Author Topic: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread  (Read 28274 times)

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37365
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #270 on: 04 October 2019, 16:16:00 »
The museum covers the 2nd Corps from inception to return to Poland under Soviet domination in infographics posted from left to right around a relatively small room (from formation in Russia, then to the West via Palestine, and eventually back home for most; some remained exiles, like their commanding general, who is buried with his unit despite having died decades later in London).  Simply amazing, as I said.  If you ever get to go, sign the guest book!  Logistics-wise, fly into Naples, and drive up.  Be skeptical of Google maps.  We spent a while on backroads trying to figure out where the heck we were.  I was stationed in Naples, so the first step was taken care of by taxpayers like you (and THANK YOU!).  There's a wonderful family restaurant about half-way up the mountain.  We saw it on the way up, and stopped there on the way down.  The food was great, and reasonably priced.  Just make sure you have a designated driver (the wine was as cheap as usual in Italy, which is to say, cheaper than the water).

As far as the Swedes, neither the Finns nor the Swedes would ever do anything without the other.  One won't move unless the other does.  Yes, they're independent countries (and strongly so), but I can't think of any closer allies.  EVER.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13235
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #271 on: 04 October 2019, 19:58:25 »
Finland-Estonia, maybe, but that's still saying a lot about Finns and Swedes. 

Anyway, hm...debating.  Anyone else, thoughts on creating an independent Poland somehow with that setting?  Or do you guys agree, too unbelievable as well, and I should stick to entirely fictional settings and histories?

I suppose the other real-world option would be a Germany that doesn't get utterly reamed at the end of WWI for some reason, and manages to hold together and not implode into...what came later.  At that point, I'm throwing out half of the second world war, though, but it would make a unique enough setting. 

I'm just trying to figure out a proper setting, size, and various opposition countries because you guys brought up the points of how important that is to determining national strategy.  So now I'm trying to find a setting that addresses that and keeps the flavor I'd originally worked up, continental europe themes and pro-cavalry backgrounds and a kind of prussian professional-officer-corps mindset (not just volunteer army, but a legitimately professional one) and at least lipservice to a social aristocracy, British style, even if it doesn't have much power legally.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37365
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #272 on: 04 October 2019, 20:29:51 »
A non-basket case Germany after WWI could work.  Look into the Balkan Wars for how things would probably have continued to be.

AmBeth

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #273 on: 05 October 2019, 02:10:47 »
Anyway, hm...debating.  Anyone else, thoughts on creating an independent Poland somehow with that setting?  Or do you guys agree, too unbelievable as well, and I should stick to entirely fictional settings and histories?
Poland is difficult, but not necessarily impossible. I'd look at the first change in being with Wilson's 14 Points at the end of WW1. Point 13 was the recreation of Poland...an option with that was the recreation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, rejected at the time by the Lithuanian's. Reinstate that instead and it instantly gives you more wiggle room, with the option for a breakaway/war/rebellion of Lithuania later down the line. East Prussia stays the same for now. 1920's wars against Ukraine and Soviets still occur, but you loose the Lithuanian-Soviet-Polish wars over the area around Vilnus.

To slow down Operation Bagration your only real option is to change Stalingrad by getting some of the 6th Army out...there are a few times for this to happen and still have the encirclement occur, major ones for me are either by slowing/halting Army Group A's assault into the Caucus, or after the initial battles for Verkhne-Kumskiy...either change the affect the Russian 4th Mechanized had here (less effective means the road to Stalingrad is pretty much open for Hoth to get to Paulsen for a few days), or allow an attempt at a breakout by the 6th Army between the 13th and 18th of December.

How this would play out after is up for debate though!

I suppose the other real-world option would be a Germany that doesn't get utterly reamed at the end of WWI for some reason, and manages to hold together and not implode into...what came later.  At that point, I'm throwing out half of the second world war, though, but it would make a unique enough setting.

Easiest way to change all this is have something happen to Goering in early 1940. Gives you the possibility to lter everything from the outcome of Dunkirk onwards.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13235
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #274 on: 05 October 2019, 02:56:11 »
Poland is difficult, but not necessarily impossible. I'd look at the first change in being with Wilson's 14 Points at the end of WW1. Point 13 was the recreation of Poland...an option with that was the recreation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, rejected at the time by the Lithuanian's. Reinstate that instead and it instantly gives you more wiggle room, with the option for a breakaway/war/rebellion of Lithuania later down the line. East Prussia stays the same for now. 1920's wars against Ukraine and Soviets still occur, but you loose the Lithuanian-Soviet-Polish wars over the area around Vilnus.
I was discussing this idea with an Estonian friend, and he mentioned the whole Vilnius situation being a sticking point everywhere.  Though he agreed that the Lithuanians would probably join in, if they were allowed to keep the city area, and we both figured the eastern threat would be too big to bicker over things like that.  That would also let me ignore the March Constitution's adjustments and elimination of the nobility...

Maybe the post-WWII treaties, since Yalta never happens in this timeline, include that same concession of the baltics - IF Poland gives up its claim on the cities of Grodno, Brest, and Lviv.  Or else Poland picks a fight for it.
To slow down Operation Bagration your only real option is to change Stalingrad by getting some of the 6th Army out...there are a few times for this to happen and still have the encirclement occur, major ones for me are either by slowing/halting Army Group A's assault into the Caucus, or after the initial battles for Verkhne-Kumskiy...either change the affect the Russian 4th Mechanized had here (less effective means the road to Stalingrad is pretty much open for Hoth to get to Paulsen for a few days), or allow an attempt at a breakout by the 6th Army between the 13th and 18th of December.

How this would play out after is up for debate though!
What if German command is more concerned with the rapid advance of the Soviets and sends the troops and supplies for the Ardennes offensive to the eastern front instead, especially after hearing of the death of Stalin?  It'd let the Allies advance faster, as well.
Easiest way to change all this is have something happen to Goering in early 1940. Gives you the possibility to lter everything from the outcome of Dunkirk onwards.
Tempting, certainly.  Biggest question though...does WWII still carry out, and all the technological changes that brought? 

I think I'm settling on the easiest mode - going back to that national map of Latvia/Lithuania/Belarus, and simply declaring an entirely alternate world and country with a large superpower on the western border, occupying some territory that used to belong to the Republic back when it was a kingdom.  Other neighbors include a definite peer state on the eastern border with a long history of fighting conventional wars, and to the southern land border two slightly smaller and less stable states with border skirmishes and counterclaims as well as a growing empire on their other side.  Country A will be the superpower/premiere regional power, Country B will be the peer nation, Country C and D to our south the weaker powers.  Historical territorial claims extend through all four nations.  Country E will be to our north, without historical claim, but a small nation that at the moment maintains independence and little belligerence.  The rest of the north is waterfronted, though there is Country F not far over the waters that is generally unfriendly and there is a naval battles history.  Other nations primarily remain neutral, with some political and economic support.

Historically: 1939-1945 saw the same level of fighting and technological growth, and the establishment of a larger state.  Some of this came with significant military adventurism, not all of which was successful and ended up forcing a political shift from a monarchy to a constitutional parliament for government (see: abdication via defenstration).  Our republic's old adversary, Country B, managed to drive back much of the attempts to gain territory, the border ending up more or less where it started in the end even with the dawn of mechanized warfare.  Breakups forming Country C and D to our south proved slightly easier pickings, but hubris has its price.  Over the next ten years, Country A consolidated its status as a unified superpower, and invaded with intent to conquer/punish the Republic for existing and a number of other lesser crimes.  After four years of fighting, including not insignificant foreign aid, approximately 1/4 of the nation was ceded to  Country A.

This has not been forgotten.

How's that do for a setting for our fictional republic?  Something much more workable for strategic threats, as was requested, and still not tied down to the kinds of baggage a real-world swap would have.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37365
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #275 on: 05 October 2019, 07:04:23 »
The territorial claims angle is totally legit.  Did you ever see any of the old maps of Lithuania?  Specifically with the borders running all the way to the Black Sea?

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13235
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #276 on: 05 October 2019, 17:37:39 »
I've seen the prewar Polish borders, and the extend of the P-L commonwealth; it's interesting how much they changed over time considering we've all grown up with them static and, for the most part, unchanging.

Colt, kato, AmBeth, any thoughts on the strategic situation?  Things I should consider, perhaps changes to the number of troops?  I'd like to have one expeditionary corps after all, at least, considering there's plenty of opportunity and potentially some need for significant offensive operations.  Plus with a larger power on the border, and terrain of ours they've taken, and the potential fighting in the unstable south, I get the feeling there'd be a larger army to start with and a serious consideration for conscript forces.

Keeping this idea alive, though at least with much better foundations this time around.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

AmBeth

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #277 on: 05 October 2019, 19:03:08 »
see: abdication via defenestration

Well a monarch abdicating by being thrown out of a window is certainly one way to do it, but not sure how it would lead to a constitutional parliament  ;) :D

More seriously, how alternate is the world going to be? Are any nations and timeline events going to be replicated as is, with a single major point of divergence,  or will it be more the broad strokes of history occur at the same time to give a framework to hang things on?

truetanker

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9952
  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #278 on: 05 October 2019, 19:35:55 »
Yeah, what AmBeth said...

Do the Confederate States of America still exist in one form or another? :thumbsup:

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13235
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #279 on: 05 October 2019, 21:08:24 »
I'm going with more broad strokes of history to avoid a lot of unpleasant details, and for some freedom in the setting.  Two world wars, to push the technology timeline along in rough parallel, but the reasons they're fought are different and the outcome is more flexible to bring about what I want.  Maybe nukes get set back a ways because of the big reactor failure, or else because the Gadget sets itself off unexpectedly and vaporizes Project Manhattan and nobody knows why because they're all dust in the wind; that's something that would only affect COUNTRY A and maybe some foreign powers.  Not something I'm worried about locally for REPUBLIC.

CSAnalogue might exist, haven't given that one much thought.  If so it's on the other side of the planet.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

chanman

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3918
  • Architect of suffering
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #280 on: 06 October 2019, 00:12:22 »
I'm actually beating around the idea of an alt history where the Allies manage to bypass the Ardennes offensive, go through Siegfried, and bumrush Berlin by the start of 1945.  At the same time, Stalin has his stroke ten years early, and with a little reversal to slow things down they'd only be just arriving at Poland at that point - and the political power is in turmoil there.  That opens up a potential history for this Free Poland, which at the moment is holding on with a really remarkably altered Europe.  More about this in a little bit.That was one possibility I'd had, the idea was that a different timeline led the first great physics push for peaceful power and the first reactor being a largescale operation, since they knew everything about it - except for xenon contamination, and when the entire nuclear physics world was there to watch their culminating achievement it ate itself and took them with it.  Instant major setback in the world of nuclear physics, doubly so when nobody has any idea what went wrong in the first place and only the grad students are left.

It ended up in a short story I wrote, posted it here a couple boards ago.  Originally this idea was for part of that same setting, but ideas mutate often.


That would make a fun alternate, looking it over.  You've got the central lowlands and the river delta, one hell of a natural barrier with India, and a mess of a highlands to the east.  Some good tank country, but you'd really need light mobile assets in those hills, depending on how much of a plateau the Shan is.  And one very, very solid brownwater navy as well...

If Operation Market Garden had gone off more successfully and say... the 2 SS Panzer divisions had been ordered to refit in a different location, that might give you your timeline

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13235
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #281 on: 06 October 2019, 14:41:24 »
Alright, so we have a slightly possible situation here, then.  For either alterPoland or else REPUBLIC, keeping the population headcount as decided, would you still stick with the ~200,000 in arms, or how much of an increase via professional and volunteer military could be be believed in that strategic situation?  Or do you prefer conscription for having that many potential hostile forces around you, and if so what level - bare minimum for reserves all the way up to a fully drafted army?
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37365
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #282 on: 06 October 2019, 14:42:59 »
If you have Russia (any incarnation) on your border, 200,000 isn't nearly enough under arms.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13235
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #283 on: 06 October 2019, 15:16:50 »
Established.  37,125,000 population for either country in 1975 (I'm assuming a higher population for Poland due to differences in history).  What kind of percentages for military service do you guys figure, is the big question.  Conscription or volunteer, and how big for either?

I suppose another question is, who would the Poles be fighting in the 1950s; a liberation of the baltic states?  Checking a Soviet thrust into Hungary in 1956? 
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

AmBeth

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #284 on: 07 October 2019, 07:10:23 »
Established.  37,125,000 population for either country in 1975 (I'm assuming a higher population for Poland due to differences in history).  What kind of percentages for military service do you guys figure, is the big question.  Conscription or volunteer, and how big for either?

I suppose another question is, who would the Poles be fighting in the 1950s; a liberation of the baltic states?  Checking a Soviet thrust into Hungary in 1956?

I've got to be honest here, you really need to settle on what you want this setting to be. You keep flip-flopping between asking for advice about an alt-history Poland and your alt-world republic, which would both get different advice/opinions due to different opposition, terrain etc.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13235
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #285 on: 07 October 2019, 09:06:43 »
Point.  Heck with it then, let's go altpoland, with all the background and history that entails.  Real reason for the back and forth thoughts was trying to avoid rule 4, but I think since we're going completely off the rails of history we can avoid most problems.
« Last Edit: 07 October 2019, 09:09:48 by ANS Kamas P81 »
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

AmBeth

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #286 on: 07 October 2019, 12:50:11 »
Point.  Heck with it then, let's go altpoland, with all the background and history that entails.  Real reason for the back and forth thoughts was trying to avoid rule 4, but I think since we're going completely off the rails of history we can avoid most problems.

Alright, that'll help focus everyone's comments too you.

Just to make sure I've got it straight; the premise of this is that history runs it's normal course until 1950s (1944?), when as yet undecided events change/occur causing either Operation Bagration to stall and a Western Allied push reaches Berlin first. 

I'd also presume in these circumstances the Soviets don't chew up most of Poland? I.E Bagration halts somewhere east of Warsaw, perhaps even as close as the river, but maybe somewhere similar to the historic Curzon Line?

As for Rule 4, an understandable concern but we can always check with the mods
« Last Edit: 07 October 2019, 13:22:03 by AmBeth »

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37365
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #287 on: 07 October 2019, 15:23:14 »
That sounds like a recipe for a West Poland/East Poland...  If the Russians cross the Polish border they wouldn't give any ground back.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13235
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #288 on: 07 October 2019, 16:24:16 »
Yeah.  I'm gonna run a very rough rundown of thoughts:  (please forgive lack of non-english letters)

Eastern Front: Stalin dies early from a stroke, in mid-1944.  Operation Bagration still goes off, but with the political power vacuum there's much confusion in high command, and the deception attempts are less successful.  The Germans slow the advance, and instead of taking Warsaw the Soviet forces only make it as far as Lwow and Brzesc.  This puts them right around the Curzon line and our 1947 border, so modern maps will be acceptable to work with.  Once things settle in Moscow, with a short chain of short-lived successors, Nikita Khrushchev ends up in power about the time the war ends in March of 1945.  Bagration does succeed somewhat into pushing into Romania, but not far, leaving Marshal Tito plenty of room to expand his own empire postwar.

Western Front: Operation Market Garden doesn't run into the 2nd Panzer, which is refitting elsewhere, and is generally considered a success.  The Ardennes offensive still goes off in late 1944, and is generally rebuffed as a last-gasp attempt, the Allies doing just enough to slow it down while driving hard for Berlin - doubly so with the Soviet failure in the East.  Berlin is taken by March 1945, ending the European theater.

Without a Yalta conference, division of Europe is predicated on postwar standings - the British support a free Poland, on the border of the Soviet Union, and return the exiled government and many of its soldiers in British service.  Meanwhile the west is divided - Truman's focus is on the Pacific, and this allows a different division of Germany - Berlin will still be administrated by the four major powers (GB, US, USSR, France) while the Ruhr valley and some of western Germany is absorbed into France.  The rest is divided North and South, with capitals in Hanover and Nuremburg.

Tito pushes his armies into Greece and eastern Italy, while the French take portions of the west - the central and southern portion of the country is brought under the control of the Vatican and pacified, in a larger-scale version of the city-state.  Swiss forces guard this area, with official leadership from the Pope. 

Poland forms a buffer state in northern Europe, the Soviets accepting this barrier between them and Germany on a strategic level, while eyeing the Balkans.  Much of the German army still occupied the country at the end of the war; Polish pressure forces them to leave their heavier equipment in place while the soldiers return home.  Agreements between the British, Americans, and Soviets leave them without direct support from either side as far as military alliances or sales go, forcing Poland in a position to go it alone as the barrier between both sides.

The USA focuses on the pacific, popular opinion against further meddling in Europe; atomic weapons are developed on schedule and used on Japan.  Little changes in this regard.  Opinions on colonial possessions, and the British economy, drive a further rift between them and the Americans, and the Empire continues to exist with many of their wartime holdings intact.  This leaves Britain administering North Germany, while the Nuremburg Republic tries to gather itself back together, and France directly supporting Poland as the only major nation that didn't sign the above treaty.

Khrushchev's plans for the future still involve deeper buffer states, but on a subtler basis - much more attention is paid to subversion and political pressure rather than invasions such as Hungary in 1956, historically.  Yugoslavia is willing to prop up Romania against the Russians, while nibbling hard on Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece.  Meanwhile Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Austria trade borders and deal with the burgeoning Soviet threat; France quickly aligns itself at the head of this growing alliance.

Poland itself isn't simply content to stay on defense - once they were more secured strategically, annexation of eastern territories of the German states that were historically Polish came quickly against the British-backed Germans.  Border skirmishes with the Czechs continue with both sides claiming swaths of land, while the Baltic Trio end up in open revolt against the Soviets, with Polish support - precipitating the first war in 1954.  This sees limited success, as the Soviets are powerful militarily, but know that taking Poland means losing the buffer state they have with the west as well as invites retaliation from an atomic-armed America.  They are quite happy to beat on the Polish forces, if it means a weaker neighbor.  The border generally remains where it is, though the freed Lithiuania, Latvia, and Estonia join the Franco-Polish counter-Soviet alliance.  Finland and Sweden remain neutral, while Norway does join in as well.

Strategic Considerations:
Poland has, well, the 900 pound bear in the room on its eastern border.  To the south are two slightly smaller nations that have had much more support in rebuilding from the West, and there are more than a few disputed territorial claims.  To the west is a British-rebuilt Germany, slowly becoming one nation de facto if not de jure.  North is the Scandinavians and Baltics, with major defense contributions to the latter trio and a very strong need to keep them supported.

Without NATO, Poland primarily has itself, Israel, South Africa, and France for military equipment it can't yet build.  It got off a little bit lighter this time around without the Soviet invasion during and after Bagration historically, but that's not saying much. Early on most of their armaments would be abandoned German hardware, though as the French industry comes up they'll get a lot of castoffs from them and the low countries.  Poland may not be economically strong, but its natural resources are fine trades for the French - iron and coal chiefly.

So come 1975, you've got a larger Yugoslavia with Romania and Bulgaria divided between them and the USSR to the far south, Czechoslovakia to the south with Hungary caught in between, and Italy and Germany both broken at least partially absorbed.  France is the major power on the continent, while Spain has remained neutral under Franco (which won't last) and the Low Countries focusing mostly on their distant colonies along with the English, occasionally fighting over various holdings.  Poland itself lacks these colonies, focusing instead on the historically-Polish territory absorbed into the Ukrainian and Byelorussian SSRs.  The Kaliningrad region is absorbed into Poland, while claims on Vilnius were dropped as part of the Baltic agreement.  The Americans are mostly out of Europe, with only token forces left in the Nuremburg Republic, and British forces help defend North Germany.

Strategically, they need to hold off what they can of a potential Soviet invasion, Fulda-Gap style, with as much French support as they can beg, borrow, or steal.  Instability in the south requires attention, while the two German territories are always going to be a danger no matter what year it is; past that the Baltic sea and the "Copenhagen Gate" to the Atlantic is also critical as it is the primary means of French support.  While there's no atomics in Poland there is still a last-resort/deterrent force of chemical weapons, primarily aimed at the Soviets as a counter to the Strategic Rocket Forces.  Everything else is conventional forces.

I wish this hadn't taken so long, but I hadn't considered a lot of things which quickly became apparent in the early iterations of this thread.  Hopefully this gives a much better foundation to build on, without breaking politics rules - we're sticking to an entirely alternate history.

So it's 1975, feel free to suggest any battles in the past outside of the 1954-1957 war with the Soviets; the attempt to regain Polish territory and expand the border mostly failed but counterattacks were also generally blunted.  The end of the war saw the rough reestablishment of the same border, though at least the Baltics were broken free of Soviet control.  Fights with Czechoslovakia or expansion against Germany, feel free to come up with ideas; the same goes for the Baltic sea - it's a lifeline, and there's probably been skirmishes there as well.

Military equipment would be French, Israeli, or South African for the most part.  Israel shipping isn't too hard, connecting through southern France and then around Denmark, but South African hardware has a long way to go.  As far as an army goes, I'd like at least one expeditionary arm of the force, primarily for the Baltics as well as an offensive force should war break out again, though the primary focus is on defense of the homeland and allies.  Again sticking to 1975 for a specific year, with a semi-revived aristocracy (titles and honors were a great idea for rewarding the exiled government officials, especially without money to pay them) at a social level only, and a very determined "never again" mindset despite being mostly alone in the world. 

Size?  Capabilities?  Makeup?  I know we did a lot early on...but all the discussions we had led me to this concept and I rather like it.  Hit me! 

(Edit: one change, flipped the status of Sweden and Norway, had them mixed up)
« Last Edit: 07 October 2019, 16:51:20 by ANS Kamas P81 »
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37365
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #289 on: 07 October 2019, 16:46:47 »
One quick point: the Italians didn't switch sides at the end?  ???

If they did, they'd be more likely to maintain their territorial integrity after the war...

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13235
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #290 on: 07 October 2019, 17:05:37 »
They may have, but they were still under German control after switching sides, even if the southern half was free.  And arguably the first battles of what became the 2nd World War could be considered the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, so they were also pushing for empire status.  France would prefer them broken, IMO.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37365
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #291 on: 07 October 2019, 17:08:38 »
Ah, ok...

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #292 on: 07 October 2019, 19:13:50 »
Uh... could you draw a map?

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13235
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #293 on: 07 October 2019, 20:19:22 »
Nah...it just doesn't work, mentally, it's just not viable.  Sorry guys.  Mods, kill the thread I suppose, the questions posed were answered early on and any more is just gonna be walking the same treads unless I manage to come up with a much more detailed setting.  Axe this one for now.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Bosefius

  • Will Moderate for Hugs
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6675
Re: Creating an army for a fictional nation brainpile thread
« Reply #294 on: 07 October 2019, 22:22:07 »
Locked per OP's request
Catalyst Demo Agent #221, Huntington, WV

It's times like this I ask myself "What would Jabba the Hutt do?"