Author Topic: Mech design decisions that make no sense  (Read 142938 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #180 on: 15 January 2019, 00:01:14 »
Hot-loaded LRMs are an optional rule, and given the dangers associated with them they're not a common choice in-universe.  I don't think any mech was ever designed with using hot-loaded missiles.
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truetanker

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #181 on: 15 January 2019, 00:09:28 »
MLO4H~

It was meant as a joke...

Kraken 3 is Bane 3, a clan mech using massed LRMs as it's primary weapon...

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BloodRose

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #182 on: 15 January 2019, 06:11:56 »
Coming back to the shogun, the LRM-15's still make no real sense. In all honesty it would be better off losing the ERPPC and downgrading the 15's to 10's to add in a Large Laser or two and a few Medium Pulse Lasers. And maybe an extra heatsink or two. As it is its not even a good fire support platform, I would rather have an Awesome 8R or T in stead as they are effective bombard units and do not suffer from the major heat issues of the Shogun.
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Ruger

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #183 on: 15 January 2019, 08:49:48 »
Coming back to the shogun, the LRM-15's still make no real sense. In all honesty it would be better off losing the ERPPC and downgrading the 15's to 10's to add in a Large Laser or two and a few Medium Pulse Lasers. And maybe an extra heatsink or two. As it is its not even a good fire support platform, I would rather have an Awesome 8R or T in stead as they are effective bombard units and do not suffer from the major heat issues of the Shogun.

It is a jumping Stalker...use it as such. While the ER PPC model doesn't make much sense, the standard PPC model works perfectly well at this...you get a little warm when firing both LRM's and the PPC, or the SRM's and PPC, so you drop one for the round afterwards. Your pattern would be 3 weapons, then 2 weapons, then 3 weapons, then...and so on...

If you jump, your modifier is likely high, so just use the PPC, unless you have a good enough chance with the missiles...

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BloodRose

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #184 on: 15 January 2019, 09:51:11 »
Even then it is underwhelming, with a rather poor damage output when compared to similar units in that weight bracket. The overall damage output is just too low to really justify the loadout of the Shogun. Though I agree on the standard PPC version (its the one that I use) it is still hot running and still lacks any real damage output. If it went fully into the brawler build I could see it working well but as it is it is just too indecisive about what it wants to be and so ends up being a weird hybrid of a support platform and a brawler/close in urban fighter that really wants to stand off for the majority of its loadout but also wants to be in close to make the most of having those JJ's and SRM's.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #185 on: 15 January 2019, 11:02:56 »
MLO4H~

It was meant as a joke...

Kraken 3 is Bane 3, a clan mech using massed LRMs as it's primary weapon...

TT

Yes, and Clan LRMs don't have a minimum range to begin with so they wouldn't be hot-loaded.  I wasn't replying specifically to you, but to the discussion on hot-loaded LRMS in general.
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Kovax

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #186 on: 15 January 2019, 11:03:43 »
But the whole of aerotech desperately needs to be nuked from orbit and rebooted, designs and all. It has never been a good companion to BT and it's a terrible representation of space combat--either the realistic kind or the starwarsy action kind.

This is probably the most questionable design decision mentioned so far in the thread: the design philosophy behind the Aerotech rules.  As said, nuking them from orbit and starting over from scratch seems to be the best answer.  Many 'Mech design decisions are "questionable"; the equivalent Aerotech boondoggles are incomprehensible, and can only be rationally explained by easy access to recreational chemistry.  A one-winged fighter plane?  Seriously?

Ruger

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #187 on: 15 January 2019, 18:06:12 »
Even then it is underwhelming, with a rather poor damage output when compared to similar units in that weight bracket.

Depends on the era in which a model was created vs when it's being used...but I'll agree to disagree with you and leave it at that...

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AdmiralObvious

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #188 on: 15 January 2019, 18:33:52 »
This is probably the most questionable design decision mentioned so far in the thread: the design philosophy behind the Aerotech rules.  As said, nuking them from orbit and starting over from scratch seems to be the best answer.  Many 'Mech design decisions are "questionable"; the equivalent Aerotech boondoggles are incomprehensible, and can only be rationally explained by easy access to recreational chemistry.  A one-winged fighter plane?  Seriously?

I mean, if you only plan on using the "one wing" in space... it can work. If you plan on actually touching an atmosphere with it... it ain't gonna happen.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #189 on: 15 January 2019, 18:42:01 »
Lifting bodies totally work!  ;)

Kit deSummersville

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #190 on: 16 January 2019, 11:05:47 »
I mean, if you only plan on using the "one wing" in space... it can work. If you plan on actually touching an atmosphere with it... it ain't gonna happen.

Meh, with the fusion output the flying bricks work just as fine as the Corsairs.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #191 on: 16 January 2019, 11:19:53 »
the power of imagination mitigates your silly physics

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Ruger

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #192 on: 16 January 2019, 11:49:54 »
the power of imagination mitigates your silly physics

I prefer Adam Savage's saying:

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

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Kovax

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #193 on: 16 January 2019, 12:19:37 »
I mean, if you only plan on using the "one wing" in space... it can work. If you plan on actually touching an atmosphere with it... it ain't gonna happen.
Yes, it can work, if you apply enough energy to the equation to make wings irrelevant....in which case, why have any wings at all?  One wing makes no sense.

Then you have an Ostsol variant that packs a third LL.  I believe the base model has about enough heat sinks that it can fire both LLs and only build heat for movement (or one point for the weapons), or else throw in the MLs and get a bit hot.  Changing the 2xML to a 3rd LL makes no sense, because the penalties for using that third LL will severely limit you on the next turn, and the 8 additional damage output at 10-15 hexes at a painful overheat price hardly warrants giving up 10 points of damage at 9 hexes or less for less overheat, which can be used IN PLACE OF one of the two LLs to continue pouring on damage at closer range after building heat on the previous round of fire.  I forget what else it has to give up to afford that third big gun that it doesn't have the heatsinks to fire, but it seemed like a reliable way of gimping an otherwise good 'Mech.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #194 on: 16 January 2019, 12:29:00 »
Yes, it can work, if you apply enough energy to the equation to make wings irrelevant....in which case, why have any wings at all?  One wing makes no sense.

Then you have an Ostsol variant that packs a third LL.  I believe the base model has about enough heat sinks that it can fire both LLs and only build heat for movement (or one point for the weapons), or else throw in the MLs and get a bit hot.  Changing the 2xML to a 3rd LL makes no sense, because the penalties for using that third LL will severely limit you on the next turn, and the 8 additional damage output at 10-15 hexes at a painful overheat price hardly warrants giving up 10 points of damage at 9 hexes or less for less overheat, which can be used IN PLACE OF one of the two LLs to continue pouring on damage at closer range after building heat on the previous round of fire.  I forget what else it has to give up to afford that third big gun that it doesn't have the heatsinks to fire, but it seemed like a reliable way of gimping an otherwise good 'Mech.

Got a reference on that? Sarna doesn't show a variant with 3 LLs. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ostsol
MasterUnitList shows only the same 10 versions, so no discrepancy there.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #195 on: 16 January 2019, 12:32:22 »
i think he meant the ostroc 3C. it has x3 LL and 15 SHS

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #196 on: 16 January 2019, 16:00:57 »
i think he meant the ostroc 3C. it has x3 LL and 15 SHS

Thanks.

That said, it is an LL replacing 2mlas and SRM4.  So heat wise it is neutral. It just doesn't allow for fine tuning the heat. Not the best idea, but if some of those heat sinks are in the legs and you can get into water, it would work.
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #197 on: 16 January 2019, 16:33:44 »
Gaining heat isn't the biggest sin in the world.  I don't think it's a great design, but it's not that bad.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #198 on: 16 January 2019, 17:08:41 »
Gaining heat isn't the biggest sin in the world.  I don't think it's a great design, but it's not that bad.

+9 heat firing all three and standing still. Not bad if you have TSM :)
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #199 on: 16 January 2019, 17:34:56 »
Meh, with the fusion output the flying bricks work just as fine as the Corsairs.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #200 on: 16 January 2019, 19:04:30 »
It was the principle of how the F4 operated, after all.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #201 on: 17 January 2019, 04:48:15 »
The Bombadier's secondary armament still makes no sense to me.  You have 5/8 movement with dual LRM 20s. You should be fast or faster then most counter battery mechs or vehicles.  1 SRM 4 isn't going to dissuade anything lighter then 25 tons, especially if the enemy has fast moving hovercraft or VTOLs
 It's even worse as the years go on with new Clan and IS light and medium mechs such as the Talos or the Davion 3050 Centurion.

Rip out the SRM-4 and the anti-missile system, and take a lesson from your uncle Archer.  Add 5 medium lasers and a small when you run into the inevitable rush of close range units instead. Thunders would be a good option as well.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #202 on: 17 January 2019, 10:19:10 »
i think he meant the ostroc 3C. it has x3 LL and 15 SHS
Thanks, that's clearly the 'Mech I was remembering, but it's been a decade or so since I looked at the record sheet for it: 3 LLs and 15 heatsinks (I wasn't sure if it had 15 or 16, but clearly that's about right for 2xLLs plus one or two secondary weapons, NOT for 3xLL).  Taking it one step further, with the SRMs gone, is it still an Ostroc, rather than having been converted into an Ostsol?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #203 on: 17 January 2019, 11:00:04 »
Thanks, that's clearly the 'Mech I was remembering, but it's been a decade or so since I looked at the record sheet for it: 3 LLs and 15 heatsinks (I wasn't sure if it had 15 or 16, but clearly that's about right for 2xLLs plus one or two secondary weapons, NOT for 3xLL).  Taking it one step further, with the SRMs gone, is it still an Ostroc, rather than having been converted into an Ostsol?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #204 on: 17 January 2019, 11:35:42 »

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #205 on: 17 January 2019, 16:01:56 »
Is the WSP-1K a Wasp or Stinger?
yes?

No, a Stinger has more firepower. :)

and the 1K has 17% more armor [3.5t vs 3.0t]
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #206 on: 17 January 2019, 16:07:40 »
Gaining heat isn't the biggest sin in the world.  I don't think it's a great design, but it's not that bad.

The 80s were just different. Mechs were a lot less optimized. With the Unseen designed as WYSIWYG there was less armor around. Wacky experiments could and did work.

In this case it is 3 big scary 8 point hits that can strip a Mech open and reach 20 points for the pilot roll. You wear heat but you can still move away at a reasonable pace for a 3025 heavy with no ammo to overheat.

So yeah it works in context. These days the construction options are a lot more refined even without considering the damage bump from DHS etc. We still get wacky experiments but they feel very different.

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #207 on: 17 January 2019, 16:30:15 »
yes?


No, a Stinger has more firepower. :)

and the 1K has 17% more armor [3.5t vs 3.0t]

Bugs all squash the same to me

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #208 on: 18 January 2019, 08:37:32 »
The Bombadier's secondary armament still makes no sense to me.  You have 5/8 movement with dual LRM 20s. You should be fast or faster then most counter battery mechs or vehicles.  1 SRM 4 isn't going to dissuade anything lighter then 25 tons, especially if the enemy has fast moving hovercraft or VTOLs
 It's even worse as the years go on with new Clan and IS light and medium mechs such as the Talos or the Davion 3050 Centurion.

Rip out the SRM-4 and the anti-missile system, and take a lesson from your uncle Archer.  Add 5 medium lasers and a small when you run into the inevitable rush of close range units instead. Thunders would be a good option as well.

You're 5/8 and 65 tons. Don't bother with secondary weapons, anything that can catch you is going to feel the hurt in melee.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #209 on: 18 January 2019, 12:04:54 »
The Bombadier's secondary armament still makes no sense to me.  You have 5/8 movement with dual LRM 20s. You should be fast or faster then most counter battery mechs or vehicles.  1 SRM 4 isn't going to dissuade anything lighter then 25 tons, especially if the enemy has fast moving hovercraft or VTOLs
 It's even worse as the years go on with new Clan and IS light and medium mechs such as the Talos or the Davion 3050 Centurion.

Rip out the SRM-4 and the anti-missile system, and take a lesson from your uncle Archer.  Add 5 medium lasers and a small when you run into the inevitable rush of close range units instead. Thunders would be a good option as well.

Heavens no, I'd mount more ammo for the LRMs before fitting a bunch of lasers.  The point of the Bombardier is that it's an Inner Sphere missile support heavy that can keep up with a heavy cavalry lance and in that respect it's pretty much unique, but only six turns of fire makes me sad...

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