Author Topic: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?  (Read 2632 times)

Hammerhead

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Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« on: 05 June 2023, 07:25:52 »
So, I remember that there was a line in the Canopus section of the O.G. Periphery book that listed a privilege if the Canopian nobility being “the right of the female to select her own mate(who cannot refuse her, under Canopian law)”.

I seem to recall mention of the same in the Major Periphery States book, but I may be misremembering.  In any case, how would this play out, exactly? Was any more info ever available? Mostly thinking about the chosen mate refusing anyway.

Does the law only apply to Canopian citizens, or do people on vacation need to be a bit more guarded around the nobility lest they wind up in an enforced marriage because someone took a fancy to them?

Has this been retconned?

What’s the scoop here?

AlphaMirage

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #1 on: 05 June 2023, 07:36:44 »
I don't think it was ever expounded upon, could be an interesting Shrapnel story idea. My guess is that only applies to Canopian citizens and is like prima nocta a thing that the nobility could theoretically do but likely don't.

Baldur Mekorig

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #2 on: 06 June 2023, 09:42:44 »
Quote
Among the many privileges of Canopian nobles are the right to hire a proxy to fulfill their military service obligations; the right of noblewomen to choose their own mates, who cannot refuse under Canopian law;...

HB:MPS - page 79-80

The quote in The Periphery 1st Ed is basically the same.

Is in interesting to see in a faction so much publicized as a bastion of freedoms to have such type of blatant disregard for individual rights. But as far as i know, it has not been developed more, or retconned, like the slavery issue.
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MrEmeralds

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #3 on: 22 June 2023, 02:49:46 »
It does make me wonder if the Crimson Council can just revoke the privilege.  Like, any attempt by a noble to enforce themselves on an unwilling mate would risk losing their title.

That, or a simple retcon out.

idea weenie

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #4 on: 22 June 2023, 20:14:19 »
Social stigma?  If a noble has to use the 'cannot refuse' method, that implies they are not good enough to attract a spouse normally.  That will lead to lots of mutterings behind closed doors.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #5 on: 23 June 2023, 15:44:33 »
I don't think it was ever expounded upon, could be an interesting Shrapnel story idea. My guess is that only applies to Canopian citizens and is like prima nocta a thing that the nobility could theoretically do but likely don't.
Prima Nocta/Droit du seigneur never existed, it was the invention of the Victorians who wanted to depict medieval times as more depraved than it was, in order to make themselves look better.

Red Pins

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #6 on: 24 June 2023, 00:41:42 »
You know, I'm starting to think,about this more seriously.  Minimum of three months before I can do more than just jot notes down, though.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #7 on: 28 June 2023, 06:05:25 »
I wanted to ask this question too but more with a regard to the mate (it says mate not male which could also mean a female partner which is not that unheard of in Battletech)
Though I was wondering if that would also apply to foreigners. So for example a noble woman spots a visiting man from say the Lyran Commonwealth and wants him. Would he be able to refuse (I'd say yes as he is not bound by Canopian laws but heck if I know). Might be something for some badly written fanfiction (50 shades of Canopus  ;D )

jimdigris

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #8 on: 28 June 2023, 16:36:09 »
Only two or three lines have been written on this subject.  None of this was ever addressed.  I suspect that foreigners are exempt from the rules, however.

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #9 on: 29 June 2023, 09:15:54 »
HB:MPS - page 79-80

The quote in The Periphery 1st Ed is basically the same.

Is in interesting to see in a faction so much publicized as a bastion of freedoms to have such type of blatant disregard for individual rights. But as far as i know, it has not been developed more, or retconned, like the slavery issue.
Hmmm... I don't recall it being ever touted as a bastion of 'social' freedoms. More a bastion of sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. Also of the Matriarchy.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #10 on: 29 June 2023, 11:37:54 »
Hmmm... I don't recall it being ever touted as a bastion of 'social' freedoms. More a bastion of sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. Also of the Matriarchy.
Isn't that why we travel to the MoC.  :thumbsup:   or one of their mobile circuses
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tassa_kay

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #11 on: 29 June 2023, 11:52:32 »
Hmmm... I don't recall it being ever touted as a bastion of 'social' freedoms.

Quote from: Handbook Major Periphery States, Pg. 80
Since our nation's founding, our Constitution has granted citizenship to anyone who comes to the Magistracy seeking political, religious or social freedom.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #12 on: 29 June 2023, 14:02:30 »
the ideals espoused in the founding documents do not always match up to the principles actually put into practice. just look at America from 1776 to 1868, with "all men are created equal" vs the reality of slavery.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #13 on: 29 June 2023, 16:45:38 »
If you look at it that way the Magistracy is more like one of the Great Houses then they realize. The only difference was that they didn't care for the big political game in the IS. Yes they preach about "we are more free then those in the center" but then have discrimination against males (while stated that those are officially gone they still exist) and also "Serve the nation" type of ideals that are more home in the Capellan Confederation then the supposed free Periphery states.

Anyway when it comes to the noble women's right to choose a mate regardless of their wishes here is an interesting one: Magestrix Emma had a mercenary as husband or perhaps just long time companion. Of course if she basically demanded he be her mate or not is another story

tassa_kay

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #14 on: 29 June 2023, 17:59:17 »
the ideals espoused in the founding documents do not always match up to the principles actually put into practice. just look at America from 1776 to 1868, with "all men are created equal" vs the reality of slavery.

Besides the point. The poster said he couldn't recall the MoC being touted as a bastion of social freedom, and I was providing a direct source for him.
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Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #15 on: 09 July 2023, 09:42:33 »

While technically correct, Canopians are not exceptionally 'free' compared to citizens in other periphery states like the Outworlds Alliance or Taurian Concordat. And the entrenched matriarchalism is a really big fat wrench to any claims of such.

tassa_kay

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #16 on: 09 July 2023, 09:50:01 »
While technically correct, Canopians are not exceptionally 'free' compared to citizens in other periphery states like the Outworlds Alliance or Taurian Concordat. And the entrenched matriarchalism is a really big fat wrench to any claims of such.

Again, besides the point.
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Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #17 on: 09 July 2023, 09:58:43 »
Again, besides the point.
Not really. The source you provided is in the MoC constitution. That is how the Canopians think of themselves.
My point was more on how it is perceived from outside the Magistracy. And a comparison of the social freedoms they offer vis a vis what other Periphery states can offer.

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #18 on: 09 July 2023, 12:12:28 »
My point was more on how it is perceived from outside the Magistracy.

Okay, this is worded better and makes more sense, so let's look at the 1st edition Periphery book. Given that it's a ComStar document in-universe, it's at least a start when it comes to how the Magistracy is perceived by others.

"Despite this political domination [of the Centrella family], the Magistracy has retained a surprising number of individual freedoms; its judicial and legislative bodies support human rights to a degree often lacking with the governments of the Inner Sphere."

"At present, each Magistracy citizen is guaranteed the right to elect legally protected representatives. Other rights, including trial by jury and freedom of speech, are protected as much by tradition as by Star League precedents."

Plus there's the fact that their Constitution enshrines the fact that if an individual can prove that they are the victim of political, religious or social oppression, they and their descendants are granted unconditional citizenship, and Canopian citizens are free to pursue whatever social status they desire. And I might even venture as to say that the Canopians making voting mandatory AND prohibiting political parties and special interest groups contributes to their social freedoms as well.

Looking at the other major Periphery realms, it seems like their own social freedoms run more or less along the same lines. I wouldn't say the Canopians even necessarily stand out from the Taurians or the Outworlders in this regard, as they all grant pretty much all of the same rights and freedoms. There are definitely ways in which the Taurians and Outworlders do a better job (the Taurians' education system, for example, which I daresay is absolutely an important component in social freedom).

But the Canopians definitely have a history of being a bastion of social (not to mention religious and artistic) freedoms, entrenched matriarchy notwithstanding.

« Last Edit: 09 July 2023, 12:56:39 by tassa_kay »
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SANSd20

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #19 on: 09 July 2023, 13:20:28 »
HB:MPS - page 79-80

The quote in The Periphery 1st Ed is basically the same.

Is in interesting to see in a faction so much publicized as a bastion of freedoms to have such type of blatant disregard for individual rights. But as far as i know, it has not been developed more, or retconned, like the slavery issue.

Do we know just how many nobles there are? And what does it mean to be a "noble" in MoC?
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #20 on: 17 July 2023, 06:41:31 »
Do we know just how many nobles there are? And what does it mean to be a "noble" in MoC?

First of all the nobility rank in the Magistracy is noit hereditary. You have to "earn" the rank by doing a "special service" to the state. The same goes for retaining the rank which can be covered by founding a hospital or library in a poor region. One example is the Merlune family who got enobled for the invention of a particular spicy sauce which became a hot selling export item enriching the Magistracy. Also the Magistracy has 3 distinct "classes" of nobles: The Froness, the Durachi and the Girin. The Froness are descended from the original settles of the Magistracy while the Durachi are the corporate titans (like my example of the Merlune family) The Girin are commoners who are allevated to noble by doing something that demands special recognition. Foer example a military officer whose deed is so great he gets enobled for it. According to the FM Periphery the noble class is small in comparism to the remaining Canopian population but it gets new blood now and then by "upstart commoners" And the patent of nobility opens the doors for more career options like doing outside trade, holding high positions in the goverment or military or even hire a proxy to sidestep their own military service

Porshadoxus

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #21 on: 14 April 2024, 15:17:55 »
I know I'm late to this party, but I didn't see anyone mention the other side of the male coin. How many single guys are really going to refuse such a claim?

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BrianDavion

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #22 on: 15 April 2024, 04:23:52 »
I know I'm late to this party, but I didn't see anyone mention the other side of the male coin. How many single guys are really going to refuse such a claim?

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Moonsword

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Re: Canopian “Cannot Refuse”?
« Reply #23 on: 15 April 2024, 13:48:18 »
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