Heavy laser, vs pulse laser, vs ER laser (CLAN!!!)

[Colt Ward]

Trying to put that external 15 cap on someone?

[massey]

Generally I prefer the Large Pulse to the ER Large.  If I've got the weight available, it's the pulse every time.  The ER Large isn't bad, but the pulse is better.  I can't remember ever using the Heavy Large.  To me the range and accuracy and heat problems aren't worth it for an extra 6 points of damage.  If I really need that extra punch, I'll find 2 more tons and get the ER PPC.  The Heavy Large might be worth it in certain rare situations, or maybe on certain designs that I don't really use, but it's too situational for me.


With mediums, I think the competition is a lot closer.  ER Mediums are the best (somebody said they're just "average", but I disagree -- they are so good that they set the gold standard for efficiency now).  Medium Pulses have the accuracy advantage at most ranges, and they're a little cooler, but they're twice the weight.  That's a lot.  I can have 8 ER Mediums in place of your 4 Medium Pulses.  Or 5 ERs and 3 extra DHS.  I think the ER is more efficient overall.

The Heavy Medium has a lot of potential.  10 points of damage in a 1 ton energy weapon is just extremely nice.  At that point, it's worth it to get really close and just trade damage with the opponent.  It's worth overheating as long as you're taking shots at good numbers.  I'd happily risk going into shutdown rolls territory if I had enough Heavy Mediums.  I still don't think it's quite as good as the ER Medium or the Medium Pulse, but it's nice.  Whereas the larges are ranked 1... 2......... and a very distant 3, the mediums are 1a... 1b... 1c.


The small lasers are basically different weapon systems from one another.  My ranking here is going to be a little weird.  The Small Pulse Laser is the best, followed by the ER Small, and then the Heavy Small is a distant third.  Technically if you just look at range and damage, the ER Small should count as the best, but it's directly competing against a much better weapon -- the Clan ER Medium Laser.  The ER Small only shines when you've got a half ton left over and you don't know what to do with it.  If you've got a full ton, it's almost always better to take a single ER Medium rather than 2 ER Smalls.  It's a little less damage overall, but the range is so much better that you'll still do more damage over the course of the game.

The Small Pulse is one of the best anti-infantry weapons in the game.  It's not so great for fighting Battlemechs, but the ability to cripple a platoon at easy to-hit numbers is very nice.  It's specialized, but it really shines at that specialty.  The ER Medium just can't compete at that one particular role, and it's not that rare a specialty either.  That's why the Small Pulse is the best to me.

The Heavy Small is a gimmick.  The ER Small is almost always a better choice.  The only real advantage is that it's dirt cheap.  There should probably be a battle armor or something that carries Heavy Smalls.  That would be freakin' awesome.  But for any unit that has a choice between the two, the ER Small is better.

[Colt Ward]

The Heavy Small is a gimmick.  The ER Small is almost always a better choice.  The only real advantage is that it's dirt cheap.  There should probably be a battle armor or something that carries Heavy Smalls.  That would be freakin' awesome.  But for any unit that has a choice between the two, the ER Small is better.

The GDL 'Surat' has the Small . . . wish it was the iSmall though! (and no reason it should not be . . . ).  I have thought since the Small Heavy came out it should be on Elementals, but that was before they had actually released BA design rules IIRC.  The roll out and 3090 'common' use of the improved Heavy just reinforced that Elementals (or Clan Med BA) should be using iSHL.

[Retry]

The GDL 'Surat' has the Small . . . wish it was the iSmall though! (and no reason it should not be . . . ).  I have thought since the Small Heavy came out it should be on Elementals, but that was before they had actually released BA design rules IIRC.  The roll out and 3090 'common' use of the improved Heavy just reinforced that Elementals (or Clan Med BA) should be using iSHL.

Won't fit.  The BA Heavy Small Laser is 500 kg, half of the weight of an Elemental.  At that point, you could replace it with the Medium Laser, or twin AP Gauss Rifles.

[Colt Ward]

Eh, those weights are truly artificial- and like I said I was for it before they introduced the rules.  But the Heavy series weights the same between a mech and a BA when other lasers loses large porthos of the weight?

68% lighter- Micro Pulse (prob rounding reason)
60% lighter- Small Laser, Small Pulse, Medium Pulse
40% lighter- ER Micro
20% lighter- ER Small, ER Medium

The supposed reason is that the cooling & power links, and more specifically the aiming mechanisms, are not used in the BA versions compared to mechs/vehs.  But the Heavies do not have them?

[Retry]

Eh, those weights are truly artificial- and like I said I was for it before they introduced the rules.  But the Heavy series weights the same between a mech and a BA when other lasers loses large porthos of the weight?

68% lighter- Micro Pulse (prob rounding reason)
60% lighter- Small Laser, Small Pulse, Medium Pulse
40% lighter- ER Micro
20% lighter- ER Small, ER Medium

The supposed reason is that the cooling & power links, and more specifically the aiming mechanisms, are not used in the BA versions compared to mechs/vehs.  But the Heavies do not have them?

I'm not arguing against it.  I'm just saying that's how it is right now.

[guardiandashi]

for me each one is a bit different
personally its erppc/er large as roughly equal depending on available weight and space with the large pulse a close second, I haven't used the heavy large much.
with the medium lasers it is the er medium by a huge margin in most cases with the medium pulse and heavy medium a long way behind because for all practical purposes the clan er medium is a 1 ton large laser (minus 1 point of damage, and 3 points of heat) so in a lot of ways at medium to longish ranges its effectively equal to or more accurate than the medium pulse and lighter.

with the small lasers, I believe in most cases the er small is my go to of choice because its a 1/2 ton medium laser with reduced range and if you have 1 ton I would rather have either an er medium, or 2 er smalls than 1 small pulse.

[Talen5000]

Eh, those weights are truly artificial- and like I said I was for it before they introduced the rules.  But the Heavy series weights the same between a mech and a BA when other lasers loses large porthos of the weight?

BA rules are messed up anyway, and the end result is BA that is arguably much more powerful and "munchy" than they should be. Clan systems especially pay a heavy price, artificially narrowing the tech gap by giving them overly heavy weapons.

As for the main topic - Heavy Lasers, like so much of the new Clan tech, is (IMO) overbalanced and worthwhile only in that it allows you to game the BV system. Short ranged, in accurate and with a heavy heat load, the damage increase is too small to justify their use.  They have some use on lights where mass is an issue but overall, they either need more damage or less heat to be viable. But that is JMO.

In truth - it was (again, IMO) a mistake to give the Clans new weapons. I like the Heavy Lasers as flavour pieces and gaming the BV system isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the simple truth is that the Clans didn't really need new weapons and what they got weren't exactly needed. I'd rather have seen the ATM as a heavy missile system - allowing the storage and launch of large missiles, while something akin to a heavy cockpit (4 or 5 IS points) might have been a better choice instead of the heavy lasers.

But again, just my opinion.

Outside of gaming the BV system and back to the OP, you choose between the punch of the ER PPC, the range and low mass of the ER LL and the accuracy and low heat of the LPL. All three have their supporters, and I like all three - though the LPL probably holds an edge in usefulness and average damage, but there is just something about the sheer punch of the ER PPC. I think the ER LL would be my least favourite of the three. It is lighter, smaller and longer ranged than the other two, but isn't quite as interesting.

Same with the mediums and smalls - though the Clans don't have a "light" or "medium" version of the PPC. ER vs Pulse both have advantages and disadvantages giving each overlapping and separate niches. The heavies aren't totally without value, and have some value but again are outshone by their ER and Pulse counterparts.

[IronLichRich31]

In gameplay and construction (though I don't do a lot of custom variants) I prefer pulses over other variants. Since pulses are heavier than er lasers but similar in BV, the bv of the mech can be lower.

I'm not fond of heavy lasers, though a heavy large is a cheap way to shoot someone's face off


EDIT: I have a soft spot for the er large since it has a range advantage over most other weapons, and enables you to poke your opponent to death. You need a mech that can move well enough to keep the range open like the gyrfalcon or the new Ostscout to take advantage of that though.

[garhkal]

I find it strange the clan ER large has a further range than the ER PPC, but that switches for inner sphere.

[Daryk]

The clans went for the extra damage over the extra range.

[Greatclub]

There is one thing that heavy laser is good at beyond its BV cost - it rewards and highlights excellent gunners. You can get a lot of miliage out of a little tonnage with them

Remember when it was developed - the late 3050s? When the clans were still convinced they could steamroll to Terra and their main competition was internal? The consideration of their eugenics over pure military efficiency would've still been a thing.


I suspect we're going to be seeing a lot of ERP lasers in the rec guides. I can't call them good, but they're they genuinely do share some advantages of both pulse and ER lasers. They are heat hogs though, so you cant just do 1 to 1 swaps.

[Retry]

I suspect we're going to be seeing a lot of ERP lasers in the rec guides. I can't call them good, but they're they genuinely do share some advantages of both pulse and ER lasers. They are heat hogs though, so you cant just do 1 to 1 swaps.

The ER Pulse series is a weird compromise weapon.  It takes about half of the advantages of Pulses and about half of the advantages of ERs, but it also takes all of the disadvantages of both, and then some.  The resultant is decidedly less than the sum of its parts.

[Talen5000]

The ER Pulse series is a weird compromise weapon.  It takes about half of the advantages of Pulses and about half of the advantages of ERs, but it also takes all of the disadvantages of both, and then some.  The resultant is decidedly less than the sum of its parts.

IMO - and I've said this before - most of the new Clan weapons (and some IS ones) don't really work that well and would be best relegated as failed experiments.
Having said that, they do offer a bit of variety and some of them do offer flavour....what most of of them don't offer is enough of an advantage to justify their use in anything other than niche units.

I like heavy lasers - but other than using them to game BV, it's hard to justify their use. Sure, you can put them onto a light chassis if an ERPPC doesn't fit, but that only really works if you don't take advantage of the heat sinks by adding extra weapons. Otherwise, the HLL effectively ends up just a half ton lighter to do one extra point of damage with a +1TN at a third less range and one extra crit slot. I like the weapon - but it needs some sort of edge to make it worthwhile taking.

Same with the ERP Lasers - as you say, half the advantages of either, but the full disadvantages of both. You end up with an ER LL that pays two tons, drops two hexes of range gains one heat and triples in size in order to gain a dedicated targeting module and avoid the need to carry a targeting computer. Or looking at it from the PL side - it gains 3 hexes of range, 1 crit and 3 heat but pays for it with a +1 Targeting penalty.

Either way, the trade off isn't worth it.

The original trifecta offered us a choice between damage (ERPPC) and range (ERLL) and accuracy (LPL) where each emphasised one aspect but not to the degree the disadvantages made the other options valueless.

Most of the new weapons could, I feel, easily be dropped and I doubt many would mourn them.

[Greatclub]

I'll take the ERP in a few places though. Replacing the near-useless second PPC on the adder, for example. Or even both of them.

[Brakiel]

I'll take the ERP in a few places though. Replacing the near-useless second PPC on the adder, for example. Or even both of them.

I feel like something like the Skinwalker Prime is what can best leverage the ER Pulse Laser family. Get better accuracy at similar(-ish) range bands as vanilla ER, while still outranging vanilla pulses. 

[vaderi]

IMO - and I've said this before - most of the new Clan weapons (and some IS ones) don't really work that well and would be best relegated as failed experiments.
Having said that, they do offer a bit of variety and some of them do offer flavour....what most of of them don't offer is enough of an advantage to justify their use in anything other than niche units.

...

The original trifecta offered us a choice between damage (ERPPC) and range (ERLL) and accuracy (LPL) where each emphasised one aspect but not to the degree the disadvantages made the other options valueless.

Most of the new weapons could, I feel, easily be dropped and I doubt many would mourn them.

As an exclusively Inner Sphere player, I appreciate the different options since they show a more nuanced Clan Tech base, the original Trifecta smacks of "Must Be Better Because Clan" to me. That being said, yeah they mostly aren't as good as the originals, but when you design a weapon's system to be the absolute best in the game system, it's hard to push the boundary further without breaking something vital. New and bad seems to me to be better than New and Mandatory.

Plus since one of the only clans I like is Clan Blood Spirit, I like playing around with Heavy Lasers.

[Colt Ward]

Huh?  Blood Spirts are . . . ERLLs, LRM15s, and SRM4s . . . or 6s?  I cannot remember.

[Wolf72]

Huh?  Blood Spirts are . . . ERLLs, LRM15s, and SRM4s . . . or 6s?  I cannot remember.

4's ... at least that is what we put in our *Uber*-Mech, the Blood Kite!

Ok, well it is a decent mech.  Not sure what the purpose of the 4's are since the 15's have no min range (crit seeking, got it). (that is another thread)

How does the HLL compare to the Blazer?  They should develop an ER Blazer!

[Brakiel]

How does the HLL compare to the Blazer?  They should develop an ER Blazer!

RISC Hyper Laser?

[Sartris]

one that doesn't explode so often would be preferred

[Wolf72]

one that doesn't explode so often would be preferred

Next you'll be saying using HV AC's on non-infantry units is dangerous, too! ... aaaaand you'd be right.


[edit] looked up blazer, GAH ... Heavier, less damage.  Slightly more manageable heat, and only one more crit.  HLL/iHLL would make a good replacement for it.  But, Blazer is 3025 tech so it gets a 'rule of kewl' in my book.  It is basically a "1+50%, but not quite" Large Laser.  Where the HLL is more like "2x" LL.

[Colt Ward]

4's ... at least that is what we put in our *Uber*-Mech, the Blood Kite!

Ok, well it is a decent mech.  Not sure what the purpose of the 4's are since the 15's have no min range (crit seeking, got it). (that is another thread)

Yeah, Blood Kite, Stooping Hawk, Crimson Langur, and Morrigu & Morrigu (Laser) being the prime Blood Spirit mechs I recognize.

[Daryk]

Next you'll be saying using HV AC's on non-infantry units is dangerous, too! ... aaaaand you'd be right.


[edit] looked up blazer, GAH ... Heavier, less damage.  Slightly more manageable heat, and only one more crit.  HLL/iHLL would make a good replacement for it.  But, Blazer is 3025 tech so it gets a 'rule of kewl' in my book.  It is basically a "1+50%, but not quite" Large Laser.  Where the HLL is more like "2x" LL.

Exactly why I'm a fan of the Blazer Cannon... It's not what you'd hope for, but something that totally fits the 3025 aesthetic...  8)

[Retry]

As an exclusively Inner Sphere player, I appreciate the different options since they show a more nuanced Clan Tech base, the original Trifecta smacks of "Must Be Better Because Clan" to me. That being said, yeah they mostly aren't as good as the originals, but when you design a weapon's system to be the absolute best in the game system, it's hard to push the boundary further without breaking something vital. New and bad seems to me to be better than New and Mandatory.

Agree with the last point, with the caveat that "new and bad" being better than the other doesn't necessarily mean that option is good.

Thing is, there was no real need to over-balance the heavy laser.  Simply without the accuracy penalty, it would have been a specialized but reasonably useful tool in the box without having to resort to BV shenanigans.

As-is though, the Heavy really is an IS weapon that's taken a wrong turn and gotten lost in Clan space.

[Talen5000]

As an exclusively Inner Sphere player, I appreciate the different options since they show a more nuanced Clan Tech base, the original Trifecta smacks of "Must Be Better Because Clan" to me. That being said, yeah they mostly aren't as good as the originals, but when you design a weapon's system to be the absolute best in the game system, it's hard to push the boundary further without breaking something vital. New and bad seems to me to be better than New and Mandatory.

Plus since one of the only clans I like is Clan Blood Spirit, I like playing around with Heavy Lasers.

As I said...I like Heavy Lasers.

I think they add a lot of flavour.

But the originals were over balanced...too many negatives and not enough positives.

That the IHL came out implies to me that TPTB felt the same.

Unfortunately...I don't think the IHL series is much better. Indeed, in some ways, it is worse. That +1 TN...which SHOULD represent the increased charge time rather than a nonsensical interference...added (IMO) a lot of flavour to the weapon. And flavour is one of the best things about the HL series.

But...I still think the HL needs some edge.

For damage, you choose ERPPCs.
For range, ER LLs
For accuracy...LPLs.

What is left? I'd have gone with efficiency. Make the heat value somewhere between 8 and 12.

Then you have a 4 ton, 3 crit weapon dealing 16 damage at 15 hexes. But...because it charges slowly, it only generates 8-12 heat but...also because it charges slowly...you need to lead the target and gain a +1 TN.

So...it is short ranged and inaccurate, but it is efficient. A better reason to use the weapon than trying to game the BV system.

But I am sure others have their own opinion

[massey]

I think the Heavy Medium is still fine.  It's a 1 ton, 10 damage weapon.  That's freakin' awesome.  It's the Heavy Small and Heavy Large that really need work. 

[Talen5000]

I think the Heavy Medium is still fine.  It's a 1 ton, 10 damage weapon.  That's freakin' awesome.  It's the Heavy Small and Heavy Large that really need work.

With a +1 TN. A range of 9 hexes. 2 crits. And generates 7 heat. Its the most desireable of the Heavy series but IMO it still comes in behind the ER or pulse.

[Greatclub]

With a +1 TN. A range of 9 hexes. 2 crits. And generates 7 heat. Its the most desireable of the Heavy series but IMO it still comes in behind the ER or pulse.

The clan er and pulse mediums are among the most effective things in the game. exceeding or even matching them would be clearing an exceptionally high bar, better than the majority of the rest of the clan arsenal.

Oh dear, heavy mediums are only average.

(I'm not denying large and smalls are a tier below that)

[Sartris]

They should have just gone full munch and had heavy lasers as double damage of clan ER weapons