What if?: what if Outbound Light showed up in a diffrent Clan system in 3048?

[AJC46]

we all know the story of Outbound Light which turned up in the Smoke jag system of huntress which led to the crusaders getting the pull they need to start the clan invasion but what if instead of that happening the Outbound Light jumped into a different clan system ?


like what if they showed up instead at warden clan system like wolf or coyote?

or showed up in a jade falcon system?

[Foxx Ital]

I'm gonna go with, When they come out of jump they realised (well not really) that they miscalculated and ended up in the center of Strana mechty, causing the planet to explode with most of the clan leadership.

[rebs]

The Falcons would have done the same thing the Jags did, more or less.  Elias Crichell was no slouch when it came to matters like this.  I bet he was quite jealous that Leo Showers happened to be the one who caught the lucky break.

[St.George]

What if?The results would have been the same.  ;D

[ABADDON]

edit: Ah, nvm. Answer didn't make sense. :D

[St.George]

only differance I'd find is the pace at which they'd invade,meaning which clan "found" the ship and how they dealt with siad information.Crusaders fast,wardens slow and methodical.Even then it'd depend on which clan had the info.I'd think if they had jumped into a "multi-clan system" they'd set off trials for siad ship,they wouldn't escape clan space alive.

[rebs]

only difference I'd find is the pace at which they'd invade,meaning which clan "found" the ship and how they dealt with siad information.Crusaders fast,wardens slow and methodical.Even then it'd depend on which clan had the info.I'd think if they had jumped into a "multi-clan system" they'd set off trials for siad ship,they wouldn't escape clan space alive.

No doubt!  What if it appeared over Strana Mechty? (very close to Huntress iirc)  Outbound Light might have been blasted out of the cosmos well before anyone could be taken prisoner.

[Iron Mongoose]

The Jags would have tried to put the same spin on it that they did in canon: the Inner Sphere is not only actively seeking them out, but they came very close to finding them and reporting home, thus the need to strike quickly.  Information about the Federated Commonwealth would also come out, no matter which Clan captured the ship, again adding leverage to the Crusaders' call.  True, in canon the Jags were able to make some edits of their own to the information to make it seem more damning (perhaps more Mongoose genes were used than innitaly belived, eh?) but the truth should be convincing enough, especaly since the truth as now known (the IS had been in a renisance since the mid 30s and had a meaningful amount of advanced tech in production by 3046 when Outbound Light departed) portrays a more advanced Inner Sphere than what we believed we saw in the late 1980s and early 90s (even to Comstar and top people in the FedCom, most of the technologies seen were poorly understood or not understood at all).

The Wolves (and just maybe the Coyotes) are the Clan that might change things.  The Wolves might hide the information, and just cover the whole thing up, though that would be quite tricky (all it takes is one Diamond Shark passing through the wrong system and seeing a forign jumpship) or else selectively edit the information to make the Inner Sphere took either very weak (not worth conquoring and not a real threat) or else very strong (impossible to take on at the time, though the true information in 3048 might have said that anyway and the Clans seem to have ignored it, so that wouldn't likely work). 

But, even if it was the Wolves (or Coyotes, or similar) I think the Jags and Falcons would still have gained a bit of extra leverage to push for the Invasion, and even if they didn't get the slam dunk win they did in canon, they still probably could have tipped the scales and managed to win the vote.  And (as a What if that I myself planed to propose) even if the Outbound light never came, the Jags would I think eventualy have brow beat the other Clans into an invasion sooner rather than later.

[rebs]

True, in canon the Jags were able to make some edits of their own to the information to make it seem more damning (perhaps more Mongoose genes were used more than innitaly belived, eh?)

Adding to the old maxim, you are what you eat.  The Jaguar slowly and subtly took on many of the characteristics of the vanquished. 

The fluff also indicates that the Wardens all knew that the invasion was a matter of when, and not if.  I also agree that the invasion goes on as we saw it, pretty much, though maybe it could have been delayed a little longer.

[Maingunnery]

But, even if it was the Wolves (or Coyotes, or similar) I think the Jags and Falcons would still have gained a bit of extra leverage to push for the Invasion, and even if they didn't get the slam dunk win they did in canon, they still probably could have tipped the scales and managed to win the vote.  And (as a What if that I myself planed to propose) even if the Outbound light never came, the Jags would I think eventualy have brow beat the other Clans into an invasion sooner rather than later.

Well the Clan Invasion was in some sense a stabilizing force, if the Clans invaded full force during or after another succession war......

[Savage Coyote]

The Wolves (and just maybe the Coyotes) are the Clan that might change things.  The Wolves might hide the information, and just cover the whole thing up, though that would be quite tricky (all it takes is one Diamond Shark passing through the wrong system and seeing a forign jumpship) or else selectively edit the information to make the Inner Sphere took either very weak (not worth conquoring and not a real threat) or else very strong (impossible to take on at the time, though the true information in 3048 might have said that anyway and the Clans seem to have ignored it, so that wouldn't likely work). 

The biggest problem that even the Wolves and to a lesser extent, the Coyotes had was the ability to keep it quiet.  The Crusader factions in both Clans would probably find a way to get it to like minded Clans in their desire to invade.  We know the Wolves were about half and half, though with mainly Warden leadership.

Of course the Ancestral Home could have to just blown the icky Dark Caste jumpship up and no-one would be the wiser  :D

[Iron Mongoose]

The biggest problem that even the Wolves and to a lesser extent, the Coyotes had was the ability to keep it quiet.  The Crusader factions in both Clans would probably find a way to get it to like minded Clans in their desire to invade.  We know the Wolves were about half and half, though with mainly Warden leadership.

Of course the Ancestral Home could have to just blown the icky Dark Caste jumpship up and no-one would be the wiser  :D

True.  Conal Ward getting the information wouldn't have been too much difrence than what Leo Showers infact did.

[St.George]

still,,,the wolves where the only clan "not" to vote "go" when the issue was brought up to the council.No suprise,seeing their Dragoon compromise was a utter failure in the other clans eyes.

[pensiveswetness]

Thats because nobody (at the time) knew the change in the dragoon's mission statement post 3019. Side question on that? when did that (Khan Ward's final Order Mod to the Dragoons in 3019) become public knowledge, in clan space? or was it ever?

[Savage Coyote]

That's because nobody (at the time) knew the change in the dragoon's mission statement post 3019. Side question on that? when did that (Khan Ward's final Order Mod to the Dragoons in 3019) become public knowledge, in clan space? or was it ever?

Probably when Natasha Kerensky and the archivist gave it up; I doubt something like that would say confined to the Wolf Clan halls, especially when they are on Strana Mechety.  By then, most folk were probably not surprised and blamed it on the decadence and paradise that was their idea of the Inner Sphere.

"Stupid freeborns being seduced by the bounty of the Inner Sphere.  If REAL Clan warriors had been sent, why we [insert Clan-style rant] "

[Wrangler]

Well, if Clan Goliath Scorpions got their hands on the Outbound Light, the crew may had differient fate.  You folks know how they love those collectable Star League action figures, including the living kind.  ComStar is a SL Department.....technically.

[rebs]

They could have started a totally sweet tech breeding program and then diluted tainted it with the crew's genes.   O0   That's not a mockery of the Clan Way...  ;)

[Thatguybil]

still,,,the wolves where the only clan "not" to vote "go" when the issue was brought up to the council.No suprise,seeing their Dragoon compromise was a utter failure in the other clans eyes.

Could have changed the council vote enough to make the refusal trial of the vote close enough for the wolfs to win.

As it was the vote was heavily favored to start the invasion, but the wolfs still came close in the refusal trail of the vote. Pick up a vote or two and you might be able to win the trail.

[E. Icaza]

As it was the vote was heavily favored to start the invasion, but the wolfs still came close in the refusal trail of the vote. Pick up a vote or two and you might be able to win the trail.

Which is why I always hated the Goliath Scorpion coin toss vote.  If I were a Wolf, I'd have been like, "Gee guys, maybe if you'd voted your conscience we'd have had a chance to prevent this thing from happening."

[Stormlion1]

Actually the Outbound Light wasn't the first Inner Sphere jumpship to find the Homeworlds. In the first book of the Jade Phoenix trilogy Aidan Pryde talks to a tech who was aboard a Inner Sphere jumpship captured by the clans. So its  something that happens on occasion. Its the info the Outbound Light carried that got the Clans riled up about the formation of the FedCom and the possibility the Star League might be reformed through conquest and/or marriage without the Clans being involved. That was the news that got the Jags and the Crusaders really riled up. Good money that most jumpships captured by the Clans aren't paragons of intel, human or otherwise, but a well mantained Comstar Jumpship was full of intel, particulary since a Comstar Jumpship probably was chock full of Star League era tech in comparison to the occasionally lost tramp freightor.

[wellspring]

To me, capturing the Outbound Light triggers the invasion, but isn't the cause of the invasion. If that hadn't happened at all, there would still have been an invasion, it just might have taken a little longer. So, to me, the details of which clan happened to have found it aren't terribly important. The Smoke Jaguars finding it was very fortuitous for them, but doesn't change the overall trajectory of history. Without it, perhaps Crichell would have been ilKhan? Either way, not much would have played differently.

Unless... (conspiracy theory here, shhhh!!!). What if the Outbound Light hadn't found the Kerensky cluster? What if a Smoke Jaguars had been exploring the deep periphery, and learned from one of the periphery realms about the Explorer Corps? They set up patrols and lay a trap for the Explorer Corps, then they found the Outbound Light, captured it, and a prize crew jumped it in to be "found" at Huntress?

Remember, the survey team was eventually returned to ComStar, heavily traumatized by years of chemical interrogation by the Jaguars. They didn't know enough to reveal the location of the homeworlds, and under interrogation probably wouldn't have known much about what was happening outside their cells. And the JumpShip crew was never seen again. Perhaps to hide the Exodus Road? Or... perhaps to hide the fact that the Jaguars had committed a "pious fraud" to goad the clans to action.

[martian]

...
Remember, the survey team was eventually returned to ComStar, heavily traumatized by years of chemical interrogation by the Jaguars. They didn't know enough to reveal the location of the homeworlds, and under interrogation probably wouldn't have known much about what was happening outside their cells. And the JumpShip crew was never seen again. Perhaps to hide the Exodus Road? Or... perhaps to hide the fact that the Jaguars had committed a "pious fraud" to goad the clans to action.

We don't what was the fate of ComStar personnel. Actually there are at least three different stories and we don't know which one is true.

[wellspring]

We don't what was the fate of ComStar personnel. Actually there are at least three different stories and we don't know which one is true.

Warriors of Kerensky explains that Focht had aired the previous stories for political reasons. He explains that the survey team was returned to ComStar, and that the crew never were and their fate is unknown.

It's Phalen Kell giving us the story, but he's telling it to the IS powers who should by all rights know better if he's lying. Certainly if the survey team wasn't returned -- or if the crew was -- then ComStar could call him out on it. It's hard to see how he could carry a lie like that off. So it seems plausible that this is the authoritative version. *

*If the crew wasn't returned to ComStar but Kell does know what happened to them, then we'd have no way of knowing it. And we do know that Kell lied about other parts of WoK.

[martian]

*If the crew wasn't returned to ComStar but Kell does know what happened to them, then we'd have no way of knowing it. And we do know that Kell lied about other parts of WoK.

You answered yourself. Neither Focht nor Kell is the ideal of truthfulness.

[wellspring]

You answered yourself. Neither Focht nor Kell is the ideal of truthfulness.

Yeah, but my point is that the part about the survey team being returned can be confirmed or falsified by ComStar. So can whether or not the ship's crew was returned. So unless we can think of a reason that both ComStar and the Wolves in Exile have a common interest in lying about this, Kell's account seems like the most definitive.

Either way, my theory really can only be falsified if the ship's crew is available for questioning. If they aren't (whether because Martian's right and they're being hidden to support Kell's false account, or because I'm right and Kell's telling the truth and they're genuinely missing), either way we have no way of disproving my allegation that the Smoke Jaguars grabbed an Explorer Corps vessel and staged the jump to Huntress to create a pretext for invasion.

I'm not married to the theory, and since everyone involved is dead by now it's not likely that we'll ever know the truth, but it's a fun thought. 

[pensiveswetness]

Warriors of Kerensky explains that Focht had aired the previous stories for political reasons. He explains that the survey team was returned to ComStar, and that the crew never were and their fate is unknown.

It's Phalen Kell giving us the story, but he's telling it to the IS powers who should by all rights know better if he's lying. Certainly if the survey team wasn't returned -- or if the crew was -- then ComStar could call him out on it. It's hard to see how he could carry a lie like that off. So it seems plausible that this is the authoritative version. *

*If the crew wasn't returned to ComStar but Kell does know what happened to them, then we'd have no way of knowing it. And we do know that Kell lied about other parts of WoK.

out of insane curiosity, what portions of WoK did Khan Kell fib about? (and your conjecture on why?)

[wellspring]

out of insane curiosity, what portions of WoK did Khan Kell fib about? (and your conjecture on why?)

Well, one thing we know comes from Wars of Reaving. Compare the data on the clan homeworlds to the data on the same worlds as listed in Warriors of Kerensky. An annotation from Semi Kalasa explains that Phalen Kell did this to protect the security of the homeworlds, since it was tactically useful information that had no direct bearing on Kell's goal of promoting understanding of the Clans by the leaders of the IS.

Kalasa isn't a reliable narrator, either. But it's unlikely she'd lie about the vital statistics of the worlds of the kerensky cluster to Council of Six khans who'd grown up there.

[Isanova]

More interestingly... what if Outbound Light had been captured by Dark Caste? Rumors and mayhaps bondsmen from said ship eventually finding their way in clan society. Make for an interesting story no?

[Archangel]

More interestingly... what if Outbound Light had been captured by Dark Caste? Rumors and mayhaps bondsmen from said ship eventually finding their way in clan society. Make for an interesting story no?

One, most likely, without an interesting conclusion with whatever Clan they joined deciding they are either crazy or members of the Dark Caste trying to avoid punishment.  It is unlikely that any member of the Clan's senior leadership ever hears about them and even less likely wastes their time to meet with them.

[Wrangler]

Alternatively, IF ComStar had meet Dark Caste instead, there possiblity that using their influence...could gotten allot of information on the Clans.  They could made in-roads ally, if ComStar was clever enough..they could have strengthen them enough to provide unifying means to fight the Clans from inside..

[Archangel]

Alternatively, IF ComStar had meet Dark Caste instead, there possiblity that using their influence...could gotten allot of information on the Clans.  They could made in-roads ally, if ComStar was clever enough..they could have strengthen them enough to provide unifying means to fight the Clans from inside..

Or might have simply killed the ComStar crew and kept their equipment.  A Dark Caster group that was cooperating with the Society might have handed the crew over to the Society.

[Isanova]

Alternatively, IF ComStar had meet Dark Caste instead, there possiblity that using their influence...could gotten allot of information on the Clans.  They could made in-roads ally, if ComStar was clever enough..they could have strengthen them enough to provide unifying means to fight the Clans from inside..

Why would Comstar want to fight the clans at this point? The best thing they could provide and Dark caste members is a route to the Inner Sphere so they could go become pirates proper, rather than live under the shadow of being hunted and executed by the ubermensch society.

Also not sure but, I doubt the society existed yet? Weren't they largely a sociological response to the shock of  the Great Refusal?

[wellspring]

Why would Comstar want to fight the clans at this point? The best thing they could provide and Dark caste members is a route to the Inner Sphere so they could go become pirates proper, rather than live under the shadow of being hunted and executed by the ubermensch society.

Also not sure but, I doubt the society existed yet? Weren't they largely a sociological response to the shock of  the Great Refusal?

ComStar doesn't really have a reason at this point, though of course that would change if they really understood the Clans (as they eventually did).

The Society has existed for more than a century, potentially going all the way back to the aftermath of Operation Klondike. Its genesis and core was always the geneticists-- also the most powerful and highest-status scientists. They largely agree with the Clan Way, except that they believe that their caste should be preeminent rather than the warriors. Keep in mind, many senior scientists are warrior test-downs-- so they have a chip on their shoulder to start with.

They'd been preparing a coup for decades, but were still nowhere near ready. The Bloody ilKhan's program of Reaving IS-tainted bloodlines was intended to break the power of the invading clans once and for all, but it terrified the geneticists who called most of the shots in the Society. They saw generations of eugenics going down the tubes and clan space going up in flames, so they decided to strike while they could.

[Cik]

ComStar doesn't really have a reason at this point, though of course that would change if they really understood the Clans (as they eventually did).

The Society has existed for more than a century, potentially going all the way back to the aftermath of Operation Klondike. Its genesis and core was always the geneticists-- also the most powerful and highest-status scientists. They largely agree with the Clan Way, except that they believe that their caste should be preeminent rather than the warriors. Keep in mind, many senior scientists are warrior test-downs-- so they have a chip on their shoulder to start with.

They'd been preparing a coup for decades, but were still nowhere near ready. The Bloody ilKhan's program of Reaving IS-tainted bloodlines was intended to break the power of the invading clans once and for all, but it terrified the geneticists who called most of the shots in the Society. They saw generations of eugenics going down the tubes and clan space going up in flames, so they decided to strike while they could.

"OH SHIT, THEY ARE DELETING ALL OF OUR WORK" "WE BETTER IMMEDIATELY START TOSSING NUKES AND USING INSANELY LETHAL DISEASES WITH GENETIC VECTORS"

that never made sense to me, even though i like the wars of reaving. what exactly did they hope to salvage? holy ******, even if they did win they would be lucky to have anything but ashes left after the victory flag was raised.

[wellspring]

that never made sense to me, even though i like the wars of reaving. what exactly did they hope to salvage? holy ******, even if they did win they would be lucky to have anything but ashes left after the victory flag was raised.

I think the idea is that the geneticists weren't being entirely rational. Brett Andrews's idea was to basically retcon away everything any of them had ever done in genetics. And also, potentially, in upending the entire genetics program, subject the whole thing to a level of scrutiny that might have revealed their hidden genetic back doors.

The geneticists by far had the most power in the Society. Had other disciplines held the preponderance of power, they might have ignored-- or even taken advantage of-- the WoR. Instead, they jumped in headlong, hoping that surprise and boldness might make up for their major disadvantages.