Cheapest ‘Decent’ Warship

[Tyler Jorgensson]

(Not related to the upcoming Warship Redux III, I swear)

So the idea is to produce a cheap warship (any weight, class, abilities) to fill out a fleet. We’re talking like close to the lowest price for a Warship of approximately four billion but not ‘cheap’ enough to be considered a boondoggle or failure. Something that can probably fight something its size or bully smaller things. Something like what the Merlin was meant to be for Militias, or mass produced swarms kinda mechs (think like Bug Mechs for warships). Idk how to really describe it lol.

I really just want to see what people can come up with. Optimize cheap but effective!

(Can be effective in swarms of warships)

[Retry]

I doubt you can get any real Warship for less than four billion.  The cheapest Warships that get close to that are things like the Nighthawk, which is a hair over 4 billion, and that's just a surveillance platform.

[FastConcentrate8]

(Not related to the upcoming Warship Redux III, I swear)

Suspicion

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Suspicion

LOL No I'm serious: while one plan would be to spam hundreds of ships of said design... its like Plan F (for failure) to buy some time until the next turn. I have a more comprehensive turn plan.

I doubt you can get any real Warship for less than four billion.  The cheapest Warships that get close to that are things like the Nighthawk, which is a hair over 4 billion, and that's just a surveillance platform.

I'll edit that. But my point is cheap... like Backwater Periphery Power (Outworlds,  Taurian, or Aurigan) gets a Warship yard. Quicksell tries to go legit with a Warship class despite having no experience. Chameleon. Not Primitive/Retro  tech but the tech right above it. Things like Pintos, Vigilant's, Makos and the like. Stuff that can be spammed out and still be somewhat effective. Something like a Sylvester class but ... slightly better. If Mercer Ravannion was a SLDF High Admiral. (I’m running out of bad analogies and I usually have plenty lol)

EDIT: Think of the Fletcher class Destroyer of US WWII era. They built a total of 175 from a dozen yards in four years (yes wartime conditions). But they were very effective for what they were.

Its kinda hard to describe but ill post one version of something I'm looking at tomorrow

[marcussmythe]

If you avoid LF Batteries and Docking Collars, cost is very nearly linear with mass, barring a few systems that will blip it some (Large Naval Scanners, NGauss).  Linear, that is, with a large flat buy in for your compact core.  Small cheap ships give a lot less combat power than the same CBills in big ones.  But maybe you need raw hull count more than total combat power.

Since ‘cutting holes in the side of the ship to let fighters out’ is apparently a nigh arcane art, strangely favoring more, smaller ships to get more doors, and since fighters are dirt cheap for combat power, my ‘not thinking this through at all’ guess is light, fast carriers.  You can skimp on SI to save tonnage as they are never intended to get shot at - using their high thrust to avoid enemy gun range, and ‘slinging’ loads of fighters at enemies before maneuvering around for pickup.  Its really a kinda insane strategy, but the kind of asymmetrical  high risk weirdness 3rd rate power might indulge in.  Use em as distributed raiders that never get close to the enemy, launching fighter strikes while avoiding direct confrontation.

[Daryk]

Sounds like the OP is describing the Vincent...

[Lagrange]

Since ‘cutting holes in the side of the ship to let fighters out’ is apparently a nigh arcane art, strangely favoring more, smaller ships to get more doors, and since fighters are dirt cheap for combat power, my ‘not thinking this through at all’ guess is light, fast carriers.  You can skimp on SI to save tonnage as they are never intended to get shot at - using their high thrust to avoid enemy gun range, and ‘slinging’ loads of fighters at enemies before maneuvering around for pickup.  Its really a kinda insane strategy, but the kind of asymmetrical  high risk weirdness 3rd rate power might indulge in.  Use em as distributed raiders that never get close to the enemy, launching fighter strikes while avoiding direct confrontation.

This is potentially quite good.  An example of the style is here for the modest price of 6.6B with 160 ASF+ 80 smallcraft.  A large NCSS is the only expensive "extra".  Compare with a Thera which is more of a combo battleship+carrier for 23.4B.

[Dragon Cat]

Sounds like the OP is describing the Vincent...

I was thinking the Lola III Destroyer it's described as a tough inexpensive design

[Daryk]

Thanks for the clarification... that ups the cap a bit.

[AlphaMirage]

You could even go lower to the Lola II that was used as the M-5 drone (just fix those fuel lines) or its predecessor Lola I with its cannons. I personally think the Carrack is a halfway decent choice off the shelf although it is slightly more expensive. The problem is that almost 3.6 billion is just for the compact core (and sarna is wrong about the modern MegaMek calculated costs) so you don't have a lot of room for addition with an under 4 billion design.

I present however a half sized Lola I which comes in at 5 billion and is adequate for light patrol duty and blowing up some PWS or small carrier assaults. It doesn't have a grav deck or drop collar but will probably just be moving around at 1g anyhow. Almost 9% of its mass is reserved for stores and modification the most popular of which are additional crew quarters for aerospace maintainers or life support space (upgrading all built in quarters to 'luxury' grade uses up 400 tons) for the regular crew as the standard is, like the original Lola I, cramped for its 243 crew leading shuttle crews preferring their own built in quarters because at least they can control the temperature and it smells better since they can air it out while groundside. The pilots and small crew also have it slightly better in their compartment leading to resentment with the Warship's crew. Its flight wing is small with only a fighter squadron to escort the dozen small craft as they take on supplies from fleet stores or support ground operations.

Lola I Destroyer (Shrunken, Modernized)
Mass: 340,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3055
Mass: 340,000
Battle Value: 59,033
Cost: 5,056,485,840 C-bills

Fuel: 5,230 tons (13,075)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 9
Heat Sinks: 1,850
Structural Integrity: 50

Armor
    Nose: 31
    Fore Sides: 27/27
    Aft Sides: 24/24
    Aft: 17

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (6)             2 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (12)        2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (30306.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    280 rounds of NAC/10 ammunition (140 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 0
Escape Pods: 20
Life Boats: 20
Crew:  39 officers, 92 enlisted/non-rated, 40 gunners, 72 bay personnel      

Notes: Mounts 300 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                         Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                   Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (242 Heat)
4 Large Laser                32   3(32)   3(32)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
3 Naval Laser 45             210  14(135) 14(135) 14(135) 14(135)  Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (242 Heat)
4 Large Laser                32   3(32)   3(32)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
3 Naval Laser 45             210  14(135) 14(135) 14(135) 14(135)  Capital Laser
RBS/LBS (242 Heat)
4 Large Laser                32   3(32)   3(32)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
7 Naval Autocannon (NAC/10)  210  70(700) 70(700) 70(700)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/10 Ammo (140 shots)
ARS/ALS (242 Heat)
4 Large Laser                32   3(32)   3(32)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
3 Naval Laser 45             210  14(135) 14(135) 14(135) 14(135)  Capital Laser
Aft (242 Heat)
4 Large Laser                32   3(32)   3(32)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
3 Naval Laser 45             210  14(135) 14(135) 14(135) 14(135)  Capital Laser

[Daryk]

It has almost enough NL/45s... ;)

[AlphaMirage]

It has almost enough NL/45s... ;)

I have done the math, hitting fighters, particularly fighters being evasive, with capital lasers is really hard actually outside of very short range (that is fighter weapon engagement ranges) so you don't actually get much by bracketing down to 4 vs AAA mode, 140 will still wreck almost any fighter. Compromises also needed to be made for such a small warship. You still have a mighty cannonade for ceremonies (imagine a 21 gun salute from this Lola I, Lola Adelaide knew what she was doing), taking down PWS, or Ortillery bombardment.

[Daryk]

Well, it's effectively one more bonus to hit, which I at least wouldn't turn down...

[marcussmythe]

Lagrange - thats almost exactly what was in my head.  Obviously to be tweaked by technology and the needs of the using power, but even under conservative (100:1) fighter rules, I think thats about the best compromise for power v cost you can get down in ‘cheap and cheerful’ hulls.

The Lola knockoffs are cheaper, of course.  Less combat power per c-bill, but if I need presence and hull counts, cheap lola clones operating with cheap light carriers might not be an utterly terrible doctrine.

[AlphaMirage]

Yeah that is something I touch upon with my own thoughts on Warship (link in sig below) and why my AU's Warship programs find themselves at an impasse. Without taking into account the cost of raising, supplying, and maintaining a frankly incredible amount of fighters (we are talking Ace Combat Strangereal level) and dropship carriers they are just better than Warships as long as they can get to their target. Just utilizing dropship based PWS Nuke Missileers and Carriers transporting Fighters, even armed with Anti-Shipping Missiles if not Alamos, by more numerous regular jumpships is favored by the cost and rules while being tactically sound.

There are three ways to avoid this, make capital fire vs fighters/missiles easier (drop the to-hit penalties for cap to sub-cap and sub-cap to standard, maybe even give standard and missiles a pulse bonus due to better fire control) so a Warship can better destroy fighters or intercept missiles on its own or allow Warships to carry greater masses of armor per SI, both of which are easier than nerfing fighters vs dropships. The third way is to increase the capital armor bonus via either halving all incoming standard damage or boosting it to 100 standard per 1 capital.

Another way but rarely represented in BT fiction is to just use good vector tactics, don't fight a static battle. Make a faster Warship that can gas out heavier fighters with powerful but short ranged weapons by just moving 6 all the time, while having enough long range firepower to blow up their carriers. At that speed too most PWS or slower larger transports can't keep up with her limiting the threat during parallel or stern chases, meanwhile the PWS only has a few turns before an approaching Warship is within weapon's range, and it and its friend's are toast. This is my standard destroyer doctrine and why I choose a Lola I, fighters will only get 1, maybe two passes at her, if she lets them, all the while staying within her weapon's range, before they run out of fuel (and get their carrier blown up) meanwhile she has enough to go for months.

We can't forget that a Vengeance costs a half billion to manufacture itself, a Titan almost 600 million and the only fighter carrier that can actually overtake a 4/6 Warship rather than pace one. You wouldn't want to lose those and their 20-40 Fighters (or the 6-22.5 million c-bill each cost)  more than you have to, and that's not even including the Jumpships they need to ride on which are at least as expensive. Actually it's pretty sobering that a Titan costs almost the same as an Invader and you'd need a lot of them to take down a well-designed and played Warship.

[marcussmythe]

The cost multiplier (presumably based on the cost of designing a vessel for inter-atmospheric operation) makes dropships *hideously* expensive for their capability.  Ive not done a rigorous analysis, but my thought is that the reason you build PWS is because you cant build WS, or need to do other things…  not because you expect to save money by hunting WS with their smaller cousins.

The real cost break is fighters, of course.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Figured I'd have a go of it.

Constellation Light Frigate
Mass: 290,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3145
Mass: 290,000
Battle Value: 74,928
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 4,971,950,000 C-bills

Fuel: 5,000 tons (12,500)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 8
Heat Sinks: 800 (1600)
Structural Integrity: 40

Armor
    Nose: 36
    Fore Sides: 31/31
    Aft Sides: 24/24
    Aft: 22

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (18)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (6)         2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (10960.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    40 rounds of AR10 Killer Whale ammunition (1,650 tons),
    40 rounds of AR10 Barracuda ammunition (990 tons),
    40 rounds of AR10 White Shark ammunition (1,320 tons),
    240 rounds of NAC/30 ammunition (65.6 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 2 (90 m, 90 m)
Escape Pods: 12
Life Boats: 12
Crew:  24 officers, 81 enlisted/non-rated, 40 gunners, 66 bay personnel      

Notes: Mounts 180 tons of ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (608 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)                 200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (80 shots)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  40   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (8 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (8 shots)
    AR10 White Shark Ammo (8 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                            340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Laser AMS                                 28   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
FRS/FLS (408 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  40   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (8 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (8 shots)
    AR10 White Shark Ammo (8 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                            340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Laser AMS                                 28   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
RBS/LBS (200 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)                 200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (80 shots)
ARS/ALS (408 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  40   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (8 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (8 shots)
    AR10 White Shark Ammo (8 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                            340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Laser AMS                                 28   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
Aft (368 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 55                            340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
4 Laser AMS                                 28   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
   

[Daryk]

Nice... I like it Gio! :)

[Giovanni Blasini]

Also, speaking of shrinking ships:

Vincent Corvette Superlegerra
Mass: 100,000 tons
Use: Corvette
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 2432
Mass: 100,000
Battle Value: 15,877
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-X-E-F
Cost: 3,880,128,000 C-bills

Dimensions
    Length: 402 m
    Height: 1005 m Sail

Fuel: 2,000 tons (20,000)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 4
Heat Sinks: 264
Structural Integrity: 40

Armor
    Nose: 16
    Fore Sides: 19/19
    Aft Sides: 19/19
    Aft: 16

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (4)         1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (6)             2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (13127.5 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    200 rounds of NAC/10 ammunition (40 tons),
    20 rounds of Barracuda ammunition (600 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (60 m)
Escape Pods: 8
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  13 officers, 52 enlisted/non-rated, 9 gunners, 32 bay personnel      

Notes: Mounts 70.5 tons of ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (20 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)  20   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (20 shots)
FRS/FLS (48 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/10)             30   10(100) 10(100) 10(100)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/10 Ammo (50 shots)
2 Large Laser                           16   2(16)   2(16)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
2 Small Laser                            2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
RBS/LBS (48 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/10)             30   10(100) 10(100) 10(100)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/10 Ammo (50 shots)
2 Large Laser                           16   2(16)   2(16)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
2 Small Laser                            2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
   

Nice... I like it Gio! :)

Thanks!

[Daryk]

I really want to like that Vincent, but the NAC/10s are killing me.  NLs would be better in pretty much every way.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I really want to like that Vincent, but the NAC/10s are killing me.  NLs would be better in pretty much every way.

Probably, but I wanted to do a direct conversion.  Easy enough to change, though, as long as you don't mind cutting cargo some more and adding more heat sinks than the original Vincent.


Vincent Corvette Mk SL-2
Mass: 100,000 tons
Use: Corvette
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 2432
Mass: 100,000
Battle Value: 12,736
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-X-E-F
Cost: 3,886,816,000 C-bills

Dimensions
    Length: 402 m
    Height: 1005 m Sail

Fuel: 2,000 tons (20,000)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 4
Heat Sinks: 986
Structural Integrity: 40

Armor
    Nose: 16
    Fore Sides: 19/19
    Aft Sides: 19/19
    Aft: 16

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (4)         1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (6)             2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (11618.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    20 rounds of Barracuda ammunition (600 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (60 m)
Escape Pods: 8
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  13 officers, 52 enlisted/non-rated, 13 gunners, 32 bay personnel      

Notes: Mounts 70 tons of ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (20 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)  20   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (20 shots)
FRS/FLS (188 Heat)
2 Large Laser                           16   2(16)   2(16)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
2 Small Laser                            2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
2 Naval Laser 55                        170  11(110) 11(110) 11(110) 11(110)  Capital Laser
RBS/LBS (188 Heat)
2 Large Laser                           16   2(16)   2(16)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
2 Small Laser                            2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
2 Naval Laser 55                        170  11(110) 11(110) 11(110) 11(110)  Capital Laser
   

[Daryk]

Much better!  And I think it's totally worth the little bit of cargo... :)

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Sorry I haven’t commented on my own thread/challenge: rough week IRL

Quick comments from phone.

Gio: love your shrinking SLDF Warships lol

Alpha: I have your Warship thread tagged and I’ve kept up to date: it’s a well done piece overall. I like your shrunken Lola, and even though I’ve seen the math I agree with Daryk lol IDK what to say

At everyone: of course throwing thousands of fighters, missiles, and DS is a better strategy than Warships. As it’s been discussed Aerospace rules need an update, but the likelihood of ‘new’ Warships is low (Leviathan III non-withstanding).

This is more of a thought project (and backup backup plan ;) ) for how low can you go to make a Warship still perform. I’ve described it badly but my brain is weird.

[Daryk]

I just realized Gio's Vincent has no aft facing weapons at all... it needs at least SOMETHING back there, but there's plenty of cargo to make that happen (I'd go for a single NL/55, two Large Lasers, and two Smalls).

[Liam's Ghost]

 A slightly tweaked version of my Hunt class "Light Destroyer", removing the ground mobile HPG to drop its cost from around twelve billion to under five billion.

  (and yes, the Hunt is a shrunk down, somewhat optimized Essex)

Hunt Light Destroyer Mark IE
Mass: 220,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced) 
Introduced: 2770
Mass: 220,000
Battle Value: 66,974
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-X-E-F
Cost: 4,689,806,800 C-bills

Fuel: 600 tons (3,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 6
Heat Sinks: 750 (1500)
Structural Integrity: 60

Armor
    Nose: 54
    Fore Sides: 54/54
    Aft Sides: 53/53
    Aft: 32

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (6)             2 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (4)         2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (9789.0 tons)     1 Door    

Ammunition:
    576 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (48 tons), 
    240 rounds of NAC/20 ammunition (96 tons), 
    30 rounds of Barracuda ammunition (900 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (55 m)
Escape Pods: 6
Life Boats: 6
Crew:  24 officers, 71 enlisted/non-rated, 39 gunners, 32 bay personnel, 20 marines      

Notes: Equipped with 
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Small)
   264 tons of ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (183 Heat)
3 Naval Autocannon (NAC/20)               180  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC  
    NAC/20 Ammo (60 shots)
3 Anti-Missile System                      3    1(9)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (72 shots)
FRS/FLS (193 Heat)
3 Naval Autocannon (NAC/20)               180  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC  
    NAC/20 Ammo (60 shots)
1 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)    10   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)    2(20)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (10 shots)
3 Anti-Missile System                      3    1(9)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (72 shots)
RBS/LBS (423 Heat)
6 Naval Laser 45                          420  27(270) 27(270) 27(270) 27(270)  Capital Laser
3 Anti-Missile System                      3    1(9)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (72 shots)
ARS/ALS (423 Heat)
6 Naval Laser 45                          420  27(270) 27(270) 27(270) 27(270)  Capital Laser
3 Anti-Missile System                      3    1(9)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (72 shots)
Aft (193 Heat)
3 Naval Autocannon (NAC/20)               180  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC  
    NAC/20 Ammo (60 shots)
1 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)    10   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)    2(20)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (10 shots)
3 Anti-Missile System                      3    1(9)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (72 shots)

[Giovanni Blasini]

I just realized Gio's Vincent has no aft facing weapons at all...

...it's a Vincent.

it needs at least SOMETHING back there, but there's plenty of cargo to make that happen (I'd go for a single NL/55, two Large Lasers, and two Smalls).

So, a Vigilant? 

A slightly tweaked version of my Hunt class "Light Destroyer", removing the ground mobile HPG to drop its cost from around twelve billion to under five billion.

  (and yes, the Hunt is a shrunk down, somewhat optimized Essex)

It works.  That's a mean little ship.

[Daryk]

More like a Bonaventure, I think... ;)

And agreed on Liam's ship! :)

[Giovanni Blasini]

OK, a streamlined version of the Cruiser class:

Cruiser Budget
Mass: 500,000 tons
Use: Cruiser
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced) 
Introduced: 2325
Mass: 500,000
Battle Value: 104,946
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-X-E-F
Cost: 6,038,234,000 C-bills

Dimensions
    Length: 240 m
    Height: 1200 m Sail

Fuel: 5,000 tons (12,500)
Safe Thrust: 2
Maximum Thrust: 3
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 12
Heat Sinks: 4,291
Structural Integrity: 90

Armor
    Nose: 84
    Fore Sides: 72/72
    Aft Sides: 62/62
    Aft: 62

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (40)        8 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Cargo (42487.0 tons)    2 Doors   

Ammunition:
    120 rounds of White Shark ammunition (4,800 tons), 
    800 rounds of Machine Gun ammunition (4 tons), 
    320 rounds of NAC/30 ammunition (6.4 tons), 
    240 rounds of Barracuda ammunition (7,200 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 2 (100 m, 100 m)
Escape Pods: 150
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  50 officers, 150 enlisted/non-rated, 90 gunners, 200 bay personnel, 500 passengers, 90 marines      

Notes: Mounts 900 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (544 Heat)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)    30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (30 shots)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)    30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (30 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)               200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC  
    NAC/30 Ammo (40 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                          280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
4 Small Laser                              4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 Machine Gun                              0    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (200 shots)
FRS/FLS (574 Heat)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)  45   9(90)   9(90)   9(90)    9(90)   Capital Missile
    White Shark Ammo (30 shots)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)  45   9(90)   9(90)   9(90)    9(90)   Capital Missile
    White Shark Ammo (30 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)               200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC  
    NAC/30 Ammo (40 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                          280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
4 Small Laser                              4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 Machine Gun                              0    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (200 shots)
RBS/LBS (540 Heat)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)    30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (30 shots)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)    30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (30 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)               200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC  
    NAC/30 Ammo (40 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                          280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (484 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)               200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC  
    NAC/30 Ammo (40 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                          280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
4 Small Laser                              4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
Aft (540 Heat)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)    30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (30 shots)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)    30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (30 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)               200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC  
    NAC/30 Ammo (40 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                          280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
4 Machine Gun                              0    1(8)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (200 shots)
      

[Daryk]

I like it!  But it looks like it got pasted in twice... ;)

[Giovanni Blasini]

I like it!  But it looks like it got pasted in twice... ;)

Fixed.

[Daryk]

Thank you, kind sir! :)

[AlphaMirage]

If you want a decent idea of flotilla options vs a common Warship I attached an excel I came up with using the generic rules in Campaign Ops. Most of the dropships are canon enough and the adjustments are sensible (as much as I love using Small Craft and Fighters the Vengeance just doesn't need them, it needs cargo!)

Interesting observations I've found, PWS Missile Ships are cheap to acquire but expensive to maintain and surprisingly long legged if you can keep them stocked with ammo. The Vengeance is a very short ranged vessel which is good when you need to break something fast but not for persistence patrols. The Titan's tour of duty is actually a pretty reasonable one for an interstellar empire, and Warship endurance is pretty fantastic.

My model Lola 1, even shrunk down, is still able to theoretically cruise around for almost 2 years without resupply, under peacetime conditions of course. When running at max everything that extra storage might be life or death but it definitely makes for some useful gunboat diplomacy. Still during times of war it definitely helps to have plenty of supplies afloat that can be brought in to aid your ground forces so there's probably a Battalion of ground pounder gear that can be transferred on its small craft somewhere in its voluminous cargo bays.

[Andras]

Naval Laser mod Fox at 240kt, replace the NAC10s with more NL45/55 pairs, and another battery in the broadsides for 8 double pairs of NL 45/55 (1 quad per arc)

backed up by 8 barracuda tubes, 32 AMS, 16 LgPulse, 48 medium pulse, 24 fighters, 4 small craft, 12k cargo. 106 armor per arc.

forgoing LF batteries for cost savings, and only 2 drop collars= 6.2billion per ship.



But for only 8.6billion per copy you can have a 650kt Light Cruiser running 4/6,
Taking out the LF batts reduces price from 14.6b to 8.6b.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Brooklyn Lt Cruiser
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $8,606,735,124.00
Magazine Cost: $24,920,000.00
BV2: 97,655

Mass: 650,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
30 Naval AC 20
24 Capital Launcher Barracuda
10 Capital Launcher White Shark
24 Subcapital Laser 3
24 Laser Large Pulse (IS)
48 AMS (IS)

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 156,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 4
Maximum: 6
Controls: 1,625.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (14 Integrity) 294,125.00
Jump Sail: (5 Integrity) 63.00
Structural Integrity: 90 58,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 1653(3306) Double 1,050.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 17250 points 7,038.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 1224 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 1,170.00
Fore: 204
Fore-Left/Right: 204/204
Aft-Left/Right: 204/204
Aft: 204

Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100.00

Life Boats: 50 350.00

Crew And Passengers:
46 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 322.00
129 Crew in Steerage Quarters 645.00
92 Gunners and Others in Steerage Quarters 460.00
150 Bay Personnel 0.00
150 Steerage Passengers 750.00 (bay pers in quarters)

Fighters: 24 w 6 doors
Small Craft: 6 w 6 doors,
Cargo: 24,500 with 3 doors
Battle Armor: 48

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
6 Naval AC 20 FR 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 FL 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
3 Naval AC 20 RBS 180 600 (60-C) Long-C 7,500.00
3 Naval AC 20 LBS 180 600 (60-C) Long-C 7,500.00
6 Naval AC 20 AR 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 AL 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda FR 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 540.00
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda FL 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 540.00
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda AR 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 540.00
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda AL 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 540.00
5 Capital Launcher White Shark RBS 75 150 (15-C) Extreme-C 600.00
5 Capital Launcher White Shark LBS 75 150 (15-C) Extreme-C 600.00
4 Subcapital Laser 3 Nose 128 120 (12-C) Medium-C 1,000.00
4 Subcapital Laser 3 FR 128 120 (12-C) Medium-C 1,000.00
4 Subcapital Laser 3 FL 128 120 (12-C) Medium-C 1,000.00
4 Subcapital Laser 3 AR 128 120 (12-C) Medium-C 1,000.00
4 Subcapital Laser 3 AL 128 120 (12-C) Medium-C 1,000.00
4 Subcapital Laser 3 Aft 128 120 (12-C) Medium-C 1,000.00
4 Laser Large Pulse (IS) Nose 40 36 (3.6-C) Medium 28.00
4 Laser Large Pulse (IS) FR 40 36 (3.6-C) Medium 28.00
4 Laser Large Pulse (IS) FL 40 36 (3.6-C) Medium 28.00
4 Laser Large Pulse (IS) AR 40 36 (3.6-C) Medium 28.00
4 Laser Large Pulse (IS) AL 40 36 (3.6-C) Medium 28.00
4 Laser Large Pulse (IS) Aft 40 36 (3.6-C) Medium 28.00
12 AMS (IS) Nose 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00
12 AMS (IS) RBS 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00
12 AMS (IS) LBS 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00
12 AMS (IS) Aft 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00

Ammo Rounds Mass
Naval AC 20 Ammo 900 360.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 240 7,200.00
Capital Launcher White Shark Ammo 100 4,000.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 3168 264.00

Sufficient DHS for all weapons plus 30 extra for additional AMS shots.

Granted the fighters and small craft will add to the total cost.


For a hair under 4b, you get a 105kt gunboat with a pair of NAC25s upfront to basically confetti anything in its own weight class.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: CEC DP100 Gunboat
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $3,976,333,604.00
Magazine Cost: $5,380,000.00
BV2: 26,830

Mass: 105,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
32 AMS (IS)
30 Laser Large Pulse (IS)
6 Capital Launcher Barracuda
2 Capital Launcher Killer Whale
2 Naval AC 25

Fighters:12
Small Craft: 4
Infantry Platoons: 4
Cargo: 4,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 25,200.00
Thrust
Safe: 4
Maximum: 6
Controls: 263.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (4 Integrity) 47,513.00
Jump Sail: (3 Integrity) 36.00
Structural Integrity: 90 9,450.00
Total Heat Sinks: 301(602) Double 32.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 30000 points 3,060.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 319 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 189.00
Fore: 54
Fore-Left/Right: 53/53
Aft-Left/Right: 53/53
Aft: 53

Dropship Capacity: 1 1,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50.00
Medium: 0.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 0 0.00
Life Boats: 15 105.00

Crew And Passengers:
14 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 98.00
52 Crew in Steerage Quarters 260.00
15 Gunners and Others in Steerage Quarters 75.00
156 Bay Personnel 0.00

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
8 AMS (IS) Nose 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 4.00
8 AMS (IS) RBS 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 4.00
8 AMS (IS) LBS 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 4.00
8 AMS (IS) Aft 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 4.00
5 Laser Large Pulse (IS) Nose 50 45 (4.5-C) Medium 35.00
5 Laser Large Pulse (IS) FR 50 45 (4.5-C) Medium 35.00
5 Laser Large Pulse (IS) FL 50 45 (4.5-C) Medium 35.00
5 Laser Large Pulse (IS) AR 50 45 (4.5-C) Medium 35.00
5 Laser Large Pulse (IS) AL 50 45 (4.5-C) Medium 35.00
5 Laser Large Pulse (IS) Aft 50 45 (4.5-C) Medium 35.00
3 Capital Launcher Barracuda Nose 30 60 (6-C) Extreme-C 270.00
3 Capital Launcher Barracuda Aft 30 60 (6-C) Extreme-C 270.00
2 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Nose 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 300.00
2 Naval AC 25 Nose 170 500 (50-C) Long-C 6,000.00

Ammo Rounds Mass
AMS (IS) Ammo 1440 120.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 60 1,800.00
Capital Launcher Killer Whale Ammo 20 1,000.00
Naval AC 25 Ammo 100 60.00