

Now all we need are canon refit kits to remove half a ton of MG ammo from the OG 'mechs and add armor (e.g., Stinger, Phoenix Hawk, Crusader, Warhammer, et al.)!  Class A with half time and -2 bonus...

Not bad, but, even better, half the MG ammo to add CASE  :)

[Daryk]

Once CASE becomes available, sure...  ^-^

[RifleMech]

How about a refit kit swapping a half ton of machine gun ammo for a Recon Camera for the Scouts so they can act as better spotters?


edit
filled in missing words. Dang gremlins!

[Daryk]

I think your question is missing a word or two... I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

[RifleMech]

Sorry about that.   Hope I got it fixed. I was wondering about a refit kit using a Recon Camera instead of armor to replace the half ton of MG ammo.

[Daryk]

Could totally work, at least for the heavier units. The ones with only 4 points of head armor, though... they NEED the armor.

[RifleMech]

Could totally work, at least for the heavier units. The ones with only 4 points of head armor, though... they NEED the armor.

True. I was thinking about the Locust when I thought of it though. It's got 8 points of hear armor.

[Daryk]

The Locust is an excellent candidate for the Recon Camera.  Even better would be Fractional Accounting that gets it a little more armor too...

[Scotty]

Talking about the errata/rules is probably fine since this thread still exists, but if your post includes specific examples it probably should be in Fan Designs.

[Daryk]

I actually hadn't noticed it WASN'T down there (where it belongs)...

[Hellraiser]

I don't mind if it gets moved.

But I didn't put it in Fan Designs since its a rules/errata thread.

[Hellraiser]

I'm starting a list of units that I now need to give a 2nd look at due to the new rules.

Things that were not doable w/o a Factory before but now are.

Most are 3050 era but a couple are more Jihad/SLDF/Uniques

Some of my favorites so far.

Commando-2Dr
Javelin-11B
Vindicator-3L
Dragon-5Nr
Rifleman-3Cr, 9T ?
Crusader-5M, 5S
ThunderBolt-9SE
Marauder-2R
Orion-1K-Kerensky
Zeus-9S
BattleMaster-3M
Stalker-3Fb, 3Fk, 6M, 7D
Highlander-732b
Atlas-7D-H2
KingCrab-010

[Xotl]

Just remember that engine work is only non-factory if there's official factory support behind it (i.e. a refit kit).  If it's just something some random unit cooked up and does themselves, then you've got to get a factory to do it for you still.

The change in the simplicity of gyro work is because one of the ONN refits had a gyro alteration as part of the design.

[Hellraiser]

Just remember that engine work is only non-factory if there's official factory support behind it (i.e. a refit kit).  If it's just something some random unit cooked up and does themselves, then you've got to get a factory to do it for you still.

The change in the simplicity of gyro work is because one of the ONN refits had a gyro alteration as part of the design.

Yeah, I know, the above doesn't match the fluff for the Charger-SB "Challenger" variant which is a shame.

PS.  The list I'm working on is for Refit Kits which is why a few XLs are in the list.

[Atarlost]

I'm glad you like them.  The main goals were to simplify the process, make it clearer (since the old one generated too many reasonable questions), and to better fit what we know of canon refits.

Isn't the Challenger supposed to originate with someone not at the Charger factory?  That involves an engine swap, which is not factory only. 

[RifleMech]

I thought so too. Fractional accounting would make it even better. It'd probably make a lot of units better.

[Frabby]

Yeah, I know, the above doesn't match the fluff for the Charger-SB "Challenger" variant which is a shame.

The fluff does work around that by stressing how Steward Bell was a certified Master Tech. It boils down to him creating what the rules call a Refit Kit for the -SB variant.

(Of course, while the CGR-SB is canon by virtue of being in a RS published by FASA, the fluff was from BattleTechnology Magazine and is now apocryphal.)

[Hellraiser]

Yes, it was a Merc unit that created the SB model, originated in BT Magazine.


As for Fractional Accounting,  while I didn't mind them getting rid of it, the ONE complaint I actually have over it was HOW they got rid of it.

I've said it before but I'll say it again, it should be ROUND TO 1/4 TON.

In a world of Clan MGs,  Clan Micro Lasers,  and 50% of ENDO & XL engine users (roughly),   we REALLY need to round to 1/4 tons.

I didn't mind getting rid of the .05 stuff for the smallest of vehicles that created little .4 or .25 Cargo issues, but I would have liked to see things round to 1/4 ton to account for the many times that fraction comes into play.

[RifleMech]

With .25 machine guns rounding to a quarter ton would seem to make sense.

I also saw it as built with Fractional Accounting as the top of line units compared to standard production variants. Like ordering a car with all the upgrades and bells and whistles.

[Daryk]

Dropping it from the core rules also broke the Warrior VTOL.

[guardiandashi]

there were a lot of mechs from TRO3050 (origional) that were arguably broken by the change as well.

the timberwolf/madcat went from 28 tons of pod space to 27.5  (originally it had the same amount of pod weight as the vulture / mad dog) the difference was .25 tons from the engine, and endosteel

[Daryk]

That's the thing that surprised me most about the change... it gave a nerf to the clans...

[Hellraiser]

It broke a LOT of designs from Vehicles of TRO3025/26 to Mechs from TRO 3050/55.

Pretty much any vehicle that was under 20 tons &/or was a Hover/Vtol took a hit.

Any mech tonnage ending in 5 with Endo took a hit.
Any mech/ASF mounting XL who's SFE weight ended in .5 tons took a hit.


Then TW/TM came around & they change "Rounding at .5" to be "Round Off any fraction" for Ferro Armor.


When I think of all those nerfs & new RS that had to be created & just those 2 changes could have been avoided or at least minimized down to just be a few small Hover/Vtols & zero mechs............  Ugh, just bad decisions there IMHO.


But we are a bit off topic now.


So about those new rules.

It appears that the Kit cost from the factory is 10% of what is included.

So what would be included exactly?


For Example.

Lets take everyone's favorite Wolverine series.... 2 examples.

6R > 6M & 6M to 7M


So as I'm reading it, the Kit is literally JUST the parts that would be different?

So for a 6R shift to 6M.

1 Set of Blueprints/Instructions +
1 Large Laser
1 Medium Laser
2 Heat Sinks
1 Ton of Standard Armor    (You start with 9.5 & this adds just 1 ton?)

That's it?
So the cost is the total for the 5 items x 10%?



Example #2 - Wolverine-6M to 7M

1 Set of Blueprints/Instructions +
2 ERLL
1 275 XL Fusion Engine.
1 MASC Unit - 3 Ton Variety.
12 DHS

(I forget if there is anything else included)

So here w/ that XL engine we are looking at a MUCH more expensive Refit Kit.

But we don't include anything that would come from the original chassis like existing armor, cockpit, gyro,  etc etc etc?


Seems like some kits might be fairly cheap over all.
Stuff w/o an XL or bunches of new weapons might not be bad.

BattleMaster-1G to 3M  (CASE, ERPPC, 18 DHS)
Crusader-3D to 4D  (2 MPL, 2 STK-2, 1 Ammo)
PhoenixHawk-1 to 2  (Guardian ECM + 1/2 Ton Armor)
WolfHound-1 to 2  (ERLL + 10 DHS)

[RifleMech]

Dropping it from the core rules also broke the Warrior VTOL.

True but it didn't have rules for the remote dispenser anyway.

It broke a LOT of designs from Vehicles of TRO3025/26 to Mechs from TRO 3050/55.

It didn't help TRO2750 much either.

(snip)


So about those new rules.

It appears that the Kit cost from the factory is 10% of what is included.

So what would be included exactly?


For Example.

Lets take everyone's favorite Wolverine series.... 2 examples.

6R > 6M & 6M to 7M


So as I'm reading it, the Kit is literally JUST the parts that would be different?

So for a 6R shift to 6M.

1 Set of Blueprints/Instructions +
1 Large Laser
1 Medium Laser
2 Heat Sinks
1 Ton of Standard Armor    (You start with 9.5 & this adds just 1 ton?)

That's it?
So the cost is the total for the 5 items x 10%?

I imagine its something like that. Plus extra bolts, nuts, screws, washers, sprockets, wires, and hoses needed to connect everything. I guess the x10% in cost is for the plans and gathering all the materials into one package.

[Daryk]

The beauty of the MG ammo to armor conversion is that it only costs 5,500 C-Bills (half a ton of armor + 10%).

[guardiandashi]

I always figured the "refit kits" were everything you needed to make the change. 
1 detailed instructions, plans and templates
2 all parts needed such as components, adapters, etc.
3 data files needed, and or reprogrammed chips needed to update the firmware and software to support the new configuration.
etc.

essentially it puts "factory support" in a box that ships out to the users installing the kit.

[Daryk]

Right, and that's where the 10% overhead comes from.

[Kovax]

Wait, you're saying that it's 10% of the cost of the items (weapons and equipment), and INCLUDES all of the items, rather than the cost of the items + 10% to cover the converters and instructions?  That doesn't make a lot of sense, because you could buy the refit kits for 10% of the cost of the items, then sell the items for 50% of retail value, making a lucrative 400% profit on it.  Something is wrong here.

[Colt Ward]

Simple, its 110% of the cost of the items.

[Sartris]

yes

A refit kit can be sourced like any other component. The Availability Rating is equal to the highest Availability of the kit’s contents. The cost of a refit kit is equal to the cost of the components plus 10 percent. The kit will normally have a Quality Rating of D unless players elect to source a kit of lower or higher quality.

[guardiandashi]

Wait, you're saying that it's 10% of the cost of the items (weapons and equipment), and INCLUDES all of the items, rather than the cost of the items + 10% to cover the converters and instructions?  That doesn't make a lot of sense, because you could buy the refit kits for 10% of the cost of the items, then sell the items for 50% of retail value, making a lucrative 400% profit on it.  Something is wrong here.

lets say you have a MAD-3R marauder and buy a refit kit to upgrade it to a MAD-5S

the "kit" would contain:
1 300XL fusion reactor
1 gauss rifle
2 ER PPC
2 Medium Pulse Lasers
16 Double Heat Sinks
1 Case Module
detailed instructions, plans and templates
all additional parts needed such as components, adapters, etc.
data files needed, and or reprogrammed chips needed to update the firmware and software to support the new configuration.

this is what ends up costing 110% of the cost of the engine, weapons, and heat sinks

[Daryk]

Yeah, Kovax was clearly confused.  "Overhead" means cost above and beyond that of the components.

[Mostro Joe]

So the new rules for Repair/Customization/Refits were posted in another thread.

Where is this thread?

[Daryk]

Here's the link: https://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/StratOps-Refitting-Revised-Final.pdf

[Mostro Joe]

Thanks! But this cover the customization only. And the repairs?

[Xotl]

Repairs follow the standard StratOps ruleset: this new document was only intended to patch things a bit, rather than rewrite it all.

[CrossfirePilot]

No core charge (credits) for sending the old unit back for refurb?  :D

[Mostro Joe]

Repairs follow the standard StratOps ruleset: this new document was only intended to patch things a bit, rather than rewrite it all.

Ok thanks  :)