Author Topic: UrbanMech Theory  (Read 7919 times)

Daryk

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #30 on: 29 June 2020, 15:52:18 »
*shrug* Mechanics trumps fiction.
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carlisimo

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #31 on: 29 June 2020, 15:58:52 »
I like that theory a lot.  I'd like to think that there is an in-universe explanation, because all you'd have to do to make it a 3/5/3 is drop the pointless extra heat sink and find a ton elsewhere (the small laser and/or armor).  Or you might accept a 3/5/2 and give up a little less.

Daryk

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #32 on: 29 June 2020, 16:04:01 »
Or, you know... maybe put in TWO Large Lasers (or a BLAZER CANNON!  :D), a few HS, and kick it up to 3/5/3...

truetanker

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #33 on: 29 June 2020, 16:20:39 »
Neat theory...

One problem,  I've seen Urbies take out an OpFor of faster mechs before. Nothing special, just that an AC20 is scary enough to force either a Moral roll or PSR, which ever is needed. Same thing when non-Anti-Mech troopers meet one... there's a reason why most soldiers wear brown pants!  ;D

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glitterboy2098

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #34 on: 29 June 2020, 16:25:10 »
the advantages a mech has over a tank or infantry field gun is largely in terms of height and cross-terrain mobility.. being two levels tall an urbanmech can see over small buildings that would otherwise block line of sight for a tank or fieldgun, and in doing so it also can benefit from partial cover making it harder to kill while it fires. a tank or field gun with LOS is going to be exposed for the most part. (the exception being field gun platoons stationed inside a building.. but that take a lot of time to set up
a mech also benefits from being able to more easily pass through terrain.. a mech passing through rubble/rough ground, woods, or waterways is just slowed down a little. but for a vehicle those could all stop them entirely, depending on type of vehicle. and would hinder or stop infantry field guns as well.

a mech has an advantage over field guns too in that it can fire while moving.. something that field guns cannot due to the need to set up guns for firing, and break them down for transport. (a vehicle can fire on the move, but then we get back to the "can;t cross terrain as easily" issue)

if combat makes its way into the city, having mechs on hand to provide heavy mobile and tall firepower to the vehicles and infantry is useful. but few nations will want to devote important resources to a medium, heavy, or assault class urban specialist mech. so fitting as much of that firepower and armor onto a light mech makes sense in that regard.

Mendrugo

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #35 on: 29 June 2020, 16:26:43 »
That’s exactly the idea - the kind of ‘Mech most likely to try to overrun a Mobile Long Tom would be a fast striker unit - and the AC/10s on the Urbies are sufficient to take those apart as they try to breach the defensive perimeter around the LT-MOB-25.  I can see anywhere from a lance to a company of Urbies assigned to each Long Tom during the League’s height.
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Two Guns Blazing

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #36 on: 29 June 2020, 20:56:18 »
Jump jets are a pretty big asset in a city.  Stripping them doesn’t make it a better mech.

where in a city (not a small town or low level settlement, but a city with a large area consisting of tall buildings),

I feel it does make the Mech better by dropping the jump jets in the situation I specified...in a city consisting of tall buildings, and by that I was suggesting buildings the height of which the Urbanmechs jump of 2 wouldn't be able to jump onto or over...and although that doesn't make the jump jets 100% useless, it certainly lessens their effectiveness, and in this case, I'd prefer to be carrying the extra ton of ammo...I then go on to say that if you are operating in smaller towns, you could re-equip the jump jets if desired, because they would be more useful where the buildings are shorter...

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #37 on: 29 June 2020, 21:06:11 »
No city is made up entirely of skyscrapers*.  And even if they were, there might well be other obstacles-tall medians in divided roads, ditches or canals too wide to step over, etc. that jump jets would still be useful with.  They also allow you to jump behind an enemy that closes; something the UrbanMech couldn't otherwise do, with it's low speed.  Likewise, jets allow you to move two hexes *and* change direction to face however you like.  Pretty useful if an Axeman runs up behind you.  Even if most of the buildings are too tall to jump over in a single bound, jump jets still provide much-needed maneuverability for something as slow as an UrbanMech.




*Ok, maybe some sci-fi city that's one huge arcology could count as a single tall building, but it might be big enough for mechs to run around *inside* it.
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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #38 on: 29 June 2020, 21:20:48 »
My theory is the first generation of mechs were designed to match the art of someone else. When the original 3025 came along the designs came first, testing the limits of the design rules [cough]Charger[/cough]. The fluff came after and ever since then the writers have been trying to make a universe work around it.

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Greywind

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #39 on: 29 June 2020, 22:33:37 »
I would dispute that in my experience.

I once had a lance on lance battle in which my force of mostly intro tech ‘Mechs (I think three 55 tonners including a Dervish, and one Hitman) took on an equal bv force of more advanced tech ‘Mechs.

My Dervish didn’t get rendered combat ineffective until round 22.

And we still had the rest of our lance with assorted battle damage, IIRC.

I’ve had other fights last longer. And shorter length battles too, of course.

Ruger

So you have some outliers. How does that invalidate what I said about "average"? There's a reason the ammo bins tend to be stacked around 10-12 shots.

Ruger

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #40 on: 30 June 2020, 05:30:53 »
So you have some outliers. How does that invalidate what I said about "average"? There's a reason the ammo bins tend to be stacked around 10-12 shots.

That was just one example. Most of the battles I’ve been in have taken 15 to 20 rounds, unless someone gets in a lucky crit.

Edit: of course, the groups I’ve been in have not played with things like targeting computers, or many XL engines, or with Clan tech, so that could bias the results.

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« Last Edit: 30 June 2020, 05:33:21 by Ruger »
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Daryk

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #41 on: 30 June 2020, 15:19:20 »
That very much biases the results... for the exact reasons I prefer not to play with those particular innovations...

glitterboy2098

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #42 on: 30 June 2020, 18:58:22 »
That’s exactly the idea - the kind of ‘Mech most likely to try to overrun a Mobile Long Tom would be a fast striker unit - and the AC/10s on the Urbies are sufficient to take those apart as they try to breach the defensive perimeter around the LT-MOB-25.  I can see anywhere from a lance to a company of Urbies assigned to each Long Tom during the League’s height.
except that a mobile long-tom is generally not going to be inside a city where the Urbanmech actually fights best. it will, at best, be located on the outskirts of town, not even in the suburbs. much less the city center. more likely several miles outside of the city limits, where it can fire at anything that is approaching the city in support of mobile units like tanks and medium and heavy mechs that are attempting to block the approachs to the city.

Mendrugo

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #43 on: 01 July 2020, 00:11:26 »
There are battle history reports that show the Long Tom set up in a city square being used to hammer enemy positions at the edge of its range (such as the artillery duel between the rival-held cities of Garth and Tromoth).

Not much detail is given on what the main guardian system entailed, but it appears to have involved eschewing fixed artillery emplacements in favor of mobile artillery (either tracked or rail mounted) that could be positioned to hit enemies approaching from any direction. 

I agree that you aren’t going to want to set this up in the middle of the skyscraper district, but the urban hex maps show squares and parks with enough room for it to maneuver.  Then plonk some Urbies around it and, voila, main guardian.  I’d imagine the Long Tom was chosen because it has the range to hit enemies at the outskirts from the city interior, whereas snipers and thumpers would have to do a lot more moving to get in range, and have to set up much closer to the front, increasing their risk of being overrun.
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SteelRaven

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #44 on: 01 July 2020, 13:08:29 »
What bugs me about that idea is that the LT-MOB-25 Mobile Long Tom is huge, not only placing it in the city is going to make the city a target but getting the vehicle into positions in the city will be a pain. It was not a vehicle built to navigate city streets with ease. Great idea for a objective in a city fight though.


 
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Wolf72

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #45 on: 01 July 2020, 13:42:30 »
... getting the vehicle into positions in the city will be a pain. It was not a vehicle built to navigate city streets with ease. Great idea for a objective in a city fight though.

On our next episode of Modern Marvels, watch as the Star League Engineer Corp positions its newest urban defense platform in the middle of the park district.

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truetanker

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #46 on: 01 July 2020, 13:46:17 »
Why not?

I've had a few on Tabletop city fights and the area really a bit more mobile than you think. There's so many ways to fire from it's a joke. Now stowing and bugging out, I really recommend flank speed in a city and cut down the nearest side street. But for the most part, it's up and out, downtown.

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SteelRaven

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #47 on: 01 July 2020, 13:57:41 »
Why not?

I've had a few on Tabletop city fights and the area really a bit more mobile than you think. There's so many ways to fire from it's a joke. Now stowing and bugging out, I really recommend flank speed in a city and cut down the nearest side street. But for the most part, it's up and out, downtown.

TT

Yeah, I forget that while the Mobile Long Tom is depicted as a multi piece tractor trailer like system but doesn't play that way in outside of having limited speed. Visually, I always imagined it would be like moving the Space Shuttle Endeavor across LA.   
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Hellraiser

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #48 on: 01 July 2020, 15:00:11 »
Keeping it intro tech level, I think the real problem with the Urbie is the massive Ballistic Weapon & tiny Energy Weapon.

Flip that ratio around for something that actually fits the concept.

Make it a PPC/LL with cluster of MGs & now you have a mech designed for Urban Combat.

In the process making it 3/5/3 means you can out maneuver an Atlas in a pinch.

The old BT Mag had a couple of "Suburban-Mechs" in an article 3 decades ago and they were nice options.
PPC, LL, SRMs, all make for a better choice than the AC10 on such a small platform.
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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #49 on: 01 July 2020, 16:02:00 »
Perhaps we're misled by our (wrong) idea that the Long Tom gun is set up and used in a fashion similar to real world artillery.

Unless I missed something, the Long Tom can fire on the move, and doesn't need to be set up in a static position like real artillery does.
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massey

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #50 on: 01 July 2020, 16:06:40 »
Keeping it intro tech level, I think the real problem with the Urbie is the massive Ballistic Weapon & tiny Energy Weapon.

Flip that ratio around for something that actually fits the concept.

Make it a PPC/LL with cluster of MGs & now you have a mech designed for Urban Combat.

In the process making it 3/5/3 means you can out maneuver an Atlas in a pinch.

The old BT Mag had a couple of "Suburban-Mechs" in an article 3 decades ago and they were nice options.
PPC, LL, SRMs, all make for a better choice than the AC10 on such a small platform.

I disagree.  Range ain't that important in a city fight.  You're rarely going to need those extra 3 hexes from the PPC.  On the other hand, the minimum range penalty is going to be significant.  Outmaneuvering something is also unlikely to be important.  You're mobile enough to position yourself before the fight, but after that you really aren't going to move much.  Anything you can outmaneuver at 3/5/3 is going to murder you anyway.

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #51 on: 01 July 2020, 16:10:10 »
The Urbie is one of the most obvious 'Mechs begging for a Blazer refit...
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SteelRaven

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #52 on: 01 July 2020, 16:37:29 »
I disagree.  Range ain't that important in a city fight.  You're rarely going to need those extra 3 hexes from the PPC.  On the other hand, the minimum range penalty is going to be significant.  Outmaneuvering something is also unlikely to be important.  You're mobile enough to position yourself before the fight, but after that you really aren't going to move much.  Anything you can outmaneuver at 3/5/3 is going to murder you anyway.

It's not much range as weight, the Urbie pays a heavy price for the AC when you can do similar damage with energy weapons or a missile system still on the cheap without being reduced to a crawl. Really, the only reason this mech exist is because some people really liked ACs but at a certain point, it's just more efficient to get a AC field gun hooked up to something with a trailer hitch if you cant afford a Rommel or a Hunchback.   
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truetanker

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #53 on: 01 July 2020, 16:41:25 »
Wrong!

It's all about the CRUNCH! value.

TT
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SteelRaven

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #54 on: 01 July 2020, 16:48:37 »
Wrong!

It's all about the CRUNCH! value.

TT

*blinks, hands Truetanker a box of Captine Crunch and walks away*
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Syzyx

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #55 on: 01 July 2020, 17:08:04 »
Keeping it intro tech level, I think the real problem with the Urbie is the massive Ballistic Weapon & tiny Energy Weapon.

Flip that ratio around for something that actually fits the concept.

Make it a PPC/LL with cluster of MGs & now you have a mech designed for Urban Combat.

In the process making it 3/5/3 means you can out maneuver an Atlas in a pinch.

The old BT Mag had a couple of "Suburban-Mechs" in an article 3 decades ago and they were nice options.
PPC, LL, SRMs, all make for a better choice than the AC10 on such a small platform.

This would actually be quite a poor idea in a city you hope to keep, doubly so if the soldiers/MechWarriors have to interact with the populous. ACs, however mediocre in combat, don't start fires with anything like the regularity of big energy weapons.
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Daryk

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #56 on: 01 July 2020, 17:53:26 »
The Urbie is one of the most obvious 'Mechs begging for a Blazer refit...
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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #57 on: 01 July 2020, 21:47:00 »
This would actually be quite a poor idea in a city you hope to keep, doubly so if the soldiers/MechWarriors have to interact with the populous. ACs, however mediocre in combat, don't start fires with anything like the regularity of big energy weapons.
to add when you miss with missles it tend to hit something else and normally a bunch of civies structure that your fighting around.  while if you have a decent gunner you may avoid extra city damage with a one hit one kill weapon.  less spread

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #58 on: 01 July 2020, 22:01:04 »
If you fighting with collateral damage in the rule set, you already screwed up by having all your forces fight in the city. I doubt all your shots will be 100% on target or the OF will care, especially if they are bum rushing their way through the city to kill that Long Tom you parked in the middle of the city. Honestly, the only way you are going to minimize damage is with a array of precise short range weapons, like a bunch of small lasers and/or MG which will minimize the chance of a stray shot going wide and hitting a building down the street. Only other option is literal knife fighting with melee weapons.     
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truetanker

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Re: UrbanMech Theory
« Reply #59 on: 02 July 2020, 11:46:38 »
*blinks, hands Truetanker a box of Captine Crunch and walks away*

Only if I can have strawberry milk, otherwise... I'll take Quake cereal!

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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
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