Crusader-Warden political spectrum - Who goes where?

[The Wobbly Guy]

We've been hearing about rabid crusaders, staunch wardens, moderates, fence-sitters forever, but what do these really mean?

Let's take the below spectrum:
Extreme Crusader - moderate Crusader - fence sitter - moderate Warden - Extreme Warden

Who goes where?

Note 1: I'm not talking about clans as a whole. Let's put characters on this spectrum, and why they should be whatever they are. What differentiates an Extreme Crusader from a Moderate Crusader?

Note 2: As mentioned before elsewhere, the Crusader-Warden split has nothing to do with the conservative (less civilian rights)-liberal(more civilian rights) split. We know there are conservative Wardens (Coyotes) and liberal Crusaders (Blood Spirit?).

Note 3: I tried searching the boards, but couldn't quite find what I need. So... have at it!

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Most extreme Wardens are Goliath Scorpions: Star League should be restored not by conquest but by educating misguided Spheroids

Most extreme Crusaders are Smoke Jaguars: Conquer everything first, then restore Star League. How? We'll worry about that later, conquest first

Everyone else is somewhere on the spectrum between those two

I don't think there were ever any real fence sitters, Snow Ravens were described like that but they were definitely Wardens. Just because they made money off Crusaders doesn't mean they weren't Wardens proven by the fact that they didn't invade anyone not even when they were exiled, they opted for softer approach instead

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

Falcons, Sea Foxes, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, Fire Mandrills all started off as Crusaders.

Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, and Sea Foxes all later switched to Warden.

[AlphaMirage]

I don't know if we can place enough characters to get a good differentiation between all the points of Warden vs Crusader although it might be an interesting Shrapnel story to cover the diplomacy and debate leading up to the Dragoon compromise from all points of view.

Vlad Ward is definitely in the probably 'Moderate Crusader' Camp. He was pretty extreme for the Warden Wolves but he's not quite Smoke Jaguar level. More like Jade Falcon and Marthe Pryde in most ways which is why they 'got along' so well.

I'd put most of the Steel Vipers in the Moderate Warden to Extreme Warden group. Yes they were an invader clan but previously they were pretty distant and isolationist while maintaining incredibly strict and domineering tendencies that were not quite Blood Spirit level but close. Their guiding philosophy was however more 'tough love' to bring the spheroid 'barbarians' into 'proper civilization' where they would understand their 'vision.' Those that went from Moderate to Warden-lite were probably Harvested into Wolf or Falcon.

That is compared to the Smoke Jaguars 'Rip and Tear' particularly among ilKhan Leo Showers and Khan Lincoln Osis, a philosophy that marked them as the most Extreme Crusaders. I still think the Inner Sphere should have taken the Falcons out with their Star League offensive but the Smoke Jaguars were definitely 'worse.'

[Alan Grant]

I'd put most of the Steel Vipers in the Moderate Warden to Extreme Warden group. Yes they were an invader clan but previously they were pretty distant and isolationist while maintaining incredibly strict and domineering tendencies that were not quite Blood Spirit level but close. Their guiding philosophy was however more 'tough love' to bring the spheroid 'barbarians' into 'proper civilization' where they would understand their 'vision.' Those that went from Moderate to Warden-lite were probably Harvested into Wolf or Falcon.

Actually FM: WC, page 138 tells us "indeed the attitudes of many individual Vipers warriors are indistinguishable from those of Crusader Clans; if asked they would express wholehearted support for the Crusader philosophy."

The same page tells us that the Viper mentality on this is first to crush the Inner Sphere military forces (this part feels very Crusader) but then to bring the Spheroids into the restoration of the Star League as participants.

Among individual Vipers, Era Report: 3052's major personas' section, shows us very clearly that Khan Natalie Breen was very much a keen follower of Sanra Mercer's vision and voted for Operation Revival with great reluctance. She saw the inclusion of true Crusader Clans in the invasion as complicating factors that would make it harder to enact Sanra Mercer's vision. So Natalie Breen tilted kinda Warden, though checking the "Follower of Sanra Mercer" box would be far more accurate.

By comparison, the same book tells us saKhan Perigard Zalman was following an agenda that closely aligned with mainstream Crusaders. (the book's wording)

The same book also gives us persona section on Galaxy Commander Christopher Ahmed, of Alpha Galaxy, introducing him as a leader of the Clan's Warden movement. Per Era Report: 3052, the Warden Vipers largely followed Sanra Mercer's vision but believed that the invasion was either coming too soon, or in some cases too late. After the Battle of Tukayyid things deteriorated fast for Christopher Ahmed and many of the Wardens, they were accused of "not fighting hard enough" in all the finger pointing within the Clan after the Battle of Tukayyid.

So there's a lot of nuances to the Vipers. Going into Operation Revival you have 3 key leaders, one a Sanra Mercer follower (who wants to invade the Inner Sphere, just wants the Vipers to lead it and not allow the mainstream Crusaders to screw up Mercer's vision), one a mainstream Crusader, and one a Warden.

But I would never regard the Vipers as a Clan as "Extreme Wardens" and even moderate Wardens doesn't sound right for the majority of the rank and file given what FM: WC tells us. To the Vipers the first step was always "crush the Inner Sphere military" and that put them in lock-step with the Crusaders through at least that much. It was what to do AFTER that where their differences lie.

The Vipers generally read like: Stage 1: The Conquest of the Inner Sphere and the crushing of their military (we are Crusaders!), Stage 2: Restoration of the Star League shall proceed with the Spheroids as participants and partners (We are Wardens now!).

EDIT: Of course I got off on a bit of a tangent there from what the original poster wants. He's focusing on individuals, not Clans. So there is at least some info on 3 very different Steel Vipers.

[BrianDavion]

and even "educate the inner sphere denzins so they willingly accept the clan way" isn't THAT differant from what any other crusader clan would do, at least the crusader clans with the leadership to think about step 2.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Ehhh... can we stop looking at clans and focus on specific characters?

Let's take Vlad, who's a good starting point. He's a Moderate Crusader, while Lincoln Osis is an Extreme Crusader. How are their views different? They both want to restore the Star League with the clans in charge.

[Alan Grant]

I'm very curious, why are you calling Vlad a moderate Crusader? What about his views are more moderate than Lincoln Osis?

I distinctly remember in the same book depicting the Refusal War, Ulric Kerensky had Vlad close and at one point they were speaking. Vlad told Ulric if Ulric died and if Vlad became Khan, he would take the Clan all the way to Terra. Ulric's response (I'm paraphrasing) was sort of like "it's best if you stay with me." (I always felt like he meant, best if you died with me, then, since that's your attitude)

If you are going by things like Turtle Bay, and their brutal crackdowns of all Spheroid rebellious activity, then it's important to remember the Smoke Jaguars treated everyone that way. They were brutal to their own lower castes and crushed rebellions with overwhelming military force. They had a long history of this that pre-dates Operation Revival.

That was just Smoke Jag policing 101. Not really political attitude in regard to the whole Crusader/Warden thing. Had Turtle Bay been a Clan Homeworld enclave that was in full lower caste rebellion, they might have handled it much the same way.

In truth I don't think there was that much difference between Vlad and Lincoln Osis in terms of being an aggressive Crusader. Vlad's attitudes were just shaped by being a Wolf, and Osis's attitudes were shaped by being a Smoke Jaguar. Each Clan had different conceptualizations of how you ruled the lower castes and that played a role in how they tried to treat the Spheroids. The Wolves allowed their lower castes more freedoms and individual liberties. They seem to be a bit more moderate in their willingness to run over a group of protesters with 'mechs. The Smoke Jaguars allowed their lower castes almost no individual liberties or freedoms and were more heavy-handed with military force to brutally resolve resistance or protest, even if that meant mass civilian casualties. Both allowed their existing policies to somewhat guide their policies for how they would treat their Spheroid populations in their respective Clan OZ.

EDIT: I should add (having mulled this over for a moment), maybe that is the point. Maybe the differential between moderate or extreme pertains to how the Spheroids will be treated. How sternly and strictly they'll be expected to adopt Clan norms and codes of conduct, and how harshly they'll be treated if they misbehave. I may have come full circle on this. This is kinda aimed at your original post's Note 2. But if that's the case, then in my eyes, how they treat the Spheroids actually has a lot to do with what level of extreme Crusader the individual is.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Finally a bit of clarity!

I like the point about how they would treat their new Inner Sphere holdings. Conservative or liberal, what's the level of punishment if they step out of line.

Smoke Jaguars like Paul Moon and Jez Howell used harsh punitive measures, and we know this from Exodus Road. So these two are probably Extreme Crusaders. Trent wanted more leniency, so he's a moderate. Most Crusaders are probably moderates, but there are some in each clan who are extremists, and the Jags had more than most, and in positions of authority and power.

And of course, one could probably label Malvina Hazen as the most Extreme Crusader of all time, while Alaric Ward is still a moderate. Even if the Crusader/Warden split no longer mattered by the Dark Age.

Righto, we've seen the Crusader side.

How about the Wardens? What separates a moderate Warden from an Extreme Warden? Is there even such a thing as an Extreme Warden?

[Minemech]

 I would argue that there are so many layers of separation between the Clan warrior caste and actual civilians that the caste simply wants to avoid embarrassments like Turtle Bay, they otherwise do not even know or are really capable of comprehending the effects of Clan policies on civilians. The Jade Phoenix Trilogy somewhat brings this out. Clan warriors are notoriously poor at abstract thought or practical governance, which is why Prince Ragnar had such a potent effect on the Bears.

[Alan Grant]

Honestly Warden has even more degrees because that camp is actually a coalition of different beliefs going on.

Pre-WoR

-As Fire Scorpion IIC pointed out, the Scorpions are about recreating the Star League through relics and rediscovery of the past, and teaching the misguided Spheroids about the past.

-The Cloud Cobras, willing to hold the Babylon Diets and bring religious Spheroids to the Clan Homeworlds and treat them like honored guests. Within the Cobras you also have the Anasaz Cloister, who are both Wardens and strong isolationists. We also have the Tongo Cloister, Wardens who want to bring no more war to the universe than necessary. That gets balanced out by some of the Crusader-oriented Cloisters.

-Clan Wolf-in-Exile, Clan Nova Cat, we'll stand with the Inner Sphere AGAINST the Clans. That's Extreme, probably as Extreme as it gets. In the eyes of the Clans you've become traitors to your own people. Most Wardens weren't willing to go that far. To take up arms against the Clans in defense of the Inner Sphere.

-Diamond Sharks, Snow Ravens- We want to move to the Inner Sphere, and do business with them and work with the Spheroids. Not conquer them, establish a new home and reestablish our Clan within the Inner Sphere.

And yes, I know I'm back to talking about Clans and not individuals, which isn't what you are looking for. But in most cases that's just where the bulk of our canon information is found. Furthermore, at the moment it seems like it's more important to define these degrees of difference first. So when someone says "moderate" or "extreme" we actually are using well-defined terminology. To develop the vocabulary. To do that you gotta look to what canon sources give us and that mostly comes in the form of Clan info.

[Hellraiser]

How about the Wardens? What separates a moderate Warden from an Extreme Warden? Is there even such a thing as an Extreme Warden?

-Clan Wolf-in-Exile, Clan Nova Cat, we'll stand with the Inner Sphere AGAINST the Clans. That's Extreme, probably as Extreme as it gets. In the eyes of the Clans you've become traitors to your own people. Most Wardens weren't willing to go that far. To take up arms against the Clans in defense of the Inner Sphere.

Nailed it.

Ulric, was an Extreme-Warden.
He didn't support the invasion & actively let his partners screw up so they looked bad.
He found support in Phelan & Natasha who had lived in the IS for a long time making them Extreme Wardens.

Each was willing to square up with the Crusader mindset & declare it wrong & then go about backing that up with skill in combat.

[The Wobbly Guy]

I think I got some further clarity - why does a Extreme Crusader hold different beliefs from a moderate?

The Extreme Crusader believes the Inner Sphere is a cesspit of barbarity (ironic, I know) and the only way to rebuild the Star League is to completely break the locals to their will. For this reason, Extreme Crusaders do not take bondsmen from the Inner Sphere.

The moderate Crusader recognises that the Inner Sphere has some things going for it, and are more willing to seek out middle ground and compromise to a certain extent. They're ok with taking bondsmen.

The extreme Wardens feel the Inner Sphere has many unique features and is willing to go against the rest of the Clans to defend the Inner Sphere way of life, even if they don't subscribe to it themselves. They're okay with bondsmen, even former mercs (e.g. Phelan).

The moderate Wardens? I need ideas for this.

[Cannonshop]

I think I got some further clarity - why does a Extreme Crusader hold different beliefs from a moderate?

The Extreme Crusader believes the Inner Sphere is a cesspit of barbarity (ironic, I know) and the only way to rebuild the Star League is to completely break the locals to their will. For this reason, Extreme Crusaders do not take bondsmen from the Inner Sphere.

The moderate Crusader recognises that the Inner Sphere has some things going for it, and are more willing to seek out middle ground and compromise to a certain extent. They're ok with taking bondsmen.

The extreme Wardens feel the Inner Sphere has many unique features and is willing to go against the rest of the Clans to defend the Inner Sphere way of life, even if they don't subscribe to it themselves. They're okay with bondsmen, even former mercs (e.g. Phelan).

The moderate Wardens? I need ideas for this.

The Warden philosophy is actually pretty much isolationist.  "We want to Stay Out of It".  Clans that chose NOT to compete for an invasion slot, or who still opposed the invasion vote.

but not all of those, even, because there are the Star Adders-who didn't push to join Revival, because they could count, while Ulric's wolves (Wardens) were the only ones who bothered to think "You know, it's a long trip, we should probably have a working supply line and bring enough consumables."

To me, the Warden/Crusader divide isn't what they pretend it was, it's more about who's got fatal levels of toxic optimism about the practicalities of launching an invasion with insufficient numbers of troops and no steady supply line.

IOW Tactical thinkers that are strategically blind.

(Great, even overwhelming in a fight-until they run out of ammo.)

teh real problem is that we never got to see any Wardens or Crusaders who could actually articulate their philosophy as a Philosophy.  The Crusaders wanted resources, the Wardens wanted them too.

This really wasn't expressed well when it was relevant-Ulric opposed the invasion, sure, but he ran it very practically compared to his peers-almost a third grade understanding of the logistics of expeditionary warfare. ("Look! Clan Wolf recognizes they need spare parts and ammo!!")

none of the actual, by name Crusaders actually recognized this basic fact. So how does that happen?

Clan society is full of Duellists.  That is how you make and keep rank, it's how you're measured, the more extreme Clans (Smoke Jaguar) embody this.  Duellists fight arranged, limited engagements superbly.  They don't handle sustained warfare real well.

and all the Crusaders in Operation Revival had that basic handicap...except Vlad, who recognized that working supply lines are a good thing to have., and that the enemy isn't going to play your ball-game if they don't have to.

Thus, he gets the "Moderate Crusader" tag-not because of his goals, but because he's a realist about how to achieve them (well, for a Clanner).

Same way, Ulric isn't an Extreme Warden...we didn't get to meet any who were.  He was a moderate because he recognized that he had to be practical in reaching his goals, and was pragmatic enough to handle a job he fundamentally disagreed with.

an Extremist wouldn't have done that.  wouldn't have thought about supply lines, or brought occupation forces to secure gains, they wouldn't have had any focus beyond 'make the mission fail'.

because they're extreme.

Pragmatism is a mark of Moderation.  There are no practical extremists, (though a cynical pragmatic will use-and discard-extreme rhetoric if it works to their objectives.)

The moderate takes as realistic a view of conditions as their culture will allow-they'll accept conditions they do not approve of, and seek to be successful, even in tasks they personally disagree with.  An Extremist personality will outright deny reality if it clashes with their ideals...they will also adopt a 'by any means ncessary' because 'The ends justify the Means'.

a moderate understands that the means you use, decide what ends you have to deal with next.  They'll bring supply columns and estimate their personnel needs not based on the most optimistic projections, but on pessimistic analysis, they plan to adapt to losses and plan to use strategies to reduce those losses, and they never assume the other guy is going to give them favorable treatment or adhere to their particular cultural hangups.

we didn't get to meet any extreme wardens, because they don't exist-the martial culture of the Clans as a whole simply doesn't allow for that to take root.

The divide isn't between 'warden' and 'Crusader', it's between 'Realist' and 'Idealist'.

[Cannonshop]

big speech done...now the breakdown;

Clan Jade Falcon (up to sometime before Malvina): Moderate crusader.  This is why they were successful-they began with an idealized view, but didn't stick to it.  Elias Crichell used Extreme rhetoric, but hedged his bets and acknowledged that the enemy has a say too-unlike Leo Showers or Lincoln Osis, Crichell actually recognized that he'd need more than a short division's worth of forces to hold whatever he took, and made steps to deal with supply issues.  the Falcons also were among the lighter hands when it came to occupation tactics because they recognized their fundamental manpower shortage.

Moderate Crusader.

Clan Smoke Jaguar: Idealists.  Not in a nice way, but idealists.  They assumed ideal conditions would prevail, they underestimated not only their enemies, but their own difficulties, did not secure or construct a good pipeline for resupply, and used techniques that REQUIRE lots of manpower to make it work for their occupations.  (seriously, you need MORE guys the more you crush the peasants.)

Extreme Crusader.

Clan Steel Viper: nice thoughts, means well, complete idealists, underestimated not only what they'd need and what they'd run out of, but didn't put much effort into learning the conditions on the ground because they thought they already knew through whatsername's mystery book.

Extreme Crusader

Clan NovaCat: Moderate Crusader, flips to Warden after an ass-beating, but they were really very idealistic in their own way, and made the exact same mistakes their Crusader rivals and Brethren made when it came to things like a working supply line, sufficient manpower, and realistic objectives.  They get 'moderate' because they were hands-off on occupations and therefore didn't strain themselves to death pretending they were in the Homeworlds.

Moderate Crusader/Moderate Warden (depending on era).

Clan Diamond Shark: Moderate Crusader, shifting to moderately apolitical.  Ultimate expression of being pragmatic after a while, but they also misunderstood the job when they voted in favor of the invasion-but not so much that they ignored the idea that maybe one ought to have a working supply line.

Moderate/Apolitical

Clan Ghost Bear: Moderate Crusader.  Even after their 'warden flip' they're still trying to restore the Star League, with the very pragmatic view of "Hey, if we can get them to like us, we don't have to fight them all the time and we can focus on the REAL enemy!"  They began with the Crusader idealism that left them short of supplies, but they used smart occupation methods to minimize the problem.  This, of course, got them 'warden' as an official camp, but the Bears are very MODERATE-which is how and why they're successful.

Moderate.

[Alan Grant]

Eh... sorry I don't think bondsman is a good enough metric either. Because some Clans just don't have freeborn warriors and don't take bondsmen for THAT reason. Truthfully, I regard the Falcons and Jaguars as being similar in their level of devotion to the Crusader cause. But one is ok with freeborn warriors and one is not. So one took Spheroids as bondsman, and one (mostly) didn't.


For me the breakdown looks something like this:


Crusaders


Extreme Crusader (sometimes the expression "fanatical" or "aggressive Crusader" appears in canon text): We want to tear down the Spheroid way of life. We want to tear down their governments, societal structures, all of it. We will strip them of surnames. We will strive to organize them into castes. They will be assimilated into the Clan Way and accept our rule. Or they will be punished. This is a conquest, pure and simple. They have a matter of days/months to comply. We will also bring our lower castes into the Inner Sphere and they will live on the paradise worlds of the Inner Sphere and also help us rule over the Spheroids.

     Extreme Crusader Clans: Smoke Jaguars, Jade Falcons, the most aggressive Diamond Sharks in 3050 under Khan Ian Hawker, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Fire Mandrill's Crusader Kindraa. All Homeworld Clanners adhering to the Aggressor philosophy after the Wars of Reaving.

Moderate Crusader: We want them to obey our rule now. Changing them to the Clan Way will take time, so we are prepared to try to do it in stages rather than overnight. It might even take generations to achieve their assimilation. If we run into too much resistance, we might make adjustments to our plans in order to build a favorable relationship with our Spheroids. We don't want them to all rise up in rebellion at once, so we're prepared to be patient about this. We will also bring our lower castes into the Inner Sphere, and they will live better lives for it, working alongside their Spheroid counterparts will be a challenge, but the Inner Sphere is a paradise compared to the Homeworlds.

     Moderate Crusader Clans: Hell's Horses, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats and Steel Vipers Crusaders in 3050. Crusader Wolves after the Refusal War, probably the Star Adders. Clan Cloud Cobra (the Crusader-oriented Cloisters)

Isolationist Crusader: The Inner Sphere is a threat, a contamination of the Clan Way. We should remain separate from them.

     Isolationist Crusader Clans: The Homeworld Clans, those adhering to the Bastion philosophy after the Wars of Reaving. EDIT: Moved Clan Blood Spirit here


Wardens


Moderate Warden: We think the Inner Sphere needs our protection. Now or at some point. We'd like to work with them to restore the Star League or at least to build a better future. That would be nice, if we all worked together toward the same goals right? We don't want to enforce our will upon them. We want to work with them toward a better future. We believe that Kerensky meant for us to be protectors of the Inner Sphere.

     Moderate Warden Clans: Ghost Bears after 3054, Clan Cloud Cobra (Tongo Cloister, some others), Clan Snow Raven, Clan Diamond Shark (after Ian Hawker's influence fades/Clan Sea Fox, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Steel Vipers (Wardens and those following Sanra Mercer's vision)

Isolationist Warden: We don't think Kerensky ever meant for the Clans to tread on Inner Sphere soil again, we think we should remain separate and apart. If push came to shove, we would come to their aid, perhaps.

     Isolationist Warden Clans: Anasaz Cloister (Clan Cloud Cobra), Clan Fire Mandrill Warden Kindraa, Steel Viper Wardens, Clan Wolf in 3050, Clan Coyote

Extreme Warden: We will defend the Inner Sphere from all threats today, even from other Clans. Let them call us traitors, we don't care.

     Extreme Warden Clans: Clan Wolf-In-Exile, Clan Nova Cat, those who join the Republic of the Sphere after the Jihad

[BrianDavion]

.... Wow Cannonship did you read the same material I did? Because there's no way you can and claim with a straight face that Vald Ward was at the forefront of logistics.
the wolves where literally the last clan in the inner sphere to begin shifting production to the Inner Sphere, and thus lack of forward thinking hurt them

[Cannonshop]

.... Wow Cannonship did you read the same material I did? Because there's no way you can and claim with a straight face that Vald Ward was at the forefront of logistics.
the wolves where literally the last clan in the inner sphere to begin shifting production to the Inner Sphere, and thus lack of forward thinking hurt them

Brian, Vlad had to start from pretty close to nothing, and Ulric took most of the lower caste they brought and sent them with Phelan, it takes TIME to get that stuff moving again.  On the other hand, Vlad's forces weren't starved for spares and ammo, while the Falcons, Vipers, Bears, all the clans who put up factories in their OZ's absolutely were.

aside from just saying "Yah, but Mike Stackpole loved the wolves so he magicked it in without explanation and we should just go with it"  the more pleasant option is to explain their still having ammo, spare parts, 'mechs, fighters, fuel for their ships and so on, is that they had a supply column going from the homeworlds and it was actually well run *and thus they didn't NEED to put up local factories for a while.

Basically, Vlad understood enough about logistics, that he didn't immediately race off to leave his supply columns struggling to catch up-he didn't overextend as soon as he was in charge...something most of his contemporaries did frequently when you read "Invading Clans", "Crusader Clans", "Warden Clans", "Warriors of Kerensky" and the novels.

[Hellraiser]

Vlad was only in charge after the Refusal losses & was dealing w/ Falcons, Bears, Horses, & Hellions all itching for action.

While I don't agree with it, I do see why we didn't see massive movement in the late 50's.

And prior to 56, Ulric had all of 4 years to look at potential upgrade locations.

Finally the Wolves were stuck w/ the LEAST Developed/Defended/Prestigious OZ as "punishment" by the Jag IlKhan originally.

Unlike the Falcons, they didn't inherit some huge industrial worlds.

They also didn't have a secret plan to migrate to the IS like the Bears did & their homeworlds holdings were semi-safe.

Most of their factory locations were newer & smaller & semi-dismantled by the FRR.

While I'm not "happy" about it, I can actually see why they didn't get a lot up & running quickly.

By the time Vlad had been in office a while & had rebuilt the Touman even a small amount, the FCCW had broken out, there was the Falcon Incursion going on that he jumped in on, & then the Jihad broke out.

Now, all that said, it would have been nice to see the Wolves have some sort of early movement seeing as how they were the leaders of Op:Revival in the best position.
Not saying they should have moved everything but some fluff about a FRR factory being the first one converted in say 3055 might have been nice for even 1 line being operational & then having to curb their expansion once 57 rolls around.

[Metallgewitter]

It also seems that the wolves never thought of really upgrading their OZ. Per Wars of Reaving even in 3067 they got huge supply convoys full of material from the homeworlds. Meanwhile the Falcons and Bears took the opportunity to use the industry that was there while also upgrading it which was for both a painful process. Heck the Turkina TRO hints that Falcon trueborn refused to pilot a Sudeten-build Turkinas and rather waited for Ironhold-build ones. And while you can argue that the Wolves had a rather "deindustrialized" zone they had planets like Rasalhague, Tamar and other manufacturing sites under their wing. But they let them rot. Ulric might have been a visionary but he clearly forgot some other aspects in actually ruling the IS conquests.

On the divide: one might actually add if said Clans could see the real problems. For example the Jaguars had begun to feel a resource crunch right before Revival kicked off which was the ground for the development of the Protomech. So maybe it is less about Warden / Crusader but rather "Damn I want some of those fancy resources". some books give hints that the Is was like Eden for the Clans (or rather they thought the IS would be like that) so it might also be a case of "We need a reason to satisfy our greed so now we are Crusader" (roughly speaken) In that case the then Sharks like Barbara Sennet might then be rather extreme Crusaders

[tassa_kay]

Extreme Crusader Clans: Clan Blood Spirit

Gonna disagree with this one. The Blood Spirits didn't especially clamor for invasion (though they did participate in the REVIVAL Trials, pretty much every Clan did; only the Ravens and Adders didn't, and that's just because the Ravens didn't have the military strength to do so and the Adders withdrew when the other Clans refused their [wise] suggestion to invade collectively) and in fact have been pretty consistently adamant about their isolationism (they didn't even come out of their isolation until the Burrock Absorption).

There's also mention in the Spirits' FM:CC that Galaxy Commander Josh Kemp of Omicron Provisional Galaxy won his position by challenging his predecessor in a Trial of Grievance over that commander's attempts to convince the Khan that the Spirits should compete against the other Clans for a place in the invasion. While this conflicts with the later-published OTP: REVIVAL Trials, I still posit that this speaks volumes about the Spirits' general stance on the subject.

They clearly and unequivocally fall into your Isolationist Crusader Clans category.

Sharks like Barbara Sennet might then be rather extreme Crusaders

Absolutely not. Barbara Sennet in fact steered her Clan away from Ian Hawker's extremist Crusader stance. It's literally one of the most notable things about her.

[Alan Grant]

That's fair, I was having trouble finding canon material that clarified the Blood Spirit viewpoint. I missed that paragraph on Josh Kemp and I agree that it certainly adds some nuance to the Spirit mindset on the Crusader cause. Thanks Tassa.

[Church14]

Moderate Crusader Clans: Hell's Horses, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats and Steel Vipers Crusaders in 3050. Crusader Wolves after the Refusal War, probably the Star Adders. Clan Cloud Cobra (the Crusader-oriented Cloisters)

Are we considering what they said they believe in or what their actions?
Wolf self-description before Refusal => mixed leaning warden
Wolf self-description post refusal => moderate Crusader

Wolf actions from 3050 onwards => extremist Crusader.

They took the most worlds, attacked earlier during invasion waves, came closest to Terra. Then never adapted or reached out to the civilians of their holdings. They excised their warden elements out. Come dark ages, they formed the Empire partially so they could be closer to Terra. Their way of leading the Empire was “tempered” to make spheroid adjustment to their rule easier, which still involved them ruling with an iron fist and forcing the locals to comply 100% with their vision.

EDIT: Right. They were the only clan that said “no way. We won’t abide by the great refusal. We’ll see you after the truce.”


Also, Horses Suzerain approach kind of defies category here. They aren’t forcing anything from the locals. But still were working towards Terra.

[Alan Grant]

Have you read the Blood of Kerensky trilogy? Because they explain their actions, or rather Ulric Kerensky and Natasha Kerensky do.

Essentially the Clans agreed that the Wolves (being the Clan of the Kerensky's) would be part of the invasion no matter what. They didn't even have to compete in the Trials to decide which Clans would participate. They were by default going to be one of the Invading Clans.

Buried within that was a presumption that Operation Revival would succeed, that the Clans would take Terra.

From that point the Wolves decided the best way to play this was to win. To be the Clan that got to Terra first, and then they'd be in the ultimate position to decide how this would go from that point onward. At one point in one of those novels either Natasha or Ulric Kerensky tells Phelan Kell, then a bondsman, that if the Wolves got to Terra first, they'd be in a leadership position to dictate what happens now. If another Clan like the Smoke Jaguars got to Terra first, they'd basically just continue on burning down the entire Inner Sphere, past Terra. They'd be in a leadership position as the IlClan to continue to push the extreme Crusader agenda.

The Wolves didn't really have a choice, and playing slacker during the invasion didn't serve the Warden cause much either. So, they did the opposite.

Can we poke holes in that logic, especially with the benefit of hindsight? Sure, absolutely. But at the time they decided it was the path they would take and to some degree it made sense, at least to them. It is what it is. Naturally with those events so distant in the past and all of the flaws of the Clan intelligence and planning... it feels so obvious that Operation Revival wasn't going to work, that it would falter. But at the time, most Clans generally believed the Clans were going to pull this off and make it to Terra.

Then a few years later, Ulric Kerensky saw the Refusal War as a great way to gut the Crusader, which were agitating to somehow overturn 15-year treaty, and to gut both the Falcons and the growing Crusader movement within his own Clan. The surviving Warden Wolves obeyed their orders to head to Ark-Royal and join the Inner Sphere.

Post-Refusal War, Clan Wolf gets stood back up by Vlad Ward with the Crusaders in charge of the Clan, and absolutely everything about the Wolves changed. Most of what we think of as Clan Wolf's actions in the late 3050s-3080s at that point you gotta lay at the feet of the Crusaders, Vlad Ward etc.

So keep in mind, the Wolves wanted to take Terra first, for Warden reasons. To people like Ulric Kerensky and Natasha Kerensky the worlds in the Clans' path toward Terra were already casualties of all this. At the time they saw it was inevitable that one Clan would during Operation Revival. But they wanted to be the one to take a leadership role over the Clans and decide what would happen post-conquest of Terra.

[Metallgewitter]

The Ulric wolves probably also profited from the fact that the other invader Clans had taken setbacks against the "barbarians of the IS" (Twycross, Pandora, Wolcott) while the Wolves baiscally never lost a battle on their way. Though one could argue that Phelan helped and that the Wolves assaulted the "weakest" part of the IS. As Alan said the success of the Wolves gave them way more influence over the remaining Clans. Though they tried to chain him to their cause he outmaneuvered them in that regard. And the Wolves fair treatment of their captured populations at least rubbed of on the Bears when they began rethinking their treatment of captured Rasalhague planets and especially soldiers

[Church14]

Have you read the Blood of Kerensky trilogy? Because they explain their actions, or rather Ulric Kerensky and Natasha Kerensky do.

Essentially the Clans agreed that the Wolves (being the Clan of the Kerensky's) would be part of the invasion no matter what. They didn't even have to compete in the Trials to decide which Clans would participate. They were by default going to be one of the Invading Clans.

Buried within that was a presumption that Operation Revival would succeed, that the Clans would take Terra.

From that point the Wolves decided the best way to play this was to win. To be the Clan that got to Terra first, and then they'd be in the ultimate position to decide how this would go from that point onward. At one point in one of those novels either Natasha or Ulric Kerensky tells Phelan Kell, then a bondsman, that if the Wolves got to Terra first, they'd be in a leadership position to dictate what happens now. If another Clan like the Smoke Jaguars got to Terra first, they'd basically just continue on burning down the entire Inner Sphere, past Terra. They'd be in a leadership position as the IlClan to continue to push the extreme Crusader agenda.

The Wolves didn't really have a choice, and playing slacker during the invasion didn't serve the Warden cause much either. So, they did the opposite.

Can we poke holes in that logic, especially with the benefit of hindsight? Sure, absolutely. But at the time they decided it was the path they would take and to some degree it made sense, at least to them. It is what it is. Naturally with those events so distant in the past and all of the flaws of the Clan intelligence and planning... it feels so obvious that Operation Revival wasn't going to work, that it would falter. But at the time, most Clans generally believed the Clans were going to pull this off and make it to Terra.

Then a few years later, Ulric Kerensky saw the Refusal War as a great way to gut the Crusader, which were agitating to somehow overturn 15-year treaty, and to gut both the Falcons and the growing Crusader movement within his own Clan. The surviving Warden Wolves obeyed their orders to head to Ark-Royal and join the Inner Sphere.

Post-Refusal War, Clan Wolf gets stood back up by Vlad Ward with the Crusaders in charge of the Clan, and absolutely everything about the Wolves changed. Most of what we think of as Clan Wolf's actions in the late 3050s-3080s at that point you gotta lay at the feet of the Crusaders, Vlad Ward etc.

So keep in mind, the Wolves wanted to take Terra first, for Warden reasons. To people like Ulric Kerensky and Natasha Kerensky the worlds in the Clans' path toward Terra were already casualties of all this. At the time they saw it was inevitable that one Clan would during Operation Revival. But they wanted to be the one to take a leadership role over the Clans and decide what would happen post-conquest of Terra.

Ive read BoK, yes. All of what you brought up is why I specified their self descriptions or their deeds. Step back and pretend you never had any Phelan or Ulrice Point of view. All we know is their actions. Their actions, from the day they set foot in the sphere, were those of diehard crusaders. They never accommodated the sphere. They never built a relationship with the sphere. They, at every turn, forced the spheroid populations into submission and into their way of life. Rather brutally too. At least for a while, they had Jaguars to look better than to not appear so awful. 

We know they were, laughable as the plot point is, forced to participate. They decided that if they must participate, then they would win the race to Terra to become ilclan first in order to run damage control. How do they do that? By being the most crusadery of the crusaders and beat them at being crusaders.

Not one ounce of their desire to be warden shows up in deed. Which is fine. We have the RasDom, Foxes, and Nova Cats as warden examples. So we get the Horses, Wolves, Falcons, and Ravens as crusaders long term.

[tassa_kay]

We have the RasDom, Foxes, and Nova Cats as warden examples. So we get the Horses, Wolves, Falcons, and Ravens as crusaders long term.

But the Horses and Ravens aren't Crusaders. Well, not really. Maybe? Somewhat?

The Horses' leadership (specifically, Malavai Fletcher and his supporters) during the invasion years most certainly was, but the rank-and-file were Warden, and the Horses shifted to full-on Warden after his death. I would even go so far as to say that, despite their eleventh-hour decision to want to compete for ilClan, they were still acting like Wardens, taking a hands-off approach to their populace and (despite the recent novel completely ignoring this fact, one of that novel's most egregious flaws IMO) having good inter-caste relations.

That said, the Horses did certainly flirt with Crusader-ism again due to their forced alliance with Malvina, which muddies the waters for them a bit, and it doesn't look like Fulk Lassanerra is going to be an improvement in that area. But we have James Cobb 2.0 waiting in the wings (Peter Cobb is such an awful character, he's literally just the second coming of James Cobb), and they're already cleaning house quite a bit, so who the hell knows where they're going to end up?

The Ravens were always Wardens (at least on paper), but opportunistically voted for Crusader policies because, well, they're also politicians and schemers. And despite their typical Clanner attitude about things, they didn't conquer the Outworlds populace outright, but worked with them and protected them from outside threats (FedSuns and especially the Combine), which is about as Warden as it gets. It's odd to me that they've chosen to stand with Alaric, especially now, and it doesn't really jive with any of their previously-established characterization.

This just underscores why the Crusader/Warden dynamic has become largely irrelevant and almost silly post-invasion. The Clans have only fragmented apart since REVIVAL, and certain recent writing decisions and heel turns have been very... abrupt and inconsistent, and very, very plot-driven as opposed to natural evolutions.

[Cannonshop]

But the Horses and Ravens aren't Crusaders. Well, not really. Maybe? Somewhat?

The Horses' leadership (specifically, Malavai Fletcher and his supporters) during the invasion years most certainly was, but the rank-and-file were Warden, and the Horses shifted to full-on Warden after his death. I would even go so far as to say that, despite their eleventh-hour decision to want to compete for ilClan, they were still acting like Wardens, taking a hands-off approach to their populace and (despite the recent novel completely ignoring this fact, one of that novel's most egregious flaws IMO) having good inter-caste relations.

That said, the Horses did certainly flirt with Crusader-ism again due to their forced alliance with Malvina, which muddies the waters for them a bit, and it doesn't look like Fulk Lassanerra is going to be an improvement in that area. But we have James Cobb 2.0 waiting in the wings (Peter Cobb is such an awful character, he's literally just the second coming of James Cobb), and they're already cleaning house quite a bit, so who the hell knows where they're going to end up?

The Ravens were always Wardens (at least on paper), but opportunistically voted for Crusader policies because, well, they're also politicians and schemers. And despite their typical Clanner attitude about things, they didn't conquer the Outworlds populace outright, but worked with them and protected them from outside threats (FedSuns and especially the Combine), which is about as Warden as it gets. It's odd to me that they've chosen to stand with Alaric, especially now, and it doesn't really jive with any of their previously-established characterization.

This just underscores why the Crusader/Warden dynamic has become largely irrelevant and almost silly post-invasion. The Clans have only fragmented apart since REVIVAL, and certain recent writing decisions and heel turns have been very... abrupt and inconsistent, and very, very plot-driven as opposed to natural evolutions.

They're measuring by behavior, not stated motivation.

I suppose it may be unpopular as a measure, but in general, you are what you do, not what you claim to do.  Intentions mean less than nothing if they are not expressed by actions.

in ACTION  Church14 is absolutely on-point.  The Horses, Ravens, and even Wolves act the conquering crusader regardless of what their dogmas, doctrines, internal monologues, or proclamations say-the Rhetoric is just Rhetoric, what you DO decides who you are-from a certain point of view.

Mind that I tend to hold that point of view myself.  I don't pretend to be moderate about it either.  an observer in the 31st or 32nd Century looking at the Conduct of the Hell's Horses, or the Snow Ravens, would say "Yeah, they're an Invading Clan and they're hostile to my way of life, personal freedom, and personal choice.  They are Crusaders."

That's the behaviour.

It doesn't and wouldn't matter two farts in a hurricane if they're loudly chanting Warden Rhetoric while doing what they've been doing-except, of course, to underscore their outright penetrating Hypocrisy to that outside observer.

It's your Deeds that Define you, not your words.

crap, I'm going to hell for this...

look at the Ravens, for a moment, as if you didn't have access to their internal monologues and didn't have omniscience.  They showed up in the Outworlds under a flag of truce, then took over. They've killed civilians in reprisals and they have not integrated into the nation they've parasitized.

What do you call that behavior?

Hell's Horses: same thing, only they conquered it from another conqueror instead of using manipulative diplomacy and enormous gunboats.

compare to how the Ghost Bears integrated into the Dominion.

compare the two.

what would a rational person who has only an outsider's viewpoint without the omniscience, determine?

[Church14]

But the Horses and Ravens aren't Crusaders. Well, not really. Maybe? Somewhat?

The Horses' leadership (specifically, Malavai Fletcher and his supporters) during the invasion years most certainly was, but the rank-and-file were Warden, and the Horses shifted to full-on Warden after his death. I would even go so far as to say that, despite their eleventh-hour decision to want to compete for ilClan, they were still acting like Wardens, taking a hands-off approach to their populace and (despite the recent novel completely ignoring this fact, one of that novel's most egregious flaws IMO) having good inter-caste relations.

That said, the Horses did certainly flirt with Crusader-ism again due to their forced alliance with Malvina, which muddies the waters for them a bit, and it doesn't look like Fulk Lassanerra is going to be an improvement in that area. But we have James Cobb 2.0 waiting in the wings (Peter Cobb is such an awful character, he's literally just the second coming of James Cobb), and they're already cleaning house quite a bit, so who the hell knows where they're going to end up?

Horses kind of feel like they check the Crusader box when someone is looking and then stop caring until the next inspection.

And I’ll concede on the ravens. I’m pretty bad with their lore

[tassa_kay]

snip

Leaving aside the somewhat-flawed take on the Horses and Ravens, I think an even more important flaw with this entire premise is conflating “Warden” with “nice guys who won’t conquer and force their way of life on their population”. Of course there’s a LOT of overlap, but the Venn diagram for this isn’t a circle. The Crusader/Warden divide was about whether or not the Clans would force the Star League on the Inner Sphere. It doesn’t say anywhere in the Warden philosophy that they wouldn’t conquer the Inner Sphere at all. If that were the case, why did pretty much all of the Warden Clans (except the Ravens and the Cobras) compete for a slot in REVIVAL? One could argue that the best way to protect the Inner Sphere from outside threats would be to conquer and rule it.