Author Topic: Intra-planet redeployment?  (Read 7691 times)

Elmoth

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Intra-planet redeployment?
« on: 29 June 2020, 06:44:44 »
hello all,

I have the nagging suspicion that I asked this like a year or 2 ago, but my forum-fu is weak and I cannot find it. So here comes the rant and question.

Dropships are not that common. They are expensive and designed to be able to do interstellar travel. All well and good. Now, mechs are also uncommon (pre-clans where everything loses its elan, chivalry and worthiness :P), and sometimes need to cover a large area. When you move 4/6 or so and the attack is 1000 km away (a short distance by planetary standards) the raid is probably over by the time you get there. That would make mechs less than ideal to cover a continent worth of assets, let alone a continent or planet. A lot of planets do not have that good rail or road infrastructure either that allows high speed (in the hundreds or thousands of MPH speed). So....

Do we have any kind of intra-planet transportation (probably air transport) that deploys mechs and is NOT a dropship? I thought this would be common for small planets, but I might be wrong.

Or maybe dropships are very common and they just use a Union of the 3 or 4 that they have laying around to hop to other places in the planet like you take a cab to a party. meaning that I am wrong about the availability of dropships in the IS and that they are relatively common.

Thanks,
Xavi
« Last Edit: 29 June 2020, 07:11:48 by Elmoth »

Ruger

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #1 on: 29 June 2020, 07:33:24 »
Technical Readout Vehicle Annex has several examples of large support transports of several varieties: cargo aircraft, airships, trains, surface ships and submarines. Some of these are purpose-built aircraft carriers, which could indicate such a design specialized as a ‘Mech carrier.

DropShips would be another option, and perhaps more likely and rapid than the others mentioned above (especially as the latter would mostly move ‘Mechs as cargo, whereas a ‘Mech carrying DropShip would likely have special designed ‘Mech bays).

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AlphaMirage

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #2 on: 29 June 2020, 08:26:50 »
I think dropships are far more common than we think.  The only real limit on mobility in universe we ever see is in Jumpships. 

Any large developed planet probably has a Leopard or Aurora for use by the militia.  That said I think the decentralized nature of planets on Battletech works against such a thing.  Any target worth attacking is protected by corporate defense units and the Local noble's troops. 

If there are National forces on planet they have a dropship and access to a rail hub.  A good raid is probably over by the time they get in motion however and the Leopard is not a pursuit unit.

Elmoth

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #3 on: 29 June 2020, 08:33:07 »
Since early detection systems should be common if you are fielding mechs for defence, I would assume that the leopard or similar loaded with your rapid reaction forces is airborne and waiting to see where the enemy raiding party lands, so no need for a Leopard pursuit.

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #4 on: 29 June 2020, 13:04:55 »
You might also look back a few months for the topic on colony development.  We discussed historical colony placement and growth along with how a colony on a planet would grow . . . but if the thread is TLDR, then the summary was that for most colonized worlds all the important parts are going to be pretty centrally located- capital/spaceport/industry for example with resource development spread on the rest of the world.  So control 10% of the planet- like for example, Australia's coasts with the cities (and not even all the coast)- and you have de facto control of the rest of the world . . . so why station forces that far away?
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Elmoth

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #5 on: 29 June 2020, 13:59:31 »
That is something perfectly understandable. And I tend to agree with that statement. However, Australia is still quite big of you hsv who movie around at 5/8 to intercept someone outside your municipality.

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #6 on: 29 June 2020, 14:50:17 »
Oh yeah, in the analogy an invader does not even hold the Outback and it might be considered hostile territory even if the planet is 'under' the control of a new power.  It was more that the things worth defending are concentrated- heck the lower down the value chart the more likely everything anyone cares about is co-located in one specific place.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #7 on: 29 June 2020, 16:02:25 »
Even sub-orbital flight times beat pretty much everything else... DropShips are the sine qua non of truly planetary defense.  Nothing else is even remotely affordable.  Heck, it even explains the insane cost multiplier for them...

dgorsman

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #8 on: 29 June 2020, 16:15:10 »
You generally have a good idea of where the raiders are heading i.e. paying attention to status reports on industry, reports on pirate activity, intelligence alerts, and so on.  A clever defender might make an educated guess where they will land and try to ambush them on the way back or threaten the DropShip to keep them occupied.

And in many cases military raids (and pirates in some cases) in the 3025 era it doesn't matter if they ground out in the middle of nowhere.  You're buttoned up, defending what needs to be kept safe, so they can run around all they feel like as that's just wasting time, food, and fuel.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #9 on: 29 June 2020, 16:49:16 »
Even sub-orbital flight times beat pretty much everything else... DropShips are the sine qua non of truly planetary defense.  Nothing else is even remotely affordable.  Heck, it even explains the insane cost multiplier for them...

Except the problem that its a expensive basket you are placing the defending eggs in.  Its why I like small craft loaded QRFs- I can beef up the mech defenders at any location with less lost to a intercept of a small craft loaded with Scorpions and field guns.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #10 on: 29 June 2020, 17:25:18 »
Small craft are just as fast as DropShips, but can't carry the weight...

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #11 on: 29 June 2020, 19:14:37 »
Depending on the design they could re-deploy with a Scorpion or two, some trailers, towed artillery, or infantry field gun platoons.  Its enough to shuffle assets between two points to beef up the mech defenders already present.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #12 on: 29 June 2020, 19:19:25 »
Most things that fit in a 'mech cubicle will be able to hand that...

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #13 on: 29 June 2020, 21:59:10 »
I never said they could stand off- what I said was they would be able to supplement the on hand defenders.  Refinery X has a lance of mechs, company of medium armor and two infantry platoons as the ready garrison facing a raid by a Union . . . having FB-335 (support aircraft) or Small Craft bring in another lance of Scorpions, two towed Thumper artillery, and two platoons of AC/5 field guns from some more distant garrison point that does not have mechs assigned or is the QRF based at the capital would be enough for the defenders to put out a better defense without risking a DS to enemy air.

Enemy air hits a Union CC (because that is what was at the spaceport unloading cargo) and causes it to crash you are going to lose that Union along with 1800 tons of whatever gear you put on it.  You lose the dropship's load and you also weakened wherever you stripped that company of mechs, company of armor, and company of infantry you packed in as cargo.
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Elmoth

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #14 on: 30 June 2020, 01:02:37 »
If I am the defender I would assume that I would have a few conventionals supporting my union to prevent that, right. Conventional fighters are as good in atmo as ASF, and (even if they are more fragile) there tend to be quite a few more than ASF out there.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #15 on: 30 June 2020, 03:35:25 »
If I am the defender, I'm not going to be interested in moving less then a company, either of heavy armor or 'Mechs.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #16 on: 30 June 2020, 11:56:08 »
Do we have any kind of intra-planet transportation (probably air transport) that deploys mechs and is NOT a dropship? I thought this would be common for small planets, but I might be wrong.

This has been around TRO3026:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Planetlifter
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Daryk

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #17 on: 30 June 2020, 15:31:07 »
Move "as cargo" is very different from "move operationally"...

Elmoth

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #18 on: 30 June 2020, 15:34:03 »
Alàs, t'he planetlifter got nerfed in later publications. It cannot transport up to heavy mechs anymore.

Jellico

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #19 on: 01 July 2020, 04:27:15 »
The 1800 ton DropShips are pretty much made for intra-planetary work. Small tactical units. No cargo capacity. No range.

Unions are more for planetary assault. Much larger unit carried.

Also try and remember the BT DropShips were created in a time of plentiful DropShips. That didn't last.

Wolf72

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #20 on: 01 July 2020, 07:37:29 »
Move "as cargo" is very different from "move operationally"...

with any luck you are not moving into a active hot zone and can get a few hours (or less) to unload and deploy.  How long does it take? 1min per ton? How far out can you detect an enemy inbound/dropships?  Everything depends on flight times.

SC, even slow ones, can hit the upper atmosphere/space to get there faster (I think, that's how it works-ish)

Support fixed wing craft will probably take a lot longer, but if you know you have 4 days before a dropship lands, well then get to it! (most I was able to get in a 200t prop plane was 90+ tons, but that was cargo and Tech F, at lower tech rates 50-70-ish ranges ... but only moving 3/5 to 4/6)
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Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #21 on: 01 July 2020, 09:22:10 »
Unions are more for planetary assault. Much larger unit carried.

Also try and remember the BT DropShips were created in a time of plentiful DropShips. That didn't last.

Only the first part if you remember the second line- because something else is hauling what that company is going to need.

Wolf, the problem is you can concentrate to a degree but the raiders could hit somewhere you are not . . . basically defenders need to make them land a distance from the objective, keep them on the ground, and then they can shift forces to hit them.  If raiders can retreat to their DS and lift for a sub-orbital hop to a different target (like one you just stripped to assist other defenders) then you have problems.    So you can mobilize- get everything repaired/loaded/ready, call out the weekend warriors, disburse to tactical positions rather than stay in garrison, and evac areas near targets- but if you shift defending forces around too much then you offer a opening if they have a single observer present to relay the changes in garrison assignments.  The issue is the ever present attacker's initiative advantage in that they choose when & where to attack.

Which makes civil/economic planning of BT colonies interesting . . . Age of War, SW1 & maybe SW2 as infrastructure and war industry was built it was dispersed to prevent nukes and ortillery from getting too much at once but the late SW2 and SW3 slide the same sort of valuable targets would get centralized to allow defensive forces to remain concentrated.
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Wolf72

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #22 on: 01 July 2020, 09:32:31 »
well isn't that just crap-on-a-stick!

Invest more in planetary/national guard so all of your target centers can field a company or two of various infantry (PBI all the way to field guns & artillery).  Not sure if that'll be less than your own dropships and SC.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #23 on: 01 July 2020, 12:44:43 »
Move "as cargo" is very different from "move operationally"...

You don't airdrop a Abrams Tank or a Apache Helicopter via C-17 but that's how you get it from one place to another other than under it's own power.

If you are looking for rapid deployment your options are limited to Dropships as you are asking for something akin to a flying aircraft carrier (which a dropship kinda sorta is) otherwise you will need to make concessions for smaller more conventional means such as aircraft and rail.

I'm not bashing the idea, it actually highlights the need for vehicles in TRO:VA and why so much industry is centered around drop-ports (same reason why so many real world cities are built around ports, convenience and access) but it also highlights why dropships are such a necessity in the BTU.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #24 on: 01 July 2020, 13:33:13 »
You don't airdrop a Abrams Tank or a Apache Helicopter via C-17 but that's how you get it from one place to another other than under it's own power.

But you could a Sheridan tank, a HIMARs launcher, Avenger systems, and crew served weapon equipped Humvees . . . not sure about Strykers.  But forget airdropping- it gets practiced but its not really ideal.  You CAN load those systems on a plane ready to roll off and go into action with very little delay.  So loading a pair of Scorpions on a FB-335 at some mining post up in the mountains and flying down to the coastal city that has the spaceport and transportation hub where all the goods are gathered to go offworld (or imports in warehouses) where they unload.  Pop some straps, drive it off the plane, and then form up to drive to the sound of the guns.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #25 on: 01 July 2020, 15:06:52 »
Cargo load/offload times is still a lot less than what would be needed to actually move a mech across the continent under its own or rail power.

Dropships even cargo ones, turn travel times of days into hours.

And even mid tier units like a "March Militia" are going to have some dropships around.
Maybe not a trio of Overlords but you can bet they have a spare Leo or Union for quick deployments in response to raiders.

Any planet able to pay for a regiment of heavy tanks like the common Manticore can also probably afford a single Gazelle to move a company around in a hurry.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #26 on: 01 July 2020, 16:55:25 »
After one orbit, the defenders literally have no idea where the attackers are going to land.

That said, the Sniper Rifles TPTB just gave us in Shrapnel #1 finally transform every single infantry platoon into a real threat.  2-point groups of damage at a range up to (potentially) 7/14/21 should scare anyone who's ever taken a head hit or TAC...

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #27 on: 01 July 2020, 17:03:42 »
After one orbit, the defenders literally have no idea where the attackers are going to land.

That said, the Sniper Rifles TPTB just gave us in Shrapnel #1 finally transform every single infantry platoon into a real threat.  2-point groups of damage at a range up to (potentially) 7/14/21 should scare anyone who's ever taken a head hit or TAC...

Problem with that is that line infantry companies do not usually get equipped with snipers, like FOs, ATCs, engineers, and other specialists they would be assigned from higher.  Let's not also forget that Count Over von Bearing is not going to be thrilled with his militia being trained as snipers or sappers.
Colt Ward
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #28 on: 01 July 2020, 17:42:11 »
I can only appeal to the real world here, where every Fire Team has a "Designated Marksman"...

dgorsman

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #29 on: 01 July 2020, 18:34:35 »
... Count Over von Bearing ...

 :lol:
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #30 on: 01 July 2020, 20:17:13 »
I can only appeal to the real world here, where every Fire Team has a "Designated Marksman"...

Sure, you may have that one guy in the section who scores the highest on the range but they will still get the issue rifle along with all the other grunts in the platoon & company.  Sniper rifles are not basic issue nor are they regular TO&E.  M-16 or -4s, M203s, M249s, or M240 (or 60s to go back) . . . sniper rifles are not issued to the line troops.
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Ruger

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #31 on: 01 July 2020, 20:35:26 »
Sure, you may have that one guy in the section who scores the highest on the range but they will still get the issue rifle along with all the other grunts in the platoon & company.  Sniper rifles are not basic issue nor are they regular TO&E.  M-16 or -4s, M203s, M249s, or M240 (or 60s to go back) . . . sniper rifles are not issued to the line troops.

Doesn’t have to be a true sniper rifle, nor would it be a true sniper. Some countries do/did issue a designated marksman’s rifle to a soldier in a squad/fire team to provide long range fire options vs the majority of the units more intermediate range firepower. In the US, this rifle would often be a scoped variant of the M14, and that soldier would often also carry a M4 carbine.

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Wolf72

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #32 on: 01 July 2020, 20:38:52 »
Do infantry get gunnery skills? If so, I would imagine a full platoon+ of sniper rifles may not get better than the average for them.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #33 on: 02 July 2020, 00:41:59 »
Infantry have 2 skills, Gunnery & Anti-Mech (Piloting), similar to every other unit.

The difference is they can choose to not be Anti-Mech trained which means it defaults to 7 or 8, I forget.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #34 on: 02 July 2020, 02:25:26 »
Doesn’t have to be a true sniper rifle, nor would it be a true sniper. Some countries do/did issue a designated marksman’s rifle to a soldier in a squad/fire team to provide long range fire options vs the majority of the units more intermediate range firepower. In the US, this rifle would often be a scoped variant of the M14, and that soldier would often also carry a M4 carbine.

Ruger

Sure, but he is talking about militia infantry getting someone trained, assigned and equipped with a sniper rifle.  The DBG infantry components may- but then they are more likely to have a company of scout-snipers for each regiment rather than one assigned to each platoon.  But they are a elite formation and more likely to be in a situation where they need a sniper along with being equipped.
Colt Ward
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #35 on: 02 July 2020, 02:41:38 »
Hellraiser: yep, it's 8.

Colt: read the fluff in Shrapnel, especially about the Taurian rifle...  ^-^

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #36 on: 02 July 2020, 22:18:39 »
Dropships would be best. I don't know if every planet would be able to have dropships for their defenders. But they might be able to contract any dropships in port if needed.

Looking at the weights for support units, they could be equipped with bays, including Mech Bays. I'm not sure how fast they can go but they wouldn't have to stop to rest either. That would speed their travel as well as let them be rested when they arrive.

They also don't have to pick one specific location and risk being wrong. They could stop at a central point and then move to the location the raiders head for.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #37 on: 02 July 2020, 23:07:54 »
Alàs, t'he planetlifter got nerfed in later publications. It cannot transport up to heavy mechs anymore.

No doubt, but she still has the 20-ton cargo bay for running bug mechs across/between continents for militia units.

Also to be clear, with no mech bay, the Planetlifter cannot perform mech drops or otherwise deploy a Locust/Stinger/Wasp directly into a combat zone.  Cargo has to be offloaded, which takes time per rules in SO.
« Last Edit: 02 July 2020, 23:19:18 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #38 on: 03 July 2020, 00:50:02 »
And in later eras things like the Gun can also be run on Planetlifters, which is actually a decent threat to anything in its size class.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #39 on: 03 July 2020, 17:33:11 »
And in later eras things like the Gun can also be run on Planetlifters, which is actually a decent threat to anything in its size class.

Alàs, t'he planetlifter got nerfed in later publications. It cannot transport up to heavy mechs anymore.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #40 on: 03 July 2020, 17:48:02 »
The gun in an "Omni-Hornet" for lack of a better term, so at 20 tons, it IS able to be on a planet lifter which was Kamas' point.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #41 on: 04 July 2020, 19:29:35 »
The gun in an "Omni-Hornet" for lack of a better term, so at 20 tons, it IS able to be on a planet lifter which was Kamas' point.
I don't have access to my books right now, but loading a 20 ton 'Mech onto a transport would take 20 or more minutes, and the same to unload, plus travel time. Ignoring the fact that the minimum raid force size is 4 'Mechs, so moving a single one around is stupid, there's the fact that once a raid moves into the 'smash and grab' phase you'll only have an hour at the outside to intercept the raiders, unless their target is your 'Mechs, in which case sending only 1 is precisely what they want.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #42 on: 04 July 2020, 20:08:03 »
To be fair, something like a planetlifter isn't going to be taking things into combat.  Just bringing them into theater, like tanks on an airlift.  My thought was bring it to the area - specifically where there's a runway to handle the Planetlifter - and then from there move it into combat under its own power.  It's not like you need to hot-drop the thing.

If you do, then you're back to requiring a DropShip.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #43 on: 05 July 2020, 02:23:06 »
something like a planetlifter by itself isn't much good for redeploying assets (and would typically be used by the defenders not the attackers) on the other hand if you have 4 or more of them and can take a lance of mechs into the general area of something it looks like the enemy is going to attack that you don't have enough defenses onsite for what it appears that they are bringing then it can make a difference, and or could be extremely useful.

also with the old writeup of the planetlifter (pre nerf) the cargo deck of the planetlifter could be unloaded a lot faster than the weight of the cargo would imply IE you have a 20 ton mech strapped to the cargo deck in hot standby (takes 1-2 min to bring it ready to operate, and you land and come to a stop, drop the cargo floor, and cargo.  Then taxi away and get clear.  some people quickly disconnect all the cargo straps, the mech then stands up and walks off ready for combat in ~2-3 min not 20+

that was supposed to be one of the big advantages of the planetlifter.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #44 on: 06 July 2020, 19:30:25 »
Post Nerf I feel like the best use of the PL now is to deploy 5-6 platoons of Jump Infantry/Paratroopers.

Sure its not a mech, but 2 companies of infantry able to dig into woods/buildings with support weapons can make for a very annoying day if you have to go through them.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #45 on: 06 July 2020, 23:07:42 »
Post Nerf I feel like the best use of the PL now is to deploy 5-6 platoons of Jump Infantry/Paratroopers.

Sure its not a mech, but 2 companies of infantry able to dig into woods/buildings with support weapons can make for a very annoying day if you have to go through them.

Which is why I talked about using the better FB-335 and moving a pair of light tanks, towed guns and infantry.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #46 on: 07 July 2020, 06:39:04 »
FB-335: oi! that's big plane.  I wonder if they would consider a propeller and solar/fusion design to increase range.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #47 on: 07 July 2020, 09:07:48 »
How about a Tonbo? Slow, but can give certain Mechs a speed boost.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #48 on: 07 July 2020, 09:17:55 »
Very informative posts. Thanks!
For what you are all saying, it seems that

1. A dropship seems to be the only really viable option of you have to move more than 150 km.

2. That dropships might be more common than I thought. So a militia might have a Leopard or Union to move stuff around. These dropships can be used for other uses in the meantime, like hauling ore from the asteroid belt when not in use by the militia. I can see a very dirty union with only 6 or 8 cubicles operational being used for this usage.

I thought there would be cheaper transports that only work in a planet, but chan transport more mechs than there really are. you do not really need t be able to attach to a jumpship, or be able to fly for months at a time to be useful as a planetary transport, but that kind of transportation does not seem to exist in the BT universe. It is like everything is hauled in 8-10 wheel trucks since delivery bans do not exist, but hey :)

In any case production and logistics have never been a focus of the Bt universe, so it is no biggie. I will just review my mental availability of dropships and crank it up like 50-100%.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #49 on: 07 July 2020, 09:38:37 »
I'd say it isn't that delivery vans don't exist... it's just that the things you really want to move are bigger than most delivery vans.  For example, most delivery vans are too small to move a grand piano without disassembly.  You simply need a bigger truck.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #50 on: 07 July 2020, 10:19:05 »
Also if you're hunting a great white shark you might need a bigger boat.

back on topic, with a solar or fusion engine and propellers your plane has a limitless range (time is another matter).
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #51 on: 07 July 2020, 10:38:26 »
Very informative posts. Thanks!
2. That dropships might be more common than I thought. So a militia might have a Leopard or Union to move stuff around. These dropships can be used for other uses in the meantime, like hauling ore from the asteroid belt when not in use by the militia. I can see a very dirty union with only 6 or 8 cubicles operational being used for this usage.

More like the militia can use emergency powers to requisition that civilian transport offloading the latest shipment of Nike sneakers at the spaceport to move everything as cargo.  Civilian freighter dropships are more likely to be available than military models to militias.  FREX, say my state gets invaded . . . the local reserves & Guard here do not have APCs, they have trucks & humvees (though some are uparmored . . ).

Planetary transport comes down to a trade off of- speed/volume/range/development.  A developed planet is going to have larger/more transport networks . . . while DS operating is pretty cheap, its still not going to be as cheap as a Panamax freighter traveling between continents but its going to be a few weeks to get from place to place.  However, a small craft can do a suborbital hop to carry that 5 kilo vitally important widget that gets your whole production line working again in the space of a couple hours.

When it comes to shuffling military forces in the face of a raid (or invasion) the questions are simpler-

Will the forces moved be militarily significant at their destination?

Is their relocation important enough to counter the risk of losing the equipment/personnel and transport to enemy action?


Since you are talking about air mobile/airborn operations IMO you should consider IRL doctrine on that . . . which is pretty simply, the airborne transport planes (which would be analogs of DS & conventionals like the FB-335) do not travel anywhere with a relatively intact AA umbrella.  Air mobile (more equivalent to Small Craft IMO) are a bit different but its also b/c you lose a squad or two on most craft instead of a company or two when a transport plane gets knocked down.  Because as the raider/attacker I am going to keep my aerospace assets as hidden as possible so the defender does not know exactly what resources I have on hand- it gives me a chance to take things out piecemeal if I do not need ASF to land.  Flip-side is as the defender I have to worry about a squadron of ASF pouncing on a dropship or small craft doing a sub-orbital hop- or even a single ASF shooting down something like a PlanetLifter or FB-335, even with escorting CFs loaded with AA A4 or Light AA A4 (which will not be available everywhere).
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #52 on: 07 July 2020, 11:17:13 »
Something like a "March Militia" might have access to several Military Dropships.

Standard Planetary Militia, at best might be able to get a hold of the smallest/most common designs.  Leo, Fury, Gazelle.
Just enough for a small quick redeployment.
More likely as Colt said, they would move more stuff w/ a cargo hauler.


So maybe XYZ world at any given time has this attached/available.

1.  Gazelle class Dropship.
2.  2x Planet Lifters
3.  Buccaneer cargo Dropship.


Its not a lot, but, a company of heavy tanks & 2 companies of infantry w/ 3 APCs can be deployed very quickly to blunt/reinforce an area with the better part of a 2 battalions more coming as "cargo" later.

1 Tank Battalion & 2 Infantry Battalions won't stand up to a mech regiment, but it might to a good job of holding off a mixed company of Pirate raiders.  (8 mechs, 8 tanks, 4 infantry platoons)


It doesn't take much to be a mobile force either if its your finest units.

Sure, the target might only have a company of Scorpion Light Tanks & Leg Infantry battalion on hand normally as its standing defenses.
Part of a mixed Tank/Infantry brigade that is the planetary militia.

But the pinnacle of the militia is a company of Manticore/Patton tanks & being able to drop 12 of those w/ some more infantry in the path of the raiders changes the equation considerably.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #53 on: 07 July 2020, 11:29:46 »
I think you guys might be missing some pretty obvious things here...

1. every world is going to be slightly different, but a few things about habitation are that people will tend to want to build ways to move lots of goods over long distances fairly quickly.  This 'lots of goods' includes everything from commercial goods to military forces.

2. if dropships are rare, or hard to get ahold of or tasked with something higher priority, most military planners will have SOME other option.

3.  'other options' can include everything from 18 wheelers to Trains, to barges, to boats, to jet aircraft, depending on where and how far you're going to need to move those things.

4. Anything worth stealing/capturing or destroying is going to have infrastructure to move troops into, onto, or next to it if they aren't already inside.

This means there are a HUGE number of options available besides 'load onto a dropship and pray'.

most of those have already been mentioned, as a matter of fact, but keep in mind what killed the GDL.  Grayson loaded up the unit on a monorail and it got nuked.

this suggests that rail transport probably is a thing.  (More to the point, we have rules for building some).

The important thing for your campaign players isn't necessarily how the Opfor got there, but making sure you have Opfor for them to defeat.

for story-writing purposes, or for the really cool in-depth campaign designers who want to give their players a full-on simulation experience, it's a matter of cracking open the books and designing/generating/discussing all that infrastructure (and maybe using it to set time tables or restrict how many thillion infantry can actually respond to the raiders-aka how long to mobilize a serious counter-attack/defense?)

Really, all the suggestions here are good.  Seriously good, some of the questions and objections are also good.  But really, past the breaking eggs and mixing stage, what you bake into your scenario, setting, plot, or storyline really just need to be internally consistent with the game you're running or the story you're telling.  (and, of course, have some resemblance to the ruleset if you're including scenario work for actual gameplay).
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #54 on: 07 July 2020, 11:56:05 »
The main thing to remember here is that conventional infantry is literally the easiest thing to deploy from "standard" cargo bays without any set up or break down time.  TIME is the principal asset in responding to a raid, whether it's by surprise (from a "legitimate" civilian hauler that lied, or an obviously military raider that used a pirate point).  Vehicles (and BA) need dedicated bays (the tonnage of which can be debated elsewhere) that infantry just doesn't NEED.  Infantry continues to be relevant in this universe (despite its cost) for exactly this reason.  Time is literally priceless.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #55 on: 07 July 2020, 12:18:27 »
The main thing to remember here is that conventional infantry is literally the easiest thing to deploy from "standard" cargo bays without any set up or break down time.  TIME is the principal asset in responding to a raid, whether it's by surprise (from a "legitimate" civilian hauler that lied, or an obviously military raider that used a pirate point).  Vehicles (and BA) need dedicated bays (the tonnage of which can be debated elsewhere) that infantry just doesn't NEED.  Infantry continues to be relevant in this universe (despite its cost) for exactly this reason.  Time is literally priceless.

Actually, BA can load into cargo and deploy like infantry.  Both do not even need 'doors' in the design of the DS/SC/CF like mechs and other equipment.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #56 on: 07 July 2020, 12:35:26 »
So.... what do BA Bays get you beyond regular Infantry Bays?  Are they truly interchangeable?  I'm inclined to think not, but could be easily persuaded by a page reference...

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #57 on: 07 July 2020, 13:54:02 »
So.... what do BA Bays get you beyond regular Infantry Bays?  Are they truly interchangeable?  I'm inclined to think not, but could be easily persuaded by a page reference...

I'd imagine that BA Bays allow you to maintain the suits as opposed to just move them from point A to point B.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #58 on: 07 July 2020, 14:00:28 »
I'd imagine that BA Bays allow you to maintain the suits as opposed to just move them from point A to point B.

This . . . so AeroSpace bays like Infantry/vehicle/mech bays, have quarters for the personnel along with storage/repair of suits.  Going for a suborbital hop its like the APCs . . . so 4t of cargo/infantry space means you can haul a platoon or a squad of BA, you pick.
Colt Ward
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #59 on: 07 July 2020, 14:16:06 »
So Infantry Compartments can hold either conventional Infantry or BA?  I like that idea...

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #60 on: 07 July 2020, 14:30:54 »
I was thinking about the case of a.medium planet, that has some industry and s pair other potential targets. All in all located in a continent the size of North America or so. Not very spread planet-wide, but significant enough to make trucking around inconvenient when a raid is less than 6 hours from atmospheric entry to atmospheric leave.

The militia will have forces in all significant locatuo s already deployed for sure. What they will need is something that allows their reinforcements to move to the plac ethst is being hit fast. The said company of manticores, or a lance of mechs and maybe some LRM carriers. That make the armour company plus lance already on site get a boost to their combat capabilities.

Air still seems to be the best option here. Monorails do not feature in the fiction enough to be considered core transport systems for FAST redeployment across continents (2-3 hour margins).

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #61 on: 07 July 2020, 14:42:45 »
So Infantry Compartments can hold either conventional Infantry or BA?  I like that idea...

I hate the phrasing (bay, quarters, space, etc) on this . . . to be clear, space allotted for short term (hours) trip for infantry can move either infantry or BA provided its enough room- it does not matter if its a APC or a Small Craft doing a suborbital hop (or maybe longer, Grayson Carlisle took his platoon up to a recharge station w/o a 'bay' for a couple of days).  The question/answer came with using a AS Card that had a 'cargo' modifier rather than whatever for infantry transport, even if it was fluffed as moving infantry/BA.
 

FREX, we are told a Condottiere has been modified to allow it to deploy a single BA for EVA opportunites . . . not sure how 'extensive' that has to be for stats since it has a 1t cargo bay, though I guess it could be replaced to allow 1/4 of a BA Squad bay afaik we do not have a RS for that unique.

Personally, I would allow a 4t Infantry Bay on a Dropship (Jump?) to carry a BA squad as a option, but that has to do with some of the fluff of how BA are transported since we are abstracting a lot of stuff . . . and I have my fingers in my ears 'lalalala' not thinking about mass vs volume.

Air still seems to be the best option here. Monorails do not feature in the fiction enough to be considered core transport systems for FAST redeployment across continents (2-3 hour margins).

They can be . . . they feature in at least 3-5 incidents I remember- GDL getting hit on Hesperus en route under Lori Carlisle's command after Grayson died (problem was she should have stopped in or after exiting the tunnel, her destination was not scouted), Nichol Halas-Huges-Marik was nearly attacked by a train full of defenders on a independent planet, hesitating to fire b/c it was a 'civilian' transport & infrastructure even after having her invading forces hit a few weeks before the same way.  During Operation Guerrero Davion left overs hijacked a Capellan money transfer that was on rails- lots of l-bills and d-bills left with the retreating FedSuns force.  And I think we get a few other stories of forces behind shifted behind the FEBA during a invasion.
Colt Ward
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Wolf72

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #62 on: 07 July 2020, 14:46:10 »
So Infantry Compartments can hold either conventional Infantry or BA?  I like that idea...

So in our own designs, or even official ones, they are simply some sort of infantry -- but usually for x, y, or z?  I'm cool with that too.  My big honkin' chopper has a 36t infantry pay load, meant for Field guns/artillery ... I would guess any infantry can take that transport, possibly a bit more on a why-tf did they put all these tie down clamps everywhere!

I would think a Bay for BA is almost the same as regular Infantry except that the suits are there and prepped to go.

Colt: oh my, the above chopper is 60t -- I would imagine it would look HUGE compared to a 60t MBT with only 4 crew.
« Last Edit: 07 July 2020, 14:47:41 by Wolf72 »
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #63 on: 07 July 2020, 15:06:05 »
Is there a rule clarification anywhere that confirms this?  ???

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #64 on: 07 July 2020, 17:17:27 »
It was discussed, as said, on a post involving a vehicle that had a cargo special on the Alpha Strike card - some old design like the Saladin (cargo) or something before they started defining down infantry bays.

Also FREX, the Bailey Armored Car- 3t cargo space that by the fluff is sometimes used by poorer militaries as a APC.
Colt Ward
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #65 on: 07 July 2020, 17:18:34 »
So it's good for Alpha Strike at least, it seems...

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #66 on: 07 July 2020, 17:29:32 »
I think per the "fluff" we know that the 3 tons in a Maxim is 28 seats in a circle.

But that is TRO fluff.

We know the Heavy APC series is specifically listed as being able to be 2 normal platoons or 1 motorized platoon.

The Cavalry-Infantry is just listed as being an "Infantry Bay" at 4 tons.
Whether or not that is actually Jump Troops v/s Battle Armor could be debated.

I'd assume that "Infantry Bays" have some generic wall tie downs that allow for a row of flip seats to be put in for grunts or larger areas for jump/motor or a small "gantry/cage" for BA units.

I can't imagine its standing room only set up like a city bus for long range transport.

My guess is units like the Heavy series as well as later Clan War APCs have some sort of modular seating set up.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #67 on: 07 July 2020, 18:35:19 »
I think you guys might be missing some pretty obvious things here...
  As usual, your points are all spot on. Planetary infrastructure is rarely random, as laying down a city is an expensive operation, no matter who is supplying the funds.

  Considerations:

  1) Terrain is key.
  Airfields are usually situated in open country, primarily to take advantage of prevailing winds but if there are residences or buildings nearby, there are safety and noise abatement concerns, as well. Having aircraft on approach descending over the suburbs will garner you a lot of complaints, even though your runway was built decades before those suburbs existed (Yes, I was born in one of those towns...and you'd figure the people buying those houses would have noticed all the jets flying overhead...)

  2) Note the supply chain.
  The raw materials from the (A) mine are sent to the (B) processing plant then to the (C) manufacturer (stage 1)...etc... These could be all on the same world (cheapest), a series of worlds in the same system, or spread out among multiple systems. The same goes for food, water and other goods. A sustainable colony doesn't need shipments of supplies needed for its inhabitants to live...but...consumers place higher value on products not normally available locally, such as tobacco, coffee, tea or chocolate (things that I needed a ration card to buy on post in Germany as a soldier).

 3) Tie it together.
  Okay, you establish a raw material mine and set up operations. Where do the workers live? A tent city? A trailer park away from the noise and smell? Corporate apartments? Is there a commute? What is the distance from (A) mine to (B) processing plant, if they are on the world? The processing plant might be closer to the main power supply and better living quarters, and likely closer to the air/space port. People like to live close to work, so expect urban sprawl in the form of apartments until people earn enough to move to spacier suburbs.

  Despite being centuries in the future, the BTU is surprisingly low-tech, which is fine, because most players can identify with low-tech. That being said, there is still the principle of diminishing returns, you could plow a field with an ox-drawn plow and it would be cheap, but the time and effort would only allow so many fields to be plowed in a planting season, which is why one Medieval farmer might feed up to a hundred people while a modern farmer could feed many thousands.

  So, what do raiders go after? Unless certain raw materials are extremely rare to find (an impossibility in any system), the most cost-effective way to steal something is to let somebody do all the work and then take the finished product. Off the production-line equipment, vehicles, battlemechs, harvested food, all would top the list. When you steal a battlemech, you aren't just making off with an expensive product, you are stealing the value of its materials, components and the labor invested in creating it. Whether you are stealing something on behalf of a House or for blackmarket sale, you are investing your time, assets and even risking your life and freedom for some gain, so a raider rarely expends more than they will profit -Governments do that kind of rubbish, under the canopy of war, where the side that wins does so by costing the enemy more than the war costs them.

  Location, location, location...
  A system in the center of a House's dominion is going to have less chances of being raided than a border system facing a hostile faction. Then of course, that world devoted to mass producing plastic kitchenware isn't high on the list of strategic targets, unless that world by its location, is itself a strategic asset, where raiders would just visit to break things. A defender has to weigh the value of an asset, such as factories and warehouses full of valuable stuff, against the inevitable expense of guarding those assets. A strong enough defense might deter many potential raids, to the point that a lack of raids might raise questions about why there are so many defenders in the first place, especially among those footing the bill. The presence of nearby government assets effectively lowers those costs.

   

  Motivation
  Outside of war, the strongest motivation for raiding is profit, which also means a raider must also have a point where they will will just cut and run, rather than incur losses from which recovery is difficult. As with many mercenary units, some may take damage that costs too much to repair so they wind up accepting lower-paying, minimal risk garrison contracts until they get back on their feet. High-risk can mean scoring big but could also mean disaster for some.

  From one Creator of the Universe to Others...
  Over the decades I have run dozens of campaigns, many extremely entertaining and while I prefer to construct a "thinking man's" scenario, very few of my players campaign in order to think, preferring to shoot their way to victory. With that in mind, a GM has to set various levels of success for scenarios: A) Basic victory: Turn back raiders; B) Morale victory: Send raiders away with bloody noses; C) Positive victory: B with salvage; D) Total victory: C with prisoners; E) Resounding victory: D with valuable data to find raider's main base...etc. A thru C are pretty easy with just muscle; D and E take a little more thought and noncombat abilities, as prisoners and data are usually handed over to authorities at higher levels.
Most of my players always went for the lower-hanging fruit and only aimed their sights higher under the leadership of NPC commanders, sadly. I've run campaigns where none of the players wanted any kind of authority at all and intentionally designed their characters to be totally useless as administrators.
Sometimes, a GM has to dumb-down a campaign to suit the players who only care about combat and nothing else, which made running Clan campaigns hilarious, when the ToP winner was totally incompetent as a unit commander...

idea weenie

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #68 on: 07 July 2020, 22:03:00 »
    From one Creator of the Universe to Others...
  Over the decades I have run dozens of campaigns, many extremely entertaining and while I prefer to construct a "thinking man's" scenario, very few of my players campaign in order to think, preferring to shoot their way to victory. With that in mind, a GM has to set various levels of success for scenarios: A) Basic victory: Turn back raiders; B) Morale victory: Send raiders away with bloody noses; C) Positive victory: B with salvage; D) Total victory: C with prisoners; E) Resounding victory: D with valuable data to find raider's main base...etc. A thru C are pretty easy with just muscle; D and E take a little more thought and noncombat abilities, as prisoners and data are usually handed over to authorities at higher levels.
Most of my players always went for the lower-hanging fruit and only aimed their sights higher under the leadership of NPC commanders, sadly. I've run campaigns where none of the players wanted any kind of authority at all and intentionally designed their characters to be totally useless as administrators.
Sometimes, a GM has to dumb-down a campaign to suit the players who only care about combat and nothing else, which made running Clan campaigns hilarious, when the ToP winner was totally incompetent as a unit commander...   

I'd argue the smart mercs went with 'A' primarily, as that guarantees them future business fighting off pirates  ;)

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #69 on: 07 July 2020, 23:38:10 »
I'd argue the smart mercs went with 'A' primarily, as that guarantees them future business fighting off pirates  ;)
  There are many shades of victory and routes to claim it. A is the path of minimal risk and resistance, while E is riskier but results in far greater rewards. Most people are satisfied with the low-hanging fruit.

RifleMech

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #70 on: 08 July 2020, 00:20:57 »
Is there a rule clarification anywhere that confirms this?  ???

TM pg 239 under Infantry Compartment.

Quote
Weight x 1.0 (Infantry or Battle Armor)


Elmoth

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #71 on: 08 July 2020, 00:29:27 »
Alpha Strike does not differentiate between regular infantry and battle armour for transportation.

Great thoughts everybody. Thanks.

Daryk

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #72 on: 08 July 2020, 05:12:22 »
TM pg 239 under Infantry Compartment.
Thank you, kind sir!  :thumbsup:

Geg

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #73 on: 08 July 2020, 10:44:51 »
Are there any other options beyond the PlanetLifters for air freighting mechs around a planet?   Ideally ones that would move a 100Ter?   A lot of this discussion has been about combat.   But I too would be interested in ways to move the party between locations when Dropships are not available.  Having some fluff for some low rent mercs shuffling back and forth between different, feuding, planetary nobility would be helpful.  Especially if it could be something that they can lose and force a change in the dynamic of the campaign.

A lot of conventional transportation like trains and boats are options but they require a lot more friendly infrastructure to help with the move.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #74 on: 08 July 2020, 11:03:10 »
Are there any other options beyond the PlanetLifters for air freighting mechs around a planet?   Ideally ones that would move a 100Ter?

This has been mentioned a few times upstream as the LB-335, but here’s the link:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Longhaul
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #75 on: 08 July 2020, 11:25:06 »
Are there any other options beyond the PlanetLifters for air freighting mechs around a planet?   Ideally ones that would move a 100Ter?   A lot of this discussion has been about combat.   But I too would be interested in ways to move the party between locations when Dropships are not available.  Having some fluff for some low rent mercs shuffling back and forth between different, feuding, planetary nobility would be helpful.  Especially if it could be something that they can lose and force a change in the dynamic of the campaign.

A lot of conventional transportation like trains and boats are options but they require a lot more friendly infrastructure to help with the move.

Well . . . boats can get interesting too.  One of the MWDA stories had a merchant ship- or was it a dredge- converted to being a mech 'amphib' assault ship.  The Dracs have one in the Handbook, the Wakamiya, that has 8 heavy veh bays & 16 light veh bays supported by 3 doors with a large helipad on the aft part of the ship.  With three lift hoists and lots of cargo space it could load some mechs . . .

You also have the WiGE transports in the Koy/Ryu which were specifically designed to increase quick transport without relying on DS (per fluff), each has a hull that can float and carry over 100t of cargo.  The Ryu is the militarized (sort of) version, trading some cargo capacity for a bit of self defense.  Both of them scream to me of having tanks drive on and drive off- I used to regularly drive past the loading practice area for USAF cargo planes
Colt Ward
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Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #76 on: 08 July 2020, 11:36:23 »
To circle back because I got to thinking of it and had once set up a combined arms battalion QRF carried on FB-335 LongHauls (12 Scorpions, 2 foot platoons, AC/5 field gun platoon, 2 towed artillery- BA if available) . . . but you can do the same thing with the Koi/Ryu.

Koi has 123.5t cargo and moves 5/8 while the Ryu can carry 108 . . . so you can get a company on 3 of the WiGE along with 2 companies of supporting foot infantry for a combined arms battalion.  Not bad for moving them a short distance, and then just roll off.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

RifleMech

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #77 on: 12 July 2020, 00:49:37 »
Thank you, kind sir!  :thumbsup:

 :)  You're welcome  :beer:

billtfor3

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #78 on: 13 July 2020, 08:34:08 »
In a few books and scenario packs, I've seen Suborbital Dropship deployments, Naval hauling, and Mag Rail movements.  So I suppose it just matters what is available to the Unit.
SGT Mark McKinnon, Recon Lance McKinnon's Company, 7th Crusis Lancers, Federated Suns



Col Toda

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #79 on: 18 July 2020, 10:06:36 »
Depends on when the planet was settled . If it was during the Star League the infrastructure was optimized for speed and efficient distribution of goods not defense so you would have space ports with maglev rails radiating from it  over land . And huge docks with Industrial mechs by water .

If at Succession or after you place points of manufacturer at the tip of a single peninsula .Have the star port with Arrow IV batteries and ADA ammo to discourage  combat drops and a fortress w sub capital  weapons have the farms further inland connected by river or canal . Have a remote sensor network in place on the peninsula and longtom fire base  to shoot at any dropship that land anywhere in range of the fire base.

Regardless each objective raid target location should have inplace a platoon of battle armor or a company of infantry and a lance of combat vehicles  . Your mechs or either in postion and fast enough to intercept or they aren't  . They maybe fast enough  to intercept after they hit the objective.  The outying mines  just have huge entrance galleys  and  block the entrance with tailings rubble . That buys time for a reaction force to get there.  As for Farming areas have some of the outlying farms put fast acting enzymes in the silo when a unscheduled jump happens with no or hostile  response happens .  The silo becomes a fuel air bomb triggered by a stealth battle armor unit . Say Arrow IV strength 20/10/5 with the overpressure targeting troops in an unsealed combat vehicle .  All it takes is a nice multi role prefab silo design.  Enemy units will know what to look after the first time but small improvised WMD tend to be a morale breaker .
It is also nice to set up an anti flood and irrigation canal system to fill in dry canals with water athead of the retreating force this forces any enemy non jumping mech with an open leg to abandon it .

If initial proper urban planning for defense is not feesable support WIGEs for mech deployment and Lysander naval support for Aerospace assets .

Ideally the land just beyond the peninsula  and are dealing with a defense in depth situation.  With them getting hit with a wave of hovertanks with TAG supportng longtoms with copperheads before your mechs intercept .