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Off Topic and Technical Support => Off Topic => Topic started by: ANS Kamas P81 on 23 April 2022, 02:48:44
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And we're live!
Huh, looks like Lower Decks got a fourth season greenlit.
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Yay!
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I feel like that was announced when they gave us the release dates for the live-action shows this year, but even so, hell yeah.
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Warp Speed, NOW!
I can't wait to see what Strange New Worlds will be like. The trailer was strange to me (no pun intended.)
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can't argue the rightness of the title choice either-my suggestion was okay-ish, but 'Strange new posts" does fit, OH so much better.
What I'm hoping for: Actual Trekkish Strangeness. I wanna see some aliens that are outright alien and situations that are outright strange. Pike's rep in Kirk's era, was as an explorer who handled some downright weird stuff.
so...let's bring on the weird stuff!!
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I just want to see how they will find problem and solve problem in a hour. New Trek cant seem to do that really well in a whole season .
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I just want to see how they will find problem and solve problem in a hour. New Trek cant seem to do that really well in a whole season .
smaller, less galaxy-shattering problems.
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I just want to see how they will find problem and solve problem in a hour. New Trek cant seem to do that really well in a whole season .
I think DISCO has gotten into a good vibe of doing good hours of story, especially in series 4 (the problem is more around slowing the plot down when they shoot ahead and then need to fill like three episodes until the finale, IMO). I'm not that worried on that front.
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smaller, less galaxy-shattering problems.
Soooo much this. Doesn't all need to be wrapped up nicely at the end either, like "A Private Little War" from the original series - not ideal an ideal outcome, but a workable one given the circumstances.
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I can't wait to see how it develops.
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I think DISCO has gotten into a good vibe of doing good hours of story, especially in series 4 (the problem is more around slowing the plot down when they shoot ahead and then need to fill like three episodes until the finale, IMO). I'm not that worried on that front.
I will admit Season/Series 4 was better at that, but there were some episodes that went just about nowhere to solving the end of the story. Thank god they had only 13 episodes, not 20 or 26 like the other series. Picard has 10 episodes and a couple episodes were so slow.
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Soooo much this. Doesn't all need to be wrapped up nicely at the end either, like "A Private Little War" from the original series - not ideal an ideal outcome, but a workable one given the circumstances.
I think as an audience we've become conditioned to thinking in certain terms, including expecting perfect outcomes.
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I will admit Season/Series 4 was better at that, but there were some episodes that went just about nowhere to solving the end of the story. Thank god they had only 13 episodes, not 20 or 26 like the other series. Picard has 10 episodes and a couple episodes were so slow.
For Picard S2, there is always the possibility that the current arc will NOT be resolved by episode 10 and will continue into S3. Which means there's a good chance that they find themselves back in the alternate Confederation future and the appearances by the rest of the TNG cast will be as evil versions of those characters--it'll be a reunion of the Worldrazer crew.
cheers,
Gabe
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Warp Speed, NOW!
I can't wait to see what Strange New Worlds will be like. The trailer was strange to me (no pun intended.)
I'm not getting my hopes up just yet. Remember, it's the same brain trust calling the shots. Then again, maybe this is the series they've really wanted to do from the get-go.
Since they're already filming S2 and have introduced Kirk as a character, I'll admit I would like to see a Mirror Universe episode, but self-contained, with no crossover from the Prime universe. What I want to see from it is Evil Kirk assassinating Evil Pike and seizing command of the ISS Enterprise. (That, and I'm pretty sure the actors love doing them just to ham it up and completely subvert their white-hat characters.)
cheers,
Gabe
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For Picard S2, there is always the possibility that the current arc will NOT be resolved by episode 10 and will continue into S3. Which means there's a good chance that they find themselves back in the alternate Confederation future and the appearances by the rest of the TNG cast will be as evil versions of those characters--it'll be a reunion of the Worldrazer crew.
cheers,
Gabe
They are already doing Mirror Universe TNG in comics form right now. Not quite the same thing though.
Ruger
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I will admit Season/Series 4 was better at that, but there were some episodes that went just about nowhere to solving the end of the story. Thank god they had only 13 episodes, not 20 or 26 like the other series. Picard has 10 episodes and a couple episodes were so slow.
I think we're broadly agreed here. Like in the back half of series 4 I enjoyed the individual episodes while being increasingly frustrated at how s-l-o-w-l-y they moved to reach the 10-Cs
Picard has big pacing issues as well but they're different this year. In order to have events happen at the right point in a 10-episode story, other arcs have to be slowed down, so in any given episode you'll have one storyline shoot forward while someone else gets waylaid in a sideplot that ultimately adds little to the overall story arc. I'm still enjoying both shows overall but they could be so much better
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There was something better about the Humans in the Confederation. They had to be smarter, stronger or something to take over all the species and powers in the Galaxy including the Borg. With the Shield over Earth there had to be some weakness and seeing that with Kore and Soong that one episode. That is something in the story that has yet to be explored along with a couple of other missed stories. Just a one off comment would be a little nice...they seem to do it about a couple of things in a episode.
Along the same lines....with 7 not having the Borg implants that would mean she is form that Confed universe.....why can she have no problem in the sun in 2024??
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The Confederation isn't the Mirror Universe, so they probably don't have the same sensitivity to light.
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Yeah, I assume the shield over Earth is both defensive and, potentially, environmental in the Confederation timeline.
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The Confederation isn't the Mirror Universe, so they probably don't have the same sensitivity to light.
And that was an utterly unnecessary retcon made by the DISCO writers.
cheers,
Gabe
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I think people are trying to suggest Confederation humans are like Korhe. That UV light is actually outright lethal, not just a moderate annoyance.
Which is a stretch to say the least.
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For Picard S2, there is always the possibility that the current arc will NOT be resolved by episode 10 and will continue into S3. Which means there's a good chance that they find themselves back in the alternate Confederation future and the appearances by the rest of the TNG cast will be as evil versions of those characters--it'll be a reunion of the Worldrazer crew.
cheers,
Gabe
nah they're quirte on track to resolve things.
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nah they're quirte on track to resolve things.
And it'll be extremely rushed and unearned.
Cheers,
Gabe
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And it'll be extremely rushed and unearned.
Cheers,
Gabe
... are you watching the same series I am?
the problem was that Picards ancestor didn't get on the trip. JLP managed to nudge her, mostly back on course. and now the real trick is 1: preventing Q or Soong from screwing it up again. 2: stop the borg queen from further altering the past. 3: get home
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And it'll be extremely rushed and unearned.
Cheers,
Gabe
That seems to be new Trek with the quick answers to season long problems. With season 3 going to take place still taking place in 2024 its not going to be resolved until season 3. Its the attempt of the cliffhanger of "Mr. Worf.....FIRE!"
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With season 3 going to take place still taking place in 2024 its not going to be resolved until season 3.
Has that been announced anywhere? All I've seen is the "cast reunited" thing.
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All we know is that production of series 2 and 3 have been back to back. If were a betting man and working under the assumption that this hasn't been done to accommodate Patrick Stewart's schedule or some other real-life logistical concern, I'd say the crew will be back in the 25th century by the end of series 2 and possibly continuing to fight the new Borg Queen in series 3 or something like that.
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All we know is that production of series 2 and 3 have been back to back. If were a betting man and working under the assumption that this hasn't been done to accommodate Patrick Stewart's schedule or some other real-life logistical concern, I'd say the crew will be back in the 25th century by the end of series 2 and possibly continuing to fight the new Borg Queen in series 3 or something like that.
sounds like a reasonable speculation to me, they haven't changed writers or showrunners recently, have they? because that can derail things horribly with an extended plotline.
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Patrick Stewart is one of the showrunners on Picard. And he hasn't been changed :)
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Patrick Stewart is one of the showrunners on Picard. And he hasn't been changed :)
then it can only get better.
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The show budget is so much lower when you can just go down the street vs Vasquez Rocks or anywhere else.
It just should of been San Fran vs LA.
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then it can only get better.
Patrick Stewart is one of the *executive producers*, which is not quite the same thing as the *showrunner*, who's ultimately in charge of all creative decisions. And that person is Terry Matalas. If he's also helming S3, then we can reasonably expect the same issues to crop up.
cheers,
Gabe
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There was something better about the Humans in the Confederation. They had to be smarter, stronger or something to take over all the species and powers in the Galaxy including the Borg. With the Shield over Earth there had to be some weakness and seeing that with Kore and Soong that one episode. That is something in the story that has yet to be explored along with a couple of other missed stories. Just a one off comment would be a little nice...they seem to do it about a couple of things in a episode.
Along the same lines....with 7 not having the Borg implants that would mean she is form that Confed universe.....why can she have no problem in the sun in 2024??
Right. With Adam Soong's background and his experiments, you would expect him to be a big player in the Eugenics Wars (or have they forgotten about that?) We haven't seen anything so far that suggests he's a xenophobic crypto-fascist. Then again, this deal that he seems to be cutting with proto-Queen Agnes might offer an answer to the issue you raise there--Confederation humans were more prepared to deal with the Borg because there was somebody who already had an idea what their capabilities were, and they had more time to develop effective counters to Borg tech, knowing that the Borg were out there waiting as opposed to being thrust in unprepared like in "Q Who?"
cheers,
Gabe
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Right. With Adam Soong's background and his experiments, you would expect him to be a big player in the Eugenics Wars (or have they forgotten about that?)
Nothing explicit, but the Shenzhen Accords which regulate genetic research that he was in violation of are fictional, so they could well be a reaction to the Eugenics Wars
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I get the sense that as far as Picard season 2 is concerned the Eugenics Wars have yet to happen by 2024.
The writers have decided to give themselves an 'out' as far back as Space Seed where they explicitly state that records from that period of Earth's history are wildly inaccurate/incomplete.
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I assume they won't address them directly, but given Kirsten Beyer is the show's co-creator and an EP and writer, and she came to Trek from the novels they could be going for the whole "it was a shadow war that came to light later" thing that the books did, even if they don't explicitly state it to give future writers room to do whatever with it.
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Maybe.
But given the other bits we know via TOS, ENT, and First Contact it seems likely they have yet to happen as of 2024.
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I have to wonder if the devastation of WWIII actually gives the writers a bit of an out in terms of soft retcons regarding Trek lore about the late 20th/early 21st century.
All they have to say is that vast amounts of records were destroyed in that war, to the point that modern historians aren't actually 100% sure when the Eugenics Wars took place. History is a pretty fluid thing in the real world, with preconceptions and ideas changing and being thrown out as records and artifacts get unearthed, they could always say that comments from TOS and early TNG were accurate according to what historians of that time believed.
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I have to wonder if the devastation of WWIII actually gives the writers a bit of an out in terms of soft retcons regarding Trek lore about the late 20th/early 21st century.
All they have to say is that vast amounts of records were destroyed in that war, to the point that modern historians aren't actually 100% sure when the Eugenics Wars took place. History is a pretty fluid thing in the real world, with preconceptions and ideas changing and being thrown out as records and artifacts get unearthed, they could always say that comments from TOS and early TNG were accurate according to what historians of that time believed.
If the Eugenics Wars happened I bet they will be combined with WW3. In TOS WW3 had 37 million dead, in First Contact said 600 million dead. I thought somewhere that Enterprise combined the 2 wars for script sake. I know there was lore fiction (i know not cannon) for the combine the two. I also wonder how different sides and factions have different names for battles and war, I wonder if Eugenics and WW3 are the same and writing down history.
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That would make sense, either having Eugenics Wars be another name for World War III, or maybe even a single theater within the larger war, much like how many sources refer to the Japanese front of WWII as the Pacific War.
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That would make sense, either having Eugenics Wars be another name for World War III, or maybe even a single theater within the larger war, much like how many sources refer to the Japanese front of WWII as the Pacific War.
They could also be the flashpoint that starts it, or combine with Optimum at the end of it, or we could be seeing the provoking incident of both Optimum, and the Eugenics war with what's going on with the Borg Queen and Soong's ancestor.
There's also elements of "No Fate but what you make" going on. In TOS, the third world war happened in the 1990s, in TNG, it was the mid-21st century. There's temporal shenanigans that altered that timeline from Gary Seven to Kirk kidnapping a couple whales, to Picard's FIRST trip to the distant past (meeting Cochrane) not to mention Janeway's temporal interactions, Sisko replacing Gabriel Bell, and the Temporal Cold War's multiple visits by both sides in the Enterprise run, and now we've got Picard BACK in the past.
What if the reason Q is an antagonist this time, is because all of those have had a cumulative impact of both delaying the Eugenics wars, and altering the logical outcomes (and delaying humanity's warp drive)?
Drop a rock in a river, the river diverts around the rock. Drop enough rocks in a river, and you've got a dam and the river changes course. There's been a LOT of rocks dropped in the river.
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True, the timestream has gotten a little constipated over the years.
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True, the timestream has gotten a little constipated over the years.
consider that the explanation I just gave covers a MULTITUDE of things fanboys bitch about, and it's consistent internally to the canon if you consider a universe wherein time-travel exists and is possible, and where changes actually matter.
(also explains the 'temporal cold war' as being various 'endstate outcomes' duking it out to guarantee THEIR timeline is the one-true-timeline).
I also kind of suspect that there's going to be a Discovery/Picard/Strange New Worlds crossover or two hinging around time-travel if the writers go with it to the degree they can. (with the objective of 'straightening out' Trek continuity in favor of the CBS take without simply ignoring what many fans cherish.)
These are just random thoughts, because we don't have the new show to talk about just yet...(it's not on my screen yet!!)
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True, the timestream has gotten a little constipated over the years.
Its Star Treks way of saying there is a Multiverse!!! Every sci-fi does it now...the one we are in now is the Kurtzman Universe....almost as bad as the Mirror Universe.
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They could also be the flashpoint that starts it, or combine with Optimum at the end of it, or we could be seeing the provoking incident of both Optimum, and the Eugenics war with what's going on with the Borg Queen and Soong's ancestor.
Um, what's _Optimum_? Is it one of the novels?
cheers,
Gabe
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I also kind of suspect that there's going to be a Discovery/Picard/Strange New Worlds crossover or two hinging around time-travel if the writers go with it to the degree they can. (with the objective of 'straightening out' Trek continuity in favor of the CBS take without simply ignoring what many fans cherish.)
I worry about this, that they're going to try something like what Manny Coto did with season 4 of ST:ENT and make Asimovian attempts at creating a shared/synthesized universe out of the various time periods and major plot arcs of both classic and nuTrek.
EDIT: After I wrote that, I realized they're probably already doing it. Why else give Security Chief La'an a family name like Noonien-Singh unless they mean to establish a connection to Khan?
cheers,
Gabe
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Its Star Treks way of saying there is a Multiverse!!! Every sci-fi does it now...the one we are in now is the Kurtzman Universe....almost as bad as the Mirror Universe.
DISCO S3 pretty much already admitted it--remember when discussing Evil Georgiou's deteriorating condition, Kovich mentioned they were aware of the Kelvinverse, and even pinpointed the divergence point.
EDIT: Oh yeah, who can forget the TNG episode "Parallels"? Multiverse in Trek...not new...
cheers,
Gabe
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DISCO S3 pretty much already admitted it--remember when discussing Evil Georgiou's deteriorating condition, Kovich mentioned they were aware of the Kelvinverse, and even pinpointed the divergence point.
EDIT: Oh yeah, who can forget the TNG episode "Parallels"? Multiverse in Trek...not new...
cheers,
Gabe
Something else in Disco that talked about the Q said they haven't had any contact with the Q since the 25th Century. I think that is some on what might happen here at the end of Picard.
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Did they say 25th century? Huh.
Really enjoyed this week's Picard, excited for the last episode.
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Um, what's _Optimum_? Is it one of the novels?
cheers,
Gabe
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Phillip_Green (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Phillip_Green)
The movement he led.
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Did they say 25th century? Huh.
Really enjoyed this week's Picard, excited for the last episode.
THere was a line in Season 4 about who was powerful enough to make the 10-C bubble that was wiping out planets. They brought up the Q, Its a throw away line if when you watched it, got me thinking now with Picard.
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So, reading you diagonally. Is Piccard worth picking up? I am faaaaar from a hardcore trekkie, more a casual watcher. So I enjoyed most of Disco as a painting miniatures background experience. Can Piccard fit the same niche or is it not worth it?
Any other worthwhile Trek shows I an raid for solo watching? the old shows (original, TNG and DS9) are already seen or I do not like them, so more modern stuff preferred.
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If you like NuTek them Picard should be worth while to you.
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THere was a line in Season 4 about who was powerful enough to make the 10-C bubble that was wiping out planets. They brought up the Q, Its a throw away line if when you watched it, got me thinking now with Picard.
I remember the line, I just didn't remember what timeframe they gave.
If you like NuTek them Picard should be worth while to you.
Agreed. Picard is very much in the same sort of narrative space as DISCO, similar look and feel.
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re:Picard:
Season 1 has a lot of 'what?' and 'so you're not actually going anywhere with this after all...' to it.
Season 2 is a bit better but still glosses over a lot of stuff like it never happened from Season 1.
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Strange New Worlds title sequence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndtCicnVvbc
That is, as they say, the good shit.
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So, reading you diagonally. Is Piccard worth picking up? I am faaaaar from a hardcore trekkie, more a casual watcher. So I enjoyed most of Disco as a painting miniatures background experience. Can Piccard fit the same niche or is it not worth it?
Any other worthwhile Trek shows I an raid for solo watching? the old shows (original, TNG and DS9) are already seen or I do not like them, so more modern stuff preferred.
If the term "Romulan warrior nun" makes your ears perk up, you'll probably like the first series. Lots of running from one fire into another frying pan. The last episode does away with Data in a much better fashion than the Nemesis big screen movie.
If you liked the "wander through the past-present" part of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (I'm still waiting for some version of 'nuclear wwwessels' in Picard), you'll probably like series two. It also gets a little heavy into the messaging aspect, which I'll leave there.
I'll note that there's a lot of missing-middle between the end of conventional/legacy Trek and the start of the first series that can get annoying; I found myself asking "Wait, what/when did that happen?" a bit, with some things apparently inheriting from the big screen reboot and/or a game (?).
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So SNW will be finally introducing the Enterprise’s previous captain, prior to Pike, Robert April to the live action screen. Previously, the closest he got was in a single episode of TAS.
Good to see this but if continuity brought back.
Ruger
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He's apparently in a couple of episodes, yeah. He also got a shout out in DISCO as one of Starfleet's greatest captains.
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Unfortunately it has kicked off a new round of idiocy, as the Robert April seen in TAS was white.. while the actor chosen for SNW is Adrian Holmes, who is black. Which has led to a lot of "racism disguised as concern for canon" by the usual idiots.
All the people involved with the previous appearances in TAS and the supplimentary books are on board with the casting though.. including the writer who created the character in the first place.
https://trekmovie.com/2022/05/02/star-trek-the-animated-series-writer-welcomes-new-robert-april-on-strange-new-worlds/
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Unfortunately it has kicked off a new round of idiocy, as the Robert April seen in TAS was white.. while the actor chosen for SNW is Adrian Holmes, who is black. Which has led to a lot of "racism disguised as concern for canon" by the usual idiots.
Changing charters for the "modern" times. Even if its in the future and shouldn't of changed. Could of made him some other awesome admiral and nobody would of cared like Cromwell from Disco Season 1 and 2, but new Star Trek cant seem to come up with their own ideas.
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Unfortunately it has kicked off a new round of idiocy, as the Robert April seen in TAS was white.. while the actor chosen for SNW is Adrian Holmes, who is black. Which has led to a lot of "racism disguised as concern for canon" by the usual idiots.
All the people involved with the previous appearances in TAS and the supplimentary books are on board with the casting though.. including the writer who created the character in the first place.
https://trekmovie.com/2022/05/02/star-trek-the-animated-series-writer-welcomes-new-robert-april-on-strange-new-worlds/
++MOD NOTICE++
Because of the obvious issues with forum rules, there will be no more posts discussing this particular issue. Feel free to go back to talking about anything else Trek.
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Airs on Thursday here. Looking forward to it. :thumbsup:
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Strange New Worlds title sequence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndtCicnVvbc
That is, as they say, the good shit.
Enh...not really sold on Mount's delivery of the captain's monologue. Too deadpan. I was hoping for something more laid-back, warmer, friendlier.
However, if you want to see the ship itself as the star, hard to beat this. Like a bigger, bolder, more nimble version of the Voyager intro.
Cheers,
Gabe
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++MOD NOTICE++
Because of the obvious issues with forum rules, there will be no more posts discussing this particular issue. Feel free to go back to talking about anything else Trek.
apologies for straying into dangerous waters wit that post, i should have thought it through a bit more.
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Enh...not really sold on Mount's delivery of the captain's monologue. Too deadpan. I was hoping for something more laid-back, warmer, friendlier.
However, if you want to see the ship itself as the star, hard to beat this. Like a bigger, bolder, more nimble version of the Voyager intro.
Cheers,
Gabe
Anson Mount was by far the best thing of Disco Season 2 buy a billion, I hope he gets a chance to shine in his own show, hope not for the bait and switch.
My problem with the Enterprise is just the look it looks flat, like the universe squashed it, the updated is fine it looks better than the JJprize the first time we saw that, and all the other versions also.
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Started season 2 of Picard tonight with the first episode, then watched the premier of Strange New Worlds. Thoroughly enjoyed both.
And while it’s not really spoilery:
OMG, USS Archer (NCC-627) is a single-nacelle ship, like a mini Hermes class!
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I'm back in the office full-time as of this week, and the worst thing so far is not being able to just watch streaming shows as they go live.
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Well... not as thrilled with the end of Picard S2 as I would have liked, but it was decent. Much better, I felt, than Discovery S4 (which I had to choke down, and which my wife finally got up mid-episode at one point halfway through the season, announced 'Nope, I'm out', and went to watch true crime shows in the bedroom).
A few thoughts, with spoilers since the finale just went up a few hours ago:
+I actually really liked Rios' decision at the end. He's right- this is where he belongs. Seeing him as a miserable loner in S1, fine, but seeing him as a Starfleet captain in the start of S2 was jarring- it didn't seem like he fit that role. I'll be sorry to see the end of the character, because he was one of my favorite parts of the show, but as endings go it was a rather good call. I love that he eventually died sucking on a cigar.
+Jurati... I'm iffy on this one, it seems like there are some holes in that whole circular path they gave her to becoming the Queen- Picard was part of the Collective at one point, after all, but never sensed her as part of the whole thing? The Borg found out about Earth via Q's machinations way back when, but wouldn't Agnes have... you know what, fine, whatever. I don't have to like it.
+The whole thing lead up to... a hole in space opening to reveal a horrifying threat to all life in the sector, which was quickly filled via a quick science-y bit in a couple of minutes. Didn't we do this already in this show? No metallic tentacles this time, but it felt like they treaded the same ground.
+Q... I didn't really get the plan with him 'dying', it still doesn't really make sense, but as a sendoff to the character it was pretty good, honestly. The reapport he and Picard had for so long was a lot of fun, and getting an opportunity to say goodbye was actually nice- that last moment of the two of them before the time jump really was emotional, and I get the feeling that it wasn't the two of them acting out their roles so much as genuine friendship between the actors. (Side note, if you ever get a chance to meet John de Lancie, he's one of the nicest and most quick-witted people I think I've ever had a chance to talk to.)
+WESLEY!!! Just... man, good to see him. My sole regret is that he didn't say 'hi' to JL as part of his cameo.
+OK, one more thing. Elnor. I liked his death. It added some honest-to-god gravity to the season, it made the motivations of characters that much stronger, it meant that the stakes were high as we actually lost a major member of the S1 cast early on. His reappearance as a hologram was a fun 'oh... OH!' moment, but I felt that they'd really done something surprising and clever with axing the character. Having him magically reappear as 'everything is fine over here on a different ship, promise!' kind of felt forced, and while I get that getting rid of THREE characters from S1 might have been a bit much (with Jurati and Rios being out), adding him back in here just didn't really feel like a good handling of the situation to me.
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I am with you two on Discovery Season 4.
The whole thing with Jurati, I think they're trying to set it up as some kind of a separate Borg Collective. Using a bee analogy, Jurati's a queen of one beehive and Locutus, Seven, and all the previous Borg we've seen are a different beehive. Same species, but different organization and a different objective. Jurati had told the other queen her plan was to go assimilate volunteers as opposed to mass assimilation. That might limit the spread and technological development of these kinder, gentler Borg. And considering they should have the memories of the bad Borg Queen, Jurati's Borg should have the ability to avoid the bad Borg until the what we see in Picard.
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Yeah, I agree with wantec on the two collectives idea. Overall I enjoyed the episode and the series overall, I think it was a better story overall than series 1, but no individual episode surpassed Nepenthe as a single story. Still has massive pacing issues - just different ones to series 1 and I doubt they'll be fixed next year.
Really they just need to space some things out better, maybe introduce the space hole at the start so Starfleet is dealing with two crises and only the viewer begins to realise they're related before Q changes history?, and at the same time compress others, so we're not getting constant distractions and sideplots that just feel like the show is marking time because it's a 10 episode order
Enjoyed SNW a lot. I've seen a lot of people who really love it and I'm not that hot on it. but it looks great, the cast are fun - both the returning triumverate and most of the new crew members get some moments to shine, and it's a self-contained story, which is refreshing after a lot of not always great serialised storytelling.
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And while it’s not really spoilery:
OMG, USS Archer (NCC-627) is a single-nacelle ship, like a mini Hermes class!
Screencap? Can link to preserve spoiler status.
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Screencap? Can link to preserve spoiler status.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Archer_(NCC-627)
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Screencap? Can link to preserve spoiler status.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Archer_(NCC-627) (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Archer_(NCC-627))
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what was that, 45-seconds apart?
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what was that, 45-seconds apart?
What's weirder is it didn't give me the alert you'd already posted when I started posting mine. That's bizarre.
OK, haven't seen Picard S2 Ep10 yet, but I saw a couple clips on YouTube, because I've never met a spoiler I didn't like, evidently:
I freely admit I was openly crying during the last scenes with Q...well, the two snippets I saw on YouTube that appear to be his last scenes.[/quote]
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Finally I enjoyed a Star Trek episode since the start of Disco thanks to SNW.
My only serious complain is too much Pike "flashforwards". A couple of things need to improve but overall I enjoyed it.
Lets see how it goes from here.
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The first episode of Strange New Worlds was good, much better for a start of a show but still a pilot and seemed a little more than a episode than normal. It was basically a the Star Trek version of The Day the Earth Stood Still just replace Klaatu with Pike. Some major plot oversites....A whole ship Archer they sent for first contact had only 3 crew members???
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https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Archer_(NCC-627) (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Archer_(NCC-627))
when i'd posted before they hadn't had a picture up yet.
not sure i like the hollow pylon there. it looks flimsy and makes the question of "where is the engine room and warp core" way too complex, because there is clearly no EPS pipeline out to the nacelle.. so if it is inthe saucer (where you would have the room for it and its M/AM fuel) it seems impossible you could get the power to the nacelle.. but if it is in the nacelle you run into the problem that there is no way to move the crew down to the nacelle. it also would put a major constraint on the size of the warp coil assembly(s) in the nacelle. and thus presumably things like top speed. other than that not a bad take on the Saladin/Hermes.
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I liked it as well. Doctor M'Benga was a nice touch.
A whole ship Archer they sent for first contact had only 3 crew members???
Found that questionable as well. Another lesser point was leaning a little too heavily on DISCO for previous knowledge of relationships and the flashback.
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Found that questionable as well. Another lesser point was leaning a little too heavily on DISCO for previous knowledge of relationships and the flashback.
Those are my "couple of things" that need to improve. And why they got a Samuel Kirk and a Khan descendent in there also bothers me but... lets see where they go with those.
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A whole ship Archer they sent for first contact had only 3 crew members???
guess it depends on how big the ship is. not having seen the episode, and going just by the picture, it is possible the ship was tiny like the novel continuity Archer class scouts (https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Archer_class) seen in the Vanguard and seekers series of novels. which was only 45m long. that saucer on the SNW ship could have only had a single deck, and been only a few dozen meters wide.
i don't know where the memory alpha claim it is a hermes class came from.. i've seen people online claiming it is one based on the registry number matching the old (non-canon) franz joeseph technical manual for the hermes class, but that book had the class as a larger ship at 242m with a crew of a hundred plus.
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Those are my "couple of things" that need to improve. And why they got a Samuel Kirk and a Khan descendent in there also bothers me but... lets see where they go with those.
Samuel Kirk is James T.'s brother. Showed up in an episode of TOS.
And... honestly I have my doubts is a Khan descendent tbh. I think it's them faking us out.
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It's not like Khan is exactly an unusual or unique name either. According to Wikipedia, some 45 million people worldwide (usually originating from South Asia) have Khan as a last name.
Khan was originally a title given to people that were warchiefs in South Asia.
They may have been putting in an easter-egg lampshade (like they did with Kirk), but at the same time, it really isn't remarkable that someone would have that last name (& neither is it for Khan to have that last name, for that matter, & ISTR every Sikh male would have a last name of Singh as well).
Damon.
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Wait - granted, I had a little trouble following the dialog in places but where is this "Khan descendent" coming in?
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Samuel Kirk is James T.'s brother. Showed up in an episode of TOS.
And... honestly I have my doubts is a Khan descendent tbh. I think it's them faking us out.
Christina Chong has confirmed that La'an is indeed a descendant of Khan:
https://trekmovie.com/2022/05/04/interview-christina-chong-on-how-laan-is-and-isnt-like-khan-in-star-trek-strange-new-worlds/ (https://trekmovie.com/2022/05/04/interview-christina-chong-on-how-laan-is-and-isnt-like-khan-in-star-trek-strange-new-worlds/)
So that's how they're doing it but not sure why it's necessary. Like I said previously, this feels like something Manny Coto would've done for season 4 of ST:ENT, trying to create a forced continuity among different eras of Trek.
Cheers,
Gabe
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Wait - granted, I had a little trouble following the dialog in places but where is this "Khan descendent" coming in?
The security chief in SNW is La'an Noonien Soong
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It's not like Khan is exactly an unusual or unique name either. According to Wikipedia, some 45 million people worldwide (usually originating from South Asia) have Khan as a last name.
Khan was originally a title given to people that were warchiefs in South Asia.
They may have been putting in an easter-egg lampshade (like they did with Kirk), but at the same time, it really isn't remarkable that someone would have that last name (& neither is it for Khan to have that last name, for that matter, & ISTR every Sikh male would have a last name of Singh as well).
Damon.
Not sure why you bother to write that essay about "Khan" when all I wrote was "she was a descendent of Khan" (La'an Noonien Soong).
About Kirk brother... unless theres a brilliant plot point later hence I wrote "lets see where they go with those" (both Samuel and La'an) I think they're unnecessary "cameos".
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I think the Samuel Kirk is just a little too much for the show. Starfleet and the Federation is huge, yet everyone knows each other and are really close with each other.
The La'an story might be pretty good, but we will see. Do I think it shouldn't be there yes...but this is a prequel show and I think lore and history of the show before is out the window. Like the Star Wars Expanded Universe.
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Well... not as thrilled with the end of Picard S2 as I would have liked, but it was decent. Much better, I felt, than Discovery S4 (which I had to choke down, and which my wife finally got up mid-episode at one point halfway through the season, announced 'Nope, I'm out', and went to watch true crime shows in the bedroom).
Well I guess there's just no accounting for taste. I was pretty much the exact opposite.
Picard S2 just so thoroughly lost the plot in episodes 4-7 that it burned up any goodwill from the first two episodes. Haven't gotten to episode 10 yet and it's no priority. I must be one of the very few who actually thinks S1 was better overall! While I agree that the burn (haha) to get to the reveal and first contact with the Ten-C was a little too slow, I still felt DISCO S4 had a better payoff than Picard S2.
Cheers,
Gabe
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Well I guess there's just no accounting for taste. I was pretty much the exact opposite.
Picard S2 just so thoroughly lost the plot in episodes 4-7 that it burned up any goodwill from the first two episodes. Haven't gotten to episode 10 yet and it's no priority. I must be one of the very few who actually thinks S1 was better overall! While I agree that the burn (haha) to get to the reveal and first contact with the Ten-C was a little too slow, I still felt DISCO S4 had a better payoff than Picard S2.
Cheers,
Gabe
The ONLY reason why I thought Season 2 was better than Season 1 was the First Episode of Season 2, it was Starfleet and the Federation that we all loved and grew up with, if they could of kept up with 25% of that it would of been a great season. But you take episodes 2-10 of season 2 and it would be the same as Season 1 of Picard IMHO. When they had to promote season 3 before Season 2 was done...you know something was off. With the RIOS not coming back....there is no charater I like in the show anymore....even Picard. Picard was by far my favorite character from TNG and later but he isn't acting like Picard to me.
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I watched episode 10 (season 2) last night and I will say that there is definitely parts of the whole show I didn't like and one of my grumbles is that if you think about it the right way, the whole second season of picard took place in about 1 week of time for the characters and several hundred years with the time jumps
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The ONLY reason why I thought Season 2 was better than Season 1 was the First Episode of Season 2, it was Starfleet and the Federation that we all loved and grew up with, if they could of kept up with 25% of that it would of been a great season. But you take episodes 2-10 of season 2 and it would be the same as Season 1 of Picard IMHO. When they had to promote season 3 before Season 2 was done...you know something was off. With the RIOS not coming back....there is no charater I like in the show anymore....even Picard. Picard was by far my favorite character from TNG and later but he isn't acting like Picard to me.
Admittedly, getting kicked in the head and face repeatedly by a very large and powerful horse is probably better than Season 1 of Picard, IMO its not a high bar to beat.
But I totally agree, we saw an optimisitic federation and the stuff again rather than Admiral Sweary and the federation being "We had slaves and we're not racist but....."
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Honestly S1 was fine IMO. Then again I am also type who thinks that hating of piece of fiction is silly as it doesn't effect anyone's lives so everyone is free to take that as they want.
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Honestly S1 was fine IMO. Then again I am also type who thinks that hating of piece of fiction is silly as it doesn't effect anyone's lives so everyone is free to take that as they want.
I'm the opposite. If you're gonna do something do it properly or don't do it at all. Even make believe stories (specially those that already have an history and a following).
Small mistakes I can accept... shit happens when a lot of people are involved but doing stuff just because one thinks its cool or only an handful will care is... nonsense... to say the least.
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Thing is more people like NuTrek that don't but they don't tend to talk about it as much as vocal minority that hates those. So people making NuTrek must do something right if more people like it than don't. As some one who was never hardcore fan of Trek back as kid and teen (when I liked it most) I don't mind NuTrek not being like those old shows including DS9 that already did things differently than any Trek show before it. Granted it does also come down to me preferring season long story arcs over episodic were reset button gets pushed after each episode and only some things might stick to be in later episodes.
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The first episode of Strange New Worlds was good, much better for a start of a show but still a pilot and seemed a little more than a episode than normal. It was basically a the Star Trek version of The Day the Earth Stood Still just replace Klaatu with Pike. Some major plot oversites....A whole ship Archer they sent for first contact had only 3 crew members???
One of the other screen caps shows the Archer’s mission was mainly surveillance to see if the locals were suitable to be contacted, or if General Order 1 still applied and they were not ready. That would make the smaller crew and a scout ship more understandable.
when i'd posted before they hadn't had a picture up yet.
not sure i like the hollow pylon there. it looks flimsy and makes the question of "where is the engine room and warp core" way too complex, because there is clearly no EPS pipeline out to the nacelle.. so if it is inthe saucer (where you would have the room for it and its M/AM fuel) it seems impossible you could get the power to the nacelle.. but if it is in the nacelle you run into the problem that there is no way to move the crew down to the nacelle. it also would put a major constraint on the size of the warp coil assembly(s) in the nacelle. and thus presumably things like top speed. other than that not a bad take on the Saladin/Hermes.
On the other hand, each of the two struts between saucer and nacelle are probably thicker than the ones on the Constitution class used between the secondary hull and the nacelles, so it seems somewhat feasible to me. I also suspect that the Archer carries its M/AM reactor in the nacelle itself, as a throwback to the Franz Joseph Technical Manual and early TOS descriptions, before revisions to canon gave the Constitution class a horizontal warp core similar to what you see in the NX-class ships.
guess it depends on how big the ship is. not having seen the episode, and going just by the picture, it is possible the ship was tiny like the novel continuity Archer class scouts (https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Archer_class) seen in the Vanguard and seekers series of novels. which was only 45m long. that saucer on the SNW ship could have only had a single deck, and been only a few dozen meters wide.
i don't know where the memory alpha claim it is a hermes class came from.. i've seen people online claiming it is one based on the registry number matching the old (non-canon) franz joeseph technical manual for the hermes class, but that book had the class as a larger ship at 242m with a crew of a hundred plus.
It’s two number past the NCC designations for the Hermes class in the old TM, which’s previously ended with NCC-625, the USS Phoenix, a Hermes class of the Cygnus subtype.
I suspect the Archer is basically a merger of the two: taking the role of a small scout ship that could be run with a handful of crew and the appearance of the Hermes/Saladin/Einstein class. I’m eager to find out more.
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To mention, there were scout ships (called that) referred to from Star Trek TMP on the Communication Station. USS Revere (NCC-595) which was suppose to meet with USS Columbia (NCC-621). The Revere and the Columbia were both also mentioned in the (now non-canon) Star Trek Technical Manual, as a Hermes-class Scout as well.
Personally, I think having a such small crew is invitation to disaster. You need operate in shifts (computer were as high up back then.) Sensor operators, nav staff. I think if its really true, it bad idea written by someone doesn't get that Trek did have some realistic things to it.
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With the RIOS not coming back....there is no charater I like in the show anymore....even Picard. Picard was by far my favorite character from TNG and later but he isn't acting like Picard to me.
That's because in your mind you keep seeing and wanting the Picard of old. What we've gotten in these series is Old Picard.
Also, I can't remember which site I read it on, but Patrick Stewart has gone on record saying he has consciously put more of himself into his characterization of Picard, whereas that actor/character line was much sharper when he started out on TNG. And time hasn't stood still for him any more than it has for his fictional alter ego.
cheers,
Gabe
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That's because in your mind you keep seeing and wanting the Picard of old. What we've gotten in these series is Old Picard.
Also, I can't remember which site I read it on, but Patrick Stewart has gone on record saying he has consciously put more of himself into his characterization of Picard, whereas that actor/character line was much sharper when he started out on TNG. And time hasn't stood still for him any more than it has for his fictional alter ego.
cheers,
Gabe
Yeah I see your point. I wasn't expecting a 70+ Patrick Stewart punching out Romulans and doing the physical work. What I hoped was the more optimistic, and the ability to negotiate out of a anything also. I did kinda like the broken old man Picard in the start of the first season, that's what happens when you get "fired" from your job when you didn't want to and kinda forced to retired.
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Trek has always been topical for its time, and our current times aren't ones where bright optimism and willingness to negotiate are particularly common. So they wrote a story about coming to terms with a changing world and rediscovering your ideals in dark times. With a side of "things can be better, if you work to make them so".
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Trek has always been topical for its time, and our current times aren't ones where bright optimism and willingness to negotiate are particularly common. So they wrote a story about coming to terms with a changing world and rediscovering your ideals in dark times. With a side of "things can be better, if you work to make them so".
I saw a comment a few years ago that I think rings true - TOS, TNG and VOY go to places where people have problems and say "this is how you fix your problem", while DS9, DISCO and Picard say "we have problems and they will be hard to fix". The former is more comfortable and it's easier to cast them as optimistic.
And this isn't a knock on anyone here who finds it hard to see the optimism in DISCO or Picard, we all react to art and media differently and we look for different things. The aesthetic of the modern shows is often grim and dark, and shows the protagonists fighting against that darkness for much of the run, often with the hopefulness only coming at the end of a story arc.
In Picard series 1, for example the optimism is that Picard was able to prevent the synths from summoning MechaCthulu by appealing to their better nature, that he was able to convince the Federation to come to their rescue and lift the ban. And while there were optimistic moments along the way, you did also have to see Picard as the broken man, put out to pasture, alienated and alone. You had to see him against overwhelming odds but without the confidence that he and the crew of the enterprise would come through. And that's not always what you want to see, especially if Picard's prior show was on the other side of the Trek scale.
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I've not followed the series, due to me not having Paramount Plus, I am curious how series will end. Will it lead to something else with younger characters in the mix?
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<snip>
A very nice summary I feel :)
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Finally got around to SNW episode 1, and while it was on the whole pretty good, it really strikes me that the writers room just can't help themselves when it comes to messing with canon just because they can. Case in point: Starfleet not only seems to have made first contact with the Gorn before 2260, but La'an survived an encounter with them years before that when they seem to have butchered her family and the rest of the travelers on their colony ship. This contradicts the "official" first contact in the TOS episode "Arena".
Now yes, humans encountered the Gorn earlier in two alternate realities: the Mirror Universe and the Kelvinverse. But this is supposed to be the Prime universe. So it's yet another example of canon being altered when there's really no need for it. Unless the writers intend this as a Chekhov's Gun (La'an is probably nursing a grudge against the Gorn) why bring it up?
Also, I was...not expecting this interpretation of T'Pring. I was under the impression that Vulcans had more, um, subtle ways of displaying affection and desire. Does she think she can get away with that because she knows Spock is half-human? (Is there any previous reference indicating that Vulcan females are usually the ones who initiate an engagement?)
Still, it was interesting to draw the contrast between the ways that Pike and Spock responded to being buzzed on their communicators.
Makes it easy to understand why T'Pring eventually ditched Spock. ;) Also interesting was her nonchalant familiarity with Pike, like she had already met him quite a number of times previously.
cheers,
Gabe
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Also wanted to bring this up (already dealt with in an article on Den of Geek but worth mentioning here):
Does the 20th/21st Century fictional Star Trek exist within the Trek universe itself?
In SNW ep. 1, Pike is shown watching _The Day The Earth Stood Still_ and quips "C'mon, it's a classic."
This movie was directed by Robert Wise, who IRL would later go on to direct ST:TMP.
So, if the earlier movie exists as part of the Trek universe's pre-spaceflight history, what about ST:TMP itself?
Also thought about Pike's speech to the Riley factions near the end (where he basically steps into the role of Klaatu) and his showing footage of Earth's WWIII, and how that connected to Picard S2. It's actually a pretty huge irony that in order to correct the timeline to get back the future they knew (the present for them, actually!) and avoid the rise of the xenophobic, imperialistic Confederation, Picard and Co. actually had to ensure that humanity's most destructive conflict would happen.
cheers,
Gabe
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except that starfleet didn't make contact with the gorn. they found La'an, who told them her story about how a colony ship got captured by the gorn, and the colonists used as food for gorn infants. with her as the last survivor given the 'reward' of being set adrift rather than killed and eaten. all starfleet has to go on is her story, so it is not the official first contact, that is still in TOS.
it just shows that that contact came after a period of information gathering from other cultures and individuals who had encountered them. much like how the federation had heard stories about the ferengi (and unknowingly encountered them) before officially meeting them in the 24th century.
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Ehhh... sort of. Doesn't the TOS episode have Kirk talking about "... the Metron called it a 'Gorn'...", in a way that really suggests he (and everyone else) doesn't know at all? Something like what happened with La'an would definitely warrant some kind of "Hey, be on the lookout for Gorn in this area of space until we confirm it, unless you maybe want to get eaten" type of general travel warning.
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This is why I dont bother with Trek anymore. They keep making prequels while claiming its part of the main timeline, but then it becomes messed up with so many changes.
I really dont get why producers just wont admit its a reboot. Why is it such a bad word? Are they afraid to lose the old fans? Well theyre doing that anyway with this silly retro stuff.
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This is why I dont bother with Trek anymore. They keep making prequels while claiming its part of the main timeline, but then it becomes messed up with so many changes.
I really dont get why producers just wont admit its a reboot. Why is it such a bad word? Are they afraid to lose the old fans? Well they're doing that anyway with this silly retro stuff.
I suspect it's marketing. They don't want people turning away from the brand because it's changed. So they don't say anything, just lure main stream /casual viewers to the show.
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I suspect it's marketing. They don't want people turning away from the brand because it's changed. So they don't say anything, just lure main stream /casual viewers to the show.
I think it's less to do with consumers, and more to do with getting establishment financiers to cough up the money. While creators can be wild-eyed and dynamic, finance people have a deserved rep for being very conservative about what they'll put money into, and Star Trek is a solid blue-chip in terms of reliable turnover. (For decades the joke was you could sell used toiletpaper for big money if it was a Star Trek product-the fans were THAT loyal.)
and Prequels tend to sell better than Sequels for some godforsaken reason-or seem to, anyway. *(hence the Aliens prequel series getting green-lit where the sequel efforts bombed hard in the nineties).
So, imagine you're wanting to get your sci-fantasy story made, and it's close enough that it can, with a bit of tweaking, be turned into a 'star trek' product...which will get you the funding you need to make it at all, whereas you'd have to fight like a demon to get the money as an indie filmmaker.
Meanwhile for the financier, there's this "I need to invest in something that is artistic, will make money, and will maintain my claimed 'geek cred' with my sunday D&D group of celebrities-Oh, I know, I'll back a Star Trek product!"
and of course CBS has a streaming service full of re-runs that won't support itself without some flagship content, and guess what? they bought the parent company that owns the Star Trek name-which is a blue-chip money maker with a specific audience that's almost guaranteed, can be a prestige project without being wholly unprofitable, and isn't a cop, medical, or reality show.
gee...
so why the prequels?
Because technology and what will sell has CHANGED. Kirk-era Communicators inspired flip-phones, but envisioning a future is actually pretty tough to do, it's easier to fit those clever jabs at modern pop-culture and current political issues if you're closer to 'now' than the 25th century, and you can re-use all the props, sets, and so on from your back lot and warehouse.
Thing is, it can be good. It can be done REALLY well, it can even be creative if you're only using stuff from some contemporary corporate drama/cop-show mixed with little, easily made props. (this is part of why time-travel episodes are SO popular-and why there were several 'cowboy' episodes in the Original Series!)
Or it can suck ass, but if you get an occasional turkey in there, well...that's hollywood. Not every episode is going to be Great, some times you'll get 'Spock's Brain'.
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I suspect it's marketing. They don't want people turning away from the brand because it's changed. So they don't say anything, just lure main stream /casual viewers to the show.
Casual viewers have always outnumbered the ones who care enough about continuity to that degree though. I mean, I'm a pretty hardcore fan and I don't even care that much.
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Casual viewers have always outnumbered the ones who care enough about continuity to that degree though. I mean, I'm a pretty hardcore fan and I don't even care that much.
If you remember from, say, back in the day, 'continuity' was always kind of a loaded issue with Trek fans, even the hardcore devoted ones (maybe most especially with those). There were inconsistencies inside the original series between episodes, inconsistencies in the history expressed, in the cultures, in the ideals, even inside the Federation itself.
getting to TNG era, and agian, lots of inconsistencies that devoted and obsessive fans argued with one another on, because they WERE inconsistent. everything from top speeds to distances to forgetting from episode to episode (or even season-to-season) what they were able to do last week versus what their major problem was this week. People trot out Janeway's uneven characterization, but sh'es not the first, nor the last, nor even the most obvious and egregious-Kate Mulgrew just happened to be unlucky when it comes to hitting a certain point in the mood of the audience where those inconsistencies really got highlighted and talked about.
There were some treks that were pretty SOLID on their internal consistency, of not their devotion to other series set previous or concurrently. (Deep Space 9 is an example), but 'canon' and universal consistency has been a fan argument since at LEAST the 1970s when Trek Fandom really got noticed on the radar of popular culture.
so the argument about "Canon" and "retcon" really kind of depends on where you're standing and what you liked versus what you ignored, or what you ignored versus what you hated, versus what you liked.
everyone carries their own interpretation, and seeks opinions that gel with that interpretation while many also are deriding opposing views with perjoratives or making accusations/speculations that they WANT to believe support their preferences.
This is in its way a symptom of 'fandom' as a state of mind.
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I swear that “Spock’s Brain” still has one of the absolute worst lines said in any of the shows. I believe it went “Brain and Brain! What is Brain?”
???
Ruger
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Ehhh... sort of. Doesn't the TOS episode have Kirk talking about "... the Metron called it a 'Gorn'...", in a way that really suggests he (and everyone else) doesn't know at all? Something like what happened with La'an would definitely warrant some kind of "Hey, be on the lookout for Gorn in this area of space until we confirm it, unless you maybe want to get eaten" type of general travel warning.
Do we have any indication it WAS the same region of space (and what are we defining as a region in this case anyway)? One incident doesn't establish a trend anyway so I find it more compelling that this will be a thing that's been noted and can easily be found checking the database, but wouldn't be automatically included in a situation report.
Frankly I find it more odd and alarming how she describes what they did to her group. Gorn are lizards and the description here is more like parasites or bugs or something.
I suspect it's marketing. They don't want people turning away from the brand because it's changed. So they don't say anything, just lure main stream /casual viewers to the show.
I mean we have people complaining about a tiny bit of text that shows up on screen for a few seconds and doesn't actually affect the story either now or in other episodes. I don't think marketing matters when people are wanting to complain more about set dressing than talk about the actual substance of the story. Star trek has ALWAYS had inconsistencies here and there both between series and within them. These things happen.
As for why this prequel: because people actually asked for this one. The entire reason Strange New Worlds exists is because the studio heard a bunch of people saying "Hey this version of Pike seems pretty cool, we would like to have a whole show with him and his Enterprise" and they actually listened.
I swear that “Spock’s Brain” still has one of the absolute worst lines said in any of the shows. I believe it went “Brain and Brain! What is Brain?”
Oh god, I didn't need to be reminded of that.
Here I was already pissed off Lower Decks made a gag of Threshold, because I thought we all agreed that never happened (for real, I wish the dialog had been to dismiss that incident as a rumor rather than to invent some technobabble name for it. Some things deserve to go away, and those two episodes are in that category)
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ANYWAY With these two episodes so far, the series seems promising. It strikes me a bit odd how moody Pike starts out in the first episode. We went over the whole "maybe I should quit" thing already WAY back in the Cage, and they haven't otherwise depicted him as being that angsty, though once he shaves his beard off he gets better.
I appreciated the appearance of one of the original, beta canon ships; Discovery did a fine job expanding Starfleet for the time period, but as far as I can tell those have all been new designs outside the Discovery herself being an unused concept for The Big E. It's a bit absurd for it to be crewed by only 3 people though. Even if it is a small ship, it's still not a shuttle; it needs at least enough people to have shifts which is like one or two dozen at a minimum. Chapel having to chase an alien down the corridor was amusing; I see Enterprise's security has always been terrible even before Kirk took command.
The ending was good. Pike kinda violates the prime directive (well, by the dialogue it becomes the prime directive right after this incident) to speachify a bit and avert a cataclysmic war, so it's nice to see just a simple, self contained message show. Disco and Picard having the end of the world as we know it has dampened that prospect quite a bit even if they try to work vignettes into their episodes. I did NOT appreciate the Kirk fakeout, but Cadet Uhura is interesting if a bit odd fanservice since you wouldn't expect someone to spend basically their entire career on just one ship.
La'an strikes me as their attempt to do another Tasha Yar, but to not screw it up this time. We'll see how it turns out.
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Episode 2, we get a bit of early humorish stuff. Chief engineer makes a proper appearance now, but hasn't done anything of note yet; Not-Jim Kirk gets electrocuted so only does slightly more. The counterbalance to this is that we're already exploring Uhura's character which is a promising sight. TOS didn't do much for her, TAS only did a little bit, and Discovery has similarly left some bridge crew as little more than verbose scenery, so this may indicate they're finally going to correct course. This is very much Uhura's episode.
I'm a bit surprised the prime directive didn't come up this time; I seem to remember averting natural disasters skirting the rules a bit by the TNG era, though their arguments for why you should let millions of people die were terrible anyway. The argument sorta happens anyway, just that it's between Pike and the "Shepherds" who seem to have an even more slavish devotion to the natural order.
Music as language *at least in the sense of carrying rich semantic context) always seemed odd to me, but I guess it's fine; the way they discover and use it worked well anyway. We also get a good classic "what's going on with the away team vs what's going on with the ship" and contrary to what I was expecting, language/communication wasn't the ultimate solution. That actual ending seems to be quite a bit of meta commentary. First off, it ties back in with the whole seeing into the future and getting PTSD over shit that's not happened yet that Pike's been dealing with, and he seems to have settled a bit more for it, but I can also see those final couple scenes being a commentary on the show's status of coming before things we already know will happen, and thus, having a predestined outcome.
All in all, I enjoyed these two episodes. They've been some decent fun, had some good things to say. I've been fairly lukewarm on Discovery, and haven't really liked Picard, and, for me, their major flaws have been the fact they have slavishly stuck to telling their season arcs about world ending disasters, which is a bit much, and the fact episode to episode writing and pacing is pretty bad even when they manage to pull out a good episode. Ditching that heaviness is already an improvement if, in fact, they are sticking to self-contained episodes for the entire run. and these two episodes do seem to be written well. First seasons in Star Trek are often disastrous, but this seems promising.
Edit: I'd also like to add, I really love the opening credits they made.
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I was thinking a bit earlier.
Durati goes off and makes different and less ASSIMILATE ALL THE THINGS!! Borg. So that the Borg in the future are different, so that would mean that the Borg in TNG would have been Durati's borg, so no Locutus, no Battle of Wolf 359, probably no Seven, none of the stuff related to the Borg and Voyager, because those borg were the classic ones. Not the Durati ones.
So....what happens? Do we just have to accept that yes that happened but they changed at some point (centuries ago) and so now are different but only now and the borg from TNG were still the Durati borg but carrying on as they would even though they shouldn't? Or do we just have to ignore one or the other or both and try and make it work in our heads because it wasn't an alternate universe or was it as they went into a mirror universe and then time travelled but also those changes made the real time and universe's borg change even though its a parallel one becau...auughh...*holds head*
Yes it was better than season one, so's being gored by a bull so its not a high bar to beat.
I will say about Nu Trek.
I enjoyed Season 4 of Discovery, season 1 was a dumpster fire, season 2 was the dumpster that had been put out and then tidied up, season 3 was okay and season 4 was good.
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Jurati's Borg are almost certainly a splinter faction instead of replacing the Prime Borg.
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Besides of Prime Borg and Jurati's Borg there is possibly 3rd one as well. So yeah, Jurati's Borg are splinter faction.
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oooh! That makes more sense! Because otherwise it would basically invalidate a huge slew of things.
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I just have to mention this: has anyone looked at the hair on STW? It's weirdly fascinating in it's magnificence.
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Ortegas and Pike definitely use the same barber
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I just have to mention this: has anyone looked at the hair on STW? It's weirdly fascinating in it's magnificence.
Having just watched the premier episode on YouTube (looks like Paramount made it free to see like they’ve done before with the other series), I agree.
Oh, and loved the episode.
Ruger
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Ortegas and Pike definitely use the same barber
this was before first contact with the Bolians and they needed to use lawnmowers to cut their hair, clearly
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You know, with regard to the Gorn, has anyone considered that Laan Noonian-Singh may have been, y’now, lying? And that maybe there’s a reason that genetically enhanced humans are so frowned upon by the 2370s, when it became an issue with Bashir? And that maybe these aren’t unrelated questions?
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You know, with regard to the Gorn, has anyone considered that Laan Noonian-Singh may have been, y’now, lying? And that maybe there’s a reason that genetically enhanced humans are so frowned upon by the 2370s, when it became an issue with Bashir? And that maybe these aren’t unrelated questions?
Second question first:
No, because the Eugenics Wars and Khan are already explanation enough for the concern over genetic tinkering.
Personally, I like the idea that not every supposed contact with an alien form of life is taken at face value, especially if there is no way to confirm the story.
Ruger
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while it is possible she was incorrect about some details (after all, this was an event that occured to her as a child, and ended when she was a young teen, so she may have gotten a bunch of details wrong) but i don't think this is the plot hole that everyone else does. in trek, first contacts with nearby space faring species rarely occur without some sort of preexisting knowledge. usually this is only indicated by dialog mentioning rumors or sightings, or the crew going to their databases to find clues to resolve some cultural hangup that is driving the plot of the week.
kirk's unfamiliarity with the Gorn could just be that Laan's descriptions didn't match the one he saw. after all she probably described horrific monsters given the emotional trauma involved with her esperiances. plus we know that the gorn have a fair degree of variation given the TOS and ENT versions had a number of physical differences. (Beta canon actually has then with genetic castes, each with distinct appearance. the TOS one from arena being a warrior, the one from ENT being an engineer, etc. in fact their society comes across as almost eusocial.)
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Case in point the Ferangi.
Offical first contact with the Ferangi occured in 2364 (the events of the Last Outpost) However there had been incidents with the Ferangi well before hand.
even if we wanna be purists and ignore Enterprise, it was eistablished that the USS Stargazer had encountered the Ferangi in 2355 in an armed incident that resulted in the loss of Picards first command, the Stargazer.
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we know that the borg were known by the federation prior to the official meeting in 2365 at J-25.even ignoring the First comtact and ENT incidents due to their time travel related nature, the federation took in El-Aurian refugees in 2265, who had lost their world to the borg. and the hansen's had recorded a fairly extensive set of rumors about the borg in the 2340's, details enough to have a fairly accurate borg scout cube model made even before they ever left to find a borg ship to study. (and the ship they found was in the alpha quadrant near the romulan nuetral zone, accordign to VOY: Dark frontier) if you add the FC and ENT events in, the federation has been aware of a cybernetic race of assimialtors for some time, and may even have put 2 and 2 together after the El-Aurian refugees told their story, but still didn't know enough to go public about it. though in the case of the borg they probably weren't in much of a hurry to make first contact.
in the case of the gorn we've seen a skeleton as part of Lorca's collection in DIS ("context is for kings") and now La'an's story. but the skeleton could have been obtained from a crash or other isolated source, and the story is a story told by a scared and half dead teenager. and the story indicates they are a hostile and aggressive species, so not one that the federation would be likely to seek out for contact intentionally.
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Yeah I definitely think it's fine. One traumatized person doesn't even qualify for a rumor, really. I don't see why any officer that hadn't read La'an's file would have heard the name "Gorn" before, and that's contingent on them actually even taking any stock in the mention.
And again it takes more than one event to establish a pattern, but as much as it seems the Federation randomly loses ships all the time, they do all seem to be random
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Did anyone else here think there were callbacks to "The Corbomite Maneuver" in SNW ep. 2? The bulbous-headed alien, the wavy visual screen effect, the tiny Enterprise vs. a much larger alien craft, even the bluff about the Enterprise being equipped with a system that would also take out the attacker...
Also, should the Enterprise be zipping around in combat like a Star Wars fighter craft? This is by far the most maneuverable we've ever seen a Federation starship apart from the Defiant in DS9, which was purpose-built for that kind of combat. I mean, I know inertial dampers are supposed to be awesome, but not THAT awesome--especially in 2258.
Cheers,
Gabe
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Did anyone else here think there were callbacks to "The Corbomite Maneuver" in SNW ep. 2? The bulbous-headed alien, the wavy visual screen effect, the tiny Enterprise vs. a much larger alien craft, even the bluff about the Enterprise being equipped with a system that would also take out the attacker...
Also, should the Enterprise be zipping around in combat like a Star Wars fighter craft? This is by far the most maneuverable we've ever seen a Federation starship apart from the Defiant in DS9, which was purpose-built for that kind of combat. I mean, I know inertial dampers are supposed to be awesome, but not THAT awesome--especially in 2258.
Cheers,
Gabe
I noticed the "The Corbomite Maneuver" idea in that episode. We do know the Enterprise would make some evasive maneuvers to try and dodge incoming fire. I just don't think they had the budget and the ability to make better shots of the Enterprise doing anything more that going "casually to the left". I would say that the ship could do some maneuvers but it wasn't as much as the Defiant from DS9. Star Trek has always been 1 ship vs 1 ship and never really had anything more and defiantly not fighters. That seems to be a new thing in nuTrek. That season 2 ender of Discovery both the Enterprise and Discovery made hundreds of fighters to fight Section 31 and they had hundreds more. In that battle that the ships and the S31 ships just sat their didn't move and fired at each other.
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Nor did they in TNG. I recall watching episodes of the Klingon Civil War, & the space battle depicted in it was a pair of Klingon BoP shooting at a stationary Enterprise. We wouldn't get dynamic battle shots IIRC until DS9 at the minimum.
Damon.
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About callbacks in the latest SNW episode I bumped into this YT video with a "theory" about the alien race (and the story) that shows up. What do you guys think?
https://youtu.be/3jNDsTyUcO8 (https://youtu.be/3jNDsTyUcO8)
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Rewatch the scenes from the Battle of Wolfe 359 in the premier episode of DS9, they have an Ambassador-class and a Nebula-class ship (IIRC) making hard 90 degree turns to attack the Borg cube. It’s not the first time you see a StarFleet ship doing some impressive maneuvers.
In fact, watch the attack on the Borg ship in First Contact as well. IIRC, there were some fancy maneuvers in there too.
Ruger
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Yeah, unfortunately I don't think we can make anything at all out of what the special effects they used. Voyager seemed kinda zippy to me too.
Every time a ship has moved it's more or less been moving at the speed of budget/technical capabilities.
Holy crap, though the Enterprise did get short with a surprising number of torpedoes for "we can't take many more of those". I'm not sure that even counts as dodging.
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Rewatch the scenes from the Battle of Wolfe 359 in the premier episode of DS9, they have an Ambassador-class and a Nebula-class ship (IIRC) making hard 90 degree turns to attack the Borg cube. It’s not the first time you see a StarFleet ship doing some impressive maneuvers.
In fact, watch the attack on the Borg ship in First Contact as well. IIRC, there were some fancy maneuvers in there too.
Ruger
DS9 version of wolf 359:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgAlog2eTEg
and the enterprise does some pretty zippy maneuvers at times in TNG, usually just in brief scenes where they turn around to leave a meeting with another ship.
a good, though less noticable example is in "booby trap" where picard flies the Ent-D agilely through an asteroid field using only one thruster pack at a time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hycMgv8nSO0
given the sheer mass of the galaxy class, those have to be extremely powerful thrusters.
the main reason the Ent-D rarely seemed to maneuver much in fights was just the nature of the battles.. they were usually either things that started during negotiations where both side's ships were stationary when the shooting began, or were ambushes where picard/riker was trying for non-violent resolutions, and only resorted to weaponry as a last resort. (or in the case of yesterday's enterprise, was tied to a specific location and acting to shield another ship from harm, preventing complex maneuvering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igF62y6dlJk )
of course all of this was the development of the modelwork camera rigs and compositing technology over the course of TNG allowing for more impressive VFX.. and DS9 coming in at the end of that process for model work, and then pioneering the use of computer graphics in trek shows as an alternative to physical models. (that DS9 sopent the first several seasons with much smaller and more agile looking craft, the runabouts, probably helped.. no one expects a massive ship liek the galaxy class to pull hairpin turns, though it did sometimes. but a runabout is small and feels more like a fighter than a battleship. then they applied that style of the defiant.. a battleship that flies like a fighter. :) )
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I will admit my first though of seeing the Enterprise do what it did after the order to conduct evasive maneuvers, was "Hey - actual maneuvering!".
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Ok, binge-watched Picard. It is record from lodoss war: A RPG game turned TV series. Enjoyable without being top notch. It is a peg above Discovery though, since Picard is better than the main girl of Disco (can’t remember the name) and the aesthetic is more grounded in older star trek looks.
Now on the good and the bad with spoilers:
I LOVED the Rios character and his IA programs. That actor is great. If I were an actor I would love to be able to play such a multiplicity of characters in the same show.
Dahj/Soji was nice, as were the other 2 other female main characters (Raffi and Agnes Jurati). Picard OK-ish. Not a fan of the character. Surprisingly, I enjoyed the duo of Riker-Troi for the first time in my life. I could never stomach Troi in TNG (and hence could never really stomach much of TNG since she was a central character). Hugh, the ex-Borg director of the cube was a solid actor in the few scenes that he played. 7 of 9 meh.
However, the Romulans fell short. Too cartoony villains, even for Star Trek. Specially the Narissa actress overdid it, and it was not very believable to me. I was just waiting for her to cackle uncontrollably after telling the protagonists all the plot and secrets she had. Narek was better but was handled a losing script by the writers; his relationship with Soji is a “are you serious you are trying to make this crap fly?” situation to me. And the supersecret organization of Zat Vash (or whatever is its name) is the most voiced supersecret organization ever. I think they must even have a brand of toilet paper with that name. In a sense the Romulans were the red shirts of the show. Elnor also fell short since he is just a minmaxed RPG character.
The last part with the synths and the… metal tentacles?... that came out of that hole downgraded the show. I loved the CGI on so many warbirds, though. I am a sucker for Klingon birds of prey and Romulan warbirds.
And the neutralization of the synths… well that is just plain stupid as a plot device. But then we have real world examples of people doing stupider things for less reason, so…
All in all it sounded like a Traveller or star wars RPG game. With combat in every gaming session. A true RPG. I will watch season 2. It is a good show to run while painting.
I like that the Romulans were right in their fears.
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I will say that in the federation in the shows and movies the starships generally don't seem too agile but from a practical point of view until or unless you have a form of inertial damping/stabilization ships that mass in the hundreds of thousands to millions of tons are going to be rather sluggish.
as to weather star trek ever had fighters there are fighters in various references. the star fleet academy episodes with "wesley" and nova squadron.
there were also references to romulans using small sublight patrol craft, and larger warp capable carriers that took them to their patrol areas.
also there are references to fighters and other small craft in the novels, we just don't usually see them in the shows/movies
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also there are references to fighters and other small craft in the novels, we just don't usually see them in the shows/movies
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Federation_attack_fighter
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I will say that in the federation in the shows and movies the starships generally don't seem too agile but from a practical point of view until or unless you have a form of inertial damping/stabilization ships that mass in the hundreds of thousands to millions of tons are going to be rather sluggish.
as to weather star trek ever had fighters there are fighters in various references. the star fleet academy episodes with "wesley" and nova squadron.
there were also references to romulans using small sublight patrol craft, and larger warp capable carriers that took them to their patrol areas.
also there are references to fighters and other small craft in the novels, we just don't usually see them in the shows/movies
I mean unless you have inertia dampening tech the crew are gonna be bloody smears on the ship everytime it accelerates to a decent fraction of lightspeed. o obviously they have inertia dampening
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I mean unless you have inertia dampening tech the crew are gonna be bloody smears on the ship everytime it accelerates to a decent fraction of lightspeed. o obviously they have inertia dampening
if you ever read "how much for the planet" there was a scene in the beginning where the ships computer explains the maneuver it was going to cause a bunch of heat, and many g's which would turn the crew into "strawberry jam on toast"
the novels battlestations, and Dreadnaught they used small craft stowed on the ship, fighters and another small craft, they weren't actual shuttles (the 6-10 man vehicles) but 1-2 person small craft
I realize that novels are secondary canon (at best) but it makes sense that some kind of small craft would be used if they were at all feasible
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The Novels aren't even secondary canon. they're lisenced fan fiction and nothing more
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The Novels aren't even secondary canon. they're lisenced fan fiction and nothing more
Spock Messiah!'s existence agrees with this.
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The Novels aren't even secondary canon. they're lisenced fan fiction and nothing more
Which is a shame, since at least some of them are written by scriptwriters for Trek (like D.C. Fontana). It would have been nice if they were B-canon, but alas no. I really liked their take on the Romulans in the Rihansu series.
Damon.
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regarding "fighters".. Ds9 made extensive use of them. from their using the runabouts in such roles, to the maquis who used various warp capable shuttlecraft refit to carry guns, to the Dominion war where the Federation made use of attack fighters in the major battles, which proved fairly effective at taking down cardassian warships.
the maquis "armed shuttle fighters" show up in TNG as well, since they were doing a cross-series thing with them at the time. (where the cardassian warship Vetar under the command of Gul Evek was arecurring punching bag on both TNG and DS9, having partly instigated the whole maquis conflict and frequently being disabled by maquis attack.. the last of which was Chakotay's raider, which got both ships pulled into the delta quadrant, though the Cardassians got sent back quickly)
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Rewatch the scenes from the Battle of Wolfe 359 in the premier episode of DS9, they have an Ambassador-class and a Nebula-class ship (IIRC) making hard 90 degree turns to attack the Borg cube. It’s not the first time you see a StarFleet ship doing some impressive maneuvers.
In fact, watch the attack on the Borg ship in First Contact as well. IIRC, there were some fancy maneuvers in there too.
Ruger
Hmm, OK, and there's also the NX-01's shenanigans in ST:ENT, especially in S3 (the Xindi arc). However, that was a smaller, effectively unibody ship, much like the Defiant.
It's the ones with short, thin "necks" connecting the saucer to the secondary hull where I question that kind of movement.
Basically, there are two ways of conceiving starship combat on screen, and I guess it depends a lot on who's in the director's chair. The first is what we've seen on SNW and the aforementioned examples, where the ships can maneuver like giant starfighters. The second is ship-of-the-line combat in three dimensions, such as the Enterprise vs. Reliant battle in WoK. Definitely not as dynamic but emphasizes the grace and majesty of the ships.
Cheers,
Gabe
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I just watched Eps.3 and came away with this: The end events will come back to haunt them (presumably in a couple OOC years, if the series has legs than long) presumably. I look forward to that.
In terms of star dates, how long, TV seasons wise, can this show run before Kirk takes command (presumably during a Change of Command ceremony with Pike)? If that could be allowed to happen, does that mean we could possibly see TOS toons rotate to the Enterprise, eventually?
again, if this show was allowed to have those kinds of legs...
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I just watched Eps.3 and came away with this: The end events will come back to haunt them (presumably in a couple OOC years, if the series has legs than long) presumably. I look forward to that.
In terms of star dates, how long, TV seasons wise, can this show run before Kirk takes command (presumably during a Change of Command ceremony with Pike)? If that could be allowed to happen, does that mean we could possibly see TOS toons rotate to the Enterprise, eventually?
again, if this show was allowed to have those kinds of legs...
iirc it is set 10 years prior to his taking command, so if it makes it that long, it'll have beat not only every other star trek series, but also be neck and neck with stargate sg1, the longest continuous scifi series.
ion checking memory alpha, it starts in 2259, 7 years before kirk takes over. which means if it reached that point, it would be about as long as Voyager and Deep space Nine. i suspect this was intentional, since it seems unlikely that the show would reach that point.
for reference: (generally one in universe year per season)
TOS: 3 seasons
TNG: 7 seasons
DS9: 7 seasons
VOY: 7 seasons
ENT: 4 seasons
DIS: 4 seasons, ongoing
LowerDecks: 2 seasons, ongoing (3rd season in the worls)
PIC: 2 seasons, ongoing (3rd season in the works, doesn't follow the "1 year per season" average)
SNW: 1 season, ongoing (2nd season already filmed, 3rd scheduled)
Prodigy: 1 season, ongoing (2nd to be released soon, doesn't follow the "1 year per season" average)
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I just watched Eps.3 and came away with this: The end events will come back to haunt them (presumably in a couple OOC years, if the series has legs than long) presumably. I look forward to that.
Indeed. It seems like a number of these characters are being set up for big, tragic falls that either end or otherwise derail their Starfleet careers (aside from Pike, whose fate we already know). Case in point: M’Benga is apparently still serving on the Enterprise during the TOS timeframe, but he’s no longer the Chief Medical Officer.
Cheers,
Gabe
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I'm going to come at this in a bit of a left-field way...
When I worked at a Chinese university, I got free annual physical exams as part of the job. I had to give urine samples, blood samples, and even got ultrasound scans of my soft tissues. These actually turned out to be useful since I was alerted to a fatty growth on my liver after one of them. Luckily, I never got any results indicating something grossly abnormal or out of place. (It's one of the very few things I miss about that job. )
Now, call me naive, but I would imagine that Starfleet personnel, particularly senior officers, would also have to submit to such exams to ensure they were in continued good health, given the peculiarities of their work environment (long periods in an hermetically-sealed regular workspace, frequent exposure to alien environments, etc.).
Unless this is in fact not the case, how was Una able to keep her true nature concealed for so long? If she did have to undergo such regular exams, you would think that eventually one would've picked up something a little off about her.
cheers,
Gabe
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The Novels aren't even secondary canon. they're lisenced fan fiction and nothing more
Except that the current crop of writers and producers (at least one of whom--Kirsten Beyer--is an ex-novelist), who are the ones who get to define canon now, are mining that so-called "licensed fan fiction" for plot and character ideas and turning them into on-screen canon.
cheers,
Gabe
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So, this time we get the Gorn! Except we don't get to see them, only their funky ships. I hope we get to visit them again later - and see how they have evolved from the rubber suits on TOS :D
The black hole looked like it was taken out of Interstellar in parts.
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The black hole looked like it was taken out of Interstellar in parts.
There’s a reason for that. The movie in question went to a well-known astrophysicist, Kip Thorne, got an equation that would describe a black hole and, after crunching a terabyte’s worth of data into their modeling software using that equation, got the results you saw in that film…
…which were then essentially confirmed by real images of supermassive black holes M87 and Sagittarius A, at least to the ability of our telescopes to image. So VFX production staff for Strange New Worlds, wanting their black hole to look realistic, would end up with basically the same result.
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There’s a reason for that. The movie in question went to a well-known astrophysicist, Kip Thorne, got an equation that would describe a black hole and, after crunching a terabyte’s worth of data into their modeling software using that equation, got the results you saw in that film…
…which were then essentially confirmed by real images of supermassive black holes M87 and Sagittarius A, at least to the ability of our telescopes to image. So VFX production staff for Strange New Worlds, wanting their black hole to look realistic, would end up with basically the same result.
How short our memories are. The DMA from DISCO S4, which was made mind-bogglingly large, was given the same general appearance.
On a somewhat related note, some of the astronomical phenomena shown in the main title sequence from SNW are based on real images taken by the Hubble space telescope.
cheers,
Gabe
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So, this time we get the Gorn! Except we don't get to see them, only their funky ships. I hope we get to visit them again later - and see how they have evolved from the rubber suits on TOS :D
We already know--remember the CGI Gorn from "In A Mirror, Darkly"?
You know, writing that just made me think of something else. I never quite liked how that ST:ENT two-parter put together bits of "Mirror, Mirror", "The Tholian Web", and "Arena", trying to move them to the retro-2150's setting.
And as thrilling as the action was in SNW ep. 4...it's the same problem. Only more of it.
Destruction of outlying Federation colony by unknown enemy from "Arena"--check
Using Federation's compassionate nature to bait them into another attack--check
Sub hunt-type battle with elements from "Balance of Terror" (TOS), "Starship Down" (DS9) and the Mutara Nebula battle (TWOK)--check
Slingshot around a gravity well from "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" (TOS), STIV:TVH, and ST:PIC S2--check (only NOT used for time travel here!)
True, it was all put together in a way that actually made for a pretty dark and compelling episode, but it looks like so far, a lot of these "new" stories are recycled and repurposed bits of older ones. With a universe that has as much canon built up as Star Trek's does, it's going to be kind of difficult to come up with a "this REALLY hasn't been done before" storyline, but for longtime fans, a lot of SNW so far has been a game of spot-the-trope/reference.
I also don't like the way they're trying to set the Gorn up as the Big Bads for this season; what I mean by that is that they're doing it calling them BY NAME. "Arena" seemed to make clear that the Gorn were a species new to Starfleet; now, they're like a more savage version of the Romulans, who had actually fought the Federation for some time but whose appearance wasn't visually revealed until "Balance of Terror". Instead, we have Pike looking at a datapad with the word "GORN" on it in the series premiere, and La'an referring to them by name when recounting her childhood trauma. They could have just described the Gorn as a species of large, monstrous, bipedal reptilian-looking aliens without actually naming them, and that would've been enough to tip fans off as to who it was.
At least they gave the Gorn those cool-looking asymmetrical ships, though. (Must make maintaining a warp field a bit tough.) And Anson Mount just has to keep bringing it as Pike.
cheers,
Gabe
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if they make the gorn the big bads for the entire series that could be annoying. at the same time I think that having the gorn occasionally pop up as a "they're around raiding, and no ones seen them" done right, sparingly, could actually make the TOS episode "the arena" more meaningful
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The Gorn at least in TOS seemed like big slow really really strong old battleships...not fast and agile.
That being said the ships moving around flying in circles and all moving quick seem very not much like Gorn to me.
The should be slow plodding with lots and lots of firepower for their size.
The fact that the ships look like they did is just modern sci-fi ship alien ship making. They don't look built they look almost grown and badly. None of the ships look like ships put together with panels and metal-ish things.
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Last week was very paint-by-numbers. A disappeared colony is a pretty standard story and we've also seen outbreak episodes in most series, so we've seen everything this episode has to offer before. Nevertheless it's pretty good.
We start off with your typical mystery: What happened to all these colonists? but that quickly goes to being a background detail behind the unfolding plague plot and two people stuck on the surface. We quickly see the tension ratcheted up; threads get piled on, we get to learn about La'an's relationship with Khan, and I get the impression he's a fairly notorious figure, so I think they are fully retconning that Khan was just some dude Enterprise picked up who happened to be a bad guy.
At any rate we see that Khan being her ancestor has impacted a fair bit how La'An thinks, and get started on our mini moral lesson for the day: prejudice is stupid, and you shouldn't make snap judgements. We also get hints something is going on with M'Benga and maybe a bit more insight into how Hemmer works given he can at least sense the lights went out and is not immune to this light based sickness going as far as to try and beam up some hot rock. Speaking of, Number One picking his unconscious body up like it's nothing further hints she's not quite what she seems either.
Back on the planet we get Spock poking in journals around while Pike just does an anxiety. Some new aliens sow up in the ion storm; your standard energy creature. It's pretty obvious what/who those are, and that's confirmed a couple scenes later when Pike and Spock's lives are saved by the creatures. We also get a bit ore discussion on the federation's prejudices with regards to genetic engineering.
The main plot comes to a head with the genetic engineering prejudices becoming more personal after an altercation between Number One and La'an. But hey, deathmatch 1701 at least provides the magic cure. Part of being a typical Star trek episode also means that this disease itself makes no sense (transmitted via light? really?), and so the cure isn't a thing we've gotten active research on, we just get a "there's nothing more I can do" and the cure gets deus ex machinaed in a way that also makes no sense (really? you can immune system someone else's body? AND it fights radiation?). The nature of the creatures they found planetside is similarly bogus.
We get some nice heart to hearts though, and some threads that will probably take the whole season and may explain some crew changes (M'benga is someone two appears in TOS, but not as chief medical officer anymore)
Now, call me naive, but I would imagine that Starfleet personnel, particularly senior officers, would also have to submit to such exams to ensure they were in continued good health, given the peculiarities of their work environment (long periods in an hermetically-sealed regular workspace, frequent exposure to alien environments, etc.).
Unless this is in fact not the case, how was Una able to keep her true nature concealed for so long? If she did have to undergo such regular exams, you would think that eventually one would've picked up something a little off about her.
I'm actually curious just HOW the genetic modifications present. The only reason they found out about Dr. Bashir a century later is his father accidentally outted him to a hologram. Part of the dub with this episode is that Dr Mbenga finds nothing at all in her blood and that's why they cant synthesize a cure. Certainly a curious thing when you look at it, but how often does a routine physical check to see if you have anitbodies? You kinda want the best people, so being too healthy may not be a red flag. That means the real question is "does anything seem wierd?"
There’s a reason for that. The movie in question went to a well-known astrophysicist, Kip Thorne, got an equation that would describe a black hole and, after crunching a terabyte’s worth of data into their modeling software using that equation, got the results you saw in that film…
…which were then essentially confirmed by real images of supermassive black holes M87 and Sagittarius A, at least to the ability of our telescopes to image. So VFX production staff for Strange New Worlds, wanting their black hole to look realistic, would end up with basically the same result.
It's really cool how that works too. A few times we've seen Star trek's idea of a black hole, and the real thing is so much cooler.
Of course, they did still take a few liberties with their space geography.
Anyway, this week was an adventure. They do a good job channeling the the space battles from TOS and its movies but with a much better budget to make thing look pretty. Pretty fun introduction to the episode with us getting to see the chemistry between Uhura and Hemmer, but they're not actually the focus for our episode even if they're important.
This is a La'an episode. She starts off out of sorts and basically spends the entire episode slightly tilted because this week we're talkig about trauma. We're taking on the Gorn, or rather the Gorn is doing all the taking, and they are her backstory. The episode actually begins sorta like Arena does: the Enterprise on its way to some remote colony for routine stuff arrives to find a slaughter and a trap, but it's a bit more gruesome this time between the blood streaks (rather than just scortch marks) and the fact the plot proper kicks off by the enterprise getting the crap beat out of her and some people blown up.
I am actually a bit intruiged. I noticed she gets called Lt Noonien Singh. Seems odd to me. Usually Singh is a surname Sikh men adopt, so Noonien is the proper familial name which is usually what she's been called by. If she is a Sikh she'd been Noonien Kaur by tradition. But, of course, maybe she's bucking tradition or it got outdated, and Singh can also just be a normal surname. Who know? Seems odd, though.
We actually get the plot started proper when La'An realizes this matches the Gorn who she still has nightmares about then all hell breaks lose. With the Big E getting beat on, our usual first officer is indisposed so La'an is now in charge, and this means it's a good time to actually explore how she handles her traumas and when the situation is too close to home. We also get to see them ****** the VERY obvious Checkov's Gun right at the start. I spent most of the episode wondering when that would go off. The way it's described it's basically the giant cone from Aliens but ship-portable, but they make clear several times, it's going to end u the same way.
Actual action is very Mutara Mebula meets Balance of Terror (or *insert submarine film here*) They do a decent job technobabbling their solutions this week. Losing all of their torpedoes but one is a bit of a stretch though. The Gorn ships looked interesting, and something at least a bit different. We also get something on how they communicate which helps a bit, and La'an gets some personal time with spock to discuss loss.
So, I went to watch The Area after this, and I don't really see anything incompatible. Kirk just says the Metreons called it a Gorn, but I don't see how that indicates the Gorn were unknown to everyone. Whether or not Kirk knew of the gorn he might still have made mention he was given. The region of space they are in is basically "Here be dragons" as Spock says they know nothing but there are legends, so it's already established everything is a surprise. The only thing I think we can definitively establish given that and this SNW episode is that the attack in this recent eisode happend some way away. Still I will grant the Enterprise being involved increases the chances Kirk might have heard of them, but I still don't think there's a reason to know he's heard of every species out there.
No, what really doesn't mesh is the motivations. in The Arena, what little dialogue we get from the Gorn captain is to accuse the Federation of being invaders and say that's why they destroyed the colony, though it doesn't explain them setting up a trap. Nevertheless the coda of the episode is that maybe these "monsters" are just more people out there, and there's room for diplomacy and peace. Now we have the Gorn as just attacking because they're bloodthirsty monsters. Maybe a later episode will say this is just La'An's prejudice, but by this episode at least, there's nothing to refute it.
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Interesting character study of Anson Mount's approach to portraying Pike and what makes him such an effective ( and somewhat unconventional) captain:
https://collider.com/anson-mount-captain-pike-star-trek-masculinity-explained/amp/ (https://collider.com/anson-mount-captain-pike-star-trek-masculinity-explained/amp/)
Cheers,
Gabe
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Davy Perez, one of the writers of SNW episode 4, attempts to explain and defend the handling of the Gorn's introduction:
https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-gorn-canon-explained
(https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-gorn-canon-explained)
Cheers,
Gabe
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seems about right, and yeah the contrast of La'an's "you can't make peace with the Gorn" and Kirk's actions where very noticable. I thought it was a great example of how to do a prequal "right" in that Kirk ends up looking even better by the end of the episode
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So, I went to watch The Area after this, and I don't really see anything incompatible. Kirk just says the Metreons called it a Gorn, but I don't see how that indicates the Gorn were unknown to everyone. Whether or not Kirk knew of the gorn he might still have made mention he was given. The region of space they are in is basically "Here be dragons" as Spock says they know nothing but there are legends, so it's already established everything is a surprise. The only thing I think we can definitively establish given that and this SNW episode is that the attack in this recent eisode happend some way away. Still I will grant the Enterprise being involved increases the chances Kirk might have heard of them, but I still don't think there's a reason to know he's heard of every species out there.
No, what really doesn't mesh is the motivations. in The Arena, what little dialogue we get from the Gorn captain is to accuse the Federation of being invaders and say that's why they destroyed the colony, though it doesn't explain them setting up a trap. Nevertheless the coda of the episode is that maybe these "monsters" are just more people out there, and there's room for diplomacy and peace. Now we have the Gorn as just attacking because they're bloodthirsty monsters. Maybe a later episode will say this is just La'An's prejudice, but by this episode at least, there's nothing to refute it.
The thing is, though, even in "Arena", the Gorn WERE pretty vicious. There was no obvious Gorn presence already on Cestus III to advertise they had claimed the world; there also doesn't seem to have been any attempt at even gunboat diplomacy (i.e., "you have built this colony on a planet in space that we claim, we consider this a prelude to invasion, abandon your colony now or face awful destruction"). No, the Gorn just show up and destroy the outpost without initiating contact, and even take steps to bait the Federation into falling prey to another attack. That's both vicious AND duplicitous--exactly the opposite of the kinds of morals the Federation (outwardly) upholds.
Seen that way, I'm not sure what the actual moral of "Arena" really is**, and I'm inclined to think La'an's view of the Gorn is actually closer to correct. But that's not the key issue here--what *is* is whether or not, and to what extent, "Memento Mori" breaks canon concerning when Starfleet actually became aware of the Gorn. (Also unexplained, of course, is where Lorca got his Gorn skeleton seen in DISCO S1--I don't think he brought it with him from the Mirror Universe).
**I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's really this: "we Feddies don't kill defeated enemies when given the chance, no matter how undeserving of mercy they are, and we are therefore more worthy of eventual contact with higher beings like the Metrons."
cheers,
Gabe
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I'm gonna say this: I look forward to someone explaining what possibly changes T-Spockwife's mind now, at the end of Spock Amok and Amok Time.
A very excellent episode. :))
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Jurati's Borg are almost certainly a splinter faction instead of replacing the Prime Borg.
This was confirmed by Terry Matalas:
https://trekmovie.com/2022/06/01/clarified-how-queen-juratis-collective-from-star-trek-picard-impacted-the-borg-we-know/ (https://trekmovie.com/2022/06/01/clarified-how-queen-juratis-collective-from-star-trek-picard-impacted-the-borg-we-know/)
How the Borgrati have managed to lie low and avoid the wrath of the Prime Borg remains to be seen.
cheers,
Gabe
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I'm gonna say this: I look forward to someone explaining what possibly changes T-Spockwife's mind now, at the end of Spock Amok and Amok Time.
A very excellent episode. :))
Perhaps Spock does end up having a fling with Chapel and T'Pring gets wind of it? Hell hath no fury and all that...so her revenge is making Spock fight his best friend.
cheers,
Gabe
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Some extra tidbits on Admiral Janeway's USS Dauntless, which is indeed a Starfleet reverse-engineer of the fake ship seen in ST:VOY, based on the data Voyager brought back with it:
https://trekmovie.com/2022/06/08/star-trek-prodigy-producer-clarifies-details-on-admiral-janeways-uss-dauntless/ (https://trekmovie.com/2022/06/08/star-trek-prodigy-producer-clarifies-details-on-admiral-janeways-uss-dauntless/)
It apparently has a functional quantum slipstream drive. How well it works remains to be seen.
cheers,
Gabe
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I'm gonna say this: I look forward to someone explaining what possibly changes T-Spockwife's mind now, at the end of Spock Amok and Amok Time.
A very excellent episode. :))
Time'll do it. being a "navy wife" is hard.
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Episode 6 was ok...kinda a let down at the ending, but a Star Trek version of The Lottery. Pike was good but not the great Pike from the other episodes.
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I'm really enjoying Strange New Pants. Its a huge step up from Picard (then again's so's being hit in the shins by someone with a crowbar) and whilst I've enjoyed Season 4 of Discovery, it did meander and have lots of filler, by having single one shot eps again we've got it good.
Effects and sets are stunning, the acting's really good, even if Spock does have like a hugely deep voice :D Can't wait to see the next ep going off the teaser for it :D
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I'm really enjoying Strange New Pants.
Motion to rename the thread, any seconds?
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Episode 6 was ok...kinda a let down at the ending, but a Star Trek version of The Lottery. Pike was good but not the great Pike from the other episodes.
Why, because he was tempted by a life of comfort and avoidance of his fate offered by somebody who he already had a romantic connection with? This is actually not entirely inconsistent with the original version of Pike seen in "The Cage", where he's actually contemplating giving up his Starfleet career and running a joint where he'd have half-naked Orion slave girls performing (a vision of which he's actually tempted with by the Talosians). So, for all his awesome qualities, he still has that weakness, he's still coming to terms with knowledge of his impending doom and trying to finagle a way out.
The main inspiration here, I think, is the Ursula LeGuin story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas", which the writers also drew on for DISCO S3, but this follows that story much more closely. Also a slight nod to _Snowpiercer_ here, IMO (at least Bong Joon-Ho's film adaptation), _Logan's Run_, and the Neo Seoul sequences from _Cloud Atlas_.
cheers,
Gabe
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Why, because he was tempted by a life of comfort and avoidance of his fate offered by somebody who he already had a romantic connection with? This is actually not entirely inconsistent with the original version of Pike seen in "The Cage", where he's actually contemplating giving up his Starfleet career and running a joint where he'd have half-naked Orion slave girls performing (a vision of which he's actually tempted with by the Talosians). So, for all his awesome qualities, he still has that weakness, he's still coming to terms with knowledge of his impending doom and trying to finagle a way out.
The main inspiration here, I think, is the Ursula LeGuin story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas", which the writers also drew on for DISCO S3, but this follows that story much more closely. Also a slight nod to _Snowpiercer_ here, IMO (at least Bong Joon-Ho's film adaptation), _Logan's Run_, and the Neo Seoul sequences from _Cloud Atlas_.
cheers,
Gabe
I agree with you. The problem with me comparing Pike from "The Cage" and Pike from SNW don't really work. The Cage was just a pilot that didn't work so well and shot a new pilot with the Shatman and a whole new crew so don't really know of the direction of the show and what to do next. Even the Federation wasn't a thing until like 10 or so episodes in.
So for Pike for in this episode he wasn't as cool and collective as he normally is in all episodes. Its almost like he wasn't thinking and thinking with his "second" brain with the old fling on the hover city planet. Please don't get me wrong Pike by far is the best thing about SNW to me and I give him a 8 in the episode which is way above everyone else in the show...but when he normally kicks out a 11 out of 10 its noticeable.
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This was confirmed by Terry Matalas:
https://trekmovie.com/2022/06/01/clarified-how-queen-juratis-collective-from-star-trek-picard-impacted-the-borg-we-know/ (https://trekmovie.com/2022/06/01/clarified-how-queen-juratis-collective-from-star-trek-picard-impacted-the-borg-we-know/)
How the Borgrati have managed to lie low and avoid the wrath of the Prime Borg remains to be seen.
cheers,
Gabe
I think the fact that the Borgati know the history of the Prime Borg should make it very easy to avoid the Prime Borg and any other necessary avoidances.
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I'm gonna say this: I look forward to someone explaining what possibly changes T-Spockwife's mind now, at the end of Spock Amok and Amok Time.
A very excellent episode. :))
Time'll do it. being a "navy wife" is hard.
We're currently on a Five-Year mission aboard the Enterprise in 2259. I believe it's the second under Christopher Pike, as he'd been away on one in 2257 when the Federation-Klingon War occurred during S1 Discovery, and also to line up with when events during "The Cage" took place.
Spock would later go on to serve under James T. Kirk on another Five-Year mission aboard the Enterprise. This mission began in 2265 and lasted until 2270, covering the time during which the TOS episode "Amok Time" occurs in 2267. Note that Spock began serving aboard the Enterprise in 2254, per the Short Trek "Q&A". The incident on Talos IV also occurred in 2254.
So, by 2267, Spock's been aboard the Enterprise for around 13 years, and their mission is expected to go on for another three years? We're eight years past the episode "Spock Amok".
Yeah, "Time'll do it" indeed, and better understanding or not, she still doesn't want to chase him across the damn galaxy. She's made that clear.
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Spock also strikes me as the sort who would still find important work to do if the Enterprise were hovering over his house
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I think the fact that the Borgati know the history of the Prime Borg should make it very easy to avoid the Prime Borg and any other necessary avoidances.
The Borgati are from the alternate universe in which they were defeated, and the Queen was the only one left. They were not the standard Borg in the normal universe.
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The Borgati are from the alternate universe in which they were defeated, and the Queen was the only one left. They were not the standard Borg in the normal universe.
Yes but remember, the Queen could see across timelines, as she still recognized J-LP as Locutus (was she El-Aurian?). Their history up until their first encounter with the Confederation of Earth would also have been the same as the Prime Borg. Also when that defeat happened, they were still functionally Prime Borg; the Borgrati only begin with Agnes being assimilated in 2024. So with the timeline being restored, Queen Agnes still has to find a way of treading carefully and avoiding the Prime Borg, both to save her own collective and to ensure that the Prime Borg's own history unfolds as it should, culminating in their defeat by alternate Janeway.
cheers,
Gabe
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Yes but remember, the Queen could see across timelines, as she still recognized J-LP as Locutus (was she El-Aurian?). Their history up until their first encounter with the Confederation of Earth would also have been the same as the Prime Borg. Also when that defeat happened, they were still functionally Prime Borg; the Borgrati only begin with Agnes being assimilated in 2024. So with the timeline being restored, Queen Agnes still has to find a way of treading carefully and avoiding the Prime Borg, both to save her own collective and to ensure that the Prime Borg's own history unfolds as it should, culminating in their defeat by alternate Janeway.
cheers,
Gabe
Alternate Universe Confed tech didn't seem that much more advanced that Fed tech at the time. I'm just trying to figure how the Confed beat the Klingons, Romulans and others yet alone the Borg...just things don't add up to me. Which don't mean much to me because the whole Confed subplot was very confusing to me.
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Alternate Universe Confed tech didn't seem that much more advanced that Fed tech at the time. I'm just trying to figure how the Confed beat the Klingons, Romulans and others yet alone the Borg...just things don't add up to me. Which don't mean much to me because the whole Confed subplot was very confusing to me.
Why must their tech be so much better? StarFleet/UFP has not conquered them in the Prime because they simple are not an agressive expansive military force. They value peace and diplomancy and shy away from conflict.
Confed (like the Terran Empire) glorifies martial action - and an agressive UFP on a war footing and willing to sacrifice troops could easily have defeated their enemies.
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Why must their tech be so much better? StarFleet/UFP has not conquered them in the Prime because they simple are not an agressive expansive military force. They value peace and diplomancy and shy away from conflict.
Confed (like the Terran Empire) glorifies martial action - and an agressive UFP on a war footing and willing to sacrifice troops could easily have defeated their enemies.
A friend of mine long-maintained that if Picard had just shot the hell out of that first Borg Cube instead of stopping after they disabled the tractor beam back in Q-Who it would never have been able to adapt to their weapons or inform the Collective of Starfleet's capabilities
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A friend of mine long-maintained that if Picard had just shot the hell out of that first Borg Cube instead of stopping after they disabled the tractor beam back in Q-Who it would never have been able to adapt to their weapons or inform the Collective of Starfleet's capabilities
Depends on the writer/plot. Sometimes all Borg and Borg ships are in constant contact with all others. At other times, not so much. Depends on the needs of the story.
Ruger
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It seemed like to me the Borg could adapt pretty fast to tech inferior to theirs. They got all the info they wanted when they beamed on the D and downloaded stuff while everyone looked around in awe for a couple of minutes until Picard told Worf to do something. The Fed would be no more if the borg sent more than 1 Cube at a time. Both sides seemed not to show urgency on dealing with each other.
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Battle of Wolf 359 showed how scary single Borg Cube can be let alone if they chose to send more than that.
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I'm just trying to figure how the Confed beat the Klingons, Romulans and others yet alone the Borg...just things don't add up to me. Which don't mean much to me because the whole Confed subplot was very confusing to me.
By being absolutely ruthless and immoral, like the Terran Empire (which they basically were, under another name). They certainly seem like they'd resort to every evil trick in the book to make sure they got their "Human universe".
What was confusing was not the Confed setting itself, but how Adam Soong fit into the whole thing and how he set them on the path to being such a vicious, xenophobic, authoritarian entity when there was little evidence that he himself held such views. He certainly had leanings toward eugenicism, but that doesn't automatically translate into the "destroy all other species" credo the Confederation adhered to.
And what exactly was he trying to accomplish with the project that culminated in Kore? Was it in any way connected to his "Project Khan"? (now there was a totally needless, ham-fisted reference by the writers--replace "Khan" with "Augment" and its importance would've been just as clear)
And how is it that every generation of Soongs looks pretty much like Adam? Do they ultimately resort to cloning themselves a la Jango/Boba Fett, and then training their cloned offspring?
Speaking of which...we've seen:
--Adam Soong in PIC S2
--Arik Soong in ENT
--Noonian Soong in TNG
--Altan Soong in PIC S1
so are we due for a Soong in SNW, bridging the gap between Arik (who was a fairly logical follow-on from Adam) and Noonian?
cheers,
Gabe
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By being absolutely ruthless and immoral, like the Terran Empire (which they basically were, under another name). They certainly seem like they'd resort to every evil trick in the book to make sure they got their "Human universe".
What was confusing was not the Confed setting itself, but how Adam Soong fit into the whole thing and how he set them on the path to being such a vicious, xenophobic, authoritarian entity when there was little evidence that he himself held such views. He certainly had leanings toward eugenicism, but that doesn't automatically translate into the "destroy all other species" credo the Confederation adhered to.
And what exactly was he trying to accomplish with the project that culminated in Kore? Was it in any way connected to his "Project Khan"? (now there was a totally needless, ham-fisted reference by the writers--replace "Khan" with "Augment" and its importance would've been just as clear)
And how is it that every generation of Soongs looks pretty much like Adam? Do they ultimately resort to cloning themselves a la Jango/Boba Fett, and then training their cloned offspring?
Speaking of which...we've seen:
--Adam Soong in PIC S2
--Arik Soong in ENT
--Noonian Soong in TNG
--Altan Soong in PIC S1
so are we due for a Soong in SNW, bridging the gap between Arik (who was a fairly logical follow-on from Adam) and Noonian?
cheers,
Gabe
nah it's just an unoffical rule of trek that people often look strikingly like their ancestors.
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nah it's just an unoffical rule of trek that people often look strikingly like their ancestors.
OK, then what's the connection between Kore, Data's "Daughter" painting, and the androids (Jana/Sutra and Dahj/Soji) who bear Kore's likeness? Again, this is something that COULD have been explored more in PIC S2.
This is total fanwank, but here's a suggestion. It has to do with Kore's new job at the end of the season.
In an ultimate ironic twist, Kore is tasked with being the Supervisor for the succeeding generations of Soong men and their android creations, to ensure that Data will be created. Though she mostly stays in the shadows, she interacts with them sparingly, like Tallinn did with Renee Picard, and makes enough of an impression that her likeness becomes part of the Soong lineage's "cultural memory", being programmed by Noonian Soong into Data's positronic net as an unconscious, dreamlike figure, and inspiring Altan Soong to create his most lifelike synths with that likeness.
Works as well as anything else IMO.
cheers,
Gabe
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Gazelle Automations, the Toronto-based animation and production company who produced a clip of what TNG would look like done in the style of TAS, is at it again!
This time, they've taken the climax of "Threshold", from ST:VOY--you know, the one where Tom Paris begins mutating into a salamander after breaking the transwarp barrier--and redone that in TAS style!
Check out the result here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luEDui2zAUw
Here's what company founder Justin Lee had to say about why he selected this particular excerpt:
Since Voyager comes from a similar era of Trek to TNG, I thought it’d be fun to again “translate” that world into the TAS style. As for the excerpt I chose, I went through lists of episodes over and over for ages until I decided on “Threshold”. To me, there’s something TAS-y about crew members turning into salamanders (“The Ambergris Element” comes to mind). And to address the obvious, I did choose what’s considered to be a terrible episode of Trek, just to see how it would work as a Saturday morning cartoon.
:toofunny:
cheers,
Gabe
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I saw that and Threshold is absolutely the perfect clip to animate. I'm leaning towards Move along home for the (hopefully) inevitable DS9 video...
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I like that cartoon. Can't wait for the DS9 version
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I like that cartoon. Can't wait for the DS9 version
Hopefully it'll be something from "Our Man Bashir".
cheers,
Gabe
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Hopefully it'll be something from "Our Man Bashir".
cheers,
Gabe
More Tribbles, more troubles
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More Tribbles, more troubles
Uh, that was the Animated Series episode...you're thinking of "Trials and Tribble-ations".
cheers,
Gabe
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Hmmm...am I actually thinking of giving up on SNW?
Not that the last episode was terrible, not at all. But I really thought this series was supposed to be about the unsung characters and their stories, especially Pike and Una/Number One. Instead, it's about Spock, and they're using it as a bridge to TOS (and the TOS movies now!), taking the Enterprise S4 approach. Especially, there's too much of T'Pring; she and her relationship with Spock were such enigmas in TOS, but it's now we know too much.
OTOH, Vulcan words sound lovely when pronounced with an Indic accent. Nice touch there by Gia Sandhu.
cheers,
Gabe
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We've had strong episodes about several of the main crews, don't really see what you're complaining about.
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All the Spock episodes are about Tpring. Please dont get me wrong she is a great actress but she seems more human than a normal vulcan.
The thing I don't like is all thw love and awesome for Hammer the engineer and he has been missing in the last 2 episodes, even a big shot in Green screen engineering with Chapel and Spock and no chief engineer.
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Why does he need to be in every episode?
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We've had strong episodes about several of the main crews, don't really see what you're complaining about.
When you only have 10 episodes in a series and a raft of new and/or underdeveloped characters (e.g. Uhura) to flesh out, spending 3 of those episodes delving into the personal life of one of the best-known characters in the franchise kind of defeats the purported aim of the series--unless that was all misdirection to begin with.
Speaking of which, when is Ortegas going to get any love beyond her library of one-liners?
cheers,
Gabe
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Another thing about that last episode...
When the pirate revealed their true identity and their persona changed, I got the sense there was something familiar about it, like I had seen that shtick before, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I rewatched that scene a couple more times, and then it hit me: Jesse James Keitel was basically playing Captain Angel as an Americanized evil version of Jodie Whittaker's Doctor Who. Anyone else agree?
(They even wear an ear ornament in about the same position!)
And Una again shows why she's known as "Where Fun Goes To Die". Pike should declare a ship-wide Talk Like A Pirate Day and offer to promote any ensigns or lieutenant JGs who speak Pirate in Una's presence for more than two minutes. :D
cheers,
Gabe
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When you only have 10 episodes in a series and a raft of new and/or underdeveloped characters (e.g. Uhura) to flesh out, spending 3 of those episodes delving into the personal life of one of the best-known characters in the franchise kind of defeats the purported aim of the series--unless that was all misdirection to begin with.
Speaking of which, when is Ortegas going to get any love beyond her library of one-liners?
cheers,
Gabe
Thing is, you kind of have to expect that with any spin-off series, but especially one that's also a tribute to something fans have been wanting in one form or another since the 1980s, and the other half of that, is that it's EASIER to riff on Spock-there's literally decades of material to draw from. The Newbie characters don't have that, nor do the characters that only existed for the failed pilot like "Number One" or Pike himself in TOS (though Pike got a season on Discovery, at least...)
So there's that. There's the weight of Spock's 'future' backstory for nostalgia points.
Third, is that it's hard to develop new characters that have their own 'voice' in an established setting with established characters, on a brand-new show, while dealing with the fractured work-rules caused by...well, a massive externality that screwed with production and limited your first season to 10 episodes when you probably planned 13-15 originally, and there's now no guarantee that the budget that was approved, will actually pay the bills thanks to ANOTHER externality that's ongoing across both north american nations.
Upshot is, yeah, they're going to cut some corners to establish themselves first. We saw it with Stargate: Atlantis, we saw it with DS9, Voyager, and even with Enterprise.
Just relax, give'm a break, they're doing a good job for once, so ENJOY IT and pray they don't get a corporate hair up their ass and end up jumping the shark. Right now, SNW is delivering the goods in a way we haven't seen since late seasons of DS9 or the better seasons of TNG. The drama feels dramatic, the humour feels humorous, there's a notable lack of screwing with physical plot to excessive degrees, and they must've hired an actual science-fiction writer to consult with their writing room, because even the fights don't trigger a cringe reaction.
so enjoy what we're getting until it actually starts to suck-because it might not get to the point of actually sucking.
It might (GASP!!) actually stay good. cling to that.
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There are only 10 episodes so it is really hard to get to everyone. I hope they showcase others. Ortegas would be nice because her one liners are getting tiresome and not the greatest at comic relief. The guest of the week has had more lines than her whole series.
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Watch a professional MMA fighter analyze the Kirk vs. Gorn fight:
https://boingboing.net/2022/06/22/mma-fighter-gorns-fighting-style-from-star-trek-is-legit.html/amp (https://boingboing.net/2022/06/22/mma-fighter-gorns-fighting-style-from-star-trek-is-legit.html/amp)
Cheers,
Gabe
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There are only 10 episodes so it is really hard to get to everyone. I hope they showcase others. Ortegas would be nice because her one liners are getting tiresome and not the greatest at comic relief. The guest of the week has had more lines than her whole series.
The issue might be:
Ortegas gets away with what she gets away with, because she's so good at her job that she's literally too much trouble to replace-and that's a hard one to manage the writing for without making them a caricature. you don't actually NEED a lot of dialogue with that sort, you just let them snap the one-liners and do their job, and that can actually handle it for you.
IOW "Sometimes less really IS more."
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So the fantasy book Dr. M'Benga has been reading to his daughter was written by Benny Russell...
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So the fantasy book Dr. M'Benga has been reading to his daughter was written by Benny Russell...
A nice little easter egg.
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And Otegas and Hammer had more prominent roles in this one
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And Otegas and Hammer had more prominent roles in this one
*claps* Sometimes, Mirror Universe/The cast does something pearshaped episodes are often painful.... Not, today. I'm very emotional right now...
But hmm... His kid is now, safe (relatively speaking) but is there still gonna be a reckoning because he has his daughter spending assets & time, as i speculated from the end results from first episodes of this season?
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Realistically there should be but this is Star Trek. Wouldn't be the first time doing the wrong thing for the right reason was quietly swept under the carpet and the offender not punished.
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Realistically there should be but this is Star Trek. Wouldn't be the first time doing the wrong thing for the right reason was quietly swept under the carpet and the offender not punished.
Well there has to be SOMETHING that impedes M'Benga's further promotion and results in him giving way to McCoy as the Enterprise's CMO.
More pressing, I think, is the issue with Number One being an Illyrian in Starfleet, since the Federation seems to want nothing to do with them and her mere presence on the Enterprise could be spun all sorts of unpleasant ways (e.g., she's a Trojan Horse/spy). Have to see if they wrap this up over the final two episodes or if it plays out over subsequent seasons.
cheers,
Gabe
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Maybe I've just grown cynical in my old age but the ending to this last SNW episode bordered right on the edge of horrific for me. The nebula brain had already demonstrated that it could create living matter with all the plants and (perhaps) La'an's dog - how does M'Benga know that the grown up version of his daughter is actually his daughter? What if she was just a construct to convince M'Benga that everything is ok now, you can move along, when the actual truth is nebula brain just ate his daughter?
It reminded me in a way of the last season of Capaldi's run in Doctor Who with companion Bill's ultimate fate. But with SNW it lacked the setup necessary to keep the payoff from being potentially too creepy.
YMMV, of course. Still liking the series overall.
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Yeah, it's definitely one where the implications go beyond what the writers had put in and they aren't always great. The one a couple of weeks ago that riffed on Those Who Walked Away From Omelas was in a similar place.
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Is the nebula-ism something new (or has there been something simular depicted in any previous ST serial?).
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There was something not too disimilar in a TNG episode but I can't remember the name off the top of my head.
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There was something not too disimilar in a TNG episode but I can't remember the name off the top of my head.
Are you thinking of " Where Silence Has Lease"? That was a bit different in that it was basically a giant alien in the void testing the crew, whereas in this case it's the nebula itself that has become sentient and is manipulating the crew by forcing them to LARP, in a manner similar to "Our Man Bashir". The key differences here are that the nebula entity didn't appear to be malevolent and the crew weren't actually at risk of being killed.
Cheers,
Gabe
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he might be thinking of TNG s7ep17 "Masks" (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Masks_(episode)) where an ancient Alien Archive takes over the ship and Data and makes them play out an old changing of seasons ritual fr.
or DS9 s1ep18 "Dramatis Personae" (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Dramatis_Personae_(episode)) where telepathic memory files possess the crew and force the DS9 staff to re-enact the power struggles that once existed on an alien world.
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No on all counts.
There was an episode where Picard became disembodied and they had to re-integrate him via transporter. My memory recalls there was a nebula full of personalities in the episode as well. But hell if I can remember which season/episode it was now.
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No on all counts.
There was an episode where Picard became disembodied and they had to re-integrate him via transporter. My memory recalls there was a nebula full of personalities in the episode as well. But hell if I can remember which season/episode it was now.
I remember that one, and I found it in the Season 1 episodes - it was called "Lonely Among Us". The episode featured an entity they picked up in nebula, that transferred itself between different crew members and the computer, eventually ending up in Picard, who ordered the ship back to the nebula and beamed over with it. Troi detected his consciousness, and they were able to beam him back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonely_Among_Us
Maybe I've just grown cynical in my old age but the ending to this last SNW episode bordered right on the edge of horrific for me. The nebula brain had already demonstrated that it could create living matter with all the plants and (perhaps) La'an's dog - how does M'Benga know that the grown up version of his daughter is actually his daughter? What if she was just a construct to convince M'Benga that everything is ok now, you can move along, when the actual truth is nebula brain just ate his daughter?
I took it that the Boltzman Brain could either rewrite reality within the boundaries of the nebula to sufficient degree to create the trappings of the book or, perhaps more likely, could create holographic-style effects. I don't recall whether La'an's dog was able to be scanned by the medical tricorder, which could help tip the evidence as to which it could do one way or another.
Looking at it from the perspective of the episode writers, the scene with an adult Rukiya returning was to give M'Benga some sense of closure, that while his choice may have not been what he wanted, he at least gave his daughter more of a life than she otherwise would have had. That she refers to the entity separately (as "Debra") was meant to show that they're two separate beings, even if they share a physical "substrate", so to speak.
I think of this episode's ending as being in the same tradition as, say, Decker and Ilyria in ST:TMP, or Cochrane and the Companion in TOS, or even Sisko joining the Prophets.
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Just finished SNW S1 Ep 9, "All Those Who Wander", and all I can say is it's another kick in the feels at the end.
Well, that, and it's also a great homage to the Aliens and Predator franchies, while still feeling like a Trek episode.
I expect there's gonna be a lot of Gorn speculation but, all I can say right now is, "Noooo, Hemmer!"
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Ok... yeah, the feels took a critical hit...
Now normally when an actor leaves a show on good terms, they get killed off in a manner that lets them work their chops til the end... Did both actors who are leaving (Horak and Chong) leaving by desire, planned ahead/agreed to contract terms or other?
In the wiki, the Peregrine is called a sister ship. Is it a Conny? Is it a Asia (a apparent non-cannon sub class or Pre-Conny's refit aka a way to explain why the Constellation was NCC-1017, etc... Ref: https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ aka Bernd's ST site :D )?
otherwise an excellent episode (certainly good enough to send me into a rage as i hammer my thoughts out...)
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Horak knew from the audition that he would go out in the season in a big way. It's in an short interview on syfy-wire (won't post link as the spoilers don't mask the url well and it contains a spoiler).
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Ok... yeah, the feels took a critical hit...
Now normally when an actor leaves a show on good terms, they get killed off in a manner that lets them work their chops til the end... Did both actors who are leaving (Horak and Chong) leaving by desire, planned ahead/agreed to contract terms or other?
Chong has already livestreamed from the set of Season 2, where they've been filming, and she's been a part of it. So, she'll be back.
In the wiki, the Peregrine is called a sister ship. Is it a Conny? Is it a Asia (a apparent non-cannon sub class or Pre-Conny's refit aka a way to explain why the Constellation was NCC-1017, etc... Ref: https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ aka Bernd's ST site :D )?
otherwise an excellent episode (certainly good enough to send me into a rage as i hammer my thoughts out...)
They described the Peregrine as a Sombra-class starship, which M'Benga had noted had been built with a lot of Constitution class parts, and was described as being "very fast", with a smaller 100-person crew, compared to the 200 aboard the Enterprise at the moment.
I'd wager she probably emphasizes speed over firepower when compared to the Constitution class, but is still based on the same hull, just swapping weaponry for sensors and scientific instruments. Given she was mapping space outside of Federation territory, she may be something equivalent to a galactic survey cruiser from Starfleet Battles.
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did they have a registry shown? could they be trying to stealth correct the Constellation NCC-1017 issue? if you have a sister class sharing most of the same hull, you could quietly just state the Constellation was part of that class, rather than a connie.
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No registry was shown, though that’s certainly a possibility, similar to how SFB had the Republic class as an earlier ship that got refit to Constitution standards, but had lower NCC numbers like the Constellation.
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memory alpha is claiming NCC-1549... but has no citation as for wherethey got that. given their page for the USS Archer article had an erroneous class designation as a saladin due to fans jumping the gun, i don't trust it.
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No registry was shown, though that’s certainly a possibility, similar to how SFB had the Republic class as an earlier ship that got refit to Constitution standards but had lower NCC numbers like the Constellation.
It was shown but the imagine was both viewed at an angle and blurred. It was on the screen that Pike moved towards at the end of the scene...
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memory alpha is claiming NCC-1549... but has no citation as for wherethey got that. given their page for the USS Archer article had an erroneous class designation as a saladin due to fans jumping the gun, i don't trust it.
That number is right. In the mission briefing in Pike's quarters La'An is reading a padd with the mission briefing on it. She scrolls down and at one brief point you can see the USS Peregrine's name and registry. Another shot in Sickbay when they're talking about how to bait, trap, & kill to the two hatchlings La'An pulls up an environmental control view of the ship and it's in the top left corner
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The 9th episode was awesome like a real kick to it
Honestly one of the things I love is they made Pike a cook, I want a crossover/bake off between him and Sisko, seriously the scenes of the together at Pikes just brings back all the great memories from DS9s party pieces great idea
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And he has a fireplace in his quarters.
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Just finished SNW S1 Ep 9, "All Those Who Wander", and all I can say is it's another kick in the feels at the end.
Well, that, and it's also a great homage to the Aliens and Predator franchies, while still feeling like a Trek episode.
I expect there's gonna be a lot of Gorn speculation but, all I can say right now is, "Noooo, Hemmer!"
I was upset by the ending also. We really barley knew him, and he was missing in many episodes. Too bad, I just hope they don't bring in Scotty. Nothing against SNW just don't need all the characters from TOS. Just MHO.
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The 9th episode was awesome like a real kick to it
Honestly one of the things I love is they made Pike a cook, I want a crossover/bake off between him and Sisko, seriously the scenes of the together at Pikes just brings back all the great memories from DS9s party pieces great idea
You could include Riker in the competition as well.
Ruger
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I was upset by the ending also. We really barley knew him, and he was missing in many episodes. Too bad, I just hope they don't bring in Scotty. Nothing against SNW just don't need all the characters from TOS. Just MHO.
Yes, it makes it debatable whether he was really a main character. Too bad, because I was going to say that icing (literally in this case) a main character in the penultimate episode of the season is such a GoT kind of thing to do!
cheers,
Gabe
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curse words. curse words. moar curse words. The season finale... was so well done, the clues passed by, with no ABILITY to even see them happen... curse words. :bang: :flame:
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Honestly one of the things I love is they made Pike a cook, I want a crossover/bake off between him and Sisko, seriously the scenes of the together at Pikes just brings back all the great memories from DS9s party pieces great idea
You could include Riker in the competition as well.
I was going to say, you don't want to shove Riker in there in the end do you?
Hell, we did get Shatner!Kirk in an apron in Generations!
And he has a fireplace in his quarters.
Man you can't get more Space Caveman than that...
Anyways, while I've sat out the latest Live Action, looks like it's once again time for everyone's favorite Junior Officers...
LOWER DECKS, LOWER DECKS!!!
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curse words. curse words. moar curse words. The season finale... was so well done, the clues passed by, with no ABILITY to even see them happen... curse words. :bang: :flame:
Yeah, that one's going to require a second watch-through sometime soon... right after a rewatch of TOS 'Balance of Power' so more of the references leap out at me. (not that I'm complaining, since that's my favorite TOS episode anyway.)
It's funny, Discovery has always been hit-or-miss to me, good when they let its cast carry it and bad when they make that cast do nothing more than bow to the excellence of Michael Burnham over and over. (So the past two seasons have been... rough). I worried what SNW would be like with that in mind, and I needn't have worried a bit- it had its ups and downs, like any show, but overall they knocked this thing out of the park- very happy with it in-general, looking forward to seeing where they go with it in the future.
...meanwhile, The Orville, for those who are fans, has been a joy as well. Their main misstep, really, has been leaning very heavily on past plotlines (the infiltration of the Krill ship in the first season and the reverse in the second season, the events of the Kalon war, etc.)- not a problem for a show picking up where it left off the prior season normally, but after three years-ish (and a LONG three years, you'll agree), those plot points were a little fuzzy- if you're waiting for the season to end to do a binge, start now by going back through the first two seasons- you'll be happy you did. Worth it, too- it's fun to see it turn from Trek-spoof early on to slowly becoming a better Trek show than most of the actual Trek shows after a while (still keeping an air of that warped sense of humor it started with).
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Yeah I picked up where they were going with that pretty quick actually.
All in all SNW has been very Trek to me, in a way ST:D never was. If you're not intent on hating it or prejudging it it is actually really good.
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Yeah I picked up where they were going with that pretty quick actually.
All in all SNW has been very Trek to me, in a way ST:D never was. If you're not intent on hating it or prejudging it it is actually really good.
as someone who was EXTREMELY skeptical about it, I can attest that Monbvol is right on the money here. SNW is probably the best small-screen Trek to happen in the last 30 years. (Unlike, in every practical way, that other show I won't mention by name.)
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Need to go watch "Balance of terror" and see how the Kirk method worked there. But a great episode and a good way to both revisit that episode and show Pike the consequences of his actions.
And nice to see that actions have consequences with regards to Una.
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Yeah I picked up where they were going with that pretty quick actually.
All in all SNW has been very Trek to me, in a way ST:D never was. If you're not intent on hating it or prejudging it it is actually really good.
I have felt that STD is a show heavy on emotions & character development with a little bit of Star Trek flavoring added on top. Whereas SNW has had your sterotypical Star Trek episode that happen to also have emotional & character development.
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That was a pretty good season ending episode. Its a "Yesterdays Enterprise" of SNW. A whole episode where nothing changes in the end, but a good look at what it could be.
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Yeah, that one's going to require a second watch-through sometime soon... right after a rewatch of TOS 'Balance of Power' so more of the references leap out at me. (not that I'm complaining, since that's my favorite TOS episode anyway.)
So did you? I did, and it made me appreciate the SNW season finale LESS, not more. I'm now having a hard time seeing it as anything other than blatant fan service and writers' hero worship of "Balance of Terror",
right down to the verbatim-lifted dialogue and even the lighting. There were quite a few differences on the Romulan side though, mostly to keep up with all the accumulated background on the Romulans that obviously didn't exist in 1966, like how they went with the TNG-era raised-brow-ridge look (for starters). There was one small thing that I did like in all that: the Romulan commander's end speech, despite being practically identical to the "BoT" one, lands totally differently, especially when he says "I have accepted my fate" to Pike, who's being put through this whole exercise because he's trying to AVOID his fate. (Something almost Q-like about that, actually...)
And about Paul Wesley...IMO, Ethan Peck has largely succeeded in making the role of Spock his own without resorting to Leonard Nimoy impressions. Wesley is just...not Jim Kirk. I'm not saying he had to do a Shatner impression, but there was just nothing about his performance here that conveyed the qualities of Jim Kirk, except maybe his tactical acumen. None of the physical presence or charisma. If this is how he's going to play it in season 2...well, let's just say I hope they don't overuse him. (Trouble is, the Kirk/Spock bromance has to get started somewhere...)
And why was Sam Kirk still on the Enterprise in the alt-2266? He should've already been retired to civilian life (where he meets his own grisly fate in "Operation: Annihilate!"). Pretty much everything he's shown so far seems to indicate he's just not Starfleet material.
(Since there are now two Kirks to consider, I propose "JTK" for Jim and "GSK" for Sam. Any takers?)
So what was there to like? Well...the visual effects were excellent. Can't say I cared much for the design of the Farragut though. Not a fan of the curved nacelle pylons, too Kelvinverse for my taste. A lot of people have been saying it's like a proto-Miranda-class, but I actually thought it looked more like the Cerritos.
And speaking of the Cerritos...that ending was pretty much the same as that of Lower Decks S2, wasn't it? The key difference being that Carol Freeman was framed and nobody knows who did it, whereas Una knows exactly what's she's being arrested for and that it's a situation of her own making. Only questions are who outed her and why.
cheers,
Gabe
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I thought the Farragut was a Constitution Class ship
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I thought the Farragut was a Constitution Class ship
it was never actually stated in dialog what the class was when it was mentioned in TOS, Fans just tended to assume. much like the whole "romulans didn't have warp drive" thing, or the "spock was the first vulcan in star fleet" thing. (Also the "the ten registries from TOS 'court marshal' were all constitution class ships" myth. A lot of fan assumptions dating back to the TOS and early TNG days when we just didn't have much info to work with have proven to be very persistent even in light of newer information. People still insist romulans didn't have warp drive in the earth romulan war and TOS, despite ENT showing they had warp and even more advanced warp tech than earth.)
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So did you? I did, and it made me appreciate the SNW season finale LESS, not more. I'm now having a hard time seeing it as anything other than blatant fan service and writers' hero worship of "Balance of Terror",
And why was Sam Kirk still on the Enterprise in the alt-2266? He should've already been retired to civilian life (where he meets his own grisly fate in "Operation: Annihilate!"). Pretty much everything he's shown so far seems to indicate he's just not Starfleet material.
cheers,
Gabe
I'm wondering if Pike's fate may be the final straw for Sam, which encourages him to retire. Seeing something like that in a training simulator might be enough for some folks.
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I loved the last episode, I've started re-watching the whole series already because I've loved every episode for the first time in a long time.
I hated the last twenty-thirty seconds (not including credits)
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I thought the Romulans had warp drive, but less advanced and not as fast as Federation ships. Which gave the Federation an advantage while the Romulans had the firepower.
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I thought the Romulans had warp drive, but less advanced and not as fast as Federation ships. Which gave the Federation an advantage while the Romulans had the firepower.
there was a referance in the original episode of the Warbird using simple impulse power only, there's been a looot of over analsys of that line over the years.
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All of which is now moot since SNW just showed said warbird using a quantum singularity core and we see a fleet of warp capable ships.
Though honestly, the idea that the ENT era ships might be using some sort of enhanced fusion powerplant for their warp drives could be interesting.
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All of which is now moot since SNW just showed said warbird using a quantum singularity core and we see a fleet of warp capable ships.
Though honestly, the idea that the ENT era ships might be using some sort of enhanced fusion powerplant for their warp drives could be interesting.
I've always assumed TBH that the issue was that with the NCC 1701 tracking the romulan ship the romulan simply couldn't use the full warp without risking making himself detectable.
even in DS9 we're told that going too high a warp speed will make it easier to detect a ship, and one can only assume romulan cloaking tech went a long way in the 100 years between
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I'm just curious what lead to change in the timeline. I've not had a change to watch the series yet.
A new Romulan War with the Federation in Pike's time seems be way out of left field to me. The old history doesn't show a war this recent. The Federation didn't really have a clue for bit what Romulans looked like during the original War. Heck, Vulcans don't even like talking about their cousins. Spock had said with their meeting with Kirk, he mentioned them in speculation verses knowing fully they were early Vulcan off-shoots.
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A quick breakdown:
TOS Spock in Balance of Terror quite clearly states in the original human romulan war that neither side had warp drive.
ENT retcons this as frankly TOS writers clearly did not understand how close to impossible it would be to fight an interstellar conflict without FTL capability.
Pike in the Season finale of SNW restarts the war by trying to play nice and the Romulans seeing this as weakness and deciding to pounce.
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I'm just curious what lead to change in the timeline. I've not had a change to watch the series yet.
A new Romulan War with the Federation in Pike's time seems be way out of left field to me. The old history doesn't show a war this recent. The Federation didn't really have a clue for bit what Romulans looked like during the original War. Heck, Vulcans don't even like talking about their cousins. Spock had said with their meeting with Kirk, he mentioned them in speculation verses knowing fully they were early Vulcan off-shoots.
It’s not Pike’s time. It’s Kirk’s time, but because Pike didn’t fall victim to radiation poisoning, he remained in command during what was originally Kirk’s “Balance of Terror”.
As mentioned by both crews in that show, if the Romulans were able to return to their Empire, it would mean war as they would have proven the Federation was weak and vulnerable. Because Pike attempts negotiation instead of a more militant solution, the Romulans deemed the Federation to be ripe for attack.
Ruger
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It’s not Pike’s time. It’s Kirk’s time, but because Pike didn’t fall victim to radiation poisoning, he remained in command during what was originally Kirk’s “Balance of Terror”.
As mentioned by both crews in that show, if the Romulans were able to return to their Empire, it would mean war as they would have proven the Federation was weak and vulnerable. Because Pike attempts negotiation instead of a more militant solution, the Romulans deemed the Federation to be ripe for attack.
Ruger
So, that suggests with the Klingon Travel crystal thing, is that perhaps the end of the series will be with Pike going back and deliberately getting poisoned to correct history possible.
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A quick breakdown:
TOS Spock in Balance of Terror quite clearly states in the original human romulan war that neither side had warp drive.
ENT retcons this as frankly TOS writers clearly did not understand how close to impossible it would be to fight an interstellar conflict without FTL capability.
Pike in the Season finale of SNW restarts the war by trying to play nice and the Romulans seeing this as weakness and deciding to pounce.
I can find nothing in the transcript for “Balance of Terror” that supports the conclusion that neither side had warp during the Earth-Romulan War:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/9.htm
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Its always a chess game with the Romulans. Get into a fight, not get into a fight, prove strength, don't prove strength, be the aggressor but don't be too aggressive. Pike was a little more friendly with the Romulans but he is a member of Starfleet. Starfleet was always slow to react, adapt and overcome. The Romulans were ready for a fight, Starfleet is never ready for a fight.
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I can find nothing in the transcript for “Balance of Terror” that supports the conclusion that neither side had warp during the Earth-Romulan War:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/9.htm
From the wikis, the war was fought a 100 years before this event with Enterprise and Farragut.
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From the wikis, the war was fought a 100 years before this event with Enterprise and Farragut.
Which would have been in the 2160s, and doesn’t support the idea that Earth lacked warp drive, either.
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the TOS episode just said it had been fought, per spock: "By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels "
which honestly sums up the bulk of the Earth Starfleet in ENT, which were limited to Plasma cannons and Spatial Torpdoes, both of which could easily be classed as "atomic weapons" (Spatial torpedoes most likely packing a form of thermonuclear warhead), though Phase Cannons apparently were becoming more common by season 3 (but they could be counted as atomic weapons in a sense being particle beams), and only the really high end ships like the NX class had antimatter warhead photonic torps.
the novels took this tack, with the NX (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/NX_class) and NV (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Intrepid_type) classes being too high tech to produce enough of so the earth starfleet reverted back to an older ship class, the Daedalus class (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Daedalus_class), which could be built much much faster and use a lot less resources per ship, though they crammed in whatever newer tech they could over time. so the war's daedalus class packed phase cannons, but only special torpedos.
and by the standards of TOS and the constitution class, the earth warships with no shields, no human rated transporters, no food synthesizers; relying on charged armor plating for defense and moving around using (mostly) warp 3 to warp 4 level drives.. are pretty primitive.
(the andorians, vulcans, and tellarites had to stay out of the war initially due to the romulans having the ability to infect their ships with computer viruses that allowed them to disable or even hijack them. so the other members of the coalition of planets pulled their stuff back to to their own worlds and let human ships do most of the fighting, since human ships were too primitive for the romulan viruses to work properly.. and they quickly developed 'sidegrades' which make them pretty much immune. sort of implied to be through the use of analog systems in places, with the descriptions sounding a lot like some of the TOS hardware visuals)
honestly, i really suggest reading those books, they and the follow on ones about the beginning of the federation and starfleet make for some fun reading, and what i wish that ENT had been doing all along.
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(the andorians, vulcans, and tellarites had to stay out of the war initially due to the romulans having the ability to infect their ships with computer viruses that allowed them to disable or even hijack them. so the other members of the coalition of planets pulled their stuff back to to their own worlds and let human ships do most of the fighting, since human ships were too primitive for the romulan viruses to work properly.. and they quickly developed 'sidegrades' which make them pretty much immune. sort of implied to be through the use of analog systems in places, with the descriptions sounding a lot like some of the TOS hardware visuals)
Sounds like someone was watching Battlestar Galactica 2003...
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It’s not Pike’s time. It’s Kirk’s time, but because Pike didn’t fall victim to radiation poisoning, he remained in command during what was originally Kirk’s “Balance of Terror”.
As mentioned by both crews in that show, if the Romulans were able to return to their Empire, it would mean war as they would have proven the Federation was weak and vulnerable. Because Pike attempts negotiation instead of a more militant solution, the Romulans deemed the Federation to be ripe for attack.
Ruger
He doesn't fall victim to radiation poisoning BECAUSE he remains in command. By choosing to inform the outpost commander's son--who will become one of the cadets who dies in the training accident, and presumably all the other future cadets as well--about the future, he sets in motion a chain of events that will ensure he remains on the Enterprise. Presumably this also means finagling his way out of promotions and reassignments.
You also have to accept the conceit that the actual alt-2266 Pike would continue to have the naïveté of 2259 Pike (who basically "quantum-leaped" into his own future body) regarding the Romulans. Pretty much every other major character (except maybe M'Benga) had a better read on the Romulans than Pike did. Would the actual 2266 Pike,with another 7 years of experience under his belt, still opt for negotiating first?
Also, since Pike retains his memories of the alternate timeline, he is now the only Starfleet officer who knows what Romulans look like and about their cloaking and plasma weapon technologies. Not to mention that he can also start paving the way for JTK to succeed him as captain of the Enterprise.
Cheers,
Gabe
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Sounds like someone was watching Battlestar Galactica 2003...
there were definitely elements in common. and the books did come out about 6 years after the BSG reboot. but the romulans used it a bit differently. during the lead up for to the war they used it to conduct a campaign of terror and deception. they'd ambush single ships or small groups, use the virus to take control of the ships, shut down the lifesupport (or even open the airlocks), then once the crew is dead, they'd put romulan crews aboard and use those ships to conduct false flag attacks. in fact the kobiyashi maru scenario was based on an ambush of the NX enterprise where captured klingon D-5 cruisers were employed, as part of an attempt to trigger a war between earth and the klingon empire. they tried to use a version of the virus on the Enterprise but the ship fought it off just long enough to escape. they also had been capturing vulcan ships (which were more vulnerable in the post-reform political and military situation) and used that small fleet of ships to conduct very high profile attacks on earth's colonies. etc.
once the war started in earnest they did use it in battle ala BSG, to disable enemy ships.. but only a few times before the earth ships learned to prevent it, and the other races started staying out of the war.
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Lower Decks series 3 starts on August 25th
https://intl.startrek.com/news/star-trek-lower-decks-returns-season-three
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Lower Decks series 3 starts on August 25th
https://intl.startrek.com/news/star-trek-lower-decks-returns-season-three
*emote: Happy Dance!*
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*emote: Happy Dance!*
(https://y.yarn.co/60897d13-be5a-4d7e-8d4b-f2ff3236535b_text.gif)
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I haven't really watched TOS episodes since I was about 10, so it's been nearly 23 years. So honestly, I had ZERO recollection that this was an alternate re-hash of a TOS episode, until near the end.
"I regret that we meet in this way. You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend." Struck one of those "Wait a second...I have definitely heard this before, and in a Trek context..." and I had to look it up, and realized I HAD heard it before...just something like 23-25 years ago. Weird that it stuck with me that long, just buried.
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so exited, can't wait to see what they'll be doing with the story!!
(https://c.tenor.com/IMJBjci9gTgAAAAC/star-trek-lower-decks.gif)
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If i were betting man, I'd think that by end of ST:SNW that they'll undo everything in the Series to allow Kirk to become captain of Enterprise.
Personally, I rather have it be its own thing. I do find Pike right now great character in this altered timeline. While Kirk is another doing his historical deeds. If Marvel universe can have alternates live side by side, why can't Trek?
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If i were betting man, I'd think that by end of ST:SNW that they'll undo everything in the Series to allow Kirk to become captain of Enterprise.
Personally, I rather have it be its own thing. I do find Pike right now great character in this altered timeline. While Kirk is another doing his historical deeds. If Marvel universe can have alternates live side by side, why can't Trek?
given it is a prequel, they don't have to undo anything? if anything the season finale laid the groundwork for why Pike chose Kirk to replace him when Pike takes promotion off the enterprise. the alt-timeline we see is one where pike refuses promotion and stays on the Enterprise, in an effort to prevent his crippling accident. only to cause a timeline where he survives but things are worse for everyone. causing him to go back and convince his past self to not do that, and in the process Pike gets to meet Kirk and get his measure, enough to know that kirk would be a good fit as his replacement on the Enterprise.
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given it is a prequel, they don't have to undo anything? if anything the season finale laid the groundwork for why Pike chose Kirk to replace him when Pike takes promotion off the enterprise. the alt-timeline we see is one where pike refuses promotion and stays on the Enterprise, in an effort to prevent his crippling accident. only to cause a timeline where he survives but things are worse for everyone. causing him to go back and convince his past self to not do that, and in the process Pike gets to meet Kirk and get his measure, enough to know that kirk would be a good fit as his replacement on the Enterprise.
Forgive me if I sound clueless (I am, I've only seen bits & pieces of the show.) Are you saying Episode 10 is Pike's experiences while using the time crystal?
From my limited understanding is that A) Kirk should not be a Captain while Pike commanding Enterprise. As far I'm aware, Enterprise was Kirk's first command as a Captain. (Farragut maybe a "commander rank" command, thus Captain just title given if your in charge vs rank. However, were getting into murky grounds what Kirk was up to before coming to command Enterprise.) The war with Romulans never happened while Pike or Kirk were in service, Kirk was one who made first contact in the first place. It was suppose to happen right when episode 10 happen. Thus why I say he may need go back unless whole episode is bloody alternate time line.
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Forgive me if I sound clueless (I am, I've only seen bits & pieces of the show.) Are you saying Episode 10 is Pike's experiences while using the time crystal?
From my limited understanding is that A) Kirk should not be a Captain while Pike commanding Enterprise. As far I'm aware, Enterprise was Kirk's first command as a Captain. (Farragut maybe a "commander rank" command, thus Captain just title given if your in charge vs rank. However, were getting into murky grounds what Kirk was up to before coming to command Enterprise.) The war with Romulans never happened while Pike or Kirk were in service, Kirk was one who made first contact in the first place. It was suppose to happen right when episode 10 happen. Thus why I say he may need go back unless whole episode is bloody alternate time line.
Well, consider the timeframes. Kirk being a Captain, on another ship, seems likely if Pike's still in charge of Enterprise, because you don't stop getting promoted just because some other dude stuck around. Starfleet isn't a feudal monarchy, it's a professional service. Thus, that part can be simply a matter of whether Jim Kirk was assigned a different ship (seems likely).
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Forgive me if I sound clueless (I am, I've only seen bits & pieces of the show.) Are you saying Episode 10 is Pike's experiences while using the time crystal?
From my limited understanding is that A) Kirk should not be a Captain while Pike commanding Enterprise. As far I'm aware, Enterprise was Kirk's first command as a Captain. (Farragut maybe a "commander rank" command, thus Captain just title given if your in charge vs rank. However, were getting into murky grounds what Kirk was up to before coming to command Enterprise.) The war with Romulans never happened while Pike or Kirk were in service, Kirk was one who made first contact in the first place. It was suppose to happen right when episode 10 happen. Thus why I say he may need go back unless whole episode is bloody alternate time line.
Yes, nearly the whole episode is indeed an alternate future that Pike from 2259 experiences through the time crystal. In this future, it is 2266, not 2259 anymore. Pike is still in command of the Enterprise. JTK has been promoted to captain, but of the Farragut, the same ship on which he served as a lieutenant--a far less prestigious command than the fleet flagship. In the main TOS timeline, the war with the Romulans never happened because JTK, in command of the Enterprise, opted to hunt down the Bird-of-Prey rather than let it return to Romulan space or alert the remainder of the Romulan fleet. In the alternate timeline with Pike in command, Pike's attempt to negotiate with the Romulan commander--however well-intentioned--gives the latter's well-connected subordinate time to send a message to Romulus that the Federation will not avenge its destroyed outposts and is thus ripe for attack, leading to the start of a war that lasts into at least the 2280s. The alternate timeline is undone when Pike returns to 2259 and scraps the letter he was writing warning the future cadet of the impending training accident, sealing the fates of all involved. However, because Pike retains all his memories of the experience, he has gotten to know JTK both as a commander and somewhat as a person, enabling him to begin laying the groundwork for JTK's eventual ascension to command of the Enterprise. Think about it...why and how did JTK gain command of the Enterprise in the first place?
cheers,
Gabe
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also, the idea that the enterprise was Kirk's first command is fan-canon.. its never been said on screen whether he'd commanded aother ship before, and Roddenberry back in 1967 said that he envisioned Kirk having commanded a ship before the Enterprise, just a smaller ones. (he used the term "destroyer type", though later on he'd move away from using such military terms to refer to federation ships)
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also, the idea that the enterprise was Kirk's first command is fan-canon.. its never been said on screen whether he'd commanded aother ship before, and Roddenberry back in 1967 said that he envisioned Kirk having commanded a ship before the Enterprise, just a smaller ones. (he used the term "destroyer type", though later on he'd move away from using such military terms to refer to federation ships)
In some of the comics, this is the case, as I remember one (published in the late ‘80’s or early ‘90’s) where he’s remembering his initial view of the Enterprise, while sitting in the command chair of the destroyer he was commanding; from which he partially rose, thinking it was love at first sight, gazing at the ship he would be commanding in the near future.
Ruger
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My dad oversaw some health and safety stuff for one of the new Star Trek movies. He’s got a lot of Star Fleet stickers and he has a picture of him sitting in the Captains chair.
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also, the idea that the enterprise was Kirk's first command is fan-canon.. its never been said on screen whether he'd commanded aother ship before, and Roddenberry back in 1967 said that he envisioned Kirk having commanded a ship before the Enterprise, just a smaller ones. (he used the term "destroyer type", though later on he'd move away from using such military terms to refer to federation ships)
it makes sense IMHO, there's no way the flagship woulda been handed to a new captain
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also, the idea that the enterprise was Kirk's first command is fan-canon.. its never been said on screen whether he'd commanded aother ship before, and Roddenberry back in 1967 said that he envisioned Kirk having commanded a ship before the Enterprise, just a smaller ones. (he used the term "destroyer type", though later on he'd move away from using such military terms to refer to federation ships)
That does seem about right for how the Farragut was presented in SNW. If the Constitution class is a "cruiser", then the Farragut could certainly come across as a "destroyer"--smaller, less heavily armed, but faster and more maneuverable.
cheers,
Gabe
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That does seem about right for how the Farragut was presented in SNW. If the Constitution class is a "cruiser", then the Farragut could certainly come across as a "destroyer"--smaller, less heavily armed, but faster and more maneuverable.
cheers,
Gabe
straddles the line between destroyer and light cruiser i'd guess. if it is the same farragut that Kirk was LT on when it encountered the cloud creature (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Dikironium_cloud_creature), the ship had a crwew size about that of the Enterprise itself. (the creature is said to have killed half the crew, later in the episode the number 200 dead was mentioned, suggesting a crew of around 400, which was also what the Constitution class carries. so its physically smaller due to the lack of the secondary hull, but has about the same manpower.
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straddles the line between destroyer and light cruiser i'd guess. if it is the same farragut that Kirk was LT on when it encountered the cloud creature (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Dikironium_cloud_creature), the ship had a crwew size about that of the Enterprise itself. (the creature is said to have killed half the crew, later in the episode the number 200 dead was mentioned, suggesting a crew of around 400, which was also what the Constitution class carries. so its physically smaller due to the lack of the secondary hull, but has about the same manpower.
SNW made such a huge mistake with the Farragut. They used the wrong ship for the USS Peregrine and the USS Farragut. The Peregrine should of been that smaller ship and the Farragut be Sombra class from that episode where Hammer dies and the Gorn turn into the Xenomorph.
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SNW made such a huge mistake with the Farragut. They used the wrong ship for the USS Peregrine and the USS Farragut. The Peregrine should of been that smaller ship and the Farragut be Sombra class from that episode where Hammer dies and the Gorn turn into the Xenomorph.
Why? Don't understand the reasoning here.
cheers,
Gabe
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Why? Don't understand the reasoning here.
cheers,
Gabe
Yeah, I'm not getting it either. The idea that the Farragut was a Constitution class was never spelled out on-screen.
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Yeah, I'm not getting it either. The idea that the Farragut was a Constitution class was never spelled out on-screen.
If I recall correctly the Farragut is listed in the semi canon Starfleet tech manual as a Constitution Class which might be the source of the confusion. Makes more sense if Kirk has flagged up from a smaller ship rather than the Kelvin timeline's insta-captain trick.
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'semi-canon" in this case meaning "never actually considered canon but fans still insist it was because two pages from it got shown on a small background view screen for half a second"
it wasn't even written with Roddenberry's permission or input.
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Well that explains a lot why he is so upset over this minor thing.
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Well that explains a lot why he is so upset over this minor thing.
Well, they didn't even need to create a new class of ship for the Farragut. They could've just re-used one of the classes they created for DISCO, like the Walker-class (the Shenzhou) if they wanted to convey that the Farragut was an older, less capable ship than a Constitution-class. At least it would've been something we've seen before in the context of nuTrek.
Cheers,
Gabe
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Well, they didn't even need to create a new class of ship for the Farragut. They could've just re-used one of the classes they created for DISCO, like the Walker-class (the Shenzhou) if they wanted to convey that the Farragut was an older, less capable ship than a Constitution-class. At least it would've been something we've seen before in the context of nuTrek.
Personally, I'm glad they didn't. I have a lot of gripes about Disco's starship aesthetics. & while the on-screen Farragut wasn't anything special, at least it looked like it belongs in the same universe as the Enterprise, unlike the Shenzhou or Disco...
Damon.
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*yahn* Nerds... You should be thankful that NONE of the DIS ships have appeared in SNW...
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i wouldn't mind seeing a few, especially in the background around star bases and such. at least, so long as they are season 1&2 DIS ships.
the danger would be that they get lazy like they did in some of the PIC stuff* and use ships from DIS season 3&4.
*when they stuck some 23rd century DIS ships into 25th century docks at utopia planetia
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Well, they didn't even need to create a new class of ship for the Farragut. They could've just re-used one of the classes they created for DISCO, like the Walker-class (the Shenzhou) if they wanted to convey that the Farragut was an older, less capable ship than a Constitution-class. At least it would've been something we've seen before in the context of nuTrek.
Cheers,
Gabe
Im glad they didn't use the Disco ships in SNW they are too "advanced" for what should be at the time. I just thought the Sombra should of been more of a "scout" class ship over a discount Connie. I guess the Farragut being more of a destroyer than a Connie makes more since. I guess everyone though early that the Farragut that Kirk served on was a Connie becuase it was the more state of the line craft and the TOS only had Connies and thats it....budget.
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also, the idea that the enterprise was Kirk's first command is fan-canon.. its never been said on screen whether he'd commanded aother ship before, and Roddenberry back in 1967 said that he envisioned Kirk having commanded a ship before the Enterprise, just a smaller ones. (he used the term "destroyer type", though later on he'd move away from using such military terms to refer to federation ships)
According to "Enterprise:The First Adventure" by Vonda N McIntyre, who also wrote the novelisations for Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock, and Voyage Home, Kirk's first command was USS Lydia Sutherland.
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Lydia_Sutherland
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I guess everyone though early that the Farragut that Kirk served on was a Connie becuase it was the more state of the line craft and the TOS only had Connies and thats it....budget.
Well that's kind of what we're seeing now in SNW, isn't it? Except for the science vessel from the first episode, the Sombra-class is a budget Connie, the Cayuga ( Batel's ship) is also a Connie...only other new ship class we've seen so far is the Farragut (which, according to Memory Alpha, doesn't yet have a parent class). We've actually seen more different kinds of Romulan ships than Federation ships in SNW!
Cheers,
Gabe
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historically, it's not that unusual for a 'class' of ships be one or two hulls. the United States mass-producing single designs was actually pretty unusual (the 'Standard class' battleships of the pre-WW1 period contrast with the Royal Navy being an example.)
So it's entirely plausible for Starfleet to produce small runs of one or two vessels in a class, especially in interwar periods to test layouts and design theories.
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historically, it's not that unusual for a 'class' of ships be one or two hulls. the United States mass-producing single designs was actually pretty unusual (the 'Standard class' battleships of the pre-WW1 period contrast with the Royal Navy being an example.)
So it's entirely plausible for Starfleet to produce small runs of one or two vessels in a class, especially in interwar periods to test layouts and design theories.
for what it's worth, the Discovery campaign guide for the star trek adventures RPG notes that the wide varity of ship hulls we saw in early discovery (partiuclarly at the battle of the binary stars) represents a wide range of older ships from a expansion period following the romulan war. these ships where largely retired following the war due to losses combined with the advent of the new duotronic computer.
following this logic starfleet needed to replace a large number of hulls quickly and thus it makes sense they'd use common hull forms proven to work to quickly increase the size of the fleet.
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and i've come to be less annoyed by the styles of those ships, myself. i just chalk them up to vulcan, tellarite, and andorian influence on federation design teams, with the Constitution being a more human styling. the blocky warp nacelles look like trying to build andorian style drives (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Andorian_battle_cruiser) for example. it wouldn't be hard to excuse the Walker class/Shenzou's styling as being derived from influence of some other alien race that joined the federation in its early years. Denobulan (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Denobulan_medical_ship) perhaps.
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and i've come to be less annoyed by the styles of those ships, myself. i just chalk them up to vulcan, tellarite, and andorian influence on federation design teams, with the Constitution being a more human styling. the blocky warp nacelles look like trying to build andorian style drives (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Andorian_battle_cruiser) for example. it wouldn't be hard to excuse the Walker class/Shenzou's styling as being derived from influence of some other alien race that joined the federation in its early years. Denobulan (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Denobulan_medical_ship) perhaps.
Keep in mind, compact design can be USEFUL design, espeicially if, like Starfleet, your go-to is pressurized with life support under all conditions. a compact ship means your surface area to keep sealed is smaller, systems are more readily available for maintenance, you therefore spend less on materials, construction time, and your proportion of USEFUL volume goes up. (the best surface to volume in geometry is a sphere for a reason.) This also makes for a smaller profile to protect with the same output on your shield systems, and less material for the same armor rating for structural armoring.
Getting the same structural rigidity/armor and shield strength from a spread out design like the Constitution Class will by default require more equipment, materials, manpower, time, etc. to achieve. The main reason for spread out layouts like the Connie, is that you can isolate more areas of the ship from the other areas in the event of a boarding action, or in the event of a leak or other dangerous malfunction, and you have more surface area to install external systems for a given mass (which may be useful if your weapons have side effects like radiation leakage or a need for radiative cooling).
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less about the compact design thing than the stylings used. the Shenzou has been accused of being 'too advanced looking' especially in the nacelles due to the use of stylized shapes instead of the utilitarian cylinders and featureless smooth hulls of TOS. but pretty much all the alien races in TOS that make up the federation by the 23rd century used much more stylized hull and nacelle shapes, and it would make sense to me that their data on warp drive dynamics and their visual preferences would end up mixed into the human design teams and the brass picking the final designs. so we should see more non-human stylized visual elements in use.
the other ships with their block like nacelles and multi-bussard collector domes look more TOS like otherwise, and i can see the nacelle design being something that mixes alien influence on earth design, plus perhaps an element of building ships to different specs and needs than the Constitution class.
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less about the compact design thing than the stylings used. the Shenzou has been accused of being 'too advanced looking' especially in the nacelles due to the use of stylized shapes instead of the utilitarian cylinders and featureless smooth hulls of TOS. but pretty much all the alien races in TOS that make up the federation by the 23rd century used much more stylized hull and nacelle shapes, and it would make sense to me that their data on warp drive dynamics and their visual preferences would end up mixed into the human design teams and the brass picking the final designs. so we should see more non-human stylized visual elements in use.
From the Memory Alpha entry on the Walker class:
The Walker-class, represented by the USS Shenzhou, was designed by John Eaves in conjunction with Star Trek: Discovery production designer Todd Cherniawsky, under guidance from co-creator Bryan Fuller who requested that the ships have a lower profile than that of the original USS Enterprise and possess angular nacelles. In order to rationalize this divergent design ethic, Eaves and Cherniawsky speculated that Starfleet of this era might have deviated from earlier, Vulcan-inspired designs, or that the Shenzhou and Discovery originated from a different production base than the Enterprise. (Star Trek: Discovery The Official Starships Collection, issue 1, pp. 9-10)
Right there lies the key issue--certain design elements were specifically requested by original showrunner Bryan Fuller, who wanted to make things different for the sake of difference, and was more interested in reshaping the Trek universe to suit his personal vision of it rather than consistency with established canon. Even after he left DISCO due to the usual "creative differences", it seems the remaining showrunners wanted to at least partially adhere to his radical re-imagining, until they finally figured out that different for difference's sake didn't work--witness the early introduction of the recognizably standard Klingon D-7 cruiser in DISCO S2.
It continues:
The Walker-class was meant to incorporate elements from Enterprise NX-01 from Star Trek: Enterprise and the USS Reliant from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, as well as 1940s aircraft. The distinctive red livery adorning the Shenzhou was added after the design was finalized and the Atzec-patterning deemed too subtle. Eaves also created a rendering of the ship with turquoise livery, but this was not utilized in the final design. (Star Trek: Discovery The Official Starships Collection, issue 1, pp. 10-13) Eaves also produced a four-nacelled concept design for this class of vessel, in mid-July 2016, which later played a part in inspiring the design of the Cardenas-class. (Star Trek: Discovery Designing Starships, p. 74)
According to Eaves, "the only real note I had was that the bridge was going to be on the bottom, plus we knew it was going to be an older ship." During the process of designing the Shenzhou, many of the variety of designs Eaves conceptualized would be later used for other Starfleet ships. In finalizing the design, "I wanted something non-traditional to tie it all together. I thought about something that Tony Moore at Edwards Air Force Base told me about, which was a 'blended body' aircraft, where everything smoothly transitions into itself, so the hull blends into the winds and so forth [….] So my hull blended with the saucer." The final product resulted with "a body that arched across the top of the saucer with the bridge on the bottom, so it had all the necessary elements, but in a new layout." (Star Trek: The Art of John Eaves, pp. 188-191)
cheers,
Gabe
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Doylist vs Watsonian. the development stuff is Doyalist. my bit about non-human influences on federation ship design is watsonian.
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Doylist vs Watsonian. the development stuff is Doyalist. my bit about non-human influences on federation ship design is watsonian.
You can come up with any number of in-universe rationalizations you want. So can someone else and reach startlingly different conclusions. Doesn't change the fact that the OOC reason the ships looked inconsistent with previous canon** was because the original showrunner--who really ought to have known better--wanted it that way because reasons.
**Actually, was it? Before DISCO, what canon information was there on Federation ships between 2161 and 2245?
cheers,
Gabe
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You can come up with any number of in-universe rationalizations you want. So can someone else and reach startlingly different conclusions. Doesn't change the fact that the OOC reason the ships looked inconsistent with previous canon** was because the original showrunner--who really ought to have known better--wanted it that way because reasons.
**Actually, was it? Before DISCO, what canon information was there on Federation ships between 2161 and 2245?
cheers,
Gabe
before DISCO we have the NX-01, and the NCC-1701 and that was pretty much it. there is a distinct design linniage so anything that doesn't fit within that people scream doesn't work, but they ignore the wide varity of trek ships we see in say.. the TNG era.
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before DISCO we have the NX-01, and the NCC-1701 and that was pretty much it. there is a distinct design linniage so anything that doesn't fit within that people scream doesn't work, but they ignore the wide varity of trek ships we see in say.. the TNG era.
Point taken, but visually, there are fewer differences between, say, the TNG-era Galaxy, Nebula, and California classes on the one hand, than between the Constitution class, SNW's Farragut, and the Walker (Shenzhou), Nimitz (Europa), and Cardenas (Buran) classes on the other (the latter three were all created for DISCO). And yet, the latter three also all have design elements derived from the NX-class; the Walker in particular is, MORE OR LESS, an NX-class ship flipped upside down.
EDIT: It also doesn't help that for DISCO and SNW, they redesigned the Enterprise's nacelles to more closely resemble those of the NX-01 Enterprise as seen on ST:ENT, reinforcing that sense of design lineage you mention.
cheers,
Gabe
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Point taken, but visually, there are fewer differences between, say, the TNG-era Galaxy, Nebula, and California classes on the one hand, than between the Constitution class, SNW's Farragut, and the Walker (Shenzhou), Nimitz (Europa), and Cardenas (Buran) classes on the other (the latter three were all created for DISCO). And yet, the latter three also all have design elements derived from the NX-class; the Walker in particular is, MORE OR LESS, an NX-class ship flipped upside down.
EDIT: It also doesn't help that for DISCO and SNW, they redesigned the Enterprise's nacelles to more closely resemble those of the NX-01 Enterprise as seen on ST:ENT, reinforcing that sense of design lineage you mention.
cheers,
Gabe
on the otherhand there is the challenger class (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Challenger_class), niagara class (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Niagara_class), Cheyenne Class (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Cheyenne_class), Springfield Class (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Springfield_class), Freedom Class (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Freedom_class_(24th_century)), not to mention all the stuff from DS9's fleet shots, many of which could easily have been full on classes and not the "cobbled together junkers" that some clearly were.
which have just as much divergence from the "Refit connie, excelsior, and galaxy class" stylings and layouts as the Discovery era fleet vessels had from the NX-01 and TOS connie.
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before DISCO we have the NX-01, and the NCC-1701 and that was pretty much it. there is a distinct design linniage so anything that doesn't fit within that people scream doesn't work, but they ignore the wide varity of trek ships we see in say.. the TNG era.
Not true. We had the Kelvin in the Trek Reboot, which would have been canon in the Prime Universe. It could be argued that the other ships seen at the final battle in the reboot might be canon as well (semi-canon) depending on commission dates (i.e. before or after the universe splits). The Kelvin was sufficiently different from either the NX architecture, & the TOS architecture, that it can be seen as an intermediate step.
Damon.
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Well, if we're bringing the Kelvinverse movies into it, there's also the USS Franklin from Star Trek Beyond, which also would've been canon in the Prime universe and IIRC predated the NX class.
Cheers,
Gabe
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Lower Decks series 3 trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ImVEbwOoeE
Picard series 3 teaser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqApTpJMWOk
SNW series 2 will feature a crossover with Lower Decks
https://deadline.com/2022/07/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-star-trek-lower-decks-crossover-episode-comic-con-1235075961/
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SNW series 2 will feature a crossover with Lower Decks
https://deadline.com/2022/07/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-star-trek-lower-decks-crossover-episode-comic-con-1235075961/
Wondering how they intend to pull THAT off...
Damon.
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Wondering how they intend to pull THAT off...
Damon.
I suspect there's a one-letter answer to that question.
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SNW series 2 will feature a crossover with Lower Decks
https://deadline.com/2022/07/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-star-trek-lower-decks-crossover-episode-comic-con-1235075961/
That's either going to succeed brilliantly or fail so spectacularly that it sinks the entire Trek franchise.
And oh yeah, Jonathan Frakes is directing, so he's up for the risk. I'd bet money that he guest stars in the episode too and he'll break out his trombone.
(Come to think of it, I'd actually like to see Mariner lock horns with Captain Angel...)
cheers,
Gabe
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actually the lower decks main quartet were drawn to look like their voice actors (roughly) so it could be a full live action episode, just showing the end result of a timetravel ep. plotline. hopefully season 3 of Lower decks will have clues as to what is going to happen. (perhaps we'll get a timetravel Episode there, and the SNW ep will be a "what happened between scenes/just off screen" thing to it)
personally i'd hope for a "trials and tribble-ations" type thing where Mariner, Boimler, and so on end up in the 23rd century (in the LD ep, drawn using TAS style except for them), and have to fix something in the past by pretending to be Enterprise crew members. then in the SNW ep, we see their VA's playing them, and we get to see events referenced in the LD episode from the SNW cast perspective.
honestly i'd prefer that they go the "we're using the VA's in live action" route because then it becomes clear that SNW, Lower Decks, etc are in fact all the same reality, just with different stylized visuals. if they do "Q snaps his fingers and suddenly they're all animated", it is just going to fuel the haters of DIS, SNW, etc by giving them evidence (in their minds) that all the "new trek" is a different reality than "old trek" and thus somehow not canon. thus intensifying the online arguments and flamewars.
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I suspect there's a one-letter answer to that question.
Or time crystals.
Ruger
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actually the lower decks main quartet were drawn to look like their voice actors (roughly) so it could be a full live action episode, just showing the end result of a timetravel ep. plotline. hopefully season 3 of Lower decks will have clues as to what is going to happen. (perhaps we'll get a timetravel Episode there, and the SNW ep will be a "what happened between scenes/just off screen" thing to it)
It'll be a mixed style episode, live action and animation.... This could be the most awesome Trek thing ever, og make Nemesis look like a masterpiece :D
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so, it's gonna be "who framed Ensign Rabbit"?
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I suspect there's a one-letter answer to that question.
Or Wesley and his new Time Guardian gig...
That's either going to succeed brilliantly or fail so spectacularly that it sinks the entire Trek franchise.
And oh yeah, Jonathan Frakes is directing, so he's up for the risk. I'd bet money that he guest stars in the episode too and he'll break out his trombone.
actually the lower decks main quartet were drawn to look like their voice actors (roughly) so it could be a full live action episode, just showing the end result of a timetravel ep. plotline. hopefully season 3 of Lower decks will have clues as to what is going to happen. (perhaps we'll get a timetravel Episode there, and the SNW ep will be a "what happened between scenes/just off screen" thing to it)
personally i'd hope for a "trials and tribble-ations" type thing where Mariner, Boimler, and so on end up in the 23rd century (in the LD ep, drawn using TAS style except for them), and have to fix something in the past by pretending to be Enterprise crew members. then in the SNW ep, we see their VA's playing them, and we get to see events referenced in the LD episode from the SNW cast perspective.
It'll be a mixed style episode, live action and animation.... This could be the most awesome Trek thing ever, og make Nemesis look like a masterpiece :D
But will it feature the most important things of all: FOOD CUBES AND THE ENTERPISE'S BOWLING ALLEY?!
Or time crystals.
****** TIME CRYSTALS!!!
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Been wondering since I saw the SNW season finale...what exactly is the role of a Romulan praetor?
In ancient Rome, a praetor could be either a high-ranking military commander or a magistrate. Leaving aside the conceit that Romulan ranks and titles translate into English as Latin/Roman equivalents, in SNW, the praetor who leads the Romulan armada has the bearing of an empress and expects to be treated as such. Is there previous canon stating that the ruler of the entire Romulan Empire holds the title of praetor? (IIRC, the leader of the Romulan Senate is called a proconsul...?)
cheers,
Gabe
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According to Memory Alpha, the Praetor is the leader of the empire and the Proconsul is immediately below them.
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https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Praetor
"answer unclear, try again later"
beta canon has Praetors being some of the highest members of the government. just below the (largely ceremonial most of the time) Emperor/Empress. thanks to writers borrowing from each other (especially borrowing from Diane Duane's excellent Rihannsu novels) it usually has them being about 9 in number, in 3 groups of three, as the highest position in the senate. with a triumvirate who are "first among equals" and effectively lead the whole empire in roles analogous to Prime Ministers. (after Shinzon's coup this shifted heavily)
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Been wondering since I saw the SNW season finale...what exactly is the role of a Romulan praetor?
In ancient Rome, a praetor could be either a high-ranking military commander or a magistrate. Leaving aside the conceit that Romulan ranks and titles translate into English as Latin/Roman equivalents, in SNW, the praetor who leads the Romulan armada has the bearing of an empress and expects to be treated as such. Is there previous canon stating that the ruler of the entire Romulan Empire holds the title of praetor? (IIRC, the leader of the Romulan Senate is called a proconsul...?)
cheers,
Gabe
The Romulan Commander from “Balance of Terror” referred to the praetor a few times during the episode, and the way the term was used seemed to indicate he was talking about the leader of the Empire.
Ruger
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According to Memory Alpha, the Praetor is the leader of the empire and the Proconsul is immediately below them.
So technically, the Praetor should really be called Imperator, then? Is it an elected or hereditary position?
Well, that seems to fit with the attitude of Decius in "Balance of Terror", who seemed to be pretty preoccupied with winning for the glory of the Praetor. I doubt he would've been so fanatical if the Praetor was just a regional military commander or even a magistrate supervising the law over a large sector of Romulan space.
cheers,
Gabe
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Been wondering since I saw the SNW season finale...what exactly is the role of a Romulan praetor?
In ancient Rome, a praetor could be either a high-ranking military commander or a magistrate. Leaving aside the conceit that Romulan ranks and titles translate into English as Latin/Roman equivalents, in SNW, the praetor who leads the Romulan armada has the bearing of an empress and expects to be treated as such. Is there previous canon stating that the ruler of the entire Romulan Empire holds the title of praetor? (IIRC, the leader of the Romulan Senate is called a proconsul...?)
cheers,
Gabe
This was referenced a few times in TNG and the like. Most notably in Nemesis, when Shinzon becomes Praetor and makes noises about wanting peace with the Federation, which kicks off the movie's shenanigans.
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While I've not been able to watch entire episodes, I've gotten gists what coming up I think.
SNW So there jabber about Kirk being coming new Executive officer. Is that right? Has Pike gone to the Talos IV yet? Kirk wasn't even associated with Enterprise when did that, Number One was still executive officer.
Lower Decks Cross over between SNW and Lower Decks, Pike gets animated.
Picard Last Season coming up with number 3. Weird thing it's a TNG closure season. Not that I'm complaining. However, focus on series is on them than another adventure. Its alleged that its going spin off a post-Picard series, properly 7 of 9 as Captain.
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While I've not been able to watch entire episodes, I've gotten gists what coming up I think.
SNW So there jabber about Kirk being coming new Executive officer. Is that right? Has Pike gone to the Talos IV yet? Kirk wasn't even associated with Enterprise when did that, Number One was still executive officer.
[/spoiler]
Pike has indeed gone to Talos IV; the events of "The Cage" take place about five years before the first episode of SNW. Whether they will go there again remains to be seen; there must be some reason why in "The Menagerie", visiting Talos IV carries the death penalty.
I hope they don't go the route of having JTK become Pike's XO on the Enterprise, but Pike is now in a position to monitor and influence JTK's career trajectory to ensure he ends up as Enterprise Captain rather than remaining on the Farragut or transferring to another ship.
One thing I've kept thinking about after the SNW S1 finale is how many of the things seen in the alternate 2266 will still happen?
Una gets arrested at the end of the episode, and in the alternate timeline she is still serving time on a Federation penal colony, so Pike wasn't able (or didn't try) to save her in that timeline. Will that still happen? The way I see it happening is Pike doing his best impression of Picard defending Data in "The Measure of A Man" and failing to sway the judges. Another big change was Ortegas; what the heck happened to turn her from a jocular wisecracker into the alternate timeline's bitter, driven vet? And then there's La'an, who let her hair down both literally and figuratively (and stopped wearing quasi-Goth eye makeup) as JTK's XO on the Farragut. Will she still turn out that way?
cheers,
Gabe
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At the SDCC panel they were saying that Kirk will be a Lieutenant on the Farragut when he shows up in series 2, so it could be a case of him being temporarily transferred to the Enterprise or he joins the crew.
RE: Talos IV, the implication in Discovery was that the death order was put in place after Pike's visit, the shuttle computer told Burnham about it when she set course for there anyway.
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TOS had 'Prime' Kirk saying that he'd only met Pike once, when Pike got promoted to "Fleet Captain". so i'm hoping that when Pike meets kirk in the main SNW timeframe, Pike will also be getting a promotion.. though since "fleet captain" is less of a rank and more of an honorific IRL*, it suggests that maybe it'll be during some situation where the Enterprise and the Farragut are operating as part of a task force. or at least after he receives some reward and gets an honorific
*"fleet captain" is the title given to a Ship's captain serving as the Chief of Staff to a flag officer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_captain#) like an admiral. Commonly used when an admiral is aboard a ship commanding an operation. trek seems to treat it like a proper rank.. but the only other one we've seen is Garth of Izar, suggesting it might be more honorific than organizational still.
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So I finally started watching season 3 of _The Orville_. I'm only 3 episodes in so far, but I already feel I have to ask...
Did the SNW showrunners have a mole somewhere within this show's writer's room or production crew?
Because I'm seeing a lot of what I think are pretty uncanny similarities. And for what they are, _The Orville_ did them better. MUCH better. And I haven't even seen the full season yet.
I'm starting to think that one of SNW's major goals is to compete with _The Orville_. Actually, I already had that feeling from the very first episode, "this Kiley-279 has a pretty Orville-y vibe to it."
If _The Orville_ is not going to be renewed for a fourth season (looking dodgy at this point), then I think Paramount Global should open the bank and offer Seth MacFarlane, Brannon Braga, and Andre Bormanis whatever is necessary to bring them into the Trek fold (actually bringing *back* in the latter two cases, as they're 2nd-gen Trek veterans). If they'd write as well for SNW as they did for _The Orville_, then SNW would truly become a modern-day classic.
cheers,
Gabe
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Christ, I hope not. Braga needs to be kept the hell away from Star Trek.
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Yeah please no Braga. I get that some might have nostalgia for his run in Trek but he isn't guy to bring back.
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yeah, Brannon Braga and Rick Berman were part of the reason that Voyager and Enterprise failed to live up to their potential (especially Enterprise), and part of the reason why it took so long to get a properl ong form startrek series again, being stuck with the Abrams Alt-universe films.
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Can you please explain why all the hate for Braga? From what I can tell his influence has contributed considerably to the steady improvement in _The Orville_. If Seth MacFarlane thought he was going to be that troublesome I don't think he would've brought Braga on board.
cheers,
Gabe
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So I finally started watching season 3 of _The Orville_. I'm only 3 episodes in so far, but I already feel I have to ask...
Did the SNW showrunners have a mole somewhere within this show's writer's room or production crew?
Because I'm seeing a lot of what I think are pretty uncanny similarities. And for what they are, _The Orville_ did them better. MUCH better. And I haven't even seen the full season yet.
I'm starting to think that one of SNW's major goals is to compete with _The Orville_. Actually, I already had that feeling from the very first episode, "this Kiley-279 has a pretty Orville-y vibe to it."
If _The Orville_ is not going to be renewed for a fourth season (looking dodgy at this point), then I think Paramount Global should open the bank and offer Seth MacFarlane, Brannon Braga, and Andre Bormanis whatever is necessary to bring them into the Trek fold (actually bringing *back* in the latter two cases, as they're 2nd-gen Trek veterans). If they'd write as well for SNW as they did for _The Orville_, then SNW would truly become a modern-day classic.
cheers,
Gabe
The third season is stunning they put their hearts and souls into it
Wait for d23 it might still come
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Glad that Lower Decks is back. Not a perfect show but better than most Star Trek but that isn’t saying much.
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Can you please explain why all the hate for Braga? From what I can tell his influence has contributed considerably to the steady improvement in _The Orville_. If Seth MacFarlane thought he was going to be that troublesome I don't think he would've brought Braga on board.
cheers,
Gabe
That is a long and complicated story, Gyedid, with a lot of fan-politics and office-politics at Universal/Paramount mixed into it. The debates and controversies could take over a dozen threads and you wouldn't have any clearer picture of what ACTUALLY happened than you do right now.
the Berman-and-braga era covers some of Trek's greatest highs...and some of the deepest lows (Pre Discovery, which is another one of those topics that can derail things into a flame-war in no time flat.)
Suffice to say, there is a very vocal portion of the Trek Community that would like to see B&B driven from this world, the skin flayed (Metaphorically) from their backs, burnt, the ashes salted and dumped into Cygnus X1...and they still wouldn't be satisfied.
It's what happens when you have a passionate, 'involved' fanbase whom have experienced disappointment with either the result, or condition, of their favorite thing they're a fan of.
What I'm saying is, this one is one of those 'third rail' subjects it's best to steer clear of because it can cause a fight between people who fundamentally agree with each other, never mind what it'll do if someone has a differing viewpoint or opinion on it.
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they were instrumental in allowing many of the less quality ideas into Voyager and Enterprise. many of the weaker " bad technobabble saves the day", "setting continuity failure" and "wtf where they thinking" episodes and ideas can be traced either to them directly, or to their inability to moderate meddling studio executives. (and they were directly behind the whole "catsuit T&A" stuff those two shows employed)
it is notable that they were largely hands off with DS9, which is why that show was able to do so many of the things that made it so well liked by the fandom.
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they were instrumental in allowing many of the less quality ideas into Voyager and Enterprise. many of the weaker " bad technobabble saves the day", "setting continuity failure" and "wtf where they thinking" episodes and ideas can be traced either to them directly, or to their inability to moderate meddling studio executives. (and they were directly behind the whole "catsuit T&A" stuff those two shows employed)
it is notable that they were largely hands off with DS9, which is why that show was able to do so many of the things that made it so well liked by the fandom.
Which is funny, because Berman and Braga were pretty much the only ones at the wheel for DS9, while a third name hit the credits and stayed there for Voyager, whose biggest problem was a writing room that couldn't decide who Kathryn Janeway WAS from episode to episode, and that show only started settling down when they got the borg in the catsuit, while Enterprise's biggest failure was getting a sung pop-song for the credits that turned off a vast number of viewers (surprisingly not just me) from the first minutes of the first episode onward, and a time-travel plot that kinda wrecked things front-to-back...capped by a final episode that should not have been made, because the one immediately before it was the true capper for the best two seasons of that show.
The MAJOR problems came from the Network(s) and there, B&B weren't any more effective than any other network-dependent showrunners. (There's a reason JMS did so well for the first four seasons of B5, but pretty much crap for everything after he got Turner's sponsorship money.)
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Lot of bad came from they time as showrunners and nothing can excuse that. That includes no matter how much nostalgia one might have for that era of Trek and I know that many have nostalgia for that era. Both Voyager and Enterprise are train wrecks that didn't live up to they potential and that's on B&B.
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Ahem...
"So, How about those Strange New Worlds, Eh??"
(let's PLEASE not get into the subject of Bermann and Braga and how many people hate them, PLEASE!!)
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Which is funny, because Berman and Braga were pretty much the only ones at the wheel for DS9,
incorrect, DS9 was Michael Piller and Ira Steven Behr as series producers, with Rick Berman as the executive producer. Braga wasn't involved in DS9
Voyager was Rick Berman as Exec producer with Micheal Pillar, Jeri Taylor, Braga, and Kenneth Biller as series producers. and the years Braga was the main series producer (seasons 4 to 6) are the ones where the series started getting more sloppy writing and technobabble focused episodes. they're also known as the "jeri ryan catsuit" years, because Braga insisted that they get rid of Kes and bring on Jeri Ryan as to, to quote her, "give the show some sex appeal" and boost ratings. while the character was developed past that eventually, it was very weak to start.
now, i'll give Braga some credit, when it came to writing episodes himself, he could (co)write some good ones. like "Year of Hell", "Dark Frontier", and "Equinox". i just wish he'd stuck to writing and hadn't been the producer, because as a producer he had a tendency to go for the cheap and quick season filler stories, and focus only on his favorite characters for development.
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Braga's career trajectory is interesting. After TNG finished up, He went to Voyager while Ron Moore went to DS9. They were prolific writing partners on TNG, they even co-wrote Generations and First Contact - but when Moore moved over to Voyager after DS9 wrapped, he found a huge gulf between their attitudes towards storytelling and found it impossible to work with in Voyager's writing room. Moore quit Voyager after one writer and one co-writer credit and whatever happened meant Moore and Braga didn't talk for years.
I definitely feel that Braga stuck around Trek too long. Whether it was his choice or not, the franchise declined creatively under his control - I quit Trek in the late 90s because Voyager's premise was wasted on what was ultimately TNG with less interesting stories and a less interesting crew and I got bored. Enterprise promised so much in terms of getting back to the TOS sense of adventure and danger, but I read a leaked copy of Broken Bow's script before it aired and it was just more of the same again.
I'm glad that people are enjoying The Orville, but it's essentially TNG fanfic and going back to TNG might help fans who want nostalgia but it's absolutely the wrong decision for Trek as a franchise.
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ISTR the issue with Kes's character had something to do with the actress. There have been persistent rumors that she had issues that interfered with her performance on the show. Certainly things that happened decades later suggest she might have had some struggles, that were under the radar.
I also have to say her character was about as uninteresting as they could be, so when she left the show, I wasn't at all bothered about it. They could have axed Neelix too, but he stayed on until almost the very end, IIRC.
Damon.
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ISTR the issue with Kes's character had something to do with the actress. There have been persistent rumors that she had issues that interfered with her performance on the show. Certainly things that happened decades later suggest she might have had some struggles, that were under the radar.
I also have to say her character was about as uninteresting as they could be, so when she left the show, I wasn't at all bothered about it. They could have axed Neelix too, but he stayed on until almost the very end, IIRC.
Damon.
That's what I read/heard also. The Kes actress wanted more screen time and things done her way and that was giving problems with some other show stars (mainly Kate Mulgrew who according to tech staff on the show wasn't easy to work with). So it came to a point that she wanted to leave the show.
Just for the record... my favorite ST series is DS9.
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ISTR the issue with Kes's character had something to do with the actress. There have been persistent rumors that she had issues that interfered with her performance on the show. Certainly things that happened decades later suggest she might have had some struggles, that were under the radar.
I also have to say her character was about as uninteresting as they could be, so when she left the show, I wasn't at all bothered about it. They could have axed Neelix too, but he stayed on until almost the very end, IIRC.
Damon.
Both she and Neelix were big mistake and badly written. Big "what if" is if Robin Williams had taken role of Neelix and put his foot to ground when it came to writing character. It's not his actor's fault as he tried his best with material that he was given but that material was so bad that it couldn't be saved.
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The Kes/Neelix story was pretty weak at best. Neelix got better when got some stories for himself after she left. But Neelix was just Quark. I just wish that Tom Paris was actually Nicholas Lacarno instead of based on him.
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Can you please explain why all the hate for Braga? From what I can tell his influence has contributed considerably to the steady improvement in _The Orville_. If Seth MacFarlane thought he was going to be that troublesome I don't think he would've brought Braga on board.
cheers,
Gabe
I like the Orville but the only improvement I saw over three seasons was that the cast chemistry steadily improved as the show progressed. The first season started out so wooden I almost didn't finish it but it started to get better and the cast really gels now. The plotlines, however, are pretty generic sci fi tropes IMO.
Also, while I do like The Orville and would like to see it continue Star Trek: SNW is head and shoulders better IMO but that's probably me just preferring actual Star Trek to a Star Trek homage.
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I like the Orville but the only improvement I saw over three seasons was that the cast chemistry steadily improved as the show progressed. The first season started out so wooden I almost didn't finish it but it started to get better and the cast really gels now. The plotlines, however, are pretty generic sci fi tropes IMO.
Also, while I do like The Orville and would like to see it continue Star Trek: SNW is head and shoulders better IMO but that's probably me just preferring actual Star Trek to a Star Trek homage.
Nah. The Orville isn't terrible but I too found the plots a little flat and plodding too in season 3.
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I like the Orville but the only improvement I saw over three seasons was that the cast chemistry steadily improved as the show progressed. The first season started out so wooden I almost didn't finish it but it started to get better and the cast really gels now. The plotlines, however, are pretty generic sci fi tropes IMO.
Also, while I do like The Orville and would like to see it continue Star Trek: SNW is head and shoulders better IMO but that's probably me just preferring actual Star Trek to a Star Trek homage.
most every Sci-fi show uses those tropes (hence; Tropes) in some manner (whether outright, or as a subversion). What I love about SNW, is that they're addressing a high-concept idea most shows rarely touch or even really address.
What is that high concept?
Pike's central theme throughout the first season (and looking out toward the second). SNW has an 'arc' and yet it's episodic, and so far, the writers haven't ****** that up or flinched. I continue to like Pike. they have done well.
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+1000. I admit, i am soiled on STD and PIC largely because of what i had heard about the series (and the clips I've seen haven't impressed me enough) but also because of my feelings prior to the series starts (but i actually blame Axanar for lighting the match: They could have been an INCREDABLE OFFICIAL SERIES had they not done the unethical route, which also killed fan films in general for any genre)...
but SNW? It's magic, what they pulled off so far...
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+1000. I admit, i am soiled on STD and PIC largely because of what i had heard about the series (and the clips I've seen haven't impressed me enough) but also because of my feelings prior to the series starts (but i actually blame Axanar for lighting the match: They could have been an INCREDABLE OFFICIAL SERIES had they not done the unethical route, which also killed fan films in general for any genre)...
but SNW? It's magic, what they pulled off so far...
One ting you can credit Axanar for, and that's proving that more Trek has a market after the networks, studios and other official sources had written it (and the fans) off as unprofitable with no growth potential.
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Maybe the writers and creators of Picard and Disco will see that SNW was something people like to watch and like seeing that happier version of Star Trek over that what those 2 shows are.
I doubt it, but maybe.
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Evidence shows that people do like to watch Discovery and Picard, though.
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Evidence shows that people do like to watch Discovery and Picard, though.
Kind of a thing, isn't it? Trek people aren't a monolithic group. Back when all we had to argue about was TOS, the Movies, and TNG (and TNG related topics) people were practically ready to draw knives over what constituted 'real' Trekkies, Trekkers, etc. etc. etc. and that was mostly before we had widespread INTERNET, never mind Streaming services.
And ya know what? we're all screwed man, because we're ALL trek fans-we just boutique these days, picking and choosing what we like, like...well, like fans of a long-running franchise that's survived multiple networks, studios, and owners.
We aren't a monolith, and people who think we are either spend too much time in their echo-chambers, or aren't really paying attention.
Sadly, this sometimes includes the people MAKING the shows with the 'not paying attention' part...but that's entertainment as a business.
that said, I think SNW has some deeper takes on some pretty high concept stuff sneaking through there of the sort that doesn't NORMALLY get addressed in that way. Pike is a doomed hero, but they're handling it SUPERBLY. Someone over there at the studio REALLY knows their shit.
I admit being less impressed with "Picard" but that's more MY issues than any issues with the show itself. (Sometimes it doesn't matter what the quality is, you just don't dig it like you thought you would. Thus why it's nice they've got DIFFERENT SHOWS IN THE WORKS at the same time.)
Not all flavors appeal to all tastes, and it is wrong to demand that they do.
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Like I said about the Orville, I'm glad it's there and people enjoy it but it's not for me. Similarly I enjoy SNW but it doesn't have the same emotional heft for me as Picard or DISCO - I found the finales of those two shows far more effecting than anything in SNW, even though it's a more accomplished and self-assured show on a lot of tangible levels.
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I couldn't get as into Picard mostly because I have a personal thing where I just...don't like time travel. I don't know why, it's been a thing since I was a little kid. Even with Saturday morning cartoons, the two things I just flat-out didn't care for were time travel, and mistaken identity (evil/robot/etc. clone of the character does whatever, main character gets blamed and has no idea why, that trope).
I wanted to watch Picard because he is my favorite of the Captains thus far (though...I think that may go to Pike now, I REALLY like SNW) but as soon as S2 started delving into their main storyline, I had to give it up just because I didn't care for the overall premise.
Sucks, but it's this weird aversion I have.
Even WEIRDER, is that I really liked First Contact. I honestly couldn't tell you why the time travel in that movie doesn't bother me the way it does in other shows and movies.
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I couldn't get as into Picard mostly because I have a personal thing where I just...don't like time travel. I don't know why, it's been a thing since I was a little kid. Even with Saturday morning cartoons, the two things I just flat-out didn't care for were time travel, and mistaken identity (evil/robot/etc. clone of the character does whatever, main character gets blamed and has no idea why, that trope).
I agree to a certain extent, & I think Trek needs to back off on the Time Travel plotlines. But to be fair, in Picard S2, it wasn't just time travel, but an alternate universe as well. To make it that much more complex.
Damon.
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Really enjoying Lower Decks S3. Be nice to see what character developments lie in wait for the lower Deckers. Always fun to see Cetacean Ops also.
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+1000. I admit, i am soiled on STD and PIC largely because of what i had heard about the series (and the clips I've seen haven't impressed me enough) but also because of my feelings prior to the series starts (but i actually blame Axanar for lighting the match: They could have been an INCREDABLE OFFICIAL SERIES had they not done the unethical route, which also killed fan films in general for any genre)...
but SNW? It's magic, what they pulled off so far...
I'll say that I avoided Discovery for a long time because of what I'd heard but when I finally ended up watching it I really enjoyed it. No one was more surprised than me about that.
I like Picard too but almost exclusively just because I like Sir Patrick's work so much. The first season was way too dark IMO but I liked the second season a lot more but hey Q AND time travel AND Wesley Crusher too? How can you resist?
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I couldn't get as into Picard mostly because I have a personal thing where I just...don't like time travel.
<snip>
Even WEIRDER, is that I really liked First Contact. I honestly couldn't tell you why the time travel in that movie doesn't bother me the way it does in other shows and movies.
Other way around for me - I didn't mind the time travel in Picard but I dislike First Contact alot for it (and the Borg). :)
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I disliked First Contact because it felt they kinda dumbed down first contact for film.
There was early books I read that described how Zefram Cochrane and how the first contact happened. In it they said Cochrane went to Alpha Centurai where he meet the Vulcans. Which makes more sense to me than tiny rocket turn warp ship.
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I’m liking Season 3 of Lower Decks. It’s is a good Star Trek and tells the stories from a lower ranked member that may have no idea on why the ship is doing what the ship is doing. It’s more of a positive Star Trek. Is it perfect no, but it is good!
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I’m liking Season 3 of Lower Decks. It’s is a good Star Trek and tells the stories from a lower ranked member that may have no idea on why the ship is doing what the ship is doing. It’s more of a positive Star Trek. Is it perfect no, but it is good!
I was a bit surprised they spent resolved the cliff hanger from last season so quickly. But good to see/hear Martok!
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I was a bit surprised they spent resolved the cliff hanger from last season so quickly. But good to see/hear Martok!
"He rips your arm off and beats you to death with it. Since it IS your own arm, technically you have died by your own hand and without honor!" ;D
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"He rips your arm off and beats you to death with it. Since it IS your own arm, technically you have died by your own hand and without honor!" ;D
Sounds something a Wookiee would do.
Psss....Let the wookiee win.
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Picard series 3 teaser, it's back February 16th:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o-QBUw8Rf0
Lower Decks episode 8 sneak peek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiGHAOZY1qM
Prodigy sneak peek, it's back October 27th:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsgEONjoEjY
SNW series 2 sneak peak:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvX8ktHtfYU
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Seems good to me.
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Oh, and Carol Kane is playing Chief Engineer Pellia in SNW series 2
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FcG9FvcacAAW2XS.jpg)
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Star Trek Online announced its next big campaign arc mission, and finally revealed who the 25th century Terran Emperor is. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PXfNBd4eks)
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Looks like they are redoing the Connie as the USS Titan for season 3.
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Looks like they are redoing the Connie as the USS Titan for season 3.
The class name is either going to be Neo Consitution or New Constitution according to Terry Matalas.
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apparently the official designation is Constitution III Class.
which honestly, makes sense. its always just going to be the "Constitution Class." but adding a numeral lets you clarify which ship class by that name you refer to.
presumably the TOS version was the Constitution I, and the refit was the Constitution II. (since the refit certainly was extensive enough to qualify as a new class, especially if they built any new hulls to that spec, which seems likely.
presumably the 31st century Constitution class seen in Season 3 and 4 of Discovery is the Constitution XII class, or something like that.
and the ship is not the USS Titan (which is Luna class as seen on Lower Decks). but rather the USS Titan -A. i guess Riker's Titan got retired but it earned enough renown to go on the list of preserved registries.
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We're living in great Trekkie-times. It's great to be a fan now :)
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Picard series 3 teaser, it's back February 16th:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o-QBUw8Rf0
Lower Decks episode 8 sneak peek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiGHAOZY1qM
Prodigy sneak peek, it's back October 27th:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsgEONjoEjY
SNW series 2 sneak peak:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvX8ktHtfYU
In the Picard trailer, was that last ship the Titan? If so, it’s either a different one than Riker commanded (but his expression and words seemed to indicate otherwise), or they changed what had been given for its appearance in other things, including Lower Decks?
Ruger
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In the Picard trailer, was that last ship the Titan? If so, it’s either a different one than Riker commanded (but his expression and words seemed to indicate otherwise), or they changed what had been given for its appearance in other things, including Lower Decks?
Ruger
its the Titan -A
Riker's titan was apparently either decommissioned or destroyed.
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its the Titan -A
Riker's titan was apparently either decommissioned or destroyed.
Or hijacked by the Lower Deck crew. ;D (j/k)
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Star Trek Online announced its next big campaign arc mission, and finally revealed who the 25th century Terran Emperor is. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PXfNBd4eks)
Oh yeah Wesley Crusher is new Terran Emperor.
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I didn't like the look of the Titan-A at first becuase I thought it was a knock off of the Connie....but it looks ok.
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Someone posted a clearer picture of the Titan-A on a modeling website. Does this thing have Movie era warp engines??? I asked if that is the real deal, no response yet. If so...why???
Damon.
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Someone posted a clearer picture of the Titan-A on a modeling website. Does this thing have Movie era warp engines??? I asked if that is the real deal, no response yet. If so...why???
Damon.
no, it has the same engines as the new Stargazer in S2 had.
however there is a very similar TMP era ship from the Ship of the Line calendars that does use the movie era engines.
source for the pictures attached/below:
https://twitter.com/TrekCore/status/1567963434171473921 (https://twitter.com/TrekCore/status/1567963434171473921)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52348221656_dd2e63a7f1_z.jpg)(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52348470893_99cc0d3233_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52348470908_49a3258d44_z.jpg)(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52348540069_14914b3209_z.jpg)
prelim design analysis by Certifiably Ingame on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sizDFYphvw
and the Beta Canon Ship of the Line calendar image from Feb 2022, the Shangri-La class, created by Bill Krause (twitter page (https://twitter.com/BuckAdmiral))
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Shangri-La_class (https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Shangri-La_class)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52347279767_970d15ba10_b.jpg)
similar but definitely not the same
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The TMP engine version is a fan-made ship by Bill Krause, known as the Shangri-La. Someone at CBS apparently liked it enough that they commissioned the artist to design a Picard-era version of the ship. You can see more differences here:
https://twitter.com/BuckAdmiral/status/1568024167232184320
I expect the playable version not long after it appears in PIC, so sometime in 2023 I will be getting that ship in STO.
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size wise it's about the same size as the TOS/TMP connie, so in STO i'd expect it'll join that family of ship parts. sadly it'll be either a lockbox ship or part of an expensive "legendary ship pack" on the Zen store.
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I didn't like the look of the Titan-A at first becuase I thought it was a knock off of the Connie....but it looks ok.
It's a new Constitution class, the forerunner of the 31st Century version seen in DISCO. A lot of the newer Federation classes don't have a "neck" connecting the saucer to the secondary hull, which actually seems to be a distinctive design feature of the Connie (and the Galaxy class). This Titan-A has all the basic Connie design features. The nacelles seem oversized for the supporting pylons and I'm not sold on the "hammerhead" look of the saucer.
In the Picard trailer, was that last ship the Titan? If so, it’s either a different one than Riker commanded (but his expression and words seemed to indicate otherwise), or they changed what had been given for its appearance in other things, including Lower Decks?
Riker's Titan was Luna-class, which looks like the bastard child of a Miranda and a Vor'cha. Not that that's bad--it looks MEAN.
cheers,
Gabe
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So, um...
Does it count as rishathra if one of the participants is both non-biological AND non-humanoid in form?
And oh yeah, Peanut Hamper really is one of the most despicable characters ever to grace any Trek series.
Putting her in a facility full of megalomanaical AIs couldn't possibly backfire, right?
Cheers,
Gabe
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Totally won't become a plot point sometime in the future.
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We've seen that vault used in a previous episode I seem to recall?
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We've seen that vault used in a previous episode I seem to recall?
Yeah, the computer beside her that started laughing with her was Agimus, who Boimler and Mariner brought to Earth in series 2 - after crashing on a desert planet where everything tasted of licorice
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On a different note I also enjoyed the previous episode, revisiting DS9 :)
Nice to hear Armin and Nana again!
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On a different note I also enjoyed the previous episode, revisiting DS9 :)
Nice to hear Armin and Nana again!
And the sequence approaching the station was a nice homage!
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And the sequence approaching the station was a nice homage!
Love the part when Ransom told them to keep on circling the station.
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So uhh.. the NYCC gave us a new Picard trailer... and well this is a thing...
(https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Screen-Shot-2022-10-08-at-6.20.37-PM-900x549.png)
As someone whose a long time STO player who flies an Oddessy class, I cannot say how hyped I am for this
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The Picard trailer looks very exciting. A lot of fanservice.
It's just a shame that show expended all my good will.
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Thing is the Enterprise F was from Star Trek Online, whom its designer is the same as the current ship.
I have say I do have mix feelings on Titan A. Its has elements of the original Constitution Class (refit) which is fine...except this suppose to be modern Trek, that ships is clearly fan service to people miss the movie Enterprise. Hell, you can see the Phaser "gun port" emitters of the original ship vs Enterprise D's ringed Phase array. Don't get me wrong, I love having details done ot the ship, frankly Enterprise D looked goofy to me when I first saw it. Perhap's its organic look.
Enterprise F looks too much like Enterprise E for me think isn't a big deal.
Call me jaded but unless they came up with another innovations that make the ships stand out, its just same to me. At least Defiant stood out, with pulse phasers etc. Nothing changed.
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I for one really like the Titan-A design myself, though I'm also a fan of the original Shangri-La. My personal opinion, peak Trek aesthetic was the TMP era designs, especially the Reliant and Excelsior.
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Thing is the Enterprise F was from Star Trek Online, whom its designer is the same as the current ship.
I have say I do have mix feelings on Titan A. Its has elements of the original Constitution Class (refit) which is fine...except this suppose to be modern Trek, that ships is clearly fan service to people miss the movie Enterprise. Hell, you can see the Phaser "gun port" emitters of the original ship vs Enterprise D's ringed Phase array. Don't get me wrong, I love having details done ot the ship, frankly Enterprise D looked goofy to me when I first saw it. Perhap's its organic look.
Enterprise F looks too much like Enterprise E for me think its big deal.
Call me jaded but unless they came up with another innovations that make the ships stand out, its just same to me. At least Defiant stood out, with pulse phasers etc. Nothing changed.
the Titan A definatly has a retro design. I hope they explain the odd ball chocie to return to Phaser emitters over arrays but I don't expect it to. My guess though? Emitters actually hit harder, whereas arrays provide a betetr arc of fire. so a smaller design expected to be able to out manuver it's opponents may, in theory, be better off with emitters. my guess is it won't be explained and some fiction, novel comicbook, video game, whatever, will explain it
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On a different note I also enjoyed the previous episode, revisiting DS9 :)
Nice to hear Armin and Nana again!
I thought the episode was just kind of meh, beyond hearing the legacy actors again. The whole "you saved my ass" thing between Kira and Shaxs was overdone IMO and detracted from the rest. And sidelining Mariner in that horrible salon subplot, when she had seemingly served on DS9 before, well...
The Rutherford episode was more interesting and darker than most of what we've seen in LD so far. One thing that didn't make sense to me though is, if "Red" Rutherford wanted to defeat the current "Blue" persona for control of the body, why would he imagine something that would endanger the mindscape race for both of them? Unless that was based on a memory of something that actually happened--that during one of his illegal races through the Neutral Zone, "Red" had indeed been chased by a Warbird?
cheers,
Gabe
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So question is there appears to be repeat / refit of older designs in ST Picard, but I'm not sure if there an official release what they look like.
Reliant II Class
(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/pic-ships-reliant-1280x799.jpg)
Ross Class (not a Galaxy....)
(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/pic-ships-vanguard-1280x800.jpg)
Excelsior II Class (Repeat/Improved, not refit)
(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/pic-ships-excelsior-1280x800.jpg)
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About the STO designs used in PIC:
IG, its either refits, redesigns of vessels they used to use or just 'supposed to be' new designs.
IRL, the producers were being LAZY, making use of cheap, available CGI art in order to meet per-episode costs. I'm not poop-pooing that (it is imaginative, working within their wheelhouse using IP products they have access to, on the relatively cheap) but it is LAZY effort instead of doing it the honest way. As much as i hated the DIS ships from 'A vulcan Hello' they were definitely different (they were also NOT supposed to be 2260s era ships)...
It's been a long time since i last played STO: have they introdused any BoBWs ships IG?
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Well, I can look at these ships in a few ways:
First, in-universe, proven spaceframe designs are proven for a reason -- they work really well. There is no reason to think that an Reliant II class might exist, especially given how common the Reliant spaceframe was (there are non-canon TOS type reliant designs as well, like the Surya class).
Second, just like in SW, there is no reason that Trek cannot borrow from their EU to bring it forward into officialdom. They've already done this before: in Trek III we see a screen image of a Saladin-class Destroyer, on the Enterprise.
Third, you might call it lazy, but OTOH this is a shout out to the fans, in a show that is already dripping with nostalgia.
Damon.
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I think nostalgia can be too much. I still am person who thinks a design should have a purpose.
I just don't know if there any intention purpose. Your fleet can't be all different designs with the same jobs.
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I think its great that STO ships made it into Picard.
Its a combination of so two universes that support Star Trek. STO has done a lot to keep Star Trek going over the years when there was no Star Trek of any kind on TV or Movies.
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While I would have liked them to see them remodel a design or two in higher fidelity, I actually like them reusing the STO ships to just. Makes it feel more like one single universe. I will admit some of the designs from STO are a bit janky; less smooth and streamlined compared to what you'd usually get.
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I just don't know if there any intention purpose. Your fleet can't be all different designs with the same jobs.
This is a Battletech forum. With the number of 'Mech designs over the years, how many have substantial niche overlap with older designs that just needed a well-executed upgrade?
Cheers,
Gabe
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This is a Battletech forum. With the number of 'Mech designs over the years, how many have substantial niche overlap with older designs that just needed a well-executed upgrade?
Really, each house should have half dozen active mech designs in front line forces. Why would you need 6 different scout mechs? Or 5 different medium mechs? Of course there is the rationalization (Succession Wars, blah=blah), but the profusion of different designs was & is a gamey aspect to the game, rather than an adherence to what a real army would look like.
I'm not advocating for dropping mechs (well, not wholesale...), at least...
Damon.
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Really, each house should have half dozen active mech designs in front line forces. Why would you need 6 different scout mechs? Or 5 different medium mechs? Of course there is the rationalization (Succession Wars, blah=blah), but the profusion of different designs was & is a gamey aspect to the game, rather than an adherence to what a real army would look like.
I'm not advocating for dropping mechs (well, not wholesale...), at least...
Damon.
Points taken, but the proliferation of starship designs gives the Trek universe a similar sort of "gamey" feel. They exist just because a) they can and b) they look cool. Only way I can think of to rationalize it is that at some point, Starfleet appears to have decided that it was better to design whole new classes incorporating the latest tech advancements from the keel up, rather than subjecting existing ships to hugely extensive refits like the Enterprise (NCC-1701) got.
cheers,
Gabe
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Well, I can look at these ships in a few ways:
First, in-universe, proven spaceframe designs are proven for a reason -- they work really well. There is no reason to think that an Reliant II class might exist, especially given how common the Reliant spaceframe was (there are non-canon TOS type reliant designs as well, like the Surya class).
I think that was a typo on the OP's part. Memory Alpha has the Reliant class as being a late 24th/early 25th Century successor to the Miranda class (of which the USS Reliant in TWoK was a member).
Second, just like in SW, there is no reason that Trek cannot borrow from their EU to bring it forward into officialdom. They've already done this before: in Trek III we see a screen image of a Saladin-class Destroyer, on the Enterprise.
And that's also how they brought in the Luna class so we could see Riker's USS Titan in LD. It wasn't from STO, but it existed in written fiction, and it only needed one more step to become canon.
cheers,
Gabe
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I think that was a typo on the OP's part. Memory Alpha has the Reliant class as being a late 24th/early 25th Century successor to the Miranda class (of which the USS Reliant in TWoK was a member).
And that's also how they brought in the Luna class so we could see Riker's USS Titan in LD. It wasn't from STO, but it existed in written fiction, and it only needed one more step to become canon.
cheers,
Gabe
Pretty sure its canon now, Luna Class is canon now since they showed up in season 2 as part of the Stargazer task force to deal with the Borg.
(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/europa21-640x400.jpg)
The article was from March 2022. (https://trekmovie.com/2022/03/07/star-trek-picard-production-designer-details-starships-from-season-2-premiere/)
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Pretty sure its canon now, Luna Class is canon now since they showed up in season 2 as part of the Stargazer task force to deal with the Borg.
(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/europa21-640x400.jpg)
The article was from March 2022. (https://trekmovie.com/2022/03/07/star-trek-picard-production-designer-details-starships-from-season-2-premiere/)
showed up before that on lower decks in the form of the USS Titan
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Oh, and Carol Kane is playing Chief Engineer Pellia in SNW series 2
The newest occupant of the Defense Against the Dark Arts posting! ;D :D
cheers,
Gabe
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I actually like them reusing the STO ships to just. Makes it feel more like one single universe.
'it's also entirely fitting with the Trek idiom, like how almost every Federation ship in TNG was a reuse of a model originally built for the movies (up to and including a prototype of the Enterprise planned for Planet of the Giants, and the post-saucer destruction Enterprise from Star Trek III) or made out of Enterprise and Enterprise-D model kit parts. Or that alien ship models would be repainted, shot from different angles, or have bits added or removed to make them look different enough to stand in for another species' ship.
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Points taken, but the proliferation of starship designs gives the Trek universe a similar sort of "gamey" feel. They exist just because a) they can and b) they look cool. Only way I can think of to rationalize it is that at some point, Starfleet appears to have decided that it was better to design whole new classes incorporating the latest tech advancements from the keel up, rather than subjecting existing ships to hugely extensive refits like the Enterprise (NCC-1701) got.
cheers,
Gabe
even in real life navies the level of refit the NCC-1701 got is rare. the closest real life example I can find is the IJN's Kongo
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even in real life navies the level of refit the NCC-1701 got is rare. the closest real life example I can find is the IJN's Kongo
Also, the Akagi. Both were converted from other capital ships (battleship and battlecruiser respectively), to 3 flight deck carriers to single flight deck carriers.
Then, there was HMS Furious that was converted from “large light cruiser” to have a single flight deck aft, then to have a flight deck forward as well (with superstructure in between) to a flush flight deck carrier. The Glorious-class ships skipped the middle steps.
And then there was the Lexington-class for the US, converted from partially constructed battlecruisers to fleet carriers, and the Independence-class ships converted from light cruisers to light fleet carriers. Not to mention a lot of escort carriers were converted from freighters.
The IJN had some other classes of ships that were conversions from transports and the like to carriers. They actually designed several to be capable of the conversion with limited effort. Also, the Shinano, a conversion from a partially built Yamato-class battleship to the a carrier.
And the Italians had their Aquila, which was being converted from a liner (IIRC) to a carrier, but the conversion was never finished.
Ruger
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I have to say I was bit taken back with the retro designs. I think the Reliant II was big one for me. I always disliked the name Miranda being used as name her class. It just didn't fit, either case Ross class was totally off to me. The deflector dish doesn't look right on it for some reason. I have to admit that the Reflector Dish on the Galaxy Glass was lacking some character being flat and neolights, but it looks strange.
Either case hope Season III is good one.
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If you want to talk about radical refits, you can't get away from the older Italian BBs/Dns during WWII, which were stripped down to the deck, & radically rebuilt into modern ships.
Damon.
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As long as they look cool that's all I care about. As to the proliferation of ship classes one thing I would offer is that the Federation is made up of a lot of planets and a lot of races. I'm sure not every ship in the Federation is built at the Mars shipyards. Of course the real reason for ship class proliferation is just because they can. Back in the day they didn't have the budget to build all those models but now we have CGI so they can go a little nuts. 8)
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If you want to talk about radical refits, you can't get away from the older Italian BBs/Dns during WWII, which were stripped down to the deck, & radically rebuilt into modern ships.
Damon.
Which is pretty much what the Constitution class went through. About the only thing left from the TOS version was the main structural framework from the saucer and engineering hull.
https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/constitution-refit.htm
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One thing to keep in mind about ship architecture, is that for the wet navy, there is only so many ways you can design a ship. It has to have a hull of some sort, which has to be on the bottom, in the water. Everything above the deck could be configured (& has been) differently.
In space you don't have as many limitations, at least with the design assumptions of Trek. So different configurations that look quite different, can be used, either to exploit a design feature, to experiemnt with different design configurations, or for specific purposes.
But one thing that HAS been fairly common in Trek Feddie hull configurations, is the "Enterprise" style, which is shared with the Excelsior class, Enterprise C, D & E, Voyager, a few others that I am not remembering. Even the Disco from Discovery has a vaguely similar design architecture. Similarly, there are a few ship designs that have the Reliant type configuration.
There are a few odd-balls (Stargazer type ships, but those are really just a modification of the Enterprise-type configuration, or a "double Akira" type configuration. or the Oberth class, which is really just a compact Akira design, still within the bounds of the Enterprise type configuration).
Damon
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The Oberth-class has NOTHING in common with the Akira-class. The Oberth-class shares CONCEPTS with ships like, maybe the Defiant, maybe some of the flat types seen in DIS. The Akira, with its catamaran-style swept back nacelles, looked more like a modern NX-class (or the Fasa-era Chanley ([sp], the wide sweeping troop transport).
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The Oberth-class has NOTHING in common with the Akira-class. The Oberth-class shares CONCEPTS with ships like, maybe the Defiant, maybe some of the flat types seen in DIS. The Akira, with its catamaran-style swept back nacelles, looked more like a modern NX-class (or the Fasa-era Chanley ([sp], the wide sweeping troop transport).
The Oberth still has a saucer, two nacelles, and a secondary hull. Granted, the saucer is mounted BETWEEN the nacelles (and seemingly held in place by them), but the basic elements are still there.
Nearly all of Starfleet's ships are, in one way or another, elaborations of the NX class (or whatever followed it, using a secondary hull for the first time). With the number of member worlds in the Federation, it's really quite surprising that Starfleet hasn't incorporated more non-Terran design concepts into its starships. Case in point: the Vulcans have had considerably longer than Earth to study warp field geometries and effective engine and nacelle design. Why, then, are there no Starfleet ships that incorporate Vulcan ring-type nacelles?
cheers,
Gabe
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Case in point: the Vulcans have had considerably longer than Earth to study warp field geometries and effective engine and nacelle design. Why, then, are there no Starfleet ships that incorporate Vulcan ring-type nacelles?
cheers,
Gabe
Two possible reasons is;
1) Retro-Con territory, ST: Enterprise and First Contact was more involved in their early Vulcan ships. Which was introduced AFTER the fact Star Trek and some of it's spin offs/sequel television show/movie sequels came out. Their not going go back and explain it. Gene Roddenberry was bit stuck in his own ways of thinking how universe was by TNG, he wasn't likely going allow warp nacelles go beyond more than pair at a time or being weird shape. That was likely baked into Star Trek Bible for writers. That since been thrown out at some point to allow more creative things since Abram films came out and later shows. However, you seldom see the mentality changed for tv/film. None of the new Picard era ships use them, maybe 32n Century Discovery does. In canon I would wager that Vulcans wanted to conform with Federation with their new partners. It seem logical logistic-wise to keep the ship format, but I suspect that Vulcan controlled ships would be using this. Most Vulcans used mostly Star Fleet ships vs their own for official stuff.
2) Show Runners / Writers do what they want, I think the main reason is that producers of the show come up stuff that they think fits the show. Their not as restrictive on what kind of ships they want to use and what fits show look eye catching. Seriously, I do not believe importance of what a ships do matters to Star Trek now. Writers / Producers don't seem to see this as priority. Its about essetics not the nuts and bolts how a fictional fleet would work. (Lets have bunch shaped ships, throw at them.)
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Case in point: the Vulcans have had considerably longer than Earth to study warp field geometries and effective engine and nacelle design. Why, then, are there no Starfleet ships that incorporate Vulcan ring-type nacelles?
Well, that applies to most of the founding members of the Federation and other Alpha Quadrant Powers.
Humanity was one of the new kids on the block when they founded the Federation. We've seen Andorian and Tellerite ships, we saw Klingon ships, Romulan and ships and Xindi ships.
Many of those proved to be superior to Starfleet's latest drive.
Granted I don't know if or how much longer Vulcans might have had warp compared to them, but at the very least it is maybe notable that they are the only ones with the warp rings. Most everyone uses nacelles, even the Romulan ship which have an entirely different method of energy generation. Lots of warp capable ships don't even have nacelles.
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In the shared continuity novels, the ENT novels basically had human tech be the most compatible with the best of each race's hardware. Earth ships and warp drives could be combined more easily with vulcan tractor beams, tellarite shields, and andorian weaponry than refitting each race's ships, in part because of the way they intentionally tried to make their tech harder for their enemies to reverse engineer. Some issues had to be ironed out but human tech bridged the gap best. And since human ships could be more easily mass produced as well (largely because if the no-frills modular 'liberty ship' style designs that resulted from the romulan war), the combination made federation starfleet dominated by human built ships.
I like to think that by TNG, the tech stuff was no longer an issue, but human design approaches and styles had just proven to be the most flexible
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I like to think that by TNG, the tech stuff was no longer an issue, but human design approaches and styles had just proven to be the most flexible
I'd argue that by TNG it is much less clear what is Human tech, what is non-terrestrial tech, & what is generally Federation tech. I think by that time all three elements combined into the "look" we see in this era.
Damon.
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Are we not talking about Lower Decks? Because Lower Decks has been consistent A.F. and a new episode dropped today.
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I always forget the release date!
Damon
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Interesting episode. There's alot going on with Boimler, that really makes me feel bad for him. And seeing Tendi's wish come true was exciting, wonder if she'll get a spinoff or cameo much later in the franchise in that same role.
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Nearly all of Starfleet's ships are, in one way or another, elaborations of the NX class (or whatever followed it, using a secondary hull for the first time).
And here is the (non-canon) answer from Memory Beta:
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Columbia_class (https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Columbia_class)
Based on Doug Drexler's proposed refit of the NX-class if there had been a fifth season of ST:ENT.
It would be cool if one of these could show up in SNW in some capacity.
cheers,
Gabe
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And here is the (non-canon) answer from Memory Beta:
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Columbia_class (https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Columbia_class)
Based on Doug Drexler's proposed refit of the NX-class if there had been a fifth season of ST:ENT.
It would be cool if one of these could show up in SNW in some capacity.
cheers,
Gabe
a toy version (apparently one of the eaglemoss products) showed up in flashbacks in Picard Season 2, the bits where Picard remembers his mother.
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Lower Decks twist was something I should have been disappointed by, but I wasn't. It felt natural. Going to be interesting to see what happens next with her and the rest of the gang.
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If any Trek series has the right to declare that status quo is god, it's the goofy animated series but I hope they don't put things back to normal. These characters have been ensigns for three years (at least) and I think it's good for them to move on. Let Captain Freeman get promoted to Admiral, let Boilmer get his pip, let Tendi stand bridge shifts, and after they deal with that Section 31 plot which will inevitably include Rutherford and William Boimler, we can find out what's next for Rutherford too.
Bring on a new set of Lower Deckers with their own quirks who see LT Tendi as their nice but dangerous division head and think Bradward is the role model for their next step as officers.
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Bring on a new set of Lower Deckers with their own quirks who see LT Tendi as their nice but dangerous division head and think Bradward is the role model for their next step as officers.
I love this idea but i doubt it would ever happen because of RL.
To introduce new Ensigns would require either more voice-actors (or double duty the voice jobs like how most other animated shows work) both of which increases the desired or required payrolls (you know, the actual reasons that causes a show we all like to be cancelled, $$$)
I would imagine that the end of the series is already mapped out in how they want the main cast to be at the end of the series, so an Lt tendi is not unlikely as you think.
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Is that Section 31 show still going to happen? Haven't heard much about it for a couple of years.
As much as I like Michelle Yeoh I dont want that show to happen. Star Trek is supposed to be a positive look on the future...Section 31 has never been good in the Star Trek shows.
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Is that Section 31 show still going to happen? Haven't heard much about it for a couple of years.
As much as I like Michelle Yeoh I dont want that show to happen. Star Trek is supposed to be a positive look on the future...Section 31 has never been good in the Star Trek shows.
It hasn't been officially cancelled, but IIRC a year or two back someone in Paramount/whatever they're called this week said that they wouldn't be greenlighting any new Trek shows until they wrapped up one currently in production. Could be it'll replace Picard? I assume we'll find out early next year what will either way.
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honestly i suspect it'll never happen. unless the show is about starfleet dismantling section 31, it just wouldn't be compatible with the trek ideals. Section 31 is a lot like the Mirror Universe. it can be an interesting location to visit from time to time, but it works best as a contrast to the norm, rather than the focus of attention.
and to be honest, the way that they ended Empress Georgiou's storyline in DIS Season 3, it would be hard to justify having her character present.. the Prime timeline one is dead, the Mirror one went to the future then got returned to her own universe and time in a way that prevents her from just showing up in the prime timeline again easily. and i don't think that a show with the mirror section 31 of the Terran Empire would work well with the audience, even if they made section 31 a "good" 5th column within the empire.
that section 31 idea seems to have stemmed from the creative ideas of DIS season 1 and 2, and they've moved away from those for the most part.
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Section 31 has always been interesting concept and has lot of potential but honestly it has been rarely executed that well.
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I do like the idea of Section 31. It just shows in peace people will still do "questionable" things.
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Lower Decks twist was something I should have been disappointed by, but I wasn't. It felt natural. Going to be interesting to see what happens next with her and the rest of the gang.
And we have yet another automated, AI-driven ship. (Though this one at least has a Battletech connection!)
Really, Starfleet? Did you learn nothing from the incidents with Control and M5?
cheers,
Gabe
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And here is the (non-canon) answer from Memory Beta:
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Columbia_class (https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Columbia_class)
Based on Doug Drexler's proposed refit of the NX-class if there had been a fifth season of ST:ENT.
The entry also says that, following the founding of the Federation and the formation of an amalgamated Starfleet, this was the first ship to attempt to synthesize Human (ship superstructure and warp engine), Andorian (shields) and Vulcan (tractor beam) technologies. It took some time to get them all to mesh smoothly, as they initially interfered with each other's operability.
All in all, this is the class that looks like the logical progenitor of the Constitution-class design lineage. From my own background, I can think of all the odd DISCO S1 designs as being like products of a Cambrian explosion of starship design following the Federation's formation and working out the kinks of meshing the member worlds' technologies--a lot of weird, daring ideas were initially tried and fielded, but only a few spaceframe concepts ultimately endured and survived over the long term, serving as starting points for all that followed.
Speaking of which, has anybody figured out where exactly Main Engineering is on California-class ships? Is it integrated into the saucer like on the NX class, or is it actually in the reduced secondary hull with the main deflector? If so, that would be a pretty tortuous route between the bridge and Engineering, as you would have to go through the nacelles to access the saucer...
cheers,
Gabe
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the California class like the USS Cerritos? its in that pod between the nacelles. you can tell from the MSD of the ship, which they actually zoom in on a few times.
(https://i.imgur.com/Sym31gw.jpg)
you can see the top of the warp core there, though it is partly obscured by the nacelles in that display.
the Lower Decks sleeping corridor is located below and behind it.
this has also been confirmed by the ship's designer in interviews:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzrwJUMfOYk
Mike McMahan: The big thing we were thinking about when we were first designing why we put the engineering pod down there is, because it's a smaller ship, you don't want everybody crowded up against the warp core... The warp bubble can be extended and the deflector dish can be extended, the duties of that can be extended around the entire ship because it's a much smaller ship with a pretty hefty warp core. Because, when you're doing engineering stuff, you need to be able to have power. Now that power might not translate all the time to being the fastest or strongest ship in the fleet, but when you need to set up a power grid on a planet that you're doing second contact on... you need to be able to access greater power.
and yes, they travel through the nacelles:
The trick is that they travel through the nacelles. Travel through the struts themselves is not a big deal, but travel through the nacelles means there has to be a kind of protective layer around the turbolift shaft as it's going in there.
mind you, the danger is a lot less than people tend to assume. we've seen people entering into service areas inside of or beside active warp nacelles in TAS (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/One_of_Our_Planets_Is_Missing_(episode)) and TNG (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Eye_of_the_Beholder_(episode)), with no concern about any sort of radiation exposure (and in TNG the only danger was if you opened an inspection hatch and physically leaped into the plasma stream.) even in ENT (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Catwalk_(episode)) the only concern with being on the service catwalk within the nacelle when the drive was active was physical heat coming off the system becoming too high for prolonged human habitation. (and there it was only a concern because the crew couldn't leave the nacelle catwalk because of enviromental conditions, ironically, the nacelle actually provided greater shielding against radiation rather than being a radiation hazard like people assume)
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I didn't get a very good look at it because it was zipping around so much, but does anyone else here think the new Texas class introduced in the last episode of LD looks a lot like a souped-up NX class? It didn't seem to have a secondary hull and the saucer had an indentation where the main deflector was on the NX class. And those nacelles were pretty retro-looking too IMO.
cheers,
Gabe
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more like a souped up Nova class (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Nova_class). basically the "defiant pathfinder" concept from the DS9 technical manual, made into a drone. said "defiant pathfinder" was used as the base for the design of the Nova class research ship, both in universe and IRL. just with the engineering hull even more intergrated into the saucer.
the nacelles look like Galaxy style, or perhaps Akira (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Akira_class) style.
the Nova
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52455106206_d02c5a835e_o.jpg)
The Defiant Pathfinder:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52455376379_035d6a09d0_o.png)
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https://blog.trekcore.com/2022/10/star-trek-lower-decks-review-trusted-sources/ (scroll down for the pic i found on Google)
It looks like... similar to other secondary-lacking styles (but not much else). The Norway-class might be closest in terms of its flat underside (which might be a requirement in order to be able to recieve comms to control it)
But its gonna be a bust aka M5 anyone?
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That bit about how the idea of a reporter doing an expose not being used in trek... Thats true, but it was used in babylon 5, with episodes like S2EP15 "And Now for a Word", and S4EP8 "The Illusion of Truth".
In fact, the LD reporter had been tripping my 'reference' sense, until i remembered those two episodes of B5. In babylon 5 the reporters used little camera drones, and the tone felt similar to both.. "and now for a word" had the whole 'skeptical investigation of a new program' plot element, with the station itself being the focus, while "the illusion of truth" had the whole 'claiming to present an even handed story but goes out of their way to smear the subjects" bit.
And as far as the new class goes.. I'm going to guess that we're going to see a breakout of peanut hamper and the other evil AI from last season, who will hijack the new ships.
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I'm still tickled that Admrial Goodfriend was, in fact, not a good friend. ;D
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In fact, the LD reporter had been tripping my 'reference' sense, until i remembered those two episodes of B5. In babylon 5 the reporters used little camera drones, and the tone felt similar to both.. "and now for a word" had the whole 'skeptical investigation of a new program' plot element, with the station itself being the focus, while "the illusion of truth" had the whole 'claiming to present an even handed story but goes out of their way to smear the subjects" bit.
And did you notice the logo on her brooch?
Sly bit of brand placement there.
cheers,
Gabe
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And did you notice the logo on her brooch?
Sly bit of brand placement there.
cheers,
Gabe
They did that with the various reporters in the first episode as well.
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the badge design, other than the symbol, recalls the ones worn by the reporters at the start of ST:Generations. (one of which was labelled "CNN" :) )
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I'm still tickled that Admrial Goodfriend was, in fact, not a good friend. ;D
Think there's any chance he's actually the Badmiral behind the Rutherford story?
Cheers,
Gabe
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Think there's any chance he's actually the Badmiral behind the Rutherford story?
Cheers,
Gabe
*checks that box*
Almost a little too predictable, IMO.
cheers,
Gabe
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Ok, totally choked up at the mention of the USS Oakland and other ships named after Californian cities, especially at the end.
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Ok, totally choked up at the mention of the USS Oakland and other ships named after Californian cities, especially at the end.
You, ah, from Oakland?
(Not like Starfleet will ever have a Quebec class with a USS Montreal...)
(And the California class vs. the Texas class...a little too on point for current affairs, maybe?)
Anyway, I didn't think this two-part story was the best way to wrap up the season, despite bringing together some plot threads woven throughout. It felt like the scripts were repurposed from a first-season story that was partially updated but otherwise ignored a lot of the character development that had taken place, especially for Mariner and Ransom. Yes, Mariner did address her own role in the lingering distrust toward her but the resolution was still a little too pat. And I still didn't really get what Rutherford's role had been in developing the Texas--had he worked on both the AI AND the propulsion system just prior to his accident? And even after having his memory erased, receiving the implant, and developing a new, nicer personality, he redeveloped the AI for Badgey with the same flaws that caused the Texas ships to go rogue? (Those *software* engineering skills leave something to be desired...)
On the plus side, T'Lyn is finally on the Cerritos! Somehow, I see her and Tendi becoming pretty competitive with each other...
And now we have THREE evil AIs to consider for next season. A team-up of Badgey, Peanut Hamper, and AGIMUS?
cheers,
Gabe
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Can't wait for the next season. And T'Lyn was totally overdue for arrival. Oakland is my home, just really a pleasant surprise to have the name called out first, in a roll call like that.
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It's probably grasping at straws, but was West Covina included in the roll call as a Crazy Ex-Girlfriend shout out? Eugene Cordero was a semi-regular on it for the first couple of series and Gabrielle Ruiz, who plays T'Lynn and Castro was in almost every episode.
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The California class line-up was revealed rather quickly, as Boimler (Jack Quaid) rattles off the names of the ships as fast as he possibly can. In addition to the Cerritos, which is named after a city on the south edge of Los Angeles, we now know the Cali class Federation starships include the Oakland, Alhambra, San Diego, San Clemente, Sherman Oaks, Vacaville, Burbank, Fresno, Santa Monica, San Jose, Sacramento, Culver City, Anaheim, Riverside, Vallejo, West Covina, Pacific Palisades, Redding, Eureka, Mount Shasta, Merced, Carlsbad, and Inglewood. A shot of the Cali class approaching shows around 30 total ships, so there are few whose names Boimler didn't even catch.
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Alas, no El Cajon, but at least they got San Diego and Carlsbad mentioned in there.
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The California class line-up was revealed rather quickly, as Boimler (Jack Quaid) rattles off the names of the ships as fast as he possibly can. In addition to the Cerritos, which is named after a city on the south edge of Los Angeles, we now know the Cali class Federation starships include the Oakland, Alhambra, San Diego, San Clemente, Sherman Oaks, Vacaville, Burbank, Fresno, Santa Monica, San Jose, Sacramento, Culver City, Anaheim, Riverside, Vallejo, West Covina, Pacific Palisades, Redding, Eureka, Mount Shasta, Merced, Carlsbad, and Inglewood. A shot of the Cali class approaching shows around 30 total ships, so there are few whose names Boimler didn't even catch.
i wonder if that was all the Cali-class in the sense that it is all those still in service, or if it just represented all the ships in service close enough to respond in time? i like to think the latter to be honest, and that there are more out there that were just too far away to ride to the rescue. which would help establish the idea that they are a backbone of the day to day work of starfleet (an organization that has thousands of ships), despite how little prestige they get. and it isn't like california doesn't have plenty of towns and landmarks to use for names.
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The California class line-up was revealed rather quickly, as Boimler (Jack Quaid) rattles off the names of the ships as fast as he possibly can. In addition to the Cerritos, which is named after a city on the south edge of Los Angeles, we now know the Cali class Federation starships include the Oakland, Alhambra, San Diego, San Clemente, Sherman Oaks, Vacaville, Burbank, Fresno, Santa Monica, San Jose, Sacramento, Culver City, Anaheim, Riverside, Vallejo, West Covina, Pacific Palisades, Redding, Eureka, Mount Shasta, Merced, Carlsbad, and Inglewood. A shot of the Cali class approaching shows around 30 total ships, so there are few whose names Boimler didn't even catch.
The Sunnydale was covering a hellmouth...
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Sorry if this coming out of left field...I've not been able to watch the show. Ive seen bits and pieces of it. They're introducing M5 like AIs on the ships? Hope not like ShipGirls or something.
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Sorry if this coming out of left field...I've not been able to watch the show. Ive seen bits and pieces of it. They're introducing M5 like AIs on the ships? Hope not like ShipGirls or something.
Yes they did introduce such an AI in the last two episodes of LD, with an interface that even strongly resembled that of the M5 from "The Ultimate Computer". All the ships that were equipped with it were destroyed, through it took the Cerritos ejecting her warp core to take out two of them and the combined efforts of the entire California class to handle the last one, which seemed to be the control ship.
The AI was based on the same unstable code Rutherford used to develop the Badgey, so when it was granted full autonomy (the equivalent of removing the holodeck safety protocols) it of course immediately became homicidal.
(Is it really necessary to spoiler-tag these things now?)
cheers,
Gabe
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I liked the paintjobs on the Calis :)
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Yes they did introduce such an AI in the last two episodes of LD, with an interface that even strongly resembled that of the M5 from "The Ultimate Computer". All the ships that were equipped with it were destroyed, through it took the Cerritos ejecting her warp core to take out two of them and the combined efforts of the entire California class to handle the last one, which seemed to be the control ship.
The AI was based on the same unstable code Rutherford used to develop the Badgey, so when it was granted full autonomy (the equivalent of removing the holodeck safety protocols) it of course immediately became homicidal.
(Is it really necessary to spoiler-tag these things now?)
we've seen an number of rogue AI's so far over the last few seasons. Peanut Hamper being the most recent, but there is also AGIMUS (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/AGIMUS) last season, and Badgey (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Badgey) in season 1.
plus we've seen the federation has a whole dedicated warehouse of crazy AI (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Self-Aware_Megalomaniacal_Computer_Storage) they've encountered.
frankly given the way they left those beings, i was expecting the Texas class to be hijacked by one or more of them, instead of what we got. makes me suspect that it's going to become a major plotline in season 4 onwards. especially given the teaser after the credits in the finale.
speaking of badgey and season 1.. i wonder if the reason that Rutherford started getting his memories back over season 2 and 3 is because he got a replacement implant after Shax ripped off his original one at the end of season 1? that the original one had hardware designed to help keep his old memories from resurfacing (since it is known from various TNG and DS9 episodes that wiping memories is unreliable, and eventually the old memories resurface) and the replacement is a more 'stock' model, which is why his memories (and old personality) began to manifest themselves.
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speaking of badgey and season 1.. i wonder if the reason that Rutherford started getting his memories back over season 2 and 3 is because he got a replacement implant after Shax ripped off his original one at the end of season 1? that the original one had hardware designed to help keep his old memories from resurfacing (since it is known from various TNG and DS9 episodes that wiping memories is unreliable, and eventually the old memories resurface) and the replacement is a more 'stock' model, which is why his memories (and old personality) began to manifest themselves.
The second implant was actually Rutherford's second "reset". He had his memories erased after the accident, but also forgot everything again after the first implant was forcibly removed. He didn't remember Tendi anymore, so why would he still remember anything about Badgey or that code base?
cheers,
Gabe
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https://trekmovie.com/2022/11/06/dark-star-trek-prodigy-theory-about-zero-connects-the-borg-from-voyager-to-picard-and-beyond/?fbclid=IwAR20apXyS4FcjVcKjiD-CjdAgkYXj8kx0ZxB4HGIAIVYkV2KgjVeA5Ezy9s
a very interesting theory from Trek Movie...
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Awwww, wasn’t that last episode of Prodigy just the cutest?
(As well as being the most lore-heavy for old-school fans)
LIVE LOGS AND PROPER!! ;D :D
Cheers,
Gabe
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Why thank you Mr. Sprok.
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Why thank you Mr. Sprok.
*CLAPS* Some amazeballs episode today. They (PRO) managed to troll but emote such a wonderful episode...
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Well I'm going to necro a bit since I didn't comment on the last half of LD season 3 or Pro.
i wonder if that was all the Cali-class in the sense that it is all those still in service, or if it just represented all the ships in service close enough to respond in time? i like to think the latter to be honest, and that there are more out there that were just too far away to ride to the rescue. which would help establish the idea that they are a backbone of the day to day work of starfleet (an organization that has thousands of ships), despite how little prestige they get. and it isn't like california doesn't have plenty of towns and landmarks to use for names.
I'd also like to think it was just what Mariner was able to round up on such short notice; I've seen the suggestion that all the Cali's were being recalled with the Texas class supplanting them, but you are right that even then there could be another hundred Cali's still out all over the Beta Quadrant.
In any event, what I probably liked most about this Calvary Rescue is that the Workplace Comedy Cartoon remembers that Starfleet is a FLEET!
It's both an organization that stands for a grander purpose than ourselves AND that, when we come together collectively, we can achieve far more than just the sum of our parts.
They're a UNITED Federation of PLANETS, and problems don't always have to be dealt with via "One Riot, One Starship" methodology.
When you are a Wagon Train to the Stars, sometimes you can Circle the Wagons!
Since the show heavily implies Carol or her husband were a nameless background Officer on the Enterprise D, I've always envisioned a similar scene where various D alumni arrive en-masse to aid the Cerritos using Carol's own "We're Starfleet damn it!" as a rallying cry, but I'm not sure it could actually top this since Lower Decks has already done basically the same thing, organically, WITHIN it's own Canon!
we've seen an number of rogue AI's so far over the last few seasons. Peanut Hamper being the most recent, but there is also AGIMUS (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/AGIMUS) last season, and Badgey (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Badgey) in season 1.
plus we've seen the federation has a whole dedicated warehouse of crazy AI (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Self-Aware_Megalomaniacal_Computer_Storage) they've encountered.
frankly given the way they left those beings, i was expecting the Texas class to be hijacked by one or more of them, instead of what we got. makes me suspect that it's going to become a major plotline in season 4 onwards. especially given the teaser after the credits in the finale.
Yeah, I have a bad feeling this is to give greater legitimacy to the Starfleet ban on Synthetic Lifeforms from Picard Season 1, but all opening that can of worms is going to do is highlight the huge difference in quality between the stellar Lower Decks writing crew and the near Syfy tier writing of that first season.
Seriously, why would a post-TNG Federation of all organizations go and create a SLAVE RACE and for all reasons to do menial CONSTRUCTION labor?!
You are a civilization that has Energy-to-Matter Conversion as a long proven technology; YOU CAN LITERALLY CTRL C CTRL V WHOLE DAMN STARSHIPS, CREWS INCLUDED IF YOU'RE WILLING!
Lower Decks even showed they gave sufficiently developed POWER DRILLS (Exocomps) full Sapient Rights!!!
Honestly I'd rather the Texas Class, which does have plenty of legitimate use for Starfleet, be used as the means to bring back Robert Picardo in his role as "The Doctor" or rather, "Emergency Command Hologram."
Awwww, wasn’t that last episode of Prodigy just the cutest?
(As well as being the most lore-heavy for old-school fans)
LIVE LOGS AND PROPER!! ;D :D
I think Bones would be happy his counterpart didn't exaggerate any of his mannerisms, since they're both just simple country doctors after all!
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Yeah, I have a bad feeling this is to give greater legitimacy to the Starfleet ban on Synthetic Lifeforms from Picard Season 1, but all opening that can of worms is going to do is highlight the huge difference in quality between the stellar Lower Decks writing crew and the near Syfy tier writing of that first season.
Seriously, why would a post-TNG Federation of all organizations go and create a SLAVE RACE and for all reasons to do menial CONSTRUCTION labor?!
You are a civilization that has Energy-to-Matter Conversion as a long proven technology; YOU CAN LITERALLY CTRL C CTRL V WHOLE DAMN STARSHIPS, CREWS INCLUDED IF YOU'RE WILLING!
Lower Decks even showed they gave sufficiently developed POWER DRILLS (Exocomps) full Sapient Rights!!!
Honestly I'd rather the Texas Class, which does have plenty of legitimate use for Starfleet, be used as the means to bring back Robert Picardo in his role as "The Doctor" or rather, "Emergency Command Hologram."
I'm one of the few who actually thought PIC season 1 was actually more cohesive than season 2 (at least after episode 3) but I guess there's just no accounting for taste.
You're definitely not the first to note that the Federation seems to have a continuous need for slave labour. It's a whole other debate as to *WHY*, and I'm not sure which forum rules I'd be violating for actually giving voice to speculation in that direction.
ST:VOY explored this aspect a bit more deeply; that if you're unable/unwilling to do it with your flesh-and-blood citizens, you create artificial workers. The Synths weren't even the first attempt; all the EMHs based on Herman Zimmerman (outside of the Doctor on Voyager) were repurposed to serve as asteroid miners when they were deemed to have personalities unfit for medical service. Thing is, even though they were AIs with hologram bodies, they were still sentient and therefore deserving of rights. Then there were those holograms Janeway gave to the Hirogen, who wanted something more than to just be targets for hunting, and were willing and able to fight back.
So you can't have a mass-produced labour force of sentient beings, even if they're just AIs with bodies of photons and force fields. To try to get around that issue, the Synths seen in ST:PIC (known as the A500, according to Memory Alpha) were specifically designed to be non-sentient, so that nobody could be accused of creating a race of Datas to do the work that was too dirty or dangerous for organic beings. (That they were vulnerable to outside manipulation is beside the point) That obviously opens up the question of how the Federation was able to meet its mass labour needs after the Synths "rebelled" and the overly-broad ban went into effect.
As for being able to replicate whole starships, there are clearly limits to that technology, otherwise they'd already be doing it.** As it is, I feel Starfleet recovers entirely too quickly from major losses like Wolf 359 and the Dominion War (and the Klingon War from DISCO, if you want to add that in). Maybe by the 32nd Century (DISCO season 3 onwards) they've resolved even that.
**Arguably, they seem to have done just that for the season 1 finale of ST:PIC, where it looked like the entire Enquiry class (the Zheng He and her sister ships) showed up to face the Romulans over Coppelius.
If you're going to start replicating whole people too, that opens up an ethical quagmire even deeper than the one with the Synths. Trek just scratched the surface of that with the transporter clone stories. I think Doctor Who actually addressed this better than Trek with the two-part Eleventh Doctor story "The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People"; what do you do when you make supposedly disposable copies of people who believe they're the real thing and want their own independent existence?
As for the last point, having an AI-run ship commanded by a hologram, that still gets back to the point of disposable artificial lifeforms with sentience. Let's say that Starfleet goes ahead and does just what you suggest. The next time hostilities with the Dominion flare up and a swarm of Jem'Hadar warships starts streaming through the Bajoran wormhole, who's your first choice to throw onto the front lines? Your ships crewed by squelchy, hard-to-replace organics, or your AI-driven ships? If the hologram commanders are sentient, they have rights and they're still conscious beings being sent to slaughter (even if they've been programmed to be fanatically loyal to the Federation). For that plan to work and still hold the moral high ground, it has to be non-sentient AIs directing those ships.
cheers,
Gabe
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You're definitely not the first to note that the Federation seems to have a continuous need for slave labour. It's a whole other debate as to *WHY*, and I'm not sure which forum rules I'd be violating for actually giving voice to speculation in that direction.
I mean I am willing to risk it, just because of how NONSENSICAL the notion is...
ST:VOY explored this aspect a bit more deeply; that if you're unable/unwilling to do it with your flesh-and-blood citizens, you create artificial workers. The Synths weren't even the first attempt; all the EMHs based on Herman Zimmerman (outside of the Doctor on Voyager) were repurposed to serve as asteroid miners when they were deemed to have personalities unfit for medical service. Thing is, even though they were AIs with hologram bodies, they were still sentient and therefore deserving of rights. Then there were those holograms Janeway gave to the Hirogen, who wanted something more than to just be targets for hunting, and were willing and able to fight back.
So you can't have a mass-produced labour force of sentient beings, even if they're just AIs with bodies of photons and force fields. To try to get around that issue, the Synths seen in ST:PIC (known as the A500, according to Memory Alpha) were specifically designed to be non-sentient, so that nobody could be accused of creating a race of Datas to do the work that was too dirty or dangerous for organic beings. (That they were vulnerable to outside manipulation is beside the point) That obviously opens up the question of how the Federation was able to meet its mass labour needs after the Synths "rebelled" and the overly-broad ban went into effect.
Well this is more an artifact of The Doctor and other "holoprogram characters" being portrayed by Human Actors; People mistake the PROJECTION of Light and Forcefields as what the "Program" is, but it's really only an interface for a stupidly complex computer program able to attain sapience given the right parameters.
It's sometimes joked that the Ent-D Computer Core was in fact Sapient, if only because Professor Moriarty was an accidental creation of it and a system can't contain a more complex system inside of it.
The Doctor's "brothers" being used as manual labor makes for decent character pathos, but falls apart under logical scrutiny:
Namely, Holograms need a system of Light and Forcefield projectors to BE projected, and until The Doctor specifically received a Mobile Hologram Emitter FROM THE FUTURE, he was restricted to areas in Voyager that had such capabilities.
If you already have Forcefields capable of physically manipulating material, like grinding up rock to extract ore, it's actually stupidly inefficient for it to project a Human shaped field of force to do that in the first place.
And that's JUST "Tractor Beam" technology of presumably manipulating mass, Transporters and Replicators run on Mass-to-Energy AND Energy-to-Mass conversions!
Replicators aren't simply very advanced Three-Dimensional Printers either, but technically capable of Molecular TRANSMUTATION!
Sure, it's not a wise move to try and use your average food replicator to perform alchemy, but by the theory on how that technology work it IS possible.
This is also why the supposedly non-sentient A500 Synths are a baffling move even ignoring their capacity for independent thought and/or awareness; What good are a bunch of generic humanoid bodies going to be for building a Starship?!
The Next Generation actually did a very good introduction on the concept of Sapient Machines and their abuse with "The Quality of Life."
The Exocomps of the Episode were basically smart drones; They were only suppose to "learn" how to do their jobs and self-modify accordingly, but an inadvertant side effect of said self-modification inadvertently boot-strapped them into Self-awareness.
What was basically a hexagonal computer crate with a repulsor lift and replicator accidentally became an artificial life form the Federation recognized as a Sapient Species, so why would they go and build an army of cheap Data knock-offs when simple assembly automation is literally what you want done.
As for being able to replicate whole starships, there are clearly limits to that technology, otherwise they'd already be doing it.** As it is, I feel Starfleet recovers entirely too quickly from major losses like Wolf 359 and the Dominion War (and the Klingon War from DISCO, if you want to add that in). Maybe by the 32nd Century (DISCO season 3 onwards) they've resolved even that.
**Arguably, they seem to have done just that for the season 1 finale of ST:PIC, where it looked like the entire Enquiry class (the Zheng He and her sister ships) showed up to face the Romulans over Coppelius.
I mean sure, even an Industrial Replicator would be too limited to materialize an ENTIRE ship, but all they really needed was a quickly assembled space frame capable of Life Support and withstanding the stress of at least two trips by Warp, basically just a box with Nacelles.
The Ent-D can take on 15 times her normal crew and passenger complement of just over a thousand in just such an emergency situation, and they were apparently mass producing stripped down Galaxies for the Dominion War!
As for the last point, having an AI-run ship commanded by a hologram, that still gets back to the point of disposable artificial lifeforms with sentience. Let's say that Starfleet goes ahead and does just what you suggest. The next time hostilities with the Dominion flare up and a swarm of Jem'Hadar warships starts streaming through the Bajoran wormhole, who's your first choice to throw onto the front lines? Your ships crewed by squelchy, hard-to-replace organics, or your AI-driven ships? If the hologram commanders are sentient, they have rights and they're still conscious beings being sent to slaughter (even if they've been programmed to be fanatically loyal to the Federation). For that plan to work and still hold the moral high ground, it has to be non-sentient AIs directing those ships.
Well I'd like to point out that we're not putting the Doctor in there to be DISPOSABLE, rather we'd be making use of his more robust artificial nature with an equally robust Starship mostly to do regular Starfleet stuff.
Beta Canon has him become recognized as a Starfleet Officer, so he wouldn't be in there simple as some kind of Operating System, but as it's Captain and/or Crew!
It would be their decision to enter into such a conflict like any other member of Starfleet, they'd just have much better chances at surviving by essentially black-boxing themselves for recovery.
I figure the Doctor would rather just be going around doing regular Starfleet Medical stuff, but comically using the Texas Class as essentially a giant Mobile Emitter.
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I mean I am willing to risk it, just because of how NONSENSICAL the notion is...
You go ahead, I've already got a couple of strikes this year. (Although, I do know what I want to say)
The Doctor's "brothers" being used as manual labor makes for decent character pathos, but falls apart under logical scrutiny:
Namely, Holograms need a system of Light and Forcefield projectors to BE projected, and until The Doctor specifically received a Mobile Hologram Emitter FROM THE FUTURE, he was restricted to areas in Voyager that had such capabilities.
If you already have Forcefields capable of physically manipulating material, like grinding up rock to extract ore, it's actually stupidly inefficient for it to project a Human shaped field of force to do that in the first place.
And that's JUST "Tractor Beam" technology of presumably manipulating mass, Transporters and Replicators run on Mass-to-Energy AND Energy-to-Mass conversions!
For it to work, the mines would have to be equipped with a grid of holoemitters. It wouldn't need to be as sophisticated as a holodeck because it would only be the humanoid holograms moving around in a defined real space, there wouldn't need to be simulation of movement via scrolling and redefining the horizon (actually covered surprisingly well by Rok-Tahk in the last episode of ST:PRO).
As to why do it in the first place, they probably arrived at this as a compromise, since simply deleting all the programs would be equivalent to a mass execution (remember, sentience!) May as well try to get some use out of them where their intelligence could be put to use.
Replicators aren't simply very advanced Three-Dimensional Printers either, but technically capable of Molecular TRANSMUTATION!
Sure, it's not a wise move to try and use your average food replicator to perform alchemy, but by the theory on how that technology work it IS possible.
That part they've got down by the 32nd Century. They're able to turn feces into apples!
This is also why the supposedly non-sentient A500 Synths are a baffling move even ignoring their capacity for independent thought and/or awareness; What good are a bunch of generic humanoid bodies going to be for building a Starship?!
Exactly as good as real humanoid bodies, in fact better because they have the physical advantages that we've seen from Data, Lore, and Dahj/Soji. But they'll never complain about working overtime or being sent into potentially hazardous situations. (And that in a nutshell is what I wish I could get at in more elaborate form.)
The Next Generation actually did a very good introduction on the concept of Sapient Machines and their abuse with "The Quality of Life."
The Exocomps of the Episode were basically smart drones; They were only suppose to "learn" how to do their jobs and self-modify accordingly, but an inadvertant side effect of said self-modification inadvertently boot-strapped them into Self-awareness.
What was basically a hexagonal computer crate with a repulsor lift and replicator accidentally became an artificial life form the Federation recognized as a Sapient Species, so why would they go and build an army of cheap Data knock-offs when simple assembly automation is literally what you want done.
Like I said, because they can't say no. Even in that episode, we saw that the Exocomps already had a tendency toward emphasizing self-preservation. Allow that to develop further, and you end up with Peanut Hamper. Just like with organic beings, once they become really sentient, some of them will be more selfish and individualistic, and others will have more of a sense of group duty and self-sacrifice.
I mean sure, even an Industrial Replicator would be too limited to materialize an ENTIRE ship, but all they really needed was a quickly assembled space frame capable of Life Support and withstanding the stress of at least two trips by Warp, basically just a box with Nacelles.
Such a thing already existed. It's called the Defiant class. ;D
Well I'd like to point out that we're not putting the Doctor in there to be DISPOSABLE, rather we'd be making use of his more robust artificial nature with an equally robust Starship mostly to do regular Starfleet stuff.
Beta Canon has him become recognized as a Starfleet Officer, so he wouldn't be in there simple as some kind of Operating System, but as it's Captain and/or Crew!
Then...why do you ever need an organic crew at all, for any ship? Now we're back to the same dilemma from "The Ultimate Computer".
The Doctor becomes the M5 done right.
I figure the Doctor would rather just be going around doing regular Starfleet Medical stuff, but comically using the Texas Class as essentially a giant Mobile Emitter.
But he would still be confined to the ship (like Holo Janeway on ST:VOY); the mobile emitter allows him to go on away missions.
cheers,
Gabe
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Haven't piped up much on the latest batch of Prodigy episodes. Been mostly pretty good ("All The World's A Stage" is *classic* ;) ) but the bit about Arik Soong was just wrong. He couldn't have defected from the Federation because there was no Federation when he was pulling his stunts with the Augments.
EDIT: I know this is a supposed to be a kids' show, but they didn't they kind of soft-peddle the result of unfiltered exposure to a Medusan?
Remember what that did to Spock and that Marvick guy in "Is There In Truth No Beauty"? The Diviner should be a raving lunatic, running around attacking people at random?
EDIT2: They didn't get into Rok's actual origin. What did she do BEFORE ending up in that arena show?
And when exactly did the hive mind that Zero was part of leave the Alpha (Beta?) Quadrant, since Zero was still unaware of the Federation until coming on board the Protostar?
And that Dr. Jago...despite the visual resemblance to Maz Kanata from the third Star Wars trilogy, her personality, morals (or lack thereof) and line of work are more reminiscent of Dr. Gross from _Adventure Time_.
I wanted to see more of Okona and Jellico. And man, does Robert Beltran really need some lines as Chakotay.
Just want to say...there is something about the Vau N'Akat that bugs me. Here we have a species that is more advanced than the Federation in many ways and has warp-capable ships, yet somehow remained isolated to the point that they believed they were the only intelligent species in the Universe? And started a devastating civil war because they basically couldn't deal with finding out they weren't? They even somehow escaped the attention of the Borg! Solum (their homeworld) must really be in the back of beyond even by Delta Quadrant standards!
There is one thing about Chakotay's plan to hide the Protostar from The Order that doesn't seem to add up. So he sent the ship back in time through that wormhole, allegedly without a crew...but how to make sure that it would end up hidden, out of sight, in someplace like Tars Lamora? I think there had to be one crewmember, in addition to Holo Janeway, there to guide the ship...and I'd bet anything that crewmember was an adult of Murf's species--Murf's asexual "parent", as it were. How else to explain how Murf was the only (non-synthetic) living thing on the ship when the kids found it?
cheers,
Gabe
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notice that they never said Arik soong did it. just that some of soong's protégés did it. so we aren't looking at Data's thrice great grandfather here, but rather the students of the people he taught his skills, ideas, and mindset to. odds are there has been an entire underground movement working to continue what they believe was his great works. frankly i wouldn't be surprised if such disciples weren't behind the clinics that produced Julian bashir and the Jack pack of jack (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Jack_(24th_century)), Lauren (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Lauren), Patrick (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Patrick), and Serina. (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Sarina_Douglas) i also suspect the researchers at the Darwin Genetic Researh Station (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Darwin_Genetic_Research_Station) might have included a few, given their objectives and rhetoric.
And when exactly did the hive mind that Zero was part of leave the Alpha (Beta?) Quadrant, since Zero was still unaware of the Federation until coming on board the Protostar?
the ship they were on dates back at least to the mid 23rd century, but it is possible that the crew of that ship just didn't tell Zero much about their origins. the Medusans weren't really part of the federation, thats why they sent Kollos to be an ambassador. their homeworld was just surrounded by federation territory.
also the reason that the diviner wasn't effected as badly bwas because the Vau N'kat are more mentally able to handle the sight.. in supplimental materials for the show, the Prodigy Logs (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_Prodigy_Logs), when the crew of the dauntless studied the Diviner on leaving Tars Lamora, they mentioned he had physiology enabling mental abilities similar to Zalkonians (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Zalkonian). who were a race encounted by the Enterprise D, who were in the process of developing into non-corporeal beings. (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/John_Doe)
given that Medusans have now been established to be non-coporeal beings in prodigy (as the TOS episode was vague about it), it makes sense that a species that is well on its way to developing the mental states and abilities allowing for non-corporeal existence would be less affected. (in fact, the visual effect used for the ascended "john doe" in the episode is very similar to the visual design used for the Medusans in prodigy, though presumably medusans being an older non-corporeal race they are more powerful and thus dangerous to view)
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notice that they never said Arik soong did it. just that some of soong's protégés did it. so we aren't looking at Data's thrice great grandfather here, but rather the students of the people he taught his skills, ideas, and mindset to. odds are there has been an entire underground movement working to continue what they believe was his great works.
I understood that; I was just taking issue with the description of him having "defected from the Federation", which was inaccurate. Defected from United Earth would be more like it.
Whoever his protégés were, they would of course want to pursue those goals well outside of Federation oversight.
(Or go to the Klingons to do it.)
also the reason that the diviner wasn't effected as badly bwas because the Vau N'kat are more mentally able to handle the sight.. in supplimental materials for the show, the Prodigy Logs (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_Prodigy_Logs), when the crew of the dauntless studied the Diviner on leaving Tars Lamora, they mentioned he had physiology enabling mental abilities similar to Zalkonians (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Zalkonian). who were a race encounted by the Enterprise D, who were in the process of developing into non-corporeal beings. (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/John_Doe)
given that Medusans have now been established to be non-coporeal beings in prodigy (as the TOS episode was vague about it), it makes sense that a species that is well on its way to developing the mental states and abilities allowing for non-corporeal existence would be less affected. (in fact, the visual effect used for the ascended "john doe" in the episode is very similar to the visual design used for the Medusans in prodigy, though presumably medusans being an older non-corporeal race they are more powerful and thus dangerous to view)
Well, we'll see how this plays out, if the remaining arc is basically a remix of that TNG episode "Transfigurations". But the Diviner did some really reprehensible things; you saw how he ran his operation on Tars Lamora. He doesn't deserve to ascend to a non-corporeal state!
cheers,
Gabe
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Wow, didn’t Brett Gray and Kate Mulgrew both do fantastic jobs inhabiting each other’s characters! Honestly, I didn’t think Mulgrew had it in her to do that. I thought they pulled off the body swap thing better than in “Spock Amok”.
And Janeway (in Dal’s body) actually made reference to her experience in ST:VOY “Threshold “! You would think that she (and especially Mulgrew) would want to forget about that as much as possible…that story is consistently ranked one of the worst not just for VOY, but all of Trek…
Why do I get the sinking feeling we’re going to see the genesis of the awful copy-and paste armada we saw in the finale of PIC S1? “OK, so our fleet got infected by an alien virus and tore itself to shreds. Good thing we’ve been working on this new class that’s fast, hits hard, and can be mass-produced on a scale like nothing we’ve done before!”
(Or, in BT terms, like a Sovetskii Soyuz :)) )
Cheers,
Gabe
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Wow, not looking too good for Starfleet now, is it?
Speaking of which, what's the time gap between Prodigy and Lower Decks? Thought that what just transpired on PRO might have something to do with the new ship classes seen in LD (except for California-class ships, which are already supposed to be old).
Cheers,
Gabe
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Sounds like writers felt it was time to make the people you work for the bad guys. Roddenberry must be turning in his grave. xp
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Wow, not looking too good for Starfleet now, is it?
Speaking of which, what's the time gap between Prodigy and Lower Decks? Thought that what just transpired on PRO might have something to do with the new ship classes seen in LD (except for California-class ships, which are already supposed to be old).
Cheers,
Gabe
Prodigy starts about three years after Lower Decks, so these events are taking place in and around series 3 and 4 of LDS
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given that we see a Sovereign class with the NCC-1701-E registration, i do think we're seeing why Picard season 3 is going to be showing us the Enterprise-F..
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Sounds like writers felt it was time to make the people you work for the bad guys. Roddenberry must be turning in his grave. xp
or they are trying to explain how bad things are for Star Fleet aka PIC?
I hope not...
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trek has had a long history of Badmiral's, if anything newer trek has just stopped trying to pretend they're all one offs.
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So many timelines in current Trek right now, its hard to keep up and track.
Disco was before TOS now way in the future.
Picard was 20 years after voyager
Lower Decks is a couple years after Voyager
Prodigy is a couple years after Lower Decks.
SNW is before TOS.
Just pick one!!!! Keep the story moving forward in my opinion.
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Prodigy starts about three years after Lower Decks, so these events are taking place in and around series 3 and 4 of LDS
So, there *should* be California, Parliament, Obena, and Luna-class ships getting chewed up in the carnage.
Could've thrown in some Galaxies and Nebulas too. They already had a model for the former, from the Kobayashi Maru episode...
And some Excelsiors. Damn thing's the Aegis class of Trek.
cheers,
Gabe
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Sounds like writers felt it was time to make the people you work for the bad guys. Roddenberry must be turning in his grave. xp
Don't understand what you mean here...the villains of ST:PRO are quite clearly the vengeful Vau N'Akat. I wouldn't say Jellico is a Badmiral, he's just such an authoritarian, by-the-book martinet that he sent the fleet blundering right into the Vau N'Akat trap.
cheers,
Gabe
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Sounds like writers felt it was time to make the people you work for the bad guys. Roddenberry must be turning in his grave. xp
Why? it wouldn't be the FIRST time, or the second, or the third, or the fourth...
INCLUDING at least one episode of season 1 of TOS when Roddenberry was not only still alive, but still running the show.
Going back to ToS and there were one or two.
Going forward to DS9 and there's the whole mess with Admiral Leyton, not to mention multiple situations that were escalated blithely by Starfleet Command not grasping the situation (much of the Maquis storyline prior to the Dominion, and during the Dominion...)
Shall I go on?
Starfleet is not a realm of perfect heroes.
Let me repeat that.
Starfleet is not the realm of Perfect Heroes.
Admirals get suborned, replaced, and make mistakes, So do Captains.
They also misjudge situations, misinterpret information, zig when they should have zagged, impose rulings that sabotage the heroes quite by mistake, Blunder, screw up, post impossible policies that still have to be carried out, and make unreasonable demands...
and this provides the heroes with something called 'complications' and 'complexity' and 'more fleshed out storylines than show up and kill all the bad guys or show up and win all the arguments without effort.
Can starfleet command screw the pooch? Oh YOU BETCHA! and without it, without that fog of war/misinformed bungling/outright sabotage, the whole thing loses a lot of depth and much of the drama.
It becomes less real, easier to see that it's fiction while you're watching it, snaps the suspenders of the disbelief and cheapens the product when you make it where Starfleet (and the good guys tm) are always right, and never catastrophically ****** up.
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A really good example in TOS was "the enterprise incident", where starfleet command gave kirk secret orders to pretend to ve crazy, take his ship into the neutral zone, create an international incident, and steal a cloaking device... All without allowing him to actually inform said crew about the mission or that the secret orders existed at all.
It was a bad plan, could easily have resulted on the loss of the ship and crew, or sparked an actual shooting war against an enemy that was now not only using a technology that couldn't be counered (cloaking) but which was also rapidly uparming itself with new ships that had already proven themselves to be very effective against federation fleets (klingon D-7's)
And in the end only worked because kirk violated orders to inform spock and mccoy, so they could distract the romulan commander and arrange to disguise kirk for infiltration, respectively.
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A big problem is that Roddenberry started doing talks and cons with his Trek war stories in the 70s, and they gradually turned from him reminiscing over the good old days into a self-serving hagiography which became the basis for a lot of his creative decisions in TNG, and his power plays and backstabbing behind the scenes in TAS, TMP and the pre-production of TNG. He was very good at cultivating the goodwill of fans and presenting a specific face to the public in general. A lot of the common stories about Trek's history are utter lies that Roddenberry told - like the reason Majel Barret was dropped as Number One wasn't because the studio didn't think the world was ready for a woman in a position of authority, it was because they didn't think she was a good actor, they knew she was Roddenberry's mistress at the time and they saw this as an abuse of power on his part.
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Sounds like writers felt it was time to make the people you work for the bad guys. Roddenberry must be turning in his grave. xp
I think a lot of folks are conflating "the opinion of Roddenberry the man" with "Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek." The actions of a philandering expert at self-marketing who died early from drug abuse isn't someone whose theoretical moral condemnation I'd sweat.
But in terms of the ideas that made Star Trek more relevant than Gunsmoke, Lost in Space, and Gomer Pyle, I do think those are important. If you like Trek because of pewpew lasers, sideboob, and canon, I don't judge, but we don't have a lot to talk about. Star Trek is based on values and those values include respecting people who are rude, unlikable, and different because they still have their own way of navigating the world. They include our main characters being folks who are good people working for good organizations.
They fail sometimes, institutionally and individually. Look at all of those badmirals. But after a certain number of times, those failures in Starfleet become the rule rather than the exception. Once 60% of the Admirals kicked out by Starfleet become corrupt idiots, the organization itself is corrupt. It's structurally bad and our heroes are the exception instead of the rule--short-sighted and hypocritical though they are for not calling that out.
They make for good 'sometimes stories,' but after lazy writers go to that well too often because the stakes are slightly higher than illustrating the same flaws in the power structure of an alien of the week, the tapestry of ::) canon ::) becomes affected.
That's fine if your investment in Trek is about a sequence of entertaining events with imaginary people designed to occupy your higher brain functions for 45 minutes without doing anything as daring as challenging you to believe that the people and systems which surround our lives can be, y'know, fundamentally good with occasional failures.
Jellico was shitty, but I'd still prefer a Starfleet where he's good at his job.
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A big problem is that Roddenberry started doing talks and cons with his Trek war stories in the 70s, and they gradually turned from him reminiscing over the good old days into a self-serving hagiography which became the basis for a lot of his creative decisions in TNG, and his power plays and backstabbing behind the scenes in TAS, TMP and the pre-production of TNG. He was very good at cultivating the goodwill of fans and presenting a specific face to the public in general. A lot of the common stories about Trek's history are utter lies that Roddenberry told - like the reason Majel Barret was dropped as Number One wasn't because the studio didn't think the world was ready for a woman in a position of authority, it was because they didn't think she was a good actor, they knew she was Roddenberry's mistress at the time and they saw this as an abuse of power on his part.
I'd have to say it: there's always a lot of mythologizing about celebrities no-matter-what, especially the dead ones who can't either argue the point, or blunder in front of the press.
'cause, y'know, they're not alive anymore, and thing with dead folks is, all we really have of them after they're gone, is half-understood impressions and whatever THINGS were left behind.
Whether those things are writings, movies, television shows, radio shows...doesn't matter-the person RARELY measures up or down to the legends people tell about them in the aftermath.
Witness the decades of "Elvis isn't dead" sightings.
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He isn't (Not when we have so many impersonators still at work)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4TC5wl0IzE Mr. Cawley comes immediately to mind... :D
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I'd have to say it: there's always a lot of mythologizing about celebrities no-matter-what, especially the dead ones who can't either argue the point, or blunder in front of the press.
'cause, y'know, they're not alive anymore, and thing with dead folks is, all we really have of them after they're gone, is half-understood impressions and whatever THINGS were left behind.
Whether those things are writings, movies, television shows, radio shows...doesn't matter-the person RARELY measures up or down to the legends people tell about them in the aftermath.
Witness the decades of "Elvis isn't dead" sightings.
Absolutely, and I think we have to always be looking at the contributions of people who are lionised with a critical eye. Roddenberry's "no personal conflicts" rule is a bad one in my opinion, and it showed how much his inflated self-image had moved him away from many of the elements that made TOS great. Like imagine if Spock and McCoy didn't have their love-hate relationship? A lot of the TNG-era writers railed against the rule and it's part of why DS9 was set on a Bajoran station - so they could have Starfleet personnel without interpersonal conflicts clashing with non-Starfleet people and circumvent the rule.
While I don't disagree that modern Trek does the Badmiral schtick more than it should, I don't think this necessarily says the writers don't get the idealism of Starfleet or that they're being cynical about it. Every time the plot shows up, the Badmiral is shown as not living up to Starfleet's ideals as opposed to a BSG-style neither side is entirely right or wrong, it's all shades of grey moral quandary - Admiral Cornwall is explicitly in the wrong in DISCO series 1, and even in Picard series 1 Admiral Clancy is defending the ethically wrong choice when she denounces Picard's hubris while giving a politically valid explanation. It's certainly refreshing to have Admiral Vance as being on the level, so far at least in DISCO series 3 and 4.
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Absolutely, and I think we have to always be looking at the contributions of people who are lionised with a critical eye. Roddenberry's "no personal conflicts" rule is a bad one in my opinion, and it showed how much his inflated self-image had moved him away from many of the elements that made TOS great. Like imagine if Spock and McCoy didn't have their love-hate relationship? A lot of the TNG-era writers railed against the rule and it's part of why DS9 was set on a Bajoran station - so they could have Starfleet personnel without interpersonal conflicts clashing with non-Starfleet people and circumvent the rule.
While I don't disagree that modern Trek does the Badmiral schtick more than it should, I don't think this necessarily says the writers don't get the idealism of Starfleet or that they're being cynical about it. Every time the plot shows up, the Badmiral is shown as not living up to Starfleet's ideals as opposed to a BSG-style neither side is entirely right or wrong, it's all shades of grey moral quandary - Admiral Cornwall is explicitly in the wrong in DISCO series 1, and even in Picard series 1 Admiral Clancy is defending the ethically wrong choice when she denounces Picard's hubris while giving a politically valid explanation. It's certainly refreshing to have Admiral Vance as being on the level, so far at least in DISCO series 3 and 4.
The "Badmiral" trope is derived from the "incompetent/corrupt authority figure" trope, which shows up a LOT in pretty much everything from sitcoms to cop dramas.
are they overusing it? maybe....but maybe not. Part of the reason it gets used so much in pop culture, is because of how often in real life we find ourselves saddled with variations on the theme.
[examples held back in honor of Rule 4]
The key isn't whether they're overusing the trope, merely using it, or not using it, it's whether they deliver a good story if they ARE using it.
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it is notable that in a lot of the TNG and DS9 cases, the admirals that made the bad calls had nominally good intentions, they just either had bad intel (Nechayev regarding just about anything regarding cardassia, for example), or were pursuing their goals in ways that clashed with federation law (Leyton with his coup in order to prepare the federation for the dominion war, Pressman with the development of the phase cloaking device, etc) (voyager managed to avoid having bad admirals mainly by beeing so far out of contact.. and Admiral Paris proved to be a pretty good admiral when we got the episodes focused on Barclay and Project Pathfinder.)
i think Discovery's problem is more that they went with the whole "section 31 conspiracy" angle and thus confused matters (section 31 is clearly of the 2nd camp even in DS9.. but the JJabrams films catapulted them into "stupid evil", and Discovery overused them as an excuse for the federation's poor decisions.)
Admiral Jellico in prodigy seems to fall into the "bad intel" camp.. all he knows is that the protostar has been 'hijacked' by a non-federation crew, and then that there is some sort of weapon aboard. the courses of action he approves (tracking down the ship, later the forced disabling and boarding of it) are all reasonable, if aggressive, things given what he knows. and Jellico does have a reputation for being antagonistic. unfortunately his intel had been filtered by ascensia, and he was prevented from talking to janeway after she'd learned what was actually going on. so he actually had a lot less of an idea of what was occurring than he thought he did.
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Lost in the discussion about Badmirals...
...did anyone else find that it beggared belief that a *professional* Starfleet crew would rely on the universal translator for intra-crew communication? You can understand why the Protostar kids need it, but I was under the impression that anyone who had been through Starfleet Academy and served on a Federation starship would learn to speak English Federation Standard well enough that they wouldn't need the unitrans as a crutch. Pretty bad slip-up on the part of the Prodigy writers IMO.
cheers,
Gabe
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Lost in the discussion about Badmirals...
...did anyone else find that it beggared belief that a *professional* Starfleet crew would rely on the universal translator for intra-crew communication? You can understand why the Protostar kids need it, but I was under the impression that anyone who had been through Starfleet Academy and served on a Federation starship would learn to speak English Federation Standard well enough that they wouldn't need the unitrans as a crutch. Pretty bad slip-up on the part of the Prodigy writers IMO.
cheers,
Gabe
Not necessarily. The Federation includes MANY races, and some of them probably don't have the palate structure to speak in 'federation standard', and hundreds of worlds with different languages and dialects as well.
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did anyone else find that it beggared belief that a *professional* Starfleet crew would rely on the universal translator for intra-crew communication? You can understand why the Protostar kids need it, but I was under the impression that anyone who had been through Starfleet Academy and served on a Federation starship would learn to speak English Federation Standard well enough that they wouldn't need the unitrans as a crutch.
Not really. That kind of non-standardization should be one of Starfleet/The Federation's strengths, or at least core to its ethos. Even if it does come with drawbacks.
I assume that English is(was?) the lingua franca of The Federation, but learning it is not 100% necessary when universal translators are so ubiquitous and reliable. IIRC, there was a Discovery episode that showed that plenty of humans Starfleet officers still speak regional dialects.
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There are families and children on board the US Enterprise; and they, like go into battle. Yikes!
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I assume that English is(was?) the lingua franca of The Federation, but learning it is not 100% necessary when universal translators are so ubiquitous and reliable. IIRC, there was a Discovery episode that showed that plenty of humans Starfleet officers still speak regional dialects.
The lingua franca of the Federation is called Federation Standard, no direct confirmation if it's English or not. In the DISCO episode the ship's Universal Translator goes haywire and the characters are all speaking different languages, but not necessarily ones they know - except for Saru who seems to have learned multiple languages the hard way.
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There are families and children on board the US Enterprise; and they, like go into battle. Yikes!
Just watch episode 1 of DS9... no wonder Sisko hated Picard!
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Just watch episode 1 of DS9... no wonder Sisko hated Picard!
You knowingly and deliberately go into battle, and you still take your civilian family with you.
Against the Borg.
The only ones you really should be upset with is the StarFleet leadership that allowed, and perhaps even ordered, it to happen.
But, then again, anger and hate tend to be blind.
Ruger
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Not really. That kind of non-standardization should be one of Starfleet/The Federation's strengths, or at least core to its ethos. Even if it does come with drawbacks.
If that's so, then the unitrans should be an ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL shipboard system, every bit as much as life support.
How many times have we seen the hero ship take enough damage to its main systems that the unitrans could potentially be disabled? If I'm the captain, I want--no, NEED--my crew to be able to communicate and work together, no matter the situation. I can't afford my ship turning into Babel if it's a matter of life or death (whether the crew's own lives (like trying to avert a warp core breach) or those of somebody the ship is trying to protect). An all-conditions common means of communication is necessary. So everyone learns the same lingo whether they like it or not.
I assume that English is(was?) the lingua franca of The Federation, but learning it is not 100% necessary when universal translators are so ubiquitous and reliable. IIRC, there was a Discovery episode that showed that plenty of humans Starfleet officers still speak regional dialects.
It would be very cool if Federation Standard were a kind of constructed creole or koine of the principal languages of the Federation's four founding species, we just hear it as English for dramatic convenience. Kind of like how in Tolkien's works, Westron isn't actually English, but is just represented that way for ease of storytelling.
You do realize that if the operation of the unitrans were actually represented on-screen as it's supposed to work, every episode of every Trek show would look like a badly-dubbed movie. ;D
cheers,
Gabe
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Not necessarily. The Federation includes MANY races, and some of them probably don't have the palate structure to speak in 'federation standard', and hundreds of worlds with different languages and dialects as well.
Thanks to the ENT episode "Carbon Creek", we know the Vulcans almost certainly learned English when they were covertly studying humans in the century before formal first contact, and interacted with pre-Federation Starfleet Command in English. It would also appear that at least the Andorians (at least the ones like Shran who came into frequent contact with humans) were able to achieve a competent command of English even before the official formation of the Federation, though that could just as well be because of the dramatic conceit of representing even translated speech with native English mouth movements. Not sure about the Tellarites here, but it looks like English is already the de facto lingua franca for three of Federation's four founding members.
See also my comment in another post about the necessity of an all-conditions common means of communication to ensure fluid shipboard operations.
cheers,
Gabe
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it is worth noting that while the characters claim the translator was shut off.. it is also very possible that it was onyl shut off on the protostar, and aboard the federation ships, the Living Weapon instead set it to "scramble" and you had an effect simialr to the one discovery episode.
that said, we see in DS9 "little green men" that until Quark and family get their implanted translators working, they can only speak ferengi and not understand english at all, so the idea that people just rely on translators for everything has precedent. the scene implies that they've been relying on their implanted translators even on the station. since commbadges and similar devices seem to be ubiqitious in the federation, and those all include universal translators, it may well be that most people don't see the need to learn multiple languages. (and given the sheer number of languages that likely exist within the federation, it is probably impossible to learn all of them anyway)
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For me, Disco got better as the seasons went on
1 - I really didn't like this one, the problem was that Burnham was pretty darn unlikeable as a character, she wasn't just sure of herself, she was ABSOLUTELY sure of herself to the point that it was very arrogant as only she could be right and everyone was wrong. And that she was the main character that we was meant to like when she was largely unlikable was a problem. She tried to be like all the worst Vulcan's that you've met in DS9 or Ent and then we're meant to like that? Nope.
2 - Had its moments, but the stuff with Control irked me and the silly over the top action sequence at the end was just too much. Also Space Hitler we're meant to like her because Burnham likes her because she looks like her Captain/Mother Figure. Just forget/ignore the genocides. Honestly the best stuff about season 2 was Pike.
3 - This was good, I liked the future and although the ending was a bit ehh, it was okay.
4 - I really enjoyed this season, we didn't have some 'stache twirling thing, instead there was a big science problem that had to be solved and thankfully because we saw characters evolving over time, I liked Burnham in season 3 and 4, and it was very nice to see some aliens that were not a case of "Behold our FOURTH nose ridge!!!!" humanoids.
Picard however....well I won't repeat my thoughts of that show here, because it will involve a lot of 4 letter words and saying 'incoherent mess' at least a dozen times.
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...the unitrans
I'm not calling it that.
Historically (and for production/story reasons) gravity and universal translators are more reliable than:
-audio/visual equipment (complete with analog static failure patterns and "audio-only" communications)
-internal communications (you can't fit a radio in those commbadges? It's the future!)
-primary lighting (LIGHTS!)
-inertial dampeners (which keep you from dying when you accelerate to significant fractions of C)
-life support (which keep you from dying in a way as slow as inertial dampener failure is messy).
Just watch episode 1 of DS9... no wonder Sisko hated Picard!
I've pitched the idea of a TNG season four in which Picard can't remain a captain anymore--regardless of his actual innocence--and becomes an ambassador attached to the Enterprise while Riker (finally) becomes captain. Data/Worf/Geordi get a level-up to XO and we get a very different captaining style while Picard gets to hang around and have romantic tension with Dr. Crusher.
But congrats on starting a top-tier series. Just a great one.
Picard however....well I won't repeat my thoughts of that show here, because it will involve a lot of 4 letter words and saying 'incoherent mess' at least a dozen times.
I'm not one of those "worst shows EVAR" guys; every show has its merits and it's for someone, but Star Trek: Picard is one of the most meritless things I've ever seen. Even 120 Days of Sodom was about some artist arting up some art.
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Honestly I know that Burnham isn't very liked but I didn't really mind her myself even during S1. And that wasn't just because Tilly was there and I rather like Tilly but also because I didn't find things about her annoying that some do. As far as Picard goes well my stance for that show is same as my stance to Burnham. I really dislike it when people declare shows to be worst ever because they don't like it and don't want to let people that do like those like those because based on them no one should have different likes and dislikes as them.
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You knowingly and deliberately go into battle, and you still take your civilian family with you.
Against the Borg.
The only ones you really should be upset with is the StarFleet leadership that allowed, and perhaps even ordered, it to happen.
But, then again, anger and hate tend to be blind.
Ruger
I didn't say Star Fleet was smart....
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Honestly I know that Burnham isn't very liked but I didn't really mind her myself even during S1. And that wasn't just because Tilly was there and I rather like Tilly but also because I didn't find things about her annoying that some do. As far as Picard goes well my stance for that show is same as my stance to Burnham. I really dislike it when people declare shows to be worst ever because they don't like it and don't want to let people that do like those like those because based on them no one should have different likes and dislikes as them.
EVERYONE (even me) has an opinion if they've watched the show at all.
those opinions are likely to rarely, if ever, match up.
There are people who are offended by the 'what' of a character, and some who find the 'who' to be offensive, and yet others who adore every aspect without hesitation, and everything in between or along the edges.
Similar applies to series. There are some who obsess about (pro and con) the episode vs. serial formats, and some who don't care.
It is actually relatively difficult to fail at Star Trek. a Production team has to actually WORK at it (looking at you, Nemesis).
Of the new treks:
I didn't, and continue not to, like Discovery. My reasons are my own.
I DO like Lower Decks,
I DO like Strange New Worlds.
I couldn't finish the first episode of Picard. (Sorry guys).
But hey, people DO like Discovery, some like specific seasons, others like the whole show...I just can't find it in my to join them, and believe it or not, there are people for whom Picard is, and always will be, the sexiest man on television. (Voted that way back in the eighties, when TNG was relatively new and just hitting the mainstream).
Personally, I liked T'pol, and B'lanna Torres. I really didn't get a consistent Janeway to feel either way about (Voyager's writing room had ISSUES....)
Liked the Holographic Doctor, didn't care much for Tommy Paris.
Sisko is what you find in the dictionary next to "Captain".
but Pike's close second (at least, SNW's Pike.)
Tripp (from Enterprise) is why I like T'pol as much as I do. Those two had chemistry, in MY opinion.
Others have different opinions. This is normal.
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Totally agree, the supporting cast made Enterprise watchable, especially once we got into the meat of season 2 and on.
Strange New Pants was AMAZING. Loved the chap playing Pike, I really hope they do a second season of that.
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Totally agree, the supporting cast made Enterprise watchable, especially once we got into the meat of season 2 and on.
Strange New Pants was AMAZING. Loved the chap playing Pike, I really hope they do a second season of that.
The thing I loved about SNW was the take on mortality and fate threaded through the whole thing from episode 1 on to the end of the season. I'm honestly not sure they can top it for laying down a truly complex question and answer that is fundamentally thought provoking for those of us whom have come to recognize our mortality.
it makes me suspect they put ALL the good writers for the newer treks on THAT show, and didn't interfere overmuch.
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Strange New Pants was AMAZING. Loved the chap playing Pike, I really hope they do a second season of that.
Series 2 is in production - it's probably finished filming by now given they had clips circulating last year. I think it might even have been greenlit for series 3
it makes me suspect they put ALL the good writers for the newer treks on THAT show, and didn't interfere overmuch.
The showrunner on SNW is Akiva Goldsman, who was showrunner on series 1 of Picard and co-showrunner on series 2, as well as having written for DISCO. And he was generally considered a hack writer for many years prior to working on Trek. Just goes to show you can't predict how thing will work out
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amUJkJs4y3k
This is your mission: I require a list of the names of these episodes with Reno in them. ONLY those episodes.
Seriously, watching this video ALMOST makes me want to watch the series (finally). AS it stands, I just want to watch those particular episodes with Reno, please.
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Series 2 is in production - it's probably finished filming by now given they had clips circulating last year. I think it might even have been greenlit for series 3
The showrunner on SNW is Akiva Goldsman, who was showrunner on series 1 of Picard and co-showrunner on series 2, as well as having written for DISCO. And he was generally considered a hack writer for many years prior to working on Trek. Just goes to show you can't predict how thing will work out
eventually if you work long enough, you either get good, or get fired.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amUJkJs4y3k
This is your mission: I require a list of the names of these episodes with Reno in them. ONLY those episodes.
Seriously, watching this video ALMOST makes me want to watch the series (finally). AS it stands, I just want to watch those particular episodes with Reno, please.
As per Memory Alpha:
"Brother" (Season 2)
"An Obol for Charon"
"Through the Valley of Shadows"
"Such Sweet Sorrow"
"Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2"
"Far From Home" (Season 3)
"Die Trying"
"Terra Firma, Part 2"
"Su'Kal"
"That Hope Is You, Part 2"
"The Examples" (Season 4)
"Rosetta"
"Species Ten-C"
"Coming Home"
But with the exception of her first two or three appearances all her episodes are deep in each series storyline so the context may be weird.
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According to the Critical Drinker, the last season of ST Picard will be very different because of a change in showrunner, and it will more be like the old TNG show. I didnt like season 1 so I skipped season 2, but maybe I'll tune into this one because of this rumor.
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According to the Critical Drinker, the last season of ST Picard will be very different because of a change in showrunner, and it will more be like the old TNG show. I didnt like season 1 so I skipped season 2, but maybe I'll tune into this one because of this rumor.
As usual, the Critical Drinker doesn't know what he's talking about. Terry Matalas is the showrunner on series 2 and 3 of Picard. Now, series 3 has had very good buzz from people who've seen the first six episodes of the show, but like, they've actually seen the first six episodes of the show.
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The Critical Drinker has reached the same point as the other person who I should not mention by name who proclaims himself the future ruler of the world. He makes some good points here and there but when it comes down to it I can't rely on a lot of what he has to say. I've actually enjoyed some stuff he's proclaimed crap and he's been way off base on some of what he spouts.
But saying anything more can quickly run into rule 4 territory and though it really shouldn't rule 1 territory.
That said yeah I can admit season 2 of Picard was better than 1 but a lot of it's problems really can be blamed on Hollywood was still adjusting to the pandemic.
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I find Picard frustrating personally because twice it's had a great setup that fizzles out because of pacing issues, but the pacing issue is different in both years. I've been rewatching series 1 this week and it's amazing how the build-up works so well up until the end of episode 7 and then so many plot points just crumble. I still like how it ends, but the route to that destination gets bumpy as hell for the last third. By comparison series 2 set out to hit specific plot points in specific episodes, and would graft filler onto those plot points for anyone not involved in that episode's important moment.
So while I'm guardedly optimistic about series 3 on account of the good buzz, I do remember that Picard series 1 was going well for the first half...
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*nod*
Yeah it is fair to say season 2 had problems beyond the pandemic and while I was a little disappointed in the telegraphed directions they decided to go it had a few moments here and there.
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I feel that if they slowed down the start - like had the spatial anomaly show up at the end of episode 1 and then the Borg in episode 2 so Starfleet have two crises to deal with and then Picard was flashed away by Q as the cliffhanger then, and they returned to the future in episode 9 and spent a bit more time fleshing out the conclusion then you could have the same core plot in the present without all the faff.
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Im also hearing good things about Season 3. Season 3 is supposed to be much much more like TNG. Some of these people are huge critics of current Star Trek and big names when it comes to Star Trek
Im trying to avoid all spoilers and videos about it. I don't want the hype and find out that the hype was overblown and I'm disappointed in the show.
Compared to Season 2, the bar for me is so low that its part of the ground, don't have to work hard to make it a better season IMHO. But along the same lines, it wouldn't be that hard to make it worse.
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I am emotionally prepared for every character to get ruined except Lore. Letting Spiner play Lore for a whole season gives us the promise of a Spiner unshackled as we have never seen them before. Could be great. Could be Fresh Hell season three. But the results won't be disappointing.
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So just watched Picard season 3 episode 1. And, I really can't stress eneugh YOU NEED TO WATCH THIS!
If you disliked the first 2 seasons, don't judge this until you see it, it's honestly... quite differant and MUCH more like classic trek (just as an example, they've replaced the theme with the first contact theme.)
the over all feel is that this is basicly "star trek 10" I finished watching the first episode and I'm already outright EXCITED for next weeks episode.
Ohh also for the STO fans around here in addition to the Oddessy class, we're teased with an Image of the Pathfinder class, which seems to be the Voyager B [spoiler/]
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It definitely feels like more of an adventure story than a portentuous drama, Riker and Picard fall back into the easy cameraderie they had late in TNG and in the movies and it gives it a buddy movie feel. The first half of the episode really feels like one of the TOS movies between the setup, the beauty shots of the Titan, and Shaw giving major Captain Stiles vibes.
I'm also very glad that most of the Picard cast who didn't get written out last year are back, and it looks like most of them are going to have major roles so it's not just OLD PEOPLE IN SPACE
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Also, a few interesting things to note in the closing credits:
The report on the destruction of USS Constance indicates it was lost on Stardate 44002.3 - the battle of Wolf 359.
There's a report on Captain Liam Shaw by Commander REDACTED - presumably Seven of Nine
The one ship registry that's legible in the diagram of ones orbiting Spacedock is NCC-80107, which suggests Luna-class. The four ships with known registries are 80101-80104. The one above it looks like it might be NCC-52136 which is USS Appalachia, one of the Steamrunner-class ships from First Contact.
The Fleet museum contains Voyager, Enterprise-A and the original Excelsior.
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I see we're still using phaser shotguns and phaser assault rifles that wound or disintegrate based on a random number generator, so I assume we're starting as we mean to go on.
Judging from the first episode, I tend to think most of the positive reception for this season is because they're leaning on the callbacks and TNG reunion energy more than previously, and that's what people respond to (that First Contact music is top-tier).
Also, I can't decide if Riker betraying Picard isn't going to happen because this episode sets it up so well or if it is going to happen because Riker was essential to Picard finding Beverly in the first place.
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Watching now. Did no one notice in the bar scene with the souviniers, one of the ships was the Franz Josef Dreadnaught class? Does this mean the ship was canonized (I say yes, like the Destroyer).
Damon.
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It definitely feels like more of an adventure story than a portentuous drama, Riker and Picard fall back into the easy cameraderie they had late in TNG and in the movies and it gives it a buddy movie feel. The first half of the episode really feels like one of the TOS movies between the setup, the beauty shots of the Titan, and Shaw giving major Captain Stiles vibes.
I find him to be more of a Jellico-like prick. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's Jellico's protege, which would explain his hostility toward Riker. I also think he's likely to be a survivor of Wolf 359, which explains his dig at JLP and barely-contained disdain for Seven.
cheers,
Gabe
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Watching now. Did no one notice in the bar scene with the souviniers, one of the ships was the Franz Josef Dreadnaught class? Does this mean the ship was canonized (I say yes, like the Destroyer).
Damon.
Most of the souvenirs were from the Eaglemoss starship collection, and while they intended to make models of the Franz Josef designs they went out of business before anything solid was announced. There's a ship that looks like a Constitution with three nacelles right as Riker asks why there's so many Enterprise-Ds and the barwoman replies "nobody wants the fat ones", so it could be a prototype or a kitbash. Nothing formal has been stated around whether this is a canonisation of Josef's designs or just grabbing something to use as set dressing.
I quite liked that the little Enterprise-D the guy eavesdropping on Picard and Riker dropped into his drink was one of the old Micro Machines.
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I liked the first episdoe of Season 3. Was it perfect ....no and nothing is. It was by far a better episode then of the other episodes. I just hope all the praise from other people talking about the show is truthful. It's nice seeing some of the old crew coming back. I know more of the crew will show up in the later episodes and it's like seeing old friends that you haven't seen in a while, and you get back with them. Let's hope more for that in the other 9 episodes.
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I'm getting Star Trek II vibes from the episode so far
Especially knowing Enterprise F is being decommissioned and Geordi is the head of the museum.
Loved the comment in the bar "no one likes the fat ones" poor Enterprise D "that's a Galaxy class to you lady!"
There's definitely going to be something hoping back to Best of Both Worlds there's already been 3 mentions of those two episodes. Maybe a hint in the credits
The music in the credits was great as was the dedication
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if the F is being retired in the first decade of the 2400's, that means that the next one needs to have a longer service,. since the -J is in the 26th century, and there are only 3 more ships before we get it.
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if the F is being retired in the first decade of the 2400's, that means that the next one needs to have a longer service,. since the -J is in the 26th century, and there are only 3 more ships before we get it.
Not sure they've thought it out OR we'll get an F Refit like the original ship and like the STO ships overtime (subclasses and the like)
Tbh the reason stated in the dossiers is quite weak critical system damage, not Structure compromised, to me decommissioning her for a year or 2 gutting and replacing systems sounds more cost effective since the hull is built
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generally you don't send ships to a museum for a refit..
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I SUSPECT without having seen only bits-pieces of the show and people's reviews. My gut feeling is Enterprise F is being send on a unofficial mission, which requires her not to be a USS Enterprise. I don't think we will see a NCC-1701-G. I will be plesantly surprised, that Saucer section of D will get into action sort-of.
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While we're on the subject of ships here, I'm having trouble seeing how the new Titan is a continuation of Riker's previous command.
What I understand from the log entries they've put out on social media is that what they did with the Titan is sort of the inverse of the refit that transformed the TOS Enterprise into the movie version--rather than stripping the ship down to the spaceframe and giving it new "guts" and "skin", here they kept the "guts" of the previous Titan and grafted them into a new spaceframe of a different class, so it has the same "soul", if you will, but new "skin" and "bones". Hence Shaw's quip that he had to purge Riker's musical preferences from the data core.
(Is this also what they did with the Stargazer?)
But the ship is no longer a Luna-class vessel and has substantially different performance characteristics from Riker's Titan. Hence I find little merit in the argument that it's the same ship.
Now, if the ship's computer begins flashing messages like "Welcome back, Will! <BLEEP> YOU, SHAW!"...
cheers,
Gabe
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one possiability is the enterprise F gets refit to the Yorktown refit, from STO.
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While we're on the subject of ships here, I'm having trouble seeing how the new Titan is a continuation of Riker's previous command.
What I understand from the log entries they've put out on social media is that what they did with the Titan is sort of the inverse of the refit that transformed the TOS Enterprise into the movie version--rather than stripping the ship down to the spaceframe and giving it new "guts" and "skin", here they kept the "guts" of the previous Titan and grafted them into a new spaceframe of a different class, so it has the same "soul", if you will, but new "skin" and "bones". Hence Shaw's quip that he had to purge Riker's musical preferences from the data core.
(Is this also what they did with the Stargazer?)
But the ship is no longer a Luna-class vessel and has substantially different performance characteristics from Riker's Titan. Hence I find little merit in the argument that it's the same ship.
Now, if the ship's computer begins flashing messages like "Welcome back, Will! <BLEEP> YOU, SHAW!"...
cheers,
Gabe
I thought he'd ended up on 2 Titans it would have made substantially more sense.
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I thought he'd ended up on 2 Titans it would have made substantially more sense.
Yes I agree that would make a lot more sense--that Shaw was the last captain of the previous Titan before it was decommissioned, and the first captain of this new one.
But here's what the log entry says:
Because of Captains Saavik and Riker, the Titan’s legacy was continued with a brand new starship, one that would retain its registry, but now with the “A” designation, an honor only given to a select few starships.
NCC-80102-A. Constitution III Class, referred to in Starfleet slang as Neo-Constitution Class. This new Titan is primarily an exploratory vessel, honoring the retro design of the Constitution Class II. Launched in 2402 under the command of Captain Liam Shaw. Work began on a refit using the original Titan space frame, however, with the development of cutting-edge technology, the Titan’s design changed mid-construction and a new ship took form. As per tradition, Starfleet engineers affectionately designated it as a refit, having kept much of the original Titan’s internal components.
The Constitution III was designed to cater to a close support envelope at sub-light speeds, namely in and around densely populated solar systems, as witnessed by is overpowered impulse engines. To date, the new Titan has the largest sub-light power-to-geometry ratio in the fleet.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Coh6Cn8IOgs/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=d0ad0f16-ea5b-4d72-a9bf-b240e5d418c2 (https://www.instagram.com/reel/Coh6Cn8IOgs/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=d0ad0f16-ea5b-4d72-a9bf-b240e5d418c2)
I just don't like the look of the thing. It's supposed to be a hero ship but looks like a misfit. The hammerhead saucer with the overlarge impulse engines, the secondary hull that looks a bit too small, the gracefully-curving nacelle pylons mated with those blocky, chunky nacelles...just too many elements that don't fit together well IMO. Admittedly, the look of the Galaxy class took a while to grow on me, but at least it looked like the product of a unified design philosophy. And the Luna class actually looks pretty badass.
cheers,
Gabe
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If they are using the Titan as a Luna class the Titan-A looks nothing like that. IMHO I like the captain Shaw more than I like the Titan-A.
PS. I like Captain Shaw. He isn't a jerk, he just a by the book captain who don't like retired admirals and captains on his ship unannounced. Picard would of acted the same way if the roles were reversed with no official orders, and Riker acted like a little baby with other captains and higher ranks showed up and did things he didn't like.
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If they are using the Titan as a Luna class the Titan-A looks nothing like that. IMHO I like the captain Shaw more than I like the Titan-A.
PS. I like Captain Shaw. He isn't a jerk, he just a by the book captain who don't like retired admirals and captains on his ship unannounced. Picard would of acted the same way if the roles were reversed with no official orders, and Riker acted like a little baby with other captains and higher ranks showed up and did things he didn't like.
Yup how a design goes from the Luna to thar mid construction is a great mystery
The Neo Constitution I don't actually mind if I'm honest, it's different. Starfleet ships have become sleeker and sleker like they are in a hurry this one not do much
Shaw I also like and agree he's acting exactly how a captain should in that situation
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Yup how a design goes from the Luna to thar mid construction is a great mystery
The Neo Constitution I don't actually mind if I'm honest, it's different. Starfleet ships have become sleeker and sleker like they are in a hurry this one not do much
Shaw I also like and agree he's acting exactly how a captain should in that situation
I will disagree on that's how he should have been acting. No Captain should be that openly hostile to their XO nor their guests.
That said it does not actually bother me as it helped make the episode more interesting to watch.
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I will disagree on that's how he should have been acting. No Captain should be that openly hostile to their XO nor their guests.
That said it does not actually bother me as it helped make the episode more interesting to watch.
I hundred percent agree. Too treat superior officer (Admiral) and their XO like that in real military, that officer would get get punished in a hurray. That was bad writing doing that for humor/drama.
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I hundred percent agree. Too treat superior officer (Admiral) and their XO like that in real military, that officer would get get punished in a hurray. That was bad writing doing that for humor/drama.
Yeah. Star Trek has a solid history of creating conflict between reasonable people who have different perspectives. Shaw is just a dick for being a dick's sake. He's just so darned mad that these guys broke two or three rules in the process of *checks notes* saving millions of lives, including his.
How does Picard even have a reputation as a rogue? Creating an alliance with the Borg last season? Stopping the Romulans from destroying Earth? Disobeying orders to save a species of indigenous people? Stopping the Borg from attacking Earth (the second time)? The flute? The abduction by the Borg? The torture at the hands of Cardassians?
Sure, Lower Decks tells us Riker and the Titan were out doing the action/adventure shit folks pretend Kirk was doing for 5 years, but Picard? Picard!? Unless Shaw is angry on a meta level about the last two seasons of this show, there's no reason for him to be as hostile as he is.
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I hundred percent agree. Too treat superior officer (Admiral) and their XO like that in real military, that officer would get get punished in a hurray. That was bad writing doing that for humor/drama.
I don't know, it might actually be a reflection of how the writers perceive military interactions and military culture in their vision of Starfleet, and therefore not reflective of unprofessional conduct as they see it at all. We're not particularly far from the era of lashing, summary hangings, or keel-hauling in military discipline (less than 150 years ago, Navies used those to maintain good order and discipline), or the era of "Wall to wall Counseling" (less than 100 years ago).
It is entirely possible that in a service where much of the key functions are automated to a degree you can have a space-ship and the crew are in combat wearing clothes instead of space suits, under one atmo pressure instead of depressurized, and they can simply generate spares from the powerplant's output, that certain concepts of disciplined behavior aren't actually currently in use, or even considered useful, that present-day militaries rely on heavily due to the existence of shortages, hazards, and hazardous conditions that the Starfleet as depicted don't have to cope with or even think about.
aka they can actually operate more like "The Office" than "Master and Commander".
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Yup how a design goes from the Luna to thar mid construction is a great mystery
it didn't go from a luna to that "mid construction". it went from a Luna undergoing the early part of a refit/rebuild, to being scrapped and all the useful parts being hauled over to a new ship. which they named after the just decommissioned USS Titan.
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Not there yet, but it sounds like we're fast approaching Starship of Theseus territory... :)
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Not there yet, but it sounds like we're fast approaching Starship of Theseus territory... :)
No, that was the refit enterprise from TMP, which if it had any parts left from TOS, it was a few of the main structural framework girders for the saucer.
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it didn't go from a luna to that "mid construction". it went from a Luna undergoing the early part of a refit/rebuild, to being scrapped and all the useful parts being hauled over to a new ship. which they named after the just decommissioned USS Titan.
Not there yet, but it sounds like we're fast approaching Starship of Theseus territory... :)
No, that was the refit enterprise from TMP, which if it had any parts left from TOS, it was a few of the main structural framework girders for the saucer.
"Neither is the true ship. Both are the true ship."
;D >:D
cheers,
Gabe
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I hundred percent agree. Too treat superior officer (Admiral) and their XO like that in real military, that officer would get get punished in a hurray. That was bad writing doing that for humor/drama.
I've been saying for a number of reasons Shaw is an outright bad captain, beyond the MASSIVE breaches of protocal, leaving Seven in command of the bridge after she took the ship so far off course was a pretty blatent case of dereliction of duty
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Over time, we get accustomed to phrases like, "a new low." But when something as low as Picard really does under-do itself, you remember what those words really mean. It's a ****** slim ceiling to limbo under, but "Disengage" does it with aplomb.
I guess Shaw's character is that he does whatever someone tells him to. Being the worst character in Star Trek: Picard was a tight ****** race until he showed up. He's the Jessie Owens of Star Trek: Picard's failures.
Congrats to Amanda Plumber for chewing scenery while doing every arch villain cliche. Worst tonal mismatch since Kevin Spacey in Superman Returns.
Sneed looks like DJ Khaled wearing a Ferengi prosthetic because of the lazy implication that every lowlife has to have stubble. Where's that ****** up guy from season 3 of Discovery? I miss him.
I thought the reason we came to this ship was because Riker had some pull but I guess he can just sling hyposprays because ****** doctors I guess.
Really thought we'd get Levar Burton before Michael Dorn, but it was arguably the least boiled dogshit tea moment of an episode that was 99% boiled dogshit tea (unsweetened).
It's ****** disheartening to see Patrick Stewart try to crack out a sharp, intense line as Captain Picard and just...flame out. Like, really disheartening. I'm going to go to sleep right now because it makes me feel the icy grip of time just thinking about.
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I had an urge to watch it, Season 3 of PICY but reading here (and Bernd's reviews on Ex Scientia) keeps me sane in knowing "I'm not missing much'...
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The high point of episode 2 appears to have been a certain someone effortlessly eviscerating the minions, and their boss, and only then having another piece of iconic theme play.
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Episode 2 was good for those wanting the pacing of the Next Gen and stand alone stories that's not what Picard is about.
Patrick Stewart is getting on in his years and he's showing it, as is Picard. He isn't ready to jump all over the Titans CO until he HAS to. Not even sure if he's capable of being the captain Picard from the past anymore. Nor should he? That arcs done
I disliked Vadic giving them time, but she has the flair of Khan and Chang, the feeling of absolute control. Rationally speaking you'd pound Titan to scrap unless the person you want needs to speak what you want to know
Worfs intro saw it coming although I was surprised Bashir's lot were name dropped so effortlessly. I'm guessing that's the DS9 link
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Ok... Today I broke.
I started watching season 3 of PICy. It certainly looks nice... the visuals are captivating. The story, on the other hand... needs work, at the very least. I was fine with the intro other than not putting a face on the other Eleos-crewman (which was nothing more than not needing to create another toon by name AND face; That's being cheap on the production side). The rest is fine, whatsherface former crackhead turned spy could have been more discrete in making a report out in the open but I actually enjoyed the interaction between Picard and the shockingly patient Rom chick (is her moral position a reflection of change in light of Post-Romulus? I still liked her...)
Shaw, on the other hand, is written STUPIDLY. A captain who does NOT greet last minute visitors, that he dislikes for reasons[tm], I can understand. But Shaw not being on the bridge during departure from Star Base? Did they model Shaw and 7 of 9 after the CO of a DDG or CG (It was a small boy, that's all I recall) who spend like 90% of the boat's cruise in his At-Sea Cabin because he has some illness (and basically one of the officers covered for him; several officers got either canned or banned, so to speak); this happened in the previous decade. That was insult #1
Insult #2 was also what Shaw did or did not do. I'm cool with him telling Picard and Riker to kick rocks as far as the side trip is concerned. What i am not cool with was no mention of whether or not Shaw called Star Fleet to ask about the presence of Picard and Riker on the Titan-A. If Shaw claims to be by the book, with the spine of the Star Fleet NATOPS manual shoved up his arse, he would made that call to politely ask What the living fornacat was P&R on Titan-A? That's really DUMB writing. Two, when 7 of 9 pulls her stunt to send the ship to Toledah like Picard asked, how the living fartstain is 7 of 9 NOT in a jail cell? Disobeying the orders of the Commanding Officer is 106.67778045% guaranteed to get you relieved of duty, with a free ride back to Staff HQ until some Admiral can force the individual to resign their commission?
They were gonna break the rules, regardless, so why did NOT the writers do the smart thing: Have Picard & Riker lie outright, saying they have mission orders to travel to Toledah, get dropped off in a shuttle and Titan-A goes back to Pittsburg none the wiser? It would have been a easier sell to Shaw at the very least (surely he's had weird missions that officially were off the books?)
anyway, I turned off the Roku, solemn in my position that the writers are ignorant at the very least...
It was beautiful visually. But if you know how much magic goes into fast food imagery, then you know how easy it is make dog crap look tasty... PIC looks like tasty dog crap... :(
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The high point of episode 2 appears to have been a certain someone effortlessly eviscerating the minions, and their boss, and only then having another piece of iconic theme play.
This is true. I might call it now as the high point of the season, depending on how sassy Lore gets.
I disliked Vadic giving them time, but she has the flair of Khan and Chang, the feeling of absolute control. Rationally speaking you'd pound Titan to scrap unless the person you want needs to speak what you want to know
Rationally, you wouldn't blow up a Starfleet vessel unless you had to. I doubt the prices on Jack Crusher's head are worth that many quatloos. I suspect his DNA is though.
Also, if you had a lick of sense, revealing you have access to Starfleet personnel files is also a bad move. Especially if you're already planning a more impressive power move, like throwing a starship at them.
Say whatever you want, but I don't think this person, who captains a ship with "500 weapons" on it, is entirely rational. What are the odds all those masked aliens are clones of her?
Every time Section 31 gets name dropped I roll my eyes so hard it hurts. Remember when absolutely no one ever heard of them and then Bashir told, like, six people and now their name is the topic of casual conversation amongst common criminals?
They were gonna break the rules, regardless, so why did NOT the writers do the smart thing: Have Picard & Riker lie outright, saying they have mission orders to travel to Toledah, get dropped off in a shuttle and Titan-A goes back to Pittsburg none the wiser? It would have been a easier sell to Shaw at the very least (surely he's had weird missions that officially were off the books?)
That's entirely reasonable. Given that we know from season one that better officers will murder dinner guests during a first contact encounter solely on secret orders, it's actually a good plan.
Or they could have just chartered a ship. Another possibility brought to us by the main plot of season one.
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As side note I'm expecting Enterprise-F to mysteriously appear sometime later in the season, since it's retirement may been smoke & mirrors for something else.
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They were gonna break the rules, regardless, so why did NOT the writers do the smart thing: Have Picard & Riker lie outright, saying they have mission orders to travel to Toledah, get dropped off in a shuttle and Titan-A goes back to Pittsburg none the wiser? It would have been a easier sell to Shaw at the very least (surely he's had weird missions that officially were off the books?)
And when he asks them to show him their mission orders and credentials? You don't send your ship on a wild goose chase, nor give our your shuttle, just because someone claims something. For such options he would need orders from Star Fleet to either assist Picard & Riker with whatever they need (in which case they could have just ordered the ship to the location) or to grand them a shuttle.
Which they didn't have. No organization works on verbal orders from former employees (Picard is retired. Non-serving. Not part of Star Fleet Chain of Command).
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And when he asks them to show him their mission orders and credentials? You don't send your ship on a wild goose chase, nor give our your shuttle, just because someone claims something. For such options he would need orders from Star Fleet to either assist Picard & Riker with whatever they need (in which case they could have just ordered the ship to the location) or to grand them a shuttle.
Which they didn't have. No organization works on verbal orders from former employees (Picard is retired. Non-serving. Not part of Star Fleet Chain of Command).
which points to the huge disconnect in how they were supposed to get from point A to point B? By all logic, they should have never been able to get to Toledah in the first place on a Star Fleet ship if Beverly explicitly prohibited Star Fleet's involvement. I mean, what happened to the NON-Star Fleet ship Picard was driving around in the last 2 seasons? Stupid, Stupid: That's why I turned it off at that point. I'm talking Marines gleefully eating crayons (and telling you how each one is good and why), Stupid*.
They (the old TNG cast) did this for a paycheck, nothing more. Not Entertainment, not progress or improvement of the Star Trek IP, just a paycheck...
*Stupid being a replacement for a word that I want to use desperately because THAT word is the ONLY word appropriate to describe my utter disgust at current LA Star Trek but... TPTB here would instaban me for violating the 4th wall, etc...
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The non-starfleet ship was not his. It belonged to other people and I believe Raffi has it currently I think (she has /a/ ship at least).
Beverly said "no star Fleet". Picard and Riker said "screw that, we're resucing her regardless." and tried to be sneaky about it. They only got there because of Seven disobeying orders (which will probably scuttle her career unless Shaw bites the dust before filing a report).
I'm finding good enjoyment with the season, and look forward to seeing where it goes.
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Amanda Plummer recalled her father's spirit in this episode and I was happy to finally hear Picard's name in proper french. :P :P
I agree, the visual is awesome but the script is so-so. I'm glad I'm watching it on cable TV here, I'm not paying for this.
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Watched the first episode of Picard season 3 on YouTube. I thought it was pretty good.
Ruger
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Episode 3 might be the best episode of the season. It's almost mediocre, but Worf and Raffi are killing it.
Despite the fact that Ensign Obviously Evil has been revealed as the traitor, I'm still not letting Riker off the hook.
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Episode 3 might be the best episode of the season. It's almost mediocre, but Worf and Raffi are killing it.
Despite the fact that Ensign Obviously Evil has been revealed as the traitor, I'm still not letting Riker off the hook.
Worf and Riker are doing awesome!! It was a great episode of Season 3, maybe the best episode of the whole series.
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Some breaking news that will make a number of people here VERY happy:
https://trekmovie.com/2023/03/02/breaking-star-trek-discovery-to-conclude-with-season-5/ (https://trekmovie.com/2023/03/02/breaking-star-trek-discovery-to-conclude-with-season-5/)
You got what you wanted.
Cheers,
Gabe
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I think it's best this way since trying to make it longer than it needs to be wouldn't be good thing IMO. Let story run it's course and then end it there.
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Some breaking news that will make a number of people here VERY happy:
https://trekmovie.com/2023/03/02/breaking-star-trek-discovery-to-conclude-with-season-5/ (https://trekmovie.com/2023/03/02/breaking-star-trek-discovery-to-conclude-with-season-5/)
You got what you wanted.
Cheers,
Gabe
NO, NO, NO. We didn't get ANYTHING whatsoever that we wanted. We got nothing that looked like anything that incrementally improved upon ENT, We didn't get Klingons of any recognizable sort and they wasted the talents of the DIS cast on utter excrement stories (they could have done SUCH A BETTER job with the Mirror Storyline had they had a Gosh Darn Clue!). Instead, we got what we got... Only 5 seasons? You make it sound like we were not begging for them to stop at 3 seasons...
Lets not forget how they successfully stole the McGuffin Taragrade legally
No, we the viewing audience got nothing good out of this (save maybe SNW)
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NO, NO, NO. We didn't get ANYTHING whatsoever that we wanted. We got nothing that looked like anything that incrementally improved upon ENT, We didn't get Klingons of any recognizable sort and they wasted the talents of the DIS cast on utter excrement stories (they could have done SUCH A BETTER job with the Mirror Storyline had they had a Gosh Darn Clue!). Instead, we got what we got... Only 5 seasons? You make it sound like we were not begging for them to stop at 3 seasons...
Lets not forget how they successfully stole the McGuffin Taragrade legally
No, we the viewing audience got nothing good out of this (save maybe SNW)
Clearly, you misunderstood. You wanted it cancelled. That's effectively been done now.
cheers,
Gabe
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A shame as it was hitting it's strides. But five years is still a good run.
Hopefully it will clear up the slate for Section 31 to finally go ahead.
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Clearly, you assumed Much
Traffic. Now.
PM sent. A relatively civil PM.
MODS: We should lock this thread briefly (because Hot damn, I am at GQ and requesting Weapons Free Posture)
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NO, NO, NO. We didn't get ANYTHING whatsoever that we wanted. We got nothing that looked like anything that incrementally improved upon ENT, We didn't get Klingons of any recognizable sort and they wasted the talents of the DIS cast on utter excrement stories (they could have done SUCH A BETTER job with the Mirror Storyline had they had a Gosh Darn Clue!). Instead, we got what we got... Only 5 seasons? You make it sound like we were not begging for them to stop at 3 seasons...
Lets not forget how they successfully stole the McGuffin Taragrade legally
No, we the viewing audience got nothing good out of this (save maybe SNW)
I am sorry but you aren't talking for everyone and you can't since you can only talk for yourself. Thus what you're really saying is that you didn't get what you wanted which is fine but don't act like your opinions are everyone's opinions.
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I am sorry but you aren't talking for everyone and you can't since you can only talk for yourself. Thus what you're really saying is that you didn't get what you wanted which is fine but don't act like your opinions are everyone's opinions.
100% QFT.
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Enjoyed episode 3
Didn't like the whole Picard Riker arc it didn't make a whole load of sense to me. They are two men obviously looking at a problem from two vastly different angles but when they've been at odds before they've still acted like friends
I liked the DS9 link if you'll pardon the pun and the tribute to a good friend
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There's a bad habit this season of adults--Starfleet captains--listening to other people's advice, making their own decisions, and then blaming that other person when their decisions are wrong. It's annoying.
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Clearly, you misunderstood. You wanted it cancelled. That's effectively been done now.
cheers,
Gabe
can we NOT do this??
to each other, I mean.
Not all trek is to all tastes. I disliked Discovery from the opening season onward, and I'm not going to even PRETEND to be happy about the cancellation after five years.
Five years is a good run. Five years let them break the rust off and five years gave us SNW and proved that Lower Decks was worth the time to invest, I don't HAVE to like Discovery to recognize that it was critical to getting new Trek shows that I do like, and that without it, those shows wouldn't have had the funding, backing, or release support.
So can we PLEASE not start tearing into each other in FanTribal conflicts?? hmm?
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Thing is is this really cancellation or just show having ran it's course. It's cleat that Discovery was successful enough to get 5 seasons or possibly even more seasons if they had wanted that which seems to me like they didn't. Remember that Babylon 5 ran 5 seasons and it told it's story within that time even if season 5 wasn't as good as seasons before it. Not all shows are like The Simpsons and last forever.
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Thing is is this really cancellation or just show having ran it's course. It's cleat that Discovery was successful enough to get 5 seasons or possibly even more seasons if they had wanted that which seems to me like they didn't. Remember that Babylon 5 ran 5 seasons and it told it's story within that time even if season 5 wasn't as good as seasons before it. Not all shows are like The Simpsons and last forever.
eh, gawd, "The Simpsons"...ew.
five years is a Damned good run, especially in the genre we're (hopefully) fans of. Farscape didn't get five years, Firefly didn't get five years, like or hate it, Enterprise didn't get five years.
so it's likely what you noted here-Discovery simply finished their run.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the final decision was financial - like the 90's Trek casts were signed to six year contracts and only got a decent raise for series 7 - Terry Farrell quit DS9 in part because of underhanded tactics Rick Berman was using to undermine her negotiations and she was offered a main role in Becker which was more job security than one more year of Trek. A lot of the DISCO cast are decent-sized names and/or get steady work so keeping them around might be proving too expensive.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the final decision was financial - like the 90's Trek casts were signed to six year contracts and only got a decent raise for series 7 - Terry Farrell quit DS9 in part because of underhanded tactics Rick Berman was using to undermine her negotiations and she was offered a main role in Becker which was more job security than one more year of Trek. A lot of the DISCO cast are decent-sized names and/or get steady work so keeping them around might be proving too expensive.
That's highly likely-they spent quite a bit from season 1, including some fairly established names...but part of doing a prequel, is that you end up having to limit your run in a franchise.
Presumably, the major names had decent negotiators for agents, including the star.
there are other reasons to cancel a show in this genre after five years. things like hitting your limit on story (especially in serial format, as opposed to episodic. One of the reasons SG-1 lasted a decade, was that it had a format that allowed for that)
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there are other reasons to cancel a show in this genre after five years. things like hitting your limit on story (especially in serial format, as opposed to episodic. One of the reasons SG-1 lasted a decade, was that it had a format that allowed for that)
That and SG-1 was saved from cancellation twice, and twice had big setpiece episodes meant to be the show's finale. The show was flexible enough that in each case they were able to conjure up a new big enemy.
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That and SG-1 was saved from cancellation twice, and twice had big setpiece episodes meant to be the show's finale. The show was flexible enough that in each case they were able to conjure up a new big enemy.
Yeah, true, but the innate flexibility of their format ALLOWED for that. contrast with Babylon 5 which was originally conceived as 5 years, but peaked at 4 thanks to JMS having to pare it down to the essentials due to being under a financial gun-which led to 4 years of outstanding excellence, and after turner 'rescued it' one year of absolute mediocrity (but nicer SFX and more guest stars).
The problem being the Serial format versus Episodic. Episodic with brief serials lets you get away with more both in terms of repeat-viewing, reruns/syndication, and in terms flex as far as what you can DO with the setting and story on the subject of renewal.
Discovery was Serial format, which lets you tell LONGER stories (not necessarily better-that's an argument that's gotten these threads closed wayyy too often, but LONGER certainly can be agreed upon by everyone), but those longer stories have a sort of 'half life' where you don't have the flexibility if a cast member gets hurt, or pregnant, or wants to take a year off and make "The Death of Stalin" or something.
Episodic television lets you have that flex. It also lets you get away with money-saving measures like bottle episodes (a staple of TNG and Voyager), experimental episodes (the SG1 "puppet" episode among others), different sub-genres and experimental stuff (SEven of Nine hosting the Doctor in her circuits, thus proving the actress can, in fact, actually act and wasn't just a fantastic pair of...in a catsuit)
and it's easier to renew, because it's easier to flex the cast, change writers mid-stream, change directors, let new directors try it out, or experiment with your writing.
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So how long do you think before it's revealed that Riker is really a Changeling imposter.
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So how long do you think before it's revealed that Riker is really a Changeling imposter.
I've been saying something very similar to this!
Also, if I were a Changling and I was tackled by a Klingon, I would simply rip them in half like a phone book. RIP to Titus Rikka, but I'm different.
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Thing is is this really cancellation or just show having ran it's course. It's cleat that Discovery was successful enough to get 5 seasons or possibly even more seasons if they had wanted that which seems to me like they didn't. Remember that Babylon 5 ran 5 seasons and it told it's story within that time even if season 5 wasn't as good as seasons before it. Not all shows are like The Simpsons and last forever.
It is effectively cancellation. Season five was supposed to released sometime this year but has now been pushed back to 2024. Also there are some reshoots/additional shoots that have been ordered to make what would've been the season finale into the series finale, so wrapping DISCO up with the current season was NOT the original plan.
Also, even on the currently continuing shows, there is as of yet no new production scheduled for 2024. An ominous sign, IMO.
cheers,
Gabe
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It is effectively cancellation. Season five was supposed to released sometime this year but has now been pushed back to 2024. Also there are some reshoots/additional shoots that have been ordered to make what would've been the season finale into the series finale, so wrapping DISCO up with the current season was NOT the original plan.
Also, even on the currently continuing shows, there is as of yet no new production scheduled for 2024. An ominous sign, IMO.
cheers,
Gabe
could it possibly be that they REALLY want to get the series finale right? I mean, considering the dogs-dinner that was the Series Finale of Enterprise almost finished off the franchise entirely, maybe they just had second thoughts about what they had, and decided it needed to be bigger, louder, and uncut?
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Paramount + is going through a painful merge with Showtime (which i can't understand why their getting rid of stuff..) which cost of Disco among others was one the standing out points. No matter how iffy the stories have been written, their special effects/background stuff have been top notch. Picard is also exiting after this season, so their left with only Strange New Worlds and this alleged Star Fleet Academy set in the 32nd Century. Which is odd to me. I've never been attracted to the academy plot thing since they tried get Shatner and Nimoy to star in film show casing them. Teen angst / college years for future heroes isn't for me personally.
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so their left with only Strange New Worlds and this alleged Star Fleet Academy set in the 32nd Century.
Are Lower Decks & Prodigy ending as well?
With the shennanigans going on with HBOMax, I'm wondering if the streaming networks are intent in alienating me!
Damon.
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Also have the Section 31 show that has been in works for years now.
Hope that one don't get made.
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Also have the Section 31 show that has been in works for years now.
Hope that one don't get made.
I heard a rumor the other day of a "Worf and Raffi" series being planned, so it might be that they're repurposing the idea to focus on those two "due to scheduling difficulties with Yeoh" which is good as they're starfleet intell not section 31. and I for one think a SFI show featuring Worf and Raffi would allow them to cover much the same ground, but also be more popular then a S31 series featuring "empress hitler"
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Are Lower Decks & Prodigy ending as well?
They've both been renewed for at least one more series, as has Strange New Worlds
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They've both been renewed for at least one more series, as has Strange New Worlds
I'd not be suprised if Lower decks ran the most seasons of the paramount plus stuff, between the lower budget required for animation vs high end sci-fi with lot's of special effects, the popularity of the series (I've not met ANYONE who dislikes it) as well as it being easier to recast a voice actor then an actor, there's no reason it can't run for ages. it'd be intreasting if they slowly over the years down the road began to rotate in new cast and have old characters get promoted and move on.
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Lower Decks doesn't seem to be as big a hit with the general public though. Picard is constantly in Amazon's top 10 over here when it's on (it's number 5 tonight), but Lower Decks didn't even get into the top 10 for series 3.
Which isn't to say I wouldn't mind it going on for ages and especially rotating characters through the Cerritos, but it is what it is.
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Lower Decks doesn't seem to be as big a hit with the general public though. Picard is constantly in Amazon's top 10 over here when it's on (it's number 5 tonight), but Lower Decks didn't even get into the top 10 for series 3.
Which isn't to say I wouldn't mind it going on for ages and especially rotating characters through the Cerritos, but it is what it is.
Animation is still kind of a niche market, and "Lower Decks" doesn't have the same reliance on childish humour and fart jokes that something like "The Simpsons" does-it includes actual character development instead of a permanent 'now'.
That said, it's one of TWO nutrek shows I like. The other one is Strange New Worlds, and that's mainly because SNW has...hard to explain, but Picard ain't got it and Disco never had it even WITH Pike.
(though, to be fair, my favorite character from Discovery IS Jet Reno. She is how you write a Munchkin, powergamer, rules-lawyering dice-bunking Uber character and do it well... but then, from TOS I was the weird kid who thought Bones was the best character on the show.)
I think it might just be a matter of finding 'trench writers' (not showrunners) who actually LIKE Star Trek, not just Star Trek's legend among commentators, but the actual SHOW, and want to do it well.
but that's just me spouting again.
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I think it might just be a matter of finding 'trench writers' (not showrunners) who actually LIKE Star Trek, not just Star Trek's legend among commentators, but the actual SHOW, and want to do it well.
Of course, Picard and DISCO are the shows who have veteran Trek writers in the mix, while SNW doesn't.
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Of course, Picard and DISCO are the shows who have veteran Trek writers in the mix, while SNW doesn't.
"veteran" doesn't always mean "Good" though, Lorcan. Sometimes it means "Can't reliably work anywhere else", or means "So wrapped up on their GoH status that they won't listen when their ideas are crap anymore".
sometimes it's the rookie who grew up loving the franchise who turns out the quality that the jaded veteran used to their own infallibility can't manage.
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From what I've ready just about every streaming platform is severely curtailing their production budgets. It may be a good sign that perhaps some of these bozos will realize you can't have a dozen different streaming services and expect to make money.
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From what I've ready just about every streaming platform is severely curtailing their production budgets. It may be a good sign that perhaps some of these bozos will realize you can't have a dozen different streaming services and expect to make money.
I don't know if you're old enough to remember the "cable boom" in the eighties. It generated the comment "300 channels and nothing's on".
I think streaming's going in the same general direction with the same general outcomes-start off with one or two, then they multiply, and multiply, and multiply until there are so many that none of them are profitable, then the weaker services get bought out or drop off, leaving the rest at about the size that makes a profit...of some kind.
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"veteran" doesn't always mean "Good" though, Lorcan. Sometimes it means "Can't reliably work anywhere else", or means "So wrapped up on their GoH status that they won't listen when their ideas are crap anymore".
sometimes it's the rookie who grew up loving the franchise who turns out the quality that the jaded veteran used to their own infallibility can't manage.
Yes, but you were talking about writers who like or dislike Star Trek, not writers who were burned out on it. And the two most prominent veteran writers are Joe Menosky who now writes on The Orville which I'm assured is more Star Trek than Star Trek, and Kirsten Beyer who's Trek novel output slowed but has remained consistent.
There's a lot of attempts by fans to categorise and classify why they don't like Discovery or Picard, to make an objective fact like "the writers clearly hate Star Trek" or whatever. This is in part because of that very specific nerd mindset about things having to fit in boxes, and because we've got a lot of ancillary pop culture dedicated to rating things on an allegedly objective scale - YouTube channels like CinemaSins that that claim to be comedy but also claim to be critics don't talk about why they like or dislike a movie or TV show, they talk about thing the subject gets wrong. , based on claims of objectivity that don't really exist. We've been trained to put things into boxes and "It's not for me" usually isn't one of those boxes. Instead it's ridiculous claims like "it's bad because the writers hate Star Trek"
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Yes, but you were talking about writers who like or dislike Star Trek, not writers who were burned out on it. And the two most prominent veteran writers are Joe Menosky who now writes on The Orville which I'm assured is more Star Trek than Star Trek, and Kirsten Beyer who's Trek novel output slowed but has remained consistent.
There's a lot of attempts by fans to categorise and classify why they don't like Discovery or Picard, to make an objective fact like "the writers clearly hate Star Trek" or whatever. This is in part because of that very specific nerd mindset about things having to fit in boxes, and because we've got a lot of ancillary pop culture dedicated to rating things on an allegedly objective scale - YouTube channels like CinemaSins that that claim to be comedy but also claim to be critics don't talk about why they like or dislike a movie or TV show, they talk about thing the subject gets wrong. , based on claims of objectivity that don't really exist. We've been trained to put things into boxes and "It's not for me" usually isn't one of those boxes. Instead it's ridiculous claims like "it's bad because the writers hate Star Trek"
You're right. I can't argue your point, because you're right.
except when the Caricatures are better characters than the Characters. Then you actually have a basis for comparison that works...from a certain point of view.
Your mileage may vary significantly. I disliked Disco, but then, I was never a fan of Nylon Pants or leisure suits either, and my sister's decade-long crush on Andy Gibb cured me of ever liking the Bee-Gees.
kind of a mental vaccination.
Likewise for Discovery. beautiful special effects, top-drawer acting talent and I admit, to me it was less satisfying than some of the cheesy fan-films.
I mean the REALLY cheesy ones, with the overweight college students instead of actors, shot on VHS recorders on poorly disguised sections of midwestern university campuses.
OTOH< the spinoff "Strange New Worlds" rocked my ****** socks off.
That is ALL subjective, and I can't even say I hate everything from Discovery. I like Jett Reno. Jett Reno's improbable accomplishments WORK with the character, make the character work, or maybe it's that the Character MAKES them work. acidic, ascerbic, maladjusted, harsh, hard to cope with and brilliant WORKS.
and...maybe it's the actress.
Dunno. Not sure. maybe I just like my geniuses to be a little bit butch, instead of soft and cuddly-sensitive and super-duper emotionally fragile.
so, subjective again.
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I don't know if you're old enough to remember the "cable boom" in the eighties. It generated the comment "300 channels and nothing's on".
I think streaming's going in the same general direction with the same general outcomes-start off with one or two, then they multiply, and multiply, and multiply until there are so many that none of them are profitable, then the weaker services get bought out or drop off, leaving the rest at about the size that makes a profit...of some kind.
Oh I'm more than old enough to remember though where I lived was waaaaay out in the boonies so no cable at our house. I grew up on one UHF Independent station which is the only one that got halfway decent reception. Most of the television of my youth were reruns of Gilligan Island, Beverly Hillbillies, Petticoat Junction, Green Acres, Star Trek, etc.
The point being that it's less about getting weaker than the fact that no one studio/network has enough content or produce enough content for a streaming service and have enough subscribers to make it profitable. There just aren't enough subscribers to go around. Not full time subscribers anyway.
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I'm not going to miss Discovery I think its ran its course. The only thing they could do is an exploration type show and that's Strange New Worlds
Speaking of which SNW can't step wrong so far from what I've seen even Kirk grew on me after a couple of watches
Lower Decks I've never gotten into, to the point i dont like it, its the voices just feels like they are constantly shouting and just being ridiculous (i get thats the point i just find it grating), even the Titan episodes, although I'm curious about the crossover
Prodigy is great it just works really well although now they are on a proper starship it might be weird
Picard I've liked it, it's not been great but it's been good, season 3 feels like it should have been season 1 although I know why they didn't go that way.
Most recent episode or picard I felt really sorry for Picard in the end when he realised a memory he had remembered he'd remembered it for a reason. Nice to see Rikers redemption and a classic "Star Trek" solution in the end of the episode. It felt like a stand alone contained episode which was weird given Picards format
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****** me. I was ready to stamp 3x04 "almost mediocre" about 10 minutes until the end, but it really pulled itself up to "good, actually." Best episode of the series...so far?
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Oh I'm more than old enough to remember though where I lived was waaaaay out in the boonies so no cable at our house. I grew up on one UHF Independent station which is the only one that got halfway decent reception. Most of the television of my youth were reruns of Gilligan Island, Beverly Hillbillies, Petticoat Junction, Green Acres, Star Trek, etc.
The point being that it's less about getting weaker than the fact that no one studio/network has enough content or produce enough content for a streaming service and have enough subscribers to make it profitable. There just aren't enough subscribers to go around. Not full time subscribers anyway.
which shows a weakness that manifested in the MMO market about ten years or so ago: unless you're already the biggest on the block by way of being a founder of the movement, the subscription model isn't actually that profitable.
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I just would say that Episode 4 Season 3 of Picard was the best of the episodes in all of NewTrek.
It is what Star Trek should of been since. So many thing awesome things.....was it perfect well no. I have my criticisms of the episode. The safe space in the ship when the ship is "sinking" but whatever.
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Well...I certainly didn't expect HER to return.
That was a big surprise and a well-kept secret.
cheers,
Gabe
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Yup I very much enjoyed her return, and the turmoil it caused. Also the character got the arc closure it deserved
I'd love to know what the Red room visions he's having are though they are a bit confusing especially since they cause him to go all super-commando or have visions of being one
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Well...I certainly didn't expect HER to return.
That was a big surprise and a well-kept secret.
cheers,
Gabe
So who is going to be next?
They are certainly dragging Lore and Moriarty out.
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So who is going to be next?
They are certainly dragging Lore and Moriarty out.
We're dealing with Changelings, so it may not actually be either of them. Granted, Lore is probably the superweapon that was actually stolen from Daystrom.
I'm so glad they're doing Worf right in this show. I expected them to do him nasty, but I've been pleasantly surprised so far.
Also: What ****** right does this series have to suddenly become good on episodes 24 & 25? Where the hell does it get off?!
The shoutouts to Okona and Brunt were also nice.
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I liked Episode 5, but not as much as most. It was really good with the plot and characters. But I thought Episode 4 was better.
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I don't think it was as good as last week's, no. I like Star Trek, so last week's episode that was shaped like Star Trek while still doing its Picard thing is going to be pretty hard to top.
However, it was one of the best executions of the show that Picard has been trying to be. That is, a completely generic modern sci-fi drama with the twist that its mystery box is coated with memberries.
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I liked Episode 5, but not as much as most. It was really good with the plot and characters. But I thought Episode 4 was better.
Episode 4 was pretty much perfect Star Trek you cant shoot out, so you out think them especially in the end riding the wave and a new life form is born and Rikers unconventional if pretty obvious weapon solution
If anything else in the series matches up I'll be surprised
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Episode 4 was pretty much perfect Star Trek you cant shoot out, so you out think them especially in the end riding the wave and a new life form is born and Rikers unconventional if pretty obvious weapon solution
If anything else in the series matches up I'll be surprised
Episode 4 was the best Star Trek in a long time, it gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling while watching that episode. Was it perfect...nothing ever is, but it ticked all the boxes for me. I just wish this would of been Season 1 of Picard vs what we got.
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Has anyone else noticed that the Titan-A's doctor is played by Veteran Scream Queen Tiffany Shepis?
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So far my favorite season of Picard.
Time travel is just a thing that I usually can't get into...so I couldn't even bring myself to finish S2. Season 1 I enjoyed, but it wasn't particularly memorable for me. But so far I'm enjoying season 3 a lot.
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While I can't watch the series itself, I am watching the youtube channels that go over it.
One thing I would find disappointing is if Jack turns out to not be Picard's son. It would be twist writers nowadays would come up. However, we've barely gotten to mid season(?) So we'd have wait where we go from here.
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Actually, this show is still okay. It feels like the kind of show that Picard was always trying to be. I don't like it, but it's executing on its stupid idea well.
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So, the Mortal Remains of James Tiberius Kirk are regarded as a Superweapon!
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Episode 6 I thought was better than Episode 5, maybe because of all the ships!!!
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Episode 6 I thought was better than Episode 5, maybe because of all the ships!!!
I'm glad they gave us one ship that wasn't in a Star Trek.
Also, I don't even like Star Trek: Voyager, but Voyager deserves a little more renown than Defiant II.
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I just thought that tech got better over the years in Star Trek. A 120 year Bird of Prey and its cloke, should be pretty out of date for current sensors to find. There was a episode of TNG where the crew and the D found a cloaked ship from that era with no real problems.
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Episode 6 I thought was better than Episode 5, maybe because of all the ships!!!
The ships were great
I just thought that tech got better over the years in Star Trek. A 120 year Bird of Prey and its cloke, should be pretty out of date for current sensors to find. There was a episode of TNG where the crew and the D found a cloaked ship from that era with no real problems.
I really wanted them to steal the Superior Klingon Technology I.e the ship ;D
They weren't looking for a cloaked ship so... surprise
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They weren't looking for a cloaked ship so... surprise
They needed to not be seen, so they needed a cloaking device. They're in a very battered ship. They're in a ship that has a new technology that talks to other Federation ships at all times. So they stole a 100+ year old Klingon cloaking device, and had a hard time affixing it to their battered ship. Meanwhile, THE DEFIANT IS RIGHT THERE!!! Imagine being a changeling being all nefarious, and suddenly you turn on your main screen and see that ship coming for you. With Worf in command.
So, the Mortal Remains of James Tiberius Kirk are regarded as a Superweapon!
Yeah, about that...That skeleton doesn't look too much like it suffered from a bridge collapse, does it? Looks downright intact...
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The corpse wasn't of Kirk. Watch again more carefully and listen to the Daystrom security database more carefully.
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They needed to not be seen, so they needed a cloaking device. They're in a very battered ship. They're in a ship that has a new technology that talks to other Federation ships at all times. So they stole a 100+ year old Klingon cloaking device, and had a hard time affixing it to their battered ship. Meanwhile, THE DEFIANT IS RIGHT THERE!!! Imagine being a changeling being all nefarious, and suddenly you turn on your main screen and see that ship coming for you. With Worf in command.
The Defiant with the cloak was destroyed a few episodes before the end of DS9, that's the USS Sao Paolo, which was renamed Defiant in the second-last episodes
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I think only two ships that we're spotted was what was left of Enterprise D and Enterprise F (likely in Hangar 18). I hope they don't need keep going using nostalgia get through rest of the season. While Easter Eggs are cool, this getting bit too much.
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Yeah, that's one thing that really annoyed me about Mandalorian and I'd rather Trek not lean too much into it.
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I don't have Paramount+ but I've got to ask. Hangar 18?
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I don't have Paramount+ but I've got to ask. Hangar 18?
LaForge is command of the Star Fleet museum, there was scene where his daughter turns to him asks about Hangar 18 in the museum, he says not to mention it to reunited TNG crew/Titan-A People. We fans simply don't know anything else beyond that. Other name of it makes it makes it sound like there something special in it. My gut feelings is Hangar 18 is the home of most obvious Easter egg, the Enterprise F which they been seeding all season 3 about having been subjected too an early retirement.
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Actually, it was Hangar 12.
Among the Fleet Museum's collection, did anyone else find it significant that the USS New Jersey was a TOS-style Constitution-class ship, and not the reimagined version seen in DISCO and SNW (however good it looks)?
Just seems to reinforce the feeling a lot of fans have that the Discoverse really is a separate continuity.
Cheers
Gabe
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Also, any thoughts on the new Intrepid from episode 5?
According to Memory Alpha, this ship is of the Duderstadt class.
I thought the rather unorthodox choice of placing the "neck" at the aft end of the engineering hull, rather than at the fore, gave the ship a rather sinister, predatory look, especially when viewed from the side. Pretty appropriate for a ship commandeered by Changelings.
Cheers,
Gabe
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Also, any thoughts on the new Intrepid from episode 5?
According to Memory Alpha, this ship is of the Duderstadt class.
I thought the rather unorthodox choice of placing the "neck" at the aft end of the engineering hull, rather than at the fore, gave the ship a rather sinister, predatory look, especially when viewed from the side. Pretty appropriate for a ship commandeered by Changelings.
Cheers,
Gabe
pretty sure the Dunderstat is a modern revamp of the Pioneer class from STO
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Actually, it was Hangar 12.
Among the Fleet Museum's collection, did anyone else find it significant that the USS New Jersey was a TOS-style Constitution-class ship, and not the reimagined version seen in DISCO and SNW (however good it looks)?
Just seems to reinforce the feeling a lot of fans have that the Discoverse really is a separate continuity.
Cheers
Gabe
I think some fans are really really really grasping at straws. It's just a homeage.
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I think some fans are really really really grasping at straws. It's just a homeage.
tend to agree. a more likely explination is that offically SNW enterprise undergoes an extensive refit between SNW and TOS
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It was (almost) good to see Tuvok on this week's Picard... xp
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Also, any thoughts on the new Intrepid from episode 5?
According to Memory Alpha, this ship is of the Duderstadt class.
I thought the rather unorthodox choice of placing the "neck" at the aft end of the engineering hull, rather than at the fore, gave the ship a rather sinister, predatory look, especially when viewed from the side. Pretty appropriate for a ship commandeered by Changelings.
Cheers,
Gabe
I didn't like the look of the Intrepid and the Duderstadt class. It looked pretty neat but the origional Intrepid looked better. The ships of Picard have been doing better in the refit department and using the designs form STO, but I think they missed on the some of the designs, but Im not overly a fan of the Titan-A either. That being said the ships in Picard with the Intrepid and the Titan-A are about a billion times better than the ships from Discovery, SNW and Season 1 of Picard.
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New show has been announced, Starfleet Academy. Showrunner is Noga Landau, who worked on Nancy Drew and Tom Swift at the CW. Text in the announcement suggests it's set after DISCO series 4.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/783085400666406942/1091050429485437018/FseyF-GaMAIX-kd.png)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/783085400666406942/1091050463123734550/FseyHnaaEAEMhPw.png)
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So it's Discovery spin off? That will be interesting, they're essentially very small fleet. So it's wild new universe for Star Fleet.
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Tawny Newsome has announced she's on the writing team for the new show
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When Tilly was offered to work with Starfleet Acadamy and had her show with some new cadets, that was supposed to be the spin off show for that, I think that was early in Season 4.
I just wish it wasnt in the 31st century...but after Picard.
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New show has been announced, Starfleet Academy. Showrunner is Noga Landau, who worked on Nancy Drew and Tom Swift at the CW. Text in the announcement suggests it's set after DISCO series 4.
The bastards have been kicking around that idea for 40 ****** years and now they're actually going to do it.
Also it's somehow comforting to see that Picard is continuing its tradition of using first third of its season to evoke pity, its second third to give hope, and its third third to crush dreams.
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Rejoice!
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The bastards have been kicking around that idea for 40 ****** years and now they're actually going to do it.
Yeah, I commented elsewhere that the announcement felt like it was missing a final line: "And never ask us about a Starfleet Academy show again"
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Yeah, I commented elsewhere that the announcement felt like it was missing a final line: "And never ask us about a Starfleet Academy show again"
They need to go all-in and just hire whatever CW staff is making Riverdale. Or maybe retask the folks doing Wolf Pack. Just start from the position of not giving a shit. Put Jared Padalecki in it.
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They need to go all-in and just hire whatever CW staff is making Riverdale. Or maybe retask the folks doing Wolf Pack. Just start from the position of not giving a shit. Put Jared Padalecki in it.
The Showrunner did work on the CW's Nancy Drew and Tom Swift shows...
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Here's hoping that's good enough.
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I think Academy is to stimulate new characters for the future setting. Having only seen bits and pieces of the Discovery's new era. I can't say I know much about it but they're maybe a lot reexploring going on. Brave Old and New worlds to go.
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It was (almost) good to see Tuvok on this week's Picard... xp
That was fun, I also enjoyed Chintoka returning that's a nice call back as was exactly where the changlings came from another nice call back I wonder if Vadic is he Female Shapeshifter?
I also enjoyed seeing Jack's reveals and the many faces of Data that was well done as was Geordi's emotion
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I wonder if Vadic is he Female Shapeshifter?
I thought that when she was first talking about it but I'm pretty sure she's not. It seems she was a test subject they used when they were developing the morphogenic virus in the first place, and if that's the case she was in Federation custody like two years before the war began, IIRC.
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I thought that when she was first talking about it but I'm pretty sure she's not. It seems she was a test subject they used when they were developing the morphogenic virus in the first place, and if that's the case she was in Federation custody like two years before the war began, IIRC.
Yeah good point they would have needed more than bits of Odo to develop that
What would be cool is if in the Section 31 series they link the Changing capture to that series
Although I suspect that it'll be set closer to Pike as the Gateway said Georgiu was both in the wrong universe and too far from her own time
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Yeah, I commented elsewhere that the announcement felt like it was missing a final line: "And never ask us about a Starfleet Academy show again"
So can we keep asking them about the Section 31 show?
Although, after the last Academy Awards, I get the feeling that such an enterprise now needs Michelle Yeoh more than she needs it.
cheers,
Gabe
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tend to agree. a more likely explination is that offically SNW enterprise undergoes an extensive refit between SNW and TOS
Point taken, but then you also need to assume a refit that transforms the Enterprise from the version seen in "The Cage" to the DISCO/SNW version, and then into the TOS version, which is different from the "Cage" version in only a few small details.
Look at this comparison from Ex Astris Scientia on the relative proportions and layout differences between the TOS and Discoverse versions:
(https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/dis-tos-enterprise.jpg)
It would be nice if this comparison could somehow include the TOS movie version, which the Discoverse version in many ways more strongly resembles than it does the TOS version.
cheers,
Gabe
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Also it's somehow comforting to see that Picard is continuing its tradition of using first third of its season to evoke pity, its second third to give hope, and its third third to crush dreams.
Not sure I would go that far but it's getting difficult to see how they're going to wrap it all up in a satisfying manner with only three episodes to go. In particular, the mystery of who and what Jack really is has been drawn out much too long.
Pacing issues aside, the biggest disappointment for me of this series has been the character of Captain Dips**t From Chicago (that's just soooooo good I won't use his actual name). He seems to have been introduced solely as a foil for Picard, Riker, and Seven. Given his background, I could see him being an irascible chief engineer, like a more grating version of Hemmer, but there's nothing I've seen so far that suggests this man is even remotely qualified to be a Starfleet captain. If anything, the series has just highlighted how out of his league he is dealing with the sorts of situations that the TNG crew faced on an almost regular basis.
cheers,
Gabe
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Pacing issues aside, the biggest disappointment for me of this series has been the character of Captain Dips**t From Chicago (that's just soooooo good I won't use his actual name). He seems to have been introduced solely as a foil for Picard, Riker, and Seven. Given his background, I could see him being an irascible chief engineer, like a more grating version of Hemmer, but there's nothing I've seen so far that suggests this man is even remotely qualified to be a Starfleet captain. If anything, the series has just highlighted how out of his league he is dealing with the sorts of situations that the TNG crew faced on an almost regular basis.
In other words, he's exactly the type of person that a suborned and infiltrated Starfleet would promote. Remember, the problem is worse than we know.
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In other words, he's exactly the type of person that a suborned and infiltrated Starfleet would promote. Remember, the problem is worse than we know.
Thing is, how many infiltrations of Starfleet's highest levels do we need? To me, it's starting to seem like these Changelings infiltrated Starfleet at the same time as the Tal Shiar/Zhat Vash (which was what season 1 of the show was all about).
Hey...what happened to "Commodore Oh", anyway? Hmm...what if she and the rogue Changelings hooked up...
OK, I'll add my own hypothesis as to who "The Face" represents...it's the Zhat Vash. It would certainly explain the interest in Picard's corpse...remember, they hate Synths with the fervor of a doomsday cult, Picard made a powerful enemy of them just by stumbling onto their plan, and since Picard now has a Synth body, that would make him an almost anti-Christ-like figure in their eyes. Using his original biological body as the instrument of their revenge would, for them, be the most poetic justice.
cheers,
Gabe
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Pacing issues aside, the biggest disappointment for me of this series has been the character of Captain Dips**t From Chicago
Actually, thinking about it more, there is one thing about this season I dislike even more than Captain DFS, and that is resurrecting Data again (even if he now effectively has multiple personality disorder). It totally cheapens--negates, really--the closure Data achieved in the last episode of season 1. That last scene between Picard and Data, so lovingly crafted by Michael Chabon, where Data clearly explained WHY he wanted the plug pulled, was the payoff for all the unevenness of the lead-up, and it was ultimately for nought. We now understand that Data can be brought back as many times as necessary...as long as B-4's head is intact, anyway.
This is the difference between having a showrunner who, while they may not be a franchise veteran, is at least a caring, engaging writer who can create and ascribe emotionally credible motivations to characters they've inherited, and one who's a franchise fanboy.
cheers,
Gabe
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but there's nothing I've seen so far that suggests this man is even remotely qualified to be a Starfleet captain. If anything, the series has just highlighted how out of his league he is dealing with the sorts of situations that the TNG crew faced on an almost regular basis
Same. He's just a character that does whatever people tell him, and then yells at them like it's their fault when the predictable consequences of those doings happen. I really, really, really want to like him, but I just can't because his character is written like shit.
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I watched a video from Midnight's Edge, and theyre basically predicting that Star Trek Starfleet Academy will be another teen soap opera a' la Gotham Knights, so its best to stay away.
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I watched a video from Midnight's Edge, and theyre basically predicting that Star Trek Starfleet Academy will be another teen soap opera a' la Gotham Knights, so its best to stay away.
I'm sure Midnight's Edge is right about this, like all the times they predicted a show was being cancelled or Alex Kurtzman has been fired, swearsies realsies guys.
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Midnight's Edge both joke and bunch line to that joke. Anything he has said should be considered to be false unless proven otherwise. But ofc that's on par for the course with him and other youtubers like him.
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I'm sure Midnight's Edge is right about this, like all the times they predicted a show was being cancelled or Alex Kurtzman has been fired, swearsies realsies guys.
Yeah it's like people who take ANYTHING about Star wars Doomcock says seriously it's like seriously, he's never right? why do you keep listening to him?!
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While I tend to agree more often than not he's blowing smoke he did make some observations about season 1 of ST:D and Lower Decks that I actually agree with but in the interests of not venturing any further into what is clearly rule 4 territory I will leave it at that.
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While I tend to agree more often than not he's blowing smoke he did make some observations about season 1 of ST:D and Lower Decks that I actually agree with but in the interests of not venturing any further into what is clearly rule 4 territory I will leave it at that.
There's a huge difference between agreeing with an opinion and believing a lie though.
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LOL plenty of hate for vloggers in this thread but I for one find them entertaining, and way more informative than the usual fawning MSM when it comes to talking about these shows. :thumbsup:
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There's a huge difference between agreeing with an opinion and believing a lie though.
how many opinions out there are based on wishful thinking or paranoid fears, though, Lorcan? Both can end up believing in lies, half-truths, untruths, etc. etc. etc.
Chevy vs. Ford, Ford and Chevy vs. Mopar, any prediction you see on ESPN before the start of the season of your flavor of sportsball, that really KEWL trailer for that utter bomb of a movie (so many of those out there it's almost impossible to merely pick one).
Professional critics often pan good movies for the simple reason they don't like the Genre, or the Director, or the star...on a personal level, and so many critics ADORE stuff the audiences despise.
(again, too many examples to list).
Opinions are even held over things that (GASP!!) haven't happened yet, based on what the opinion holder sees and believes.
Do we need some official, maybe imposed, arbieter and gatekeeper of 'truth'? or can we just let people be wrong?
Like people have been, for decades.
maybe even forever, but with Trek, it's only been decades, and those of us old enough to remember a time before the Internet, when there were these publications called 'Fanzines' and they were mimeographed or zeroxed and held together with staples or manila or just big envelopes?
A lot of mistaken assumptions were put forward...as opinions...in those, sometimes based on things as ephemeral as "Heard it from some guy who's a second cousin to the gal who married the dude supplying crafts at paramount".
The vloggers, even the ones you hate, are a window into a part of the subconscious of the fandom...and unfortunately, from a certain perspective, they end up being right in general while being utterly wrong in specifics.
They end up being wrong a lot, too, but they're often far more entertaining than official press releases from Paramount studios.
The term "Fan" comes from the word "Fanatic", and fanatics generally don't tend to be running on all cylinders where their specific fanaticism is concerned, even when they're reasonable and rational in the rest of their day-to-day lives.
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There's a huge difference between agreeing with an opinion and believing a lie though.
Indeed and people that believe those lies want to think that way thus Midnight's Edge and others take advantage from that by telling they audience what they want to hear resulting circle of misinformation. That's why i have respect for those kind of youtubers and they audience.
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how many opinions out there are based on wishful thinking or paranoid fears, though, Lorcan? Both can end up believing in lies, half-truths, untruths, etc. etc. etc.
Chevy vs. Ford, Ford and Chevy vs. Mopar, any prediction you see on ESPN before the start of the season of your flavor of sportsball, that really KEWL trailer for that utter bomb of a movie (so many of those out there it's almost impossible to merely pick one).
Professional critics often pan good movies for the simple reason they don't like the Genre, or the Director, or the star...on a personal level, and so many critics ADORE stuff the audiences despise.
(again, too many examples to list).
Opinions are even held over things that (GASP!!) haven't happened yet, based on what the opinion holder sees and believes.
Do we need some official, maybe imposed, arbieter and gatekeeper of 'truth'? or can we just let people be wrong?
Like people have been, for decades.
maybe even forever, but with Trek, it's only been decades, and those of us old enough to remember a time before the Internet, when there were these publications called 'Fanzines' and they were mimeographed or zeroxed and held together with staples or manila or just big envelopes?
A lot of mistaken assumptions were put forward...as opinions...in those, sometimes based on things as ephemeral as "Heard it from some guy who's a second cousin to the gal who married the dude supplying crafts at paramount".
The vloggers, even the ones you hate, are a window into a part of the subconscious of the fandom...and unfortunately, from a certain perspective, they end up being right in general while being utterly wrong in specifics.
They end up being wrong a lot, too, but they're often far more entertaining than official press releases from Paramount studios.
The term "Fan" comes from the word "Fanatic", and fanatics generally don't tend to be running on all cylinders where their specific fanaticism is concerned, even when they're reasonable and rational in the rest of their day-to-day lives.
Yeah, but like, Doomcock was literally caught out in a lie. Another Trek Youtuber deliberately posted a false story to Reddit from a burner account and Doomcock claimed it was true based on "insider sources"
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Episode 8 was ok just not great like the others. 7 and 8 should of been together and may of been better if they were both together at the same time. The end of the villain was pretty bad in my opinion.
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Yeah, but like, Doomcock was literally caught out in a lie. Another Trek Youtuber deliberately posted a false story to Reddit from a burner account and Doomcock claimed it was true based on "insider sources"
I remember Doomcock claiming that the primary villain of Picard was going to be Bruce Maddox as an evil industrialist. Inside source told him…
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I just think that if you believe someone who's wrong all the time and peddles bullshit, you're just smart enough to believe someone who's wrong all the time and peddles bullshit.
Episode 8 was surprisingly good. Lor got Durkon-ed, but good.
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How many episodes are left of Picard anyways?
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How many episodes are left of Picard anyways?
Two, I think
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LOL Midnight's Edge and Doomcock are two different people. I dont watch the latter, while ME correctly predicted that Kurtzman would get a new contract, which then led directly to the new Starfleet Academy gig.
Critical Drinker is another who I watch regularly and he managed to get Russel Crowe on a personal interview. Dont exactly know what he's been wrong about either since he predicted that the 3rd season of Picard would be better than the previous two, and it turned out to be true. :))
Disparu is another who is growing on me since I love his non-stop smirky comments.
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Yeah there will be 10 episodes in this season.
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I do wonder about the real big bad. Vadic's escape was either part of a plan that could see the future, her seeing the future, or, y'know, bad writing.
Giving Picard a sliver of credit, who is the actual person who created the Shrike, controlled Vadic, knows Picard was 'impregnated' with something that looks like Irumodic Syndrome, what that means for his offspring, and even maybe predicted Lore wrecking up their plans in "Dominion"?
I've heard people mention Dukat and the pah'wraiths, but I feel like Space Mussolini and the Second-Rate Gods wouldn't be a particularly resonant final boss. Worf would enjoy it. I can imagine Worf going ham on The Second Coming of Dukat while the rest of the crew gets wine drunk in a corner and shares parenting tips, but I don't think Picard would go for it.
There's always Daimon Bok. We've practically danced this dance before in "Bloodlines," so why not go all in?
Sela? Alternate Yar? Alternate Picard? That cloud he merged with one time? The ghost of Jack Crusher I? Ronan? Kevin Uxbridge? A corrupted EMH Mk 1? Evil Dr. Bashir now leading Section 31 and something something eugenics?
To its credit Picard isn't particularly shy about making new canon between the gaps. It could be something referenced in Picard itself, or even based on someone Picard knew well but never met on screen. Given the DS9 connection, I'm betting on Morn.
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Everything they've done with Jack is so obviously pah wraith that it can't be coincidence. The red eyes and "veins", controlling people...it fits too well. However, they've done nothing at all to set up pah wraiths in eight episodes. Not even a hint, which means that they'd be relying on people having a big understanding of a secondary villain from a series that only Worf was in. That leads me to believe that it isn't a pah wraith, because the writers have shown that they're competent. But then heavily hinting at pah wraiths and not using them is a cheap and annoying trick, too, especially when combined with the use of DS9's main villain, the Changelings. I'm not sure what to think anymore.
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I'd rather the Prophets/Pah Wraiths as a chilling secret than the Borg again
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Just realized how pissed Shaw is going to be when he gets pardoned because he saved Earth. You're one of us now, you Chicagoan.
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Everything they've done with Jack is so obviously pah wraith that it can't be coincidence. The red eyes and "veins", controlling people...it fits too well. However, they've done nothing at all to set up pah wraiths in eight episodes. Not even a hint, which means that they'd be relying on people having a big understanding of a secondary villain from a series that only Worf was in. That leads me to believe that it isn't a pah wraith, because the writers have shown that they're competent. But then heavily hinting at pah wraiths and not using them is a cheap and annoying trick, too, especially when combined with the use of DS9's main villain, the Changelings. I'm not sure what to think anymore.
The Pah-wraiths also don't have a particular axe to grind against the Federation/Starfleet as a whole. Sure, they might've hated *Sisko*, but that was more because he was an agent of the Prophets. The only place where Pah-wraiths and hatred of the Federation really intersect is in Dukat--and again, he was Sisko's personal enemy, not Picard's. Still, a Pah-wraith better fits Troi's description of the entity manifesting through Jack as "ancient and weak" than does Locutus.
I wonder if Lt. Mura--who is Bajoran, despite his Human first names--will somehow figure in this?
cheers,
Gabe
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Wild Theory: It's Armus from season one TNG.
Manifestation of an entire species' negative emotions, but confined to a barren planet and unable to leave = "ancient and weak"
Has a particular grudge against Picard because he took away the only toys it had been able to torture for who knows how long and managed to keep him on his home planet and slapped a "no one come here, ever" sticker on the system
Has a malleable form so is similar to the rogue Changelings while still being able to perceive itself as superior to them
Had a significant impact on Deanna, making her the perfect character to help Jack see what's on the other side of the door
Edit: I want it to be the Pah-Wraiths, but I'm expecting it to be the Borg.
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Wild Theory: It's Armus from season one TNG.
Manifestation of an entire species' negative emotions, but confined to a barren planet and unable to leave = "ancient and weak"
Has a particular grudge against Picard because he took away the only toys it had been able to torture for who knows how long and managed to keep him on his home planet and slapped a "no one come here, ever" sticker on the system
Has a malleable form so is similar to the rogue Changelings while still being able to perceive itself as superior to them
Had a significant impact on Deanna, making her the perfect character to help Jack see what's on the other side of the door
And that prank call from the Cerritos is what drove him over the edge
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Wild Theory: It's Armus from season one TNG.
That's a good one.
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I read somewhere that the show runners said that no one will be surprised by Jack's reveal. Granted, that's third-hand information, so carries no real weight, but I'm guessing that it means Borg behind the door. As much as I want something that hasn't been done to death, it's gonna be the Queen. Maybe they got Alice Krige back?
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There are so many theories out there now, but here's another good one...that goes back even further in Trek lore than the Pah-wraiths.
Anyone remember the TOS episode "Wolf In The Fold"?
Cheers,
Gabe
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Well this might be fun...a 4 hour drive to chicago is a little much for a 1 hour show.
https://treknews.net/2023/04/11/star-trek-picard-finale-imax-screenings/?fbclid=IwAR3GjJjxIyXZgs1p30KXk7bfxse11kXyJiRUedMeo6uVVfXkRi9G3U7R_ew
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Also, has anybody else felt some serious Harry Potter vibes from the interactions between Vadic, The Face, and Jack?
Vadic =Prof Quirrell
The Face = disembodied Voldemort (living in the hand rather than on the back of the head)
Jack = the living Horcrux, containing a missing piece of whatever The Face is
Cheers,
Gabe
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No Harry Potter vibes.
Disappointed we're not getting more Vadic. A lot of her actions implied something deeper going on with her, but I guess she was "just crazy, lol" so that explains her swings of mercy/fear, her burning hatred, yawning and joyful calm, and weird solemnity over taking over the Titan. She's just all over the place and I was hoping there was something to that.
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No Harry Potter vibes.
Disappointed we're not getting more Vadic. A lot of her actions implied something deeper going on with her, but I guess she was "just crazy, lol" so that explains her swings of mercy/fear, her burning hatred, yawning and joyful calm, and weird solemnity over taking over the Titan. She's just all over the place and I was hoping there was something to that.
may have ended up on the cutting floor. Remember: television media (webserial media too) ends up with things edited out for time, or expense, or any number of externalities including petty shit within the writing room.
Get our hypothetical staffers, george, stan, Valerie, and Coco.
They get writing assignments from showrunner Fifi.
Fifi gives Stan an assignment and Stan gets this idea for a villain/hero/sidekick/whatever, and interprets fifi's notes in a way that pisses off Coco and Valerie.
Next episode, Fifi gives Coco the assignment, and they completely try to gut what Stan was setting up, which ticks off George, so when it's George's turn, he tries to restore a little bit, only to have Valerie tear it up next episode.
This is what happened to Janeway. Kate Mulgrew had to portray a character written by people who couldn't stand each other's ideas and didn't agree on what her character was actually LIKE.
So...it is probably safe to imagine that Vadic was Janeway'ed in the writing room, or because someone on the executive staff didn't like the thespian, or didn't like the character, or didn't like the direction they were going and pulled a hard yank on the reins (see: Gul Dukat).
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That's part of the old school method of making episodic television. I've read the mimeographed letters where Gene tries to get TOS to stay on his vision of what the future is. It's a team effort and there are a lot of forces pulling it in different directions. You tell the story that you can afford in a week's worth of shooting for 45 minutes. I cut that slack for a lot of TOS through Enterprise. You can have a standalone episode suck.
But there's no excuse for that in a modern, serialized streaming series. You miss a beat and your whole season suffers. That's the choice of format they made and the end result is disappointing; not "it's okay; after two seasons of this and four seasons of Discovery, we understand you have no idea how to write characters while keeping up pacing in this format."
I guess that she didn't disappear like Narek did is an improvement.
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We've finally ascended to the dizzying mediums of pure nostalgia bait.
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It was pretty inevitable given how this series has gone. And it's part of why I can't be angry at series 1 and 2 of Picard for not just being Star Trek: old people on the ship you remember from your youth. Didn't always succeed but tried to be something different. I'm still enjoying series 3 but how much of that is appreciating the writing and acting and direction and how much is endorphins released by familiar patterns?
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It was pretty inevitable given how this series has gone. And it's part of why I can't be angry at series 1 and 2 of Picard for not just being Star Trek: old people on the ship you remember from your youth. Didn't always succeed but tried to be something different. I'm still enjoying series 3 but how much of that is appreciating the writing and acting and direction and how much is endorphins released by familiar patterns?
Why can't it be both? being able to weave nostalgia bait into an enjoyable story can be worth while itself. Good writing is the differance between enjoyable Nostalgia bait like Picard season 3, and Bad Nostalgia bait such as "Somehow Palpatine returned"
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Not gonna lie. Even knowing what was in Bay 12 as soon as they mentioned its existence a couple of weeks ago, even knowing what was about to be revealed when the door opened... I still needed a moment to really gather myself before continuing.
Yeah, it's nostalgia bait, yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense, fine, whatever. For a few minutes, I'm putting all of that aside- there'll be plenty of time to pick at this later. For now... "computer, lights."
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Why can't it be both? being able to weave nostalgia bait into an enjoyable story can be worth while itself. Good writing is the differance between enjoyable Nostalgia bait like Picard season 3, and Bad Nostalgia bait such as "Somehow Palpatine returned"
It absolutely can be, yeah. I was trying to get that across by saying how much was each element, it's clearly not an all or nothing.
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Disappointing? In some ways, yes. But remember, this is Star Trek: *Picard*.
It's the only answer that made sense, really.
Cheers,
Gabe
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I loved the ship reveal, even though we all knew that it was coming. I know that it's the right ship for the crew, and it presses all the nostalgia buttons, but once again... THE DEFIANT IS RIGHT THERE!!! Worf complaining about the weapons, when his baby is RIGHT THERE, with pulse phasers, quantum torpedoes, ablative armor...designed to fight the Borg, terror of the Dominion and Changelings, and it's RIGHT THERE. But this isn't Star Trek: Sisko. Well, let's see what our old friend, with it adequate lighting and carpets, can still do.
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I thought episode 9 was much better than episode 7 or 8. Was it the best episode....well i don't know. It was a lot of fanservice, and also the ships were the best thing. Some things were a little forced. But seeing the band back together on the thing that made them a home it really hit me in the feels.
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I will agree that I can not help but think that there were at least three far better choice I could clearly see on screen or were otherwise mentioned that should have fit the bill just as well.
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Now I just want to know what Worf did to the E... quite clearly it's in little bits
Nice seeing another old character walk on surprisingly haha but to follow Ro's lead talk about tying up loose ends ;D
Shame about the new Excelcior (and it's registration? Should have been an A every day of the week)
And Shaw and Jack ouch
Nice seeing the old bird it looks excellent
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Not a lot of ships in Starfleet. If the whole fleet is there , that is kinda a small fleet, a couple of hundred??
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Funny thing on a rewatch of that last few minutes... DeltaPrise is called by LaForge the 'last ship in the fleet' not connected to the network. Which, yeah, if it's a fleet museum restoration project, that makes sense. There's no reason to put modern communications systems aboard the battleship Wisconsin down in Norfolk for the same reasons- the old dinosaur is retired once and for all. (Begging the question why the fleet museum has ships capable of movement, why there's ammunition to be loaded aboard, why HMS Bounty still had its cloaking dev... you get my point.)
During the scene where the fleet lines up to attack the starbase though, two things stuck out.
1) I swear, my brain is screaming at me that the formation means something or other, like the ships are trying to spell a word or something. I don't think they actually are, rationally, but it's bugging the hell out of me.
2) Pause the scene and look at the sub-formation all the way to the left side of the screen... is that another old dinosaur in there? That big ship in the middle sure looks like a Galaxy-class. With all the newer ships in there, very rarely have we seen anything left over from the Dominion War even (Defiant is retired, for example!), it's interesting to see what must be a half-century old tub like a Galaxy got a refit with modern systems like that.
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Not a lot of ships in Starfleet. If the whole fleet is there , that is kinda a small fleet, a couple of hundred??
I thought that too
Maybe just the primary fleet if newer ships? Didn't look like a lot of older designs
But yeah it's weird I guess klingons are friends Romulans are crippled Cardassians i guess similarly while they said noone had dealt with the borg in 20 years its a golden age maybe
I think the upgraded Galaxy is the Ross Class from STO
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I think the upgraded Galaxy is the Ross Class from STO
Yeah, Memory Alpha says the Ross was in the episode, and the class also appeared in the first and last episodes of Picard series 2
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1) I swear, my brain is screaming at me that the formation means something or other, like the ships are trying to spell a word or something. I don't think they actually are, rationally, but it's bugging the hell out of me.
I tried to as well, but when it wasn't immediately forthcoming, I figured it was just a general formation. Props to Picard for doing what DS9 never did and creating a believable 3-dimensional starship formation.
Not a lot of ships in Starfleet. If the whole fleet is there , that is kinda a small fleet, a couple of hundred??
<<Insert Small-Starfleet-Theory-Argument.txt>>
In TOS and early TNG, Starfleet was small. Officers knew each other. IIRC, Riker had a close friend die in relation to the incident that got Ro originally put in the stockade. When Picard meets his co-conspirators in "Conspiracy" he knows them each, even if it's by reputation. O'Brien served with Captain Maxwell. Some of that is for dramatic conceit where characters we know already know these characters so the viewer cares a little more about them, yeah, but it creates the impression the fleet is kinda small.
Wolf 359 represents the loss of about 40 ships and that devastates Starfleet. It's mentioned several times throughout TNG and it seems to force a peace settlement with the Cardassians that sets the backdrop for DS9 and a lot of the canon that comes after.
Starfleet obviously rebuilds to the point that they're throwing 40-50 ship fleets at the Dominion, but I don't take that as a 'natural' size of Starfleet. The Frontier Day fleet represents something closer to my preferred size, even if it's in sharp contrast to what we've seen in both previous seasons of Picard (and also Starfleet is still a cold, bureaucratic organization instead of the professional boys club it could sometimes feel like in earlier depictions).
Also slightly surprised that the Excelsior wasn't the original Excelsior-class. Just so they could give us another old girl we recognized right before they destroyed her.
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To me the fleet formation looks like symbols we have seen on Borg consols to represent their 'written language' before. Also another fairly substantial plot hole is why kill the unassimilated? Stun them, put them in the brig for later assimilation. Major plot hole number three why destroy planetary defenses? Earth Space Dock is clearly Starfleet run and people would have been using transporters to get to/from it. For that matter Earth should already largely be assimilated itself since it should be trivial for the Changelings to have done the same thing down there and we saw from Picard Season 1 that people use transporters on a daily basis. By extension every major power should be in similarly bad shape. So yeah I already know the ending is going to be super unsatisfying for me because the Borg should have complete and total victory now.
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This season is now officially The Blues Brothers in Space. "We got the band back together!" :D
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This season is now officially The Blues Brothers in Space. "We got the band back together!" :D
If they save the Federation by singing the theme to Rawhide non-stop for hours it'll be the best Trek ever.
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That was crazy ending for episode 9.
The transporter being cause of borg DNA (which I'm surprise for a mechanical race to HAVE anything biological since they distaste that.) from Picard's old body. I think they just partially did it so they could shuttle in to NCC-1701-D. I think Enterprise-F's retirement was alot crap to throw the viewers off thinking she was being squirreled away.
I'm at lost what they're going to do against the Borg with themselves and Enterprise-D. She outdate in comparison to other ships of the fleet. I think maybe in Jack's last act, he will stand up and sacrifice himself to save everyone or Picard will at this point. I don't think the later is as likely.
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That was crazy ending for episode 9.
The transporter being cause of borg DNA (which I'm surprise for a mechanical race to HAVE anything biological since they distaste that.) from Picard's old body.
The Borg aren't a fully mechanical race. They name comes from cyborg, and that's literally what they are. "We will add your technological and biological distinctiveness to our own." If some part of an entity's biology is useful to them, then they'll use it. They take the, well, best of both worlds.
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Is anyone else hoping that they will go full "Yesterday's Enterprise" in the last episode?
Complete with a speech worthy of Shakespeare, and Jean-Luc out-maneuvering the Borg Queen in a battle of the level of the Mutara Nebula.
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The Borg aren't a fully mechanical race. They name comes from cyborg, and that's literally what they are. "We will add your technological and biological distinctiveness to our own." If some part of an entity's biology is useful to them, then they'll use it. They take the, well, best of both worlds.
I'm fairly certain the whole alter your DNA to make implanting the technological side thing is originally from Voyager, an awful lot of what seems weird and new this year is actually deep continuity dives or based around prior events, like Picard hearing the Borg in First Contact being explained by the DNA package they left in him
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...actually deep continuity dives or based around prior events, like Picard hearing the Borg in First Contact being explained by the DNA package they left in him
I always took that as artistic license. Otherwise you gotta ask, "Jean-Luc, if you can still hear the Borg in your head...maybe have Starfleet do some deep tissue scans? Genetic sequencing? Dissection?"
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I always took that as artistic license. Otherwise you gotta ask, "Jean-Luc, if you can still hear the Borg in your head...maybe have Starfleet do some deep tissue scans? Genetic sequencing? Dissection?"
What they've done in Picard is clearly an explanation after the fact, what would have been called a retcon before that became more of a general term for broad-sweeping changes. But First Contact clearly shows that Starfleet doesn't trust Picard to be in the battle of Sector 001 because of his history with the Borg, it could be he reported the voices to them and their distrust was a consequence
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In one TNG comic book they had Locutus as one of the Picard's multiple personalities alongside with his base personality and one that he picked from that alien probe.
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I think as we've seen with the more recent writing for the shows is it depends on the show runner how their interpreting how the universe works.
If works for their version of the story, they'll do it.
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I think as we've seen with the more recent writing for the shows is it depends on the show runner how their interpreting how the universe works.
If works for their version of the story, they'll do it.
That has been true for all TV shows from the beginning of time.
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That has been true for all TV shows from the beginning of time.
yeah the idea of hard canon in a setting is honestly for TV and movies more a invention of nerds trying to one up each other with obscure triva
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yeah the idea of hard canon in a setting is honestly for TV and movies more a invention of nerds trying to one up each other with obscure triva
*double-checks what forum I'm on*
...checks out. ^-^
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*double-checks what forum I'm on*
...checks out. ^-^
NO IT DOESN'T! THATS NOT CANON AT ALL! :)
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NO IT DOESN'T! THATS NOT CANON AT ALL! :)
but..but...but... in a two second blurry image of a deleted scene from the most obscure episode of season X!!!
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I had revelation ignore me, I got get this out my system as being disfranchised Star Trek fan since Generations (but still love the universe) Season 3 as a whole, screams to me this is retro Trek nostalgia injection-checker season. I will not spectulate the plot's ending. However, it seems all the ships they've leaked such as the Reliant Class, Excelsior II Class (the original is in the museum) "Neo" Constitution III Class Star ship. With the appearance of D and way Enterprise-F was presented with Admiral Shelby in that unpractical command chair/baby chair thing she was in. I get jess that Enterprise-F is not long for this world. However, one of the leaked ships shown off was Rose Class. Variant of the Galaxy Class Starship, which strikes me as a fitting way to say good by the Enterprise-D (retired or other wise). Enterprise-G. Its long shot for sure, but good guess.
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Well, in 700 years they've only gotten to an Enterprise-J, so either the name gets retired for a bit at some point, or those ships start lasting a tad longer. Of course, that was the future of Enterprise. They're going to need to make some changes to the time line to avoid the dopey future that Discovery discovered. "I screamed real loud, and it blew up all the warp cores!"
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Someone predicted Picard joining the collective and he and Jack and the other assimilated Starfleet crew counter-assimilate the Borg, which is a stupider version of something I made up for a Trek RPG I ran 9 years ago, which sounds about right for the series.
I give Picard this though; I can never predict what it's going to do next.
They're going to need to make some changes to the time line to avoid the dopey future that Discovery discovered. "I screamed real loud, and it blew up all the warp cores!"
They will retcon that kid into the phoenix force before they remove that from canon. It does not spark joy, but this is Star Trek now.
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There won't be a Section 31 series :(
But there will be an movie!
https://intl.startrek.com/news/star-trek-section-31-original-movie-event-michelle-yeoh
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Section 31 is getting they own movie eh? Well that's interesting and unexpected.
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IMO Section 31 is the least Star Trek thing in Star Trek. If people like that sort of thing more power to them but that's a hard pass for me.
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Section 13 is getting they own movie eh? Well that's interesting and unexpected.
I was kinda hoping for that not to be created. Section 31 was protrayed as the bad guy in the federation so many times, so why make a show with Emperor Georgiou isn't exactly a good person follow.
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Bad guys can have they charm and have people follow story based around them. Death Note is good example of this kind of story were protagonist is villain and that is very popular so I get possible appeal for movie based around Section 31.
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Maybe the movie will be centered around Section 31, but they remain the antagonist - say, one of their operatives decides they go too far and tries to get out of the group. That way you keep S31 as the main attraction, and they're still the bad guys.
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Oh yeah that could work. Star Trek take on Jason Bourne.
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Strange New Worlds 15th June
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrOT5VAg1lB/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= (https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrOT5VAg1lB/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=)
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Klingons!
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Proper Klingons.
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Time travel episode. Sigh...
Damon.
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Proper Klingons.
Now we’re going to need an explanation why they don’t look like TOS Klingons (or ENT Augment Klingons, if you like) in this time frame.
Cheers,
Gabe
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I hope they just have TOS and DISCO Klingons in the same episode
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Now we’re going to need an explanation why they don’t look like TOS Klingons (or ENT Augment Klingons, if you like) in this time frame.
Cheers,
Gabe
They don't discuss it with outsiders.
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Klingons!
They just cant seem to make up their minds when it comes to the Klingons!!
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Now we’re going to need an explanation why they don’t look like TOS Klingons (or ENT Augment Klingons, if you like) in this time frame.
Cheers,
Gabe
This lot avoided the Augment virus, the end. Don't expect it to be spelled out though as...
They don't discuss it with outsiders.
This trailer makes me want this to be a 20 episode season (I wanted that in 1st) it's just very more ish
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They just cant seem to make up their minds when it comes to the Klingons!!
I think the forehead ridges look the most like those of the (briefly seen) TMP Klingons, when the look was introduced. Subsequent appearances introduced more individual variation and even differences between family groups.
Cheers,
Gabe
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Given how the the CEO of Paramount (then) was cause of the deformed looking Klingons indirectly for Discovery, I honestly don't believe it will ever seen getting it straight.
There too many people who has nothing to do with the franchise, getting involved (who don't care about it beyond money) making questionable decisions.
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Picard gets the send off it deserves
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Well... that finale was something.
A few thoughts:
+Sorry, president WHO? ;)
+Good to see that the real Tuvok didn't die a sad off-screen death. I was kind of bummed at the idea that after that long life he had, he just kind of got stuffed in a closet somewhere. (Granted, there's no reason the changelings would keep him alive- that just creates loose ends that have no reason to risk- but whatever.)
+Doc Crusher has some rather good aim!
+I've never had the impression that the Galaxy was a particularly maneuverable ship- maybe it's just the size of it, or that it used physical models during TNG, but it always seemed kind of lumbering and... not SLOW, but not as agile as something like a Defiant or something like that. Apparently that is not the case. (I half-expected to see the Millennium Falcon in formation on the way out)
+They did a great job with the Queen, making her look like the past few decades really have done a number on her and her remaining Collective. She looked like a mile of bad road, and based on what happened to her in the Voyager finale that checks out.
+Credit to Spacedock for standing up to that barrage as long as it did.
+Wait, -1701G? Seriously, the F didn't make it? They really are going to run out of letters.
+If the post-credits scene isn't setting up a new show starring Jack and the G-crew, I'll eat my hat.
I won't lie. I'm torn on the season overall. Scrape away the enjoyable fan service and the story doesn't make a ton of sense, the bad-guy alliance doesn't really hold up all that well, there's just a lot of things that don't hold up to really thinking them through. And you know what? That's okay. Sometimes Trek is at its best when it throws logic out the airlock and says 'let's do something hammy and stupid', and that's S3 of Picard. Stupid and fun. It's a summer blockbuster movie in weekly parts- turn your brain off and enjoy. And as it turns out, I did. Good to see these characters one last time, good to see the Delta on one last job before museum duty,good to (hopefully) put a final exclamation point on the Borg storylines once and for all, and hey, hopefully set up a strong future for the franchise (along with Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, obviously). Certainly it was a better season than S2 was (not a high bar to clear, mind you).
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Well... that finale was something.
A few thoughts:
+Wait, -1701G? Seriously, the F didn't make it? They really are going to run out of letters.
+If the post-credits scene isn't setting up a new show starring Jack and the G-crew, I'll eat my hat.
Well, we know the F was scheduled for decommissioning anyway. Frontier Day was always suppose to be it’s last hoorah.
And that poor space frame. The Titan, the Titan A, and now the Enterprise G? I hope the ships computer systems aren’t having a massive identity crisis.
I wonder if Troi is going to get a call back to active duty? Tens of thousands of younger Star Fleet officers now have the traumatic memories of having murdered their superior officers and shipmates. The Star Fleet Corp of Counselors is going to be busy.
And yeah, they need to green light the Captain Seven show. And, at some point, they better receive visitors/guest stars from an Excelsior II class USS Shaw or we all riot.
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Picard gets the send off it deserves
Mid episode, which is better than Picard deserves. The universe is changed forever but it's not. The dangers have never been greater but we walk away clean. When you blow up the bad guy all the bad guy things (TM) fail. Dr. Crusher makes a magic tech that fixes Borg and Changelings. The Borg Queen screeches and monologues. The Borg are worse than ever because now they just want to murder everyone like any other hackneyed villain.
It was fun to see the Enterprise-D go fast and furious, something which it's always been able to do canonically, but it's never really done for thematic and technical reasons. Watching Seven integrate the Titan, command codes, the fleet formation, and the cloaking device into a clever play for time was satisfying.
We end on another poker game reminding us we did all of this thirty ****** years ago.
I almost thought we'd get away without a lazy teaser tag ripped off of the MCU, but I guess not.
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Yeah...the plot of this season made even less sense than the first two did. But, you know what? Even with all the plot holes and nitpicks...I don't care. It brought the gang all back. It gave us Shaw (who is now in my top three fav Trek captains along with Picard and Pike). It finally allowed Seven to finally blossom to her full potential.
I enjoy Star Trek, I enjoy all aspects of it. And enjoy all of the different shows to varying degrees. But TNG will always be the one closest to my heart. Watching that finally scene, I had to pause it several times because I was weeping to much to see the TV. It was like I was a kid again.These characters were role models for me in a way. I looked up to them. Took inspiration from the ideals the show tried to portray. And watching all together again like this...it was as if I could conect again with my younger self and feel that idealism again. And that I think is the best of what Trek is.
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I have to say I never thought that Star Trek would go full Star Wars like that but ok. :thumbsup:
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Picard. I didn't see anything new or bold in the story, but that's not always important. It was well told, with a fantastic cast that I was very pleased to see together again. It was a proper send off, which we were denied after Nemesis bombed. I smiled through the whole thing, and that's more important to me than anything else. I am content.
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I have to say I never thought that Star Trek would go full Star Wars like that but ok. :thumbsup:
There was still the TNG element to it, Picards solo mission trying to talk, it's his way, the others did the fighting just like the series I liked how Riker and Worf weren't ready to abandon him to the borg, goes back to Best of Both Worlds when they wouldn't leave him as locutus.
I'm torn on the G in all honesty, I think I'd have preferred it as a Titan show (if it happens) with the Enterprise G showing up. I also don't like Jack's job lol give him helm or something (although I did like his nepotism comment on the shuttle
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There was still the TNG element to it, Picards solo mission trying to talk, it's his way, the others did the fighting just like the series I liked how Riker and Worf weren't ready to abandon him to the borg, goes back to Best of Both Worlds when they wouldn't leave him as locutus.
I'm torn on the G in all honesty, I think I'd have preferred it as a Titan show (if it happens) with the Enterprise G showing up. I also don't like Jack's job lol give him helm or something (although I did like his nepotism comment on the shuttle
Im very much against the "G". The Enterprise has always been the ship on the line with at least D,E, and F. So the G is a pretty bad downgrade. With the fleet being some order of crap since the battle, how about make the D convert it in to a "modern" ship like the Iowa class battleships and make that the show.
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There has been talk online about a "Star Trek: Legacy" show with the "titan crew" which some of the writers/creators have been hinting/talking about wanting to do, I guess this all but confirms it.
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I got the impression they wanted to spin off from Picard as other youtuber I've watch felt the same way. Seem of waste of a caste new people and money dumped into the franchise. That little bit with Ensign Crusher with Q seem to suggest something.
Then again there was talk of expenses needing to be put down, such as Discovery's shorten run. Thou Academy is suppose to be from that advanced timeline vs Picard's error.
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I think a spin-off from the end of Picard would make great sense as long as they don't turn it into another SNW (we already have that format). With Picard ended and Discovery having it's final season there is easily room for a new story-driven show and they have set this up nicely now.
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Hopefully, it won't turn out to be unlucky for the new ship. Remember the last time they renamed a ship for Enterprise? (Warp drive breaking noses from Enterprise-A ensues.)
I think it was kinda of a sad thing to do F. We see it for couple seconds and then it's gone. I think they should have fleshed out why the F was prematurely "Retired". I think there was something else going on other than off-screen decisions to change it out for Constitution III Class ship. I know it's show, frankly the looks don't matter as ship goes. While I love the seeing mish-mash of old and new designs....it doesn't seem to fit in 25th Century. TO me, it seem like they wanted stop Enterprise from being a hyper advanced flagship and make it into working ship again. While I don't mind that, I don't think they needed to have had a F in first place, except for connection to STO.
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Not only do they need counselors, they're going to need Captains, XO's, and other senior officers. The whole fleet needs their O3's and up replaced. Star Fleet's in a rebuilding year or 5.
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Not only do they need counselors, they're going to need Captains, XO's, and other senior officers. The whole fleet needs their O3's and up replaced. Star Fleet's in a rebuilding year or 5.
Time to use the Reserve Activation Clause and bring back thousands of retired personnel!
Cheers,
Gabe
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Not only do they need counselors, they're going to need Captains, XO's, and other senior officers. The whole fleet needs their O3's and up replaced. Star Fleet's in a rebuilding year or 5.
Yeah. I don't think that's going to come up again.
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My grade for season 3:
6/10.
The only reason it is that high is I have to admit they did a good job with the 'memberberries' but everything else about it was pretty subpar. It also helps season 1 and 2 set such low bars to clear for it to be an improvement.
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I think a spin-off from the end of Picard would make great sense as long as they don't turn it into another SNW (we already have that format). With Picard ended and Discovery having it's final season there is easily room for a new story-driven show and they have set this up nicely now.
Yeah, it'd be interesting to have a show in each of the TOS/SNW, TNG/Picard, and post-Burn DISCO eras, and then alternate between them which is self-contained stories, which is a long-term drama and all that
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It would be nice to have a Star Trek story set in the modern 2401 because that is the current timeline. The Disco is way to far ahead of the timeline where things can change or not. Lower Decks is in the past now, and so is Prodigy.
Keep the timeline moving forward, don't make it go back and forth.
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To be fair it was Enterprise that started that trend so it's not new thing.
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To be fair it was Enterprise that started that trend so it's not new thing.
True but when Enterprise did it, it was the only show going.
Star Wars is doing it too. You got Bad Batch, Kenobi, Mando, Resistance so its really nothing new, but darn confusing.
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Keep the timeline moving forward, don't make it go back and forth.
I'll be happy for you if this happens, but Star Trek isn't really about the setting. The only really unique thing about it is the Federation which Treks both old and new don't treat as anything more special than a slightly-shinier protagonist faction. It's got relatable cultural mores and can be alternatively supportive or oppositional to our main characters depending on the story. The warp drives, phasers, space-Elves, and Klingons pale in comparison to the idea of the Federation and the Federation is nothing special.
Telling more Starfleet stories just to describe things happening--not because there's an interesting story to tell--is just putting Starfleet on a treadmill where they constantly stumble or jump over hurdles of different sizes. A bunch of things both good and bad will happen to people who do not exist. They'll probably find a way out of it (hopefully clever but probably not) or maybe they won't and they'll die because the actor wants to do movies or said a slur on Weibo. It doesn't make a lot of difference: a series of imaginary events will happen, as they do in any soap opera, comic book, Dragonball series, or CW show.
Imagine a smelly guy in a graphic tee going "Wouldn't it be awesome if..." sitting on your couch forever.
Anyone could make "what happens next." AO3 is filled with that fanfiction. Star Trek Online has reportedly been doing interesting things with "what happens next" for years. A LLM can do it for you at speed. Are those options any less good or interesting because they haven't been anointed by the committee that runs the Star Trek department of the corporation which legally owns the Star Trek license? A committee that's not even the same people who made the stories that made you care in the first place? A committee that's going to discard any of what happened last week so they can make a shinier arrangement of recognizable people and places next week?
I don't mean to come off as cynical or jaded. Clearly, Paramount is able to make enough Treks that they can--and probably should--make one that moves the timeline forward. I've been saying Star Trek could be an MCU-like franchise for decades; there's room for it. And a number of folks do like the stories they're telling and as long as they continue to like those stories, Paramount should keep telling them.
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I want an R-rated series focusing on Klingon politics and intrigues.
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I want an R-rated series focusing on Klingon politics and intrigues.
The people who lost their mind about Tilly swearing will love that
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I want an R-rated series focusing on Klingon politics and intrigues.
As long as it features long klingon opera sequences.
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[Rant]
There been speculation the reason why Enterprise F was "retired" was in fact because it was designed for Star Trek Online (non-Paramount owned), they wanted entirely something new. If is that exactly goes in line Paramount's behavior bad calls. Nearly all the ships while neet, but were all retro-designs. So to connect with viewing audience vs new ships, not mishmash of old ones. ST:TMP's Enterprise / Excelsior mash up ( I know its cool, but design does not fit 25th century now.)
Their going with Starfleet Academy set in the Discovery's post series era. Who hell wants that? They've been pushing the academy story for decades. I still not interested in it. (that's just me)
I would been interested in Enterprise-G's further adventures, but i don't get vibe it's not going happen given Paramount's current financial changes.
[/Rant]
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I'll be happy for you if this happens, but Star Trek isn't really about the setting. The only really unique thing about it is the Federation which Treks both old and new don't treat as anything more special than a slightly-shinier protagonist faction. It's got relatable cultural mores and can be alternatively supportive or oppositional to our main characters depending on the story. The warp drives, phasers, space-Elves, and Klingons pale in comparison to the idea of the Federation and the Federation is nothing special.
Star Trek has always been a reflection of the current culture. TOS was a Star Trek that showed that there was hope that humanity could get past their barbarism, "choose not to kill...today!", and come together as a species to accomplish great things. TNG took that a step further, arguably too many steps further, to the point that sometimes, especially early on, the characters didn't feel realistically human.
Meanwhile, here in 2023, does that core conceit of Star Trek feel as realistic as it once did?
Let's be honest, though: that tone started to shift with DS9 and the Dominion War storyline in particular. It pushed the idea that, yes, we can have a paradise, if we do the work, and if we keep doing the work.
[Rant]
There been speculation the reason why Enterprise F was "retired" was in fact because it was designed for Star Trek Online (non-Paramount owned), they wanted entirely something new. If is that exactly goes in line Paramount's behavior bad calls. Nearly all the ships while neet, but were all retro-designs. So to connect with viewing audience vs new ships, not mishmash of old ones. ST:TMP's Enterprise / Excelsior mash up ( I know its cool, but design does not fit 25th century now.)
I suspect CBS doesn't actually own the rights to the art for the Enterprise-F, or the other ships created for Star Trek Online. Negotiating for a one-off appearance once in this season as a homage to STO was probably a hell of a lot easier than for creating another TV series using that asset.
Also, the Enterprise-F is gigantic. Using the TitanEnterprise-G, a much smaller ship made for the TV series, allows for more focused, tighter storytelling in an era where episode counts are a hell of a lot lower than they were in the '80s and '90s.
Their going with Starfleet Academy set in the Discovery's post series era. Who hell wants that? They've been pushing the academy story for decades. I still not interested in it. (that's just me)
*raises hand* Uh, me. I the hell want that. With Tilly as a character and all the Jett Reno snark they can muster.
I would been interested in Enterprise-G's further adventures, but i don't get vibe it's not going happen given Paramount's current financial changes.
Really? It seems more likely to me with every passing day. Especially given they're describing the new Section 31 movie as kicking off "Phase 2" of the new Trek series, so to speak.
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Star Trek has always been a reflection of the current culture. TOS was a Star Trek that showed that there was hope that humanity could get past their barbarism, "choose not to kill...today!", and come together as a species to accomplish great things. TNG took that a step further, arguably too many steps further, to the point that sometimes, especially early on, the characters didn't feel realistically human.
Meanwhile, here in 2023, does that core conceit of Star Trek feel as realistic as it once did?
Friends was a reflection of current culture. Every show is a reflection of the culture that makes it. That means nothing.
The Original Series was--is--commendable because it was forward thinking and bold enough to hope for the future.
Was that hope easier in the past? Was the man standing in 1966 and looking forward seeing a picture less bleak than ours? Was a better future more realistic then? I don't think so. ******. Cities were on fire. Public officials were being shot. Nuclear war and brinksmanship were core to our political experience. There were political witchhunts and racism and it always seemed like the biggest idiot had the megaphone.
30 years on, 60 years on, is it harder for you to hope? Is it harder for you to believe in that better human who sees us as the same oddity we see them? Harder to believe in that man of 2266 than the Klingon or the Romulan? I think it is and I think that's part of being human. It's worse now because we're living through it and we don't know the end of the 20's like we do the end of the 60's, or the 80's. We take for granted the good that's changed over the past few years and we see so much more of the bad.
I can't tell you if things have gotten better or worse in the past 30 or 50 years. I can't tell you if they're going to get worse or better in the next 10 or 20. I can say it's harder to hope because it's gotten harder for me to hope. Because I'm getting older. I'm aware there are fewer days ahead than behind. We all are. Culture changes and it doesn't care a damned thing about you if you're over 30. Y'know, c'est la vie.
We aren't special. That guy in 1966 was just like us. He saw Star Trek and he hoped. Despite everything. So yeah, I'd like a Star Trek that's about a better future. I'd like a Star Trek where we see ourselves in every alien, but the humans are kinda weird. I want the franchise to be run by a lil freak with a messy life and big ideas, a preachy ethos, and tight scripts that make me roll my eyes and dig deep to engage with them. I don't want to watch a series that's given up. I live in a society that's all but given up. I don't want a series to jerk me off with shit that's easy to believe (The Expanse is good and good at that) or numb me with familiar, meaningless shit (vodka is good and good at that).
I'd like to be challenged with what made the best parts of me me and--it's a bit of conceit--I'd like to believe those parts could challenge the next generation. No matter how bleak you feel, I gotta think they deserve at least that.
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*raises hand* Uh, me. I the hell want that. With Tilly as a character and all the Jett Reno snark they can muster.
Seconded! I sure as hell want it too.
Really? It seems more likely to me with every passing day. Especially given they're describing the new Section 31 movie as kicking off "Phase 2" of the new Trek series, so to speak.
I think they put it in the credits as a test to gauge response. It's been very positive (except the standard haters, but noone gives a shit about them anyways) and Alex K has been hinting that they are being listened to.
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This is superb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0U-O7f53kg&ab_channel=OTOY
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Finished Picard 3. I was not expecting the big bads to be these. But all in all it felt like a nostalgia trip. And since I do not like TNG much it did not ring very well for me. Still, A LOT better than the previous 2 seasons. Man vs Machine and friendly machine vs enemy machine (borg, data family...) seems to be the general arc of these series. I liked Worf not being an incompetent buffoon for once.
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Admittedly being better than Season 1 and 2 of Picard isn't a high hurdle to get over. Its like Wonder Woman was praised as being better than batman vs superman (and it was a perfectly decent movie) But honestly forcing people to sit in front of a screen playing LOUD white noise, random vine booms, badly played flutes and screaming childeren is better than Batman vs Superman.
But Season 3 was honestly very good, even if it did rely a lot on memberberries a lot it was still very enjoyable and clearly doing everything it could to basically forget, ignore or overwrite Season 1 and 2.
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I like this little statement when it comes to "Fanservice" and "Member Berrys"
Fanservice is Customer Service. The big-time fans are your biggest customer, and you want to do.
Yes Season 3 of Picard is huge in Fanservice....but its what the true fans wanted. When Fanservice is done right it goes so much further, season 1 and 2 had nothing to do with Fanservice.
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I like this little statement when it comes to "Fanservice" and "Member Berrys"
Fanservice is Customer Service. The big-time fans are your biggest customer, and you want to do.
Yes Season 3 of Picard is huge in Fanservice....but its what the true fans wanted. When Fanservice is done right it goes so much further, season 1 and 2 had nothing to do with Fanservice.
Amen :) I recall reading somewhere that Patrick Stuart when he was pitching for Picard he didn't want anything to do with TNG stuff or nothing like it and instead we got Season 1 which wasn't very well recived, and then they tried to make it a bit more Star Trek with Season 2, which also went down like the Hindenberg. And so the new director said "No lets make Star Trek" instead of vanity projects.
Season 3 has its flaws, the biggest being its a bit too short, it could have done with 2 more eps to flesh things out a bit more and yeah there's some plot inconsistencies but nothing major and the series has a nice, tight story.
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This is superb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0U-O7f53kg&ab_channel=OTOY
It was very emotional and I loved it. But at the same time I'm seeing the Federation, a society with tractor beams and anti-gravity, using cables to lift something, and I'm seeing Spock remembering an event that he didn't witness.
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...but its what the true fans wanted.
That's a bit "no true Scotsman." I'm glad some/most folks liked it, but as someone who considers themselves a bit of a fan of the series (https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tbntb/episodes/All-Good-Things-e1gt5hi), I did not want to see the Enterprise D drift like it was Initial D. I didn't want to see yet another Borg story where The Entire Federation Is At Stake and they're defeated because Riker clicked the banner ad that said "The Borg Hate This One Trick."
It's an okay story with Worf, Riker, and Seven getting good arcs. Crusher gets a cool twist on her character.
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That's a bit "no true Scotsman." I'm glad some/most folks liked it, but as someone who considers themselves a bit of a fan of the series (https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tbntb/episodes/All-Good-Things-e1gt5hi), I did not want to see the Enterprise D drift like it was Initial D. I didn't want to see yet another Borg story where The Entire Federation Is At Stake and they're defeated because Riker clicked the banner ad that said "The Borg Hate This One Trick."
It's an okay story with Worf, Riker, and Seven getting good arcs. Crusher gets a cool twist on her character.
Was Season 3 perfect....no....nothing is. Yeah I wasnt too happy with the Borg threat again, was liking it more when it was the Changelings. The Star Wars ending with the D was a little to much. So again sometimes Fanservice is just thrown in to be thrown in noticeable and sometimes annoying, and there was lots of that in Season 3.
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I also thought the Changeling thing was more interesting than the Borg thing. I was also hoping Vadic could coalesce into an actual character; there was some real promise in her shifts in perspective and her swings between moods. Obviously Amanda Plummer could have played the midranges that brought them all together. The action was deftly executed and I know it's popular to hate on Jack Crusher for being a bit of a Gary Stu, but I thought he was alright.
I also appreciate all the effort they went to to make the Enterprise D bridge again. I don't know how expensive that kind of thing is, but I know it's expensive. I do wonder how they can recoup the costs.
-Strange New Worlds finds a crashed ship and they don't know it's from the future?
-Jack Crusher and his friends on the Titan use it as a holographic hangout?
-"Officer Training with Worf" a series of shorts where Worf explains Federation/Starfleet professional etiquette to Klingons. Like the Los Pollos Hermanos Employee Training (http://"https://youtu.be/B9RgougnhiE") videos.
-Whoever runs the fleet museum uses it as an office...and also everyone visits them for their wisdom? Like...a Geordi hologram and officers go to it for advice?
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OK, 2 episodes in at Picard S3 (skipped S2 because S1 was awful) and... Riker only made it to captain? He must have done something wrong not to get to admiral, or is there only a finite slot of admirals in Starfleet? ???
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This is somewhat addressed in S1 as he basically went into a 'reserve' status to be with his family. Since he was not actively serving he stayed at Captain.
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There appears be frustration going on with show runners trying get Academy going, once Picard wrapped up. There had been jabber about series mentioned as Legacy, which suggested it was thought to be following experiences of NCC-1701-G. However, when asked the Star Trek heads squashed mentioning of it to focus on Academy. Fandom more loudly in some places for that, than Academy. However, I believe Paramount+ is trying cut down on expensive shows, so it will likely be Academy and SNW only with exception of Section 31 tv-stream movie their rolling out.
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There appears be frustration going on with show runners trying get Academy going, once Picard wrapped up. There had been jabber about series mentioned as Legacy, which suggested it was thought to be following experiences of NCC-1701-G. However, when asked the Star Trek heads squashed mentioning of it to focus on Academy. Fandom more loudly in some places for that, than Academy. However, I believe Paramount+ is trying cut down on expensive shows, so it will likely be Academy and SNW only with exception of Section 31 tv-stream movie their rolling out.
From what I've seen in my own little slice of the internet (admittedly very small), the reception to Academy is tepid at best. A show following Seven and the crew of the Ent-G seems to be the clear favorite. They listened to the fans about giving Pike a show. Failing to do so with Legacy could lead to people losing interest. (At least that seems to be the vibe I'm seeing.)
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That's a bit "no true Scotsman." I'm glad some/most folks liked it, but as someone who considers themselves a bit of a fan of the series (https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tbntb/episodes/All-Good-Things-e1gt5hi), I did not want to see the Enterprise D drift like it was Initial D. I didn't want to see yet another Borg story where The Entire Federation Is At Stake and they're defeated because Riker clicked the banner ad that said "The Borg Hate This One Trick."
It's an okay story with Worf, Riker, and Seven getting good arcs. Crusher gets a cool twist on her character.
I don't see it as a "no scotsman argument" but rather simply a "what the fans in general" wanted. did ALL fans want X Y and Z? no but a large percentage of the fans likely did
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"but its what the true fans wanted" literally means "if you didn't want this, you aren't a true fan."
As for what most people want, I'm wondering where you get that. I know some people liked it. I wouldn't be surprised if most folks who were already a fan of the franchise did like it--I'd be sad but not surprised. But I ask how you'd gain the data to say absolutely most people liked it, and say it with moral certainty.
The folks in my sphere who've seen the series or just seen the marketing materials weren't impressed. Folks in Star Trek spaces online liked it, but those spaces are for people who by definition like Star Trek. Tangential spaces like this one seem a bit more mixed. I don't know if most people of any category liked it or didn't like it. I'm not even sure how to measure that, so it seems like a weird thing to say.
Whatever they do with the franchise next, I do hope Terry Matalas lives a long and happy life which doesn't involve working with Star Trek ever again. As for specific show, I'm indifferent until they put Tyler Lawrence Gray or a Tyler Lawrence Gray-equivalent into the Academy series.
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This is somewhat addressed in S1 as he basically went into a 'reserve' status to be with his family. Since he was not actively serving he stayed at Captain.
In some respects it seems almost criminal that Riker still hasn't made (and likely never will make) Admiral. But there are some Starfleet officers who will do whatever it takes to quickly advance through the ranks so they can direct things from behind a desk, and those who prefer to be "out there" for as long as they can. I'm sure Picard took much longer to reach Admiral than is the norm for that reason--he liked the exploration aspects and being in the thick of things. At first I found it kind of shocking that Janeway made Admiral before Picard, but then again, she led her ship and crew through an experience no other Starfleet vessel*** could really compare with.
***except maybe the Discovery
cheers,
Gabe
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In some respects it seems almost criminal that Riker still hasn't made (and likely never will make) Admiral. But there are some Starfleet officers who will do whatever it takes to quickly advance through the ranks so they can direct things from behind a desk, and those who prefer to be "out there" for as long as they can. I'm sure Picard took much longer to reach Admiral than is the norm for that reason--he liked the exploration aspects and being in the thick of things. At first I found it kind of shocking that Janeway made Admiral before Picard, but then again, she led her ship and crew through an experience no other Starfleet vessel*** could really compare with.
***except maybe the Discovery
cheers,
Gabe
Janeway always came across as one of those Officers who were aiming for Admiral. She seems to have spent most of her career in Starfleet's Scientific and Security Sections, and not anywhere near the Final Frontier. Her actual command experience appears to have been very limited prior to ending up in the Delta Quadrant, which may well be why she came across as very by the book.
Its not impossible to suggest that Voyager was very much a Ticket Punching Command on her way to the Admiralty. Its initial mission fitted in well with her security, and probably intelligence, experience, and a new experimental ship would be suited to someone who was used to scientific work.
(Janeway appearing more than a bit out of her depth was likely because she was)
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In some respects it seems almost criminal that Riker still hasn't made (and likely never will make) Admiral.
I'm still getting used to the idea that Geordi outranks Riker. As for Picard, I'm surprised that he didn't follow Kirk's advice. "Don't let them promote you."
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(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/343758774_654633969832963_8055057756764652572_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=0NfWps0oB6UAX_o1FtL&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AfCgjWilgxXpRpQVIqA5aUXeSn5zm_NngKLeXoVwoesuOQ&oe=6454D0E2)
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I'm still getting used to the idea that Geordi outranks Riker. As for Picard, I'm surprised that he didn't follow Kirk's advice. "Don't let them promote you."
My impression he wanted o-u-t near the end, feeling his age and getting depressed. He even told Jack he gone back to France waiting to die. I think he became Admiral briefly before he retired when he was trying organize rescue mission for the Romulans after the Supernova thing.
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My impression he wanted o-u-t near the end, feeling his age and getting depressed. He even told Jack he gone back to France waiting to die. I think he became Admiral briefly before he retired when he was trying organize rescue mission for the Romulans after the Supernova thing.
Picard was promoted to Admiral sometime in 2381, to give him the authority to command the rescue mission to evacuate Romulus. This was stated in the Picard series 1 press kit and a tie-in novel, and was confirmed on-screen in Lower Decks, where he's referred to as Admiral Picard in the series 3 finale. The rogue synths attack Mars in 2385, destroying the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards and setting the planet's atmosphere alight. Picard resigns in disgust in the aftermath of this attack, as Starfleet was unwilling to make any further attempt to help the Romulans. Spock and Nero's failed attempt to prevent the supernova from consuming Romulus would take place 2 years later, creating the Kelvin timeline.
Picard's line about retreating to his chateau and waiting to die is absolutely him getting depressed, him being told to get in line or leave was probably a massive blow to his ego and one of the times that he argued with high command and didn't win (or was in a position to do what he wanted anyway). He was insulated from the politics of the Federation that Admiral Clancy lectured him on in series 1 and he had the comfort to complain that Starfleet wasn't Starfleet any more, and just get older and grumpier and write his books.
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Damn. We have to live in a timeline where we gotta face the possibility that Kirk was right? Is it too late to like the Kelvinverse?
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Amusingly, in the Litverse Picard is offered an Admiralcy after the Destiny Trilogy, and he turns it down because a wise man told him to stay in the Captain's chair as long as possible. When one of the Admirals asks who said that and Picard replies "Jim Kirk", the Admiral instantly understands.
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Picard was promoted to Admiral sometime in 2381, to give him the authority to command the rescue mission to evacuate Romulus.
Meanwhile, Sisko, as a mere captain, commanded a 600 ship Federation fleet to reclaim Deep Space Nine, as well as several multi-national task forces after that. Sisko should have been a Grand Moff by the time that series ended.
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Meanwhile, Sisko, as a mere captain, commanded a 600 ship Federation fleet to reclaim Deep Space Nine, as well as several multi-national task forces after that. Sisko should have been a Grand Moff by the time that series ended.
Sisko didn't need a piece of jewellery to signify command, he was enough himself.
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Sisko didn't need a piece of jewellery to signify command, he was enough himself.
Because he was the man!
Also, writers weren't that sharp when it came to military jabber in Star Fleet. I got the impression due to Gene Roddenberry's dim view on military anything. Lead to writers feeling "Your a leader, you don't need rank. Admirals were essentially, paper work pusher. Why hell would you want be admiral?"
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I'm still getting used to the idea that Geordi outranks Riker. As for Picard, I'm surprised that he didn't follow Kirk's advice. "Don't let them promote you."
I think he did, but it was a case of following the spirit of the advice, over the letter of the advice.
Let's like and what Kirk's advice actually was.
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do *anything* that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
Now, context time, Jim Kirk was he was promoted to admiral was MISERABLE with the assignment. As an admiral Kirk was chief of Starfleet operations. which was the office over seeing over all operational assignments of ships. Important post, but it was very much a routine desk job. Kirk's job was to decide which ships got the 5 year missions, which ships got routine cargo transfer duties etc. important eneugh but not really the type of job where you feel like you're making a differance everyday.
Picard meanwhile accepted a promotion so he could make a HUGE differance
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Because he was the man!
They don't use money in the Federation, but if they did Sisko's wallet would say BAD MOTHER ******
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I finally finished Picard S3, and its probably the best Trek I've seen in a long time (though the bar was low due to the awful shows like STD and recent slate of Trek movies). Midnight's Edge was right when he stated that most of the showrunners stepped back and allowed Terry Matalas free reign in this final season, so it seems the actual problem stemmed from Kurtzman and the others. :thumbsup:
I saw the plot twist coming from a mile away the moment they revealed Jack Crusher's dreams, but the main storyline was still epic enough to keep me watching. Lots of fan service, but thankfully they didnt overdo it. The final battle felt like a rip-off of Return of the Jedi too lol. ;D
Why would Starfleet place all their ships in one place just for a holiday parade? Even at peacetime, a military would never do that- there would still be ships watching the borders just in case.
Was Shelby killed? I admit I was skipping through the mushy scenes at the end so I might have missed something. And where was Janeway in all this? And how did Beverly Crusher become so adept at handling weapons systems? She's a doctor, not a bridge officer.
And what happened to Raffi's teammates like that Vulcan Jedi and the Hispanic Han Solo? I skipped season 2, but there wasnt any explanation as to why they werent around, even though she had the same ship as before.
Also, Jack Crusher became an ensign exactly one year after joining the academy? And Raffi made it to commander, despite barely having any starship experience?
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Was Shelby killed? I admit I was skipping through the mushy scenes at the end so I might have missed something. And where was Janeway in all this? And how did Beverly Crusher become so adept at handling weapons systems? She's a doctor, not a bridge officer.
We didn't see any resolution re Shelby but per the show runner she was not killed.
Apparently they wanted Janeway but Terry was told they couldn't afford her (he wanted a BUNCH of classic chars he got tuvok)
as for how crusher got so adapt at weapons, she said she'd been through a lot, clearly a story there for another time
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Oh and what happened to Wesley Crusher? I might have misheard this, but did Beverly say that he died? I didnt watch season 2 so I'm not up to date on it.
And those phasers too... how come nobody set their phasers on stun when they tried to retake the bridge? Also, they don't seem as effective as before. During TOS/TNG one phaser blast was enough to kill almost anything but the antagonist was shot multiple times and she just slid away in her jelly form as if nothing happened.
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Oh and what happened to Wesley Crusher? I might have misheard this, but did Beverly say that he died? I didnt watch season 2 so I'm not up to date on it.
My impression was he shows up 2nd season Picard revealing what he doing now. In episode he convinces Kore Soong (Adam Soong's clone daughter) to join his group, the Travels, who manages timelines afar. So essentially, after the Rikers wedding, in 2379. After that he went poof, from sounds of it Beverly Crusher hadn't had any contact since then. So as far she knows, he gone for good. Thus why he told Picard, she lost Wesley but she be damned to loose Jack.
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We didn't see any resolution re Shelby but per the show runner she was not killed.
Apparently they wanted Janeway but Terry was told they couldn't afford her (he wanted a BUNCH of classic chars he got tuvok)
as for how crusher got so adapt at weapons, she said she'd been through a lot, clearly a story there for another time
Im pretty sure Shelby was killed...she took 2 phaser shots on the screen and her ship was taken over, unless she had some major plot armor, I would say she is quite dead.
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Was Shelby killed? I admit I was skipping through the mushy scenes at the end so I might have missed something.
She's dead and if the creator said otherwise, they're mollifying fans who rightfully called out the sloppy practice of bringing back old characters and then killing them. We saw her take two at close range in chest by proto-borg programmed to kill. Maybe Candice Liao could have survived that.
I mean, those proto-borg were hella unsmart. Every moment of the scene when they retook Titan's bridge was ridiculous.
And how did Beverly Crusher become so adept at handling weapons systems? She's a doctor, not a bridge officer.
...
Also, Jack Crusher became an ensign exactly one year after joining the academy? And Raffi made it to commander, despite barely having any starship experience?
I don't even like this season, but they establish early on this was Beverly Crusher after 20 years of living off the grid. She wasted a room of badguys in the opening scene of the season, including a coup d'etat on a downed foe. When Picard came through later, he said Beverly couldn't have done that, which tells us she's changed from the person he knew. Jack Crusher II refers back to this when Picard is talking to him for the first time.
Beverly and Jack spent 20 years doing scummy and scammy things to afford doing medicine where Starfleet and the Federation weren't. That required tactical engagements, running blockades, smuggling, stealing, working without universal translators, and a whole lot of other bullshit. Beverly is a badass now and Jack grew up doing badass stuff on the frontier.
The question is, if Beverly was so obsessively protective of Jack, why did she raise him in that environment? Why does Jack have a criminal record when she doesn't? Why didn't they go back onto the grid whenever Jack was old enough? Why didn't she check him for irumodic syndrome when he had symptoms of irumodic syndrome as a child, a condition his father had a genetic predisposition for and which he had seen he had in the future? If staying on the fringes was so important she stayed gone after her son was an adult and Picard was no longer important enough that being his son was dangerous--if Jack was plagued with always feeling alone because he was raised as the only child of an overprotective mercenary doctor in the worst parts of space, then why the ****** did she come back when all was said and done? Was it because after being de facto rejected by Picard in Ten Forward (still a dumbass name for that ****** bar), they entered into a dangerous and long-running codependent relationship that only ended after the series? That's believable but yikes.
Also--and I don't know if I have to mention this--she was a qualified bridge officer as shown several times in Star Trek: The Next Generation, especially in the finale that took place 20 years in the future where she captained her own ship.
Anyway, Jack II did have a lot of what you describe as "starship experience." We talk about it quite a bit when he's smuggling and bribing with the Fenris Rangers, when Picard is confronting him with his crimes and Jack II explains that it was all to keep the codependent family medical mercenary company solvent, and Jack II literally says he's multilingual and has a ton of tactical experience.
Seven of Nine got the same treatment. She spent 4 years on a starship and then several years as a vigilante before getting fast-tracked into an Executive Officer billet and three pips between seasons two and three, a span of--if I'm not mistaken--a few months*.
Raffi is a career Starfleet officer (except for that decade she spent doing space marijuana at Vazquez Rocks). She did (presumably) go to the Academy for four years and probably had junior officer assignments. Despite doing field work and intelligence analysis work, she's a lieutenant commander with corresponding experience. In season 2, she was Chief of Operations for the Excelsior.
*I might as well do this now. Season 2 took place in 2401. Season 3 took place in April of 2401. So there were only a few months maximum between those two seasons which is an insane timeline, but we're apparently making Star Trek seasons with the same rigor, coordination, and thorough & immediate retconning of Star Wars films.
Even if Raffi only spent two weeks as a senior officer on the Excelsior before being thrown back into undercover work she's also got that I-can't-believe-it's-a-one-year-timejump of service and an XO billet which lets her work under a more experienced captain** to get her sea legs. That all seems reasonable. A Starfleet whose senior officers were all less resilient than Candice Liao probably would have demanded it even if it wasn't reasonable.
**Actual captain may not actually have more experience.
Oh and what happened to Wesley Crusher? I might have misheard this, but did Beverly say that he died?
She referred to losing him, not necessarily him dying. I guess the postal service from All of Space/Time to Random Freelance Medical Ship kept losing those letters he sent.
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Im pretty sure Shelby was killed...she took 2 phaser shots on the screen and her ship was taken over, unless she had some major plot armor, I would say she is quite dead.
The phasers could have been set to stun. Not likely, but would have been smart. Stun, capture, assimilate to gain further secrets of the Federation/StarFleet.
Ruger
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From what I could see of Shelby getting shot I saw HOLES getting shot in her so I'm thinking that didn't bode well. Also, it's not like the borg zombies were looking to take any prisoners.
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From what I could see of Shelby getting shot I saw HOLES getting shot in her so I'm thinking that didn't bode well. Also, it's not like the borg zombies were looking to take any prisoners.
My impression was they shot her in the shoulders.
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LOL this reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer gets a job at the Kiwk-E-Mart, and Apu suggests that if he gets shot by a robber to take it in the shoulder. ;D
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So, I actually watched an episode of the recent Nancy Drew show co-helmed by Noga Landau, who is supposed to be the showrunner for the Starfleet Academy show.
All I can say is that if the Academy show is anything like that, it could well be the shortest-lived Trek series in history.
Cheers,
Gabe
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So, I actually watched an episode of the recent Nancy Drew show co-helmed by Noga Landau, who is supposed to be the showrunner for the Starfleet Academy.
All I can say is that if the Academy show is anything like that, it could well be the shortest-lived Trek series in history.
Cheers,
Gabe
it really is right now the "trek series no one wants"
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it really is right now the "trek series no one wants"
and yet, there is the possibility that it might become good.
Even with doubts about the showrunner, even with an aversion to the parent media, even with questions about the setting, there's still the possibility that it could, somehow, end up good.
I remember the discussions in fandom denigrating the very IDEA of Deep Space Nine. "Star trek but they're going nowhere! Heresy!!!"
yet, it turned out fantastic.
So maybe just throttle back on the prejudgment until you've seen what they actually deliver, and if it's bad, THEN start with the carping, neh?
I admit, I was not and am not a fan of Discovery. Some of the characters (Jett Reno) are great, and we got Pike out of it...but ya gotta remember something about Trek Fans. "We are united only loosely", and mostly in our power to complain about one another's favorite shows.
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My hope is that TPTB of Star Trek will look at the success of Season 3 of Picard and do more of that.
I don't think they will do that. I think Star Trek is running into the too much, too fast, and quality lowers. For example, Marvel, and Star Wars.
The Starfleet Acadamy show will be in the 32nd century and nobody really cares about that, it's the Star Trek answer to Star Wars Acolyte...at least to me.
I just hope that the Section 31 show don't work, it seems to be the most opposite in the Star Trek message to me, they were the "bad guys" in DS9, and the big bad in Disco. A show of the super secret shady organization that has a terrible person in called Emperor Georgiou as the main character is a bad idea. No disrespect to Michelle Yeoh who is a incredible actor but probably has a higher price tag than Season 1 of Disco.
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Random injection of Trek this week:
I went on vacation to Italy with the wife, and had to kill about 10 hours (San Francisco to Heathrow) both ways. Watched some good old movies (Godfather, Indian Jones & Last Crusade) and 6 episodes of Star Trek shows. As someone who loved TOS and TNG, I was excited to see the paramount options on the in flight entertainment. What struck me was the difference in quality.
Episodes S1E1-S1E3 of Strange New Worlds: Loved it. Great vibe, fun feeling. Decent writing, enjoyable cast. Episodic vibes as well, 8/10. Made me consider paying for Paramount+, even when I'm all tapped out on monthly expenses these days.
Episodes S4E1-S4E3 of Discovery: Yuck. I must be a curmudgeonly old fart, because I've never felt so much like a show wanted me to feel a certain way about moral decisions. It felt like the writers didn't give a crap if it was fun, interesting, or enjoyable. Just slightly preachy and everybody was hugging all the damn time. 1/10 (for being set in some kind of Trek Universe).
How are both of these current Trek projects? So weird......
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Because those are made for different audiences and you're not part of Discovery's audience? And imo not everything needs to be for me or you so it'a dfine to make shpws for different audiences instead of just to one certain audience. Just my 2 cents on matter.
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I think the Section 31 movie will be best Trek since the highlights of DS9.
And Star Trek: Academy will have Tilly, worth it all alone.
And it'll be far cry from the tripple whammy of gutpain that was VOY + ENT + TNG-movies. Picard has finally redeed that era character from Nemesis and Insurrection. Thank you, Universal.
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Didn't see this til today, but live action Boimler and Beckett.
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Didn't see this til today, but live action Boimler and Beckett.
That's slightly going be off the rails. Their like from the distant future. The way they act.....their bit least Trek characters ever. Its fun, I just think it's beyond weird to me there crossing over at all
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Didn't see this til today, but live action Boimler and Beckett.
Is this a leak or was it in the trailer? We knew about this crossover for a bit.
I'm glad the two best new Treks (and the 4th and 6th best Treks overall) are rubbing elbows. SNW shows promise and knows how to have fun with it while LWD is having fun and putting its heart in the right place.
Looking forward to it as a nice diversion in SNW's 2nd season.
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That's slightly going be off the rails. Their like from the distant future. The way they act.....their bit least Trek characters ever. Its fun, I just think it's beyond weird to me there crossing over at all
I imagine they'll be a little more restrined in their life action incarnations.
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I'm just wondering what the Watsonian excuse for their presence is going to be.
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Seems to be a leak, the picture was pulled not long after It was posted
Is this a leak or was it in the trailer? We knew about this crossover for a bit.
I'm glad the two best new Treks (and the 4th and 6th best Treks overall) are rubbing elbows. SNW shows promise and knows how to have fun with it while LWD is having fun and putting its heart in the right place.
Looking forward to it as a nice diversion in SNW's 2nd season.
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I'm just wondering what the Watsonian excuse for their presence is going to be.
The usual suspects: Time travel, holodeck, or godlike alien shenanigans.
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The usual suspects: Time travel, holodeck, or godlike alien shenanigans.
(https://media.tenor.com/dr85JiIMU78AAAAC/uh-we-got-sci-fi-stuff-happening-over-here-ensign-mariner.gif)
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ya know, I absolutely hope that they do the "opening stinger" in animation and only have it shift to live action when Bhoims and Mariner go back in time
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ya know, I absolutely hope that they do the "opening stinger" in animation and only have it shift to live action when Bhoims and Mariner go back in time
I thought the crossover was going to be Pike in Lower Decks, not the other way around.
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I'm hoping that Pike and some of the Enterprise crew will go forward to the future, and will appear in TAS style animated form, with all the LD regulars in their usual form ;D
Cheers,
Gabe
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The episode starts animated then shifts to live action.
https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-crossovers/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=news_tab
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The usual suspects: Time travel, holodeck, or godlike alien shenanigans.
I think its been a while i think since we saw godlike alien shenanigans happen on Star Trek with exception of the Q.
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The villains of Picard's first two seasons were in the 'godlike alien' category. Granted, those shenanigans were more cruel and tragic than fun and cheeky.
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I'm gonna pistol-whip the next person who says shenanigans.
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Hey Wrangler, what's the name of that restaurant you like, the one with all the stuff on the walls?
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I'm gonna pistol-whip the next person who says shenanigans.
Do you remember the one good House of Pain song called "shamrock and ........"
Just wondering
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkX-i0QEmzw
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Hey Wrangler, what's the name of that restaurant you like, the one with all the stuff on the walls?
Was it at the attached Starbase?
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Hey Wrangler, what's the name of that restaurant you like, the one with all the stuff on the walls?
Ahh....I think it was The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
(https://live.staticflickr.com/2806/11329702693_f04914ea2d.jpg)
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OK, new trailer for SNW season 2, and this time we get official pics of Mariner and Boimler in their live-action forms:
https://trekmovie.com/2023/05/24/watch-new-trailer-for-star-trek-strange-new-worlds-season-2-includes-mariner-and-boimler-in-live-action/ (https://trekmovie.com/2023/05/24/watch-new-trailer-for-star-trek-strange-new-worlds-season-2-includes-mariner-and-boimler-in-live-action/)
WHERE'S THE PURPLE HAIR?!?!?
EDIT: Wait, it's there. But only clear in close-ups.
cheers,
Gabe
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Its really difficult to see Boimlers hair color, yeah.
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Not so concerned about the hair color, but that characterization there at the end was spot on.
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I always thought the hair color thing was just an animation decision, not an attempt to depict his real hair color. But I guess it is...
Trailer looks great. Looking forward to the new season. Also very cinematic, like a lot of streaming shows these days.
Damon.
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Not so concerned about the hair color, but that characterization there at the end was spot on.
It's the same actor.
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Same actors, for both of them :) Looking forward to it!
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I always thought the hair color thing was just an animation decision, not an attempt to depict his real hair color. But I guess it is...
They've mentioned it before in the series, but it makes sense that in "real life" the purple is an understated element that the animation turns into a distinctive character quality. The same way Shaxs' shoulders probably aren't 4 feet across.
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Doesn't he dye his hair in the show? Pretty sure his logs in series 3, episode 1 mentions it.
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Doesn't he dye his hair in the show? Pretty sure his logs in series 3, episode 1 mentions it.
just watched that episode, yes he does
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Paradox Interactive just dropped this and I absolutely must share it! (https://youtu.be/A3cM3Rsh7lQ) :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
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Birth of the Federation Redux?
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Birth of the Federation Redux?
It's looking that way. Being published by Paradox, and developed by Nimble Giant (current holders of the Master of Orion IP). Official Press release. (https://www.paradoxinteractive.com/media/press-releases/press-release/paradox-interactive-and-paramount-consumer-products-announce-a-new-grand-strategy-game-star-trek-infinite)
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Paramount Plus put out Star Trek Strange New Worlds episodes on Youtube.
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It's looking that way. Being published by Paradox, and developed by Nimble Giant (current holders of the Master of Orion IP). Official Press release. (https://www.paradoxinteractive.com/media/press-releases/press-release/paradox-interactive-and-paramount-consumer-products-announce-a-new-grand-strategy-game-star-trek-infinite)
Paradox being one of the big names in grand strategy games, it ought to be good. to be honest, that map interface at the end looks a lot like the Stellaris one, and i wouldn't be surprised if they aren't recycling some of the experience and code they've developed making that game. (also there is a popular fan mod 'total conversion' for stellaris called "star Trek New Horizons" that is literally this sort of game, but on a grander scale.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8husm_XCXHA (this video is old but the mod has only gotten more polished)
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Not so concerned about the hair color, but that characterization there at the end was spot on.
"You also... live... and..."
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Man, you take one 16-hour nap...
I hope it's like Stellaris. I really liked that game before they started shoving every feature imaginable into it. I'm sure it keeps die-hard players engaged but I just couldn't care about all those dials and knobs after a while.
That said, Paradox knows what they're doing so I'm optimistic.
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Man, you take one 16-hour nap...
I hope it's like Stellaris. I really liked that game before they started shoving every feature imaginable into it. I'm sure it keeps die-hard players engaged but I just couldn't care about all those dials and knobs after a while.
That said, Paradox knows what they're doing so I'm optimistic.
I'm just optimistic that, AFAIK, it's the first Star Trek 4x since BOTF.
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Just wanting to point out, that Infinite isn't being made by Paradox, PI is just publishing it. Nimble Giant is the studio making it (the studio that made the last Master of Orion game if I'm not mistaken).
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Having my name in the credits for BotF as a tester means I'd love to see another official game in the same style. I'll have to keep an eye on this.
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Starfleet Fleet Command is on mobile game platforms which is essentially light weight version of this game. I haven't looked yet but, who's actually doing the programming for the software of the game. Paradox is just a publisher they don't actually make in-house their own games. Hair brain schemes is part of them.
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Starfleet Command is on mobile game platforms which is essentially light weight version of this game.
Star Trek: Fleet Command.
Starfleet Command is a very different game, and I'd lose my mind if it was on mobile.
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Starfleet Command is the game that was built around Star Fleet Battles gameplay wasn't it?
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Starfleet Command is the game that was built around Star Fleet Battles gameplay wasn't it?
I misspoke I meant Star Trek fleet command, there's been a couple of versions. The one in particular I really liked was done a while ago in 1999. I'm not sure if you can get that game to work now, it was one of those weird memory adjustments you had to do with DOS. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Starfleet_Command)
I think there was Star Fleet Battles like game that was like Starfleet battles that someone had made as an indie game on the Tandy 1000. I remember playing it but I didn't realize it was Starfleet battles but it it was behaving like it. ;D
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You can get it on GoG. As well as 3. I keep hoping they'll get 2: Orion Pirates. That one was actually my favorite. 3 can be good if you're comfortable editing some files yourself and has an interesting customization system.
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SNW's series premiere low-key said that you shouldn't worry so much about visual differences between the shows, and I am so here for it.
Episode was pretty enjoyable on its own merits too.
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The super-soldier drink they did, was kinda annoying in the show. It was a ok of a episode.
I give it a 7 out of 10, should be higher for a season opener but ok.
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The super-soldier drink they did, was kinda annoying in the show. It was a ok of a episode.
I give it a 7 out of 10, should be higher for a season opener but ok.
the super soldier juice is something that I'm assuming is going to be part of the ongoing season arc
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Solid episode. Always good to see Carol Kane. Can't believe she's 70.
All of Spock's character development hangs under the Traumatic Event of Damocles that's going to reset his character at the end of the series, but I still enjoy the heck out of it. Stories are about the journey regardless of how they end.
That it packs a lot of quiet pathos into his TOS relationships with Chapel and T'Pring is just a bonus. Looking forward to the season.
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So, recently rewatched TMP (local channel had a TOS movie marathon), and something weird came up I hadn't ever thought about before. When Kirk took over command of the Enterprise, he demoted Decker down to a Commander. Why though? As an admiral he has the authority to take command of any ship he wishes. (Granted, there is a certain protocol and etiquette to it; see Pricard/Shaw as how not to do it.) All he had to do was come aboard, tell Decker that he would be personally overseeing this mission because of its critical nature and let Decker run the ship while he focuses on the mission.
The lines in question:
"KIRK: "I'm taking over the center seat Will."
DECKER: "You're what?"
KIRK: I'm replacing you as captain of the Enterprise. You'll stay on as Executive Officer. Temporary grade reduction to Commander."
Demoting him just seems unnecessarily aggressive on Kirk's part. Especially as he seems to have had a mentor type relationship with Decker before this.
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Decker seem to come off as a hot head, frankly he seem more less experienced the way he was portrayed in the movie.
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The super-soldier drink they did, was kinda annoying in the show. It was a ok of a episode.
I give it a 7 out of 10, should be higher for a season opener but ok.
Sorry but that whole sequence with M'Benga and Chapel operating as stimpacked commandos just didn't work for me. The showrunners obviously want to hint at a shared backstory for the pair, probably as part of some special ops unit** during the Klingon War that tested(?) this serum that would give Federation personnel (who weren't Vulcans, anyway) a fighting chance in hand-to-hand combat against enraged Klingons, but having a pair of medical personnel take this route kind of stretches belief, particularly in terms of the presumed oaths they swore concerning doing harm. (You would expect this kind of thing to be more La'an's bailiwick, but she was conveniently occupied with other things...) Also, the fact that there was nary a disruptor pistol or even a d'k tahg in sight among the Klingons they beat up is just...I don't know...
**the fact they knew how to modify the kitbashed false-flag ship's transponder to send covert signals that would be detected by the Enterprise also suggests they received training that went well beyond standard Starfleet medical training
And where were the humans involved with this "Broken Circle"? Please don't tell me April is one of them...if they decide to make him--the first captain of the Enterprise--another Badmiral, I *WILL* boycott the rest of the series. I haven't watched a single one of Tom Cruise's ego trips the Mission Impossible movies after the first one, where they decided to make Jim Phelps a traitor and a villain, and I would do the same here even if it's Star Trek.
(It does, however, anticipate the three-way conspiracy that came to light in ST VI: TUC)
cheers,
Gabe
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So, recently rewatched TMP (local channel had a TOS movie marathon), and something weird came up I hadn't ever thought about before. When Kirk took over command of the Enterprise, he demoted Decker down to a Commander. Why though? As an admiral he has the authority to take command of any ship he wishes. (Granted, there is a certain protocol and etiquette to it; see Pricard/Shaw as how not to do it.) All he had to do was come aboard, tell Decker that he would be personally overseeing this mission because of its critical nature and let Decker run the ship while he focuses on the mission.
The lines in question:
"KIRK: "I'm taking over the center seat Will."
DECKER: "You're what?"
KIRK: I'm replacing you as captain of the Enterprise. You'll stay on as Executive Officer. Temporary grade reduction to Commander."
Demoting him just seems unnecessarily aggressive on Kirk's part. Especially as he seems to have had a mentor type relationship with Decker before this.
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There can only be ONE captain on a ship. Kirk isn't just taking overall mission command, he is taking over command of the SHIP. Decker and Kirk respectively retain their grade (i.e. equivalents to E-6 and E-7 or -8 in modern US Military talk), but if Kirk is going to be captain, then Decker cannot also be captain. It would confuse the chain of command.
Damon.
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I don't know about 'do no harm.' These guys are from the era of Leonard H. McCoy who was quick to do some harm.
Even TNG-era Beverly Crusher roundhouse-kicked a sponge man and merc'ed a ship full of free Borg. Starfleet doctors recognize that the grace of Apollo knows no bounds, but mercy has some practical limitations.
As far as Decker goes, it may have been regulations at the time or Kirk being a dick. The takeaway is that Decker, despite his qualifications, is being set back because Kirk wants to relive his glory days.
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Kirk did call Decker Captain when he called them in MIA.
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Strange New Worlds Ad Astra Per Aspera episode 2 season 2 one of the best episodes of star trek period
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I felt it copped out a bit at the end, but they were limited in how much they could do at the end and still have the genetic modification laws in place by the time of DS9. But there were some very powerful scenes along the way - Admiral April and Una's testimonies were very well-written and acted especially, and I really liked how they dealt with La'an's feelings of guilt over how she reacted when she discovered Una was Illyrian last year.
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I felt it copped out a bit at the end, but they were limited in how much they could do at the end and still have the genetic modification laws in place by the time of DS9. But there were some very powerful scenes along the way - Admiral April and Una's testimonies were very well-written and acted especially, and I really liked how they dealt with La'an's feelings of guilt over how she reacted when she discovered Una was Illyrian last year.
It can be argued, successfully in fact, that the events of First Contact (which both chronologically as well as by Star Date) could Justify the chance that the laws could have been successfully legislated earlier than what has yet to occur if changes to the previous timelines had not occurred.
AS for the episode itself, utterly awesome sauce. Story Telling At. It's. Finest.
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So I watched the second episode of Strange New Worlds and all I can't call it a cop out. Star Trek has a long history of addressing current events in their stories and asylum issues is about as current events as it gets these days.
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Prodigy has been cancelled and will be removed from Paramount Plus "soon". Series 2 will complete production and be shown "somewhere", which presumably means Nickelodeon.
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Shame really but it is what it is.
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While it was enjoyable it just did not seem to have the legs to be a long running show so I'm okay with it ending on a high note rather than getting milked.
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Welp. Looks like P+ won't be doing a second season of Prodigy after all (maybe selling it to someone else). :-\
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Welp. Looks like P+ won't be doing a second season of Prodigy after all (maybe selling it to someone else). :-\
How could they be selling it? They own the rights to Star Trek.
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How could they be selling it? They own the rights to Star Trek.
They're removing it from Paramount Plus and looking to sell the streaming rights for the second season to someone else.
(Apparently they are looking to drastically tighten the belt on what they are offering.)
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yeah, Paramount and Nickelodeon is all part of CBS-Viacom, and all this does is remove the show from the streaming service. (paramount+ is the main streaming service for all of the various CBS owned companies)
i've seen a lot of people thinking that it somehow the ownership is changing, i think people forget how extensive the CBS-Viacom holdings are, and forget that Paramount+ is not only hosting Paramount specific stuff.
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Is this move actually going help them? Paramount/CBS itself I mean. They still have full blown writers strike going on, now their going have less product to host.
Lord, I wonder how long it will be until Star Trek has next season of their surviving lineup. I know stuff is coming out now, but later...maybe while.
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Is this move actually going help them? Paramount/CBS itself I mean. They still have full blown writers strike going on, now their going have less product to host.
Lord, I wonder how long it will be until Star Trek has next season of their surviving lineup. I know stuff is coming out now, but later...maybe while.
Im upset that Prodigy has beem cancelled, not my favorite Star Trek, but that seems to be a low bar right now.
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Strange New Worlds Ad Astra Per Aspera episode 2 season 2 one of the best episodes of star trek period
My expectations weren't that high, but it was really good.
I also have to commend them for their callouts to Star Trek history. A humdinger 2nd season court episode during a writer's strike? That's a modestly deep cut.
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My expectations weren't that high, but it was really good.
I also have to commend them for their callouts to Star Trek history. A humdinger 2nd season court episode during a writer's strike? That's a modestly deep cut.
Production, shooting, post production times mean all of Season 2 was written well before the writer's strike.
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Yeah series 3 of SNW is in production right now and has been impacted by the strike, but 2 was filming last year.
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Production, shooting, post production times mean all of Season 2 was written well before the writer's strike.
(https://i.imgur.com/utzTCyoh.jpg)
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In lieu of any proper response to this week's episode of Strange New Worlds, I'm just gonna drink a little and then yell at some shit.
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In lieu of any proper response to this week's episode of Strange New Worlds, I'm just gonna drink a little and then yell at some shit.
But in a good way, I hope? I mean, that was an amazing episode.
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Yeah, I really enjoyed this week's episode too.
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But in a good way, I hope? I mean, that was an amazing episode.
In a very good way. Just a heck of a wringer to put a character through.
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In a very good way. Just a heck of a wringer to put a character through.
I agree great episode and really tough on character but also really cool story and the fact it was all her, really well pulled off, Kirk really worked too I really liked both performances
I liked the nod to the fact the war hasn't kicked off yet, the temporal war was a nice call back to Enterprise
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It was a pretty good time travel episode where nothing happened. Like Yesterdays Enterprise in TNG.
I didn't like La'an at first, the actor did great in the episode and glad she got to act like a human with emotions, she may not be my favorite character, but she isn't my least favorite character.
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In a very good way. Just a heck of a wringer to put a character through.
I've seen quipped that La'an is becoming the O'Brien of SNW, in that she gets all the Emotional Damage, and lsrgelofor the same reason: Christiana Chong has the acting chops to pull it off.
It was a pretty good time travel episode where nothing happened. Like Yesterdays Enterprise in TNG.
I didn't like La'an at first, the actor did great in the episode and glad she got to act like a human with emotions, she may not be my favorite character, but she isn't my least favorite character.
I'll see your "Yesterday's Enterprise" and raise you a "City on the Edge of Forever". This was easily up there in terms of story quality, the writing and acting was brilliant, and the ending was equally heart wrenching.
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out of curiosity, as someone who doesn't have paramount+ and thus won't get to watch it any time soon (hoping they'll do like with season 1 and put the whole thing up on YT later)
how was the time travel achieved? mostly trying to figure out how it matches up to the TOS time travel episodes.
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out of curiosity, as someone who doesn't have paramount+ and thus won't get to watch it any time soon (hoping they'll do like with season 1 and put the whole thing up on YT later)
how was the time travel achieved? mostly trying to figure out how it matches up to the TOS time travel episodes.
A grievously wounded member of the Federation Department of Temporal Investigation appeared on the Enterprise, handed La'an his time travel device as he died and the timeline shifted around her. In the altered timeline the Federation didn't exist and she was on the United Earth ship Enterprise commanded by James T Kirk. While she and Kirk discussed the situation he went to grab the device from her and it transported them both back to contemporary Earth. It's implied but never outright stated that this was part of the Temporal Wars/Cold War.
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There is a fan theory stating the Daystrom Kirk corpse in Picard might actually be the alternate dimension one and not the one Soren killed.
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There is a fan theory stating the Daystrom Kirk corpse in Picard might actually be the alternate dimension one and not the one Soren killed.
So are we talking about...
1) Pine-Kirk?
2) Wesley-Kirk?
3) Elvis-Cawley-Kirk?
4) Gross-Kirk?
5) Vic-Kirk?
I mean, there is some cannon and Non-Cannon choices >:D
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A grievously wounded member of the Federation Department of Temporal Investigation appeared on the Enterprise, handed La'an his time travel device as he died and the timeline shifted around her. In the altered timeline the Federation didn't exist and she was on the United Earth ship Enterprise commanded by James T Kirk. While she and Kirk discussed the situation he went to grab the device from her and it transported them both back to contemporary Earth. It's implied but never outright stated that this was part of the Temporal Wars/Cold War.
so no issue with TOS kirk having fore knowledge of time travel then. that is good to know. though the DTI having time travel tech is.. odd, given that it is implied in DS9 they they didn't (and there was a series of novel-continuity books which followed said interpretation). but i guess the DTI had to evolve into the 29th century Temporal Integrity Commission seen in VOY at some point, so some post 24th century version of the DTI pulling the time traveling cop routine makes some sense. (and the TIC eventually turned into or was replaced by whatever group Daniels was working for in ENT, which seems to operate on a much less overt and more humane model than the TIC)
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so no issue with TOS kirk having fore knowledge of time travel then. that is good to know. though the DTI having time travel tech is.. odd, given that it is implied in DS9 they they didn't (and there was a series of novel-continuity books which followed said interpretation). but i guess the DTI had to evolve into the 29th century Temporal Integrity Commission seen in VOY at some point, so some post 24th century version of the DTI pulling the time traveling cop routine makes some sense. (and the TIC eventually turned into or was replaced by whatever group Daniels was working for in ENT, which seems to operate on a much less overt and more humane model than the TIC)
I think it was implied that the "timecop" was from the 29th (I don't think said). His device had the same sort of display we saw on the Relativity (VOY) at one point. He looked suited and booted instead of uniformed like the crew of that ship though
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I assume he travelled from the 21st century to the 23rd and was dressed to blend in there. He'd been shot by a handgun before his arrival so presumably that was Sera or one of the other Romulan agents' doing
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There is a fan theory stating the Daystrom Kirk corpse in Picard might actually be the alternate dimension one and not the one Soren killed.
pretty sure it's just the one from Generations, removed from the surface of Veridian III to prevent the pre-warp inhabitants of Veridian IV from discovering evidence of aliens when they start exploring their star system. presumably it was picked up at the same time as the launch complex Soren built was removed, as well as the sun-destroying missile. odds are they are keeping it in storage because he's already got grave marker from when they thought he'd died on the Ent-B, and given he died in an affair that involved a cross-temporal nexus and star-destroying weaponry, publicly revealing his death would require answering way too many questions.
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I'll see your "Yesterday's Enterprise" and raise you a "City on the Edge of Forever". This was easily up there in terms of story quality, the writing and acting was brilliant, and the ending was equally heart wrenching.
Now that you said that, yes it is something way more like "City on the Edge of Forever" same thing were you have to go against what you believe so history don't change for the worse. Its the good moral questions that "Star Trek" used to do, where the right thing to do is the worst thing you could do, later down the road.
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how was the time travel achieved? mostly trying to figure out how it matches up to the TOS time travel episodes.
The same way Q could move a lot of omnipotent energy being stories in-house, the Temporal Cold War lets us do time travel stories whenever we need to without ginning up a reason we can only time travel sometimes (I guess also Klingon Time Crystals).
Which is a bit disappointing. I kicked around a theory that the rarity of old races in Star Trek mixed with the TOS-era tendency to trip over destroyed, advanced, non-spacefaring civilizations indicated most civilizations eventually developed time travel and lost a time war. Except instead of nuclear apocalypse, it's the generation of a timeline where the civilization develops neither spaceflight nor time travel. Chekov being a time war agent also worked into it well, but I could never find a smoking gun to link it all together.
As is, it seems that when a civilization doesn't go to the stars they tend to live until they die in the celestial crib and a lot of species choose to do that. The rest expand until they 'hide' like the Organians or Metrons. Though it doesn't explain the very clean destruction of the Iconians, T'kon, et al. unless they all got Kevin Uxbridged by rogue members of 'hidden' omnipotent species like the Husnock did.
Hell of a galaxy to live in.
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Now that you said that, yes it is something way more like "City on the Edge of Forever" same thing were you have to go against what you believe so history don't change for the worse. Its the good moral questions that "Star Trek" used to do, where the right thing to do is the worst thing you could do, later down the road.
I would say the story was sort of equal parts "City..." the ENT episode "Carpenter Street", with some "Future's End" and "Relativity" from VOY thrown in for spice.
My biggest hangup here, as with PIC season 2, was the execution of the alternate timeline. If the considerably more advanced Romulans began attacking Earth in the **early-mid 21st Century**, occupied it for a time, and eventually destroyed it, then how (what was left of) United Earth ever became advanced enough to build a Constitution-class starship is kind of a mystery--and what they do have should be NOTABLY less sophisticated than in a universe where the Federation formed and technologies are exchanged freely among member worlds. Also, just as La'an doesn't exist in the alternate timeline (because Khan was killed as a child), neither should Spock (as Earth and Vulcan never became allies).
That said, I think Paul Wesley did a much better job as Alternate Kirk Take #2 than in the season 1 finale. Despite the more tragic backstory, he still managed to deliver a more enjoyable, laid-back, and easygoing take on Kirk, although it was more based on the Kelvinverse Kirk than on Shatner's.
And oh yeah, Christina Chong managed to own this episode in a way that Rebecca Romijn didn't quite manage in what was supposed to be her focus episode (she got totally upstaged by the guest star IMO).
cheers,
Gabe
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Sooooooooooo...did this episode retcon Khan and the Eugenic Wars? The Romulan saboteur said that she slowed things down to where Khan was born in the early 21st century instead of the late 20th (she specifically mentioned was supposed to happen in 1992).
So...was everything reset at the end of the episode? Or is Khan now early 21st century because of Romulan interference? Because to me the way it is written this is a major Retcon, since nothing La'an did would undue what the Romulans did before she arrived back in time.
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Sooooooooooo...did this episode retcon Khan and the Eugenic Wars? The Romulan saboteur said that she slowed things down to where Khan was born in the early 21st century instead of the late 20th (she specifically mentioned was supposed to happen in 1992).
So...was everything reset at the end of the episode? Or is Khan now early 21st century because of Romulan interference? Because to me the way it is written this is a major Retcon, since nothing La'an did would undue what the Romulans did before she arrived back in time.
Essentially, yes. However, the shifting forward in time of Khan's origin is not necessarily the doing of the Romulans alone; rather, it's probably best understood as the cumulative effect of various timeline manipulations by different factions involved in the Temporal Cold War. The net effect is to make the Eugenics Wars nearly contemporaneous with (and probably part of) the World War III Pike knows.
And somehow, it's still not totally consistent with the events of PIC S2, where we see Adam Soong in 2024 turning back to his "Project Khan", seemingly first devised in the 1990s but then abandoned; this SNW story seems to take place around the same time, but Khan already exists and is a pre-teen. Either way, a shift of the Eugenics Wars into the first quarter of the 21st Century occurs.
Also, do Romulans normally share the enhanced strength of Vulcans? I was under the impression they didn't, since there have been many examples of humans beating up Romulan guards with relative ease, but Sera seemed to have at least Vulcan-level strength in her physical confrontation with La'an. Was she possibly augmented the way the Suliban were? (though not to the same extent)
cheers,
Gabe
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Essentially, yes. However, the shifting forward in time of Khan's origin is not necessarily the doing of the Romulans alone; rather, it's probably best understood as the cumulative effect of various timeline manipulations by different factions involved in the Temporal Cold War. The net effect is to make the Eugenics Wars nearly contemporaneous with (and probably part of) the World War III Pike knows.
And somehow, it's still not totally consistent with the events of PIC S2, where we see Adam Soong in 2024 turning back to his "Project Khan", seemingly first devised in the 1990s but then abandoned; this SNW story seems to take place around the same time, but Khan already exists and is a pre-teen. Either way, a shift of the Eugenics Wars into the first quarter of the 21st Century occurs.
Also, do Romulans normally share the enhanced strength of Vulcans? I was under the impression they didn't, since there have been many examples of humans beating up Romulan guards with relative ease, but Sera seemed to have at least Vulcan-level strength in her physical confrontation with La'an. Was she possibly augmented the way the Suliban were? (though not to the same extent)
cheers,
Gabe
Honestly...early 21st century should just be steered away from. The timeline is too confusing as it is, what with the Eugenics Wars, the Second Civil War, WW3...it's just a mess they should have stayed away from.
Yeah, I had forgotten about Soong getting that in Picard. That makes it even messier.
I would say that they do...but showing that onscreen has been rather sporadic. And to be fair that isn't something that is mentioned of the Vulcans much either.
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so i just read a summary of "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow". glad that it didn't directly invalidate any TOS stuff, and apparently it helps justify why post-ENT trek looks a bit different than pre-ENT tech.. The temporal cold war has resulted in 'timeline creep' for some events, like the eugenics wars. one thing i noticed mentioned though.. the romulan time agent, apparently from the 23rd or early 24th century going by the ship seen, mentions they created a computer system to calculate the timeline try and determine key points in federation/human history to try and change. this would seem to conflict with the Picard season 1 claim that romulans did not hold with AI's and didn't use advanced computers. which itself contradicted TNG references to romulan cybernetics experts fascinated with Data. i guess CBS has decided to just make the anti-Ai attitudes something specific to the QZaht Vash and those who follow their philosophy?
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Attitudes and prejudices can change over time, sometimes surprisingly rapidly. Romulans avoiding such tech in one given point says absolutely nothing about their attitudes before or after that point in time.
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Attitudes and prejudices can change over time, sometimes surprisingly rapidly. Romulans avoiding such tech in one given point says absolutely nothing about their attitudes before or after that point in time.
The Zaht Vash were a secret cabal within the already-secret Tal Shiar which had worked, possibly before the Romulans even left Vulcan, to prevent the development of synthetic intelligence on the understanding that AI anywhere could force the biological species of the galaxy to experience Mass Effect 3 an apocalyptic synthetic, extradimensional butthole spider.
They were so effective that not even Romulus' worst enemies were able to produce more than one or two. Cyberneticists lived in fear of them and didn't even know who they were. They destroyed their own people to prevent mass adoption of synthetic life into the galaxy at large.
It was a massive conspiracy which affected the course of technological developments across 2 quadrants and while it was, admittedly, brought down by one Romulan refugee, an unmedicated Millenial-in-spirit, a 37-month-old synthetic, and a two-android brain cells etched with the face of one old man who could connect them all...
It's all incredibly stupid, but it's canon and it's not a transfer to the metric system or letting PG-13 films say one swear.
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The last episode seems a lot more related to Voyager's Time Enforcement Agents rather than Enterprise's Temporal Cold War.
Full disclosure I hate the Temporal Cold War with the burning fury of a thousand suns. IMHO it was the stupidest story arc of any Star Trek series and as far as I'm concerned severely damaged that series chances of staying on the air longer.
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The last episode seems a lot more related to Voyager's Time Enforcement Agents rather than Enterprise's Temporal Cold War.
Full disclosure I hate the Temporal Cold War with the burning fury of a thousand suns. IMHO it was the stupidest story arc of any Star Trek series and as far as I'm concerned severely damaged that series chances of staying on the air longer.
why did you spoiler that? It's not like it's an unusual or rare opinion. nor even particularlly controversial. It's pretty common statement that Enterprise got good only after the 2nd season was over, and the numbers and upcoming merger of two networks combined to kill it, and those numbers were largely due to the poor execution of the first two seasons of Enterprise's writing room.
A problem Voyager also suffered from in ITS first two seasons, but unlike Enterprise, Voyager had slack with the executives.
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I watched Voyager for seven years waiting for it to get better. It never did. I mean, it improved somewhat, but it never got half as good as TNG or DS9, and that irritated me. I was not willing to give Enterprise that long. I think I gave it six or seven episodes, decided it was more Voyager, and dropped it. Farscape and Lexx were both on the air at that point. Why would I want to go with safe and boring, when I could have crazy and ridiculous, and with better theme songs?
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why did you spoiler that? It's not like it's an unusual or rare opinion. nor even particularlly controversial. It's pretty common statement that Enterprise got good only after the 2nd season was over, and the numbers and upcoming merger of two networks combined to kill it, and those numbers were largely due to the poor execution of the first two seasons of Enterprise's writing room.
and apparently a lot of the stories they used in season 4 were based on stuff they'd proposed in seasons 1 and 2, but which had gotten shot down by the execs. i get the feeling that the execs didn't really understand that when you make a prequel, you need to do prequel things.
personally i don't mind the temporal cold war stuff.. i just think that it was poorly implemented and over used. the cold war thing make some sense given the sort of antics we see the Temporal Integrity Commission doing in Voyager.. actively working to protect the timeline they are in. it would follow that when you have timetravel tech that easy to use, that other nations would be working to do the same thing or to tweak events in their favor, and that would result in a war of covert actions occurring in the past. i just wish that they'd not used it for so many episodes so often, and left things more vague as to what is going on, at least for the characters. the pilot handled that reasonably well, since the exposition was being given by people who didn't really know the finer details of what was going on, just that people from the future were giving certain factions boons and using them to manipulate events.
and i think that is how it should have stayed, instead of us getting time agent Daniels showing up later that season and dropping exposition bombs everywhere. make it more shadowy, with more proxies. establish a group that was working agaisnt the Suliban Cabal which also had its own future connection, that seems to be working in the favor of humanity, vulcans, etc.. without actually establishing said group is being aided by the future federation. give it more of a conspiracy vibe, so that Archer and company (and thus the viewer) would be less certain about their goals and find their methods distasteful. so that even the stuff that benefits humanity and the other future federation groups leaves the viewer wondering if it is worth it. (in many ways, the effect that section 31 had in season 3 and 4, and in DS9. heck, perhaps square the circle and have United Earth Starfleet's section 31 being part of said effort.)
short version, the sort of conflict implied by "Broken Bow" and "Future Tense" where the conflict is driven by future stuff, but the action and participants are all native to the 22nd century.
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I was not willing to give Enterprise that long. I think I gave it six or seven episodes,
I got to the first decontaminating gel scene. I've seen maybe a dozen episodes of it since and I feel that I made the right choice. A pilot is a thesis and they nailed it.
The Temporal Cold War was so disappointing. A mystery box story with stock villains which would have done better if JJ Abrams was in charge. Yes, this is a Star Trek project that could have been improved by JJ Abrams. But hey, them and the TEA let us do (good) time travel episodes without belaboring the mechanics of it.
So are we talking about...
1) Pine-Kirk?
2) Wesley-Kirk?
3) Elvis-Cawley-Kirk?
4) Gross-Kirk?
5) Vic-Kirk?
I mean, there is some canon and Non-Canon choices >:D
Blantant EpicLLOYD-Kirk erasure.
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I watched Voyager for seven years waiting for it to get better. It never did. I mean, it improved somewhat, but it never got half as good as TNG or DS9, and that irritated me. I was not willing to give Enterprise that long. I think I gave it six or seven episodes, decided it was more Voyager, and dropped it. Farscape and Lexx were both on the air at that point. Why would I want to go with safe and boring, when I could have crazy and ridiculous, and with better theme songs?
I had to be talked into seeing seasons 3 and 4 of Enterprise some three or four years after it died.
Okay, badgered, not talked, by someone I had some affection for at the time.
The relationship went to hell, but the show was, from about season 3 on to the second-to-last episode, pretty good.
MUCH better than seasons 1 and 2 and more strongly written than Voyager's entire run (though to be honest there were some gems there, unfortunately few of them and many were on the level of 'spock's brain' or worse.)
Kind of a shame that they didn't 'git gud' until the show was already a failure.
I won't say what I think about 'discovery' except that it's...not my cup of raktajino. Strange New Worlds is the show that almost got me to pay for Paramount Plus once I tossed out the roommates and canceled the cable.
almost. I was a hell of a lot more likely to do that, than Disney, and I actually kinda liked Lone wolf and cu-I mean, "The Mandalorian's" first season. Just not enough to pay Disney actual money of MINE to watch it.
(FIVE star wars movies, they did ONE good one, one mediocre one, and three bad ones.)
Then again, I'm the guy who enjoyed JJtrek for what it was-Cheezy Popcorn movies where you check your brain at the door and just enjoy the show. *(FAR more enjoyable than Nemesis or Insurrection were, ugh!!)
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I got to the first decontaminating gel scene. I've seen maybe a dozen episodes of it since and I feel that I made the right choice. A pilot is a thesis and they nailed it.
The Temporal Cold War was so disappointing. A mystery box story with stock villains which would have done better if JJ Abrams was in charge. Yes, this is a Star Trek project that could have been improved by JJ Abrams. But hey, them and the TEA let us do (good) time travel episodes without belaboring the mechanics of it.
Blantant EpicLLOYD-Kirk erasure.
LOL, the list would be far too long to include humour-based versions of Kirk... :D
Speaking of ENT and Voyager...
https://www.youtube.com/@ShuttlepodShow
https://www.youtube.com/@SteveShives/videos
Apparently its a hoot for actors to create content on social media (like on YT), some good, some so-not... The Shuttlepod is (IMHO) one of the better ones i watch, simply because of the gig presented. The second one? He can be political* but his focus on Star Trek is intriguing...
*Be warned: He's merciless to extremist conservatives (you should hide your MAGA Hat at the door)
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why did you spoiler that? It's not like it's an unusual or rare opinion. nor even particularlly controversial. It's pretty common statement that Enterprise got good only after the 2nd season was over, and the numbers and upcoming merger of two networks combined to kill it, and those numbers were largely due to the poor execution of the first two seasons of Enterprise's writing room.
A problem Voyager also suffered from in ITS first two seasons, but unlike Enterprise, Voyager had slack with the executives.
Mostly just in case anyone hadn't seen episode three yet and didn't know it was a time travel episode. Erring on the side of caution I guess.
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This has been one of the best runs of Trek episodes I've seen in a while.
Also, Yeoman "I'm going to take the martial, social, and scientific knowledge of a Starfleet captain and take away the explicit morality before I torture them" maybe didn't think their plan through.
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Manny Coto, showrunner for the last series of Enterprise died last night from pancreatic cancer. He was only 62.
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Manny Coto, showrunner for the last series of Enterprise died last night from pancreatic cancer. He was only 62.
Very sad. RIP.
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SPOILER TAG (because I don't want to mark the whole post up CIA-style):
I've had a feeling this season of SNW of deja vu a couple of times- I've seen this story told, haven't I? Another damned 'crew get whisked to the 21st century' story, another 'what if this character became another species?' one this time around... and if it were just that on paper, I'd probably be tuning them out at this point. Trek has a really, REALLY bad habit of falling into the same tired tropes over and over again, and it's disappointing to see SNW follow that trend.
But.
What has saved the day each time is the acting. They knocked it out of the park with casting these characters, and Ethan Peck was on fire this week- he chewed that scenery the way he chewed that bacon, all throughout. A bland and overdone concept became his playground, and holy crap did he get his fun in. I was actually sorry that a cure was developed by the end- I want more Wild-Spock! Between this, the genuine emotion we saw from Christina Chong (La'an) a couple of weeks ago in the time-travel episode, and Anson Mount's incredibly charismatic Pike on a weekly basis, they've got a hell of a good cast going here, and it salvages weak episodes in a way that past Trek might not have.
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I felt that way in series 1 for sure, the cast and production values were salvaging some good but not great stories, but I do think the writing is better this year. It definitely feels like they're trying to make Star Trek comfort food with SNW, no rocking the boat, no bold new directions, just standard Trek stories executed well.
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Anson Mount and Ethan Pack portray of Pike and Spock, was so strong in Discovery Season 2 got them this whole series and spending tens of millions of dollars on this show. Its finally good to see the both of them acting and working off each other. Kinda missing in season 2.
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I've had a feeling this season of SNW of deja vu a couple of times- I've seen this story told, haven't I? Another damned 'crew get whisked to the 21st century' story, another 'what if this character became another species?' one this time around... and if it were just that on paper, I'd probably be tuning them out at this point. Trek has a really, REALLY bad habit of falling into the same tired tropes over and over again, and it's disappointing to see SNW follow that trend.
The idea that Star Trek had kind of "done everything" and that more of the same was going to be more of those tired tropes is why we got Discovery (no offense) and Picard (much offense).
Much like the South Park episode, "Simpsons Already Did It," maybe accept that some tropes and pieces of story will get repeated and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I never saw the Discovery episode where everyone's species' got swapped around, but that's a vast simplification of what happened to Spock in a story which acknowledged Amanda's history, T'Pring's difficulties as her own person, and Nurse Chapel trying to thread the needle of her attraction to Spock.
It was full of fun hijinks and showed us a Vulcan family that's not Sarek or T'Pol as well as giving a story about a man being emotional in way I don't think I've ever seen before.
The acting is good, but the stories are just solidly written and touch on supporting characters in a way that I haven't seen since DS9. They've used familiar premises to tell some crackerjack stories; I don't feel that's becoming familiar or rote.
That said: how close is this incredibly unexplored ancient civilization/space rift to the homeworld of a founding civilization of The Federation? How is Pike salting Vulcan food because his kitchen is hotter than a Vulcan kitchen? "Hotter than a Vulcan kitchen" should be a turn of phrase for something that's very hot. Those are just nitpicks though; this has been the best run of Trek episodes I've seen in a long time.
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I felt that way in series 1 for sure, the cast and production values were salvaging some good but not great stories, but I do think the writing is better this year. It definitely feels like they're trying to make Star Trek comfort food with SNW, no rocking the boat, no bold new directions, just standard Trek stories executed well.
What's left for them to do, really? What can they do that hasn't already been done by any preceding Trek series and The Orville?
Cheers,
Gabe
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You can freshen a story line by putting different characters into it. If the writers are doing their job right and not making every single character the same person but for the color of their shirt, then they can get wildly varying outcomes from placing different characters in the same situation.
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You can freshen a story line by putting different characters into it. If the writers are doing their job right and not making every single character the same person but for the color of their shirt, then they can get wildly varying outcomes from placing different characters in the same situation.
chiming in supporting Jal Phoenix's comment here (gasp! I'm not arguing with anyone!!!)
Someone said in a course I once took, there are three themes and seven plots in fiction.
Themes being:
Man vs. Nature
Man vs. Man
Man vs. Himself (from some greek philosopher I don't remember clearly).
I don't remember the seven plots, but the point is, you have to go a long, long, long way to find something that doesn't 'sound like something else' in storytelling period.
what makes the tales unique, is Execution.
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That said: how close is this incredibly unexplored ancient civilization/space rift to the homeworld of a founding civilization of The Federation?
It's practically in the Vulcans' backyard (different star of the same triple system); how they seemed to have failed to notice it kind of beggars belief.
Even more unbelievable is this alien species that seems to have transcended the need for physical bodies and a physical civilzation to live in interdimensional space--maybe a step below the Prophets--and yet remain obtusely bureaucratic. There's something almost Rick and Morty-esque about that. Then again, this episode was penned by a member of the Lower Decks writing staff, so...
cheers,
Gabe
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Nice little episode this week. I don't think Jim Kirk was really necessary, but it was, as it always is when they're around, fun. Even if maybe they shouldn't really get to do a bit about learning to face death.
Carol Kane continues to be a delight.
I hear next week's episode is The Lower Decks crossover and there's still a musical episode in the pipeline.
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Nice little episode this week. I don't think Jim Kirk was really necessary, but it was, as it always is when they're around, fun. Even if maybe they shouldn't really get to do a bit about learning to face death.
Carol Kane continues to be a delight.
I hear next week's episode is The Lower Decks crossover and there's still a musical episode in the pipeline.
They released next weeks episode today. Apparently Orion alcohol has strange effects.
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They released next weeks episode today. Apparently Orion alcohol has strange effects.
CLAPCLAPCLAPCALPPLACCALPCLAPCALPCLAPCLAP.... All I can say is that it was as hilarious as I had hoped.
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I don't know what I was expecting, but they knocked that episode out of the park. M'Benga's outburst at the end made me laugh hard enough that I scared my cats.
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To make things weirder, episode 8 is going to be a musical...
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That said: how close is this incredibly unexplored ancient civilization/space rift to the homeworld of a founding civilization of The Federation? How is Pike salting Vulcan food because his kitchen is hotter than a Vulcan kitchen? "Hotter than a Vulcan kitchen" should be a turn of phrase for something that's very hot. Those are just nitpicks though; this has been the best run of Trek episodes I've seen in a long time.
He didn't say hotter. He said his starship was more humid, so he added salt to compensate.
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He didn't say hotter. He said his starship was more humid, so he added salt to compensate.
Ah. I guess I misheard.
"Those Old Scientists," was a fun time. Love love Lower Decks, but they really paced the story so that Boimler quit grating around the time he got really annoying. :smilie_happy_thumbup:
Also the "ancient Nausicans built a time portal but are politically irrelevant in the modern day" also plays into the theory that the Federation-era of the Star Trek universe exists in the wake of several time wars.
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It's practically in the Vulcans' backyard (different star of the same triple system); how they seemed to have failed to notice it kind of beggars belief.
Even more unbelievable is this alien species that seems to have transcended the need for physical bodies and a physical civilzation to live in interdimensional space--maybe a step below the Prophets--and yet remain obtusely bureaucratic. There's something almost Rick and Morty-esque about that. Then again, this episode was penned by a member of the Lower Decks writing staff, so...
cheers,
Gabe
the vulcans were established in ENT to not be big on physical exploration, preferring instead to just rely on sensors and scans. if the aliens don't show up on such scans or read like something natural, the vulcans could easily have missed it.
and bureaucracy isn't exactly incompatible with the idea of enlightenment and higher orders of beings. heck, in some asian belief systems the entire cosmos is one massive divine bureaucratic structure. if the alien species had beliefs of the sort before they ascended, such a society would be a natural development. and we have seen from other trek energy beings (the metrons, the organians, etc) that such beings tend to be very big on laws and structure. (heck even the Q, as all the ones we've met that are John Delancie, are generally only showing up because John-Delancie-Q did something against their rules.) and given that disputes between such beings tend to have pretty nasty effects in normal space (such as in the Q civil war, which caused stars to go nova), it isn't hard to see why such societies would need a lot of strict structure.
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To make things weirder, episode 8 is going to be a musical...
Whew, its a good thing I didnt bother to invest watching that show... cheesy
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Paramount+ have confirmed SNW will not be skipping a week as a result of episode 7 being aired early, the schedule is now:
Thursday, July 27 – Episode 208, “Under the Cloak of War”
Thursday, August 3 – Episode 209, “Subspace Rhapsody” (the musical)
Thursday, August 10 – Episode 210 (Season Finale), “Hegemony”
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I was... concerned the SNW/LD crossover wouldn't work but it really did
I'm also confused (not hard with Star Trek) one of the producers said the other day that SNW is forging its own path following canon but also righting what he called some mistakes that were made. Also that to be futuristic the show had to occur in the future hence the first time travel episode moving the Eugenitics War start date. (Nothing and i mean nothing to do with budget not covering an episode set ib 1996) This suggests it's slightly different from Prime and Kelvin Timelines
Now here's the confusion... LDs is canon or at least appears to be to everything else (given all the familiar references in it) so SNWs is in the same timeframe or not? I wish producer's would keep their trap shut sometimes. Either way I enjoy both shows
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I was... concerned the SNW/LD crossover wouldn't work but it really did
I'm also confused (not hard with Star Trek) one of the producers said the other day that SNW is forging its own path following canon but also righting what he called some mistakes that were made. Also that to be futuristic the show had to occur in the future hence the first time travel episode moving the Eugenitics War start date. (Nothing and i mean nothing to do with budget not covering an episode set ib 1996) This suggests it's slightly different from Prime and Kelvin Timelines
Now here's the confusion... LDs is canon or at least appears to be to everything else (given all the familiar references in it) so SNWs is in the same timeframe or not? I wish producer's would keep their trap shut sometimes. Either way I enjoy both shows
I rather like the idea that the changes we're seeing to the canon are actually a result of the Temporal Cold War, or some other time conflict. It's a handy excuse that let's them ignore conflicting bits of canon. I wish I could do that with my writing sometimes.
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Apparently Trek canon updates itself for the future whenever a show messes with time. Events happen, just not when they were established on a set date, but still happen nonetheless. I guess that's one way to avoid fixing fixed points in time.
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I loved the crossover. Keeping every characters actions "in character" was perfect!
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Did anyone sport Boimler power walking away from Una when she comes up on him and Mariner talking in the corridor?
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That was an awesome episode :D
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Apparently Trek canon updates itself for the future whenever a show messes with time. Events happen, just not when they were established on a set date, but still happen nonetheless. I guess that's one way to avoid fixing fixed points in time.
I might be easier if they just admitted the Prime timeline diverged in 1966 and quit sweating it. There's not too much a jaunt to modern day Earth can accomplish that an alien civilization couldn't.
I love the "crew visits modern day Earth" stories. I really do. But I don't think there's a point to it when you're just putting science fiction stuff into "modern day" Earth.
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I have to wonder if they keep bringing Kirk back if that means they plan to do a Pike to Kirk handoff at some point? If they do does that mean we get a Talos IV episode at some point? Recreating or reimagining that episode for SNW would be awesome IMO.
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I might be easier if they just admitted the Prime timeline diverged in 1966 and quit sweating it. There's not too much a jaunt to modern day Earth can accomplish that an alien civilization couldn't.
I love the "crew visits modern day Earth" stories. I really do. But I don't think there's a point to it when you're just putting science fiction stuff into "modern day" Earth.
Or don't bother doing anything about it as only 0.00001% of fans knows or cares about the timeline to that extent. :)
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I have to wonder if they keep bringing Kirk back if that means they plan to do a Pike to Kirk handoff at some point? If they do does that mean we get a Talos IV episode at some point? Recreating or reimagining that episode for SNW would be awesome IMO.
The Cage has already happened, it took place about 2 years before DISCO started, and there was an episode in DISCO series 2 where Spock and Burnham went to Talos IV and Pike interacted with Vina.
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The Cage has already happened, it took place about 2 years before DISCO started, and there was an episode in DISCO series 2 where Spock and Burnham went to Talos IV and Pike interacted with Vina.
Must have missed that. I guess I'll have to go look at season 2 again.
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The episode even has a previously on using clips from The Cage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhqZULjMne4
(that match cut between Jeffrey Hunter and Anson Mount was fantastic)
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Or don't bother doing anything about it as only 0.00001% of fans knows or cares about the timeline to that extent. :)
That is very true.
I might have to dig up that Discovery episode. Looks like it 2x08, "If Memory Serves"
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In case anyone is interested, Memory Alpha's timeline puts the major events in and around TOS/SNW/DISCO series 1 and 2 as follows:
2250: Pike takes command of Enterprise, Una is promoted to first officer. Kirk and Gary Mitchel become friends
2252: Kirk enrolls in the officer training program at Starfleet Academy, first encounters Finnegan and Ben Finney.
2253: Ensign Spock is assigned to the Enterprise, as seen in the Short Trek Q&A
2254: Spock is promoted to lieutenant, the events of The Cage take place. Kirk is assigned to USS Republic as his cadet cruise.
2255: Kirk graduates academy and is assigned to USS Farragut as a weapons officer
2256: DISCO series 1 begins, the Battle of the Binary Stars and the Federation-Klingon war begins.
2257: DISCO series 1 ends, and the first couple of episodes of series 2 take place
2258: DISCO series 2 ends, USS Discovery travels a thousand years into the future. The episode set on Talos IV takes place this year
2259: The events of SNW series 1 and 2 to this point take place
2264: Pike leaves the Enterprise, Kirk is promoted to Captain.
2265-2269: the events of TOS take place
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Did anyone watch the musical episode they did for SNW? Sounds its evolving into Strange New Episodes..
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Did anyone watch the musical episode they did for SNW? Sounds its evolving into Strange New Episodes..
It doesn't air for two more weeks.
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In case anyone is interested, Memory Alpha's timeline puts the major events in and around TOS/SNW/DISCO series 1 and 2 as follows:
2250: Pike takes command of Enterprise, Una is promoted to first officer. Kirk and Gary Mitchel become friends
2252: Kirk enrolls in the officer training program at Starfleet Academy, first encounters Finnegan and Ben Finney.
2253: Ensign Spock is assigned to the Enterprise, as seen in the Short Trek Q&A
2254: Spock is promoted to lieutenant, the events of The Cage take place. Kirk is assigned to USS Republic as his cadet cruise.
2255: Kirk graduates academy and is assigned to USS Farragut as a weapons officer
2256: DISCO series 1 begins, the Battle of the Binary Stars and the Federation-Klingon war begins.
2257: DISCO series 1 ends, and the first couple of episodes of series 2 take place
2258: DISCO series 2 ends, USS Discovery travels a thousand years into the future. The episode set on Talos IV takes place this year
2259: The events of SNW series 1 and 2 to this point take place
2264: Pike leaves the Enterprise, Kirk is promoted to Captain.
2265-2269: the events of TOS take place
if the two seasons to an in-show year pace is kept, that means that SNW could go for another 10 seasons/IRL years before they have to worry about the handoff between captains. which would make it the longest running series in terms of real world filming and release time (though not in terms of total episodes)
given the way they've been handling Pike's future knowledge, i doubt they have plans to go that long.
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I might have to dig up that Discovery episode. Looks like it 2x08, "If Memory Serves"
I saw action, romantic drama, family drama, plot twists, and a mystery box story and damn if I wasn't unimpressed.
Everyone is just so mean.
Except Captain Pike, who's still a G.
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It doesn't air for two more weeks.
I meant the trailer. Been a "Week" for me :tongue:
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After the hilarity and charm of 'Those Old Scientists', I figured we'd get back to a more serious tone for this week's 'Under The Cloak of War'.
A SERIOUS tone. Not 'holy shit, that's one of the darkest Trek episodes I've ever watched'.
That's not a complaint. I loved it- M'Benga is a fantastic character, so episodes in which he's prominent are always a joy, and this was a really great story to tell with a couple of very good twists to it. It was just also very grim and tragic, and made for a big shift from last weekend's fun. More like this, for sure, is welcome.
You know, after our song and dance number next week, that is. :tongue:
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After the hilarity and charm of 'Those Old Scientists', I figured we'd get back to a more serious tone for this week's 'Under The Cloak of War'.
A SERIOUS tone. Not 'holy shit, that's one of the darkest Trek episodes I've ever watched'.
That's not a complaint. I loved it- M'Benga is a fantastic character, so episodes in which he's prominent are always a joy, and this was a really great story to tell with a couple of very good twists to it. It was just also very grim and tragic, and made for a big shift from last weekend's fun. More like this, for sure, is welcome.
You know, after our song and dance number next week, that is. :tongue:
Yeah I agree with you completely it was some shift and very well done it reminded me of The Seige of AR558 in DS9's Dominion War but without Vic Fontane to ease it. It felt like a war film through Star Treks gaze very different
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Just a hell of a show.
Also, great to see Clint Howard again.
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Babs Olusanmokun acted the heck out of that episode. M'Benga is easily one of my favorite characters on SNW and he really shone in this one. They didn't really touch on it, but it was interesting to see M'Benga's experience vs Pike's idealism. Plus it is great to see Ortegas getting some more direct screen time.
i
If I had to be nitpicky about the episode (and honestly there really isn't anything to be nitpicky about) it was that it was tonally very whiplash-y coming off episode 7. I feel like it would have been better following a more normal episode rather than one full of hijinks.
Edit: You know, now that I think about it, SNW really highlights my biggest complaint with Disco: we're 4 seasons through and we still barely know anything about the bridge crew. We know Burnham, Saru, Tilly, Stamets, & Culber. And that's it. The rest of the main cast are lucky if they even get a name (looking at Owo and Detmer). The others...two guys that I can't even remember their names. And then lizard guy who must spend a couple hours in the makeup chair and he's had what...three lines in the whole show? Contrast that with 2.5 seasons of SNW and even with about the same amount of main cast we've spent multiple episodes learning about these characters: they feel like actual characters and not just deluxe extras.
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i
If I had to be nitpicky about the episode (and honestly there really isn't anything to be nitpicky about) it was that it was tonally very whiplash-y coming off episode 7. I feel like it would have been better following a more normal episode rather than one full of hijinks.
I think that's a deliberate choice, given the next episode is the musical. Sandwich the ultra-heavy episode in between the two silliest ones before we get one that looks like we're going back to the Gorn.
Edit: You know, now that I think about it, SNW really highlights my biggest complaint with Disco: we're 4 seasons through and we still barely know anything about the bridge crew. We know Burnham, Saru, Tilly, Stamets, & Culber. And that's it. The rest of the main cast are lucky if they even get a name (looking at Owo and Detmer). The others...two guys that I can't even remember their names. And then lizard guy who must spend a couple hours in the makeup chair and he's had what...three lines in the whole show? Contrast that with 2.5 seasons of SNW and even with about the same amount of main cast we've spent multiple episodes learning about these characters: they feel like actual characters and not just deluxe extras.
i think this is a fair criticism, but the Bridge crew are deluxe extras, and that was a choice the DISCO producers made at the start. None of them are in the main cast, they're in the cast list in the closing credits rather than the opening ones. They're the equivalent of the recurring officers we've seen sitting in for Number One and Uhura on the bridge or the Transport chiefs in SNW. I agree it wasn't the best choice, especially as the show shifted focus over the years and the attempts to rectify it like having a few of the crew awkwardly infodump a fact or two about them in series 4 didn't work, but they're never going to get the same amount of focus as Burnham, Saru, Tilly, Stamets and Culber
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If you want to talk about unfair to extras - Morn from DS9 is the classic example. 91 episodes without ever saying a word.
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If you want to talk about unfair to extras - Morn from DS9 is the classic example. 91 episodes without ever saying a word.
What are you talking about? He never shuts up!
(jokes aside, Morn actually has a line in the German dub)
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Backing the Discovery point completely. Remember a couple of seasons ago, when Detmer (the helm officer) hit her head on the console? And they started kind of exploring her head trauma? Had her big blow-up at dinner with some of the other officers? I was THRILLED. Both as someone who deals with the effects of head trauma on a regular basis, and as someone who wanted to see non-Burnham members of the crew start getting fleshed out more. Here's an opportunity to really learn more about Detmer, what makes her tick, her personality, how her implants affect her, more about- nah, just kidding, we dropped that storyline like a finally-finished reseen Thunderbolt miniature without ever really going anywhere with it. (Side note, painting this morning didn't go well ;) )
That's not to say other people on the show haven't had more screen time- obviously we've had more with people like Stamets and Tilly (whose absence has been greatly felt on that show), but not nearly to the extent that past shows have done- we knew characters like Bashir, Kim, and Troi in ways we never have had the opportunity to learn most of Discovery's cast. SNG seems to be doing a really good job of fleshing out everyone on the cast, despite only being a year and a half in I feel like we know more about these people than most of Discovery's people. That's a positive- hell, even Lower Decks has started to have some fun with looking more at the bridge crew that we're not supposed to care about, and that's been both surprising and refreshing, rather than just focusing on the big four.
Discovery isn't a bad show, though I found last season a bit tough to get through. But character development hasn't been its strong suit, for sure.
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Anyone else waiting to be able to buy their Regulation Starfleet Beanie? :laugh:
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Subspace Rhapsody is brilliant very different but lots of fun
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I felt the songs could have been better- they were fine but nothing I'd listen to outside of the episode. The story was a lot of fun and had good dramatic moments alongside the funnier ones and it worked will into continuity with references to Roger Korby and Carol Marcus. And it was nice to see Bruce Horak back again
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I'm not a fan of musicals but I gotta admit, it was surprisingly good. The final number was true cheese and the singing & dancing Klingons were hilarious.
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I'm not a fan of musicals but I gotta admit, it was surprisingly good. The final number was true cheese and the singing & dancing Klingons were hilarious.
The whole thing was fun- not 'let's do this again soon' fun, but surprisingly fun. And yes, that last bit was... going to be hard to scrub out of my head the next time we see Klingons. I presume in the future this will be another thing that Worf 'does not talk about with outsiders'.
I think one of the things I've really enjoyed to this season is watching the writers and cast just do whatever the hell they feel like. Vitriolic fan backlash has had so much effect on shows/movies like this over the years (see: Star Wars Ep. VIII), often to the great detriment of future projects (see: Ep. IX!). It would have been easy for the producers and staff to look at the reactions to Season 1 of SNW and try to just give fan service, stick with the known, not push any boundaries and be safe... and instead, look at the last few episodes. We've done psychological horror. We've done a zany comedy/animation crossover. A grim war drama. A ****** MUSICAL. These folks looked potential fan backlash in the eye and said 'meh', and I have to be honest, I love them for it. I hope other industry projects in the future look at Season 2 as a how-to guide to ignore toxicity and just do what they want to do.
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The whole thing was fun- not 'let's do this again soon' fun, but surprisingly fun. And yes, that last bit was... going to be hard to scrub out of my head the next time we see Klingons. I presume in the future this will be another thing that Worf 'does not talk about with outsiders'.
I think one of the things I've really enjoyed to this season is watching the writers and cast just do whatever the hell they feel like. Vitriolic fan backlash has had so much effect on shows/movies like this over the years (see: Star Wars Ep. VIII), often to the great detriment of future projects (see: Ep. IX!). It would have been easy for the producers and staff to look at the reactions to Season 1 of SNW and try to just give fan service, stick with the known, not push any boundaries and be safe... and instead, look at the last few episodes. We've done psychological horror. We've done a zany comedy/animation crossover. A grim war drama. A ****** MUSICAL. These folks looked potential fan backlash in the eye and said 'meh', and I have to be honest, I love them for it. I hope other industry projects in the future look at Season 2 as a how-to guide to ignore toxicity and just do what they want to do.
Still have to watch the latest episode but agreed, I don't care what the haters say, SNW is easily some of the best Trek out there, new or old, and I'm all here for it.
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The whole thing was fun- not 'let's do this again soon' fun, but surprisingly fun. And yes, that last bit was... going to be hard to scrub out of my head the next time we see Klingons. I presume in the future this will be another thing that Worf 'does not talk about with outsiders'.
I think one of the things I've really enjoyed to this season is watching the writers and cast just do whatever the hell they feel like. Vitriolic fan backlash has had so much effect on shows/movies like this over the years (see: Star Wars Ep. VIII), often to the great detriment of future projects (see: Ep. IX!). It would have been easy for the producers and staff to look at the reactions to Season 1 of SNW and try to just give fan service, stick with the known, not push any boundaries and be safe... and instead, look at the last few episodes. We've done psychological horror. We've done a zany comedy/animation crossover. A grim war drama. A ****** MUSICAL. These folks looked potential fan backlash in the eye and said 'meh', and I have to be honest, I love them for it. I hope other industry projects in the future look at Season 2 as a how-to guide to ignore toxicity and just do what they want to do.
I had a really big post and I erased it, because I know it would be taken EXACTLY the wrong way.
so I'll try it a different way.
What you're loving? that? that's not just not caring about backlash from the fandom, it's also not caring about what the HR/DEI specialists at Paramount/CBS think, or the perpetual critics on Tumblr, or the snot-faced meddlers who whine and can't comprehend a future where these present culture 'wars' are dead issues... and that's why it works.
It works because SNW decided to make GOOD STORIES with INTERESTING CHARACTERS who weren't two dimensional Caricatures.
That lets the cast have fun, it lets the writers write and the actors (and actresses) ACT, and when you're genuine, you can get away with shit that people who aren't, simply can't.
In a way, it might be true: first child gets wrapped in bubble paper, the second gets neglected, and they let the third one juggle knives and poke the outlet with a fork.
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Anyone else waiting to be able to buy their Regulation Starfleet Beanie? :laugh:
I don't know if it's dead-on, but it's close: https://shop.startrek.com/collections/hats/products/star-trek-the-original-series-delta-embroidered-beanie?variant=29624370528355 (https://shop.startrek.com/collections/hats/products/star-trek-the-original-series-delta-embroidered-beanie?variant=29624370528355)
I felt the songs could have been better- they were fine but nothing I'd listen to outside of the episode.
Yeah. Good episode. Fine songs that served the story and characters. But it's no Steven Universe.
I presume in the future this will be another thing that Worf 'does not talk about with outsiders'.
I see why they played it like that, but Klingons do like music. I guess it's because we tapped into the 20th Century Earth musicals universe and not the Klingon Opera Universe. Which would have also been fun. If bloody.
I think one of the things I've really enjoyed to this season is watching the writers and cast just do whatever the hell they feel like.
As someone who is pretty critical of media, I have enjoyed the hell out of the no ****** given attitude of SNW. I hope other folks do too because I want more well written, bold TV that challenges--it's getting canceled, isn't it?
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Alright, I'm just gonna say it: SNW is my favorite Trek after TNG. It's fun, it gives great characters we can care about, it looks gorgeous, also, Pike's hair.
And now it's given us Klingon K-Pop. GLORIOUS!!
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And now it's given us Klingon K-Pop. GLORIOUS!!
I call it Qa'pop.
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proof that they were being effected by something outside themselves, since it is well known that klingons lean more towards Opera (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Klingon_opera).
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The rules were for, luckily, human musical productions and not Klingon ones.
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Considering what bit we heard of Melohta that's a good thing.
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I've really enjoyed Strange New Pants both seasons 1 and 2, its Star Trek again along with Picard Season 3 (don't get me started on the dumpster fire that was season 1 and 2 of Picard, I loathe those shows). With the musical, I was cackling all the way through, it was FUN :)
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I've really enjoyed Strange New Pants both seasons 1 and 2, its Star Trek again along with Picard Season 3 (don't get me started on the dumpster fire that was season 1 and 2 of Picard, I loathe those shows). With the musical, I was cackling all the way through, it was FUN :)
I believe marauder648 has submitted the first suggested Name of the next ST General Thread III?
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Why shouldn't the Klingons have their own pop music, musical theatre music, jazz-equivalent, rock equivalent and Rap??
we hear about Klingon Opera because Worf was raised in a human household and trying like hell to be what seemed like the perfect klingon Warrior.
Kinda like the Bostonian who insists on their irishness to the point of being ludicrous, or that asian kid from Los Angeles who's trying like hell to be a model Samurai because his grandfather was a samurai-but that was two generations ago and dad moved the U.S. as a child.
Worf liked Opera. Doesn't mean every Klingon is on the same groove...or even MOST. The Klingon people are an ANCIENT culture- they've done some pretty sick and amazing things that Humanity never quite managed. (see: encoding a message in the DNA of a living being without killing it, or even substantially altering either the being or the DNA, and being able to do so in such a manner that the information can be moved and still useful when it's been read...aka the first double-episode of Enterprise. These guys are past-masters of Genetics and biology, which is not something you master by jumping from bronze age barefoot barbarians to stolen warp drives...which in itself is an indicator of one HELL of a lot of high intelligence if that's actually what they did, rather than a legendary lie they tell themselves to justify the present social order.)
Just as an aside, for Klingon History to fit the Legend they tell themselves? They're the best natural mechanics in existence. You give a bronze age tribesman a radio, he's not going to set up long range commo, he's going to use it to electrocute fish-by tossing it in the pond.
This would be super-genius shit here, which is not apparent in the rest of their conduct or lack of long term success. (the Empire, even Disco's take, is in decline, something that tends to happen to OLD cultures that have atrophied).
so who says they CAN'T enjoy a bit of Musical Theater, or maybe a nice rock concert, or even Klingon version of Country or Folk music? I know, the stereotype of 'Planet of Hats' but ya gotta realize that's a STEREOTYPE, in a sense, it's a sort of bigotry to assume that Klingons would ONLY like Opera-kind of in the same vein as claiming that nobody south of the Mason Dixon and east of the rockies can do rock and roll.
even though that's where it CAME FROM.
Not all Poles like Polka. I'd wager not very many of them like it any more than Anglos from Birmingham (either England or Alabama).
if you want to see a crowd go nuts over a heavy metal act, you don't look at Sweden, you look at Columbia or Brazil.
neither place being somewhere that an insular Los Angelino or New Yorker would think of as grooving on hard rock, the assumption being some variation of mariachi, because that's what the mainstream media told them.
Same thing with Klingon music, Klingon Art, Klingon media-we don't get a balanced view very often because nobody's makiing a series from the Klingon perspective (mostly because that perspective is fictional, so it's not really likely you'll find a Native to interview, unlike a Brazilian at a Sabaton concert, or a Columbian fan of The Accused, Lamb of God, or Rage of Light)
The middle class kid trying to be 'Gangsta' (Worf) isn't a good measure on what kind of culture you'll actually find in the Ghetto or the Barrio, likewise for the rich upper class urban kid who's trying like hell to score redneck cred.
Klingons doing show-tunes? I haven't even seen the episode yet, and I can mentally see it.
Why?
Because Klingons have been shown already to have enough range just in the ones we've seen since Kang and Kor were giving Kirk fits that they'd have that very thing...somwhere in their pop culture.
I rather imagine you'll find Klingon Gamers and Klingon comic-book fans, Klingon pacifists and Klingon Communists (along with Klingon free-market libertarians).
some of these might be hiding from the Klingon Government, but I bet they exist...or would, if Paramount decided to devote a feature series to a Klingon Crew or House.
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I just thought it clever dad joke. K-pop, aka Klingon Pop. It just so happens to match a type of 21st century pop.
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Lower Decks has had a pretty famous Klingon lending his face and voice to be the (AI) game master of a Klingon role playing game in a few episodes.
Ruger
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Lower Decks also gave us Klingon Crust Punk as a genre, and in Picard Kestra had a poster in her room for a Klingon band called the Sex Phasers, so there's definitely more than opera in canon.
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Lower Decks also gave us Klingon Crust Punk as a genre, and in Picard Kestra had a poster in her room for a Klingon band called the Sex Phasers, so there's definitely more than opera in canon.
i'd forgotten about the LD klingon punk stuff. though i suspect that such is an example of human/federation music catching on in the Empire. i'd imagine that punk and heavy metal would appeal to the Klingon sense of aesthetics.
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yeah, at this point there's been contact between the Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers for centuries, there's no way that cultural bleed hasn't happened even when the Klingons have lengthy xenophobic phases and the Romulans are secretive and isolationist. Like you say, if the Klingons didn't have punk in our 22nd century, it's a style of music that fits their idiom and culture perfectly.
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Lower Decks also gave us Klingon Crust Punk as a genre, and in Picard Kestra had a poster in her room for a Klingon band called the Sex Phasers, so there's definitely more than opera in canon.
There was also that Voyager episode where B'elanna programmed the EMH's simulated son to be into culturally transgressive Klingon music, right?
yeah, at this point there's been contact between the Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers for centuries, there's no way that cultural bleed hasn't happened
While I like the theory that Shakespeare aligns with Klingon history with an uncanny accuracy, that the Klingons were claiming him as their own only a few decades later attests to that.
I prefer to think that the taboo for Klingons wasn't so much the music itself, but the compromising emotional component. If you were to suddenly learn you were the target of a Klingon woman's affections, how would you effectively duck thrown objects while singing?
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There was also that Voyager episode where B'elanna programmed the EMH's simulated son to be into culturally transgressive Klingon music, right?
i'd forgotten about that one. looking at a transcript.. the music wasn't identified in dialog as to the specific style, just that it was klingon. the big issue with the reprogrammed kid was that he was starting to behave more klingon, and hang out with two klingon kids, resulting in him being violent and disrespectful. and the big reveal later was that he'd gotten a klingon knife and was going to do an initiation where he had to hurt a person to start himself down the path of the warrior... honestly, a very very thinly disguised allegory for streetgangs and the Punk/heavy metal scene that was widely blamed for teenage gang stuff in the 80's. (ironically, the episode aired in '97, when blame for teenage gang problems had largely shifted to Rap music)
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Prodigy series 2 preview
https://intl.startrek.com/videos/star-trek-prodigy-season-2-first-look
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Nice shots of the Voyager-A, but looked like a discount Enterprise-E
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Call me jaded, but I don't think the showrunners and people on the show have visual ship making happy crew over there in Paramount/CBS studios anymore.
Everything is hinging more from What I've seen is from Star Trek Online (barring Discovery & Pike's version of the Enterprise. Discovery comes from the original proposed redesign intended for Phase II of Star Trek series that was changed to a film.)
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Klingons certainly sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqfKoVQMylY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqfKoVQMylY)
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Nice shots of the Voyager-A, but looked like a discount Enterprise-E
its also iirc the first time we've seen a ship's shuttlecraft that didn't share the same nacelle design as its parent ship (at least, first time for a shuttlecraft that wasn't just a reuse of an older filming/CGI model)
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Call me jaded, but I don't think the showrunners and people on the show have visual ship making happy crew over there in Paramount/CBS studios anymore.
Everything is hinging more from What I've seen is from Star Trek Online (barring Discovery & Pike's version of the Enterprise. Discovery comes from the original proposed redesign intended for Phase II of Star Trek series that was changed to a film.)
It probably has a lot to do with royalties more than anything else...
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They talked about it when they used the STO designs in Picard series 2 - the show didn't have the time or budget to create a ton of new ship designs, people got upset about the copy-and-paste fleet in the series 1 finale, so they used assets they had the rights to and could be adapted quickly and easily.
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Having STO being source of new ships I think is good idea. People are using them, they know them. Frankly, with budget issues...I think its better choice.
I was bit...shocked when I saw so many repeat of old ships as the part of the line up Starships in the Picard universe. Rose = Galaxy Glass, Reliant Class = Miranda, Excelsior II and so forth.
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Having STO being source of new ships I think is good idea. People are using them, they know them. Frankly, with budget issues...I think its better choice.
I was bit...shocked when I saw so many repeat of old ships as the part of the line up Starships in the Picard universe. Ross Class = Galaxy Glass, Reliant Class = Miranda, Excelsior II and so forth.
I never played STO, but I've come to respect it just from the secondhand regard so many people have for it.
As far as repeated older designs, the Excelsior-class served for 80-ish years and it helped win The Dominion War. I think a heterogeneous fleet feels a bit more grounded. Having specialty ships, experimental designs, and designs of varying age in use because they still get the job done seems more reasonable than building a shiny new fleet with a single aesthetic every 10 years.
But then I also think stripping Titan down to the nacelle baffles and rebuilding it into a completely new ship before renaming it "Enterprise Char(Code(EntCurrent)+1)" is a waste of resources.
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i believe the lore actually has it being less of a "strip it down and rebuild it into a different ship" and more "turns out the titan is too beat up to repair and refit, time to scrap it and use the salvaged still good components in this other ship we're currently starting to build"
i do agree that renaming an existing functional ship (especially one that was already a legacy registry) to be the new enterprise is a bit meh.
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The shipyards of the Federation must be in TERRIBLE SHAPE if they have to completely build a new ship from the old one. To me make no sense to me.
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The shipyards of the Federation must be in TERRIBLE SHAPE if they have to completely build a new ship from the old one. To me make no sense to me.
budgets!!
no, seriously. Think about it. HOw often do we see various panels, control surfaces, and conduits explode due to accidents, overloads, and battle damage?
How often would that seem to be something that should've been routed through a fuse or breaker?
Yes, pretty often on both.
These are supremely expensive pieces of equipment, but the frequency suggests that the quality control can be unfavorably compared to the modern computer chip market, with only the BEST parts going into a Starship out of, say, a thousand or two thousand produced...and they're all custom work.
thus, it's cheaper to salvage the working bits from a ship that has served than to new-build-because the parts you're using, are parts that have already proven to be of good quality.
I mean, think about it; Kirk's second Enterprise (after Genesis) was a nightmare of malfunctions and rework. The first Enterprise, (the refit) ran like a clock even when it shouldn't have.
There's a lesson here.
recycling the good parts means those systems will probably just work...whereas new-builds may well not.
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The shipyards of the Federation must be in TERRIBLE SHAPE if they have to completely build a new ship from the old one. To me make no sense to me.
Just because you can replicate parts doesn't mean you have to. If the Titan frame itself is aged, but individual components aren't, there's every reason to re-use them.
Besides, that's what the Enterprise refit was in TMP.
I'm just resentful that there was exactly one moment where Riker's history with the Titan came into play and it felt token. He chose that ship because of his history with it, but then he doesn't know anyone on board and the ship itself is different. It's fanservice for a ship we were effectively introduced to a year ago in Lower Decks and it's not even that ship.
So..what Glitterboy2098 said basically. They stuck it into Starbase Chopshop and turned the fairly 'meh' Titan into a slick Constitution III-class.
Also, I thought the Enterprise-A was Enterprise-class, not Constitution III-class. I guess you learn something every day.
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So..what Glitterboy2098 said basically. They stuck it into Starbase Chopshop and turned the fairly 'meh' Titan into a slick Constitution III-class.
Also, I thought the Enterprise-A was Enterprise-class, not Constitution III-class. I guess you learn something every day.
Has been confirmed that Constitution II was in fact the refit? I've not heard anything on that sort reference to the refit before.
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My only source is fandom.com, which isn't 100%. But I think they named it the Constitution III in STP Season 3. Which implies there was an earlier Constitution II class.
I'm not re-watching it to confirm though.
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that the refit is the II hasn't been confirmed in official sources yet, but it's been implied by the showmakers in interviews, and the fact that the new ships has the III.
as for "enterprise class", that was a popular belief due to the simulator name in wrath of khan's opening, but in "undiscovered country" we see scotty pouring over plans for the enterprise and it is clearly labelled as constitution class.
since the refit was nearly a new ship (it's been speculated (https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/constitution-refit.htm) that at best all that survived of the original TOS ship was some of the larger structural framework in the saucer and main hull) fans have usually referred to it as an "enterprise subclass", but the idea that it was actually "Constitution II class" fits pretty well. especially if perhaps the II was a retroactive designation and originally it was just a considered a "late flight" refit or something.
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Well... THAT was a hell of a cliffhanger to end the season.
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Gonna be a long wait for series 3, yeah!
At least we have Lower Decks in a couple of weeks
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Remember when shows had 20+ episodes per season, and we didn't have to pay for just the one network to watch them?
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Thanks to free promo codes I have spent exactly zero on watching Season 2 SNW and will spend exactly zero on watching Lower Decks when it comes back.
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$%^& $%^& $%^& the Executives. That cliffhanger is actually PAINFUL. Flipping Painful...
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$%^& $%^& $%^& the Executives. That cliffhanger is actually PAINFUL. Flipping Painful...
That means the writers did a good job.
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$%^& $%^& $%^& the Executives. That cliffhanger is actually PAINFUL. Flipping Painful...
Cliffhangers have actually been a story high point that compels the viewer to stay tuned for the next part. Honestly, that means the executives--and everyone else down the line--have done a good job of executing on an emotionally manipulative trope.
But ******; I was just talking about how Pike being soft (for a Starfleet captain) is part of his character and now here we are facing that head-on. The Scotty thing seems gratuitous, but I'll be damned if it's not one hell of a cliffhanger.
I'm also happy they're portraying the Gorn as more than just monsters. I'm not going to cry over canon or whatever, but some of the Gorn build the ****** starships that travel faster than light, so some of them must be ****** more than the monsters we saw in season one. I'm glad we're making noises in that direction.
And putting La'an and Ortegas on the away team is *chef's kiss*. Those are two of the few likable characters who actually can die so the stakes are a little higher.
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You don't always need 20+ episodes to tell a good story. In fact, I would say some shows are improved by cutting out the filler episodes.
Damon.
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Going be long year once all the new shows dry up. Their still not sorted out the strike. From everything I read, the executives are being really pieces of work this time around.
Even when they're done, their going be at least year out before something descent is written up. If they rush, it will be a mess.
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So I finally watched both the musical episode & the season finale.
I can say I did not care for the musical episode. I generally don't care for musicals in general, so even with a Star Trek verneer, it wasn't any better for me.
The season finale was good, but not overwhelmingly so.
Damon.
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Yeah, on thinking about it:
-A graphic clearly shows the Cayuga saucer being on the Federation side of the border. Why didn't they perform rescue operations immediately? Then there's a Gorn on it so...did the Gorn already violate the treaty? Or is this simply a boo-boo with the graphic?
-How are the Gorn able to build technology as advanced as that of the Federation but they can't see small and large pieces of debris suddenly changing velocity and moving towards the planet?
-Why is there so much ****** blood all over that diner? Did someone ****** explode in there? They boarded up Space Mayberry awful quick.
-On that note, I get that it's a callback to TOS, but are picturesque, mid-20th century town squares really that popular with 23rd century humans?
-Also-also, why is the Cayuga giving free shit to colonists that aren't even in The Federation? I know Starfleet has been called "a homo-sapiens club," but c'mon. I get it's a diplomatic overture, but...why?
-Why are Gorn capital ships so big and in the atmosphere, when all they're going to do is drop shock troops to kill a few thousand colonists, arrange the bodies in a pile, and then drop children into Darwin's pre-K? Maybe they're also affected by their jamming? Star Trek ships don't need to be that big when they're just another polity with conflicting moral values.
-I appreciate that it's a drama and time passes at the speed of plot, but how many times does the Enteprise have to get hit before Captain Pike decides to return fire or retreat?
-It's ironic that this is being compared to "Best of Both Worlds" when the BoBW cliffhanger ended with Riker making a decision that proved he was worthy of being a Captain and Pike, already a Captain, can't make that choice. I get it's his tragic flaw, but it feels...drawn out.
He's going to choose to withdrawal, right? He's gonna run and then we're going to follow Pike on the Enterprise convincing Starfleet to let him go after his people and M'Benga and La'an working their end to get free.
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The Gorn could be shapeshifters, or just their Subrace of the Gorn.
Not like Odo type of shapeshifters.
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The shipyards of the Federation must be in TERRIBLE SHAPE if they have to completely build a new ship from the old one. To me make no sense to me.
Almost like one of their biggest most important shipyards was completely wrecked 20 years earlier
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Almost like one of their biggest most important shipyards was completely wrecked 20 years earlier
That's an answer worthy of a no-prize
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ok took break from binge of intruders...had decided after coming back home two days later to relax and watch second season of strange new worlds....is it my imagination a lot of the episodes took cue from farscape? especially the 7th one?
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ok second season of strange new worlds episode 9 is the most cringe i had to slog through in decades. no disrespect to gilbert and sullivan...and it seems that episode was straight rip off macross DYRL and macross 7 so which writer is macross fan?
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ok second season of strange new worlds episode 9 is the most cringe i had to slog through in decades. no disrespect to gilbert and sullivan...and it seems that episode was straight rip off macross DYRL and macross 7 so which writer is macross fan?
So who played Lynn Minmei in Space Rhaspody? Was the K-Pop band supposed to the Protodevins?
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ok second season of strange new worlds episode 9 is the most cringe i had to slog through in decades. no disrespect to gilbert and sullivan...and it seems that episode was straight rip off macross DYRL and macross 7 so which writer is macross fan?
Frankly it was the best Trek episode since, In the Pale moonlight or some of the top mid-season DS9 episodes. Lightyears beyond anything VOY, TNG and ENT ever had.
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ok second season of strange new worlds episode 9 is the most cringe i had to slog through in decades. no disrespect to gilbert and sullivan...and it seems that episode was straight rip off macross DYRL and macross 7 so which writer is macross fan?
I didn't watch Macross; I only read the novels. So how was Subspace Rhapsody a rip-off of that, aside from the tenuous connection of "science-fiction" and "singing"?
Was there an element of the story about the salvaged alien ship with an impressive melee ability whose hero simped for a torch singer between fighting two-story tall aliens that somehow overlapped with the story about Starfleet officers who encountered an anomaly which caused them to improbably sing and explore the dangers of emotional honesty?
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ok second season of strange new worlds episode 9 is the most cringe i had to slog through in decades. no disrespect to gilbert and sullivan...and it seems that episode was straight rip off macross DYRL and macross 7 so which writer is macross fan?
I liked it immensely.
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I didn't watch Macross; I only read the novels. So how was Subspace Rhapsody a rip-off of that, aside from the tenuous connection of "science-fiction" and "singing"?
Was there an element of the story about the salvaged alien ship with an impressive melee ability whose hero simped for a torch singer between fighting two-story tall aliens that somehow overlapped with the story about Starfleet officers who encountered an anomaly which caused them to improbably sing and explore the dangers of emotional honesty?
yeah, i'm not seeing a connection either, beyond "it has music". the music wasn't being used as a weapon as in macross 7 or DYRL, it was just an enviromental hazard due to the negative space wedgie of the week. if anything it calls back to TNG "Night terrors" (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Night_Terrors_(episode)) where a negative space wedgie causes the crew to be unable to sleep and going insane, and DS9 "Rivals" (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Rivals_(episode)) where the luck manipulating mcguffin was effecting random chance across the entire station. (also DS9 "if wishes were horses" (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/If_Wishes_Were_Horses_(episode)) where a negative space wedgie causes people's imaginations to manifest physically.)
trek has a long history of anomalies, energy beings, alien probes, and so on of altering reality and making people do thing they normally wouldn't. this time it was just music instead of inducing aggression (like in TOS "day of the dove") or madness (TOS "tholian web", TNG "night terrors", etc), inebriation and reduced inhibitions (TOS "the naked time", TNG "the naked now"), etc. an anomaly that makes people sing honestly is a fairly tame example,
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See, my head-canon was that the Klingons spontaneously burst into song, and thought "This isn't half-bad for not being opera..."
The dishonor came when they realized it was a Human-based music form. :cheesy: :laugh:
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So, I never really liked Star-Trek even though a lot of my relatives were Trekkies and watched it religiously; even when I was a kid, watching ST:tNG, they were on an alien-world, and I was all, "That's just the California desert; I've been there". But, some of Star-Trek is interesting, like, the background to The Wrath of Khan. I find a lot of fan-fic and the local-library about ST. The Reign in Hell, a story about Khan looked interesting.
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See, my head-canon was that the Klingons spontaneously burst into song, and thought "This isn't half-bad for not being opera..."
The dishonor came when they realized it was a Human-based music form. :cheesy: :laugh:
I disliked the idea, but the expressions of all involved sold it. The Klingons looking confused and horrified, and Pike just being like "Sorry I asked". That and the way the Klingon commander tried so hard to resist it. "Why have you... Ngyaaaahhh!"
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I disliked the idea, but the expressions of all involved sold it. The Klingons looking confused and horrified, and Pike just being like "Sorry I asked". That and the way the Klingon commander tried so hard to resist it. "Why have you... Ngyaaaahhh!"
Yeah, 100%. The acting is what really makes the scene work and flow properly, and in general the whole episode. "Subspace Rhapsody" is an odd episode, but the quality of the execution is how it manages to stick the landing.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_lYqGQ7iXk
Star Trek New Voyages: To Serve All My Days (2006)
aged wine is sometimes good, sometimes bad. I first watched this episode probably a year after it was first released and I will admit, the cringe hasn't improved in some respects, in terms of acting. The story, however, was at least on par with some of the average TOS episodes? certain the visuals are still very close to calling them excellent, even today.
Watching it today, something occurred to me. At the very end, Elvis-Kirk and Ambassador Morgan retort about the fact that "they might not find out who else was involved in the Esterion incident" as well as 'enemies within the Federation', almost as if there was something implied. Was Elvis-Kirk implying that maybe an ambassador was involved? I will admit that nothing can be inferred from what we see of Ambassador Morgan being nothing more than a 'Good guy' but why else would Kargh attack the Ambassador's shuttle at the beginning?
Spoilers in use only because of the possibility of someone never seeing any of the fan films before
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The Moopsy might the greatest thing to ever be in Star Trek.
Also, apparently the first Very Short Trek, the collection of new animated shorts in the TAS style goes up at some point today, presumably as part of Star Trek Day.
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I could not find those short treks, but then I wasn't too interested in Star Trek Day.
It's hard to get excited about a solid series like Lower Decks creating another series which is solid, but that's what's happening.
"Good show is good. News at 11."
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Looks like Very Short Treks are on YouTube at the moment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bij0nWXBKHI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bij0nWXBKHI)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj0plbE8LYE&ab_channel=JTVFX
Blundered across this, its very good!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj0plbE8LYE&ab_channel=JTVFX
Blundered across this, its very good!
JTVFX... one of a few makers of fan speculation and back story filler (my favorite is folks who redue ship scenes from TMP era movies)
actually THIS video makes it the DIFINATE Head-cannon description of W359... It's THAT good.
Mind you there are some cringe moments but I think they are intentional from a IP perspective and not just the limits of fandom action...
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That was pretty good.
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This maybe not the best place to get a answer but i'm gonna ask....
one thing i'd want to nitpick is the very limited views used of Adm Hanson (because there is little to be seen of him in BoBW I & II) but I wonder...
HOW difficult would it be to CGI cut the actor into existing scenes from Star Trek, using visuals he did from previous works he did (this presumes that you could be allowed to do it in the first place) then edit those imagery into a TNG setting? I'm thinking deepfake amounts of effort here... maybe even deepfake him into TNG scenes?
I mean, if anyone can deepfake someone into something else for pr0n or propaganda (the very edge of why deepfake is dangerous), could you deepfake for... good reasons?
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This maybe not the best place to get a answer but i'm gonna ask....
one thing i'd want to nitpick is the very limited views used of Adm Hanson (because there is little to be seen of him in BoBW I & II) but I wonder...
HOW difficult would it be to CGI cut the actor into existing scenes from Star Trek, using visuals he did from previous works he did (this presumes that you could be allowed to do it in the first place) then edit those imagery into a TNG setting? I'm thinking deepfake amounts of effort here... maybe even deepfake him into TNG scenes?
I mean, if anyone can deepfake someone into something else for pr0n or propaganda (the very edge of why deepfake is dangerous), could you deepfake for... good reasons?
sure Movies have already done it, proably the best example I can give is Rogue One, where Peter Cushing was "ressurected". there was a LIIIITLE bit of uncanny vally there but over all, it was impressive, and then you had a young carrie fisher is same movie
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I read and have this superb fanon PDF called "We have Engaged the Borg" that's all about the build up to Wolf 359 and the battle itself etc as well as personnel involved, the politics before, during and after and its superb.
It was done by - https://www.wolf359project.com/ but bots reared their head and issued strikes due to the use of stills from movies, so they're getting new art before releasing the PDF again.
you can read it here
https://archiveofourown.org/works/49418989?view_full_work=true
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Check out the latest Trek-related comics offering from IDW:
https://trekmovie.com/2023/09/21/review-idw-adds-a-new-chapter-to-jean-luc-picards-legacy-in-star-trek-picards-academy-1/ (https://trekmovie.com/2023/09/21/review-idw-adds-a-new-chapter-to-jean-luc-picards-legacy-in-star-trek-picards-academy-1/)
Now, if the upcoming Starfleet Academy series were going to be based on THIS, then it would definitely be something I could get behind.
Cheers,
Gabe
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That's weird...I thought the academy thing was suppose to be set in Discovery's current timeline.
I guess that was a rumor.
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There's nothing to indicate that this comic is related to the Academy TV show.
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I read and have this superb fanon PDF called "We have Engaged the Borg" that's all about the build up to Wolf 359 and the battle itself etc as well as personnel involved, the politics before, during and after and its superb.
It was done by - https://www.wolf359project.com/ but bots reared their head and issued strikes due to the use of stills from movies, so they're getting new art before releasing the PDF again.
you can read it here
https://archiveofourown.org/works/49418989?view_full_work=true
That was amazing. Thank you very much for sharing it!
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That's weird...I thought the academy thing was suppose to be set in Discovery's current timeline.
It will be. I was just saying that if the Academy show *were* going to be set during Picard's days as a student there, rather than following on from DISCO, it would win me over more quickly.
cheers,
Gabe
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Academy will have Tilly, so that is enough to win me over twice on tuesday. :)
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This dropped on Youtube....Star Trek: very Short Treks (https://youtu.be/LPCGkHjsK9M?si=ZYhwQfmpag1lrnB0)
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Halfway through the latest series of _Lower Decks_...no comments thus far?
cheers,
Gabe
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Not showing here (yet) in Europe :(
Stupid SkyShowtime. It was supposed to be a merger of Paramount+ and whatever in Europe, but Lower Deck has been pulled from it. (Strange new Works and Prodigy is there).
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Halfway through the latest series of _Lower Decks_...no comments thus far?
It's good. Hard to say much else.
- T'Lyn is a perfect addition to the cast.
- It makes sense in-universe and for the characters they'd be promoted after all this time.
- The adventures are still the same, but the challenges match maturing characters.
- I always appreciate when they break up the Boimler/Mariner and Tendi/Rutherford paradigm and this season has been great for it.
- The gags are still top-notch
- Moopsy, Boilmer getting a room by the bussard collectors, Vexilon being a benevolent AI, and everything from "Twovix" have been fun.
- Kayshon Naruto runs.
No notes. Please make more.
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Not showing here (yet) in Europe :(
Stupid SkyShowtime. It was supposed to be a merger of Paramount+ and whatever in Europe, but Lower Deck has been pulled from it. (Strange new Works and Prodigy is there).
Amazon Prime only has series 1 and 2 now, tis frustrating.
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Some of us are poor, can't afford to get subscription service. :undecided:
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I think Im going to binge watch Season 4 of Lower Decks.
But just need to remember to lower the bar on my expectations on the show.
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I've had Paramount+ for exactly zero dollars since 4 September 2023.
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Modern streaming services really have changed the way we all hang around the water cooler, huh?
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Modern streaming services really have changed the way we all hang around the water cooler, huh?
Post covid, even THAT is discouraged... :grin:
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It's good. Hard to say much else.
- T'Lyn is a perfect addition to the cast.
Fully agree, but the way that they've used her character isn't quite what I expected. The points of her development and interactions with the other main crewmembers somehow seem out of sequence, like the revelation of her backstory on the Vulcan ship, which should've been in episode 2 (IMO), which would make some of her decisions (like not sending her report on Orions to Vulcan) more understandable. Otherwise she's been used mostly as the straight (wo)man to the more excitable characters, with no evidence of the determined attitude and persistence at problem solving that got her in trouble with the Vulcan crew (but that should endear her to a Starfleet captain). She ought to be the one that figures who's behind the mystery ship and how to defeat it.
Anyone want to take any guesses as to who's behind the mystery ship? Think it's another Badmiral project, or actual non-Federation aliens this time? The approach of neutralizing the target's ability to fight or even flee before destroying it seems very Breen IMO.
- The gags are still top-notch
- Moopsy, Boilmer getting a room by the bussard collectors, Vexilon being a benevolent AI, and everything from "Twovix" have been fun.
And the revelation that Tendi is essentially a Mob princess. :grin:
I wonder if Boimler will at some point relate his near-death experience and encounter with the Black Mountain and Space Koala to Rutherford and/or Shaxs?
"Twovix" was disappointing in that it had nothing to say about ethically resolving the Tuvix conundrum, but instead played it for laughs and inverted the problem by basically having T'Illups go psycho in a way that more or less neutrailzed audience sympathy for him/her/it and all the other merged characters; if you think about their actions in the name of "survival", what they did was only slightly less bad than (and indeed, somewhat akin to) Borg assimilation.
cheers,
Gabe
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Looks like Very Short Treks are on YouTube at the moment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bij0nWXBKHI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bij0nWXBKHI)
Yeah. And they're mostly...not funny. The first three in particular are not so much a celebration of Trek as a subversion of it.
Best so far was the one by Prodigy writer Aaron J. Waltke, combining the different animation styles like _Drawn Together_ (however briefly).
Although, I do have to say, ST:ENT actually looks good in the TAS style. If they ever wanted to get the cast back together for a (very) belated fifth season, that's obviously how they should do it--like the original TAS, but set on Archer's Enterprise.
cheers,
Gabe
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Anyone want to take any guesses as to who's behind the mystery ship? Think it's another Badmiral project, or actual non-Federation aliens this time? The approach of neutralizing the target's ability to fight or even flee before destroying it seems very Breen IMO.
My feeling is it's Badgey, in the Peanut Hamper episode in series 3 there's a lingering shot of Rutherford's implant in the debris field from the battle in the series 1 finale and you see it light up, suggesting he's still alive in there.
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Yeah. And they're mostly...not funny. The first three in particular are not so much a celebration of Trek as a subversion of it.
Best so far was the one by Prodigy writer Aaron J. Waltke, combining the different animation styles like _Drawn Together_ (however briefly).
Although, I do have to say, ST:ENT actually looks good in the TAS style. If they ever wanted to get the cast back together for a (very) belated fifth season, that's obviously how they should do it--like the original TAS, but set on Archer's Enterprise.
cheers,
Gabe
MAKE THIS HAPPEN!!!! Everyone is STILL ALIVE (I think)... this CAN still happen. IT. Must. Happen.
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Warn me about the WALL o' TEXT next time please.
Felt assaulted for a pair of seconds.
Thanks,
TT
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MAKE THIS HAPPEN!!!! Everyone is STILL ALIVE (I think)... this CAN still happen. IT. Must. Happen.
Be careful, I also thought DISCO looked good in that style too :tongue: :evil:
How about a prequel series set on Prime Georgiou's Shenzhou prior to the Battle of the Binary Stars? (just because I want more of the wise, benevolent Prime Georgiou as opposed to the amoral, borderline psycho Evil Mirror Emperor Georgiou)
They can keep the uniforms but otherwise use it as an opportunity to clean up DISCO and make it more consistent with the rest of the Trek universe a la SNW.
(And get Saru out of that silly 32nd Century uniform! Why is that even there?)
cheers,
Gabe
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(And get Saru out of that silly 32nd Century uniform! Why is that even there?)
It's parodying the sometimes inaccurate costumes on characters in TAS, usually stuff like uniforms changing colour between scenes.
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My feeling is it's Badgey, in the Peanut Hamper episode in series 3 there's a lingering shot of Rutherford's implant in the debris field from the battle in the series 1 finale and you see it light up, suggesting he's still alive in there.
It looks like Badgey will be back next episode, so we'll see if there's that connection.
There's one other principal suspect I can think of: Boimler's transporter clone who was recruited by Section 31. Note that at least from what we've seen on the show so far, the mystery ship hasn't yet attacked any Federation-aligned ships. And it does look more like a buffed-out Federation shuttlecraft than anything else.
cheers,
Gabe
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Another solid episode. I'm sorry to all the Rutherford/Tendi shippers though. It's a great use of the assumption that "Rom is incompetent" to swerve into the "Rom/Leeta dream couple" bit.
Crazy implications for the universe and props to Captain Freeman.
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There's one other principal suspect I can think of: Boimler's transporter clone who was recruited by Section 31. Note that at least from what we've seen on the show so far, the mystery ship hasn't yet attacked any Federation-aligned ships. And it does look more like a buffed-out Federation shuttlecraft than anything else.
given its apparent size in the flyby of the Ferengi ship, it seems to be a lot larger than a shuttle though. while the windows on ships aren't always a good guide to size, that ferengi ship had to have at least 4-5 decks. and was probably defiant sized, even if it shared a shape with the ENT era ferengi shuttlecraft. the mystery ship seemed to be about half the size of the ferengi ship.
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I don't know what I did to make Youtube keep recommending these decade old fanmade skits, but I'm glad it happened. They're basically PSAs about how to avoid logical fallacies, done in the style of the Animated Series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_fOyxk7DdU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_fOyxk7DdU)
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Prodigy has been picked up by Netflix. Series 1 will show up on there soon-ish with series 2 following:
https://gizmodo.com/star-trek-prodigy-season-2-netflix-paramount-streaming-1850918603
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Good news, hopefully gets a third out of it
I wonder how Paramount execs feel going cap in hand to Nexflix? They took everything off there for their big streaming moves now Paramount+ is toiling towards insignificance
It's not just them I think there are way too many streaming services I've tightened my belt and only have a couple now money just doesn't go as far anymore
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It's not just them I think there are way too many streaming services I've tightened my belt and only have a couple now money just doesn't go as far anymore
i keep three. i pay for netflix, i pay for Amazon prime (have since before it was a streaming service, but i get a big discount due to some special deals so i keep it), and the whole family shares my younger brother's disney account.
but i agree. there are too many streaming services now. netflix was successful early on because it was a good alternative to cable/satellite, at a lower price. now if you want to get diverse options you have to pay as much or more to get half a dozen different corporate streaming services.
i think we're starting to see the contraction of the streaming bubble, as the various studios all realize that running their own services is too pricey at too slim a profit when you can;t piggyback off other studio's material to attract customers.
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And it really helps if you play 'The Game' and rather than sustain a subscription to a bunch all at once, just pick and choose which ones you want.
Star Trek Lower Decks on? Pay for Paramount Plus for a month then cancel it and quite often they'll bribe you with free or discounted months to stay and send promotion codes for free or discounted months.
Netflix announces what is coming and going for stuff on their service.
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I found some of the Star Trek shows (older ones) are appearing on Pluto TV which is ad funded streaming service (aka its TV).
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I believe Paramount have some level of share in Pluto, when people complained about Discovery being pulled from Netflix, series 4 was put on Pluto in territories it was active in and Paramount Plus had not launched in.
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so in the latest lower decks.. we find out that Mariner graduated alongside Sito Jaxa, meaning she was in the academy in 2368! and she fought in the Dominion war from the start!
she's got to be about a decade older than the rest of the group.
edit: so i did some basic math..lower decks is set in 2380, possible 2381-ish by the 4th season. TNG "the first duty" takes place in 2368, 12 years earlier. if Mariner joined at the earliest age possible, 16, and only took the typical 4 year course of study, graduating around the same time as Sito Jaxa would put her at 32. so she's probably more like 5-7 years older than the others. if she graduated with Jaxa, in 2370, that means she would have been in starfleet 3 years before the dominion war kicked off. though it is liekly mariner was a year or two behind her, helping to explain the hero worship a bit. much like how Nog looked up to Red Squad.
also final confirmation that Nick Locarno isn't the same person as Tom Paris.
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I think most of us suspected that Mariner's relationship with Starfleet was colored by the Dominion War, but holy ******. ***** ****** holy ****** ****** that makes so much sense and ******.
I guess there's finally a link to the episode this whole series is named for.
With the guys being promoted and the episode last week about them drifting apart, I feel that we're nearing the natural end of this show. It's been an amazing ride.
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sadly that circumstance is purely OOC: If only they could swing that without triggering Royalities to the TNG episode screen writer. :/
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I think most of us suspected that Mariner's relationship with Starfleet was colored by the Dominion War, but holy ******. ***** ****** holy ****** ****** that makes so much sense and ******.
I guess there's finally a link to the episode this whole series is named for.
With the guys being promoted and the episode last week about them drifting apart, I feel that we're nearing the natural end of this show. It's been an amazing ride.
we have one more season for sure. which is good, because there are some hanging plot threads from earlier seasons that need tying up.
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Could it have been a mistake? That's really big thing she skipped rank and stayed Ensign for years beyond normal Ensign would be. While it's fiction, usually they discharge someone from say the US Navy if they don't advance up the rank since their not making any progress. I do recall number times that she said she didn't want to be promoted. So if really not typo/boo boo in writers...it would make sense. Still don't see how Star Fleet would allow it.
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I feel like the narrative has been dedicated to the idea that Mariner has been an ensign for a very long time. One of her Academy peers is now a Captain. She served in the Dominion War and was posted to DS9. She's got the knowledge and experience you'd expect of a Lieutenant Commander (at least). Season one is clear that she has some deep-seated emotional issues and sees promotion as anathema.
Starfleet isn't the US Navy. Picard still being a lieutenant in the alternate universe shown in "Tapestry" demonstrates the the "up or out" attitude of the modern US Military--which an obscure TNG episode called "Encounter at Farpoint" shows Starfleet doesn't exactly truck with in general--might not apply.
Mariner isn't at risk of being drummed out because of her time in rate, but because of the behavior required to keep herself there. She's at the bleeding edge of staying in Starfleet, but only because she shows the initiative of a senior officer without demonstrating the responsibility of one.
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Could it have been a mistake? That's really big thing she skipped rank and stayed Ensign for years beyond normal Ensign would be. While it's fiction, usually they discharge someone from say the US Navy if they don't advance up the rank since their not making any progress. I do recall number times that she said she didn't want to be promoted. So if really not typo/boo boo in writers...it would make sense. Still don't see how Star Fleet would allow it.
OK, lets do some FASAnomics for Star Fleet.
First, you need a head count of the fleet (a statistical impossibility until the show runners or even book writers try (or allowed) to tackle.
Second, you need the rules of Star Fleet. Things like 'How long before you get a chance at promotion?' 'How long before you automatically get promoted' Is there High Year Tenure in Star Fleet, etc'
If you can figure that out, there's your answer :D
But If you ask me.... because the NCC numbers are already close if not passed 80000 by the Dominion War, plus Star Fleet's wide variety of ships in the actual fleet, variety of bases, space facilities, etc... its safe to say that Star Fleet has many examples of Pantless Edward... lots of Excelsior-space frames and no end of billets...
What were we talking about?
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in TNG 'Tapestry', the alternate timeline Q allows Picard to see, where picard didn't take risks like picking a fight with naussicans, we see he went from ensign to only a Jr LT after 42 years of service in starfleet. in the words of Troi and Riker, Lt picard was "Your performance records have always been good. You're thorough… dedicated…"
"Steady, reliable… punctual." but he'd never progressed because "If you want to get ahead, you have to take chances… stand out in a crowd, get noticed!".
and just because Q was involved doesn't mean that the normal rules hot changed.. Picard himself, still having the mind of the 'real' picard, didn't find anything odd about the idea of a person staying at Jr LT rank for decades.
so clearly "up or out" does not apply to starfleet. you just tend to get ambitious people going for command track and the higher ranks.
honestly, it might be a concession to the longer lived species.. a vulcan might well have a career spanning a full century, and the federation seems to make strides to not discriminate based on species. so promotions being offered entirely on merit and performance instead of time in grade would fit. and we know that you can turn down promotions to a certain limit, from Riker and Rutherford's examples.
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Oh, and it was another great episode of a fantastic series, Boimler's comments about a certain doctor cracked me up.
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Cryyy!
Still no new season TLD here :( :( :/
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Could it have been a mistake? That's really big thing she skipped rank and stayed Ensign for years beyond normal Ensign would be. While it's fiction, usually they discharge someone from say the US Navy if they don't advance up the rank since their not making any progress. I do recall number times that she said she didn't want to be promoted. So if really not typo/boo boo in writers...it would make sense. Still don't see how Star Fleet would allow it.
If you go back to TNG it's pretty normal for Starfleet officers to stay at lower ranks for most if not all of their careers if they are competent at their job. In the Q episode where Q show's Picard his life if he hadn't ended up with an artificial heart had him stuck at Lieutenant in that timeline. Lt. Barclay is another example. Starfleet isn't strictly a military service in the same vein as the US Navy even if it fills a lot of the same roles. Pretty sure there are more examples of this particularly in the TNG series.
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In a culture where materialism isn't the main goal, (being a utopian one) having a job / career doing what you enjoy the most seems to be the most fulfilling thing over all. Ranks seem more to indicate whose you defer to when a problem crops up because they more than likely have the knowledge to solve it consistently.
Everyone seems hyper competent at thier jobs and there isn't the the trope of the green 2nd LT leading the veteran squad into a death trap at all in Star Trek that I can recall.
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It's probable that nobody would care if Mariner remained an ensign if it wasn't for the pedigree of her parents and the promise she showed at the academy.
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Could it have been a mistake? That's really big thing she skipped rank and stayed Ensign for years beyond normal Ensign would be. While it's fiction, usually they discharge someone from say the US Navy if they don't advance up the rank since their not making any progress. I do recall number times that she said she didn't want to be promoted. So if really not typo/boo boo in writers...it would make sense. Still don't see how Star Fleet would allow it.
Starfleet isn't the US navy. There is no "up or out" policy/mentality. how many promotions did Riker turn down to stay on Enterprise?
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Starfleet isn't the US navy. There is no "up or out" policy/mentality. how many promotions did Riker turn down to stay on Enterprise?
I would say, when TOS was written it was more US Navy than it was by TNG. It's who writing it, scifi writers with book background and former World War II/Korean War vets.
Writers will have less of a military background as far a large size of the pie of writers I suspect now. Thus why things are bit loosey goosey as far standards go.
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I've never found, "They were trying to do X, but were bad at it" as an argument that they were trying to do X.
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I would say, when TOS was written it was more US Navy than it was by TNG. It's who writing it, scifi writers with book background and former World War II/Korean War vets.
Writers will have less of a military background as far a large size of the pie of writers I suspect now. Thus why things are bit loosey goosey as far standards go.
There's a quote from Roddenbury somewhere that he based Starfleet on the US Coast Guard, so just mildly military but still dashing adventure types.
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I think most of us suspected that Mariner's relationship with Starfleet was colored by the Dominion War, but holy ******. ***** ****** holy ****** ****** that makes so much sense and ******.
I guess there's finally a link to the episode this whole series is named for.
With the guys being promoted and the episode last week about them drifting apart, I feel that we're nearing the natural end of this show. It's been an amazing ride.
Levy the conspiracy theorist seems to be about the same generation as Mariner and has also been stuck at the same rank for a long time. I wonder if he had similar experiences as her and that's what pushed him down the path he took.
cheers,
Gabe
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Solid wrap-up. I always believed Locarno was a redeemable character, but as someone left a military academy, I get that they went another way with it.
My jaw dropped when the recap covered the genesis device. I recognized it in the episode they brought it up, but brushed it off as a routine callback/WMD. But it was a Chekov's...genesis device.
Also, props to Boimler for getting the recognition to captain the ship for a few minutes. Every arc in this series is great.
This series is meat and potatoes storytelling with a bit of cleverness thrown in and I adore it.
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here is hoping they'll wrap up a few of the hanging plot elements from the other seasons..
we have a boimler clone in section 31
someone empowered the pakleds, then arranged to have pakled planet blown up.
someone had to have given locarno the resources needed to build Nova One, and the station and shield at the Detrion system.
Nova Fleet is now leaderless and in hiding.
i'm hoping that all of these will tie in together in season 5. mostly because i'm worried that it might not get a season 6.
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So, given people are wondering about Mariner's career, we can infer a few things at this point. Lower Decks series 3 and 4 both take place in 2381, and The First Duty took place in 2368 so the "thirteen years before" card lines up correctly. If Mariner was a first year cadet then, she probably graduated from Academy in 2371 or 2372. We know she served on DS9 while Worf was there, so she was there for at least some of 2372-2375. It's likely her first assignment out of Academy was either DS9 itself or one of the ships assigned to its defense. We also know she served on the Atlantis, the Quito was her last assignment before being transferred to the Cerritos in 2380, and she served on five ships before ending up there, so there are two or even three other ships she was on in that timeframe. Presumably one of these was the Oberth she "crashed".
Sito Jaxa died in 2370, so presumably this shook her while still at Academy, and was the root cause of her behavioural issues after she graduated.
We also know that if Amina Ramsay was recently promoted to Captain before her temporary assignment to the Cerritos it took her about 9 years to climb the ranks. By comparison it took Jim Kirk 11 years from graduation to promotion to Captain and assignment to the Enterprise.
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We also know that if Amina Ramsay was recently promoted to Captain before her temporary assignment to the Cerritos it took her about 9 years to climb the ranks. By comparison it took Jim Kirk 11 years from graduation to promotion to Captain and assignment to the Enterprise.
and Picard became captain of the stargazer after 6 years. (and then stayed its captain for 22 years. which is impressive)
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My big wonder is what triggered Mariner,
To suddenly go backwards and to do it so hard, what set her off 11 ish years after Sitos death?
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My big wonder is what triggered Mariner,
To suddenly go backwards and to do it so hard, what set her off 11 ish years after Sitos death?
In the past, as soon as she started acting up, she would get busted back to ensign. This time, she was faced with a commander who resolved NOT to do that no matter how hard she pushed, but it didn't seem to sink in and she just kept going harder until it began to border on a death wish.
cheers,
Gabe
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she talks about the dominion war being part of the reason that she decided that promotion was a bad idea. that she never wanted to be the person giving orders to send other people into lethal situations.
given what we see in DS9, i suspect it wouldn't be hard to imagine the sort of situations she saw, especially since we know she was involved in some grey ops stuff with K'orin durign that time. suggesting she might have gotten stuck on a ship or world behind the lines and had to watch her friends die trying to pull off missions, or gotten assigned to some outpost and had to hold it against jemhadar assaults (like with the siege of AR-558), or even just been on ships which got pounded in battle with much of the crew dying.
then the war ended.. and that trauma led her into self-destrutive spirals whenever she started getting the promotions she didn't want.
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and Picard became captain of the stargazer after 6 years. (and then stayed its captain for 22 years. which is impressive)
And in season one of TNG, they establish Tryla Scott as being the youngest captain ever in Starfleet. It's a bell curve and some people are on the ends.
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(https://i.imgur.com/isif7tR.png)
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Fix the size, please.
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ok catching up with st lower decks season 4...
and i have to say this we definetly need more moopsiee
ohhh and moopsiee plushies
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A few fans have made Moopsy plushies already, one even put voice chips in them.
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Well...this certainly sheds some light on why season 2 of Picard was such a clusterf--k:
https://trekmovie.com/2024/03/09/picard-season-2-was-rewritten-after-paramount-deemed-it-too-star-trek-says-ep/ (https://trekmovie.com/2024/03/09/picard-season-2-was-rewritten-after-paramount-deemed-it-too-star-trek-says-ep/)
Now if somebody would be so forthcoming about season 3...
Cheers,
Gabe
(Who maintains that season 1 was the best of the three... even if that's not saying much)
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I feel like Series 1's biggest problems were not knowing what to do with the Artifact, and a messy ending. I rewatched it in the run-in to series 3 and liked it quite a bit. Series 3 was fun, but very much lacking in substance.
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I don't need much light shined (shone?) on why a bad series was bad. Everyone wants to blame the studio, but Picard failed with a gusto that couldn't be managed with just one part of the production process.
I actually respected Seasons 1 and 2 for doing their own things. I would have liked them a little bit if they'd had the "telling a story un-terribly" ability of Season 3.
Also, my dad got one of those things for his TV that gives him 50 channels that are just one show on loop 24/7. His first episode of Lower Decks was "A Mathematically Perfect Redemption." :undecided:
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Well...this certainly sheds some on why season 2 of Picard was such a clusterf--k:
https://trekmovie.com/2024/03/09/picard-season-2-was-rewritten-after-paramount-deemed-it-too-star-trek-says-ep/ (https://trekmovie.com/2024/03/09/picard-season-2-was-rewritten-after-paramount-deemed-it-too-star-trek-says-ep/)
Now if somebody would be so forthcoming about season 3...
Cheers,
Gabe
(Who maintains that season 1 was the best of the three... even if that's not saying much)
Cheers,
Too Star Trek!
Who are these people?
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Too Star Trek!
Who are these people?
Same people who were in charge of CBS who kicked off Discovery with guy in charge got Trek mixed up with Star Wars. Idiots who never seen darn thing.
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So instead of making it "less Star Trek" they made it "no Star Trek"
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Too Star Trek!
Who are these people?
the replacements for the execs who thought you could do a prequel series set in the 2200's by recycling the uniforms, sets, and CGI ship models from the TNG films.
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So I picked up Paramount+ for a couple months to watch some Champion's League games, which has been fun. Side benefit is I was finally able to watch Strange New Worlds and Picard.
Strange New Worlds S1 and S2 I loved. Really liked the different genre for every episode. I even thought the musical episode was fun, even if it isn't my thing.
Picard S1 is only ok for me. I really loved TNG, but Picard is missing some beats I can't quite put my finger on. Anyway, glad to get caught up on some Star Trek.
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Not sure why, Paramount+ isn't doing so good. So Lower Decks is being canceled after this 5th Season gets out. A successful and less expensive series is being canned.
I think due to merges, but I have heard it because the numbers of people watching the show.
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Its just weird how a Cartoon became on of the top in New Star Trek. I liked Lower Decks more than many of the other shows and I never watched Rick and Morty.
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Its just weird how a Cartoon became on of the top in New Star Trek. I liked Lower Decks more than many of the other shows and I never watched Rick and Morty.
It's been one hell of a show. Top-tier, which is the last thing I expected from it.
I like Rick and Morty, but it feels like that was just the pitch they used to get one of the best Star Treks produced.
That said, I kind of felt like season five would be the last, even before this news. The characters are getting arced out and every great story has an end.
As for Paramount+, folks would subscribe even if they just had access to the library. The problem isn't that it's not profitable; it that it isn't profitable/growing enough. That's obvious; when you're the sixth or seventh imitator to the incredibly obvious business model Netflix created and even Netflix is hitting the top of their growth bell curve.
I really loved TNG, but Picard is missing some beats I can't quite put my finger on.
I can. If you want.
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I just heard that John Trimble passed away earlier today. Along with his wife Bjo, they were a beating heart at the centre of early Trek fandom, and they organised the letter-writing campaign that got TOS renewed for series 3.