A Way Around NAVAL limitations

[DarthRads]

assuming that a nation was limited to the number of Compact Core hulls it could field, could you build a Compact Core hull that looked like a standard JumpShip? That way it could be converted into a warship when war breaks out. How would you disguise the thing, conceal the free mass, etc?

[worktroll]

The main issue is that JumpShips are built with minimal structure around their jump core, and don't really have tonnage for anything else. It'd be easy enough I suppose to build something that looks like a JumpShip, but the "straw" is half empty; trick is, though, how could you make the structural integrity enough so that you could later bolt on bigger maneuver drives, weapons and armor, without being rather obvious?

W.

[DarthRads]

The main issue is that JumpShips are built with minimal structure around their jump core, and don't really have tonnage for anything else. It'd be easy enough I suppose to build something that looks like a JumpShip, but the "straw" is half empty; trick is, though, how could you make the structural integrity enough so that you could later bolt on bigger maneuver drives, weapons and armor, without being rather obvious?

W.

Exactly...think of this like a way of covering an Amaris style secret build up...

[worktroll]

I'm suggesting you couldn't, but if you insisted (I confess not being familiar with HMA)

1) Build your compact-core "JumpShip" with the SI needed to support the drives you want it to have eventually
2) Allocate accommodation, basic life support, station-keeping drives and a few docking collars.
3) Call everything else "cargo", but basically leave it as empty space.

What you'll have is a thick, lumpy looking JumpShip.

Now you have to go house rules. Assume everything else you want (guns, fuel, fighter bays, armour) comes in bolt-on modules made somewhere else. Impose a penalty of (say) 10% representing general inefficiencies. So if you wanted to add a 10,000 ton fighter bay, it weighs 11,000 tons; 200 tons of armour uses up 220 tons of "cargo space", etc.

Does that make sense?

W.

[DarthRads]

I'm suggesting you couldn't, but if you insisted (I confess not being familiar with HMA)

1) Build your compact-core "JumpShip" with the SI needed to support the drives you want it to have eventually
2) Allocate accommodation, basic life support, station-keeping drives and a few docking collars.
3) Call everything else "cargo", but basically leave it as empty space.

What you'll have is a thick, lumpy looking JumpShip.

Now you have to go house rules. Assume everything else you want (guns, fuel, fighter bays, armour) comes in bolt-on modules made somewhere else. Impose a penalty of (say) 10% representing general inefficiencies. So if you wanted to add a 10,000 ton fighter bay, it weighs 11,000 tons; 200 tons of armour uses up 220 tons of "cargo space", etc.

Does that make sense?

W.

Yep...I know I could just make it a Compact Core Transport, but I wanted something a little more devious...

[evilauthor]

I'm suggesting you couldn't, but if you insisted (I confess not being familiar with HMA)

1) Build your compact-core "JumpShip" with the SI needed to support the drives you want it to have eventually
2) Allocate accommodation, basic life support, station-keeping drives and a few docking collars.
3) Call everything else "cargo", but basically leave it as empty space.

What you'll have is a thick, lumpy looking JumpShip.

Now you have to go house rules. Assume everything else you want (guns, fuel, fighter bays, armour) comes in bolt-on modules made somewhere else. Impose a penalty of (say) 10% representing general inefficiencies. So if you wanted to add a 10,000 ton fighter bay, it weighs 11,000 tons; 200 tons of armour uses up 220 tons of "cargo space", etc.

Does that make sense?

W.

I'd say that things that are purely internal like fighter bays and fuel tanks such would be easily retrofitted into existing cargo space as long as you have the appropriate doors. You're basically just partitioning the cargo bay into smaller sub modules and installing equipment at appropriate connection points.

The real issue is the armor and weapons which are probably not so easily changed. But if you're making a Compact Core look like a regular Jumpship, you DON'T want anyone you're trying to fool get a look at your innards anyway.

My feeling is that you build this thing like you would build a regular Warship and simply fluff it as LOOKING like a Jumpship. If the enemy you're trying to fool gets onboard, then any deception is pretty much blown anyway. However, Jumpships are limited to what? 500 ktons max size? The hypothetical compact core Jumpship is going to have to match that, otherwise it's sheer mass would be a dead giveaway that it's using a compact core.

[idea weenie]

assuming that a nation was limited to the number of Compact Core hulls it could field, could you build a Compact Core hull that looked like a standard JumpShip? That way it could be converted into a warship when war breaks out. How would you disguise the thing, conceal the free mass, etc?

I'd say you can do this, the fun part is that you'd wind up with a 'Jumpship' costing ~10 times as much.  I actually got bored, designed a Merchant with Strategic Ops rules, then a 120 kiloton Warship with roughly the same stats.  I had to give it a 1/2 engine, but the Captain will run it at station-keeping most of the time.  The final result was the Merchant costing ~500 million, and the Warship costing 5 billion.  The Li-F mod to the Warship cost ~11 billion.

Here are the other differences to the Compact Core Merchant:
SI of 9, to allow for sufficient armor to imitate the original; 69 total crew, and 7 extra escape pods.

[DarthRads]

I'd say that things that are purely internal like fighter bays and fuel tanks such would be easily retrofitted into existing cargo space as long as you have the appropriate doors. You're basically just partitioning the cargo bay into smaller sub modules and installing equipment at appropriate connection points.

The real issue is the armor and weapons which are probably not so easily changed. But if you're making a Compact Core look like a regular Jumpship, you DON'T want anyone you're trying to fool get a look at your innards anyway.

My feeling is that you build this thing like you would build a regular Warship and simply fluff it as LOOKING like a Jumpship. If the enemy you're trying to fool gets onboard, then any deception is pretty much blown anyway. However, Jumpships are limited to what? 500 ktons max size? The hypothetical compact core Jumpship is going to have to match that, otherwise it's sheer mass would be a dead giveaway that it's using a compact core.

That's what I thought I might have to do...

The idea is that the under the Arms Treaty the naton in question has built a large number of HEAVY combatants, but lacks sufficient escorts and can't build anymore WarShips as they have reached their treaty limit. So a large 'JumpShip' becomes an escort vessel once they make their move...they can get away with the large jumpsip as their is no lomit of jumpship construction and they have large ground forces that need to be moved around.

[DarthRads]

I'd say you can do this, the fun part is that you'd wind up with a 'Jumpship' costing ~10 times as much.  I actually got bored, designed a Merchant with Strategic Ops rules, then a 120 kiloton Warship with roughly the same stats.  I had to give it a 1/2 engine, but the Captain will run it at station-keeping most of the time.  The final result was the Merchant costing ~500 million, and the Warship costing 5 billion.  The Li-F mod to the Warship cost ~11 billion.

Here are the other differences to the Compact Core Merchant:
SI of 9, to allow for sufficient armor to imitate the original; 69 total crew, and 7 extra escape pods.

Money is no object for evil nation bent on destroying everyone!

[evilauthor]

That's what I thought I might have to do...

The idea is that the under the Arms Treaty the naton in question has built a large number of HEAVY combatants, but lacks sufficient escorts and can't build anymore WarShips as they have reached their treaty limit. So a large 'JumpShip' becomes an escort vessel once they make their move...they can get away with the large jumpsip as their is no lomit of jumpship construction and they have large ground forces that need to be moved around.

So... don't hide it at all. Make compact core jumpships and call them "bulk freighters". And the beauty of it is that in peace time, you CAN use their full cargo capacity for moving non-military freight! They might be 10 times as expensive as a regular Jumpship but they can haul so much MORE and I assume that anyone who builds these things is going to use them for more than 10 jumps.

[idea weenie]

So... don't hide it at all. Make compact core jumpships and call them "bulk freighters". And the beauty of it is that in peace time, you CAN use their full cargo capacity for moving non-military freight! They might be 10 times as expensive as a regular Jumpship but they can haul so much MORE and I assume that anyone who builds these things is going to use them for more than 10 jumps.

Good point.  I'll have to redo the Merchant, to make it a 2/3 pure cargo ship, without the expensive Dropship Docking points.  Dropping 2 DS Docking Ports reduces the base cost by 160.4 million, the compact core multiplier changes it to 802 million, and the Warship multiplier makes it 1.604 billion at the end.  Increasing the engine to 2/3 increases the base cost by 7.8 million, and the Warship multiplier makes it 15.6 million.

So instead of ~5.4 billion, it will cost ~3.8 billion, carry ~56,000 tons cargo, for a price of ~68,000 per ton of cargo.  Are there any good Cargo Dropships for a comparison?

[DarthRads]

I just thought a 'bulk freighter' was a little two obvious. Rhe other stellar powers in the area already hold the Dominion in distrust after their attempt to conquer the Veil (see my Veiled Alliance posts on the Fan Boards)  A 'jumpship' on the otherhand...