'Mech of the Week: Ursus/Ursus II

[Diablo48]

Which assumes the Bears are churning out Supernovas . . . they are not.  Only something worth the protection of assaults is going to get one.  Your also overlooking the comment after the Ursus was introduced dueling between Clan forces is on the decline, never mind rarely given to the IS.

While production is a factor (although I think the Nova Cats were making Supernovas in the IS for a while which is basically a production line for the Bears with the way we take their stuff), you are completely misrepresenting my argument.  I have never been talking about duels or "kill all the things" brawls or one-on-one comparisons.  I am purely talking about point defense missions of strategic points and saying that one Supernova is better than two Ursuses in that roll so while it may be an assault, it is half as many actual 'Mechs and MechWarriors.

I am not sure where a IS force can fight at Clan ranges . . . the MRM-armed Dracs?  Against Avatars and Sunders it stands a pretty good chance.  Against Warhammer 7K & 8K- 7K is more balanced, has more armor but roughly the same long range power while the LRMs hold out, medium range definitely favors the Ursus.  8K would be tougher as it has those big 15 point hits, but it has to get much closer to make those hits.  Grasshopper series?  Ursus matches up really well except unable to jump.  No-Daichi?  Combine mech has to get in close . . . Crusader 4K & 5K? First is more dangerous with LRMs, while the ammo lasts . . . the other has MRMs, again it closes to at least ERML range if not more.  Catapult K seres?  A bit more ranged firepower and it can jump . . . this is more challenging if K3 which is a prototype and the K4 which is a baby WHM-8K, the K5 is bait just like the MRM Crusader.

What heavies does the Combine sport in the '60s that can really outfight the Ursus?  What heavies do they have later that can do it?  If I was a Ghost Bear Star Commander in charge of a garrison star containing a Ursus or two along with its likely companions and I was told two lances of Kurita heavies were inbound on a raid, I would be excited.  A chance for a great victory to get me moved up to a frontline unit and maybe noticed for a Bloodname.

I am not intimately familiar with what the DCMS has in terms of 'Mechs, but any heavy with a Gauss Rifle or at least 15 damage worth of ERPPCs, LRMs, UAC 5's, and other long range weapons will do exactly what I am saying Clan 'Mechs will do thanks to their heavier armor and chew up an Ursus.  A good DCMS example of what I am talking about is the poorly regarded Daikyu (which I only remember because of its twin UAC 5's) which predates the Ursus by six years and will chew up an Ursus with ease while saving the DCMS player 175 BV.  I am sure there are plenty of other designs because Gauss Rifles are fantastic weapons that get used all over the place and everyone has LRM boats of one form or another, but I think I have made my point.

Am I alone in thinking the Ursus 2 wouldn't be so bad if it didn't fall prey to 1st gen omni syndrome? That annoying tendency to over ammo short ranged high endurance guns while putting one ton of ammo on gauss rifles or other low-ammo ballistics? (Glares meaningfully at the Nova and Summoner) a plasma cannon has 20 shots per ton, right? More than sufficient for your usual engagements, while 12 HAG shots is skimpy, but at least useable. I wouldn't mind using a corrected Ursus 2 in that situation, Considering the price.

It is 10 shots per ton, not 20.  That makes the ammo situation understandable for dealing with vehicles, although the HAG-20 is just a bad weapon no matter how you look at it and is really what keeps this model from excelling.

Hellstar vs/ two Ursus... Let's give it a 3/4 pilot as well just for kicks.

The Ursus (Ursii?) run 5-6 towards, the Hellstar backs away 3-4. At long range the ERPPCs are hitting at 10s, the ERLLs and LRMs at 11s. That's just ~3 hits until it gets to medium range, and maybe two more before the Ursus MPLs get into range at which point the firepower advantage starts to swing towards the lighter machines.

The Hellstar should have taken some 30-40 damage by then.

In open terrain the Hellstar will probably win, but it won't take much covering terrain to swing the odds towards the Ursus. And of course some smoke missiles can make things very interesting! ;)

And then a light 'Mech or vehicle cuts in behind the Ursuses and torches the infrastructure they were supposed to be defending resulting in a decisive victory for the attacker.  The Ursuses can definitely try to do things if they are allowed to maneuver, but the whole point of the design is defense which requires them to stay put and let the enemy dictate range so it has to be prepared to fight at a distance which is something it is very bad at.

There are uses for short range designs like the Kodiak which you can hide behind terrain until you need them because they contribute nothing from a distance, but the Ursus does not have the short range firepower to do that and the Bears most definitely have plenty of Kodiaks for the job.

As Colt Ward said the Ursus is a garrison machine. If some hostiles landed nearby with a gaggle of Hellstars then the Bear commander would not engage those dedicated mech killers with his GP garrison mechs.  A garrison mech must basically be a jack of all trades, tough enough to take a lick or three and with enough guns to generally deal with most predicted threats that it would encounter in its mostly defensive role. 

Sure a Supernova could do the job probably better than a gaggle of Ursuses...Ursaii? Ursususususes?  But unless your on some bloody important world, you're not gonna have a large number of Supernovas waddling around on defensive jobs. I don't know if the clan's can even build the SNova in the inner sphere and as the years go on (if they can't) then that big machine is going to become rarer and rarer and would probably be the command mech for a Garrison cluster rather than a front line trooper.

As for them facing Hellstars...please, you're putting a 50 tonne mech from 3059 against a 3085 design, one that is rightly feared and is generally viewed as OP and a lil bit broken, one that looks at a Direwolf, grins and then bellows I'M GOIN' IN DRY! before opening up with its PPCs. 

The point of the Ursus was to basically give the Bears their first new homegrown machine, one that was not some uber death machine, but a general purpose trooper and garrison mech that's not too dissimilar to their larger and older brother the Grizzly.  And it does this job well, at a fairly cheap cost of 4.5 million C-bills (the Hellstar rocks in at 25.8 mil Cbills, SNova at 9.3 mil so in monitary costs you get 2 Ursus for 1 Snova another point in its favour, it's 'cheap' and can be produced in large numbers). 

The Ursus is not really a frontline machine, yes you put it up against top rate IS heavies and its going to be in trouble even if it does punch above its weight, but for the units often involved in raids and the like which tends to be lights, mediums and fast (thus undergunned) heavies, it does perfectly well.  And if not, fall back and let the big boys of the Garrison cluster wade in like the Kodiak, the Grizzly, and if the years late enough probably a few Bruins as well. And considering the Sea Foxes are mass producing them lets throw a few Mad Cat Mk II Enhanced into that mix as well. 

The Ursus is a perfectly good mech at what it does.

That was exactly the perspective I was already looking at the Ursus from, and you just underscored my point on the superiority of the simpler Supernova.  One Supernova will do the job of two Ursuses and then some, and the Supernova is the more cost effective option of the two to boot.  While it does cost slightly more up front, operational costs are much lower with half the required personnel, no ammo to worry about, and thicker, cheaper armor to lower repair costs.  That means the tiny .3 million C-Bill difference will quickly turn around because the Supernova is cheaper to operate weather the unit is fighting or not.

4 x bot vs bot games on 2 x 'Battletech' maps. Ursus are yet to lose.

The specs of the Ursus are all about fluff. Cheap on c bills and BV while relatively effective. A mid range mauler you need a river to make stand off tactics work against it.

So you are having them fight on a postage stamp, ignoring the restrictions of a defensive scenario, and using the bot which will wander its dedicated snipers into short range against brawlers.  I am not exactly sold on the accuracy of your test.

[Jellico]

Who is being unrealistic here? The Ursus outranges the Hellstar. It gets to play the reversing game first.

That said I agree the Ursus is no sniper. But again, unless the terrain is very restrictive it is difficult to stop the Ursus getting into effective range.

Of course if the invader is retreating the Ursus can retreat too. You have specified a defensive scenario. So the attacker has to come to the Ursus. But then you say the attacker has a second unit to perform an end run around the defenders. Well you can't beat that. But you are expanding the scenario out beyond single 'Mech comparisons into full Stars and beyond.

In my practice I usually run a 4/6 heavy (eg Grizzly) with a fast heavy (eg Arcas or Thresher depending on era) and a 4/6 medium (eg Ursus or Wyvern IIC) with a faster medium (SHawk IIC 2, or Clint IIC, etc) with either a light (Horned Owl or Locust IIC) or a assault (Kodiak or Supernova) rounding out the Star. The fast/slow mix is borne out of the CGB RATs back to FM:WC. Obviously the 'Mechs change according to era as the above indicates. The spare 'Mech swings between short range or long range as the Star requires for balance.

The point is the Ursus is part of a large group which it complements. Low costs (weight, BV, CBills, whatever is your poison) frees up space for better units elsewhere in the Star.

Take a 3060 Star. I would go something like

Supernova, Black Knight, Thresher, Ursus, and Clint IIC. The Black Knight and Ursus are the solid middle. The Supernova is the fire support and the Thresher and Clint are the sweepers. This is not what I call a high powered Star, but its the kind of thing the expanding Bears were using for garrison work in 3060 and it is balanced. Such a Star can take on a 3060 DC Company easily enough.

As a final note. Strategic mobility is by Broadsword DropShip. Endless maps is a silly game.

[Deadborder]

One minor clarification: The Ghost Bears don't take Nova Cat stuff. They burn it to the ground and utterly destroy it.

[Scotty]

Also a minor correction:  plasma cannons get 20 shots per ton.  Plasma rifles are the ones that get 10.  This makes the ammo loadout headscratchingly bad.

[GreekFire]

Also a minor correction:  plasma cannons get 20 shots per ton.  Plasma rifles are the ones that get 10.  This makes the ammo loadout headscratchingly bad.

Nope, it's still 10 shots per ton.

[Diplominator]

The ammo loadout is still headscratchingly bad, though. Glad to hear I'm not the only one who hopes they melted down all the Ursus 2s, or maybe they just gave most of them to the Hell's Horses (the MUL says they both use them as of the Republic era).

Also, thanks for all the kind words about the article. As is probably pretty apparent, I had fun writing it.

[Lagbreaker]

I dont know where the notion of DC or IS in general having issues with the Ursus come from. From all the clan mechs the IS can face fighting an Ursus is relieving.

Starting with the old TRO 3050 DC was more than equipped to fight clanners and later TROs just added to the arsenal of useful clan fighting mechs.

Of the top of my head:

Wolftrap-1
Phoenix Hawk-3K
Wolverine-7K
Grand Dragon-5K
Marauder-5D

later other good mechs are added:

Venom-9KA and later the -9KC
Wraith
Sunder A
Maelstrom-5K
Firestarter Omni B
Black Hawk KU Prime
Tessen
Ninja-Tos
No-dachis
etc.

Most of these mechs can keep pace with many clan mechs in their weight class. Since the Ursus is much more expensive than many of those IS mechs and lacks the stopping power at range, its not a question if the IS hordes can get into range, only when. And 16X armor is only going to last so long considering its on a 4/6 fast frame.

[Colt Ward]

You are citing a few faster ones, though nothing you mention can match the range or superior brackets of the cERLL.

Its not about 'good' mechs, it is about what it could expect to face in a raid as a secondline machine- which is not always going to be the DC's cutting edge.  Check the list I offered, most of them are going to have to get in close (especially anything armed with the MRM lemons) to fight which means they will be inside the cERLL and LRM medium range and long range for the cERML or if close enough the cMPL.  Sure you can cherry pick those Omni configs, but if the Ursus is facing the Sunder then the Clan force already has a few problems.  None of the Avatar configs really match up, and that BH Ku Prime has to get to 12 hexes with both arms still attached.  Firestarter B?  10 hexes, 6 is more ideal and it is like throwing out the Wraith as the standard medium mech.  My list gave a general run down of the line machines the Ursus might face- Warhammer 7K, Grasshopper 6K & C, No Daichis, Crusader 4K & 5K, Catapult K3, K4 & K5, Grand & norm Dragons (I left out, looking at 4/6s)- all of those barely have any more ranged firepower than the Ursus, and when they get in close the longer ranges of the close in Clan weapons will give them punch sooner.

Again, send me two lances of FMU random Drac heavies against a Ghost Bear garrison star (just as Jellico described, which is average) and I will be one happy Bear warrior knowing my glory is coming to me.

Edit-  Just looked at the TRO3085 DC RAT . . . yeah, not much to fear there on the heavy list either.  Biggest threats would be the Warhammer 8K with the dual HPPCs and the Marauder 9W2, the latter will struggle to get into range IMO.

[Lagbreaker]

I´ve given you examples of DC mechs that work vs Clans. You and me both have played on lvl 2 mekwars servers before. As a clanner you´d expect to face those units. But then again I doubt as a Clan player you´d field most of those units in that GB garrison star either if you want to maximize your chance of winning. Whether those mechs are cutting edge or not I dont know, thats a fluff issue not a game mechanics one. I listed mechs from 3050 TRO on forward, but I´d concede I dont care much or know about the fluff. I know what faction has access to what units, but I know little in what amounts and ratios they are used and what is considered a representative average force or an iconic one.

Because of that please choose whatever you think the DCMS would send to defeat a GB clan garrison star and highlights the strength of the Ursus. If that´s heavy mechs only, so be it.

I suggest default pilots?
Clanners are 3/4 and IS are 4/5.
Map size 50 x 50 hex? I think Legends used about that size, should be more than enough for a game at those BVs.

[Jellico]

tarting with the old TRO 3050 DC was more than equipped to fight clanners and later TROs just added to the arsenal of useful clan fighting mechs.

Of the top of my head:

Wolftrap-1
Phoenix Hawk-3K
Wolverine-7K
Grand Dragon-5K
Marauder-5D

later other good mechs are added:

Venom-9KA and later the -9KC
Wraith
Sunder A
Maelstrom-5K
Firestarter Omni B
Black Hawk KU Prime
Tessen
Ninja-Tos
No-dachis
etc.

Most of these mechs can keep pace with many clan mechs in their weight class. Since the Ursus is much more expensive than many of those IS mechs and lacks the stopping power at range, its not a question if the IS hordes can get into range, only when. And 16X armor is only going to last so long considering its on a 4/6 fast frame.

An Ursus costs 4.5 million and 1778 BV.
An Ursus II costs 8.9 million and 2069 BV.

Wolftrap-1                7.9 million and 1070 BV.
Phoenix Hawk-3K      8.2 million and 1359 BV.
Wolverine-7K            9.9 million and 1331 BV.
Grand Dragon-5K     13.3 million and 1358 BV.
Marauder-5D           15.8 million and 1787 BV.

I would comfortably put an Ursus against any of these 'Mechs and only expect a fair fight against the Marauder, as BV suggests.
They are more tactically mobile, but given you can put two Ursus in the field for the same price is that a problem? On a CBill balanced system if you commit any of these 'Mechs as a counter against an Ursus the Ursus has already won.

Venom-9KA and later the -9KC 6.3 million and 865 BV. 6.8 and 939BV.
Wraith                          13 million and 1287BV
Sunder A                        27 million and 2003BV
Maelstrom-5K                 18 million and 1694BV
Firestarter Omni B          10.4 million and 1070BV
Black Hawk KU Prime       14.5 million and 1731BV
Tessen                           10 million and 1243BV
Ninja-To 4                      16.4 million and 1762BV
No-dachi 2K                    17.8 million and 1739BV

This list is important for being illustrative. An IS 'Mech needs to be at least 60 tons and running an XL engine to get close to the combat effectiveness of an Ursus. That's Clantech for you. Heck given standard 3/4 pilots an Ursus out BVs a Sunder A (but the armour difference means the win will probably go to the Sunder.).
In several cases you can try and mis-position the Ursus, but if battle is joined the Ursus is at least equal.
On a 50 x 50 map a 4/6 'Mech needs to be away of where its Starmates are and what the objectives are, but that is nothing new and fairly standard for trooper 'Mechs. Also the Ursus' pulse lasers make jumpy jumpy 'Mechs like the Wraith have to take notice. Its not devastating, but those 'Mechs aren't as invulnerable as others.

I should point out the 4/6/6 movement of the Ursus II makes it comparably manoeuvrable to a Firestarter II or Tessen or PHawk and the BV increases accordingly, as does the price of the XL engine.

[Wrangler]

I do like Ursus as a trooper machine, handy when you want uncomplicated but tough machine plow down your enemies.

Ursus II is interesting, but i do prefer the original over it despite the advantages it does offer.

Jellico, how is cost of BattleMech done? Its been long time since I've seen hard numbers for the C-Bill value on machines.

Are they different in the late Dark Age?  I'd imagine that the numbers you have are from the TechManual and whatever equipment is mentioned in TacOps.

[Colt Ward]

I would definitely be willing to run a proof game, do we know of any DC units that were raiding the Bears in '66 or '67?  I am sure we can find someone with FMU, since mine is in a box somewhere, to roll up two lances of random Dracs for whatever unit was raiding and randomly get 3 more Bear mechs to fill out a star containing 2 Ursus.

[Lagbreaker]

I would definitely be willing to run a proof game, do we know of any DC units that were raiding the Bears in '66 or '67?  I am sure we can find someone with FMU, since mine is in a box somewhere, to roll up two lances of random Dracs for whatever unit was raiding and randomly get 3 more Bear mechs to fill out a star containing 2 Ursus.

Fine by me. Just post the units when ready, I am curious what units I get to play with and which ones I am facing.

An Ursus costs 4.5 million and 1778 BV.
An Ursus II costs 8.9 million and 2069 BV.

Wolftrap-1                7.9 million and 1070 BV.
Phoenix Hawk-3K      8.2 million and 1359 BV.
Wolverine-7K            9.9 million and 1331 BV.
Grand Dragon-5K     13.3 million and 1358 BV.
Marauder-5D           15.8 million and 1787 BV.

I would comfortably put an Ursus against any of these 'Mechs and only expect a fair fight against the Marauder, as BV suggests.
They are more tactically mobile, but given you can put two Ursus in the field for the same price is that a problem? On a CBill balanced system if you commit any of these 'Mechs as a counter against an Ursus the Ursus has already won.

Venom-9KA and later the -9KC 6.3 million and 865 BV. 6.8 and 939BV.
Wraith                          13 million and 1287BV
Sunder A                        27 million and 2003BV
Maelstrom-5K                 18 million and 1694BV
Firestarter Omni B          10.4 million and 1070BV
Black Hawk KU Prime       14.5 million and 1731BV
Tessen                           10 million and 1243BV
Ninja-To 4                      16.4 million and 1762BV
No-dachi 2K                    17.8 million and 1739BV

This list is important for being illustrative. An IS 'Mech needs to be at least 60 tons and running an XL engine to get close to the combat effectiveness of an Ursus. That's Clantech for you. Heck given standard 3/4 pilots an Ursus out BVs a Sunder A (but the armour difference means the win will probably go to the Sunder.).
In several cases you can try and mis-position the Ursus, but if battle is joined the Ursus is at least equal.
On a 50 x 50 map a 4/6 'Mech needs to be away of where its Starmates are and what the objectives are, but that is nothing new and fairly standard for trooper 'Mechs. Also the Ursus' pulse lasers make jumpy jumpy 'Mechs like the Wraith have to take notice. Its not devastating, but those 'Mechs aren't as invulnerable as others.

I should point out the 4/6/6 movement of the Ursus II makes it comparably manoeuvrable to a Firestarter II or Tessen or PHawk and the BV increases accordingly, as does the price of the XL engine.

So we went from the Ursus being a bane to the IS, equipped to destroy any IS heavies, at one time even threatening Hellstars to not quite being able to handle the cutting edge, the faster or the good DCMS mechs (sry Colt I couldnt resisist here ;o), but to be fair you made it clear early in this discussion that you had predominantly slower an/or MRM armed mechs in mind).

Now even C-bill cost plays a factor in a discussion about combat effectiveness on the board. Since c-bill cost is a useless yardstick even within the same techbase to measure how well a mech performs on the map I leave this to the people that actually balance their game using cbills. It´s their issue not mine.
But if you think that there is no problem comparing, say the clan to an IS large pulse laser, which if I understand correctly cost both the same 175k cbills to you, I don´t know what you are talking about.

That clan mechs have higher BV and are lighter compared to IS ones is self evident to anyone who has seen record sheets or weapon stats before, let alone played the game on both sides. I don´t see what your point is here.

[Diablo48]

Fine by me. Just post the units when ready, I am curious what units I get to play with and which ones I am facing.

I am no expert, but I would expect at least one of the ERPPC Panthers (either the -10K or -10K2) to show up because I know they are Combine favorites, and there will probably be a Dragon/Grand Dragon in there as well.  The Panther should be a good cost effective long range direct fire support unit, and the -5K Grand Dragon will wreck the Ursus because of its huge speed advantage and slightly better long range firepower (more LRM ammo means more damage in a long range skirmish) while costing significantly less BV.

So we went from the Ursus being a bane to the IS, equipped to destroy any IS heavies, at one time even threatening Hellstars to not quite being able to handle the cutting edge, the faster or the good DCMS mechs (sry Colt I couldnt resisist here ;o), but to be fair you made it clear early in this discussion that you had predominantly slower an/or MRM armed mechs in mind).

Now even C-bill cost plays a factor in a discussion about combat effectiveness on the board. Since c-bill cost is a useless yardstick even within the same techbase to measure how well a mech performs on the map I leave this to the people that actually balance their game using cbills. It´s their issue not mine.
But if you think that there is no problem comparing, say the clan to an IS large pulse laser, which if I understand correctly cost both the same 175k cbills to you, I don´t know what you are talking about.

That clan mechs have higher BV and are lighter compared to IS ones is self evident to anyone who has seen record sheets or weapon stats before, let alone played the game on both sides. I don´t see what your point is here.

Yeah, C-Bills are completely worthless as far as I am concerned.  I only ever briefly discussed that because someone else brought it up when comparing the Ursus with the Supernova even though that useless metric gives the Supernova the advantage.

[Jellico]

I don't think anyone has claimed the Ursus to be the greatest mech ever. Its advantages are being cheap and reliably solid and giving good performance for its BV.

You seem to be equating that with being the love child of the Septicemia and the Storm Crow.

[Auren]

An Ursus in a good firing position will make life hell for standard DCMS heavies. Not only does it hit as hard as they do at similar ranges but its a tough trooper so standard DCMS shock tactics don't work all that well. Even the Combine's light mech doctrine would suffer going up against multiple Ursii, especially if they are in a formation to cover one another, leaving fast back stabbers stuck in an MPL web while they hammer at the heavies with ERLLs.

The DCMS might take the position from the Ursii but it wouldn't be without great cost.

[Colt Ward]

Alright, so I picked up two Ursus, Arcas, Guillotine IIC and a Mad Cat Mk II when I rolled up besides the Ursus.  The Guillotine IIC was a sub for a Summoner, rolled the 12.  Likewise, the standard Mk II for the Enhanced.  Random regular Clan pilots makes the force 16k.

So, randomly rolled 2 lances of Drac mechs . . . 5 heavies, 1 assault, 2 mediums?  Or just throw 2 lances of heavies?  Do we know of any Drac unit likely to raid the Bears in '66 or '67?  If so, I just need to get with someone who has FMU to have the Dracs rolled up to see how this goes . . .

[wellspring]

On the table top, we use BV. In that realm, insofar as you can say "that unit is good (or bad) for its BV", you've identified a flaw in the BV system.

In universe, they've never heard of BV. Their budgets are written in c-bills or the equivalent. The Clans may use something qualitative and intuitive to determine what the right cutdown is for bidding in a Trial, but in real combat, the whole point of strategy is to create tactical situations that are as unbalanced (in your favor) as possible. Meanwhile, the whole point of procurement is to get the most effectiveness (what we'd call BV) per c-bill.

So c-bills or kerenskies or what have you may be "irrelevant" when you're doing a pickup game at your FLGS, but inside the setting it's the only game in town. This is a second-line machine. In the front line of my touman, I want tightly optimized dueling mechs. But for the garrisons, especially considering all the worlds I have to hold, this is a friggin' sweet mech for the budget.

[Lagbreaker]

Alright, so I picked up two Ursus, Arcas, Guillotine IIC and a Mad Cat Mk II when I rolled up besides the Ursus.  The Guillotine IIC was a sub for a Summoner, rolled the 12.  Likewise, the standard Mk II for the Enhanced.  Random regular Clan pilots makes the force 16k.

So, randomly rolled 2 lances of Drac mechs . . . 5 heavies, 1 assault, 2 mediums?  Or just throw 2 lances of heavies?  Do we know of any Drac unit likely to raid the Bears in '66 or '67?  If so, I just need to get with someone who has FMU to have the Dracs rolled up to see how this goes . . .

I am fine with whatever you assign to me.
I played a couple of games using forces generated by the FMU RATs maybe a decade ago. Just vaguely remember that the Fed Suns tables outclassed every IS faction in the quality of the mech entries, not much else.

[Sabelkatten]

On the table top, we use BV. In that realm, insofar as you can say "that unit is good (or bad) for its BV", you've identified a flaw in the BV system.

In universe, they've never heard of BV. Their budgets are written in c-bills or the equivalent. The Clans may use something qualitative and intuitive to determine what the right cutdown is for bidding in a Trial, but in real combat, the whole point of strategy is to create tactical situations that are as unbalanced (in your favor) as possible. Meanwhile, the whole point of procurement is to get the most effectiveness (what we'd call BV) per c-bill.

So c-bills or kerenskies or what have you may be "irrelevant" when you're doing a pickup game at your FLGS, but inside the setting it's the only game in town. This is a second-line machine. In the front line of my touman, I want tightly optimized dueling mechs. But for the garrisons, especially considering all the worlds I have to hold, this is a friggin' sweet mech for the budget.

I'm guessing most people who view c-bill costs as irrelevant has simply noticed that the official costs are beyond broken, and thus want to use something that makes some kind of sense.

If you want a great example, it's quite easy to make heavy/assault omnimechs that are cheaper than identical regular mechs - and bring a bit of extra spares along!

[Nikas_Zekeval]

The point of the Ursus was to basically give the Bears their first new homegrown machine, one that was not some uber death machine, but a general purpose trooper and garrison mech that's not too dissimilar to their larger and older brother the Grizzly.  And it does this job well, at a fairly cheap cost of 4.5 million C-bills (the Hellstar rocks in at 25.8 mil Cbills, SNova at 9.3 mil so in monitary costs you get 2 Ursus for 1 Snova another point in its favour, it's 'cheap' and can be produced in large numbers). 

I'd say this is the point.  3059 is pretty close on the heels of moving completely into the Inner Sphere for the Bears.  And the Ursus has the stats of a machine meant to take advantage of local manufacture.  Outside of the heatsinks, weapons, ECM, and armor?  The base chassis is pure Succession Wars level technology.  I could see the Bears retooling captured factories to churn out the chassis components while setting up weapon and armor factories to finish the outfitting.

In short, something to throw out quickly, to keep you from loosing ground while building more powerful mechs.  Not superflashy, but a solid laser array with missile backup to hold the line while the Bears set up shop.

[Kotetsu]

In short, something to throw out quickly, to keep you from loosing ground while building more powerful mechs.  Not superflashy, but a solid laser array with missile backup to hold the line while the Bears set up shop.

And perhaps to work out any bugs in the production lines before you get down to the business of making an OmniMech for the "true" warriors.

[Diablo48]

I'm guessing most people who view c-bill costs as irrelevant has simply noticed that the official costs are beyond broken, and thus want to use something that makes some kind of sense.

If you want a great example, it's quite easy to make heavy/assault omnimechs that are cheaper than identical regular mechs - and bring a bit of extra spares along!

Yeah, the fact that identical and fully interchangeable omni pods have different costs depending on how you get them is just mind bogglingly stupid, and the whole system appears to be totally out of sink with the realities of what is produced in-universe, especially on the Clan side where it looks like XLEs are more common than the supposed standard even on budget machines.  That whole system needs a complete overhaul and separate systems for Clan and IS designs because it is just nonsense as is.

[marauder648]

I've just realised something.  The Ursus Ursii? Ursuses have been joined by yet another fairly slow but well armed medium mech in the form of the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gravedigger

Does this give the Ursus and its kin yet another competitor for the fat slow medium category the Bears seem to like trying to fill up.  (And don't forget the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mongrel_(BattleMech) either).

[God and Davion]

I ran a game today with an ursus in one of the armies. It managed to land a lot of damage before a not-so-smart movement ended with him having 3 mechs in its back.  #P #P Overall, one of the best units in that army.

[Kidd]

Indeed, enough has been said about costs and FASAnomics that we need not go into that further. But taking the universe at its face value (no pun intended)...

I saw a game system which deducts a wear-and-tear cost every time a unit is used in combat. This mechanic functions to force players to purchase units, but reminded me of real world operating costs of military equipment which can range from essentially none (AK47) to 20% of cost (tanks, corvettes) to 80% of cost (high tech warships).

In that game I ended up maintaining a veteran force of high tech units for PVP, a training cadre of high tech units to level up and provide replacements for PVP casualties, and a 2nd line fleet of lower tech units for lower-tier campaign and gold farming. Which to me, kind of proves the need for Ursuses and provides a sort of in-universe, thus far hidden cost to explain why medium Mechs and lower-tech units are used versus the why-aren't-all-Mechs-XLFE-Assaults argument.

And which by accident also mirrors how real-life militaries work.