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BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: truetanker on 22 October 2017, 13:01:04

Title: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 22 October 2017, 13:01:04
Well we needed a new one...

So far nothing's new for our clan, how about your excursions?

To be truthful, I've been busy with solving the " Zeta problem ". ( What survives when a clan dissolves to reform a new one. ) I have shed some light on this predicament and have so far found little to report as of yet.

But fear naught, I shall triumphantly be rewarded soon enough, trothkin! Now where did that datapak go again.... *mumbles off*...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 22 October 2017, 18:39:05
Glad to hear it!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sancozela on 24 October 2017, 02:11:20
We would like to always find you.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 24 October 2017, 11:28:26
And what, prey tell, does that cryptic message mean, trothkin?

Was I lost, was there a search pattern?

Just curious, which is what happens to Nova Cats and certain Jaquars that look.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 04 November 2017, 18:07:22
For me I am trying to finish a converted Nova of Grendel's and ? BA(Gnomes or Elementals).  I am in the Clan Invasion era while doing so.  I have a Grendel-A and -B and was considering what the last three Grendel's would be.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Ruger on 04 November 2017, 19:49:41
For me I am trying to finish a converted Nova of Grendel's and ? BA(Gnomes or Elementals).  I am in the Clan Invasion era while doing so.  I have a Grendel-A and -B and was considering what the last three Grendel's would be.

I rather like the Prime, and the D (although I'd rather the ER PPC be in the right arm to replicate the rest of the configs)...

But I'm most especially fond of the H (but preferably with an improved heavy large laser, and a standard SRM-4 with a ton of ammo and the last ton given to an ECM suite...however, the stock model is good too)...sure, it's got nothing beyond 15 hexes, but it's horrific up close...

Actually, what I would probably recommend to you would be another of each of the A's and B's, with a H making up the final Grendel...

Ruger
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Luciora on 06 November 2017, 22:02:38
I'm toying with the idea to get 1 more Balius and magnetized it, like I've done with several other omnimechs for all the loadouts I have parts for.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 06 November 2017, 22:57:06
I dig the idea of the balius but I loath the mini. Any other possibilities to count as it?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 08 November 2017, 06:01:34
Looking at this Clan Invasion Era Supernova, not sure if I am doing this right or not...

Nova Alpha:
Grendel-P
Grendel-A
Grendel-B
Grendel-C
Grendel-D
25x Gnome BA

Nova Bravo:
2x Epona-P
2x Epona-A
2x Epona-C
2x Huey Assault Tank
2x Mars Assault Tank
25x Elementals

All the Grendels are already built, so there is no going back there.  But everything else can be shifted, and since I am headed towards Alpha Strike with this I need to make sure that the points are matched pairs. 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 08 November 2017, 10:57:30
Looking at this Clan Invasion Era Supernova, not sure if I am doing this right or not...

I'm no AS expert, but if you're asking if your novas are assembled correctly, then yes, they are.  5 mechs/25 elementals for a mech nova.  10 vehicles/25 elementals for a vehicle nova.

Nothing wrong with five Mongrels and their 7-hex jumps,.  But in-universe, I dunno if the Horses would field that many in a star.  For more Horse flavor, I'd go with Novas, Stormcrows, and (maybe) Hellbringers.  The Nova was the original BA carrier, and the Prime and similar configurations are decent in the role with their jump capability and strong mid-/short-range firepower.

Also nothing wrong with indirect and off-board support from slow Huey and Mars tanks.  But I might also trade them for support tanks that can better keep up (or at least stay in range of) those Eponas.  The Horses originated the Enyo, which moves 6/9, is decently armored, and can throw an ER large laser downrange until its massed Streak batteries come into play.  It's one of the better Clan tanks.  The Ares is also decent but more long-range focused:  5/8, ER large laser, 25 LRMs with Art IV FCS.  There are others.

Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 08 November 2017, 15:51:08
Looking at this Clan Invasion Era Supernova, not sure if I am doing this right or not...

Nova Alpha:
Grendel-P
Grendel-A
Grendel-B
Grendel-C
Grendel-D
25x Gnome BA Gnomes CAN NOT be carried as the are ASSAULT class. Toads better anyway.

Nova Bravo:
2x Epona-P Ares
2x Epona-A
2x Epona-C
2x Badger C- C
1x Huey Assault Tank
1x Mars Assault
25x Elementals Go for 20x Gnome and 5x Toad.

Gave you a nice alternate fire support that can carry 2 Points per vee each! Literally. The Badger C's serve as APCs for the Gnomes you carry. Keeping your Ares and Badgers together should provide in depth protection for your Huey / Mars combo.

Enjoy!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 08 November 2017, 16:15:00
Gave you a nice alternate fire support that can carry 2 Points per vee each! Literally. The Badger C's serve as APCs for the Gnomes you carry. Keeping your Ares and Badgers together should provide in depth protection for your Huey / Mars combo.

Enjoy!

TT

No sure what you mean about not being able to carry the Gnomes?  On the Alpha Strike card it says CAR5 and the Grendel is an Omni. 

I do have a pair of Badger-Cs sitting around as well.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 08 November 2017, 16:20:38
Assault BA can't be carried on mechs, too heavy. 1.5 tons each.

Not sure on AS I haven't read both books yet, still reading.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 08 November 2017, 16:24:54
Ah ok, gotcha.  Don't think AS handles it the same though I could have missed that!

I do have a pair of Ares as well I think. Just gotta check in my Eponas.

Any particular reason for not taking Primes?  That quad-MPL is nasty
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 08 November 2017, 16:30:41
Assault BA can't be carried on mechs, too heavy. 1.5 tons each.

Not sure on AS I haven't read both books yet, still reading.

TT

Gnomes are heavy. Only 1.5 tons. And so they can be carried on OmniMechs, since they have a Heavy Battle Claw.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 08 November 2017, 17:45:08
I know I'm a broken record on this, but if you're a Horse, you can never go wrong with larding your Omnis up with LRM Gnomes. They are the peanut butter to OmniMechs' chocolate.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 08 November 2017, 18:22:44
I know I'm a broken record on this, but if you're a Horse, you can never go wrong with larding your Omnis up with LRM Gnomes. They are the peanut butter to OmniMechs' chocolate.
+

I'll second this.

I'll also point out that the guy asking about the force said he was making an Invasion Era unit, so no Gnome (LRM) just yet. :)

Still, the originals are nice as well.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 08 November 2017, 20:01:29
Yah, LRM Gnomes would be optimal, but not in era.  Maybe later!

Now I need to figure out which Galaxy, Cluster I am shooting for.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 09 November 2017, 15:01:07
666th Mechanized Assault Cluster, Beta Galaxy!

Of course....

 >:D

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 09 November 2017, 17:54:57
Not being biased or anything are we?   ;)

Right now I am just collecting all the pieces to get the force together, I have them all just have to locate them!  But I don't have two Ares.  I have a pair of Hachiman, some Svantovits, Shamash, Indras, but no Ares lol
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 10 November 2017, 18:23:51
So would it be better to make it so the Grendel Star, the Star of Battle Armor, and a Star of Vehicles?  Or were Hell's Horses known for prolific use of Supernovas?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 10 November 2017, 21:45:00
Or were Hell's Horses known for prolific use of Supernovas?

Yes, the Horses are probably the most prolific users of nova and supernova formations.

Horse cluster descriptions in FM: Crusader Clans indicate that _every_ ground star in a typical Horse cluster is a nova.  This is illustrated at:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Touman#Unit_Structure (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Touman#Unit_Structure)

Scroll down slightly for the wire diagrams.

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 10 November 2017, 22:43:19
Heck if ou have a Point of Aero, make it truly a combined arms. If I am reading right, Aero becomes neat in AS.

I'd replace the Ares for whatever you have in stock. Don't for get you can use older SLDF fighters as well from some Brain Caches.

Just a thought. Also I was in the wrong about the Gnomes, I saw Golems... my bad.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 10 November 2017, 23:32:08
Yes, the Horses are probably the most prolific users of nova and supernova formations.

Horse cluster descriptions in FM: Crusader Clans indicate that _every_ ground star in a typical Horse cluster is a nova.  This is illustrated at:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Touman#Unit_Structure (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Touman#Unit_Structure)

Scroll down slightly for the wire diagrams.

I just saw that, thank you!  Very much into their Novas. 

Heck if ou have a Point of Aero, make it truly a combined arms. If I am reading right, Aero becomes neat in AS.

I'd replace the Ares for whatever you have in stock. Don't for get you can use older SLDF fighters as well from some Brain Caches.

Just a thought. Also I was in the wrong about the Gnomes, I saw Golems... my bad.

TT

Something else to keep in mind after some reading, is that each Badger (C)-C has the IT5, so can only carry one point of BA.  Am I missing something?  Or is it because it is an Omni that it can carry two, one inside one riding on the outside?

I will just keep the Ares in there.  I have time.


Nova Alpha:
Grendel-P
Grendel-A
Grendel-B
Grendel-C
Grendel-D
25x Elemental/Gnome BA (Thinking Gnomes for the guys who need to close like the Prime and Bravo.  Elementals for the guys who are going to be hanging back like the Alpha.)

Nova Bravo:
2x Ares *support for Badgers and Indirect Fire
2x Epona-A *missile support/Indirect Fire w/BA transport
2x Epona-Prime *direct fire support and BA transport
2x Badger C-C *BA transport and minor Indirect Fire
1x Huey Assault Tank *Arty and Missile support
1x Mars Assault Tank *Just a nasty Assault Tank
25x Elementals/Gnomes (not sure on the combo yet)

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 10 November 2017, 23:51:08
Yes, they are Omni, but they are way better than APCs.

Keep your Epona A and C.

A has TAG, 2x LRM-20
C Has TAG, ECM and a ER PPC

Nasty combo is combine both points together, one each. A and C per Point, x2 + Toads!

In this case if you went with:
Nova Alpha:
Grendel-P
Grendel-A
Grendel-B
Grendel-C
Grendel-D
25x Elemental/Gnome BA (Thinking Gnomes for the guys who need to close like the Prime and Bravo.  Elementals for the guys who are going to be hanging back like the Alpha.)

Nova Bravo:
2x Ares *support for Badgers and Indirect Fire
2x Epona-A *missile support/Indirect Fire w/BA transport
2x Epona-Prime *direct fire support and BA transport
2x Badger C-C *BA transport and minor Indirect Fire
2x Svantovit IFV *faster than Eponas, and still has some Indirect Fire
1x Huey Assault Tank *Arty and Missile support
1x Mars Assault Tank *Just a nasty Assault Tank
25x Elementals/Gnomes (not sure on the combo yet)

You could add another Star of IIC/ Klondike  to reflect a Binary with Tank support. Even going as far as saying they are being transported by a Lion WD dropper. The Binary of BA is being tagged along by a Sassanid, with maybe a Carrier to assign a Aero Star for support.

Lion WD carries 10 mechs, 12 tanks... 2 being that Huey/Mars A4 support.

I use these a lot.  >:D

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nav_Alpha on 11 November 2017, 00:45:30
Hail Trothkin!
This is all very helpful. My campaign has almost made its way to Operation Scour and I was thinking of assigning my mercs to the Marik front, which includes Hella Horses’ contribution to the Coalition; the 91st Mechanised.

Any tips for building this storied cluster? I was thinking Elemental and infantry heavy? Some vehicles for fast striking/recon?
Suggestions appreciated
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 11 November 2017, 01:01:21
Yes, they are Omni, but they are way better than APCs.

Keep your Epona A and C.

A has TAG, 2x LRM-20
C Has TAG, ECM and a ER PPC

Nasty combo is combine both points together, one each. A and C per Point, x2 + Toads!

In this case if you went with:
You could add another Star of IIC/ Klondike  to reflect a Binary with Tank support. Even going as far as saying they are being transported by a Lion WD dropper. The Binary of BA is being tagged along by a Sassanid, with maybe a Carrier to assign a Aero Star for support.

Lion WD carries 10 mechs, 12 tanks... 2 being that Huey/Mars A4 support.

I use these a lot.  >:D

TT

Wait, you are saying add IICs/Klondike(what does that mean, like Battlemechs such as the Black Python or maybe a Thunder Stallion)?  Is that a totally separate Star?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 11 November 2017, 02:16:30
Hail Trothkin!
This is all very helpful. My campaign has almost made its way to Operation Scour and I was thinking of assigning my mercs to the Marik front, which includes Hella Horses’ contribution to the Coalition; the 91st Mechanised.

Any tips for building this storied cluster? I was thinking Elemental and infantry heavy? Some vehicles for fast striking/recon?
Suggestions appreciated

Well, here's what we know about the 91st:

- They're a Mechanized Assault Cluster, so they'll have mostly heavy/assault 'Mechs and tanks
- They use both Elementals and conventional infantry
- They're four Trinaries in strength, rather than the usual five (at least in FM: CC)
- The Galaxy they hail from specializes in close-quarters combat and defensive warfare, and regularly makes use of artillery support

Based on that, I'd say do Trinaries Alpha and Beta as a pair of heavy/assault 'Mech Trinaries with OmniMech Novas as the command Stars and secondline 'Mechs for the other two Stars, a tank/PBI Supernova as Trinary Gamma, and then a heavy ASF Trinary for Delta.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nav_Alpha on 11 November 2017, 02:27:00
Why secondline Mechs? Isn’t Alpha Galaxy the Clan’s elite force?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 11 November 2017, 02:32:47
The 91st Mechanized looks like they fell under Epsilon Galaxy, a Hell's Horses Defense force.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nav_Alpha on 11 November 2017, 02:33:34
Whoops! Just realised I typed 91st when I actually meant the 11th Mechanized Cavalry! My fault!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 11 November 2017, 02:46:15
Ah, well, in that case I'd build it as a standard Mechanized Cavalry Cluster with the newest and most cutting-edge equipment available to the Horses at the time. And I'd compose at least two-thirds of the component Stars of the three 'Mech Trinaries as Novas.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nav_Alpha on 11 November 2017, 02:53:32
So, say:

* Nova: medium/heavy OmniMechs plus Elementals
* Nova: as above
* Light/medium fighter trinary
* Straight OmniMech trinary (heavy/assaults)
* Vehicle/conventional infantry supernova
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 11 November 2017, 03:00:59
I think I'd do something a bit more like:

Trinary Alpha - Fast heavy/medium Nova, fast medium/light Nova, fast medium/light 'Mech Star
Trinary Beta - Same
Trinary Gamma - Fast assault Nova, fast heavy/medium Nova, fast medium/light 'Mech Star
Trinary Delta - Light/fast medium ASF Star (x3)
Trinary Epsilon - Pure Omni Armor Supernova w/ heavy jump infantry
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nav_Alpha on 11 November 2017, 03:02:31
I think I'd do something a bit more like:

Trinary Alpha - Fast heavy/medium Nova, fast medium/light Nova, fast medium/light 'Mech Star
Trinary Beta - Same
Trinary Gamma - Fast assault Nova, fast heavy/medium Nova, fast medium/light 'Mech Star
Trinary Delta - Light/fast medium ASF Star (x3)
Trinary Epsilon - Pure Omni Armor Supernova w/ heavy jump infantry

This... this I like a lot. Particularly excited about Bearhunter AC equipped jump infantry.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 11 November 2017, 13:55:26
@ Nav Alpha: Project considered on the To-do list!

Nav buddy, I'll have them done by Monday at the least, check your PMs.

@ Armond: IIC / Klondike means just that, secondline mechs and those leftover from Operation: Klondike. When the formation of the clans started, this includes any Royals that may still be around and before early clantech came about.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 11 November 2017, 16:06:39
But you recommend adding a Star's worth to my current Supernova and turn it into a Trinary/whatever 2 Novas + Star of Mechs equals?

I love IICs and other Clan standard battlemechs, just curious as to why add a Star of Secondline to this?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 11 November 2017, 17:22:55
Don't forget by Scour the Horses are using ProtoMechs (atleast I believe so), so those are possible for use as well.

How exactly the Horses were deploying them is still sort of up in the air (as part of a Mech Star? As part of Nova, etc).
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 11 November 2017, 19:04:37
For the humiliations of others, of course! Imagine being beaten by a lowly Hunchback IIC, or the Hoplite-4Cb or even an Warhammer- 7A / Marauder-2R!

These are some good ones you can use!

Hope these help!

Basic idea is most people never consider these. Which should allow you some leeway. " It's only a Secondliner... so I'll assign a lesser mech to counter it. " But when it takes that mech out....

To be honest, I'd assign a Binary of Mech, making one them a Nova, assign another separate Star as support, adding a single Nova Tank Star as support, finally assigning a complete Aero Star and a Rouge Artillery Point as backup. I'd also would assign them transport in the way of a Carrier, an a Sassanid and a Lion WD dropper with a single Odyssey jumper. Last Star of BA is considered Support for the grounded droppers. If you don't need the Huey / Mars then they'd be there too, ready for that fire mission. If you need to add Proto's, well other than the Arcadia, no other transport has them... so maybe you could run a modified Broadsword as transport.

Again, hope these leave you wanting more.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 11 November 2017, 21:25:43
Are you describing a way to a Cluster here? 

Binary:
Nova (Mech and BA)
Star (Mech)
Star (Support)

Trinary:
Nova (Armor and Infantry/BA)
Star (BA)
Star (Aero)

So in regards to mechs to use, I have a pretty extensive amount of mechs at my disposal.  What about the Corvis?  I think it is a great mech as a support brawler.  UAC10 plus two medium pulse lasers.  That's pretty nasty.




Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 11 November 2017, 22:08:14
No.

A single Binary that has a Nova in it, with an additional Star for support. Adding a Tank Nova, a single Aero Star and a single Artillery Tank Point.

Are you describing a way to a Cluster here?

This:

Binary:
Nova (Mech and BA)
Star (Support)

Support:
Nova (Armor and Infantry/BA)
Star (Aero)
Point Artillery

Dropship: when grounded
Security Star (BA)

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 11 November 2017, 23:13:47
So with a Nova of 5 Grendels and 25 BA, what would you suggest for their Support Star? 

A combination of mech and armor maybe?  A Mad Dog, Corvis, Thunder Stallion, 2 Hachiman, and maybe a point of BA?

-Mad Dog - Star Commander, plenty of Missile Support and some additional direct support as well for med-short ranges.  Seems an appropriate ride for a COmmander of a Support Star.
-Corvis - The only Brawler in here, mostly meant as a deterrent; UAC10 and MPLs are nice.  Jump capability does a body good too.
-Thunder Stallion - Totem mech with quad-LRM15s and a short ranged Flak weapon, that LB20-X AC though...
-Hachiman x2 - more long ranged back-up for this star, dual LRM-20s and some short ranged defense in the form of ERMLs and SRMs.  Has the right speed to keep up too.
-Glass Spider/Kraken - A pair of battlemechs which can really piss off some ASF, especially the Kraken.  BTW I have both of these in Unseen form, so would love to add one of them.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 11 November 2017, 23:27:08
More like Highlander IIC, Urbanmech IIC, Wyvern IIC, Jenner IIC and possible a Firefly-3SLE or Corvis.

Just to see your opponents brown pants themselvs.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 11 November 2017, 23:29:54
Hmmm I have every one of those...  Seem a bit of a mismatch of things, but they all jump I think too. 

So how to justify my 5 Grendel Nova.  Command formation?  Got the 5 in purchase from Clan Diamond Shark in 3053, kind of a test of their variants?  Always fun to come up with a story.

When you said support I was considering Fire Support.

***I edited my reply that you responded to, a little more thought out in terms of what I was thinking above your last post.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 12 November 2017, 14:07:51
Stravag, your contradictions are terrible! (  ;) )

Bane 3 as Star Commander.
Bowman as artillery support.
Corvis as mobile defense.
Point of Mars XL as bodyguard.
Point of Asshur for the TAG / recon.

Idea behind these is to make a really cool unit that can provide limited AAA : Artillery / Assault / Area deniability purposes.

TT
( These are just suggestions. )
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 12 November 2017, 17:23:27
Contradictions? 

Oh dear, Bane 3 is just covered in LRMs.  My only issue here is most of that Star I would have to track down and purchase!  The Mars make sense seeing as they are the same speed as those mechs, so can provide that bodyguard role.  I love the Corvis...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 12 November 2017, 17:27:38
Contradictions?

Clan thread, clan names... Kraken is IS name for Bane 3.

Well what do you have of?

Also proxies can be used if agreed upon before hand.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 13 November 2017, 04:25:22
Ah sorry for that, I play both IS and Clan.

I have a decent amount of stuff that can fulfill different types of support roles(Scout, Direct Fire, Indirect Fire, etc.) I can probably list some of it out...

Commando IIC
Locust IIC
Incubus
Jenner IIC
Urbanmech IIC
Clint IIC
Corvis
Griffin IIC
Shadow Hawk IIC
Wyvern IIC
Goshawk
Glass Spider
Thresher
Rifleman IIC
Grizzly
Thunder Stallion
Highlander IIC
Nightstar

That list excludes Omnis.

Shamash
Indra
Svantovit
Zorya
Epona
Ares (inbound)
Hachiman
Ku
Oro
Ishtar
Rhino
Huey
Mars

Those are the vehicles I have off the top of my head.

So taking your template:

Binary:
Nova (Mech and BA) - 5x Grendels and 5x BA
Star (Support) - So Direct or Indirect?  Or maybe a mix of both?  This has the potential to be an all around Support Star for Alpha Strike, or a type of Fire Lance if they meet the requirements, usually having a mix of Sniper and Missile Boat for 75% of the formation. 

Support:
Nova (Armor and Infantry/BA) - 2x Ares, 2x Epona-A, 2x Epona-Prime, 2x Badger C-C, 1x Huey Assault Tank, 1x Mars Assault Tank, and 5x BA
Star (Aero) - I need to think on this one, especially since we don't play Aero right now, I have time.
Point Artillery - A Bowman?  A pair of Hueys?

Dropship: ???
Security Star (BA): Star of Elementals?



Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 13 November 2017, 15:08:18
You can use the Mars / Huey point as your Artillery Support. This should allow you to free up a space in your Tank Nova. I know it sounds weird, but most clan engagements wouldn't use them unless they were called in specifically. And then you have one, also you could simple add them to your Support Star as a Rouge unit. ( Rouge being just a name with no connections. )

What I was trying to state with the Dropper is if you do run with one on the map, you'd at least have defense support. The extra Star really is just listed on the TO&E, non-playable, unless you really need it.

Hope this helps,
TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 25 November 2017, 16:24:24
For more Horse flavor, I'd go with Novas, Stormcrows, and (maybe) Hellbringers.
It's too bad the E is the only jumping Hellbringer, with all that crit space and 5/8 speed you can have lots of fun

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=5875.msg131145#msg131145
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 26 November 2017, 18:27:26
Yeah, but if you look at how it can be deployed with a reasonable support, it provides a stable anchor.

Such as, we Horses, usage of Tanks, Protos and Infantry, both Conventional and Battle Armored. Otherwise, others would just see it as lacklustered!

Try it with Summoner HH, Parash, paired Hadurs, a Roc 4, paired Procyon Quads, a Boggart 2, a Svartalfa 2 and by adding a single Point of Enhanced Sylph, a pair of Buraq support Points, a Point of Fast Recon and a LRM Gnome Point for supporting fire.

Now add another mech Star to make a Binary, and don't forget to get a Rouge Point or two of Aero to flesh this up a bit!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 28 November 2017, 22:47:02
Back to you Armond~

I was thinking of what I said about the Aero Star. You could replace it with a VTOL unit.

Let's see here what the clans use:

Donar
Donar Recon
Donar BA Support
Anhur
Anhur BA
Balac
Balac Recon

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 29 November 2017, 06:46:36
What about an Aero/VTOL hybrid?  I have a pair of Batus and Jagatais.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 29 November 2017, 08:00:53
Just ideas... but yeah, I can see these.

Batu D
Batu D

Jagatai C or E
Jagatai C or E

Donar
Donar Recon

Anhur w/ Point Heavy Jump Infantry
Anhur BA w/ 2x Point Heavy Jump Infantry

Donar
Anhur BA w/ 2 Point Heavy Jump Infantry

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 17 December 2017, 22:35:42
Oh Christmas tree, oh Christmas tree...

What will I find under thee?

( Crosses fingers for a new tank star! )

It's almost time, what have you been up too?

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Armond on 18 December 2017, 05:36:04
Unfortunately I have been going through a school so my time is not my own right now.  Almost over, then back to Battletech! 

Just waiting for an opportunity to work on stuff.

Also, going to drop the Star of Grendels and go with a more normal mix of mechs seen in CHHs, all Omnis of course. 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 06 January 2018, 20:25:53
Got ten Toads, two old school Rhinos, and four Odins for Christmas. WOOT!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 28 January 2018, 11:51:28
Got ten Toads, two old school Rhinos, and four Odins for Christmas. WOOT!

TT
Nice haul!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 28 January 2018, 11:52:58
Quick question: Do Quad- Vees follow mech or vehicle star organization?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: jklantern on 28 January 2018, 12:01:07
Quick question: Do Quad- Vees follow mech or vehicle star organization?

I believe they fall under vehicle (which I believe greatly irks the Falcons).
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 28 January 2018, 13:00:41
I believe they fall under vehicle (which I believe greatly irks the Falcons).

That could be nasty.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 28 January 2018, 15:05:34
Just had to share this, played my first Megamek game against real opponents (and one bot) in a long time last night. I used three points of heavy jump infantry and two points of fast recon. Out of 100 Clan Hell's Horses warriors I lost a total of 17, though they were all as honorable as any and will be missed. Most of those died from having building parts fall on them.

In return I killed an upgraded Hollander, a Firetater Mirage, and a Griffin.The only thing on the map I did not kill was a PPC carrier and that was because the Griffin shot first.

I was told after the game that I have to remember the game is called megaMEK and not megaINFANTRY.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 28 January 2018, 20:47:26
That's it! Show them who's boss!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 30 January 2018, 12:01:25
I don't know why, bute everytime I use the clan heavy jump infantry and clan fast recon infantry, I keep going back to that clan I made up, Clan Incontinent Gorillas.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 30 January 2018, 12:02:25
What do the Horses think of Clan Stone Lion?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 31 January 2018, 15:03:30
I think I have over specialized in infantry. Can anyome give me a good Horse's mech that is usable in any era?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Deadborder on 31 January 2018, 17:44:06
Loki!

Best Falcon... er, Horse 'Mech ever.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 31 January 2018, 17:48:49
Loki!

Best Falcon... er, Horse 'Mech ever.
Wait a minute here... Hellbringer, Nova, Stormcrow... did the Horses design ALL the good omnis?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 01 February 2018, 23:44:01
A-yep!

But even more fun, we also have created novel ideas that have stuck around, like the Quad-Vees.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 10 February 2018, 18:09:28
Ran a Balius D in a game tonight. I was impressed with the perfomance in general despite my bad rolls but I think one of the other variants would work better.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: pensiveswetness on 17 February 2018, 00:01:29
I have a question about CHH's allotment of Bloodnames in FM:Crusader Clans. Out of the 40 original BN's from Historical: Operation Klondik, only 13 were printed in the Field Manual. Is there anything stated (in any published book or material)about if any of the other BN's are either in-used (but the active count is low), inactive or out-right Reeved?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Deadborder on 17 February 2018, 02:02:41
I have a question about CHH's allotment of Bloodnames in FM:Crusader Clans. Out of the 40 original BN's from Historical: Operation Klondik, only 13 were printed in the Field Manual. Is there anything stated (in any published book or material)about if any of the other BN's are either in-used (but the active count is low), inactive or out-right Reeved?

No. The 13 listed in the field manual are those that the Horses exclusively control. Otherwise, the other 27 bloodnames could be any mixture of shared with other Clans, inactive or out and out reaved. Note that there's no list of what's what within those 27, largely as a way of leaving it clear for players (and future authors)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 17 February 2018, 08:26:13
Operation: KLONDIKE (the book) of course has all 40 Bloodnames so you have a starting point, but the exact conditions of those Bloodnames in the 3050s is left vague. I don't even think A Time of War breaks them down into major/minor Bloodnames.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 17 February 2018, 13:18:56
I think I have over specialized in infantry. Can anyome give me a good Horse's mech that is usable in any era?

No such thing Trothkin!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: pensiveswetness on 11 March 2018, 22:05:50
OK, I have another question...

Now in Total Warfare, when determining random skill levels and skill ranks, Clan Tanks are supposed to roll at -1 (to reflect the bias and half-hearted training that the Clans typically give to their vehicle corps, which is to say, non existent). Now as I read the various resources I have on this subject (Both Field Manuals, FM Update plus others), does the Hell's Horses Touman take the same vein as other clans (that they, too, roll their skills at -1 on the dice roll)? It seems odd to me that a clan that values team work and 'Man before his machine' would allow substandard training in their mechanized corps. Am I wrong on this thought?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Deadborder on 12 March 2018, 06:45:21
OK, I have another question...

Now in Total Warfare, when determining random skill levels and skill ranks, Clan Tanks are supposed to roll at -1 (to reflect the bias and half-hearted training that the Clans typically give to their vehicle corps, which is to say, non existent). Now as I read the various resources I have on this subject (Both Field Manuals, FM Update plus others), does the Hell's Horses Touman take the same vein as other clans (that they, too, roll their skills at -1 on the dice roll)? It seems odd to me that a clan that values team work and 'Man before his machine' would allow substandard training in their mechanized corps. Am I wrong on this thought?

You are. There's a rule somewhere that the Horses don't suffer that same -1 penalty on Vehicle skill rolls as everyone else. I think it's Total Warfare or FM:Crusader Clans, but don't quote me.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 12 March 2018, 09:01:50
Did vehicle training get an upgrade post reaving do you think?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: pensiveswetness on 12 March 2018, 20:38:09
*shrug* That's really a question more along the lines of 'A typical day in the life of the Inner Sphere Clan Sibko Cadet' because it's gotta be different somewhat since all the Invader Clans became residents post Jihad...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 13 March 2018, 00:23:02
FMCC has a bunch of bonuses for using infantry but nothing about tanks.

FM3145 has a +1 bonus for rolls on the skills table. I am sure that it is included elsewhere too.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 13 April 2018, 15:20:49
Hey, can someone tell me what the MP loss rate is for mounting mag-clamped ProtoMechs on an Omni? I'm away from my PDFs at the moment and I'm trying to work out some ratios for a QuadVee/Proto "Nova".
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 13 April 2018, 20:30:16
According to IO, they use the "Carrying external cargo rules" from Total Warfare to calculate the MP reduction. BattleMechs use the total weight of the ProtoMechs being carried, while an OmniMech gets to reduce the weight of EACH ProtoMech by 3 tons before calculating the MP reduction.

According to TW, cargo weight weighing up to a quarter of the carrying unit's mass subtracts 3 MP (or cuts MP in half, whichever is less) while any more weight reduces the MP by half. No jumping is allowed in either case.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 14 April 2018, 03:33:34
Hmm...so if a Notos was carrying, say, two Minotaur P2s, that would slow it to...2/3 in 'Mech mode and 3/5 in vee mode? Yeesh, yeah, that's definitely not worth it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 14 April 2018, 20:45:38
Okay, so with that idea kaput, does anyone have any suggestions as to what unit would work best as a dual-P2 carrier? Nothing is immediately jumping out at me.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 14 April 2018, 21:56:29
Tough to say. You either go for something big enough that you only get a -3 to the MP, or you just go for something incredibly light and take the half penalty.

Though of course, it also depends on if you want to just carry them because of fluff, or if you actually want to be faster than the P2 on its own.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 16 April 2018, 20:52:08
Damn, it's a shame the Horses don't use the Black Lanner, because that'd be pretty decent for this. Maybe taking them one at a time with Arctic Cheetahs? Did I finally find a good use for the Arctic Cheetah?

Relatedly...I'm toying with a tweak to the P2 to replace with iHSLs with ERSLs, but the change in heat sinks would free up 500kg. Still can't decide what to do with that, though.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 16 April 2018, 21:18:56
I dunno. The Arctic Cheetah would be reduced to what, 5/8? While its faster, I'm not sure its really survivable...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 16 April 2018, 22:04:25
Well, damn, it seems like the P2 is just totally nonviable, then, unless I'm missing something obvious. Are there any OmniVees that'd fit the bill? The three obvious candidates (the Epona, Hephaestus and Bandit) all arguably suffer from the same fragility issue as the Arctic Cheetah.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 16 April 2018, 23:44:36
I don't think its completely non-viable, but it isn't that easy either. The Viper might work. That would be 5/8 and it can survive a bit more...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 17 April 2018, 00:02:41
Oh, hey, yeah, the Viper...and it'd be 5/8/8, really, that's not bad at all. Nice.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 17 April 2018, 00:07:09
Okay, so if you've got a Star of Vipers carrying a Point of Minotaur P2s...what are the other four Points of the presumed accompanying Proto Star? I'd think at least one or two Points of Procyon-Qs for screening purposes...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 18 April 2018, 14:09:59
Hydra 3?

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 18 April 2018, 18:20:28
Interesting choice. Unfortunately according to the MUL, the Hydra 3 was a Mandrill/Spirit exclusive, so it's likely extinct in the modern era since both of those Clans are gone. That being said, if your head in LRM support, it makes me wish we had the stats for the Svartbeta, cuz that'd be perfect for this.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 18 April 2018, 18:55:32
Hippogriff... fun fact MUL has it as IS Clan General and if you wanted a Beep!-Beep! to carry your P2's..

I suggest the Anat, even with the -3 MP... it still is fast.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 19 April 2018, 01:18:46
Ok, I've done some more research and according to this (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45757.0), if a unit is 10% or less of the carrier's overall mass, it doesn't slow them at all. That opens things up considerably. Not just that, but that article also has a very handy chart showing exactly which 'Mechs work well as carriers. Of course there's one design that chart overlooks: the Balius, baby! A Minotaur could ride one at no penalty.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 19 April 2018, 02:45:33
I'm...honestly not sure if that's correct. The rules that they seem to be referring to is lifting stuff with the Mech's hands, rather than carrying cargo externally. On the other hand, that entire section is under the Cargo Carrier rules..so that last line could apply to the entire section theoretically...especially since its referencing carrying more than 10-20% as cargo, which you can't do in the if you're just lifting with the arms.

That's...bleh. Too late to try to figure it out.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 19 April 2018, 04:32:52
That's according to Paul, who was one of the developers for the rules for the MCS itself, so I'm inclined to take his word for it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 19 April 2018, 12:00:31
Yeah, I can see it. But man. That line about the Mechs being able to carry 10% without trouble should be in the main section, not tacked on at the end.

It does definitely bring up additional options though.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 20 April 2018, 00:06:57
Hmm. now I'm wondering how the P2 fares compared to the standard Minotaur. Crit-seeking SRMs instead of the heavy hitting ERMLs.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 20 April 2018, 02:08:31
Ok, I've done some more research and according to this (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45757.0), if a unit is 10% or less of the carrier's overall mass, it doesn't slow them at all. That opens things up considerably. Not just that, but that article also has a very handy chart showing exactly which 'Mechs work well as carriers. Of course there's one design that chart overlooks: the Balius, baby! A Minotaur could ride one at no penalty.

Why do I have this image of the horses taking the term cavalry waaaay to seriously. Quick someone draw a picture of a miniature during a Balius!!!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 01 May 2018, 15:00:36
Howdy, my fellow herd members! It’s been a good while and I decided to check in and see how things were faring in the touman!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 01 May 2018, 15:29:23
Howdy, my fellow herd members! It’s been a good while and I decided to check in and see how things were faring in the touman!

 *slowly puts away a horse shaped pinata*
 You know these guys, always....horsing around !?!?!?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 02 May 2018, 01:13:11
Howdy, my fellow herd members! It’s been a good while and I decided to check in and see how things were faring in the touman!

Good to see you around Tassa. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of news about the Horses. TR3150 has something called "Operation NOYAN" which seems to be the Horses hitting the Ghost Bears and the Jade Falcons. Not alot of details, unless I missed them.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 02 May 2018, 07:18:23
Oh there's lots of details, they're just not public at this point.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 02 May 2018, 10:25:18
Good to see you around Tassa. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of news about the Horses. TR3150 has something called "Operation NOYAN" which seems to be the Horses hitting the Ghost Bears and the Jade Falcons. Not alot of details, unless I missed them.

I have that TRO, but I missed that reference. I will definitely go take a peek, even if the info is sparse. :)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 02 May 2018, 11:47:51
Yeah, its pretty hard to miss. I think the Hadur mentions something, and the rest just really requires slogging through it for minute details.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 02 May 2018, 12:20:53
Yeah, its pretty hard to miss. I think the Hadur mentions something, and the rest just really requires slogging through it for minute details.
.

The Hadur entry mentions an attack on New Oslo...man, I wish the Horses well there, because losing that world to the Dominion really sucked for them.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 02 May 2018, 12:39:44
.

The Hadur entry mentions an attack on New Oslo...man, I wish the Horses well there, because losing that world to the Dominion really sucked for them.

 Not as.much as the clean up efforts after the bears took over. A totem animal that can defecate while it walks is nasty.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 02 May 2018, 13:12:26
Leave it to Clan Share Bear to keep a tidy planet after our occupation! Even when it twas their fault in the first place...

 :thumbsup:

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 02 May 2018, 13:30:45
Leave it to Clan Share Bear to keep a tidy planet after our occupation! Even when it twas their fault in the first place...

 :thumbsup:

TT

Sharing is caring, we ain't sharing cause we stopped caring ;)
 
 So on a "topic" note, anyone else having as much fun as i am using those transforming tanks to ambush as i am? Its like a game of peekaboo i gauss yoooou.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 02 May 2018, 13:38:25
So on a "topic" note, anyone else having as much fun as i am using those transforming tanks to ambush as i am? Its like a game of peekaboo i gauss yoooou.

...are the QuadVees in MegaMek now?!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 02 May 2018, 13:41:17
I ran a city fight with 'em.... couldn't help myself from saying " Autobots, roll OUT! " a few times...

The Cyllaros is good firesupport unit when mixed with Harpagos... I ended up fielding Fast Recon and standard Toads, the AP Gauss variant, against some AU Jade Wolf forces.

You know they don't really have much in firepower, but they sure make up for nifftyness!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 02 May 2018, 13:41:47
...are the QuadVees in MegaMek now?!

I believe so now...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 02 May 2018, 13:48:01
...are the QuadVees in MegaMek now?!

 Ayup. Love taking cover behind a lvl1 hill then popping up to fire, then ducking back down like a vicious prairie dog.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 02 May 2018, 13:51:03
Well, I know what I’ll be downloading when I get home!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 02 May 2018, 13:54:51
Well, I know what I’ll be downloading when I get home!

 Check with steve to see what his latest repackaging is the most stable. Super heavy protos are also a blast as well. Also suggest you run some Eponas cause they can Epwnya when used right. By right i mean chasing down anything and gnawing it to death. So much fun in a urban environment when you're just smashing through buildings like a cracked out ice ferret.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 02 May 2018, 14:10:32
Check with steve to see what his latest repackaging is the most stable. Super heavy protos are also a blast as well. Also suggest you run some Eponas cause they can Epwnya when used right. By right i mean chasing down anything and gnawing it to death. So much fun in a urban environment when you're just smashing through buildings like a cracked out ice ferret.

I really need to sit down and make a Hell’s Horses Mongol Cluster at some point really soon. It’s long overdue.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 02 May 2018, 14:16:47
I really need to sit down and make a Hell’s Horses Mongol Cluster at some point really soon. It’s long overdue.

 Think lams are working as well if you feel like getting your transformers on.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 02 May 2018, 14:33:14
Think lams are working as well if you feel like getting your transformers on.

Okay, consider me hyped. I’m going to fire it up tonight and give myself a refresher course on BattleTech.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 02 May 2018, 14:41:35
Not sure what your weekend plans are but i'll be free to murderhobo you back into the fold :)
 Heh..hehe...hehehehehehehehe...sorry i just thought of kobold iic's vs quadvees.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 03 May 2018, 15:29:54
HA! I laugh...

Wait till I show you TT-Toad mk.2's...

AP Gauss Toad w/ Mauser IIC and Infernos!

TT

Heh..hehe...hehehehehehehehe...sorry i just thought of kobold iic's vs quadvees.

There's a D&D reference there isn't there?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 09 May 2018, 16:13:32
I need some assistance from the Herd. :)

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61455.0
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 11 May 2018, 23:29:00
So are people still using the Elemental II (or did they ever start?). It seems still viable in cities and leg attacks, but I was wondering if it got forgotten when the Buraq showed up...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 12 May 2018, 17:58:15
Oh I still use them... for when I need to BV sink something.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 16 July 2018, 17:32:31
Fellow Herdsman, I could use some insight on something: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=37902.msg1429555#msg1429555
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 26 July 2018, 02:51:05
I don't know why it's never occurred to me ask the community about this, but does anyone know what the officer situation is with Nova'd forces? For instance, in the platonic ideal of a Supernova Trinary (three 'Mech/BA Novas), is the structure:

Nova A
Nova Captain
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors

Nova B
Nova Commander
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors

Nova C
Nova Commander
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors


Or, is it:

Nova A
Nova Captain
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Star Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors

Nova B
Nova Commander
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Star Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors

Nova C
Nova Commander
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Star Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Point Commander+4 Warriors
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: JadedFalcon on 26 July 2018, 21:44:03
I'm not a pony expert, but the old CJF phonebook only had a single command-grade officer for each Nova formation. However since there are so many Novas in the HH Touman, I wouldn't be surprised if they retained a second officer per Nova formation, to allow advancement opportunities. I'm probably not helping answer the question...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 28 July 2018, 13:50:10
I think it's more like Star Captain, then Nova Commander, then Star Commander followed by Point Commander.

So for your three Novas, ,Nova Captain command one, Nova Commander, another Nova Commander, where BA CO of each would be Star Commander, followed by four Point Commanders.

TT

Edit: Kojak is right.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 28 July 2018, 20:09:57
Nova Captains are definitely a thing.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 05 August 2018, 05:12:13
Just finished reading Shattered Fortress.

We got New Oslo back!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 06 August 2018, 15:55:27
And we got a few new toys to play around with!

Though we already knew about the Nova CEWS, we get some funsies added. Call them hints of easter eggs to come.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 06 August 2018, 17:18:45
New toys? Also, we have Nova CEWS? Since when?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 07 August 2018, 10:03:49
Are ultra heavy protos like the svartala (sp) still accorded the same 5 in a point rule?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 07 August 2018, 11:23:18
Are ultra heavy protos like the svartala (sp) still accorded the same 5 in a point rule?
Yep. A point of 15 tonners gets you 75 tons of protos in a point
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 07 August 2018, 17:43:22
New toys? Also, we have Nova CEWS? Since when?

Just before the formation of Clan Stone Lion / CHH. While it was abandoned by the IS CHH after 3071. IF your playing CHH during the Reaving, you'd wouldn't use it, but if your from Zeta and just after the Reaving, most likely. UNTIL you become Stone Lion, then you can use them, but only in secondline and vehicles at best.

What I'm saying after the Reavings, CHH Zeta had less than 3 Clusters left, and any replacements would have come from captured equipment just like any other isola. Including the Society Nova CEWS, most likely the units are striped out @ 1.5 tons each and costing 1.100 Million C-Bills a pop! ( 1,100,00.00 ) Some might have been left in and not used, but the temptation to target... Well if the battlecams don't record it, or was lost / damaged... >:D

TT

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 07 August 2018, 19:15:39
So about the noyan  :beatdown:
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kitsune413 on 08 August 2018, 17:06:55
So about the noyan  :beatdown:

 ;D

Guys you stopped Hooning around in the desert and took some Ghost Bear Worlds!

Speaking of hoonage what is up with your mech/tanks? They need wheels. You can only do rock and roll racing a little with treads.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kitsune413 on 08 August 2018, 18:55:49
Horse's. You just made me waste hours of my day getting distracted by hoonage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPXW3MX4tio&index=18&list=PLPNsV8IPds6LcjWS1ytZv9xeTDgpbW30x
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 09 August 2018, 10:49:01
Did you like it Kit? And is that your hoonage opinion?

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kitsune413 on 09 August 2018, 13:35:07
Did you like it Kit? And is that your hoonage opinion?

TT

Haha. I always enjoy hoonage. We need to petition to get the Hells Horse's to trial by rock and roll racing.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 09 August 2018, 17:35:30
And we got a few new toys to play around with!

Though we already knew about the Nova CEWS, we get some funsies added. Call them hints of easter eggs to come.

TT

I'm curious about this statement. Can you explain more?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 11 August 2018, 06:55:26
Technically, by " new toys " I meant we get a factory world's products, New Oslo among others.

Though they are the same old toys, but now we get more to fill our ranks!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 19 September 2018, 13:31:34
If the then crusader horses agreed to support the jags against task force serpent what warship assets could they have sent on short notice?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 19 September 2018, 13:33:53
Straight up Alpha Galaxy's with Beta's in tow.... along with attached ground units of course!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 19 September 2018, 13:36:22
Did the horses of this era have their spec ops teams already? Also was the gnome BA Only in the keshiks?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 19 September 2018, 14:08:27
In order:

-
If the then crusader horses agreed to support the jags against task force serpent what warship assets could they have sent on short notice?

It's highly unlikely the Horses would have intervened to save the Jaguars. But in any case, even if they had, I doubt Alpha Galaxy or their assets would have been involved, since they would have most likely been en route to the three-world enclave in the Wolf OZ they'd just been given.

Did the horses of this era have their spec ops teams already?

Almost certainly, since we know they were active in the fighting with the Ghost Bears in '63.

Also was the gnome BA Only in the keshiks?

Unlikely: it began deployment in '56, so by '60 it should have at least spread to Alpha Galaxy.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 21 September 2018, 07:07:32
In order:

-
It's highly unlikely the Horses would have intervened to save the Jaguars. But in any case, even if they had, I doubt Alpha Galaxy or their assets would have been involved, since they would have most likely been en route to the three-world enclave in the Wolf OZ they'd just been given.

I thought contract bid with the wolves was after the jags fall?


Almost certainly, since we know they were active in the fighting with the Ghost Bears in '63.

Unlikely: it began deployment in '56, so by '60 it should have at least spread to Alpha Galaxy.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 21 September 2018, 08:13:58
The Horses won/were given their trio of worlds in the Wolf OZ in 3060 per FM:U, but it doesn’t say if that happened before or after the conclusion of the destruction of the Jaguars. I’m inclined to think it happened after, because I’d think the Clans were collectively preoccupied with seeing how that shook out.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 21 September 2018, 08:46:16
The Horses won/were given their trio of worlds in the Wolf OZ in 3060 per FM:U, but it doesn’t say if that happened before or after the conclusion of the destruction of the Jaguars. I’m inclined to think it happened after, because I’d think the Clans were collectively preoccupied with seeing how that shook out.

Same
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 02 October 2018, 20:09:13
Straight up Alpha Galaxy's with Beta's in tow.... along with attached ground units of course!

TT

What type of naval support warships I mean could the horses have sent?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 02 October 2018, 20:33:32
Well the 'Red Pegasus' fleet, as it's called, comprises of a double Binary, Warships ( 10 ) and Jumpships ( 10 ) as well as an Assault Dropship Star ( 5 ).

So I think:

Red Knight
Gold Knight
Black Knight
Mount Olympus
and maybe the Blood Horse

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 03 October 2018, 09:37:33
Well the 'Red Pegasus' fleet, as it's called, comprises of a double Binary, Warships ( 10 ) and Jumpships ( 10 ) as well as an Assault Dropship Star ( 5 ).

So I think:

Red Knight
Gold Knight
Black Knight
Mount Olympus
and maybe the Blood Horse

TT

Wow quite a bit! What would be needed to escort alpha Keshia and beta and delta galaxy?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 03 October 2018, 09:46:00
I think all three Knights, the Mount Olympus is just a glorified cargo hauler and the Blood Horse is here for some backbone moving.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 04 October 2018, 17:17:05
@ Armond

How goes it? Did you finalized your unit?

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 08 October 2018, 13:51:30
I think all three Knights, the Mount Olympus is just a glorified cargo hauler and the Blood Horse is here for some backbone moving.

TT

Do we know where those ships were stationed during the assault on huntress?

Also if a sizable clan relief force did come how do you think Serpent naval forces would have reacted?

Sucidal rear guard to knock out as many dropships as possible or attempt to provide cover and extraction for the ground forces?

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 08 October 2018, 19:24:24
Starting with Niles, Kirin and maybe Bearclaw, but mostly spaced out to protect the clans interest.

And as for Serpent and even Bulldog forces?

Most likely an Oh Shit... hornets nest, particularly if Strana Mechty Naval forces were added.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: worktroll on 09 October 2018, 03:58:44
Looking for Horselike commentary on a proposed Dark Age Trinary:

Clan Hell's Horses, Dark Age - 65th Mechanised Strike Cluster, Delta Galaxy (r   

Command Star   

Omni   
Omni   
Nova   
Bellona (std) x2   
Enyo x2   
BA x3   

Scout Star   

Bellona (laser) x2   
Donar (m) x2   
Shamash x2 ?   
Fire Moth   
Viper   

Support Star   

Aesir x2   
Huey x2   
2nd Line   
Anat x2   
BA x2

Technically I have 4 stars worth, bit think of it as having a Nova Star split up ...  kinda ...

Does that look sufficiently Clan Hell's Horses? Happy to entertain suggestions for the unfilled spots, but limits exist as to a) using my available MW:DFA vehicles, and b) my available Clan minis.

Thanks in advance,

W.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 09 October 2018, 18:48:17
What about:

Bellona XL and Enyo-XR?

Both run the same speed and are all energy weapon.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 09 October 2018, 23:50:59
Clan Hell's Horses, Dark Age - 65th Mechanised Strike Cluster, Delta Galaxy (r   

Does that look sufficiently Clan Hell's Horses? Happy to entertain suggestions for the unfilled spots, but limits exist as to a) using my available MW:DFA vehicles, and b) my available Clan minis.

It seems pretty fluffy, though I wonder about the extra points in the various stars?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: worktroll on 10 October 2018, 14:47:37
Bellona XL is an easy fit; the DA mini (which is well sized for hex map use) is the Laser config, and I'll just be modding the AC standard. The Enyo-XR? Too experimental for what I have in mind. Although modding the ER Pulse version ...

And as to the composition - I wanted a real DA feel, mixed vehicles, 'Mechs, BA. I'm trying to pretend that the BA are just "part of a scattered Nova", if you see what I mean. And the Anats - Herb indicated some years ago that you don't really need to count lightly armed APCs plus the troops they support both as points. And the Anat is about as lightly armed as you can get ...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 06 November 2018, 10:30:44
A question regarding the Horses Dress Uniform.

Quote
The Hell's Horses dress uniform is a simple red jacket, trimmed with black leather, over a black high collar undershirt. A single pentagonal gold button, matching the jacket's cuff links is pinned to the right flap of the uniform, over the wearer's left breast. A simple, black leather belt at the waist, a ceremonial sword may be worn. Red trousers trimmed with black leather and polished blacked leather shoes complete the uniform. Hell's Horse warriors wear black leather gloves with the dress uniform.

When I read that I read it as being more like a weird coloured buisness suit just sans a tie or is it a full button up kind of thing, what do people think the Dress uniform for the Horses would look like?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 06 November 2018, 19:29:23
I think it is more this with matching pants.

http://newleatherjacket.com/Michael-Jackson-Thriller-Leather-Jacket?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlaqLo4LB3gIVBrjACh0_BweGEAQYAiABEgIJz_D_BwE (http://newleatherjacket.com/Michael-Jackson-Thriller-Leather-Jacket?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlaqLo4LB3gIVBrjACh0_BweGEAQYAiABEgIJz_D_BwE)

The collar could be black vs. red, but same design. Black Tanker boots could solve the shoe department.

TT

Or... hear me out...

More this-> (http://newleatherjacket.com/image/cache/catalog/product-257/PhNpbZvJlP-The%20Flash%20costume-600x900.jpg) just blackout the items needed to be black!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 09 November 2018, 06:43:24
Anyone else excited about the Turning Points Takasha?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 09 November 2018, 07:20:38
Anyone else excited about the Turning Points Takasha?

 Me!!! Can't wait to play it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 09 November 2018, 09:52:41
Who let the Bears out?

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 15 November 2018, 09:58:06
Hey everyone, what do you think of this insignia I just made for my home build conventional infantry unit?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 19 November 2018, 07:06:04
looks lovely!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 21 December 2018, 23:08:31
Well the 'Red Pegasus' fleet, as it's called, comprises of a double Binary, Warships ( 10 ) and Jumpships ( 10 ) as well as an Assault Dropship Star ( 5 ).

So I think:

Red Knight
Gold Knight
Black Knight
Mount Olympus
and maybe the Blood Horse

TT

Do we have any notion of how skilled horse infantry and elementals were in naval boarding actions?

I would like to play a scenario where a clan force attempts to seize the Cameron class serpent flagship...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 21 December 2018, 23:29:59
Well Elementals were the Infantry norm... Say 4 skill as average? Their not like ground versions... And if they do survive, they'll most likely get ( here I'd house rule it ) get advancements... my house rule is to lower .5 per Point that survives combat without losing 1/2 or more of their unit due to combat lose... it's okay to lose one permanently, but as long as it's only one. If two get hurt, but Point survives, they'll get that lower skill set, if in a campaign.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 22 December 2018, 08:10:08
The horses infantry and elements are always described as the best most skilled etc. what do you all think that means? That they are simply bigger and stronger or that they have a broader skill set?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 22 December 2018, 14:18:55
Well first, they had a better breeding program, which meant pre-elementals. IE: Stronger, faster and more endurance than freebirth... So Skill 5...

Then Skill 4 as a typical grunt sibko graduate noob...

Skill 3 average today, everyone else a 4-ish...

But Space Marine Elemental should be 4... they don't fight as often as their grounded cousins...

If in a Watch or SpecOps, then they should be a +1 skill to reflect cream of the crop, Skill 2 / 3-Space... but that's kinda rare...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 22 January 2019, 04:59:37
A question, could the Hells Horses get away with this? 

Its a concept i've got for a vehicle and its related brother but the big question is about the crew, which would be Solhama personnel.

Quote
Hephaestus Combat Engineering Vehicle.
The Hephaestus series could be considered near unthinkable in the Clans mindset and it was decried as a waste of materials and resources and its deployment caused more than a few problems within the Horse Touman when it was first introduced.

Whilst some Clans preferred the straight open simplicity of the Jaguars type of Trials, where both sides lined up and engaged, many did not and Trials could be, and often were, fought on all types of terrain, from the searing deserts and canyons of Roche to the thick forests of Eden and in this rough terrain, vehicles were often at a disadvantage.
A canny opponent like the Wolves or Sharks would and did take advantage of terrain like rivers which heavy tracked vehicles could not cross and this could imperil a Trial and indeed did on several occasions.

With Project Zhukov well under way and more tanks joining the Horses Touman the need for support forces capable of helping with Trials became more prevalent and Khan *INSERT NAME HERE* took the step of ordering that vehicle be developed that would feature Omni-Pod technology and be able to help with tactical and strategic battlefield obstacles.

Crewing them was more difficult than designing them, no Warrior would accept being put in such a sedentary position.  Freeborns were out of the question as recruiting Freeborns for the role would draw the ire of the Grand Council.  And so it fell to the Solhama to crew the vehicles but even here there was some opposition.

The Khan himself ended out addressing the Solhama personnel in service with his Clan.  Whilst these new postings did not offer the risks and chance for glory that they might normally face.  They were still vital and very dangerous roles.  The new vehicles would be recovering damaged and broken down comrades, building bridges whilst under fire, working to maintain them in the teeth of an enemy counter attack as well as clearing minefields.  Far from being a ‘milk-run’ the engineering vehicles would be on the front line and would be a vital part of any advance.

Basically, could the Horses go to their Solhama and say "we don't want you to be infantry, we need you to try this combat engineering thing, its hard and dangerous work, but your success could mean the success of a trial." whilst also placing them on the front lines.

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 22 January 2019, 11:04:21
A question, could the Hells Horses get away with this? 

... the big question is about the crew, which would be Solhama personnel.

Basically, could the Horses go to their Solhama and say "we don't want you to be infantry, we need you to try this combat engineering thing, its hard and dangerous work, but your success could mean the success of a trial." whilst also placing them on the front lines.

Yeah, I think the Horse philosophy of "it's the man, not the machine" would lend itself to not only solahma, but also freebirths or testdowns serving in combat engineering units.  The Horses have a lot of unarmored infantry in their clusters.  Getting to man a combat engineering vehicle would be a step up from that.

And the Horse willingness to employ combat vehicles makes them the obvious Clan for developing new combat engineering vehicles.

Lastly, even if useless in formal Clan trials, the Horses have a Periphery border and the Mongols have fought Inner Sphere opponents.  Combat engineering vehicles would probably come in handy in some of those non-Clan engagements.

There is also some precedent in the Raven R-teams, which combine mechs, BA, "combat-trained technicians" and recovery vehicles in the same star for the purposes of salvage.

You could even do a combat engineering nova with Resgate suits...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 22 January 2019, 19:32:14
I'd even throw out the odd line about, " Being assigned to this vehicle would allow you, the Solhama, to fight in a more combat oriented position. Which may or may not allow, depending on the circumstances, promotional advancements. "

Sorta like the J-27 Ordnance Transport fluff...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 23 January 2019, 05:52:29
Here ya go :)

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=64168.0
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 20 February 2019, 16:16:42
The Horses have a lot of unarmored infantry in their clusters. 

And it is AWESOME!!!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 23 February 2019, 05:47:06
Hello my herdmates. I was wondering if anyone has used the Bowman and how well it fought with the artillery rules. Do you need to stand off with it or can it go toe to toe if need be?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 23 February 2019, 06:17:18
Really its armament is more for a 'keep away!' kind of thing.  With a mere ton of ammo for the LRM you can't really waste it on wild shots and the Pulsers are good but you'd not want to rely on them.  Really its a case of keep away, if anything comes close, slap it with an arrow if you can, if not, don't charge at them, your armament's for self defence, not going head hunting.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 23 February 2019, 12:17:09
So what unit of any type or any era is the quintessential Horses unit?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 25 February 2019, 23:18:36
So what unit of any type or any era is the quintessential Horses unit?
Hello my herdmates. I was wondering if anyone has used the Bowman and how well it fought with the artillery rules. Do you need to stand off with it or can it go toe to toe if need be?

Well now:

I'll let you in on a secret I rarely share, it's been like, what?, 2 Boards or so ago since I last shared this information... ye gods, it's been that long?...

A bog standard Bowman being supported by a Point of mixed Epona, an A and a C, while 8 Squads of Fast Recon Hover Infantry, that's 5 Troopers each @ 20 per Point, flanking on the sides and a fearsome Hunchback IIC plodding behind in rear guard duties, grumbling about honor and the lack of opponents and stuff.

2 Mechs
2 Vehicles w/ TAG, 1 w/ ECM
40 Troopers on Hoverbikes - look up the damage a Squad can do...
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Fast_Recon (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Fast_Recon)

Enjoy!

TT

( TechManual-v3.0 on this forum has the current most listing of the Mauser IIC - it's 1.37 per rifle per trooper < x5 > : 6.85 which rounds up on anything over .50. ( 7 damage 9 Hexes moving @ 5 MP a turn ))
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 25 February 2019, 23:52:44
In other words:

Fast Recon skirmishes, Epona scout ahead and report back TAG numbers, I find that even if you miss on the first try : the second should hit, and still harass the enemy... the Hunchie is there to give it some protection...

Scout: Sir I have two boogies on approach, fast fellas, possible hovercraft.
CO: Prepare to meet them, see where their vector originated from.
Scout: SIR! Enemy Infantry riding Hoverbikes inbound!
CO: Damn, where did THEY come from?
Scout: Unknown sir, possible flanking positi... SIR!! INBOUND! It's got a lock on me...
CO: EJECT! EJECT! EJEC... > sounds of a dying mech < Damnit, Where the hell did that come from? All units search for that launcher...

Meanwhile :
Hunchie: > grumbling over open mike <
Bowman: What's that I hear? A formal Batchcall from you?
Hunchie: Neg, just my stomach hungry for another fight, again.
Bowman: Well control that urge, stravag and remember your rede.
Hunchie: Yes Star Commander. At present I have a unknown heavies approaching Point Commander Harper's location, shall I issue the challenge?
Bowman: QuiAff, my trothkin... Go and bring honor to our nathaculor and show these Spheriods no mercy!
Hunchie: > Powering up < AFF Star Commander! " I, Point Commander Pi, of the Clan Hells Horses, herby... "

End fun time...

TT

And yes I did run this back in the '99-'01, won about half the time...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 26 February 2019, 07:56:28
Trying to make the Nova work.

As part of my next Battletech Project which will focus on the Horses I was thinking about the Horses pretty much custom use of Nova's  an interesting unit but one that grows terrifyingly fast and becomes near unmanageable when you actually think about it.

The problem with the Nova is that its a LARGE formation in terms of raw manpower.

5 x Mechs + up to 10 tanks or 25 Elementals OR 125 Footsloggers.  That's a LOT of personnel to control without even going into the lower Castes who work on the equipment etc etc.  Its more akin to a Company in size.  This isn't helped by the Clans  using a 10 vehicle star (and again if you have some of the crew numbers the rules spits out at you you're talking up 10+ crew per vehicle in some cases :s which is insane and thus ignorable if you write it) and this sheer number of vehicles by modern standards (and current IS ones) would be a Company in strength. 
And there's also the issue of who's in charge, but fortunately we can kind of sidestep the main problem of Clan Warrior ego because of the Horses tendancy to follow orders and their 'we are parts of the machine'/ its the man, not the machine mindset.

I saw talking with Beachead and this is what he said.

Code: [Select]
Okay, so the main issues I see are material and organizational; because the whole Combined-arms-not-combined-arms-combined-arms-again thing of the Horses never made much sense to me either.

Materially, my impression was that Being the Tank Clan got the Horses bogged down with a lot of old SLDF gear that had never been touched. You could add a lot of combat power for some coin pretty quickly by providing upgraded versions of that.

Organizationally; you've picked right up on the most important aspect of these things; span of control and effective leadership. Call if what you will, but a Clan Vehicle Star is a company-sized formation; 10 vehicles with as many as 14 crew each? That's a company. One with very small subordinate units as well and an odd number of them, but that is neither here nor there. That Star Commander has company-level responsibilities right at the very limit of the max effective number of people and sub-units he or she could be expected, at best; to be able to know, control and really lead. This number is generally accepted to be at about 120. below 60 you know the guys *too* well and that causes problems (But maybe not in the Clans?) and above 120 you don't know everyone well enough to be the kind of leader you need at company level.

Any way you slice it a Tank Star Commander is already effectively a captain's job. Those guys need to be switched on to do it well. Maybe thats why so many vehicle stars are shit in the Clans? Poor training and maintenance are symptoms of ineffective leadership and administration.

So lets make the problem 20-100% worse and add the infantry; either 25 Elementals in whatever suits or anywhere up to 125 leg-infantry. Okay; so if you do this then this principle of organization is just out the window. It's only a principle and there are others, all of which i will link. But the Idea of practicing effective command of approaching 300 people with one guy and the Clan's approach to rank graduation and advancement is ludicrous. 

But how do we/can we *make* it *work*?

There is a couple ways. And before I go on; In my AU the SLDFiE basically shits on this principle (it's called social cohesion) too. I have 60-man PLATOONS and 7-Platoon "Companies" of 482 men. How do I make that work? Totally different graduations of rank and task organization; And I have broken the relationship of the unit names and their sizes. Effectively my Company is a Battalion and my Platoons are those 60-man companies. This all spins out from having tactical viability ensconced at the Squad Level and a Platoon capable of independant operations. The Company is the top tactical unit. The SLDFiE is built on a very small officer cadre backed up by a highly capable NCO corps. Will it work? Possibly not!/Probably not IRL. But does it look good-enough to be plausible? I hope so. However, I also do this with way more rank graduations.

How to make the Clan Nova Work?

Well organizationally; we can break the Clan Star System or we can break the rank system.

Breaking the rank system is easy; you have one Nova Star Commander (Senior) and one Star Commander in each Nova Star; a commander and a second-in-command effectively. But in practice, each is master of their own domain; one leads and managed the Tank Star and the other the Infantry Star, subordinated through their Point Commanders. One thing you really need to make this work is a rank of "Senior Point Commander" for the Leg-infantry stars and "Tank Commander" for the individual tanks. This gives us the span of control and rank/responsibility graduation we need to make a real army work effectively and not as a mob of warriors and crews, which is what most Clans will be.

Breaking the Star System is uglier. The base-5 is an awkward mix tactically already; 5 units does not give two even sides for fire and manuver; although it does give you a one-unit reserve to exploit breakthroughs. It's really still a byproduct of the Clan's Warrior/Dueling Culture.

If you're going to reduce the size of your Tank Stars by an even half, keep in mind always that you have just potentially doubled your officer billets as well from top to bottom of those units.  That may or masy not be a problem (See the essays) What I would suggest is to make a clean break from the base-5 at the Star Level. I'd be looking more at 4 points of two tanks each (or two Demi-stars of two points, even) and then a Star of Elementals or a short star of infantry (100 vs 125).

You can do both, either or neither of these things and still be plausible. Your plan of halving your tank units would fit with the Clan Base-five as well and so would look plausible there as well.

I'm also not afirad to mix VERY different unit types at the lowest levels in BT, because a) I think it's cool and b) no-one will question it after the ComStar/WOBM Base-6. Say; two points of tanks; a point of fighters, a point of infantry (leg or BA) and a mech. The Mechwarrior would probably have to be leader in any Clan, even the Horses; but look at all that flexibility! Be hell fitting it on a dropship, but whatever. Try getting a grip on that unit coming at you.


This highlights the *other* organizational issue with the Nova System; moving the infantry and keeping it up with the tanks and mechs. It's fine if you have enough Omnis and you are using Elementals or Salamanders (Which can ride anything). But how do you do it with leg-infantry? or Gnomes, which cannot IIRC ride Omnis because they are too big? Or if you have Tanks, but not Salamanders?

So, IMO; any Nova with infantry needs to consider operational and to a lesser-extent; tactical mobility in order to get them to the fight and move them around in order to be useful. So here; Mastiff Star includes enough VTOLs to move India and Insect Star around easily. Helpful when hunting bandits to drop them as a blocking force or use them as a pursuit force.

I'm not super-impressed with most Clan infantry carriers, but I love the Maxim-C.

Finally, how combined-arms can the combined-arms Clan get? How are the Horses going to feel about thinks like Air-Cavalry in the form of VTOLs or Small Craft? Close Air Support from ASF or even conventional fighters? How do we feel about artillery? Tube Artillery? I made a huge deal about Naga and Bowman production in my AU, give it a thought here; Does massive damage to the mech lines lead to ending production of such units? Or even Pod-Configurations for other Omnis with Arrow-IV? How about a custom Infantry-carrying pod? Maybe do full Clan-Anathema and artillery mechs are the main things coming off the lines???

What does this experience do the Horse's stance on manufacturing, in-general? Are they going to harden their factories? Disperse them? Expand easier-to-realize industry?

Lots to think about in a very cool setting.

If you are really interested in Principles of Organization and Organizing for War, here are some essays to read;

https://www.baen.com/powowc-part1
https://www.baen.com/powowc-part2
https://www.baen.com/powowc-part3
https://www.baen.com/powowc-part4

Couple caveats; the author is using an SF story he wrote as a tool to teach this concept here. He is also a very traditional man, so he brings up things like mixing genders and sexuality, which is less of an apparant issue for people our generation (in my experience). We've also working in an SF setting basically BUILT for gender-inclusitivity with BT, even if accidentally, from day-1. So, I'd suggest just ignoring that for our purposes and I know *I* am happier never taking a close look at the Clans and sex. Oi.

To which I replied

Code: [Select]
Manufacturing facilities - With all their eggs in one massive basket at the Niles Industrialplex the Horses have a few secondary facilities but these were either small scale production or maintenance/repair facilities and the Horses were starting to oddly enough retire their tank production sites because of the expected surge in Mech's that Tokasha would produce and allow them to be a bit more 'Clan-like' as the Horses were now seemingly drinking from the same cool-aid as everyone else when it came to vehicles, with them being pushed further and further into the background.

This downsizing immediately halts and any smaller sub facilities are going to be re-examined for viability regarding turning them into construction sites.  Even if its only barely enough to turn out a single 35 ton hovertank a week, its something.
They won't harden or fortify their facilities, fortifications are just not the Clan way, but they are going to look at things with a more defensive bent.  For example the 2-ton Alecto Battlesuit is very much a defensive beasty and there will be a number of small, cheap tanks built for second line IE defensive roles as well as some more capable machines (including the Athena - http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Athena) which in this TL is going to be delayed and not issued to front line units due to its lack of speed and poor weapon placement, instead a 75 ton MBT replaces it in that bracket.  The Athena will instead be a defensive weapon for important locations/facilities etc.

Mechanization - The Horses are going to try retain as much Elementals in their front line units, there's 4 either in service or going to enter service, the standard Elemental suit, the 2-ton Alecto, the light Deimos and heavy Alastor (the Canon Gnome, as I think 'Gnome' as a Clan name sounds dumb).  For transport they have the Svantovit as well as a wheeled APC (Polemos) and a new IFV (the Nike) as well as a 100 ton heavy assault transport the Ganesha which can carry up to 15 suits).  With several tanks being modular they can also carry troops as needed as Desant infantry much like the Mechs, so transport for the BA isn't really an issue.  Less prestigious forces would feature a larger number of foot infantry forces but again you've got the APC's for them with the cheap Polemos being the primary mover for those formations.

Whilst in my head vehicle crews are not as huge as they are due to the rules, the biggest would be a 5 man crew (Clans and their base 5) with the roles being as follows

Commander
Gunner
Driver
Loader
DSO (defense systems operator)

The Loader's role is more a naming convention, in essence their job is to maintain the loading systems and weapons during action, the DSO operates the secondary weapons and acts as the radio man, in essence the bow machine-gunner of a WW2 tank.  With the Horses teamwork mentality you can kind of sidestep the whole HONOUR OVER EVERYTHING!! mindset of the Clans, because by working as a team in one vehicle, they bring themselves honour in defeating a foe.  You'd have to have a hirarchy though with the Commander being the most senior warrior and the DSO being the most junior.  Perhaps instead of being sibkin from one single group, they mix and match sibkin groups and even spread them out to junior roles, driving an APC, gunner on an air defence vehicle (lets ignore the fact that the Horses are going to call the Arrow IV a SAM and that it can be swapped out for SSM's in about 5 minites :p) and the like.  In essence this would cross-train the crews and give them experience in multiple roles.

In smaller vehicles like the Vel - https://imgur.com/iDWEf4V then the crew is very much operating like a modern attack helo, with the gunner being dedicated to their job (and acting as navigator as needed) with the pilot being the senior crew, but both operate together as a team as they have to.  On smaller vehicles its a one man crew but probably heavily assisted by systems like those in Elemental suits, voice commands, eye tracking etc.

But as you said the size of these formations will bloom rapidly.  I'd see the standard deployment being a Nova Binary, so 10 Mechs, and 20 Vehicles, and these can then have organic Elementals attached to them as needed.
One idea I just had, form an Elemental Galaxy, but it NEVER deploys as such, instead its broken up and assigned to units that need them, basically its more an admin unit and HQ as the Elementals are spread across the various clusters and galaxies etc.

3 - Ranks Totally agree we'd need to work out something here, have the Nova Commander be the units senior officer and then have the Star Commander as his/her 2IC, so the Nova Commander's not overwhelmed trying to control and direct his/her forces (IE what happened to French tank commanders in their 1 man turrets in WW2).    And if there's any attached Elemental's/PBI then you'd have their commander be, tactically, subordinate to them which might cause problems. So going with your idea

Quote

    Breaking the rank system is easy; you have one Nova Star Commander (Senior) and one Star Commander in each Nova Star; a commander and a second-in-command effectively. But in practice, each is master of their own domain; one leads and managed the Tank Star and the other the Infantry Star, subordinated through their Point Commanders. One thing you really need to make this work is a rank of "Senior Point Commander" for the Leg-infantry stars and "Tank Commander" for the individual tanks. This gives us the span of control and rank/responsibility graduation we need to make a real army work effectively and not as a mob of warriors and crews, which is what most Clans will be.


Makes the most sense, and could work cannonically with the Horses obedience to the chain of command and their all for one mindset vs one for all of the other Clans.

There could also be deployments of pure unit stars but this would probably mostly be Mech's or support units like artill...errr..air defence units :p

Really, the idea of having a Nova Commander and a Star Commander as his/her 2IC makes the most sense with the Nova Commander being the more senior of the two.  In the vehicles you'll HAVE to have a very clear deliniation of roles and positions as I mentioned in my reply and what Beachead said here;

Quote
    Breaking the rank system is easy; you have one Nova Star Commander (Senior) and one Star Commander in each Nova Star; a commander and a second-in-command effectively. But in practice, each is master of their own domain; one leads and managed the Tank Star and the other the Infantry Star, subordinated through their Point Commanders. One thing you really need to make this work is a rank of "Senior Point Commander" for the Leg-infantry stars and "Tank Commander" for the individual tanks. This gives us the span of control and rank/responsibility graduation we need to make a real army work effectively and not as a mob of warriors and crews, which is what most Clans will be.

Makes the most sense, and could work cannonically with the Horses obedience to the chain of command and their all for one mindset vs one for all of the other Clans.

A greater division of rank could allow you to deploy (in theory) a 'demi-Star' for vehicles, IE a 5 unit formation instead of having to always chonk about with all 10.  Deploying such units could also present a greater show of strength or indeed skill.

In my book/AU the Horses will be basing their deployments around the Nova so now it's 'just' a case of trying to make these forces work in my head.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 26 February 2019, 09:30:55
What is exactly a Ranger cluster.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 26 February 2019, 10:05:39
From Beachhead

Quote
Here is an example of a CHH Nova-Binary designed to hunt bandits that I did for the backstory of my OC in the AU:

Meet Sigma-MU Counterbandit SuperNova

Attached assets:

Union-C Stone Star (Modified)
Fighter Point
-Thunderbird
-Riever
Merchant Jumpship Silent Bolt

Command Nova
-Hound Star
Timberwolf
Kitfox
Commando IIC
Wyvren IIC
Hellbringer

-Insect Star
Salamanders
Salamanders
Gnomes
Elementals
Elementals

Baker-Nova
-Mastiff Star
Marauder II (Don't Ask)
Alacorn III
Alacorn III
Anhur
Anhur
Cobra
Cobra
Cobra
Cobra

-India Star
Rifle Point
Rifle Point
Rifle Point
MG Point
Mortar Point
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 26 February 2019, 10:08:11
Looks interesting.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 26 February 2019, 12:33:04
Hello my herdmates. I was wondering if anyone has used the Bowman and how well it fought with the artillery rules. Do you need to stand off with it or can it go toe to toe if need be?

It tries to do too much in my opinion, and so it suffers. I don't really consider a single Arrow IV launcher to be effective, and so often want more. Sure, its got 20 rounds so it can be used for a while, but again, I don't really find the single launcher to be all that great.

The Bowman 4 has two Launchers, but it only has 10 rounds for each launcher, so its pretty limited there.

If you want a dedicated artillery unit, the Naga might be better to be honest.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 26 February 2019, 12:38:07
Aye but don't forget that pre-REVIVAL the Horses were not that big a fan of arty.  I'm getting around that by them saing "Artillery? Noooo....Surface to Air missile launchers is what they are."  whilst pointedly ignoring the fact you can swap out the SAM's for SSM's in 5 minutes.  But as they very clearly say they are not going to use them as SSM's and only as SAM's then the other Clans might give them the stink eye and accept this, but they'd -have- to stick to it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 26 February 2019, 13:49:50
And Horde clusters. I can't seem to find any info on Ranger or Horde Cluster composition.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 26 February 2019, 17:03:15
Quote from: Field Manual 3145, pg. 208
Iota Galaxy: Iota Galaxy is composed of typical Rangers Clusters. To reflect this, with the exception of the Sixty-first BattleMech Cluster, all rolls for determining random unit weight class, or random Star weights apply a –2 modifier to the roll results. Iota Galaxy may not deploy assault BattleMechs or conventional vehicles; if rolling on the random weight composition tables results in an assault-class ’Mech or vehicle, the Horses player must replace that unit with a heavy unit instead. Finally, when rolling on the Hell’s Horses RATs, reroll the result for any ’Mech or vehicle unit that has a Walk/Cruise rate of 5 MPs or less.

Quote from: Era Report 3145, pg. 61
Consisting of two Trinaries and an attached support supernova, the Horde took its cues from the ancient Mongols and their steppeborn style of engaging enemy forces. Mangudai Trinary is made up almost entirely of light vehicles and ‘Mechs, with very few in the medium weight class. This enables it to move swiftly and use hit-and-run tactics to draw the enemy out of position and into the waiting jaws of Tulughma Trinary. That unit, made up entirely of heavy and assault machines, is used as the hammer to strike into the back of the enemy once they have been drawn out by the Mangudai. The Support Supernova contains the Horde’s few infantry, and is expected to assist wherever needed.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 27 February 2019, 10:57:11
From FM3145, pg 155
Quote
With the front line Clusters away, Iota forms the coreward defense against the Rasalhague Dominion. Three Ranger Clusters make up the bulk of the Galaxy. Equipped with fast, lightweight, long-range skirmishing units, they are primarily intended to stall an enemy until help can arrive.


And from Era Report 3145
Quote
First Horde Cluster, Fire Horse Galaxy: The Fire Horse Galaxy is one of the primary exponents of the Mongol doctrine in Clan Hell’s Horses. To reflect this, when using Random unit weight class tables or Random Star weight tables to select ’Mechs for this force, apply a +1 modifier to the roll results; when selecting vehicles, apply a –1 modifier to the roll results instead. Having fought alongside the Falcons for ten years, the First Horde has become extremely adept at recognizing and countering Falcon tactics. To reflect this, any time the Fire Horse Galaxy battles a Jade Falcon force, they may negate any one of the opposing team’s special abilities (chosen by the Hell’s Horses player).


From TRO 3145 on Rangers
Quote
Hordes of Buraqs accompany the Hell’s Horses Ranger Clusters . These terrifyingly fast battlesuits often outdistance their prey, including enemy BattleMechs, to cut off retreat . Anti-piracy actions along the Horses’ Barrens border often rely on Buraqs to range far and wide to locate bases of operations, storage depots, landing zones, and hidden enemies . The Buraq’s limited weaponry forces Points into support roles, though their great speed keeps them safe until help arrives . A Buraq Star usually consists of three Points of the standard armor, and one each of the hunter-killer and support armors; this arrangement maximizes the Star’s anti-pirate utility .

CAPABILITIES
The Buraq’s myomer booster more than makes up for its lack of jump jets with remarkable ground speed . This allows the quad suits to keep up with the fast OmniMechs in the Ranger Clusters

And TRO 3150
Quote
On Botany Bay, the Horses stumbled across a hidden base of the notorious buccaneer Black Kat . Anats from the Fifth Rangers Cluster were ordered to race infantry ahead to seize the facility and prevent Kat’s escape . With support provided by a Star of Eponas, the Anats blew around the flanks of the pirate force on the flatlands of the Solander peninsula .
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 27 February 2019, 15:25:02
I have a couple of additional questions about Horde clusters, actually:

- Are they only three Trinaries? Or do they include any aerospace fighters, or ProtoMechs, in support?
- Speaking of support, what does the Support Supernova consist of other than infantry? 'Mechs? Tanks? A mix? And do they use BA, or PBIs, or both?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 27 February 2019, 21:15:02
Well we got a making of the Support SuperNova :

Right from wantec's quotations...

Hordes of Buraqs accompany the Hell’s Horses Ranger Clusters : A Buraq Star usually consists of three Points of the standard armor, and one each of the hunter-killer and support armors.

Anats from the Fifth Rangers Cluster were ordered to race infantry ahead to seize the facility and prevent Kat’s escape . With support provided by a Star of Eponas, : An Anat carries 5 tons of Infantry, either Battle Armored or not...

So:

Star of Epona, Two Points worth of Anat ( with Infantry, mind if I shamelessly input these: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Assault_Infantry (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Assault_Infantry) ). Also what about three Points of Fast Recon, CHH's hoverbike gangs to round these out? And then that Buraq Star of three standard, one support and one hunter-killer Point.

Instant Support SuperNova!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 28 February 2019, 06:46:22
Don't forget the heavy jump infantry.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 28 February 2019, 06:49:34
I have recently discovered that do to my playing style, reinforced with my move towards the Horses,the nickname I was given by my friends as we played Starfleet Battles fits here as well. If I could actually do it, and the mods would allow it, I would change my forum handle.

But there is no way the are going to let me use Captain Cluster-F.... well you can guess.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 28 February 2019, 13:39:23
Field Manual: Warden Clans says that Iota Galaxy engages in "unclanlike vices." What exactly are "unclanlike vices"?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 28 February 2019, 14:49:28
I'd say more Infantry and Vehicular activities, more so than Mech-ular ones.  ;)

Given it's the Man, not a Machine that makes a warrior mentality.

Also we have the Xerxes Areofighter with it's twin Ultra 20's on tap when and if we need them.

A Point of these will ruin any Star's day!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 01 March 2019, 00:08:53
Pretty much everything is "Unclanlike." Excessive drinking, gambling, fighting that doesn't really benefit the Clans, or just doing anything that's different.

Heck, reading old Star League novels could be considered "UnClanlike vices"
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 01 March 2019, 01:26:04
Field Manual: Warden Clans says that Iota Galaxy engages in "unclanlike vices." What exactly are "unclanlike vices"?


Pretty much everything is "Unclanlike." Excessive drinking, gambling, fighting that doesn't really benefit the Clans, or just doing anything that's different.

Heck, reading old Star League novels could be considered "UnClanlike vices"
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 01 March 2019, 01:36:17
Field Manual: Warden Clans says that Iota Galaxy engages in "unclanlike vices." What exactly are "unclanlike vices"?

Pineapple on pizza, mostly.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 01 March 2019, 06:42:49
Pineapple on pizza, mostly.

Neg, that is the epitome of Clan perfection.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 01 March 2019, 07:46:29
More like eggplant sushi.

LOL...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 01 March 2019, 23:32:58
In all seriousness, I'm guessing it's the classic trio of sex, drugs and rock'n'roll [read: any non-highbrow art]. Of course, the Clan warrior caste is pretty libertine when it comes to the first one, but maybe they're gettin' down with non-warriors or even *gasp* Spheroids and that's frowned upon? This is one of those things where the gaps in our knowledge about Clan culture mean you could posit a lot.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 02 March 2019, 10:21:29
It doesn't even have to be that. You're looking at it from our perspective of what might be a vice. But one of the biggest examples of "UnClanlike" vices that we have in the universe is probably Aiden Pryde when he has to hide the books that he discovered.

For all we know, Trinaries are showing film festivals featuring movies with an anti-authoritarian bent.

The Clans don't care much about the physical vices as long as it doesn't get out of hand (have a fusionaire, that's fine. have too many and show up drunk at work, its a problem), but they do seem to care about cultural vices alot more.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 03 March 2019, 06:39:26
Just had to put this here. My 9-year-old son played a game of megamek yesterday using a mass of IS infantry and a lone tank against a couple of bots running primarily mechs on a open map. He eliminated the entire opposition for the cost of a foot platoon and the tank. And that was with the bv advantage going to the bots.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 03 March 2019, 16:35:50
Need some help naming my Horses character. This is what I have so far:

Cornelius Cobb
Cameron Neely
Blaze Burns
Phil Mazzoni
Willow Ravenwater
Genesis Anu
Ace Mendoza
Mitchell Mitchell
Rocky Purchase
Cash Purchase
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 03 March 2019, 22:32:19
Cornelius Mendoza...

Just because it sounds badassery as hell!

"You've killed my genefather, now prepare to die!"

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 04 March 2019, 01:17:44
If you don't use Cash Purchase, I one hundred percent will. That is incredible.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Deadborder on 04 March 2019, 01:46:31
Cornelius Cobb
Blaze Burns
Ace Mendoza
Cash Purchase

These are my picks, and ones I'd use myself. Of them I think Ace Mendoza and Blaze Burns are the most metal sounding (and thus, Horse appropriate) and the other two I love for the pun value.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 04 March 2019, 02:29:10
Wow, I had to say Genesis Anu out loud before I got that pun. Well done, sir.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 04 March 2019, 04:13:43
Wow, I had to say Genesis Anu out loud before I got that pun. Well done, sir.
Actually that one was really random. I used a random name generator for the first name and a random number generator to chose the bloodname. I got the number for Anu, 3 I thinl, and the name at the top of the name list was genisis.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 04 March 2019, 04:17:53
These are my picks, and ones I'd use myself. Of them I think Ace Mendoza and Blaze Burns are the most metal sounding (and thus, Horse appropriate) and the other two I love for the pun value.
Cornelious was one I have had in mind for a while. I am thinking of using Blaze Burns as a starmate.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 04 March 2019, 04:20:38
If you don't use Cash Purchase, I one hundred percent will. That is incredible.

Actually I am strongly leaning in that direction. It was not totally random, as I had generated a list of 12 first names and was running the random number generator for the bloodname, getting Fletcher, Cooper and finally Purchase. Then I saw Cash in the first name list and thought
... Oh, yeah... nice.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 05 March 2019, 10:58:50
After playing Trial of Position I am proud to intrduce Star Commander Cash of the Purchase Bloodname.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 05 March 2019, 13:48:45
What exactly are the Clan Colors? Red and Black?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 05 March 2019, 14:56:48
Which Galaxy? Cause traditional, it's Star League Grey, which is a greenish-grey... you could colour it a a little darker than medium grey, highlighted with flames... Black and Red is Widowmaker/Wolf's Dragoons.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 05 March 2019, 15:24:26
I was thinking of making a home brew unit for Iota Galaxy, the 333rd Mechanized Strike Cluster (Hell's Highlanders) with this symbol.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 05 March 2019, 16:13:51
Great name and logo, I can't wait to see what you put together.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 06 March 2019, 02:15:49
Something doesn't sit right with me with the logo. I think it is the horns.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 06 March 2019, 09:12:51
Horns? They look like ears on top of a horse.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Ruger on 06 March 2019, 10:19:36
Horns? They look like ears on top of a horse.

TT

The white objects in the logo look like horns to me.

Ruger
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 06 March 2019, 14:49:57
Ah...now I  see them, thought  you were going Colts on me...

Suggest making the horns in flames or flame like pillars of fire.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 06 March 2019, 16:18:46
A couple of new versions.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 07 March 2019, 06:57:55
I am pretty sure this was asked before, but which of the classic Omnis were developed either by the Horses or partially b the Horses?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 07 March 2019, 09:48:36
I am pretty sure this was asked before, but which of the classic Omnis were developed either by the Horses or partially b the Horses?
Of the original 16 Omnis? I think just the Nova & Hellbringer.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 07 March 2019, 10:15:04
Of the original 16 Omnis? I think just the Nova & Hellbringer.

Also the Stormcrow, but the Horses weren't able to put it into production before losing Tokasha to the Bears.  It was put into production by the Bears' allies, the Ravens.  (I wonder if the Horses didn't call it something different during development.)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 13 March 2019, 11:30:36
I have put myself into a tight spot. I wanted to go with the Iota Galaxy, but the mechs I like are all omnis. What are the chances Star Commander Cash Purchase and his star would have omnis in Iota?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 13 March 2019, 11:31:11
I would not want to have to create a new galaxy, a cluster is pushing it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Deadborder on 14 March 2019, 04:39:51
I have put myself into a tight spot. I wanted to go with the Iota Galaxy, but the mechs I like are all omnis. What are the chances Star Commander Cash Purchase and his star would have omnis in Iota?

15-20%
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 14 March 2019, 06:51:53
Also the Stormcrow, but the Horses weren't able to put it into production before losing Tokasha to the Bears.  It was put into production by the Bears' allies, the Ravens.  (I wonder if the Horses didn't call it something different during development.)
Since it was based off of the Corvis, in TRO 3050U it's called the Omni-Corvis.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 14 March 2019, 22:18:42
I have put myself into a tight spot. I wanted to go with the Iota Galaxy, but the mechs I like are all omnis. What are the chances Star Commander Cash Purchase and his star would have omnis in Iota?

What era is this?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 15 March 2019, 10:14:31
Between late invasion and late Jihad. I am flexible as far as that goes.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 15 March 2019, 17:54:17
Does anyone here have the heavy jump infantry or fast recon minis from IWM? What is the quality like? Also, please post on my clan paint scheme thread.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 15 March 2019, 20:05:44
Since it was based off of the Corvis, in TRO 3050U it's called the Omni-Corvis.

With another Raven-esque name, I wonder if the Corvis was originally developed by the Snow Ravens, went out of fashion after the development of the omnimech except with the Horses, who then used the Corvis as the basis for the Stormcrow, which then went full-circle back to the Ravens after the Horses lost Tokasha.

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 15 March 2019, 22:10:59
Between late invasion and late Jihad. I am flexible as far as that goes.

Given that Iota is a dumping ground, it seems pretty unlikely the whole Star would end up with Omnis, even in the halcyon days of the back half of the 31st century. Mayyyybe the Star Commander would have an Omni since he's Bloodnamed, but personally I'd say anything beyond that would be pushing it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 15 March 2019, 22:17:27
I'm looking at FM:U now and at least in 3067 you're looking at something like 2-4 Omnis per Cluster at best in Iota. Also, it's a secondline Galaxy, which means they don't use the Mechanized Clusters. Honestly, I think you'd probably be better off just running a frontline force, it sounds like that's what would suit what you're going for better anyway.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 19 March 2019, 07:12:17
Do we have a founding date for Kappa Galaxy?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 19 March 2019, 07:28:23
Do we have a founding date for Kappa Galaxy?

Sometime between the rise of James Cobb as Khan in 3065 and the release of FMU in 3067. I've not seen anything more specific than that.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 19 March 2019, 10:06:38
Well that should narrow it down enough. So for a warrior to join kappa at a lower experience level but still with experience, what would be the best time for him to be decanted, 3047, 3050?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 19 March 2019, 18:23:51
Mid-to-late 3040s, yeah.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 20 March 2019, 06:49:10
Hypothetical question: given that Vantaa is within Hell's Horses space, would it have been possible for the Horses to secretly fix up the wrecked Cage's Pride over the subsequent decades and hold it back as the ultimate ace in the hole?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 20 March 2019, 07:22:19
I am not sure if their yard is mobile, is it?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 20 March 2019, 08:03:43
I am not sure if their yard is mobile, is it?

My thinking is that they salvaged stuff from what was left of the naval repair yards at the Dark Nebula and Star's End and put something together on-site, in the Vantaa system itself. Not a full-fledged facility, mind you, just the skeletal version needed to get a single wrecked WarShip back up and running on a multi-decade timescale (a la what the Taurians did with the TCW Vandenburg).
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 20 March 2019, 10:40:41
Surprisingly the Cage's Pride doesn't have its destruction directly stated, just things like wilting under the Jade Falcon firepower and that they lost their orbital support.

It also says that only a Cluster escaped (all of this on page 85 of Wars of Reaving btw). That could be taken as "Out all all the forces, including the WarShips, only a Cluster of troops escaped." Or not. You also have to ask how the Cluster of troops escaped and jumped away...

As for the original question, I assume it could be salvageable, especially since they didn't go through any real effort to describe why it wouldn't be. After all, the combat it went through was simple combat. Its not like it was ripped in half by something jumping nearby, etc etc.

Weren't the Ravens able to salvage some of their WarShips without any mobile facilities? If so, the Horses should be able to as well. You don't need to repair it completely in the field, just enough to make sure it can survive jumping to your repair facilities.

edit
Just checked Jihad Secrets and it lists the Cage's Pride as actually destroyed, so that's something. But I think the point still stands, it didn't really die in anyway that would make me think it was completely unrepairable.
/edit
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 20 March 2019, 15:19:46
I am not the best painter, especially at this scale, but I am working on a Kappa Galaxy unit. Unfortunately the photo is too large. :(
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 20 March 2019, 15:53:54
Now that I am painting them, I am not sure I am really getting into the colors. :(
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 03 April 2019, 05:13:10
Fellow Horses: do you have any recommendations for the best Horse-available fighters to use as bombers?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 03 April 2019, 07:51:09
Kirghiz C.  Guns, and two points of Elementals :p
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 03 April 2019, 09:04:13
Kirghiz C.  Guns, and two points of Elementals :p

Aye, but supported by Xerexs fighters.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 11 April 2019, 11:32:51
Hello horses could someone tell me more about contract bidding? Both in universe how common did the horses do this during the invasion era? How do you work it into your games?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 12 April 2019, 12:42:45
Quickway is to offer support in the form of using your clan forces in battle for a piece of salvage or tech that may be harder for you to achieve alone.

Whither it's supplies, orbital insertion,  defense or attack...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 12 April 2019, 13:38:36
Quickway is to offer support in the form of using your clan forces in battle for a piece of salvage or tech that may be harder for you to achieve alone.

Whither it's supplies, orbital insertion,  defense or attack...

TT

Do the horses always make the offer first?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: rebs on 12 April 2019, 14:09:25
Somebody has to.

Without a party making an offer, it is difficult to get a contract bid to come together.  The Horses made their offer to the Coyotes and ran the operation against Kindraa Smyth-Jewel to boot. 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 12 April 2019, 16:56:56
Somebody has to.

Without a party making an offer, it is difficult to get a contract bid to come together.  The Horses made their offer to the Coyotes and ran the operation against Kindraa Smyth-Jewel to boot.

Thank you for the info. If for example ilkhan osis had reached out to malavai fletcher the ardent crusader to contract some horses to drive off serpent how would that be arraigned do the horses always get operational control?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 16 April 2019, 12:40:14
Herr is a hypothetical. Say the Horses never lose Tokasha. Does anything change?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 16 April 2019, 14:18:23
We take our love for Clan Share Bear elsewhere?

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 16 April 2019, 14:21:42
Maybe depending on the severity of the damage (if the Ghost Bear Khan is still killed) the Horses and the Bears might become allies as they both adopt Warden mentalities during the invasion. Maybe the Crusaders don't get a majority in the Hell Horses and then they work together as close as the Ravens and Bears.

Just a hope thrown out there.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 04 June 2019, 05:20:41
Given that we've seen the Horses use some of the Society ProtoMechs, like the Sprite and Hobgoblin, do you all think it would be out of line for the Horses to deploy Minotaur Zs in the modern era?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 04 June 2019, 18:19:08
I wouldn't see why they wouldn't be willing to field them. The Minotaur Z doesn't field any real Society tech, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't have fielded them during the Wars of Reaving, much less the modern era when there's no real reason to care.

Now whether they would bother to produce them when they have their own variants...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 05 June 2019, 04:13:44
I bring it up because I'm toying with the notion of a Nova built around five Baliuses, two Points of Minotaur Zs, and three Points of some other ProtoMech (I'm leaning toward Procyon-Qs at the moment but I'm still not sure). Feels like that could be pretty devastating in a way most opponents wouldn't see coming, since most people tend to grossly underestimate the Balius.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 05 June 2019, 08:00:31
Seems like a good idea. The extra range on the iHMLs compared to the P2's iHSLs will help, and the speed with the IJJs is nice and lets them maneuver better.

Not sure about the Q's. I'll have to check them out later.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 06 June 2019, 04:00:34
The Procyon Quad would work well since it can keep up with the Balius and can be used to crit seek while the Minotaurs open up holes. Seems like a pretty nasty combination to face against.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 06 June 2019, 12:04:36
The Procyon Quad would work well since it can keep up with the Balius...

I like to run Procyon Quads in front of Enyos and alongside or in front of Notoses (Noti?), depending on the configuration.  Good mix of superior capabilities at 6/9 speed for second line or non-mech forces.

Throw in some Buraqs and A5 and/or some Elemental (APGR) or Elemental II suits riding side-saddle on the Notoses, and it’s a pretty complete force that can take on most anything except in the worst terrain.



Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 09 June 2019, 22:57:56
A hypothetical Supernova I'm toying with. Let me know what y'all think.

Nova Alpha
Balius P (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45501.msg1510724#msg1510724)
Balius P
Balius P
Balius P
Balius P
Minotaur Z
Minotaur Z
Procyon-Q
Procyon-Q
Procyon-Q

Minotaur Z
Minotaur Z
Procyon-Q
Procyon-Q
Procyon-Q

Minotaur Z
Minotaur Z
Procyon-Q
Procyon-Q
Procyon-Q

Minotaur Z
Minotaur Z
Procyon-Q
Procyon-Q
Procyon-Q

Minotaur Z
Minotaur Z
Procyon-Q
Procyon-Q
Procyon-Q


Nova Beta
Notos B
Notos B
Notos B
Notos B
Notos B
Notos C
Notos C
Notos C
Notos C
Notos C
Gnome (Cavalry)  (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=12587.0)Point
Gnome (Cavalry) Point
Gnome (Cavalry) Point
Gnome (Cavalry) Point
Gnome (Cavalry) Point

Star Gamma
Enyo Strike Tank
Enyo Strike Tank
Enyo Strike Tank
Enyo Strike Tank
Enyo Strike Tank
Garuda Heavy VTOL
Garuda Heavy VTOL
Garuda Heavy VTOL
Garuda Heavy VTOL
Garuda Heavy VTOL


I'm playing with the idea of maybe swapping the Garudas for Badger-Cs and making the third Star a Nova as well (possibly battlesuits, possibly heavy jump infantry), but the Garudas do have the advantage of making it much easier to spot opponents at a distance  At any rate, I like the idea that all loaded up, the whole Trinary can keep a uniform 6/9 speed going.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 10 June 2019, 08:17:17

First off, I spit on the Balius.  What an ugly design conceptually and in terms of the art.  Ptooey!  But that’s my problem, not yours.

Will the Baliuses (Balii?) maintain 6/9 with the Minotaurs mounted?  If not, then the formation will actually move at 5/8 or 4/6 or whatever when loaded up.

I might vary the Balius and Notos configs more.  Between the Balius P and the Notos C, you have a full electronics suite (ECM, Probe, TAG) in each point in those novas.  Maybe you want that given the number of BA and protos to support in each point.  But if not, it’s a lot of tonnage spent on duplicative capabilities for each nova.

I’ve used the Garuda for flavor in Horse TO&Es but doubt its utility given its slow speed for a VTOL.  For campaigns or games, I’d buy Balacs off the Foxes for fire support on a reasonably fast VTOL platform.  But that would ruin the common 6/9 speed your were going for.

I like the idea of Badgers and unarmored infantry for Gamma.  You’d have every kind of nova (proto, BA, infantry) in one supernova trinary, which is cool.  Without knowing how this fits into a cluster, I’d go with the Badgers and infantry if you dropped the VTOLs.

Overall, I really like this supernova trinary.  Really overwhelming capabilities and numbers within the Horse mounted cavalry framework.  I especially like Alpha’s mixing of Procyon Qs on the ground with another proto design riding mounted in the same point.  I’ll almost certainly borrow that.

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 10 June 2019, 13:58:14
First off, I spit on the Balius.  What an ugly design conceptually and in terms of the art.  Ptooey!  But that’s my problem, not yours.

Oh man, you're missing out! The Balius is actually secretly a great 'Mech, and here's why. (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=5569.msg129365#msg129365)

Will the Baliuses (Balii?) maintain 6/9 with the Minotaurs mounted?  If not, then the formation will actually move at 5/8 or 4/6 or whatever when loaded up.

Yes; they're nine tons each and the Balius being an Omni subtracts three from their carrying weight, and if the carried units are less than 25% of the carrier's weight, there's no MP loss.

(Also, re: Balii...it's only the 'i' ending if it's Latin [which is why it's octopuses rather than octopi, for example], and Balius is Greek, so it's just the standard 'es' plural)

I might vary the Balius and Notos configs more.  Between the Balius P and the Notos C, you have a full electronics suite (ECM, Probe, TAG) in each point in those novas.  Maybe you want that given the number of BA and protos to support in each point.  But if not, it’s a lot of tonnage spent on duplicative capabilities for each nova.

Point well taken, I will give that due consideration. My main thought with the Notos combo was to load up the Bs with semi-guided rounds and use the Cs to TAG for them, but perhaps a bit more variety would make the force more well-rounded overall, especially since the remaining ranged punch is really just coming from the Garudas and the LPLs on the Enyos, and those are arguably the most vulnerable part of the Trinary.

I like the idea of Badgers and unarmored infantry for Gamma.  You’d have every kind of nova (proto, BA, infantry) in one supernova trinary, which is cool.  Without knowing how this fits into a cluster, I’d go with the Badgers and infantry if you dropped the VTOLs.

Like I said, it is verrrry tempting. It's very much a question of pure utility (on the VTOL side of the scale) versus the sheer pleasure of variety (which is certainly not without its own merits).

I especially like Alpha’s mixing of Procyon Qs on the ground with another proto design riding mounted in the same point.  I’ll almost certainly borrow that.

Yeah, I was very pleased with myself when I hit upon that. Borrow away, by all means.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 10 June 2019, 14:24:48
Oh man, you're missing out! The Balius is actually secretly a great 'Mech...

Oh, I know the Balius was designed to take advantage of the quad squat in Clan trials and all.  Not a bad idea.

But conceptually I can’t get past the laser anus that appears on multiple configurations, nor the awkward/decidedly non-military/fantastical ProtoMech-ish artwork.

A “Balius II” with some different design choices and better art would be great for me.  But that’s just me.

I will say that, given its handcrafted and totemic nature, five Baliuses in a single star seems unlikely.  But I know that’s not necessarily what you’re going for in Tau.

Quote
Yes; they're nine tons each and the Balius being an Omni subtracts three from their carrying weight, and if the carried units are less than 25% of the carrier's weight, there's no MP loss.

Good.  Awesome.  Then I’m definitely stealing this.

Edit:  The Minotaur P2/Procyon Q combo could mechanize on a lot of classic Horse OmniMechs like the Nova, Stormcrow and Hellbringer (although the latter might be more about augmenting mech armor than deploying protos). 

I also noticed that, in theory, the Horses could get hold of the Ravens’ Gorgon 5, which is advertised with Streaks (SRM or LRM is unclear) and Magclamps in TRO3150.  I don’t think the RS ever came out for that, so the design specifics are probably uncertain.  But the Gorgon 5 may be a better option than the Minotaur P2.

There’s also a Raven Cecerops with Magclamps, but I don’t really see the point given the Cecerops inherent speed.  And also whatever Hobgoblins the Horses got from the Homeworlds (meh).

Would also be interesting to run this nova with different mobile protomechs on the ground, like Rocs at 5/8 or Satyrs at 7/11.

Quote
Point well taken, I will give that due consideration. My main thought with the Notos combo was to load up the Bs with semi-guided rounds and use the Cs to TAG for them, but perhaps a bit more variety would make the force more well-rounded overall, especially since the remaining ranged punch is really just coming from the Garudas and the LPLs on the Enyos, and those are arguably the most vulnerable part of the Trinary.

I forgot to say that I also liked how you mixed five long-range configurations of the Notos for fire support and five short-ranged Notos configurations for BA transport in Beta.  It’s almost a self-contained trinary.  Good stuff.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 10 June 2019, 22:21:20
Looks like a pretty brutal Supernova.

I'm kind of curious as to how the Garuda performs, though I suspect once your force manages to close with the enemy, they're going to have something to think about other than shooting at VTOLs hanging out further away. I do wonder if its really all that much better than the Donar.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 14 June 2019, 14:25:17
Well, I haven't had the chance to use them yet myself, but it seems like the chin turret would make it a lot easier to stay at max range while keeping the TMMs up.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 21 June 2019, 05:31:26
Lately I've been toying with the idea of scaling the Nova concept up to the Cluster scale -- which is to say, creating a Cluster in which every single Star is a Nova of some kind. I've got some notions around how I'd like to structure it -- essentially, it would consist of four Trinaries that have one Nova each based off of 'Mechs, QuadVees and tanks, along with various pairings of battlesuits, ProtoMechs and conventional infantry as suits the unit, rounded out with a Binary or Trinary of ASFs paired with BA -- but I'm still at a bit of a loss for what to call it. The best I've come up with is Mechanized Nova Cluster, but that sounds kinda redundant.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 21 June 2019, 06:16:53
Lately I've been toying with the idea of scaling the Nova concept up to the Cluster scale -- which is to say, creating a Cluster in which every single Star is a Nova of some kind. I've got some notions around how I'd like to structure it -- essentially, it would consist of four Trinaries that have one Nova each based off of 'Mechs, QuadVees and tanks, along with various pairings of battlesuits, ProtoMechs and conventional infantry as suits the unit, rounded out with a Binary or Trinary of ASFs paired with BA -- but I'm still at a bit of a loss for what to call it. The best I've come up with is Mechanized Nova Cluster, but that sounds kinda redundant.

 Cluster Nova or Nova Cluster, Keep it simple.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 21 June 2019, 08:13:18
Lately I've been toying with the idea of scaling the Nova concept up to the Cluster scale -- which is to say, creating a Cluster in which every single Star is a Nova of some kind.

Going off Sarna’s take on Crusader Clans, every ground star in most/all Horse clusters is a nova, either mech/BA or vehicle/infantry.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Touman

Quote
I've got some notions around how I'd like to structure it -- essentially, it would consist of four Trinaries that have one Nova each based off of 'Mechs, QuadVees and tanks, along with various pairings of battlesuits, ProtoMechs and conventional infantry as suits the unit, rounded out with a Binary or Trinary of ASFs paired with BA

That sounds like the Goliath Scorpion Mixed Services Trinaries in the 4th Striker Cluster from the old Clan Wolf SB.  But instead of a star each of mechs, BA, and fighters, you have a nova each of mechs/BA, quadvees/protos, and vehicles/infantry.

Toughest part is that there are only a couple canon omni-quadvees and only a few magclamped protos available to the Horses.  Could get repetitive across four nova trinaries.

Quote
but I'm still at a bit of a loss for what to call it. The best I've come up with is Mechanized Nova Cluster, but that sounds kinda redundant.

I’d use that word “Mixed”.  Mixed Cavalry Cluster or Mixed Mechanized Cluster.  To the latter, you could add weight descriptors, like Mixed Mechanized Striker Cluster or Mixed Mechanized Assault Cluster.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 05 September 2019, 20:00:53
How long did it take for the horses to move everything to their inner strength here? While I know they have some Potemkins did they have to rent out additional transportation?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 05 September 2019, 23:25:33
IIRC, all the answers to that are found in the Wars of Reaving sourcebook.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 24 October 2019, 00:29:23
How many Kokou would you say are left in the old Cache - Solahma, or just plain traded away / left behind?

Any chance Society got some?

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 24 October 2019, 11:12:31
They're pure Clantech. There's really no reason for them to be cached, and no reason to leave them behind or stop using them, other than breaking down to the point of being salvaged.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 16 November 2019, 06:05:16
Folks, I need your help!

Trying to do an OOB (Order Of Battle) for the Horses and we came across a problem. The Infantry.

Of all the Clans, the Horses are pretty much the only one to deploy Infantry in anything beyond a mere security or anti-bandit role. Save them, the Spirits who have to because they have no other recourse, and the Bears (largely as the Dominion) they're the only Clan that uses infantry anywhere near the front line or actually on it.

But how do they deploy them? Especially during a REVIVAL era setting.

Are infantry Star's (of any type, Motorized, jump pack, foot etc) part of a Cluster and just bid away 9/10 times, or are they attached to a Cluster on a more adhoc manner, or are they even part of the Cluster with several Stars of infantry attached to a Galaxy (5 stars would be 625 infantry after all), but not viewed as part of their order of battle (as you'd then have to take into account the transport forces, as well as things like engineers, medics, etc etc etc).

The idea me and Beachhead came up with is that the Infantry Stars, engineer formations, logistics units etc are a permanent fixture on a Galaxies OOB and are even part of certain Clusters that they have a history with, but on the whole they are part of the Galaxies HQ and are dolled out as needed. Against a Clan, such forces would just be bid away in most cases, but against the Inner Sphere that might well change.

The big problem is that with  the Horses going and having lots of Nova formations (Star of Mechs and a Star of Tanks or Elementals or if the tanks can carry them anyhow, Elementals for sure!) is that a Hell's Horse cluster is BIG in numerical terms and if you add infantry Stars into the mix you're going to go beyond the 5 star to a cluster formation without wanting to bid away chunks of your Cluster if they are infantry/tank Nova's. And, by deploying more Nova formations, the Horses clusters would be numerically very big compared to other Clan's but if the 5 Trinaries to a Cluster is the upper limit of their size as mandated by Nicky's dumb ideas then you have to either have the infantry attached in some other way or form an Infantry Galaxy which then doles out the troops as needed and use the Galaxy basically as an administrative formation.

What do you folks think?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Ruger on 16 November 2019, 07:02:01
Folks, I need your help!

Trying to do an OOB (Order Of Battle) for the Horses and we came across a problem. The Infantry.

Of all the Clans, the Horses are pretty much the only one to deploy Infantry in anything beyond a mere security or anti-bandit role. Save them, the Spirits who have to because they have no other recourse, and the Bears (largely as the Dominion) they're the only Clan that uses infantry anywhere near the front line or actually on it.

But how do they deploy them? Especially during a REVIVAL era setting.

Per FMCC, page 59: “ The average Hell’s Horses Cluster consists of five Trinaries, of which Alpha, Beta and Gamma are typically BattleMech and Elemental mixed. The ratio of ‘Mechs to Elementals varies with the Trinary’s function in the Cluster, but both of these assets are always present in these units. Trinary Delta is usually aerospace fighter support, the only pure Trinary in a standard cluster. Trinary Epsilon is normally a Supernova of conventional armor and conventional infantry, and serves as the Cluster’s support element.”

Earlier on the same page, it is stated “all vehicle Stars contain an equivalent number of conventional infantry Points.”

Now, I could easily see this as each point of armor consists of one mainline combat unit and one infantry fighting vehicle paired together with the latter carrying a point of conventional infantry. Pairing Epona’s and Svantovit’s (I’m fond of the original model for the paired Streak-4’s and 3 ton infantry bay) makes sense to me for this in hover units. You could also have heavier tracked unit pairings, VTOL pairings, etc.. Vehicles with larger cargo bays may conceivably transport infantry and field guns.

Ruger
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 16 November 2019, 07:17:29
Per FMCC, page 59: “ The average Hell’s Horses Cluster consists of five Trinaries, of which Alpha, Beta and Gamma are typically BattleMech and Elemental mixed. The ratio of ‘Mechs to Elementals varies with the Trinary’s function in the Cluster, but both of these assets are always present in these units. Trinary Delta is usually aerospace fighter support, the only pure Trinary in a standard cluster. Trinary Epsilon is normally a Supernova of conventional armor and conventional infantry, and serves as the Cluster’s support element.”

Earlier on the same page, it is stated “all vehicle Stars contain an equivalent number of conventional infantry Points.”

Now, I could easily see this as each point of armor consists of one mainline combat unit and one infantry fighting vehicle paired together with the latter carrying a point of conventional infantry. Pairing Epona’s and Svantovit’s (I’m fond of the original model for the paired Streak-4’s and 3 ton infantry bay) makes sense to me for this in hover units. You could also have heavier tracked unit pairings, VTOL pairings, etc.. Vehicles with larger cargo bays may conceivably transport infantry and field guns.

Ruger


Ooh! That's useful information! Thank you :D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 16 November 2019, 20:46:47
Also don't forget about the Bandit C models, Wolf's Dragoons brought them over when the came...

And there's the Enyo to content with, also Fast Recon infantry at 20 personnel each.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Ruger on 17 November 2019, 06:03:05
Also don't forget about the Bandit C models, Wolf's Dragoons brought them over when the came...

And there's the Enyo to content with, also Fast Recon infantry at 20 personnel each.

TT

I believe the Badger C would pair well with the Enyo.

The Bandit C would be a good alternative to the Svantovit, especially for jump infantry units

Ruger
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: marauder648 on 19 November 2019, 23:24:48
Just gonna leave this here for folks :D

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=67577.0
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 26 November 2019, 05:20:05
Is this guy the namesake of current Horses saKhan Fulk Lassenerra?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulk_III,_Count_of_Anjou
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 18 January 2020, 14:58:04
It never occurred to me until now but is horsemanship prized by this clan? I mean their totem animal which is a meat eating horse was probably not ride able but what have the non blood thristy as regular horses?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 18 January 2020, 15:31:50
I think some of the early Dark Ages novels when Malvina first encounters them has the Horses kind of running around like its the 1300s or whatever, but I don't think I've seen it any place else (And you could claim that the scene I'm thinking about is just Beta with its Mongol leanings and the rest of the Horses are like "Yeah, they're kind of nuts").
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 18 January 2020, 15:53:44
I think some of the early Dark Ages novels when Malvina first encounters them has the Horses kind of running around like its the 1300s or whatever, but I don't think I've seen it any place else (And you could claim that the scene I'm thinking about is just Beta with its Mongol leanings and the rest of the Horses are like "Yeah, they're kind of nuts").

Lol I know their was a huge range on his intent their totems the various clans got so yes that makes sense
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 24 January 2020, 12:34:14
Its in Rending of Falcons, and its the Fire Horse Galaxy, and it indicates they take them with them with even Malvina wondering what they do with them when it comes to high-g maneuvers.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 14 April 2020, 08:17:50
Did the horses dislike all fire mandrill kindraa?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 14 April 2020, 09:13:03
Most of them. They had special reason to dislike the Smythe-Jewel Kindraa, but they basically destroyed that.

However, FM:Crusader Clan has a small note on what each Clan thinks about the other. The one about the Fire Mandrills for the Horses is "The factional lot has perverted Kerensky's ideals; most of them deserve to be destroyed like the Kindraa Smythe-Jewel. The exception is the Kindraa Payne, who deserve credit for their honor."
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 14 April 2020, 13:18:05
Most of them. They had special reason to dislike the Smythe-Jewel Kindraa, but they basically destroyed that.

However, FM:Crusader Clan has a small note on what each Clan thinks about the other. The one about the Fire Mandrills for the Horses is "The factional lot has perverted Kerensky's ideals; most of them deserve to be destroyed like the Kindraa Smythe-Jewel. The exception is the Kindraa Payne, who deserve credit for their honor."

See this is one of the reasons I really like the horses. Even when they put down another faction they go out of their way to add nuance. “ most of those mandrills are jerks. But the paynes? Those guys are all right!”
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 06 July 2020, 13:15:29
So, fellow Horses, any thoughts on the new stuff we got in the latest RecGuide?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 06 July 2020, 18:21:28
Did the Horses get anything from the REcGuide?

edit
Oh the Behemoth stuff I guess. Anything else?
/edit
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 06 July 2020, 23:47:20
I have to admit, my first thought is "Is this something the Horses need?" In between the other 6 variants of the Behemoth, the Annihilators, Cygnuses, Hellstars...

Now, that's not to say the Behemoth is bad. The 7 is a nasty little energy design that can keep going where as the standard variants run out of GR ammo. The 8 is a nice little touch when you're got Jade Falcons jumping all over the place and you want to equalize the field.

It looks like the Horses are a big (ish) user of the Grendel, but I think I'd have to play around with the variants before I remark much on them, though I like the Horses getting a fast mover like that.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Deadborder on 08 July 2020, 02:53:33
The Behemoth 8 is kind of silly fun. The temptation to go around punching things for laughs is pretty strong.

The new Grendel configurations are... eccentric.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 08 July 2020, 10:15:06
Most of them. They had special reason to dislike the Smythe-Jewel Kindraa, but they basically destroyed that.

However, FM:Crusader Clan has a small note on what each Clan thinks about the other. The one about the Fire Mandrills for the Horses is "The factional lot has perverted Kerensky's ideals; most of them deserve to be destroyed like the Kindraa Smythe-Jewel. The exception is the Kindraa Payne, who deserve credit for their honor."

Was that galaxy level conflict very unusual for the time?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 08 July 2020, 11:01:32
No, but that particular fought their battles and observed the ritual duel without cheating much, unlike others... Smythe-Jewel Kindraa, which attacked us with provocation. They killed without mercy.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 08 July 2020, 11:28:45
Yeah, eccentric is a good word.

The F will murder anything almost anything but Mechs, and only for 10 rounds. Against Mechs it can play the heat game, but its actual damage output, even using HE ATM ammo, won't cause a PSR. Good if you're expecting heavy non-mech forces, but the endurance is pretty limited.

G is a short range battery of micropulse and medium pulse lasers. With a Watchdog. Short range electronic warfare, short range combat and a bunch of AI damage. Don't have to worry about ammo. Some heat problems if you try to fire everything and jump, but nothing too outrageously bad. Okay for Scout hunting, good for criting-seeking and AI damage. Probably good at getting past a proto's "Near miss" result with lots of little hits. Oh, and a supercharger, just incase 7/11/7 wasn't fast enough.

I is oddity. PAC backed by a IS Plasma Rifle, back by an ERML. Not...really sure what to do with it.

J is a bunch of Streak 6's backed by a mix of SLs of various types. Kind of reminds me of a Kintaro variant.

M is a RAC backed by a ERLL. For when you want to stay way, way way way way way over on the other side of the game and annoy your opponent. Or maybe crit them out if you're lucky.

T is pretty normal reminds me of a Hellhound/Conjurer. LPL backed by lasers and missiles. Perhaps the most "normal" design out of them.

None of them bother with actuators in the RA, so that aesthetic remains the same.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 08 July 2020, 11:52:43
Was that galaxy level conflict very unusual for the time?

We don't really know. Its kind of murky back then. I mean, you sort of think things are going to be all Trials and what not, but you also see things like multi-Galaxy conflict between the Bears and Horses on Tokasha, so maybe large-scale conflicts isn't too unusual.

Though I will note that the combined Horse/Coyote forces is describe as "nearly three full Clusters" so it would've been half a galaxy.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 08 July 2020, 12:31:11
And it depended on which units too... Horses used Nova commands and also more Binaryou features than others. Stars of PBI weren't uncommon either. Simple Nova of Indra and foot infantry makes since,  Bandit  / Badger -C formations...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 02 August 2020, 00:02:04
Question RE: the horses IS invasion. I know khan fletcher made the contract bid with vlad but was that supposed to be just a short term deal and not a path towards full migration?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 02 August 2020, 04:37:05
Depends on who you ask.

Vlad was hiring some ablative armor.

Malavai was looking for a hunting ground to get some bears. I am not sure anyone at that time other than the Bears, Exiles, and Cats were looking beyond exploitable occupation zones.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 02 August 2020, 15:02:11
Question RE: the horses IS invasion. I know khan fletcher made the contract bid with vlad but was that supposed to be just a short term deal and not a path towards full migration?

According to the War of Reavings they were planning a migration.  I got the impression the wanted a foot in each door so they could get the resources from the Inner Sphere and have the production of the Homeworlds.  In the end they have the resources and even with the Wolves pulls out limited production one of the reasons on why the Mongol Doctrine was pushed forward for the Hell’s Horses.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 15 August 2020, 01:29:20
We're buildin' ******' TIMBIES, y'all!  :D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: SteveRestless on 15 August 2020, 10:37:38
We're buildin' ******' TIMBIES, y'all!  :D

By Hand! (In a cave! Out of scraps!)

Congrats on being the first Non-Wolf Clan to have production of the Timber Wolf Omnimech. The Falcons and the Sea Foxes may have had weird bootlegs of them, but the Horses are now the only other clan (The Exiles are still wolves) to build that fine ride. Me, I'm just genuinely happy to see it thrive :D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 15 August 2020, 10:42:20
Me too!! Always need a fresh source for timberwolf  >:D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 15 August 2020, 12:29:48
 >:D

HAG Timbie...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 15 August 2020, 19:51:49
I assume by 3145 the whole by hand bit has been solved. Still, a nice design to keep in the Horse's repertoire.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 16 August 2020, 19:26:15
I do hope the Horses get something brand new though.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Deadborder on 18 August 2020, 06:44:33
And at long last the Mad Cat is produced by an actually interesting clan. I'll call that a win
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 25 May 2021, 20:55:57
With Tamar Rising (https://bg.battletech.com/news/state-of-the-game-may-2021/) seemingly set to feature Clan Hell's Horses in a major way, I wonder if it might be a good time to resurrect this thread in anticipation of what lies ahead for them in the IlClan Era.

-----

One thing I'm wondering: is there a difference between having one's own "key" to the Fortress walls (such as the one which Ghost Bear Khan Bekker has as of Hour of the Wolf) and otherwise being granted a "pass through" (as was the case when the Horse Khans arrived at Terra near the end of the novel)?

In other words, do the Horses now have their own "key" to the Fortress, which they can use should they wish to take the plunge before the Wolves drop the Wall of their own accord? Or was their entry and exit through the Fortress a one-time thing, which the Wolves could (and most likely would) rescind at their leisure?

Actually, it would be interesting if Alaric allowed the Bear delegation to "pass through", not realizing that Khan Bekker actually has her own "key". One wonders what might happen were a copy of said "key" to fall into the hands of the Horse Khans, without Alaric learning about it until it was too late...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 25 May 2021, 21:40:20
With Tamar Rising (https://bg.battletech.com/news/state-of-the-game-may-2021/) seemingly set to feature Clan Hell's Horses in a major way, I wonder if it might be a good time to resurrect this thread in anticipation of what lies ahead for them in the IlClan Era.

-----

One thing I'm wondering: is there a difference between having one's own "key" to the Fortress walls (such as the one which Ghost Bear Khan Bekker has as of Hour of the Wolf) and otherwise being granted a "pass through" (as was the case when the Horse Khans arrived at Terra near the end of the novel)?

In other words, do the Horses now have their own "key" to the Fortress, which they can use should they wish to take the plunge before the Wolves drop the Wall of their own accord? Or was their entry and exit through the Fortress a one-time thing, which the Wolves could (and most likely would) rescind at their leisure?

Actually, it would be interesting if Alaric allowed the Bear delegation to "pass through", not realizing that Khan Bekker actually has her own "key". One wonders what might happen were a copy of said "key" to fall into the hands of the Horse Khans, without Alaric learning about it until it was too late...
Considering he said “bring it on” to the CHH it might even be the Wolves who gave them the key.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 25 May 2021, 23:03:40
Given what the Fortress needs to operate, having a key might not matter anymore -- Alaric won't be able to keep it up very long even if it turns it back on at all.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 25 May 2021, 23:11:59
Personally, I'm worried for my Horses. They've always been a B-team Clan, like the Snow Ravens or Nova Cats -- big-league enough to survive the Clan-faction culling that was the Wars of Reaving, but not one of the classic trio (Wolf/Falcon/Bear). I don't think the odds of them getting the big promotion are very high, much as I think they deserve it. Sadly, I'm pretty sure this is about to end with another of my favorite factions getting brutally curbstomped.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Turaglas on 26 May 2021, 01:33:29
That implies anyone mobilizes anytime soon.  I have a suspicion the Ravens and Bears have eyes elsewhere.  The Wolf bloc isn't in any shape past Alarics plot armor to single out a House, let alone hold on to the Wolf Empire, Republic worlds, and JFOZ.  I also suspect the Combine and Capellans aren't twiddling their thumbs even with the FWL and Suns being time occupational.  So safe to say the Horses aren't immediately screwed. 

I know the Clans don't see the value of Quadvees, but do the Horses export them to anyone at all?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 26 May 2021, 02:41:51
That implies anyone mobilizes anytime soon.  I have a suspicion the Ravens and Bears have eyes elsewhere.  The Wolf bloc isn't in any shape past Alarics plot armor to single out a House, let alone hold on to the Wolf Empire, Republic worlds, and JFOZ.  I also suspect the Combine and Capellans aren't twiddling their thumbs even with the FWL and Suns being time occupational.  So safe to say the Horses aren't immediately screwed. 

I know the Clans don't see the value of Quadvees, but do the Horses export them to anyone at all?

the MUL says no. they are fairly insulated in their area of space.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 26 May 2021, 06:30:36
I forgot that Stone spilled the beans about handing the Bears the key to the Fortress. So much for that surprise.

But even if the Horses don't get their own key before the system fails of its own accord, there's no reason for them to panic. If they stick to the plan of establishing a forward position towards Terra while grabbing as much of the Falcon OZ as they can - plus select Wolf Empire worlds like Skye - over the next year or so, they should have a good shot at making the jump to the top table.

In fact, it might be as well for them to wait until after the Capellans take their own shot at Terra. Either the Wolves succeed in warding off the CCAF, or the latter succeeds in driving the former off Terra: either way, whomever is left standing would be in a much weakened position should the Horses line themselves up for their own march to Terra.

In which case, if the Horses decide to make their first landing on Terra at a certain location in North America, would this operation be... a Calgary STAMPEDE?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Turaglas on 26 May 2021, 07:17:08
the MUL says no. they are fairly insulated in their area of space.

Darn.  Alright thanks, guess I'll have to slowly decide on a future Galaxy then for quadvees and whatever else I should put in.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 26 May 2021, 09:40:24
Darn.  Alright thanks, guess I'll have to slowly decide on a future Galaxy then for quadvees and whatever else I should put in.

The only Clan that has a few samples of Quadvees are the Falcons taken as isorla. But the Horses are the only ones who use them en masse
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nibs on 26 May 2021, 11:55:53
In which case, if the Horses decide to make their first landing on Terra at a certain location in North America, would this operation be... a Calgary STAMPEDE?

As long as Khan Amirault wears a white cowboy hat!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 26 May 2021, 17:46:17
As long as Khan Amirault wears a white cowboy hat!

If he disrespects any Albertan (Edmonton included) the only thing he’s going to get from me is a swift kick in the hind quarters.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 27 May 2021, 16:57:22
By the way, does the colour scheme for the Horse units on the Tamar Rising cover art match any pre-existing forces within the touman?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Turaglas on 28 May 2021, 16:45:47
Mcdonalds Galaxy, coming to a planet near you.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Mendou on 28 May 2021, 23:06:04
The scarlet-and-yellow matches Kappa Galaxy, I believe. It's not strictly the pattern canonized by CamoSpecs, but the colors match.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 29 May 2021, 00:06:00
I had thought Star Commander Harry Potter of Hogwarts was coming to town!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Mendou on 29 May 2021, 08:33:41
I had thought Star Commander Harry Potter of Hogwarts was coming to town!

TT
From House Hippogriffindor? (As he has to be a Horse, of course. . . .)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: DOC_Agren on 30 May 2021, 14:25:17
In which case, if the Horses decide to make their first landing on Terra at a certain location in North America, would this operation be... a Calgary STAMPEDE?

But would they be able to take the Hart's Dungeon? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hart_Dungeon)  On the other hand I bet the Elementals would love it there?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 30 May 2021, 17:26:33
But would they be able to take the Hart's Dungeon? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hart_Dungeon)  On the other hand I bet the Elementals would love it there?
Depending on how high that ceiling is most elementals couldn’t make it through the front door.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: DOC_Agren on 31 May 2021, 13:47:58
they would not be 1st to put a dent into the room
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 31 May 2021, 16:22:45
they would not be 1st to put a dent into the room

I’m more thinking they put a dent in themselves. I remember stories of sailors knocking themselves out by going down Aircraft Carrier staircases.  I can totally see one story with a sentence beginning “when I woke up...”.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 04 June 2021, 16:08:47
Personally, I'm worried for my Horses. They've always been a B-team Clan, like the Snow Ravens or Nova Cats -- big-league enough to survive the Clan-faction culling that was the Wars of Reaving, but not one of the classic trio (Wolf/Falcon/Bear). I don't think the odds of them getting the big promotion are very high, much as I think they deserve it. Sadly, I'm pretty sure this is about to end with another of my favorite factions getting brutally curbstomped.

Man I hope not! The horses have always been a fav of mine
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Mendou on 05 June 2021, 07:14:36
I doubt the Horses will be getting curbstomped anytime soon--they're unique among the Clans in that the plural is built into their name; they acknowledge that they have to work together to succeed! The Clans need that sort of perspective to keep them from going too far off the deep end (not that that would stop the Jade Falcons). Even if they have their setbacks, they'll probably go on being "a B-team Clan" for years to come.

It is nice seeing them featured on the cover of a sourcebook rather than being relegated to the inner pages only for once. I'll hold out hope that it means they'll actually get a bit of respect this time!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 05 June 2021, 07:24:17
Agreed they are also unique enough that writers and players can have fun with them.  How they come out of Tamar Rising is anyone’s guess but even if they become more Inner Sphere than clan they have still a unique identity compared to some other clan groups (ie Wolves and Falcons).  They also do have had very little plot armour compared to some other factions.  One question I have is if they are doing anything in regards to the “Barrens”?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Turaglas on 06 June 2021, 14:08:13
BT's strength is the diversity and depth of it's major and minor factions.  Something I hope Ilclan doesn't strip the franchise of and copy GW in just throwing more chaos everywhere or shunting half the game like AoS.

I don't even like clans but I want a small unit of HH purely for quadvees since tankmechs have been my jam since the original Armored Core games in the 90s.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 07 June 2021, 12:16:55
Theirs a part of me that says the Hell Horses will always be my enemy. Theirs another part of me that says logically the Hell Horses and Snow Ravens should be my allies due to our unique outlook on unit composition including the use of Battle Armor. Then the part that says ‘Mongol Horde tactics??? Really???  I have ax wielding Berserker’s to show you if you dare’. Then ‘Quad Vee’s?!?! Awesomely weird!’

TLDR: of course the Horses new to stick around!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Turaglas on 07 June 2021, 12:19:55
Well, I can't trust the Ravens because they've been ultra quiet with their khan spinning her web around the Houses.

I think the Mongols are overrated from my history shtick but I like tanks enough to want to keep the Horses around. 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 07 June 2021, 12:44:15
Well, I can't trust the Ravens because they've been ultra quiet with their khan spinning her web around the Houses.

But air-dropping Elementals from Aerospace fighters while tanks morph into mechs, all while little fast ProtoMechs run and gun?!

Just ignore that bio-weapon infested, nuked and bombarded from orbit world.... nothing happened there.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 07 June 2021, 13:52:19
Just ignore that bio-weapon infested, nuked and bombarded from orbit world.... nothing happened there.

Totally an anomaly. You can trust us  O:-)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Turaglas on 07 June 2021, 13:56:45
I'll trust you when I start trusting Wolves and Capellans.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: DOC_Agren on 07 June 2021, 19:32:34
But air-dropping Elementals from Aerospace fighters while tanks morph into mechs, all while little fast ProtoMechs run and gun?!

You got my interest.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Gin on 12 June 2021, 21:40:56
Just ignore that bio-weapon infested, nuked and bombarded from orbit world.... nothing happened there.

...wait, what? Did the horses do that to a world?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jaim Magnus on 12 June 2021, 22:13:11
...wait, what? Did the horses do that to a world?

No, it was the Ravens, during the Jihad.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Empyrus on 16 June 2021, 14:31:34
I take it Hell's Horses haven't come up with anything new for a while, except for the QuadVees?
Looks like the Hel (Loki Mk II) in 3121 is the latest new 'Mech.

Though i guess the Horses have never been an "industrial faction" so to speak, not since the Ghost Bears took Tokasha.

Wonder if we'll see something new Hell's Horses make in Recognition Guides. I do like that bunch of older 'Mechs are put back into production by the Horses though, so no real complaints.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 16 June 2021, 15:56:48
You realise CHH scored pretty much every factory in the Wolf OZ (You can argue with the Wolves what that means)? CHH has the industry of two Clans after 3145. Plus Noyan took New Oslo off the Dominion. Plus at least one whole new factory in RecGuides.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Empyrus on 16 June 2021, 16:01:26
You realise CHH scored pretty much every factory in the Wolf OZ (You can argue with the Wolves what that means)? CHH has the industry of two Clans after 3145. Plus Noyan took New Oslo off the Dominion. Plus at least one whole new factory in RecGuides.

Sorry, make that "inventor faction".
Yes, nice, the Horses have factories. As i said, i like that they're making sure bunch of classics are staying around.
But i'm guess they ain't got scientists or inventive warriors. (Though not saying that's automatically a good thing, Wolves waste time and resources developing a 'Mech to counter DFAs...)

Then again, i guess invention would result in some silliness like the... ah, good, i don't actually recall the stupid OmniMech's name that has a pulse laser in its arse.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 16 June 2021, 16:51:21
It is a question of timing. TRO3050-58 was a great time to be a Falcon or Wolf with a bit extra to the other Invaders. RecGuides is basically TRO3050's Greatest Hits. You aren't the only one missing out. As a Ghost Bear I can say we have only had revisions of old hardware too.
That said expect more next Wave.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Empyrus on 16 June 2021, 17:04:17
The Wolves have gotten the Amarok, Stormwolf, Firestorm, Thresher Mk II, Dominator, Crucible, and Sojourner ifcounting WiE because of the impending reunion. And this is on top of bunch of earlier innovations like the Wulfen, War Wolf, Skinwalker, and Tomahawk II.
The Falcons have gotten the Hierofalcon, Ion Sparrow, Jade Phoenix (not yet but we know they get this), and previously they got the Grand Summoner, their series of Totem 'Mechs.
The Snow Ravens got War Crow and Carrion Crow.
I grant that the Ghost Bears haven't gotten anything but they did at least get some stuff previously, like the Kodiak II.

Just feels like the Hell's Horses burned their brain on the QuadVees. Neat stuff certainly. Just ultimately experimental stuff whose future is not guaranteed, and role on the battlefield is perhaps a bit questionable.

Here's hoping that Horses too get something new with RecGuides. Amount doesn't matter, the Wolves got a lot of stuff but i wouldn't really rate anything highly...

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 16 June 2021, 17:55:24
Contemporary to the Kodiak II.
Buraq
Anat
Hadur
The 4 Quadvees.
Loki Mk2


Again, timing. Click tech focused on Clan Wolf Falcon and Nova Cat. That is a double edged sword because it can get you Ryoken IIs, Mongrels and Gravediggers. But it means a whole game's worth of Mechs and tanks for the Clans involved.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 16 June 2021, 20:12:08
I take it Hell's Horses haven't come up with anything new for a while, except for the QuadVees?
Looks like the Hel (Loki Mk II) in 3121 is the latest new 'Mech.

Though i guess the Horses have never been an "industrial faction" so to speak, not since the Ghost Bears took Tokasha.

Wonder if we'll see something new Hell's Horses make in Recognition Guides. I do like that bunch of older 'Mechs are put back into production by the Horses though, so no real complaints.

The one problem is they had limited mech and tank infrastructure due to location and not moving much before the Wars of Reaving and losing their Homeworld bases. Remember they had to outsource some of their production through Wolves-in-Exile to stay a float.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kasaga on 17 June 2021, 18:14:09
Can someone please explain to me mongrel doctrine and associated Cluster organization?  I am not getting it or finding it unless it was updated on Sarna in the last month or so.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 17 June 2021, 18:20:36
Can someone please explain to me mongrel doctrine and associated Cluster organization?  I am not getting it or finding it unless it was updated on Sarna in the last month or so.

Heavy Mechs and light vehicles.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kasaga on 17 June 2021, 19:27:07
Heavy Mechs and light vehicles.

That's it?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 17 June 2021, 19:45:04
Table top BattleTech is often pretty blunt and mostly about smashing things together.

The hoard of light vehicles swamps the strategic field and forces the opponent to split their forces. The superior numbers provide better awareness and breaks the opponents command cycles. The opponent is then defeated in detail.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 17 June 2021, 21:59:30
That's it?

I tried writing out an explanation but couldn’t come up with it.

But lighter vees do harassment and artillery. Mechs clean up and act as the anvil.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: DOC_Agren on 17 June 2021, 23:50:18
Table top BattleTech is often pretty blunt and mostly about smashing things together.

The hoard of light vehicles swamps the strategic field and forces the opponent to split their forces. The superior numbers provide better awareness and breaks the opponents command cycles. The opponent is then defeated in detail.
so basicly how a dirt poor militia unit can beat an invader force
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 18 June 2021, 00:13:50
Can someone please explain to me mongrel doctrine and associated Cluster organization?  I am not getting it or finding it unless it was updated on Sarna in the last month or so.

Era Report 3145 (pg. 61) has the details. It mentions the First Horde Cluster consisting of two Trinaries and an attached support Supernova. The light Trinary (Mangudai) is made up of Light Mechs and Vehicles, with very few mediums. This Trinary uses hit and run tactics to draw an enemy out of position and into the arms of the other Trinary (Tulughma), which made up of heavy and assault machines. Not much in the way of details on the support Supernova, other than it contains the Horde's few infantry.

So use lights to harass and string your opponent out, then hit them with the heavy stuff. Its...not exactly ground breaking. But when it seems like you're mostly producing lights and assaults, it sort of makes sense. But the units are tiny. 2 Trinaries and a Supernova compared to the 3 mech/Elmental Trinaries (plus novas) a support  Supernova and a Aerospace Trinary of their traditional cluster layout and its lacking.

Good for a stopgap use of materials while you rebuild, but its seemingly a (forgive the term) one trick pony. Building some new Horde Clusters, convert a few other units over maybe...but the fluff suggests that almost the entire Touman was converted. Hopefully things get put back once things start to kick off...


Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 18 June 2021, 00:50:04
Sorry, make that "inventor faction".
Yes, nice, the Horses have factories. As i said, i like that they're making sure bunch of classics are staying around.
But i'm guess they ain't got scientists or inventive warriors. (Though not saying that's automatically a good thing, Wolves waste time and resources developing a 'Mech to counter DFAs...)

Then again, i guess invention would result in some silliness like the... ah, good, i don't actually recall the stupid OmniMech's name that has a pulse laser in its arse.

I dunno. They invented/managed to create a Clan version of the Machina Domini system (Even if the Wolfy wolf wolf wolf wolves managed to design a better known one than the Horses' Parash variant), they're working on a new phenotype (TankWarrior) and they also developed a new unit type, the QuadVee. They also created the Detachable Weapon Pack during the Jihad. So yeah, sometimes they're pretty much the most inventive Clan out there.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Turaglas on 18 June 2021, 01:49:09
I think the quadvee is innovative.  Personally a fan of plain hybrids and not transformers but I can see the value in them when the tracks/wheels blow out.

Now if only we could get more minis of them.  Is this tank phenotype going to be conventional or Quadvee primarily?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 18 June 2021, 04:55:01
Era Report 3145 (pg. 61) has the details. It mentions the First Horde Cluster consisting of two Trinaries and an attached support Supernova. The light Trinary (Mangudai) is made up of Light Mechs and Vehicles, with very few mediums. This Trinary uses hit and run tactics to draw an enemy out of position and into the arms of the other Trinary (Tulughma), which made up of heavy and assault machines. Not much in the way of details on the support Supernova, other than it contains the Horde's few infantry.

So use lights to harass and string your opponent out, then hit them with the heavy stuff. Its...not exactly ground breaking. But when it seems like you're mostly producing lights and assaults, it sort of makes sense. But the units are tiny. 2 Trinaries and a Supernova compared to the 3 mech/Elmental Trinaries (plus novas) a support  Supernova and a Aerospace Trinary of their traditional cluster layout and its lacking.

Good for a stopgap use of materials while you rebuild, but its seemingly a (forgive the term) one trick pony. Building some new Horde Clusters, convert a few other units over maybe...but the fluff suggests that almost the entire Touman was converted. Hopefully things get put back once things start to kick off...
In 3132 every one had undersized Clusters.  They have grown/are growing in FM3145.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Empyrus on 18 June 2021, 05:41:44
I dunno. They invented/managed to create a Clan version of the Machina Domini system (Even if the Wolfy wolf wolf wolf wolves managed to design a better known one than the Horses' Parash variant), they're working on a new phenotype (TankWarrior) and they also developed a new unit type, the QuadVee. They also created the Detachable Weapon Pack during the Jihad. So yeah, sometimes they're pretty much the most inventive Clan out there.
Evidently i need yet another word, i wasn't thinking about inventive in tech sense but as someone who comes up with new units.

As for these specific inventions...

I figure Machina Domini is ultimately a dead-end system in BattleTech. Doesn't suit alternative cockpit styles or gyros, so it tends to be just plain advantageous and mass-efficient, so it doesn't really impact unit design in interesting way, though i'll acknowledge it is advantageous in-universe. More importantly, BattleTech is pretty hostile to transhumanist concepts (common to a lot of scifi i think) both in-universe and in meta sense, so it seems unlikely Interface system has future. Or if it will be relevant, it will take quite a lot of time to get to that point, nothing that's gonna help Horses now.

TankWarriors seem to be somewhat mediocre thing right now. Per ER3145, they're barely better than normal vehicle crews. Perhaps they'll improve, but i'm skeptical they'll ever become as important as the other Clan phenotypes.
I don't think the concept of naturally better vehicle crews is bad, i just reckon that the Horses' starting from MechWarriors and Elementals for this may have been a slight mistake. Naturally you need a starting point, but perhaps stuff like this needs more radical origins: create completely new Bloodnames, with new stock of DNA. This might also help integrate Spheroids: offer them a chance to join the Warrior Caste. But i understand Clans tendency toward conservatism in stuff like this might make this politically impossible, even if new phenotype is itself innovative.

Detachable weapon pack doesn't seem like a big innovation in general, and... well, it certainly wasn't utilized well at first. Still, i'm not gonna dispute its usefulness, especially for a Battle Armor using Clan.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 18 June 2021, 07:57:23
Not everything needs to be new or optimized. As long as it is proven and still gets the job done. The Horses have always been about men winning battles, not machines. The quad-vees are new but still "under development", theexhs mechs they are making aren't exactly taxing their production capabilities and are suitable for the job at hand.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Empyrus on 18 June 2021, 08:31:36
Didn't say anything about optimized (the Wolf machine's issue is more of a BV calculation issue than the 'Mechs themselves being a problem IMO). Just wish for something new. I do very much agree with people mattering more than machines, and the Horses putting proven machines like the Mad Dog back into production is sensible.

Maybe a quad Omni that isn't as derpy as the Balius...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 18 June 2021, 08:38:49
As for these specific inventions...

Oh, I'm not arguing the efficacy of them, just that for a while there there Horses seemed to be the idea Clan, where as everyone else seems to be just "Yeah, let me make a unit with streak LRMs. So innovative!"

Hopefully with the RecGuide series continuing we'll see some more Horse units come out of it, rather than just "Well, we got this factory..."
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 18 June 2021, 10:07:24
TankWarriors seem to be somewhat mediocre thing right now. Per ER3145, they're barely better than normal vehicle crews. Perhaps they'll improve, but i'm skeptical they'll ever become as important as the other Clan phenotypes.
I don't think the concept of naturally better vehicle crews is bad, i just reckon that the Horses' starting from MechWarriors and Elementals for this may have been a slight mistake. Naturally you need a starting point, but perhaps stuff like this needs more radical origins: create completely new Bloodnames, with new stock of DNA. This might also help integrate Spheroids: offer them a chance to join the Warrior Caste. But i understand Clans tendency toward conservatism in stuff like this might make this politically impossible, even if new phenotype is itself innovative.

Considering they will try to take Terra and also invade the rest of the OZ I can see them trying to integrate themselves closer with the IS.  To be honest the potential for growth is one of the reasons why the CHH is starting to grow on me.  Remember this conservatism is mainly with the Wolves and Falcons.  The Sea Foxes are more merchants than warriors and both the Ghost Bears and Snow Ravens are more about integration than subjugation with mixed results.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 18 June 2021, 12:00:07
Not sure what is derpy with the Balius. Each configuration is pretty solid, good speed, decent armor. I love that mech.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Empyrus on 19 June 2021, 13:31:11
Turns out i don't like Hell's Horses paint schemes. Didn't find any i like in Camospecs. This is awkward, i kinda wanted to make my Kickstarter Clan 'Mechs into a Horse unit.
Of course, i can always opt for a camo (have few ideas).
But i guess i'll wait until we'll see how stuff will be going on post-IlClan book before committing.

Not sure what is derpy with the Balius. Each configuration is pretty solid, good speed, decent armor. I love that mech.
Ugly, derpy looking, hand assembled (ie it is inefficient), design-wise inefficient (dropping to 60 tons would free two tons, make it cheaper, and merely lose some internal structure). Also i'm very unhappy with cramming a large pulse laser into a 'Mechs arse, even if quads have harder time watching their backs than bipedals.
I'll grant the configurations are in general pretty smart though, and though inefficiently constructed, the 'Mech doesn't fortunately really suffer for that. Indeed, as configuration variety goes, i will give the Balius good scores.
I suppose my major issue with the 'Mech is that the Horses insisted on combining a totem and OmniMech, would've very strongly preferred focusing on either aspect. An Omni should have more... mechanical/functional lines.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Ruger on 19 June 2021, 18:48:57
Turns out i don't like Hell's Horses paint schemes. Didn't find any i like in Camospecs. This is awkward, i kinda wanted to make my Kickstarter Clan 'Mechs into a Horse unit.
Of course, i can always opt for a camo (have few ideas).
But i guess i'll wait until we'll see how stuff will be going on post-IlClan book before committing.

I rather like the Keshiks, and Alpha, Beta, Zeta and Iota Galaxy schemes myself.

Ruger
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 19 June 2021, 21:59:54
In game terms, does the Horse take on the Mongol Doctrine work any better at the Alpha Strike level than it does in Total Warfare? For one thing, perhaps the more generous way in which movement to-hit modifiers work in AS might favour the light and medium units acting in the "Steppe horse archer" role.

For that matter, do QuadVees - to include the relatively recent Notos (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7959/notos-base) design - function any better (or worse) in AS terms than in TW?

Speaking of QuadVees, I wonder if we might see a broader variety of wheeled types in, or perhaps in the wake of, Tamar Rising.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 20 June 2021, 08:46:13
In game terms, does the Horse take on the Mongol Doctrine work any better at the Alpha Strike level than it does in Total Warfare? For one thing, perhaps the more generous way in which movement to-hit modifiers work in AS might favour the light and medium units acting in the "Steppe horse archer" role.

For that matter, do QuadVees - to include the relatively recent Notos (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7959/notos-base) design - function any better (or worse) in AS terms than in TW?

Speaking of QuadVees, I wonder if we might see a broader variety of wheeled types in, or perhaps in the wake of, Tamar Rising.

Since every Operation Turning point or equivalent has new toys to play with it would not surprise me if we see at least prototypes of new quadvees if not a new quadvee introduced during the taking of Falcon territory.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 20 June 2021, 21:17:22
For that matter, do QuadVees - to include the relatively recent Notos (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7959/notos-base) design - function any better (or worse) in AS terms than in TW?

They gain the Turret special, giving them a 360 attack, which isn't bad. They can switch movement modes, which allows them to play a bit with LOS if you want.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 21 June 2021, 18:14:41
Can someone please explain to me mongrel doctrine and associated Cluster organization?  I am not getting it or finding it unless it was updated on Sarna in the last month or so.

Bowmans, Kingfishers and Epona with an occasional Fast Recon Point!

Sounds about right, quiaff?

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kasaga on 22 June 2021, 03:54:26
Bowmans, Kingfishers and Epona with an occasional Fast Recon Point!

Sounds about right, quiaff?

TT

Aff.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 06 July 2021, 21:45:57
I recently picked up the Kindle edition of a book which takes an in-depth look at ulus Jochi, the Golden Horde (the historical one, as opposed to Malvina Hazen's Golden Ordun); one of the four main sub-divisions of the Mongol Empire. The Jochids, descended from the eldest son of Chinggis Khan (again, the "real one", not the former Jade Falcon leader) ruled over the "north-west" portion of the Mongol dominions.

If one were to look at a "BattleTech-style" political map of the Jochid realm at its height, one might see echoes of the Free Worlds League, but in reverse. The "open" steppe areas would be held by the White Horde of the "main" Batuid line in the centre, the Blue Horde of the secondary Ordaid line to the east, and the Horde of General Nogay to the west. There might be arrows marking each Horde's seasonal migrations, as they made transit from one "capital" site to another and back again. (The Horde did not build walled capitals in the traditional manner of sedentary empires; there were built districts intended to house merchants and artisans from various sedentary peoples in places like Sarai, but the Mongols themselves lived in tent cities that were routinely re-configured and/or re-located as required.) Meanwhile, the sedentary vassals of the Horde, such as the Rus' principalities, might have bounded sub-territories marked, akin to the FWL's major sub-states.

On the one hand, the Jochids demanded tribute from their various subjects, to include a levy on human beings: for one thing, they established a maritime trade route via Constantinople to Alexandria by which they provided slave-soldiers to the armies of the Mamluk Sultanate. But on the other hand, they also worked to foster and diversify trade both within and across their borders, not least by providing merchants access to the yam (the three-tiered long-distance communication system used across the Mongol dominions).

-----

Now, it's noted that the Horses live apart from their Spheroid subjects, in "DropShip cities" around which the locals often build more permanent settlements. And it's also noted that the Horses have a surplus of JumpShips, allowing them to set up command circuits as partial compensation for the loss of the HPG network. However, while the Horse touman has more or less fully embraced the Mongol Doctrine in a strictly military sense, there has as yet not been any signs of the Horses more fully leaning into the Mongol "doctrines" of governance.

Perhaps this might be something which could change during, or in the wake of, the events soon to be portrayed in Tamar Rising. Say, if the Horses were to establish "client states" in certain areas - perhaps even in and around Tamar itself - with their own vassal military forces. That would in effect reverse the relationship which the Clan Protectorate forces have with the "federal" FWLM, and provide an alternate means of expanding the range of military forces under Horse control without necessarily incorporating such forces directly into their own touman.

That said, there could be periodical Trials by which the most promising warriors in such vassal military forces could earn a place in the Horse touman. While in the other direction, vassal military forces could be an option for washout and/or solahma soldiers to be assigned to.

At the same time, they could encourage their subject planets' commercial actors to make use of the Horses' JumpShip express network, rather than merely restricting it to members of the Clan's own merchant caste. Plus they could instruct said merchant caste to take a more direct role in promoting commerce within and between the metropoles forming around their "DropShip cities", even as they continue to stand apart from these places in terms of living arrangements.

-----

In short, rather than follow the same measures taken in the Wolf or Scorpion Empires, or the integrative approach pursued by Clan Ghost Bear in the Rasalhague Dominion, perhaps the Horses could go their own route by doubling down on "Mongol" doctrines in their soon-to-be-expanded domain.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 07 July 2021, 01:27:04
Client states seem very unclan like, of all all the ancillary clans (CSR, CHH, CSJ, CNC) in the sphere they have tried the hardest to remain ‘clan-like’.

Only the weak (or the smart, but we know clans have an allergy to that) can’t conquer a populace themselves.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 07 July 2021, 09:23:17
I think it's more a case of practicality in the face of drastically changed circumstances.

Up to now, most Clan Occupation Zones have had little in the way of internal sub-division. The Rasalhague Dominion stands out not just in terms of its possessing actual provinces, but also in the manner in which it accounts for the worlds of the Vega Protectorate.

But then, up to this point, most of the Clan OZs have been small enough for this not to have been much of an issue. Particularly in the case of Clan Hell's Horses, who have until now had a relatively small OZ which has been isolated from the Inner Sphere at large by surrounding Clan-held territories.

But now that a Clan has actually managed to conquer Terra and proclaim the ilClanship - even if the Horses insist that such a title is subject to a Trial of Refusal, no matter what Alaric is trying to claim - there are serious questions which the Horses are going to have to ask themselves.

How do they leverage the current window of time (before the Fortress walls around the Sol system shut down) and opportunity (with scores of Wolf and Jade Falcon worlds critically undefended) in order to position themselves for a realistic shot at unseating Alaric? If they do manage to seize Terra, how do they avoid the same mistakes which the Wolves and Jade Falcons had made, in terms of leaving themselves exposed to the next faction making a run at humanity's home world? If they don't succeed in defeating Alaric, is there a backup plan in place which would at least allow them to avoid the fate of the Jade Falcons?

And on a broader note, the Horses might now have to work out and articulate what their version of a Clan-led Star League actually looks like, and how they plan on implementing it. Would they accept House Lords or Periphery rulers as member states, subjugate them as Territorial States, break them up into smaller vassal realms, or attempt to rule over their domains directly? If any of the first three options are chosen, would the member/vassal states be entirely disarmed, or would they be permitted to retain some measure of military force? Would such forces be organized using the Clan force organizational model, or would they continue to be raised as Inner Sphere-type units?

Hence my suggestion about setting up vassal states (and militaries) in an expanded Horse domain. This would, in essence, count both as practice for Clan Hell's Horses in terms of running a "Clan-led Star League in miniature", and (if it works) as a template for incorporating other realms into a Horse-led Star League.

Or, consider this: perhaps the current front-line Horse touman would play the role of the "Royal" regiments of the original SLDF; the cream of the subject armed forces could be organized as akin to the "standard" SLDF regiments (albeit using Clan force organization charts); while the rest would be akin to the member state and Territorial State armed forces - but with the Horses taking greater care to limit the size and capability of such forces, lest they pose the kind of threat to "their" Star League which had been posed to the original one.

In fact, depending on what kind of policies Alaric tries to implement even if he somehow manages to keep the Horses, Capellans, and others at bay, an ongoing rivalry - in terms of competing visions for a Clan-led Star League - could make for an interesting dynamic. Consider that the Jochids were confronted by the Ilkhanate and the Yuan Dynasty, both of which led by the Toluid branch of the "golden lineage". Part of the reasoning behind the Jochid alliance with the Mamluks in Egypt was to contain the ongoing Ilkhanid threat, even if it meant siding with non-Mongols against other Mongols.

So, if the Horses want to get serious about staking a claim to the top table of Inner Sphere powers, they are going to have to take seriously the question of what that means going forward. Be it in terms of what kind of expanded realm they themselves are going to be running, and in terms of how their "endgame" of a Horse-dominated Star League is actually supposed to work.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 09 August 2021, 12:49:20
So, based on certain details from both IlClan and The Price of Duty, plus that recently-tweeted teaser image of Tamar Rising (https://twitter.com/catalystgamelab/status/1420538758097633281), the new campaign map might show not one but (at least) two new Lyran breakaway states on Clan Hell's Horses' expanded borders as of 3152: the reconstituted Tamar Pact, as well as the Melissia-based Vesper Marches. Plus at least a handful of as-yet-unclaimed portions of the former Jade Falcon OZ nestled in between.

Also from IlClan, no doubt the Horses would appreciate the audacity of Terra's Mongolian Cavaliers. Perhaps they might make for good QuadVee pilots?

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 09 August 2021, 13:03:23
Nerroth makes a lot of sense both the Wolves and Hells Horses have some growing up to do in order to creste a stable presence in their portion of the Inner Sphere.  Yes the Wolves have a strong military but 90% of their support was left in the OZ and huge groups of dissatisfied people within the OZ.  Not to mention the Falcon OZ where the phrase “Remember Sudeten” may become a rallying cry against all clansmen regardless of position or Clan affiliation. 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 09 August 2021, 13:58:26
Time is the big issue. Not in the way you are thinking.

By the time of IlClan Clan Wolf has been in the Empire for most of a decade and Clan Hell's Horses had been in the Wolf OZ nearly as long. The result being both Clans getting an industrial boost over their 3130 starting positions. Neither are industrial pushovers any more.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 09 August 2021, 14:06:13
Also, it occurred to me that as of 3151, the only Council of Six Clan which remains "sundered" from its Abjured counterpart is Clan Hell's Horses. Assuming that Clan Stone Lion continues to exist as of the IlClan Era, I suppose.

But then, I can't help but feel that the situation involving the Hell's Horses, the Stone Lions, and the Star Adders was not quite as directly confrontational as others caught up in the Wars of Reaving.

Which might make for an interesting dynamic, if or when we ever hear from the Clan Homeworlds again. What if the "long game" was to use the Horse OZ as a Trojan horse for a Homeworld Clan invasion, with a reunion between the Horses and Lions part of the mix? Or, even if there had been the makings of such an agreement at first, might the Horses have gone too far native in their time in the Inner Sphere, and end up opposing such an invasion?

Alternatively, perhaps the Homeworld Clans themselves end up going their separate ways: the Coyotes at least seemed to have one foot out the door at last reporting, for one. What if the Stone Lions - or some surviving remnant of them - show up in the Horse OZ, but as migrants (or refugees) rather than as conquerors?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Generic Clanner 24601 on 09 August 2021, 20:35:47
I could see some sort of refugee thing, but I don't see the Hell's Horses and Stone Lions ever reuniting. The Stone Lions were on their way to becoming a their own Clan with new traditions. The Wolves and Wolves-in-Exiles still saw themselves as Wolves. As much time that has passed, I don't think the Lions still consider themselves Horses and considering the way the Taint ideology has shaped Homeworld culture, my guess is that they do not want to associate with the Horses considering their Taint a stain on their own Clan.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: The Wobbly Guy on 09 August 2021, 20:37:32
Why did Stone mention the homeworld clans to Alaric on his deathbed in the first place? Does he know something the others don't?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 09 August 2021, 20:51:40
One last attempt to troll Alaric before he dies, I figure.  At least, in-character, OOC it feels like a potential teaser for the future.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: DOC_Agren on 10 August 2021, 00:01:39
Why did Stone mention the homeworld clans to Alaric on his deathbed in the first place? Does he know something the others don't?
if he is a WOB puppet like I beleive, maybe he knows more then he should
After all the last big group who didn't at least fake taking Stone Kool Aid was the home clans I can see them wanting to check on them with maybe a Bugeye or something like it
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 10 August 2021, 11:59:34
Total speculation here, but if Seekers made it all the way to Solaris VII, its entirely possible more made contact with Republic agents
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Fletch on 19 August 2021, 04:55:23
Lots of good thoughts and speculation. Good to see the Horses getting some attention.

That said, CHH leadership has been sorely lacking since Cobb and the Horses migration to the IS. Can't see Amirault doing much more than throwing toddler tantrums.

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: rebs on 19 August 2021, 08:38:07
Fletch, you're back!

Yeah, the Horses are doing well, and they don't accept any of this IlClan nonsense. >:D

Good for them! 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 19 August 2021, 18:57:57
Hey Fletch!

While I don't have any news, no news might be good sometimes? Better to see what everyone else is doing.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Fletch on 19 August 2021, 23:03:39
While I don't have any news, no news might be good sometimes? Better to see what everyone else is doing.

Looking forward to see what Tamar Rising delivers.

Fletch, you're back! 

Plenty to read and catch-up on!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: rebs on 19 August 2021, 23:12:24
Absolutely.   If you have questions, just ask.

And here's the new tip, I just heard on fb... read IlClan first, then read Hour of the Wolf. The experience is better because the sourcebook gives you the details we all want, and were not really delivered by the novel.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Fletch on 23 August 2021, 00:48:59
Got through HoTW and IlClan. Now slowly working my way through the IlClan guides.

As I noted in another forum; Terra now smells like wet dog every time it rains
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 25 August 2021, 17:48:41
As any one painted up any delta galaxy units? Any tips
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Fletch on 01 September 2021, 05:53:54
As any one painted up any delta galaxy units? Any tips

Maybe have a chat with Worktroll

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/miniatures/heavy-trinary-65th-mechanised-strike-cluster-delta-galaxy-chh-da/msg1468600/#msg1468600 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/miniatures/heavy-trinary-65th-mechanised-strike-cluster-delta-galaxy-chh-da/msg1468600/#msg1468600)

Also check out the CSO discord?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 06 December 2021, 22:12:23
So, anyone have any thoughts on the Doom Courser?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Deadborder on 07 December 2021, 02:25:30
So, anyone have any thoughts on the Doom Courser?

I hate it.

I am slightly biased in my opinion
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 07 December 2021, 04:34:00
So, anyone have any thoughts on the Doom Courser?
It is the anti-Balius. Where the Balius is all about flitting from bush to bush, the Doom Courser is about going straight up the middle and wearing the hits. Or find a bush, crouch. and stay there like a smaller Thunderstallion.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 07 December 2021, 04:46:37
It also seems like it should be dropping off a Point of LRM Gnomes the turn before entering weapons range.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 07 December 2021, 05:05:16
It is the anti-Balius. Where the Balius is all about flitting from bush to bush, the Doom Courser is about going straight up the middle and wearing the hits. Or find a bush, crouch. and stay there like a smaller Thunderstallion.

It's also the anti-Balius in that every configuration is great. I think it's worth nothing how incredibly rare that is for an OmniMech.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Ruger on 07 December 2021, 13:14:46
It's also the anti-Balius in that every configuration is great. I think it's worth nothing how incredibly rare that is for an OmniMech.

To me, most were over-sinked. Dropping some heat sinks for more weapons or equipment is a viable option for most of them.

Ruger
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 07 December 2021, 14:52:22
With the proliferation of plasma weapons on the modern battlefield, a 4/6 running cool is no bad thing -- movement penalties are lethal for a unit that slow.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 08 December 2021, 21:28:47
Its just kind of..eh. I mean, its a slower Clan Quad with a turret. If you were telling someone about it that didn't know what it was, they'd probably go "Oh, you mean the Thunder Stallion?"

I'm curious to play with it, but I think the result might be "Okay."
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 09 December 2021, 16:57:42
@ Marlwys

So your saying that my 666th just got a new toy?

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 09 December 2021, 19:12:56
I mean, its perfectly fine. Since its an Omni you can use it to transport BA. Since its 4/6 it would probably fit right in with the 666th, and might even be considered fast :)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 09 December 2021, 22:09:22
The slow speed had the crawling Hell's Horses wall in mind.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 09 December 2021, 23:14:38
So :

Procyon (Quad), Proto
Boggart, Proto
Buraq, BA

Quadvees

Quad Mechs

Yeah... a " Horde " of horse-shaped units to play with!

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 11 December 2021, 18:41:34
I know my local opponent would love to field one: he’s not a fan of proxies per se but I can probably give him a couple record sheets and he’ll go nuts with them.

I like the design even if it’s a bit slow for its weight. I only have a problem with the D variant personally. For me it seems really undergunned (even with a massive ammo bin for that HAG)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Negatorxx on 14 December 2021, 11:50:07
All i know is that the Doom Courser is unbelievably visually boring. 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ManicMaestro on 23 December 2021, 13:02:16
Hail equine trothkin,

I am building out a few Hell's Horses TO&Es for a campaign I am running with some friends. Setting would be in the 3050's, so recovering from Niles but before the Great Refusal. They would start in a second line battlemech cluster and (hopefully) fight their way to glory in a front line unit.

Looking for what your thoughts are on reasonable cluster compositions. Turning Points: Tokasha just has every star in every cluster be a nova, but that represents an older TO&E when the Horses were on the rise with their new mech factories.

FM: Crusader clans just says 2/3 of mech stars are novas and there's a mix of mechs and elementals in every trinary. How do you all build a cluster sized force? Do you change it significantly based on type (Mechanized Cav, Strike, Assault, etc.) other than unit weight?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 23 December 2021, 14:42:11
Hail equine trothkin,

I am building out a few Hell's Horses TO&Es for a campaign I am running with some friends. Setting would be in the 3050's, so recovering from Niles but before the Great Refusal. They would start in a second line battlemech cluster and (hopefully) fight their way to glory in a front line unit.

Looking for what your thoughts are on reasonable cluster compositions. Turning Points: Tokasha just has every star in every cluster be a nova, but that represents an older TO&E when the Horses were on the rise with their new mech factories.

FM: Crusader clans just says 2/3 of mech stars are novas and there's a mix of mechs and elementals in every trinary. How do you all build a cluster sized force? Do you change it significantly based on type (Mechanized Cav, Strike, Assault, etc.) other than unit weight?

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Touman

that has some pictures and descriptions of various clusters. 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: rebs on 23 December 2021, 16:10:12
Why isn't the Mechanized Infantry cluster mentioned on Sarna?  Is it not in FM Warden Clans?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 23 December 2021, 23:52:52
Why isn't the Mechanized Infantry cluster mentioned on Sarna?  Is it not in FM Warden Clans?

Mechanized Infantry cluster?

Looking for what your thoughts are on reasonable cluster compositions. Turning Points: Tokasha just has every star in every cluster be a nova, but that represents an older TO&E when the Horses were on the rise with their new mech factories.

FM: Crusader clans just says 2/3 of mech stars are novas and there's a mix of mechs and elementals in every trinary. How do you all build a cluster sized force? Do you change it significantly based on type (Mechanized Cav, Strike, Assault, etc.) other than unit weight?

It really depends on what you want. Since you're looking for a second line cluster you can also do just a generic cluster that allows you to tailor things the way you want. Ratios of BM/BA, weight classes, etc.

You also might want to look at how you'll be deploying things. Are you going to be deploying small Stars with some support? Maybe your mech stars should be more jack of all trades. Or maybe you'll be deploying them in Trinary strength, an so you can make the stars more specialized, since each Star will be supporting each other.

Are you comfortable with Conventional infantry? Are you going to be wanting to use transports for them? Are you going to want to have some variety in them, are just copy paste?

Is aerospace going to matter? Do you want to swap that out? Lots of questions to think about when you're making it.

edit
Added some more questions
/edit
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 25 December 2021, 14:17:28
So how about your new Elementals: very nice?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 25 December 2021, 14:28:19
So how about your new Elementals: very nice?

200 more BV is a massive amount but I think they look good in small numbers. They can be more easily fielded by slow forces or with limited transport, they have good defensive numbers at long range.

I can see them being used instead of HeadHunter points now.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 25 December 2021, 19:47:53
FM: Crusader clans just says 2/3 of mech stars are novas and there's a mix of mechs and elementals in every trinary. How do you all build a cluster sized force? Do you change it significantly based on type (Mechanized Cav, Strike, Assault, etc.) other than unit weight?

Let's break this down...

Average " Cluster " consists of four to five Binary / Trinary, some happen to be Nova style.

Each Star is made up of up to five points, yes that means the abstracted unit rules can be used here, pg. 329 SO

How much munch spam can you handle before your choked by your friends in a game?

All jokes aside, one can use any combination to create a cluster of your choice, with Faction fluff.

My example is this:

If we assume a standard straight Cluster, we could have a weird unit.

Average Trinary is 15 Mechs, but you can look at it this way, Command Star with a support Binary. They can both be made into a Nova style without being too complicated. A Star fights as one, so do Binaries and Trinaries, but breaking up the larger units make their cohesion faulty. ( That's a fluff thing mostly... we Horses can make a hell out of ourselves by running larger units as one. )

Also, in an average Cluster, you'd get another Trinary of Aero, that's 30 ASF.

Given the fact that "  2/3 of mech stars are novas and there's a mix of mechs and elementals in every trinary " is true.

We can assume the following as well :

45 Mechwarriors
30 Aerojocks
75 Elementals

150 total for a " classic " cluster.

Now add in Support, we Horses use another Trinary of Tanks and maybe another of Infantry, non-BA.

That gives us 4 full Trinaries to run with... but again, how much munch spam can you handle before your choked by your friends in a game?

If I was to use this, I'd be asked to explain why. I mean, it's not all Dire Wolf Widowmakers ( All three configs. ) and Toads with Mars XL / Kokou XL and Fast Recon Infantry with my Aero being all Xerxes / Xerxes 2.

I'd rather have :

Command Nova, Binary Nova
Command Mech, Binary Mech
Binary Mech
Binary Tank Nova ( PBI )
Binary Aero

But then we have Protos... where would you place them? Fluff wise, it should be for a Mech unit, so maybe the Binary Mech? I'd run Mech and Proto Binary.

Also did you knew that running the above using Abstract is fun?

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 26 December 2021, 14:27:39
So how about your new Elementals: very nice?

I love them, but I'm biased.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 26 December 2021, 16:41:31
I love them, but I'm biased.

How so? Did you create them?

Also in response to TT: what about the QuadVee’s!!!!?  ;D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 26 December 2021, 16:58:56
Those would be maximum of a Star for the entire cluster, no more...

Or replace the Tank Binary entirely...

If you want to include those :

Exercise Cluster:

Command Nova, Binary Nova
Command Mech, Binary Mech / Proto
Command Tank Nova ( PBI ), Binary QuadVee
Binary Aero

Just a thought exercise..,

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 14 January 2022, 19:23:53
From the Tamar Rising preview (https://bg.battletech.com/news/tamar-rising-preview-once-upon-a-time/) linked to elsewhere on the boards:

(https://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Tamar-Rising_prev_2.jpg)

This would be Delta Galaxy being portrayed here, quiaff?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Gaiiten on 15 January 2022, 11:41:18
Very nice. The Mech is a Grendel, is not it?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 15 January 2022, 14:42:26
Very nice. The Mech is a Grendel, is not it?

That was my thought too.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 15 January 2022, 15:01:05
That was my thought too.

With a beam weapon in the head, two in the left arm, and four missile ports on the right torso, I think it’s a Mongrel (Grendel) H.  The Prime, J, and T also have beam weapons in those locations but sport SRM-6s in the right torso, not SRM-4s.

Definitely Delta Galaxy insignia.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 20 January 2022, 04:10:22
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/clan-chatterweb/the-ilclan-and-the-mandate-of-kerensky/msg1727608/#msg1727608

Called it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Mendrugo on 21 January 2022, 11:44:13
So…

What xenofauna steeds does your Trinary collect?  Boomers?  Riding Beetles? Megasaurs?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Deadborder on 21 January 2022, 20:57:46
Coventry Kangaroos all the way
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Mendrugo on 21 January 2022, 21:01:05
Coventry Kangaroos all the way

You'll note in the Legends book, cadet Bel Carlyle and her Scooby gang break up a kangaroo smuggling operation on Coventry.  Now we know that the Malthus Free Guilds were coordinating the smuggling, and that the Hell's Horses were the customers.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Foxx Ital on 21 January 2022, 23:27:53
So…

What xenofauna steeds does your Trinary collect?  Boomers?  Riding Beetles? Megasaurs?

 That was a real,"but caaaarrrrlll" moment.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: rebs on 22 January 2022, 20:43:42
Fulk Lassenerra = Malvina Junior?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Mendrugo on 22 January 2022, 20:50:07
Definitely not.  He backed her during the Golden Ordun, but pulled out when she indulged in mass murder and WMDs, going so far as to launch Operation Noyan as a Trial of Possession to reclaim the mongol doctrine.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: rebs on 22 January 2022, 20:52:03
Fair enough.  Thanks for your insight, Mendrugo. 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 22 January 2022, 21:26:24
Definitely not.  He backed her during the Golden Ordun, but pulled out when she indulged in mass murder and WMDs, going so far as to launch Operation Noyan as a Trial of Possession to reclaim the mongol doctrine.

Didn’t he also get frustrated and go back to it almost immediately?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Mendrugo on 22 January 2022, 21:39:24
He definitely wanted to be far more aggressive than Amirault, but he doesn’t condone Malvina’s terror tactics or attacks on civilians.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Crimson Dynamo on 23 January 2022, 08:41:04
Not envying the new strategic picture for CHH now. Most especially not the army of pirates, mercenaries, and Black Dragon remnants that will most certainly dive into the HHOZ the moment the Touman tries to square up with Alaric. The slumbering Bears next door is one thing, but Abdoun Ricol is actively trying to pick-off Horses vassals and raid their holdings with the Touman still "around."
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 23 January 2022, 10:44:01
He definitely wanted to be far more aggressive than Amirault, but he doesn’t condone Malvina’s terror tactics or attacks on civilians.

Unless pushed. The write up of the First Horde Cluster states that with the blessing of saKhan Lassenerra they reverted back to Malvina-like tactics during the fighting on Sudeten.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 23 January 2022, 15:12:30
One thing I wonder about Star Captain Peter Cobb: the sidebar in Tamar Rising suggests that he's not entirely sold on the idea that opposing Clan Wolf's claim to be ilClan is in the best interest of the Hell's Horses. If he were to take the Loremaster's advice and make a bid for saKhan - or, perhaps, even one day replace Fulk Lassenerra as Khan - might that lead to a change in policy as regards Alaric and his efforts to establish a new Star League?

But then, that need not necessarily mean the Horses would have to lose all that much in the exchange. To revisit a topic from earlier in this thread, perhaps they could consider the place of the Jochid Golden Horde in the mdist of the otherwise Toluid-dominated Mongol commonwealth as an example of how to position themselves relative to ilClan Wolf.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 23 January 2022, 16:51:48
One thing I wonder about Star Captain Peter Cobb: the sidebar in Tamar Rising suggests that he's not entirely sold on the idea that opposing Clan Wolf's claim to be ilClan is in the best interest of the Hell's Horses. If he were to take the Loremaster's advice and make a bid for saKhan - or, perhaps, even one day replace Fulk Lassenerra as Khan - might that lead to a change in policy as regards Alaric and his efforts to establish a new Star League?

But then, that need not necessarily mean the Horses would have to lose all that much in the exchange. To revisit a topic from earlier in this thread, perhaps they could consider the place of the Jochid Golden Horde in the mdist of the otherwise Toluid-dominated Mongol commonwealth as an example of how to position themselves relative to ilClan Wolf.


If he does take over, would Alaric forgive the insult? He’s already on edge with what Stone told him. He might have already made up his mind about showing a Clan what happens when they defy him.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 23 January 2022, 18:20:00

If he does take over, would Alaric forgive the insult? He’s already on edge with what Stone told him. He might have already made up his mind about showing a Clan what happens when they defy him.

If anything, I think the opposite might be the case. Alaric was more or less goading the Horse Khans into opposing him on Terra, as part of his goal to give his new Star League enough opposition to make things interesting. Perhaps, after his chat later that day with Devlin Stone, he might realize that the Inner Sphere is a dangerous enough place without him adding to his list of would-be enemies; in which case, perhaps cutting a deal with the Horses might not seem like such a bad idea after all...

To be clear, I'm not saying that, even under new management, the Horses necessarily should seek a rapprochement with the Wolves. Merely that, if it was deemed to be in their best interest to do so, perhaps Alaric might not reject such an offer out of hand.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Crimson Dynamo on 30 January 2022, 16:19:27
Here's one for you guys. I notice in FM3145 the ordering of the Horde Clusters from 1-11 skips both the 6th and the 7th. Any idea why? Were there ever a 6th or 7th Horde Clusters? Sarna has nothing on either.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 31 January 2022, 13:09:49
The sixty years between FMs 3085 and 3145 is a long time, and there certainly could have been a Sixth and/or Seventh Horde Cluster that was destroyed or merged into another unit at some point in there.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 31 January 2022, 19:09:23
Well first, they had a better breeding program, which meant pre-elementals. IE: Stronger, faster and more endurance than freebirth... So Skill 5...

Then Skill 4 as a typical grunt sibko graduate noob...

Skill 3 average today, everyone else a 4-ish...

But Space Marine Elemental should be 4... they don't fight as often as their grounded cousins...

If in a Watch or SpecOps, then they should be a +1 skill to reflect cream of the crop, Skill 2 / 3-Space... but that's kinda rare...

TT

Are the horses elementals the equal of raven space marines?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 01 February 2022, 00:52:59
Umm...

Maybe?

After all, as I stated before, the Horses had pre-elementals before they became that.

Stronger, faster better breeding protocols, until the event of the Battle Armor, which was quickly became the standard Infantry for all clans. But one must remember that the Elemental that fails his or her training is automatically placed into a dumping ground called Infantry, Foot Point. Whereas they are now totally at the mercy of their former comrades in the BA program. Especially if they failed their ToP.

Strong Freebirths that, either have a parental that has Elemental genes or just physically strong enough to take the test, are usually in these types of Conventional Infantry, rarely do they have what is needed to get into the BA program.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Crimson Dynamo on 01 February 2022, 07:59:44
The sixty years between FMs 3085 and 3145 is a long time, and there certainly could have been a Sixth and/or Seventh Horde Cluster that was destroyed or merged into another unit at some point in there.

True/fair enough. I was curious if there was some reference of their demise known to the greater community.

Follow-up question for all, are the Horses big on resurrecting fallen units or no?

Are the horses elementals the equal of raven space marines?

Hell's Horses Elementals race each other on the backs of dinosaurs, for fun. That makes them superior to any other infantry in all of human space.  ;D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 01 February 2022, 16:41:44
True/fair enough. I was curious if there was some reference of their demise known to the greater community.

Follow-up question for all, are the Horses big on resurrecting fallen units or no?

Hell's Horses Elementals race each other on the backs of dinosaurs, for fun. That makes them superior to any other infantry in all of human space.  ;D


Tell me more about these Dino’s!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: GuyIncognito on 01 February 2022, 16:55:34
It could be that the 6th and 7th Horde Clusters were commanded by the forgotten Primarchs, stricken from the Great Remembrance.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: MDFification on 01 February 2022, 19:22:16
Not envying the new strategic picture for CHH now. Most especially not the army of pirates, mercenaries, and Black Dragon remnants that will most certainly dive into the HHOZ the moment the Touman tries to square up with Alaric. The slumbering Bears next door is one thing, but Abdoun Ricol is actively trying to pick-off Horses vassals and raid their holdings with the Touman still "around."

Yeah, pulling out of the Periphery and letting a new Oberon Confederation rise from the ashes really backfired on the Horses hard, didn't it? Even if Ricol wasn't raiding dangerously close to their capitol, they've got hostile states forming in the Hinterlands. To top it all off the Bears have woke up and are testing the Tamar Pact, which means their route to Terra might be cut off entirely.

Hopefully the new Khan's smart enough to read the writing on the wall; the Horses ain't driving to Terra and overthrowing Alaric any time soon. Not unless it's something Ghost Bear wants to see happen, in which case it isn't going to be them that's the new Ilkhan. At this point, it'd be better to give up on Terra and focus on securing their own backyard.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Crimson Dynamo on 01 February 2022, 20:12:22
Tell me more about these Dino’s!

One of the most enjoyable bits in Tamar Rising is the fierce sense of competition among CHH Warriors, which frequently manifests in races, with great pride taken in the thought that if something has legs, a Hell's Horseman can ride and master it. It further mentions a one-time very healthy black market to supply all sorts of riding animals, from standard horse breeds to exotic riding beetles and dinosaur-sounding things. This black market was curtailed after an incident where two Elementals were thrown and killed while riding on the backs of dinosaur-things which then proceeded to have a big Kaiju battle afterwards between themselves and with other megafauna in the race. 

It could be that the 6th and 7th Horde Clusters were commanded by the forgotten Primarchs, stricken from the Great Remembrance.

Horsemen of the Lost Legions, eh? Not a bad unit name...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 02 February 2022, 01:02:04
Follow-up question for all, are the Horses big on resurrecting fallen units or no?

Sadly, no, not really. If anything, quite the opposite.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 02 February 2022, 01:45:21
To clarify, by "opposite" I mean creating new units out of whole cloth.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Negatorxx on 02 February 2022, 20:07:38
Yeah, pulling out of the Periphery and letting a new Oberon Confederation rise from the ashes really backfired on the Horses hard, didn't it? Even if Ricol wasn't raiding dangerously close to their capitol, they've got hostile states forming in the Hinterlands. To top it all off the Bears have woke up and are testing the Tamar Pact, which means their route to Terra might be cut off entirely.

Hopefully the new Khan's smart enough to read the writing on the wall; the Horses ain't driving to Terra and overthrowing Alaric any time soon. Not unless it's something Ghost Bear wants to see happen, in which case it isn't going to be them that's the new Ilkhan. At this point, it'd be better to give up on Terra and focus on securing their own backyard.


Just a setup to piss off teh Horses enough for them to allow their territory to be the launch pad of the Home World Clans invasion of the IS....
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 03 February 2022, 02:35:31
It's very likely the Horses will still join ilClan Wolf and be the ones to pacify the Lyran sector. There's the more rational Peter Cobb and they are still the major power to pick off the various micro-states.

Alaric will need every Clan to pacify the entire IS and make the Third League a reality before 3250.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 03 February 2022, 08:49:20
It's very likely the Horses will still join ilClan Wolf and be the ones to pacify the Lyran sector. There's the more rational Peter Cobb and they are still the major power to pick off the various micro-states.

Alaric will need every Clan to pacify the entire IS and make the Third League a reality before 3250.

If Alaric was not arrogant it could have happened after Hour of the Wolf where he basically said “bite me” to the Hells Horses the Lyran State will be chaotic at best.  Read Tamar Rising there is a lot going on in that neck of the woods.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 03 February 2022, 23:59:15
Essentially, Tamar Rising is an excuse to set up these microstates and weaken the Horses either for Alaric's eventual conquest of this sector or a resurgent Wolf-aligned Horse to stampede everything there.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Negatorxx on 05 February 2022, 20:17:38
Essentially, Tamar Rising is an excuse to set up these microstates and weaken the Horses either for Alaric's eventual conquest of this sector or a resurgent Wolf-aligned Horse to stampede everything there.

Not if the horses are arbitrarily stupid, as the writing so far implies
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 05 February 2022, 21:34:25
Not if the horses are arbitrarily stupid, as the writing so far implies

They made one tactical error and now with the Red Hunter face a multiple front war. I also believe we are seeing that the Horses are facing potential issues since they lack the ability to replace their losses quickly especially assault mechs.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: JAMES_PRYDE on 05 February 2022, 23:05:35
They made one tactical error and now with the Red Hunter face a multiple front war. I also believe we are seeing that the Horses are facing potential issues since they lack the ability to replace their losses quickly especially assault mechs.

That's always good ;D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 06 February 2022, 01:01:29
They made one tactical error and now with the Red Hunter face a multiple front war. I also believe we are seeing that the Horses are facing potential issues since they lack the ability to replace their losses quickly especially assault mechs.

Csesztreg Alpha builds Cygnus and Hellstars. They have a Gargoyle factory. RecGuides has them building Dire Wolves.

That is just assault Mechs. CHH is not industrially weak.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 06 February 2022, 02:57:50
Not if the horses are arbitrarily stupid, as the writing so far implies

True. They have been arbitrarily stupid as the plot demands. Those micro states should never exist in the first place.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: nova_dew on 06 February 2022, 08:43:22
True. They have been arbitrarily stupid as the plot demands. Those micro states should never exist in the first place.

The micro states should exist, what shouldn't exist is the Great houses of the Landstradd i mean the inner sphere, too much territory with too much travel time and next to no communication network other than basically word of mouth that can take months, honestly there should have been armies going of at random as orders get ignored, rewritten (by both friend and foe, "lost", it should be a constantly shifting alliance of micro states, ala FWL on an average day, playing lip service to the House that thinks it's incharge, while doing deals out the back door and "losing" the rent money they owe to fund their own militaries. Tamar Rising could set the stage for a less "roll over and submit" inner sphere where people are people and have their own plans and want to do their own things, from Great house ruler to local planetary leader doing it for themselves.   
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: MDFification on 06 February 2022, 09:17:19
True. They have been arbitrarily stupid as the plot demands. Those micro states should never exist in the first place.

Disagree. With the HPG network down, every centralized government in the Sphere should have massively decentralized or balkanized. We should have gone back to Age of War style governments, or if house lords refused to adapt, their realms should have split up. Heck, splitting up should have been the most probable option, because we're told time and time again that nobody has the JumpShips to run the old Age of War style lines of communication. The Horses pulling out of the Barrens and the state of the Hinterlands is weirdly the only place in Battletech where the lack of HPGs has been used appropriately, imo.

On the horses being arbitrarily daft... pretty sure it was just that one Khan, being the same level of daft for his entire career. One wonders why the Horses kept him so long.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: rebs on 06 February 2022, 09:30:15
Disagree. With the HPG network down, every centralized government in the Sphere should have massively decentralized or balkanized. We should have gone back to Age of War style governments, or if house lords refused to adapt, their realms should have split up. Heck, splitting up should have been the most probable option, because we're told time and time again that nobody has the JumpShips to run the old Age of War style lines of communication. The Horses pulling out of the Barrens and the state of the Hinterlands is weirdly the only place in Battletech where the lack of HPGs has been used appropriately, imo.

On the horses being arbitrarily daft... pretty sure it was just that one Khan, being the same level of daft for his entire career. One wonders why the Horses kept him so long.

The problem here is that you are taking All of Canon into count. 

Some users prefer the selective, cherry-picking approach.   ;)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 06 February 2022, 09:49:42
Csesztreg Alpha builds Cygnus and Hellstars. They have a Gargoyle factory. RecGuides has them building Dire Wolves.

That is just assault Mechs. CHH is not industrially weak.

One reason the Mongol Doctrine was established due to the lack of assault mechs ad vehicles not absences.  The FWL had a similar issue in 3039.  The fact that the Hells Horses created Ranger Clusters which do not possess any assaults and according to Tamar Rising not all of them embraced the Mongol Doctrine tells me it was a need.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 06 February 2022, 14:24:33
Field Manual 3145, p151.

Quote
Military resources have been another matter. The loss of New Oslo to the Rasalhague Dominion wiped out two-thirds of the Horses’ ’Mech production capacity, leaving them with only the assault ’Mech and QuadVee lines on Csesztreg. While still able to import lighter ’Mechs, this has had two effects on the Clan’s touman.

Firstly, average ’Mech weight has increased, and secondly, the already vehicle-heavy Clan has increasingly turned to conventional arms for supporting units, while also looking into radical alternatives like the QuadVee. Along with the work of the 666th Mechanized Assault Cluster, this led to the Hell’s Horses’ interpretation of the Mongol doctrine, using large numbers of light forces to sweep an enemy onto a heavy ’Mech anvil.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 06 February 2022, 17:30:56
Thankfully, they just got New Oslo back, so hopefully we can start to see some of those chassis return to the touman.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 07 February 2022, 05:07:55
The micro states should exist, what shouldn't exist is the Great houses of the Landstradd i mean the inner sphere, too much territory with too much travel time and next to no communication network other than basically word of mouth that can take months, honestly there should have been armies going of at random as orders get ignored, rewritten (by both friend and foe, "lost", it should be a constantly shifting alliance of micro states, ala FWL on an average day, playing lip service to the House that thinks it's incharge, while doing deals out the back door and "losing" the rent money they owe to fund their own militaries. Tamar Rising could set the stage for a less "roll over and submit" inner sphere where people are people and have their own plans and want to do their own things, from Great house ruler to local planetary leader doing it for themselves.

Disagree. With the HPG network down, every centralized government in the Sphere should have massively decentralized or balkanized. We should have gone back to Age of War style governments, or if house lords refused to adapt, their realms should have split up. Heck, splitting up should have been the most probable option, because we're told time and time again that nobody has the JumpShips to run the old Age of War style lines of communication. The Horses pulling out of the Barrens and the state of the Hinterlands is weirdly the only place in Battletech where the lack of HPGs has been used appropriately, imo.

On the horses being arbitrarily daft... pretty sure it was just that one Khan, being the same level of daft for his entire career. One wonders why the Horses kept him so long.

The only things in favour of their continued survival is the inaction of the Bears and the Horses being dumb. Otherwise their tiny forces would be wiped out by the major factions with resources of far greater magnitude. The Blackout wasn't an issue for the aggressor factions of the Dark Age anyway (Dracs, Liao, Wolves, Falcons, neoFWL etc)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: nova_dew on 07 February 2022, 07:29:13
The only things in favour of their continued survival is the inaction of the Bears and the Horses being dumb. Otherwise their tiny forces would be wiped out by the major factions with resources of far greater magnitude. The Blackout wasn't an issue for the aggressor factions of the Dark Age anyway (Dracs, Liao, Wolves, Falcons, neoFWL etc)

The horses were horsing around and the bears were preparing to invade terra, they were busy, the bears are now doing something that way on per Tamar rising. Though no idea what since it's the first time it was mentioned.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: rebs on 07 February 2022, 08:11:38
The Horses' Touman is spread too thin over too many planets as it is.  Too little butter on too much bread.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 07 February 2022, 08:15:02
The only things in favour of their continued survival is the inaction of the Bears and the Horses being dumb. Otherwise their tiny forces would be wiped out by the major factions with resources of far greater magnitude. The Blackout wasn't an issue for the aggressor factions of the Dark Age anyway (Dracs, Liao, Wolves, Falcons, neoFWL etc)

They’re also near the periphery border and before the Clan Invasion an area of little action.  Yes they will be swallowed up by a larger faction but my hope is the writers will let some of them retain their identity like the Arkab Legion in the DC or the Capellan March in the FedSuns.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 07 February 2022, 08:56:48
The horses were horsing around and the bears were preparing to invade terra, they were busy, the bears are now doing something that way on per Tamar rising. Though no idea what since it's the first time it was mentioned.

The Bears are more likely to partition the Combine with the Ravens and perhaps another Clan coming out of Terra.

They’re also near the periphery border and before the Clan Invasion an area of little action.  Yes they will be swallowed up by a larger faction but my hope is the writers will let some of them retain their identity like the Arkab Legion in the DC or the Capellan March in the FedSuns.

True. The Tamar Rising area is comparatively seeing little action since the Falcons went to Terra. The question is who will pacify that area: Lyrans, Horses, another Clan force from Terra or the Coreward Deep Periphery
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: nova_dew on 07 February 2022, 10:11:06
The Bears are more likely to partition the Combine with the Ravens and perhaps another Clan coming out of Terra.

True. The Tamar Rising area is comparatively seeing little action since the Falcons went to Terra. The question is who will pacify that area: Lyrans, Horses, another Clan force from Terra or the Coreward Deep Periphery

We don't know what's going to happen with the Combine, the Coordinator has plans in place to mobilize and arm everyone on every planet on the Bear's border, the Gunji-no-Kanrei may or may not have plans to use those plans offensively, (apparently he's not too bright), there's also been snippets in the Rec-guides about Dominion activity on Combine worlds prior to the Bears invading that the Combine and Dominion are both saying officially didn't happen (Rime Otter and Horned Owl write ups, iirc), we also don't know what the Bears are going to do about Alaric and his plans, or what the Ravens are going to do, they've both officially bent the knee to him, but the Bears didn't do so without question and the Wolf watch is cautious about what the Bears may or may not know about some things, Ravens we've gotten next to nothing on that I know about.

What i think might happen is the birth of a new faction as the various Falcon and independent mini states put aside differences and join in a coalition, much like how the IS states did in the start and they have a lot of reason too, Horses, Bears, LC, ilClan, they might be sitting there looking about and thinking "we're more alike than not, maybe we sort out who's most incharge later, I have the man power, you have the money, and you have the production, lets work together to stay alive at least for now"
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Orwell84 on 07 February 2022, 15:11:47
Been listening to the AMA and just thought I'd mention some good news for Horses fans (if it hasn't been said here already). There's a full novel in the works. Part of it at least is set during Tamar Rising, and if I didn't mishear it may go beyond that.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Nerroth on 07 February 2022, 15:26:48
As I mentioned over in the Tamar Rising thread, I'm hoping that it includes QuadVees and ProtoMechs, as well as providing a good sense of how the Horses incorporate both unit types into their combined-arms doctrines - Mongol or otherwise.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 07 February 2022, 21:51:12
The Gargoyle entry in the Rec Guides has some very brief mentions of possibilities
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 08 February 2022, 03:45:50
We don't know what's going to happen with the Combine, the Coordinator has plans in place to mobilize and arm everyone on every planet on the Bear's border, the Gunji-no-Kanrei may or may not have plans to use those plans offensively, (apparently he's not too bright), there's also been snippets in the Rec-guides about Dominion activity on Combine worlds prior to the Bears invading that the Combine and Dominion are both saying officially didn't happen (Rime Otter and Horned Owl write ups, iirc), we also don't know what the Bears are going to do about Alaric and his plans, or what the Ravens are going to do, they've both officially bent the knee to him, but the Bears didn't do so without question and the Wolf watch is cautious about what the Bears may or may not know about some things, Ravens we've gotten next to nothing on that I know about.

What i think might happen is the birth of a new faction as the various Falcon and independent mini states put aside differences and join in a coalition, much like how the IS states did in the start and they have a lot of reason too, Horses, Bears, LC, ilClan, they might be sitting there looking about and thinking "we're more alike than not, maybe we sort out who's most incharge later, I have the man power, you have the money, and you have the production, lets work together to stay alive at least for now"

Even though there are a lot of uncertainties about all the factions, the fact remains that an ilClan rules the 3rd Star League by 3250. Through might or diplomacy, every IS faction would have to submit to or join this League so it stands to reason that each region will have to be pacified by an ilClan-aligned force. The Dracs and Liao are completely incompatible with a Clan-ruled SL, while the neoFWL invades the Wolves, so all three would have to be cut down to size, one way or another. The Tamar area microstates would have to make drastic decisions regarding their future too.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: nova_dew on 08 February 2022, 05:44:48
Even though there are a lot of uncertainties about all the factions, the fact remains that an ilClan rules the 3rd Star League by 3250. Through might or diplomacy, every IS faction would have to submit to or join this League so it stands to reason that each region will have to be pacified by an ilClan-aligned force. The Dracs and Liao are completely incompatible with a Clan-ruled SL, while the neoFWL invades the Wolves, so all three would have to be cut down to size, one way or another. The Tamar area microstates would have to make drastic decisions regarding their future too.

I disagree, the 3rd Star League just has to call itself the 3rd Star League to exist, since in 3151 Alaric announced the 3rd star league with at best just the Clans, at worst with just 3 clans and so far no inner sphere powers involved at all, they don't have to control squat in reality, just in their minds to call themselves anything, for all we know the League in 3250 is just Terra in a lock down and what we know is in universe propaganda.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Negatorxx on 08 February 2022, 19:45:09
Disagree. With the HPG network down, every centralized government in the Sphere should have massively decentralized or balkanized. We should have gone back to Age of War style governments, or if house lords refused to adapt, their realms should have split up. Heck, splitting up should have been the most probable option, because we're told time and time again that nobody has the JumpShips to run the old Age of War style lines of communication. The Horses pulling out of the Barrens and the state of the Hinterlands is weirdly the only place in Battletech where the lack of HPGs has been used appropriately, imo.

On the horses being arbitrarily daft... pretty sure it was just that one Khan, being the same level of daft for his entire career. One wonders why the Horses kept him so long.

The horses had a huge amount of jumpships, and ran a ..... "pony express".... throughout their territory.  If anything, they should be the faction most able to act decisively  on a large scale.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 08 February 2022, 20:26:48
STAMPEDE had the Horses' JumpShips running on wire and gaffer tape. More pertinently the Horses don't have an unusually large number of JumpShips. Everyone is running a pony express or command circuit of some kind. It is the branch lines that kill you.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Mendrugo on 08 February 2022, 20:47:49
It wasn’t just STAMPEDE that drained the JumpShip reserves - there were two other factors:

1) Parties as yet unknown were sabotaging the Horses’ JumpShips.
2) they had to hold back ships to transport the reserve Galaxies in case the Bears moved across the border.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 09 February 2022, 04:18:37
I disagree, the 3rd Star League just has to call itself the 3rd Star League to exist, since in 3151 Alaric announced the 3rd star league with at best just the Clans, at worst with just 3 clans and so far no inner sphere powers involved at all, they don't have to control squat in reality, just in their minds to call themselves anything, for all we know the League in 3250 is just Terra in a lock down and what we know is in universe propaganda.

By that time Solaris had become an international place for settling feuds between major factions, so yeah, the era of the ilClan is inevitable.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 09 February 2022, 05:15:20
It wasn’t just STAMPEDE that drained the JumpShip reserves - there were two other factors:

1) Parties as yet unknown were sabotaging the Horses’ JumpShips.
2) they had to hold back ships to transport the reserve Galaxies in case the Bears moved across the border.

Where was the sabotage mentioned?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Mendrugo on 09 February 2022, 05:30:36
IlClan p. 115.  Not resolved in Tamar Rising.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 09 February 2022, 10:10:52
Not to mention the various raiding parties in Tamar Rising doesn’t help your pony express circuit when you keep having to divert units to go fight those raids.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 09 February 2022, 12:29:12
IlClan p. 115.  Not resolved in Tamar Rising.

My bet? Agents of Abdoun Ricol.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Negatorxx on 18 February 2022, 10:18:02
Can anyone point me to Protomech specific lore/stories/etc?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Mendrugo on 18 February 2022, 10:54:00
Can anyone point me to Protomech specific lore/stories/etc?

Stories
Tears of Blood (BattleCorps)
Rehab (BattleCorps & Kill Zone Anthology)
Hit Fast, Hit Hard (BattleCorps)
Operation Red Lion (BattleCorps)
Operation Blue Tiger (BattleCorps)
Operation Ice Storm Part 1 - The Frost Awakens (BattleCorps and stand-alone BlitzKrieg novella)
Chiaroscuro (Total Warfare)
Earthbound (Legacy Anthology)

BattleCorps Scenarios
Under Pressure
River of Blood
Savage World
'Mechs from Heaven

Novels
A Bonfire of Worlds (Horses vs. Falcons on Romulus)
Sword and Fire

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Negatorxx on 18 February 2022, 18:13:25
wow, diddnt know there was so many!  got some things to buy then...

..turns out those are really hard to track down. 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 05 April 2022, 16:14:27
Hey everyone, been away for a while. From what I am reading here skimming the thread things are looking bad for our favorite four-legged friends. I don't have Tamar Rising yet and I came out of the ilClan novel a bit concerned for the Horses. Can someone give me a too long, didn't read update on what is going on with the Horses?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 05 April 2022, 19:23:02
Besides becoming TPTB's official whipping clan?

Nothing.

We became part of a Council with little say, Bears are still the rival, Wolves and Falcons are snapping at everything around them while the Ravens are having a hay day with their new neighbors, the Scorpion Empire, which by the by, are so out there it's pathetic. They've contained their Empire so far, but it's just a waiting game really. Do they fail or survive enough to stay a Clan?

But for us, we've been busy expanding our little realm nicely. Everyone is watching everyone, but so far no new threats, just old ones that won't die.

TT

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 05 April 2022, 20:26:40
Besides becoming TPTB's official whipping clan?

Nothing.

We became part of a Council with little say, Bears are still the rival, Wolves and Falcons are snapping at everything around them while the Ravens are having a hay day with their new neighbors, the Scorpion Empire, which by the by, are so out there it's pathetic. They've contained their Empire so far, but it's just a waiting game really. Do they fail or survive enough to stay a Clan?

But for us, we've been busy expanding our little realm nicely. Everyone is watching everyone, but so far no new threats, just old ones that won't die.

TT

cough *Red Duke*. But I would read the Tamar Rising because it shows that the Hell
Horses are at a crossroads with challenges on every front.  Especially cleaning up the messes created by the Falcons and Pirates.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 06 April 2022, 03:13:48
I just picked up Tamar Rising. Can't wait to read it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Drewbacca on 06 April 2022, 04:44:00
I do have to say, my Scorpion side is happy with the way that is the developing. If the Horses can get a relatively stable area I would be happy.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 06 April 2022, 18:05:04
Personally, I think things are actually looking up for the Horses. Sure, they lost at Sudeten, but they picked up Erewhon, they have a nice buffet of a buffer between them and the Lyrans/ilWolves, and they lost their dumbass Khan and replaced him with one who seems to suck less (I mean, he's no James Cobb but who could be?).
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 06 April 2022, 19:19:04
What the Horses took in the Wolf OZ is where the growth potential is right now as production is coming back online.

There was an effort after the Jihad to make sure all the IS Clans were reasonably self sufficient. The Horses now have the "sufficiency" of two and a half Clans. If they aren't pruned in the short term they will pose the same problem as the Dominion. A tertiary faction that can quickly grow to an unmanageable size when nobody is paying attention.

The Horses have real potential at the moment. We are yet to see how it will be used.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 07 April 2022, 00:11:07
I do hope we get to see them really flourish and not just get utterly smacked down by the ilWolves or Bears. I know I'm super biased, but the Horses are a great Clan, dammit! They bring a flavor to the Clans that I think is valuable in both the in-universe and game-meta sense, and it would be a shame to see them essentially shunted offscreen for the remainder of the 3150s.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 28 June 2022, 11:17:15
I do hope we get to see them really flourish and not just get utterly smacked down by the ilWolves or Bears. I know I'm super biased, but the Horses are a great Clan, dammit! They bring a flavor to the Clans that I think is valuable in both the in-universe and game-meta sense, and it would be a shame to see them essentially shunted offscreen for the remainder of the 3150s.

For Watsonian reasons, I’m confident Horses don’t get wiped by the usurperer and his Wolves. It’s been mentioned that the new states created are supposed to stick around a while and I don’t see how Wolves project force at the Horses without going through Tamar Pact and basically destroying it. I’m not sold that the Bears are interested in listening to Alaric unless Alaric asks them to do what they already wanted, so I don’t think Bears are wanting a full on war.

But horses just increased their territory by 50%, picked up a few key worlds like Erehwon, and while they do face threats from most directions the AML and Vesper are in no real position to attack the Horses. It’s basically Fallen Falcons, Bears, and whatever is up in Oberon.

My only worry is that the new Khan does something extremely stupid. Some pointless aggression that causes a backlash
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Angrii on 28 June 2022, 12:02:42
My only worry is that the new Khan does something extremely stupid. Some pointless aggression that causes a backlash

Given his antics in Tamar Rising, that seems all too possible.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 28 June 2022, 13:40:08
If the Horses simply decide to keep what they have it should be fine. I doubt the Falcon worlds can do much. Both have one big factory world but that is it. Of course if they merge that would be another story. And I think the Bears will most likely be more concerned with the Combine then with the rather neutral Horses (except perhaps for minor trials)

Then again maybe someone decides to invade Terra and Alaric conveniently forgets to deactivate the Wall.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: GuyIncognito on 28 June 2022, 13:54:52
I wanna see people's Doom Courser Stars and Novas.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 03 July 2022, 12:20:09
I for one also root for seeing new mechs from the RecGuides in lore. And absolutely a Doom Courser
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: WONC on 26 September 2022, 01:41:57
So, I have a few questions for you Horsefolk, as my knowledge of your Clan is not as deep as I would want it to be.

I know that front line forces mix Omnis and battle armor in trinaries / novas with a liberal glee, but what about second line clusters? I know Omnis will show up a bit in all but the most destitute of garrison units, but are pure binaries and trinaries more the norm (aside from vee / infantry supernovas, of course)?

Also, when books mention "generic clusters," are those units ones that follow standard Clan practices, rather than Horse-specific, er, horse-ery?

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: JAMES_PRYDE on 26 September 2022, 23:21:09
So, I have a few questions for you Horsefolk, as my knowledge of your Clan is not as deep as I would want it to be.

I know that front line forces mix Omnis and battle armor in trinaries / novas with a liberal glee, but what about second line clusters? I know Omnis will show up a bit in all but the most destitute of garrison units, but are pure binaries and trinaries more the norm (aside from vee / infantry supernovas, of course)?

Also, when books mention "generic clusters," are those units ones that follow standard Clan practices, rather than Horse-specific, er, horse-ery?

Read in Zioberg's voice makes it so much funnier ;D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Maelwys on 27 September 2022, 00:28:03
I know that front line forces mix Omnis and battle armor in trinaries / novas with a liberal glee, but what about second line clusters? I know Omnis will show up a bit in all but the most destitute of garrison units, but are pure binaries and trinaries more the norm (aside from vee / infantry supernovas, of course)?

Also, when books mention "generic clusters," are those units ones that follow standard Clan practices, rather than Horse-specific, er, horse-ery?

The average Horse Cluster is here the first three Trinaries are a mix of Mech/BA, then a pure Aerospace, then a Supernova of Conventional Infantry/Vehicles. That's the default for all of the Horses' Clusters (atleast prior to the Jihad).

Then there are 3 variant Clusters that modifies the average Cluster (Strike, Assault, Cavalry) in a variety of ways. So a "generic cluster" is going to just be the average Cluster above, that doesn't fall within one of the variants (so a mixture of units with no real preference/identity).

As to the mix of BA/Mechs in the first three Trinaries, we don't really know, but whatever works is usually the answer.


Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 27 September 2022, 09:35:01
I know that front line forces mix Omnis and battle armor in trinaries / novas with a liberal glee

Classically, Horse clusters fielded three supernova trinaries of omnimechs and battle armor and one supernova trinary of combat vehicles and unarmored infantry (and one aerospace fighter trinary).

Quote
but what about second line clusters? I know Omnis will show up a bit in all but the most destitute of garrison units, but are pure binaries and trinaries more the norm (aside from vee / infantry supernovas, of course)?

I don’t think there’s a canon source that says for certain.  Logically, fewer omnimechs and battle armor suits would mean fewer of those supernova trinaries, but it’s not clear what replaces them in secondline clusters.  All we really get is the description of the Generic and Ranger secondline clusters, which just says that Generic clusters are grab-bags of units and Ranger clusters favor mobile, long-range harassers.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Touman#Unit_Structure (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Touman#Unit_Structure)

Quote
Also, when books mention "generic clusters," are those units ones that follow standard Clan practices, rather than Horse-specific, er, horse-ery?

AFAIK, description above is about all we get.

Some of this also depends on era.  By the Dark Age, the Horses have developed Horde clusters, which deviate a lot from the classic cluster structure.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 27 September 2022, 22:52:42
Generally, a Secondline unit uses older out moded units in it's makeup with few if any Omni.

What I found is that if you wanted to, a Nova leading a Binary making this Trinary effective. Now I've seen some makeups bother using Nova Binaries and an Assualt Star slugging it out. Vehicle makes too...

Only recently I've seen Aero mixed into the fray.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: WONC on 28 September 2022, 12:28:37
So what I'm gathering is, if a second line cluster had a binary supernova of omnis and elementals, a trinary or two of standard 'mechs, a supernova trinary of infantry/vehicles/protomechs/elementals/whatever works, and a binary of aerofighters, it would "feel" like a Horses unit? 'Cause I can work with that quite nicely.

Read in Zioberg's voice makes it so much funnier ;D

What can I say? I do what I can, why not?  :))

Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 28 September 2022, 17:14:27
So what I'm gathering is, if a second line cluster had a binary supernova of omnis and elementals, a trinary or two of standard 'mechs, a supernova trinary of infantry/vehicles/protomechs/elementals/whatever works, and a binary of aerofighters, it would "feel" like a Horses unit? 'Cause I can work with that quite nicely.

Absolutely.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 28 September 2022, 21:18:43

This is a Hellion cluster, so everything is 6/9 or faster and not Horse flavor.  But it mixes novas, mech stars, and proto stars in the three core trinaries.   There’s also an auxiliary trinary of vehicle/infantry novas.  May be a jumping off point for the org for this Horse cluster.

9th Hellion Attack Cluster —> https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/9th-hellion-attack-cluster/msg1084228/#msg1084228 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/9th-hellion-attack-cluster/msg1084228/#msg1084228)

Depending on the era/year, Horse secondline clusters might also have a lot of quadvees and protomechs.  They can actually pair well together  with the protos screening and critical-seeking for the longer-ranged and hole-punching quadvees.  I played with some mixed stars or 2-3 quadvee points and 2-3 protomech points in this Horse keshik (never really finished).  May be of interest:

Omicron Keshik —> https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/chh-omicron-keshik/msg1453228/#msg1453228 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/chh-omicron-keshik/msg1453228/#msg1453228)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: WONC on 28 September 2022, 21:36:07
Sweet! Appreciate the insight and help, y'all.

Also, that Hellion cluster is giving me the courage to test out a Trinary idea I had a while back, with one star of VTOLs, a star of elementals in Sylph suits, and a star of fast protomechs. Just for the beautiful chaos of it all. Also, I think I need to try out quadvees finally. I've been hesitant so far, but mostly because of general indecision.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 29 September 2022, 17:21:37
Sweet! Appreciate the insight and help, y'all.

Also, that Hellion cluster is giving me the courage to test out a Trinary idea I had a while back, with one star of VTOLs, a star of elementals in Sylph suits, and a star of fast protomechs. Just for the beautiful chaos of it all. Also, I think I need to try out quadvees finally. I've been hesitant so far, but mostly because of general indecision.

Re: Quadvees, the Notos is where it's at. A Nova of ten of those and five Points of LRM Gnomes is pretty spectacular.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: The Last Dance on 18 October 2022, 08:36:40
Greetings.

I was thinking of a HH Nova for Alpha Strike to complement my Jade Falcon forces. In terms of era, I was thinking Jihad, and I have 250 PV to work with. I definitely want Elementals in there, somewhere - but what OmniMechs would be good "signature" Hell's Horses machines to go with them?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 18 October 2022, 20:54:18
Greetings.

I was thinking of a HH Nova for Alpha Strike to complement my Jade Falcon forces. In terms of era, I was thinking Jihad, and I have 250 PV to work with. I definitely want Elementals in there, somewhere - but what OmniMechs would be good "signature" Hell's Horses machines to go with them?

250 is kinda tight for a full nova, Elementals eat up 100PV.

That aside CHH invented the Nova omnimech. If you dont mind metal, the Bailus was invented mid-Jihad as well, and is a totem Omni. The Stormcrow also came from the CHH Corvis, and in general is pretty common being one of the OG set of Omnimechs.

CHH also generally lack friends, outside of the Coyotes, and the Jihad strained that relationship. But they could have salvage from any number of people they didnt do well with, the Ghost Bears being their big feud.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 19 October 2022, 12:26:59
Well… they HAD a big feud and then mid-Jihad and pre-Dark Age they ended up getting close. IlClan era well the HH Khan messed up badly and we went back to sleeping.

So if you’re going to be setting it the Jihad some CGB mechs aren’t the worst idea.

I’ll second the Stormcrow: I’ve recently been playing a couple variants and the usually perform well. My local opponent runs HH but a lot of his mechs are IIC or older designs… however Ugly as Sin Thunder Stallion also never disappoints.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Bren on 27 November 2022, 03:07:46
It's definitely a long shot of the highest order -- but if there was a stretch goal with a Clan vehicle pack in the next Kickstarter what would you like to see? I would be quite interested to see how a redesign / reimagining of these would go.

I assume the Epona is non-negotiable ...

2 x Epona
2 x ...
2 x ...
2 x ...
2 x ...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 27 November 2022, 04:05:14
The epona is just awesome, it’s gotta be in there

For the other 4 sets (just to make it a clan star)

Oro
Donar
Mars
Hachiman

The Oro/Hachiman could be swapped to something else. Maybe something wheeled to get a bit more variety in there, but nothing else is particularly exciting to me.

A support pack with some Badgers and Bandits would be nice as well
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: JAMES_PRYDE on 27 November 2022, 04:29:41
Epona Rhi  8) She's a hot one to handle ;D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Ruger on 27 November 2022, 09:31:15
Epona-D
Hephaestus
Enyo
Bellona
Zephyros

Ruger
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: pokefan548 on 27 November 2022, 11:14:26
My guess is we might get some Clan vehicles during or shortly before the next KS after Mercs. Epona and Mars are definitely needed.

My guess is:
Battlefield Support: Clan Assault - Mars, Oro, Kokou, Ku, Hachiman
Battlefield Support: Clan Light Cavalry - Epona, Asshur, Odin, Svantovit, Hephaestus(?)

Could sub the Heph out for something if they don't want to get into Civil War designs yet, and most members of the assault star could be subbed out for an Ishtar if need be.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 27 November 2022, 14:02:05
While I can see more of a Clan thing. I wonder if they should apply to the classic Blackwell designs.

Wolf's Dragoons brought with them from clan space, all the old cached Clan Widowmaker designs...

So wouldn't the Bandit and the Badger be more appropriate? After all, they are canon...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 27 November 2022, 15:01:45
While I can see more of a Clan thing. I wonder if they should apply to the classic Blackwell designs.

Wolf's Dragoons brought with them from clan space, all the old cached Clan Widowmaker designs...

So wouldn't the Bandit and the Badger be more appropriate? After all, they are canon...

TT

Are those vehicles even in production in the Dark Age? I thought they essentialy died out after the destruction of Blackwell on Outreach and Valencia. And I am pretty sure Arc Royal only produced some Mechs from the specs the Dragoons brought with them after retreating from Outreach
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 27 November 2022, 15:46:38
Mars, Epona, Svantovit, SM1, and probably some transport at the least. The Huey,  Ares, Athena, Carnivore, Joust, and JES I as well as a bunch of other IS vehicles for sure. But most of these designs go into IlClan era so IDK
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 28 November 2022, 01:36:23
Are those vehicles even in production in the Dark Age?

Clan makes have the C in their model name. They are still " in Production... "

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Bren on 29 November 2022, 02:40:17
Interesting picks everyone, thanks. I do have a strong bias in favour of selections that are viable before Revival, but interested to see the vehicle selections beyond that.

In the interest of 'selections that are viable' over a larger period of time ... what about 'Star League' stuff? read: SLDF, Clan, Society, etc. Though in the interest of being greedy I'd label this as a Comstar pack in order to get six designs ...

5 Gabriel Reconnaissance Hovercraft (scout)
The fluff says 'the standard scout of the SLDF' so that's basically good enough for me right there. Plus I’d really like to see the mini for a tiny, 5-ton, single-crew hovercraft. However -- is the probe on the Beagle just too good to pass up? If so I could be convinced to surrender the hover scout spot in the six-pack.

40 Zephyr Medium Hovertank (striker)
Not much to say here -- feels like this nicely covers some gaps in this little lineup.

60 Demon Wheeled Tank (brawler)
Being the SLDF’s 'standard fighting vehicle for engaging mechs' this is a must-have for my list.

75 Burke Heavy Tank (sniper)
Big pluses in the 'iconic' category with the fluff saying that the Burke is the 'backbone of the SLDF’s heavy tank regiments', and at least as late as 3062 it was still among the designs that still 'dominated' the Com Guard roster. What gives me pause about this one is the fact we're about to get the Schrek in an upcoming pack. Too much redundancy? Or is the Burke iconic enough for the SLDF, Clans, Com Guard, and Society that it’s still worth inclusion?

75 Von Luckner Heavy Tank (juggernaut)
A 'a mainstay of Terran and Star League defensive forces' and an old friend from the original TRO 3025 -- strange as it may sound I'm somewhat hesitant to add this to my list because of its conventional look. I like the goofy/futuristic character of most of these '2750' types, and so would be perfectly willing to drop this for something more 'Age of War' (Puma?).

80 Rhino Fire Support Tank (missile boat)
I had a tough time picking an assault-weight vehicle, but settled on the Rhino. Pluses include widespread use among the SLDF; 'a standard tank for defensive deployments' and ubiquity; 'found in every military of the Inner Sphere'. Unfortunately I could see arguments that the Sturmfeur/Rhino venn diagram overlaps too much -- but the Rhino is such a better fit for almost every other factions' force at a given date.


Notable mentions:

I really, really want to put the Cyrano on the list (30-ton VTOL gunship), but if I’m honest with myself I think I'd be fine with a Warrior VTOL stand-in for the time being.

There's a distinct lack of wheels in my pack there and I find the Chevalier interesting -- but it’s not enough to beat out the handy Zephyr for that 'striker' spot.

Alacorn is very interesting but it's so much better than the Burke that including it would really make the Burke’s inclusion pointless (outside of fluff reasons).

I think the various infantry transports are very important -- but perhaps the best bet for them is another (imaginary) specialized pack? APCs, IFVs, large transport VTOLs, small, special forces VTOLs ...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: nova_dew on 28 January 2023, 04:10:58
Given possible future event's would anyone mind issuing a trial that can thrown to take Bear bondsman?

Asking for a Trothkin who doesn't like Alaric, plus you have all the pretty tanks :D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 26 February 2023, 14:24:28
Question for the Horde…

Would a Mech/Vehicle Nova be a thing?

5 Mechs with 10 Vee’s?

I know it’s usually mechs or vees and Elementals or Proto’s (or aerospace if you’re the Ravens), but to my knowledge mechs and vees are not really a thing.

Anyone ever hear of such a thing or think it’s plausible?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 26 February 2023, 15:36:37
Question for the Horde…

Would a Mech/Vehicle Nova be a thing?

5 Mechs with 10 Vee’s?

I know it’s usually mechs or vees and Elementals or Proto’s (or aerospace if you’re the Ravens), but to my knowledge mechs and vees are not really a thing.

Anyone ever hear of such a thing or think it’s plausible?

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-articles/oddball-novas-and-supernovas/

Has the last big discussion about it along with all canon nova descriptions.

I would say it has merit, with a couple examples of fighter mech novas
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 26 February 2023, 17:39:46
Thanks for that. I do remember reading that thread at some point.

Yeah I’ve got a lot of ‘wants’ for a Hell Horses themed unit but I’m trying to only make it a Trinary (with Nova’s because tanks and Elementals) but I’ve got too many vehicles/mechs and infantry to cram in and the only way to keep it one Trinary is to bunch mechs and vehicles in one star…

Realistically the more I look at it the more I really need to split it into two units and that irks me because I had the ‘perfect’ Cluster composition and now the numbers will be skewed.

But thanks!

EDIT: and the more I think of it having one mech and two tanks could be pretty broken as a formation in battle. That or I switch to all QuadVee’s lol
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 26 February 2023, 20:13:22
Question for the Horde…

Would a Mech/Vehicle Nova be a thing?

5 Mechs with 10 Vee’s?

I know it’s usually mechs or vees and Elementals or Proto’s (or aerospace if you’re the Ravens), but to my knowledge mechs and vees are not really a thing.

Anyone ever hear of such a thing or think it’s plausible?

I’d say no.  The purpose of a Nova is for Unit Type A to provide more rapid tactical (maybe operational/strategic) movement for Unit Type B than Unit Type B could achieve on its own.  Something has to be carrying and deploying something else into combat.  Specifically, a Nova is infantry, either BA or standard, deploying from a mech, combat vehicle, or fighter into combat.

In the case of mechs and combat vehicles, there’s no way for the mechs to carry and deploy the vehicles (or vice-versa) into combat.  (BattleMech Recovery Vehicles and Atlases throwing Savannah Masters don’t count.)  You could still have a mech star and a vehicle star trained to work closely together.  But organizationally they would just be separate stars in a mixed binary or trinary.

The one oddity is protomechs, which the Society created proto-sized magclamps for so they could mechanize with omnimechs.  But that was under the Society’s Un/Trey/Sept organization, so still no novas there.  In the Clans proper, protos just move alongside mechs and vehicles which makes sense, since protos, unlike infantry, can move as fast or faster than mechs and vehicles.  Unlike infantry, protos don’t need a carrier to keep up.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 26 February 2023, 20:40:26
The increased tactical mobility of a nova is the byproduct, not the point, of the formation. The point is to have two units trained in close support of each other.

The Fighter/mech novas show this. As more or less do the elemental/aero novas. Not every fighter Star  will have 3/4 fighters to dedicate as Kirghiz Cs every time.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 26 February 2023, 22:08:04
The increased tactical mobility of a nova is the byproduct, not the point, of the formation. The point is to have two units trained in close support of each other.

We’ll have to disagree.  For me, it’s just mechanized or air infantry, of which the component elements may or may not be trained well to work together.

It makes no material difference whether a mech star and a vehicle star are under a nova commander or a binary captain.  Both the commander and the captain can train them to work together (or not).

It makes a material difference whether an elemental star has organic transport (nova) or not (separate stars or binaries/trinaries).  And then training is yet a separate issue.

Quote
The Fighter/mech novas show this.

There are mixed stars of mechs and fighters (and BA).  The old Wolf command stars consisted of two omnimechs, two BA points, and one point of fighters, for example.  But AFAIK, there are no novas of five mechs and ten fighters.

Quote
As more or less do the elemental/aero novas. Not every fighter Star  will have 3/4 fighters to dedicate as Kirghiz Cs every time.

AFAIK, we’ve never seen a BA/fighter nova.  We just assume they exist, at least in the Scorpion touman at one time, from the Kirghiz C design/write-up.  But again, that would be a proper nova, providing infantry with organic transport.  That’s very different from mechs and vehicles, where one is not providing transport of any kind for the other.

YMMV... FWIW...
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 26 February 2023, 22:18:48
FM Crusader Clans and FM Warden Clans via Sarna

Quote
The primary difference between a Nova and a mixed Binary is the former's more intense emphasis on combined-arms training and deployment. The result is that when working together a Nova will outperform a mixed Binary, however if forced to operate separately its constituent parts will be less effective than their standard counterparts.

Also see the linked thread above for all non-standard nova formations.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: pokefan548 on 27 February 2023, 00:58:17
Lest we forget that the OmniMech that pioneered the doctrine of using mechanized Battle Armor—the 'Mech that shares its name with the Nova—is specifically designed to be a BA transporter as much as anything else. Only its middling (by Clan standards) speed of 5/8 holds it back compared to other BA taxis like the Fire Moth.

Safe to say that tactical transportation was alwaya an objective of the Nova formation, and the added training for coordination was as much a product of being developed by the Horses as it was a requirement to keep the formation cohesive during complex maneuvers.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 27 February 2023, 01:20:05
FM Crusader Clans and FM Warden Clans via Sarna

It’s canon, but it’s silly.  A binary captain can train separate mech and BA stars to work together as well as a nova commander can.  The substantive difference is that the BA in one has organic transport, and the other does not.

Quote
Also see the linked thread above for all non-standard nova formations.

Most of those are probably not confirmable nova formations, just someone’s extrapolation of possible nova formations from unit descriptions.

Again, YMMV… whatever works for your game.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 27 February 2023, 09:28:02
Fair enough descriptions and comments. Again thanks a lot. The more I look at it the more and more I’m going to have to reorganize the Cluster as a whole.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 27 February 2023, 10:36:58
Fair enough descriptions and comments. Again thanks a lot. The more I look at it the more and more I’m going to have to reorganize the Cluster as a whole.

There are likely examples here that will help:

 https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/clan-hell's-horses-tau-galaxy-the-brimstone-cataphracts/ (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/clan-hell's-horses-tau-galaxy-the-brimstone-cataphracts/)

This may (or may not) be useful:

 https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/chh-omicron-keshik/msg1453610/#msg1453610 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/chh-omicron-keshik/msg1453610/#msg1453610)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 27 February 2023, 19:10:43
I am finally going to embark on painting up some HH delta galaxy. If you done some up what was your primer and base coat?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Crimson Dynamo on 27 February 2023, 21:20:21
I tried to match the art in Tamar Rising like on pg 106, a more subdued camo compared to the brighter renditions of the scheme. Over a black basecoat, I based GW Zandri Dust and Vallejo Terracotta, and that's as far as I've gotten so far. I'll hit them with an Agrax Earthshade wash, then drybrush the colors back up and hit them with another, watered down wash if the drybrushing left any chalkiness.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 28 February 2023, 06:15:40
I tried to match the art in Tamar Rising like on pg 106, a more subdued camo compared to the brighter renditions of the scheme. Over a black basecoat, I based GW Zandri Dust and Vallejo Terracotta, and that's as far as I've gotten so far. I'll hit them with an Agrax Earthshade wash, then drybrush the colors back up and hit them with another, watered down wash if the drybrushing left any chalkiness.

Thanks! And I love that terracotta idea
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 03 March 2023, 15:08:31
After reading through Dominion Divided I saw just how close the Horses are actually to the capital of the Dominion. Isn't New Oslo basically a jump away from Rasalhague? If the Horses are build up as the antagonist of the IlClan would you expect a blitzkrieg assault at that particular point? Like cutting of the head right at the start?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kerfuffin(925) on 03 March 2023, 15:15:11
After reading through Dominion Divided I saw just how close the Horses are actually to the capital of the Dominion. Isn't New Oslo basically a jump away from Rasalhague? If the Horses are build up as the antagonist of the IlClan would you expect a blitzkrieg assault at that particular point? Like cutting of the head right at the start?

Horses are pretty dumb, but they aren’t ‘let’s get us wiped off the map’ dumb.

2 min/maxed warships vs 2 destroyers.

40 vs 50 clusters.

Last time CHH poked the bear while they were in a war with the dracs they pivoted.

Bears can go either way, so no point in isolating an ally
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 03 March 2023, 15:16:23
After reading through Dominion Divided I saw just how close the Horses are actually to the capital of the Dominion. Isn't New Oslo basically a jump away from Rasalhague? If the Horses are build up as the antagonist of the IlClan would you expect a blitzkrieg assault at that particular point? Like cutting of the head right at the start?

I was about to say I thought Horses and Bears were on good terms, but Fulk is Khan now and he reads as irresponsibly aggressive.

Though I don’t think Horses are meant to be the ilclan’s antagonists. Not alone anyway. They’d need to show the Horses less goobery to make them a good antagonist. I think all the “we want to get away from IS vs Clan” mentions I see (that haven’t really been backed by anything yet) might mean Horses ally with Spheroid powers in whatever xoalition opposes Alaric’s Reunifications Wars 2.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 03 March 2023, 15:41:22
I was about to say I thought Horses and Bears were on good terms, but Fulk is Khan now and he reads as irresponsibly aggressive.

I'm really hoping Peter Cobb takes his place, and soon. He's the one asking the hard questions of the Clan, and I get big James Cobb (the best Horse Khan in publication history, IMO) vibes from him.

But before he goes, I really hope Fulk brings the Bucephalus back to Sudeten and wipes Jiyi (or at least Hammarr) off the map.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Angrii on 03 March 2023, 18:57:37
I'm really hoping Peter Cobb takes his place, and soon. He's the one asking the hard questions of the Clan, and I get big James Cobb (the best Horse Khan in publication history, IMO) vibes from him.

But before he goes, I really hope Fulk brings the Bucephalus back to Sudeten and wipes Jiyi (or at least Hammarr) off the map.

Agreed on  Peter Cobb. He has the potential to make the Horses into more than stooges. But as far as Jiyi, I have to disagree; it would be a real shame to kill him off just when he's starting to make the Falcons interesting.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 03 March 2023, 19:09:58
But as far as Jiyi, I have to disagree; it would be a real shame to kill him off just when he's starting to make the Falcons interesting.

I honestly wish I could see what other people see in Jiyi sometimes, I really do. But I don't. He feels more like a plot device than a real character.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Angrii on 03 March 2023, 19:51:39
To be fair, almost everyone is just a plot device to a greater or lesser degree.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 03 March 2023, 19:56:04
I honestly wish I could see what other people see in Jiyi sometimes, I really do. But I don't. He feels more like a plot device than a real character.

Well he certainly is more than a little different than Malvina I like his casual style plucky ways.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 03 March 2023, 21:20:13
I was about to say I thought Horses and Bears were on good terms, but Fulk is Khan now and he reads as irresponsibly aggressive.

Though I don’t think Horses are meant to be the ilclan’s antagonists. Not alone anyway. They’d need to show the Horses less goobery to make them a good antagonist. I think all the “we want to get away from IS vs Clan” mentions I see (that haven’t really been backed by anything yet) might mean Horses ally with Spheroid powers in whatever xoalition opposes Alaric’s Reunifications Wars 2.

Am I the only one who now wants to see a Lyran quadvee.  Not to mention if the CHH hears about what Alaric did they may have “harvest trials” to create a force to remove the Wolf Empire from Terra.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 04 March 2023, 03:20:14
I was about to say I thought Horses and Bears were on good terms, but Fulk is Khan now and he reads as irresponsibly aggressive.

Though I don’t think Horses are meant to be the ilclan’s antagonists. Not alone anyway. They’d need to show the Horses less goobery to make them a good antagonist. I think all the “we want to get away from IS vs Clan” mentions I see (that haven’t really been backed by anything yet) might mean Horses ally with Spheroid powers in whatever xoalition opposes Alaric’s Reunifications Wars 2.

Not sure if I would say that both Clans are on good terms. The Horses took someplanets from the Bears after they had distanced themselves from the Falcons (though in proper Clan fashion) and also to proove that their mongol theory was still valid (and to be fair the Horses version sound defintely more soud then the Falcon version especially the "Mobile wall of assualt Mechs")

I for one hope that the Horses stay around as they are one of my favorite Clans. And when it comes to Reunification Wars 2 Alaric boogaloo: isn't the Combine being turned into a sort of object lesson? The Bears just started an assault to provoke them and the Ravnes seems to have their eyes set on them as well (though also part of the Suns)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 04 March 2023, 13:33:16
Not sure if I would say that both Clans are on good terms. The Horses took someplanets from the Bears after they had distanced themselves from the Falcons (though in proper Clan fashion) and also to proove that their mongol theory was still valid (and to be fair the Horses version sound defintely more soud then the Falcon version especially the "Mobile wall of assualt Mechs")

I for one hope that the Horses stay around as they are one of my favorite Clans. And when it comes to Reunification Wars 2 Alaric boogaloo: isn't the Combine being turned into a sort of object lesson? The Bears just started an assault to provoke them and the Ravnes seems to have their eyes set on them as well (though also part of the Suns)

Yeah. I’m not real certain on Horse/Besr relations. I do expect them to deteriorate with Fulk in charge.

I don’t think the DC is an object lesson. Ravens hit the FedSuns and the Bear’s actions smack of really, really optimistic “we’ll win a quick war and secure our influence.” So, I’m not really seeing Alaric effectively planning anything related to the DC
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Crimson Dynamo on 08 April 2023, 20:47:45
Has anything more ever been said of the survivors of the two Star Adder units gained by the Horses during the Reavings, the 191st Guards and the 5th Assault Clusters? Both were elite units from the Adder Alpha Galaxy (the 5th represented the Adders during the REVIVAL Trials). Would the Horses Watch simply have received an infusion of highly-skilled personnel?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: pokefan548 on 09 April 2023, 07:56:45
Has anything more ever been said of the survivors of the two Star Adder units gained by the Horses during the Reavings, the 191st Guards and the 5th Assault Clusters? Both were elite units from the Adder Alpha Galaxy (the 5th represented the Adders during the REVIVAL Trials). Would the Horses Watch simply have received an infusion of highly-skilled personnel?
They were integrated into the Horse Touman after the Wars of Reaving, yes.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 02 June 2023, 02:26:51
Elements of Treason: Honor is out on Amazon, trothkin. It's a Hell's Horses novel centered around Peter Cobb from Tamar Rising.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Angrii on 02 June 2023, 14:21:11
Color me interested. I would have wished for a different author but beggars can't be choosers I suppose.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 02 June 2023, 14:56:59
I haven’t finished it, but it really feels like it’s prepping Horses to actually be relevant
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 02 June 2023, 15:56:39
It was an okay read, as far as BattleTech books go. The fact that it was Horses-centric, a first for the franchise, made this an insta-buy for me. But there were a few things that felt off to me. I'll spoiler-tag them for those who haven't read yet.

The biggest thing I noticed was the Horses having such a poor attitude about their lower castes when previous books, namely A Rending of Falcons, established the literal opposite of this; there, we saw warriors helping the techs do maintenance checks and competing in sporting events with techs (and losing to them!), and it was disappointing to see this forgotten about. But I've noticed that a lot of writers either didn't read some of the MWDA novels like this or just decided to ignore them, and neither of those things sit well with me in what is supposed to be a collective, collaborative shared universe.

As for Peter Cobb, the POV character of the book, he just feels like another retread in the vein of characters like James Cobb, Noritomo Helmer, Stephanie Chistu, etc., the types that want to fix whatever wrongs their leadership has done, with nothing that really made him interesting to read about. I'm sure he'll make a perfectly fine, if bland, Khan one day, but he just didn't hit the mark for me.

There were also a couple of info-dumps that felt like they were transcribed almost verbatim from the sourcebooks. I could be wrong about this, and it's not the worst thing in the world, but it was definitely something I noticed because I'm pretty familiar with those sourcebook entries.


All in all, though, it was an entertaining read. I finished it in one sitting last night.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 02 June 2023, 22:46:00

The biggest thing I noticed was the Horses having such a poor attitude about their lower castes when previous books, namely A Rending of Falcons, established the literal opposite of this; there, we saw warriors helping the techs do maintenance checks and competing in sporting events with techs (and losing to them!), and it was disappointing to see this forgotten about. But I've noticed that a lot of writers either didn't read some of the MWDA novels like this or just decided to ignore them, and neither of those things sit well with me in what is supposed to be a collective, collaborative shared universe.


After reading I felt the whole poor attitude between the castes was more due to the Malvinas and even the Wolves influence.  The writer also had to work with a few restrictions mainly the lack of advancement (territory wise) with the Hells Horses before the Wolves and Falcons left for Terra.  In Tamar Rising there were a few planets conquered by the CHH that made it worse not better and the writer probably had to reflect what happened in the story.  After reading the Era reports of 3145, Field Manual: 3145 era and Tamar Rising I felt that the CHH become more like the Falcons in various attitudes. 

I feel the novel addresses some of the issues  and creates an opening for them to grow as a faction instead of being a carbon copy of the other Clans but with tanks.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 02 June 2023, 23:08:09
After reading I felt the whole poor attitude between the castes was more due to the Malvinas and even the Wolves influence.  The writer also had to work with a few restrictions mainly the lack of advancement (territory wise) with the Hells Horses before the Wolves and Falcons left for Terra.  In Tamar Rising there were a few planets conquered by the CHH that made it worse not better and the writer probably had to reflect what happened in the story.  After reading the Era reports of 3145, Field Manual: 3145 era and Tamar Rising I felt that the CHH become more like the Falcons in various attitudes. 

I feel the novel addresses some of the issues  and creates an opening for them to grow as a faction instead of being a carbon copy of the other Clans but with tanks.


I have to disagree with this. We've never been told in a sourcebook nor shown in a story that the Horses' alliance with Malvina ever affected how the Horses treat their lower castes. In "A Rending of Falcons", we were not only shown that the Horses have the exact opposite attitude to the lower castes that this story showed, Malvina herself was influenced by them and started giving the Falcons' lower castes a chance to fight and win a place in the warrior caste. I almost feel like the writer maybe didn't read this book, which surprises me because it's the only book in the Dark Age that the Horses had a significant role in.

I also disagree that the Horses are a "carbon copy of the other Clans but with tanks". We've got the Horses' Mongol Doctrine which ended up completely reshaping their touman, we've seen the introduction of a brand-new unit type in the QuadVee, we've seen the introduction of a new phenotype with the TankWarriors (this novel not including a TankWarrior character is absolutely criminal), Shrapnel showed us that the Horses have a whole side hustle going with racing mounts from all over the Inner Sphere and that they have random tank races on random hostile planets, and "A Rending of Falcons" gave us a fantastic look at the Horses' culture up-close: they bring riding horses with them on maneuvers, they have trucks that unfold into yurts, they compete in sporting events with their lower castes... the Horses were already a distinct Clan before this book.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Angrii on 03 June 2023, 09:34:47
Well this is sounding like it's going to be a letdown... Someone at least tell me infantry and/or protomechs get some spotlight?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 03 June 2023, 11:33:37
Well this is sounding like it's going to be a letdown... Someone at least tell me infantry and/or protomechs get some spotlight?

Protos get mentioned, but really only an acknowledgment that they exist.

Infantry do get brought up as assets and their work affects the story (and is acknowledged), though there isn’t really any POV of them being used.

It was an okay read, as far as BattleTech books go. The fact that it was Horses-centric, a first for the franchise, made this an insta-buy for me. But there were a few things that felt off to me. I'll spoiler-tag them for those who haven't read yet.

The biggest thing I noticed was the Horses having such a poor attitude about their lower castes when previous books, namely A Rending of Falcons, established the literal opposite of this; there, we saw warriors helping the techs do maintenance checks and competing in sporting events with techs (and losing to them!), and it was disappointing to see this forgotten about. But I've noticed that a lot of writers either didn't read some of the MWDA novels like this or just decided to ignore them, and neither of those things sit well with me in what is supposed to be a collective, collaborative shared universe.

If we are generous, we might be able to ascribe that to Fulk and Gottfried being being terrible khans and their incompetence literally degrading the quality of the clan.


I will say that getting to see the Horses Khans meeting Alaric from the opposite POV was fun. Every last Horse besides the Khans had the internal monologue of “you idiots, we’re all gonna die from Your stupidity.” It helps get rid of the broad brush impression of a clan of fools you get in HotW.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: trboturtle on 03 June 2023, 11:42:27
Hey, fans!

Been reading the comments and if you need something clarified, let me know!  :thumbsup:

As for the discussion about Hell's Horses Society.....It's not the same as it was in A Rending of Falcons. Fifteen years, a badly mauled Hell's Horses force returning from the Falcon Alliance, and two khans who are opposing each other have changed things. Throw in the fact the Horses have been in a holding pattern for most of that time, and they are not unified anymore. Their society is beginning to fragment, and it's happening between castes and inside castes. Lalia points our that Clanners are not built for peace -- they need war. The Horses are unbalanced, warriors without a war.

Now, with Gottfried Amirault's death, their society will have less stress. They will be better now that Fulk Lassenerra isn't fighting with his new sakhan all the time. Not perfect, but better.

Craig
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 03 June 2023, 12:35:53
First, let me say this: my nitpicks aside, I did genuinely enjoy this book. In fact, literally the moment a friend on here PMed to let me know it was up on Amazon, I bought it and read it in one sitting. And as a Hell's Horses fan, I'm super grateful to get a novel told entirely from their POV. I can tell that you did your homework and it shows in your writing that you have love for what you're doing. So for that, let me offer my sincerest thanks. This book and Jaguars Leap are honestly my favorite Clan books to come out in quite a long time.

The complete 180 the Horses did in terms of their attitudes towards their lower castes... I can wrap my brain around them turning their frustrations inward, but it feels a bit out of character for them, as opposed to, say, the Falcons or the Jaguars. I just feel like the book didn't really explain this, just treated it like it was fact and moved on. We didn't see any of that happening in Tamar Rising or FM/ER3145, so it feels like it came out of left field to boot.

I definitely agree with the gist of what you're saying, though, especially about the Horses being stuck in a holding pattern. And when they've tried to step out of it by dealing with Malvina, they've been burned pretty badly. AND they just missed out on a shot at taking Terra because of their terrible Khan. I can absolutely see them in real danger because they're floundering about without a purpose.

That's really my only real gripe. As long as a big shift like that isn't written OOCly and is explained properly "on-panel", even if the end result is something I don't necessarily like, that's good enough for me. :)

Oh, two gripes... why the heck didn't you throw in a TankWarrior?! I was so sad not to see one show up! ;D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 03 June 2023, 15:29:27
The complete 180 the Horses did in terms of their attitudes towards their lower castes... I can wrap my brain around them turning their frustrations inward, but it feels a bit out of character for them, as opposed to, say, the Falcons or the Jaguars. I just feel like the book didn't really explain this, just treated it like it was fact and moved on. We didn't see any of that happening in Tamar Rising or FM/ER3145, so it feels like it came out of left field to boot.
Maybe I read the sections of ER 3145 & FM 3145 differently than you. The first paragraph on pg 60 of ER 3145 for example has the phrases "...they adopted a hands-off method of dealing with the populace..." and "the two societies are still separate in so many ways, but they are united against outsiders."

And in FM 3145 on pg 151 at the start of the HH section, "Generally, they tend to leave the native populations alone, and the natives respect their enclaves and authority in turn." Later near the end of the HH section on that page, "Though some natives have passed through the Old Regret Training Facility, the lack of real integration puts a question mark over the population's general loyalty. This is doubly true for those of the former Wolf Occupation Zone worlds."

For the record I wasn't involved in this project.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 03 June 2023, 15:48:16
Maybe I read the sections of ER 3145 & FM 3145 differently than you. The first paragraph on pg 60 of ER 3145 for example has the phrases "...they adopted a hands-off method of dealing with the populace..." and "the two societies are still separate in so many ways, but they are united against outsiders."

And in FM 3145 on pg 151 at the start of the HH section, "Generally, they tend to leave the native populations alone, and the natives respect their enclaves and authority in turn." Later near the end of the HH section on that page, "Though some natives have passed through the Old Regret Training Facility, the lack of real integration puts a question mark over the population's general loyalty. This is doubly true for those of the former Wolf Occupation Zone worlds."

I'm not talking about the native Spheroid population, I'm talking about the Horses' own lower castes, the ones that are already a part of their society and who do all of the work supporting the touman and infrastructure of the Clan. I wonder if the Horses even consider the native population to be a part of their lower castes.

And I'm saying that we've previously been shown in FM:CC that the Hell's Horses have great relations with their lower castes and even with the freeborns and solahma in their ranks, and were shown in A Rending of Falcons (about 15 years previous to this book) competing with them in sports and assisting techs with maintenance checks on their machines. This book literally showed the exact opposite: Peter Cobb was shown assisting a tech and it was presented like it was a novel idea to the Horses.

I totally get why the fallout of the alliance with Malvina would set the warrior caste on itself; we saw previously that Beta Galaxy was very gung-ho for her even after the alliance collapsed and Alpha Galaxy was watchdogging them. But if it's something that's also affecting their relations between them and their own lower castes, that's something that we should either be shown (preferably) or told in the story.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Jellico on 03 June 2023, 18:53:40
I have always read it that the Horses want to be a big Clan when they grow up. With lots of Mechs and dominant MechWarriors just like the other big Clans. But something always goes wrong and it is back to combined arms.

Which is not to say the founders weren't all about man before metal, combined arms etc. But even in the Horses Mechs are the elite fighting units and the Clans are a society dominated by MechWarriors. The quarterback knows he is king even as he acknowledges the rest of the team.

So when the Horses get a bit of material success the balance shifts and things get a bit weird until they lose again. After taking the Wolf OZ the Horses are swimming in potential, so I expect things to get weird.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 03 June 2023, 20:45:37
Actually some of the Mechwarriors who mistreat the lower castes were also are on Malvinas “might makes right” policy and the Golden Ordun began in 3135. So the CHH saw the Jade Falcons succeeding where they were standing still and fighting each other for 16 years (over one clan generation).  No wonder some of them abandoned the CHH way and embracing Malvinas madness.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: WONC on 04 June 2023, 19:31:15
I have always read it that the Horses want to be a big Clan when they grow up. With lots of Mechs and dominant MechWarriors just like the other big Clans. But something always goes wrong and it is back to combined arms.

This idea brings up big Malavai Fletcher vibes to me, and it resonates so much with how both Khans come across in the book. Peter Cobb seems to mirror James Cobb in the respect that he more or less represents the core of what it means to be a Horseman, while the reactionaries and radicals see other Clans succeeding and decide they need to reinvent the wheel instead of leaning into their actual strengths (in the literal case in the book of many Horsemen siting Malvina's version of the Mongol Doctrine as being superior to their own.) It kind of also mirrors how the Horses were portrayed in FM:CC, what with the Crusaders being in power and trying to whip the Clan into a victorious frenzy, while the bulk of the Clan were either Wardens or politically apathetic. That bit in the book about how the Horses are the only Inner Sphere Clan who has yet to adapt to their new reality of being an occupying power really rings true when viewed from that perspective, I think.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 04 June 2023, 20:49:15
I'm not talking about the native Spheroid population, I'm talking about the Horses' own lower castes, the ones that are already a part of their society and who do all of the work supporting the touman and infrastructure of the Clan. I wonder if the Horses even consider the native population to be a part of their lower castes.
Ah, that's my misunderstanding of what you were saying.

I think the alliance with Malvina is probably what ruined relations between the warriors and the other castes. It may not seems like that long, but 15-ish years is a long enough time you'd have the old farts going "back in my day, all the castes were on good terms". Additionally, we've had material covering the military side of things in the DA era, but not too much of that kind of non-military interactions.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Gaiiten on 06 June 2023, 05:02:34
Ah, that's my misunderstanding of what you were saying.

I think the alliance with Malvina is probably what ruined relations between the warriors and the other castes. It may not seems like that long, but 15-ish years is a long enough time you'd have the old farts going "back in my day, all the castes were on good terms". Additionally, we've had material covering the military side of things in the DA era, but not too much of that kind of non-military interactions.

Is it not a general problem all Clans located in the IS have, that the absolute supremacy of the warrior caste has been got weakened more and more?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 06 June 2023, 06:12:04
Is it not a general problem all Clans located in the IS have, that the absolute supremacy of the warrior caste has been got weakened more and more?

The Falcons and Wolves and perhaps to a lesser degree the Ravens would disagree at least from my impression. The Bears are on the other end and the Foxes are well not really rooted anywhere (that only began with the formation of the Clan Protectorate and even then it is more Cats then Foxes)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Gaiiten on 06 June 2023, 06:38:32
The Clans are a minority compared to the Spheroids and the warrior caste is a minority among a minority.

Of the Ravens we do not know so much details given their relations to their civilian castes and Spheroid subjects, but I bet there will come some nasty surprises.

The Sharks are hardly a Clan as they once were and Kerensky intended.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Minemech on 06 June 2023, 19:42:19
 It would be outright bonkers for the Ravens to have poor caste relations. Such a thing just does not work out in an aerospace environ. Furthermore, the Raven espirit de corps is to place the needs of the Clans above anything else, including personal pride and honor.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 06 June 2023, 19:59:41
We don't know what the Ravens' relations with their own lower castes are like in the Dark Age, but we do know that relations between the Ravens and the Outworlders aren't great. The Ravens live pretty much completely separated from the OWA in their own enclaves, the Outworlders can't afford to shop with the Ravens, the Ravens can't get the Outworlder companies to work "for free" to meet their material needs (and the Ravens can't secure the capital to pay them), the strain of the Ravens reactivating their fleet has been hard, the vote for the Raven Alliance merger was apparently really close but less than 40% of the OWA population even bothered to vote in the first place, the balance of power is stated to be lopsidedly in favor of the Ravens with no real pretense of an alliance between equals, the Ravens have to rubber-stamp whoever gets elected to the office of President, and that's to say nothing of the Ravens' recent adventurism or their joining with Alaric's new Star League... it's not great at all for them.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Minemech on 06 June 2023, 20:36:56
We don't know what the Ravens' relations with their own lower castes are like in the Dark Age, but we do know that relations between the Ravens and the Outworlders aren't great. The Ravens live pretty much completely separated from the OWA in their own enclaves, the Outworlders can't afford to shop with the Ravens, the Ravens can't get the Outworlder companies to work "for free" to meet their material needs (and the Ravens can't secure the capital to pay them), the strain of the Ravens reactivating their fleet has been hard, the vote for the Raven Alliance merger was apparently really close but less than 40% of the OWA population even bothered to vote in the first place, the balance of power is stated to be lopsidedly in favor of the Ravens with no real pretense of an alliance between equals, the Ravens have to rubber-stamp whoever gets elected to the office of President, and that's to say nothing of the Ravens' recent adventurism or their joining with Alaric's new Star League... it's not great at all for them.
That was somewhat inevitable given the Raven reluctance to bring in outsiders of any form. They are natural allies of the Bears, but not too many other Clans.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 06 June 2023, 22:18:48
And the Horses apparently aren't even engaging with the native populations of their OZ at all, which can't be making their situation now any easier on them. They're truly walking alone, surrounded on all sides by enemies and frenemies, they just got rid of one terrible leader just to install another one, aforementioned leadership threw a really stupid temper tantrum and walked away from the literal purpose of their Clan existing, and they've been stampeding without direction ever since.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 07 June 2023, 06:30:58
And the Horses apparently aren't even engaging with the native populations of their OZ at all, which can't be making their situation now any easier on them. They're truly walking alone, surrounded on all sides by enemies and frenemies, they just got rid of one terrible leader just to install another one, aforementioned leadership threw a really stupid temper tantrum and walked away from the literal purpose of their Clan existing, and they've been stampeding without direction ever since.

They aren't? From what I understood is that the Horses interact with their IS population and they even recruit IS people into their ranks (those that finish the Old Regret training camp which admittetly aren't many) Now the more interesting bit are the people they "liberated" from the Wolves. The Wolves suppressed those and the Horses do the exact opposite perhaps giving them too much free room so that seeds of rebellion can grow. But in general we haven't seen much interaction between the Clans and their IS populations (with the exception of the Bears and the extensive lore building). We know from the Falcons that they act like the Capellans (Falcon over all) but they also adopt some worthy IS people into their ranks (Merchant Factor Daniel being the most prominent). And under Malvina they actually allowed them some more "freedom" as long as you dont provoke the warriors.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 07 June 2023, 07:53:46
And under Malvina they actually allowed them some more "freedom" as long as you dont provoke the warriors.

Tamar Rising describes it best.  Under Jade Falcon rule most places did okay when Malvina and her Golden Ordun expanded they basically enslaved anyone worth taking and smashed everything in their path.  For some of her warriors if you breathed wrong you got the snot kicked out of you.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Minemech on 07 June 2023, 09:40:59
 Remember that there have been a great deal of instances where people embraced brutal forms of authoritarianism and totalitarianism wholeheartedly. We try to tell ourselves otherwise, or excuse it somehow, but it is a realistic phenomenon. I would do best to avoid specific examples, other than to perhaps mention an Arab proverb "Better a thousand years of tyranny than a single day of anarchy." I do not subscribe to this way of thought. Nor am I saying that the Horses brought anarchy.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 07 June 2023, 10:49:21
They aren't? From what I understood is that the Horses interact with their IS population and they even recruit IS people into their ranks (those that finish the Old Regret training camp which admittetly aren't many)

No, they really aren't, not in any appreciable way. It's noted that while some natives have gone through Old Regret, there's a lack of real integration between the Horses and the natives and thus the Horses question their loyalty. The Horses are also dealing with a dual economy: their own, and a robust black market (which the Horses unofficially look the other way on) for all the things the natives can't get from the Horses. There's a pretty clear divide between the Horses and the native inhabitants of their OZ, and of all the Clans, the Horses are the most separated by far from the Spheroids in their realm.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 07 June 2023, 14:14:06
Tamar Rising describes it best.  Under Jade Falcon rule most places did okay when Malvina and her Golden Ordun expanded they basically enslaved anyone worth taking and smashed everything in their path.  For some of her warriors if you breathed wrong you got the snot kicked out of you.

The people in the original Falcon OZ did ok maybe even better. they had even chances to get up in the society if they had managed to join the military. But the newly conquered people. They got the boot especially if they dared to resist. Probably a difference between living for decades under Falcon thumb or just recently. Remember Operation Audacity? Adam Steiner attacked Malibu and the Malibu goverment led by Lyrans denied them landing wanting to keep living under Falcon rule
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 07 June 2023, 17:37:26
Hello Hell's Horses! I see HH doesn't have an amphibious ProtoMech. I was wondering how you folks want to do it.
Quad? Medium, heavy, or super-heavy? Obviously, it got to have UMUs. There's the multi-purpose missile ammo for missile launchers, the same stuff that the Undine BA has for its launcher. And of course, give it the name Hippocampus.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 07 June 2023, 18:31:47
I have picked up my first batch of gnome battle armor have you used it and if so how did it fare?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 08 June 2023, 03:11:05
Hello Hell's Horses! I see HH doesn't have an amphibious ProtoMech. I was wondering how you folks want to do it.
Quad? Medium, heavy, or super-heavy? Obviously, it got to have UMUs. There's the multi-purpose missile ammo for missile launchers, the same stuff that the Undine BA has for its launcher. And of course, give it the name Hippocampus.

Seyla! A fun idea, but realistically too niche to make it into mass production
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 08 June 2023, 07:17:06
Undewater units are a bit tricky for ProtoMechs. They can use regular walking movement, but there are none that mount UMUs. The missiles can easily swap out missile ammo for torpedoes, but jump jets can't be easily swapped for UMUs. However, if you wanted to make it work for your own games, you could fluff that with a day or two of prep, the techs modify some existing Protos by swapping the JJ for UMUs.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: jklantern on 08 June 2023, 09:20:04
No, they really aren't, not in any appreciable way. It's noted that while some natives have gone through Old Regret, there's a lack of real integration between the Horses and the natives and thus the Horses question their loyalty. The Horses are also dealing with a dual economy: their own, and a robust black market (which the Horses unofficially look the other way on) for all the things the natives can't get from the Horses. There's a pretty clear divide between the Horses and the native inhabitants of their OZ, and of all the Clans, the Horses are the most separated by far from the Spheroids in their realm.

This is strange to me, because I swear I remember the Horses being generally good to their lower castes in FM CC.  But then, Lower Castes isn't exactly the same as "Inner Sphere Population."
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 08 June 2023, 10:04:15
This is strange to me, because I swear I remember the Horses being generally good to their lower castes in FM CC.  But then, Lower Castes isn't exactly the same as "Inner Sphere Population."

A thought has occurred to me is the CHH left their forces separate so they could quickly leave (with all their dependants) and shoot for Terra.  Of course that did not happen and what we are seeing is a habit created from an idea that never happened.
 
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 08 June 2023, 11:16:25
A thought has occurred to me is the CHH left their forces separate so they could quickly leave (with all their dependants) and shoot for Terra.  Of course that did not happen and what we are seeing is a habit created from an idea that never happened.

I don't think this is or was ever the case. The Horses had been set up like that since their initial permanent move to the Inner Sphere, and they were pretty solidly Warden at that time (the rank-and-file always were, and they'd just finished cleaning out their Crusader leadership). In fact, the first time we see the Crusader fire being awakened in them again was when Malvina got her hooks into them.

The reason the Horses kept themselves separate initially was because their "DropShip" cities sprung up around their semi-permanent camps that they set up during the initial invasion of the OZs, and the Horses consciously stayed in those enclaves and took a hands-off policy because 1) the Wolves and Falcons had done the opposite, 2) they were still recovering from the circumstances that brought them there in the first place and 3) the Horses were already naturally inclined to treat them better because of their own inter-caste relations.

It all circles back to the point Craig was making in the new book: the Horses don't have a purpose, haven't had a purpose for a long time now, and now that they've rejected the ilClan, they're even more directionless.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 08 June 2023, 12:31:02
There is the point that the Horses were often looked at as a "follower Clan". They followed the stronger Clans without much own initiative or direction. James Cobb somehow broke them out of that after he had realized that they were played by the Wolves. And what then followed is known: they revenged themselves on the Wolves by carving out a nice OZ. And then they somehow fell into complacency. You might think that rejecting Alaric would be a very clear direction but it seems they struggle with their current leadership. Though what might happen if another Cobb takes over? Revenge oin the Wolves 2 Electric boogaloo?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 08 June 2023, 12:34:47
Though what might happen if another Cobb takes over? Revenge oin the Wolves 2 Electric boogaloo?

I certainly hope BattleTech can do better than to just repeat James Cobb's storyline with Peter Cobb... but so far, that appears to be exactly what's coming.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Angrii on 08 June 2023, 14:25:16
It would still be better than the current state of affairs.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 08 June 2023, 14:28:50
Meh. I'll take not-medicore, not-repetitive storytelling over "my faction is 'winning'" any day of the week. Right now, I can't even tell James Cobb and Peter Cobb apart as characters, and that's not a good thing.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 09 June 2023, 02:26:42
Meh. I'll take not-medicore, not-repetitive storytelling over "my faction is 'winning'" any day of the week. Right now, I can't even tell James Cobb and Peter Cobb apart as characters, and that's not a good thing.

Ok then we get another great Ghost Bear hero loosing his personal duel against a 4 legged Mech (this time a Balius) and then becoming new Khan of the Horses? Or perhaps with a bit different flavor creating a new state out of the Horses and part of the Dominion calling it the Hell Bear Dominion?

And don't we get a similar retelling of other storylines as well? Like the Dragoons getting spurned by their paymasters and then swearing bloody revenge? Sure this times it's the Wolves and the Dragoons but it has a similarity betwen that and the Dragoons and the Combine. Though this time no shouting match between their leaders
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 09 June 2023, 08:23:34
Exactly. The Suns and Combine are just reliving the 1st SW too
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 09 June 2023, 08:37:42
Exactly. The Suns and Combine are just reliving the 1st SW too

I do realize that when the same enemies are fighting at the same border, it’s gonna start to feel repetitive, but the FS/DC border really, really feels like I’ve seen this before. It’s not inherently bad as it kind of channels some old 4SW vibes and that may be the goal.

Big thing for me with the Horses is I want to see a couple things:
A) I want to see them do something, anything, of their own initiative. Most of their lore feels like it’s either “here’s another awesome thing they made that proliferated and other groups use more than they do,” or “and then the horses were another clan’s willing minions”
B) I want to see them evolve. EoT: Honor is right that they’ve been pretty stagnant.

If Peter Cobb is a bit of a repeat character, but he enables those two things, I’ll take it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 09 June 2023, 08:54:28
Lore wise the only thing the Horses have done out of thewir own initiative are the Elemental phenotype and in the current timeline the tankwarrior and the Quadvee. Something that is still theirs only (and perhaps the Mongol doctrine at least in it's "cleansed" form) Which isn't even new they probably looked at House Steiner's wall of steel and thought "Hey can we make this wall mobile?". At least that's the vibe I got from the source books when they fought against the Bears and used their version of the Mongol doctrine. The interesting part would be what can they do differently? Rejecting the IlClan is one thing. But how do you go from there? Leave the Council of Six next? Crazy idea: leave the IS and go back toi the Homeworlds  :D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 09 June 2023, 09:21:26
Lore wise the only thing the Horses have done out of thewir own initiative are the Elemental phenotype and in the current timeline the tankwarrior and the Quadvee. Something that is still theirs only (and perhaps the Mongol doctrine at least in it's "cleansed" form) Which isn't even new they probably looked at House Steiner's wall of steel and thought "Hey can we make this wall mobile?". At least that's the vibe I got from the source books when they fought against the Bears and used their version of the Mongol doctrine. The interesting part would be what can they do differently? Rejecting the IlClan is one thing. But how do you go from there? Leave the Council of Six next? Crazy idea: leave the IS and go back toi the Homeworlds  :D
Horse actually do invent and create. It’s just since they are in the narrative B team, you usually see their inventions more prominently basically anywhere else.

Elemental phenotype
Tankwarriors
Chem lasers
HAG
Quadvees
Elemental III
Clan interface cockpit.

Hell, they even got robbed of the Stormcrow Omni at the finish line.



As to where they evolve too? I’m not sure I have a good answer. I’m rooting for them to be part of whatever coalition stands against Alaric’s inevitable reunification wars. But that isn’t really evolving. Possibly splitting the difference between ravens and bears? Start integrating local populations and skipping the “we suppressed your culture and forced you all into castes” step the bears took.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 09 June 2023, 09:42:28
Horse actually do invent and create. It’s just since they are in the narrative B team, you usually see their inventions more prominently basically anywhere else.

Elemental phenotype
Tankwarriors
Chem lasers
HAG
Quadvees
Elemental III
Clan interface cockpit.

Hell, they even got robbed of the Stormcrow Omni at the finish line.



As to where they evolve too? I’m not sure I have a good answer. I’m rooting for them to be part of whatever coalition stands against Alaric’s inevitable reunification wars. But that isn’t really evolving. Possibly splitting the difference between ravens and bears? Start integrating local populations and skipping the “we suppressed your culture and forced you all into castes” step the bears took.
Didn't they also invented the Hellbringer?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 09 June 2023, 09:56:29
Horse actually do invent and create. It’s just since they are in the narrative B team, you usually see their inventions more prominently basically anywhere else.

Elemental phenotype
Tankwarriors
Chem lasers
HAG
Quadvees
Elemental III
Clan interface cockpit.

Hell, they even got robbed of the Stormcrow Omni at the finish line.

I think the Horses also either developed the Nova (Black Hawk) or at least modified it to create the first mechanized BA.

I’ve also noticed the Horse penchant for invention and figured they would have a unit dedicated to testing weapons, tactics, and phenotypes.  It’s out of date, but this is what I was noodling on at one time:

Omicron Keshik —> https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/chh-omicron-keshik/msg1453228/#msg1453228 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/chh-omicron-keshik/msg1453228/#msg1453228)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Gaiiten on 09 June 2023, 10:09:11
The Hell`s Horses are among the most innovative Clans given how much new technology they have invented and new Mech deigns (Standard and Omni) created.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 09 June 2023, 10:29:48

If Peter Cobb is a bit of a repeat character, but he enables those two things, I’ll take it.

I maybe a minority but seeing how Peter Cobb was written I would rather see him as loremaster than Khan.  Personally any similarities between James and Peter seem to be superficial at best.

Someone does seem to want to shake up the Hells Horses especially since they seem to be building up the Oberon Confederation and we still don’t know what the IS population reaction will be.

I know Protomechs will probably be an exclusive creation but I hope we see Quadvees outside the CHH.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 09 June 2023, 11:11:15
Maybe Peter Cobb will evolve in time to be an actual character, as opposed to being a plot advice to voice all of the problems the Horses have going on. Most of the ideas he presented in the book weren't really all that innovative for the Horses (but were still somehow treated as revolutionary and "dezgra"), and I never once got a sense that he (or anyone in the book, really) had an actual vision for what they wanted the Horses to be/do. But right now, I could swap out Peter with (to use more current examples) Noritomo Helmer or Knives Out Chistu and I honestly wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Just the same ol' "our leadership sucks, we need to find ourselves again" cookie-cutter Clan archetype. It astounds me that with such an alien culture, rife with potential, the same played-out tropes continue to bob to the surface.

Ok then we get another great Ghost Bear hero loosing his personal duel against a 4 legged Mech (this time a Balius) and then becoming new Khan of the Horses? Or perhaps with a bit different flavor creating a new state out of the Horses and part of the Dominion calling it the Hell Bear Dominion?

Not this, though. BattleTech writing is already hit-or-miss on a good day without bringing legitimate cringe into the equation. :D
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 09 June 2023, 12:20:50
Horse actually do invent and create. It’s just since they are in the narrative B team, you usually see their inventions more prominently basically anywhere else.

Elemental phenotype
Tankwarriors
Chem lasers
HAG
Quadvees
Elemental III
Clan interface cockpit.
And the Hellbringer as HobbesHurlbut mentioned.
And the Nova as Natasha Kerensky mentioned.

In addition, the Nova was the first Omni to feature mechanized Elemental hardpoints, add that to the Horses's list. The Horses didn't invent OmniTech, but they were the first to apply it to vehicles. In Era Digest Golden Century the Horses were credited with the creation of Clan-spec Narc (it also mentions TAG, but I don't remember any difference between Clan and IS TAG).


Maybe Peter Cobb will evolve in time to be an actual character, as opposed to being a plot advice to voice all of the problems the Horses have going on. Most of the ideas he presented in the book weren't really all that innovative for the Horses (but were still somehow treated as revolutionary and "dezgra"), and I never once got a sense that he (or anyone in the book, really) had an actual vision for what they wanted the Horses to be/do. But right now, I could swap out Peter with (to use more current examples) Noritomo Helmer or Knives Out Chistu and I honestly wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Just the same ol' "our leadership sucks, we need to find ourselves again" cookie-cutter Clan archetype. It astounds me that with such an alien culture, rife with potential, the same played-out tropes continue to bob to the surface.
I don't see these as play-out tropes. Characters like Cobb, Helmer, and Chistu are the consequence characters that show up when the "alien culture, rife with potential" characters try something new, but don't succeed. The "return to the old ways" types are seem so boringly obvious, but you only see them when something new fails. Whenever we see a character do something new and succeed, there's no need for the "return to the old ways" types. The few exceptions are the Prinz Eugen mutineers, those who stayed behind in the Pentagon worlds during the 2nd Exodus, and in a way the Word of Blake. Each of those type of old-ways types fought to return to the old ways, but were put down.

Take a look at some of the new ways characters that succeeded. Vlad Ward negated a Trial of Absorption against his Clan, essentially formed a new Clan, and together with Marthe Pryde created the harvest trials where units from one Clan initiate a trial of absorption trying to get captured into another Clan. I can't remember the name of the Khan, but whichever Sea Fox Khan made the switch from Clan with enclaves, clusters, and galaxies into the roving band of armed merchants, Khanates, and aimags. Similarly is the Ghost Bear Khans who instead of merely claiming IS worlds ended up merging with the IS worlds to the point the Clan became only a part of the whole Rasalhague Dominion and not the rulers over their people.

Cobb has surfaced because Amirault and Lassenera failed the Clan through their plotting instead of acting and obsession over hurt feelings. In many ways they both made things worse in their stubbornness. At least Malvina's supporters can point to a long string of battlefield victories & territorial expansion. It didn't work in the end goal for the Falcons, but it got them far closer than the Horses.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 09 June 2023, 13:11:56
I don't see these as play-out tropes.

Well, I do. We've literally already seen this plotline play out for the Horses in the 3060s/3070s. The details aren't exactly the same but the same story is being told regardless.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 09 June 2023, 18:14:25
I like the mini interlude in the Land of Dreams Trilogy that has the Hell Horses Khans explaining their methods. I like that Khan Fletcher is like ‘armor corps rule!’ And then later admits ‘okay maybe this MechJock has a point and combined arms rules’.

The Horses have always been innovative and have produced a lot of things, but then have lost them for one reason or another and have been eclipsed. I hope they continue their innovations in the future.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 09 June 2023, 21:02:07
Well, I do. We've literally already seen this plotline play out for the Horses in the 3060s/3070s. The details aren't exactly the same but the same story is being told regardless.

The same could be said with every major faction “one step forward then you succeed, one step back you fail” rinse and repeat.  The Draconis Combine has changed from “we like mercenaries, to death to mercenary scum” every ten years.  The “Capellan madness” has gone up and down more often than the European Monarchs.  Every faction has some trope where we say “again” as if we are talking about the weather.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: WONC on 09 June 2023, 23:42:04
Didn't they also invented the Hellbringer?

They also created the Gnome battle armor, which is worth celebrating just for the sheer stubborn goodness of it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 09 June 2023, 23:56:29
The same could be said with every major faction “one step forward then you succeed, one step back you fail” rinse and repeat.  The Draconis Combine has changed from “we like mercenaries, to death to mercenary scum” every ten years.  The “Capellan madness” has gone up and down more often than the European Monarchs.  Every faction has some trope where we say “again” as if we are talking about the weather.

I'm not talking about a factional trope. Those I get, and most of the time I'm okay with them (just not a fan of straight-up stupid pills being taken). I'm talking about pretty much (it's not a carbon-copy, I get that) retelling the story of one Cobb with another. Besides that, we've seen this kind of "the Clan's lost its way and needs someone to lead them back to their roots" thing play out more recently with characters like Noritomo Helmer and Stephanie Chistu, so it gets a little redundant and same-y.

I want to see more for the Horses than retelling a story. I think that's the only thing besides the weird lower caste thing that I ultimately didn't enjoy: the Horses do desperately need a new path, and this book tells me over and over again that it's gonna be Peter and his writings and his influence that leads the way, but we aren't seeing what that path is going to be. That's the missing ingredient for me, and I'm saying this as someone who despite this nitpicking REALLY enjoyed the book.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 10 June 2023, 07:46:07
They also created the Gnome battle armor, which is worth celebrating just for the sheer stubborn goodness of it.
And the Rhino Battle Armor that proceeded the Gnome.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 10 June 2023, 10:05:16
I do realize that when the same enemies are fighting at the same border, it’s gonna start to feel repetitive, but the FS/DC border really, really feels like I’ve seen this before. It’s not inherently bad as it kind of channels some old 4SW vibes and that may be the goal.

Big thing for me with the Horses is I want to see a couple things:
A) I want to see them do something, anything, of their own initiative. Most of their lore feels like it’s either “here’s another awesome thing they made that proliferated and other groups use more than they do,” or “and then the horses were another clan’s willing minions”
B) I want to see them evolve. EoT: Honor is right that they’ve been pretty stagnant.

If Peter Cobb is a bit of a repeat character, but he enables those two things, I’ll take it.

More like 1SW vibes.

Peter Cobb is a chance for the Horses to actually become great, and he's not a repeat of James Cobb. James led the Clan to survival in a chaotic time, but Peter can lead it to new heights in a time of opportunity.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 10 June 2023, 10:09:45
Peter Cobb, like every other character, has the potential of being able to do anything the writers want him to do. The problem is that, after an entire book revolving around him, we haven't even gotten a hint as to what that might be. Which might be by design, because TPTB might still be in the process of figuring that out. Which begs the question: where do the Horses go from here?

They're pretty clearly not planning to walk back their rejection of Alaric's Star League, they're in absolutely no shape to even think about getting buck with the RasDom even with all of its problems, and the book seems to indicate that they'll be focusing on rebuilding and expanding, so the only thing I can think of is that they'll inevitably return to the Hinterlands to finish what they started, or maybe get more involved in the Barrens. There's no much else for them to do.

I wish we were given a chance to see the Horses grappling with the fact that there's an ilClan and a Clan-led Star League coming to pass (which is basically prophecy fulfillment for the Clans) and they're not involved with it. Why is this not creating more internal conflicts within the ranks like what we saw in the RasDom? Shouldn't all of this be a bigger deal to them than what we've seen so far?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 10 June 2023, 17:33:58

I wish we were given a chance to see the Horses grappling with the fact that there's an ilClan and a Clan-led Star League coming to pass (which is basically prophecy fulfillment for the Clans) and they're not involved with it. Why is this not creating more internal conflicts within the ranks like what we saw in the RasDom? Shouldn't all of this be a bigger deal to them than what we've seen so far?

The Horses tried to challenge Alaric and although we saw through Peters eyes what happened the “official story” probably centres around Alaric snubbing the Khans (in turn the entire CHH).  The Ghost Bears recognized Alaric and when asked to join the new Star League they said it had to be discussed.  For reasons only known (so far) to Alaric he openly insulted the Ghost Dominion.  There were no spin doctors to say who was directly was at fault and a lot of people sought someone to blame.

In addition the CHH also invaded former Falcon holdings (see Operation Stampede) and like the events in Dominion Divided proved a successful campaign can unify any faction.

In the end it may be a big deal but I see any future conflict may centre around the Periphery since (to my knowledge) no faction in the Tamar region has any wish to engage the CHH as of 3150.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 10 June 2023, 18:39:41
The Horses tried to challenge Alaric and although we saw through Peters eyes what happened the “official story” probably centres around Alaric snubbing the Khans (in turn the entire CHH).  The Ghost Bears recognized Alaric and when asked to join the new Star League they said it had to be discussed.  For reasons only known (so far) to Alaric he openly insulted the Ghost Dominion.  There were no spin doctors to say who was directly was at fault and a lot of people sought someone to blame.

Not the case, actually. This book has Fulk Lassanerra directly stating that it was Gottfried Amirault that refused to acknowledge Alaric as ilKhan in front of the entire Clan Council. It was laid at his feet as a condemnation of his leadership (among a lot of other things, lol).

Quote
In addition the CHH also invaded former Falcon holdings (see Operation Stampede) and like the events in Dominion Divided proved a successful campaign can unify any faction.

Not the case, either. Operation Stampede had middling results at best, and some really embarrassing losses for the Horses. Another charge that Fulk added to the list during the Council meeting. It seems that getting rid of Gottfried has been more unifying for the Horses than anything, but Fulk's not looking too much better yet.

Quote
In the end it may be a big deal but I see any future conflict may centre around the Periphery since (to my knowledge) no faction in the Tamar region has any wish to engage the CHH as of 3150.

It is a big deal. It's the biggest deal. A Clan just won Terra, has been acknowledged as the ilClan by its peers (except for the Horses, and that's apparently only because of Gottfriend), and has declared to the Inner Sphere that they're finally restoring the true Star League. This is as close to an equivalent of the Second Coming from the Clan sociological perspective as could possibly happen, the entire reason the Clans even exist in the first place... and we haven't gotten to see the Horses really acknowledge that outside of Peter lecturing Gottfried about it (sidenote: you know your Khan's got to go when he doesn't have you in a Circle of Equals for that, the Loremaster had to send him out of the room, lol).

Maybe we'll get more in the future, but I can only speak to what's out there now. I'd like to be optimistic here though and think something big is in the works now that we have an ilClan and a Star League that needs building, because I've noticed a lot of cliffhangers coming out of the post-ilClan material (like the RasDom's random sneak attack on the Combine, the FWL attack on the Wolf Empire, etc), and it almost feels like we're in the setup phase of whatever's coming next.

I hope that's where we're at with the Horses, because it's been a pretty disjointed journey for them for a while now (there's been, what, three line developers and a change of ownership since the Horses' Dark Age story began?), and I feel like that's causing things to get lost by the wayside, like the Horses' good relations with their lower castes that set them apart from their peers. I'd like to really see something great come out of all of this for them as they enter this bold new era.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 10 June 2023, 19:41:10

It is a big deal. It's the biggest deal. A Clan just won Terra, has been acknowledged as the ilClan by its peers (except for the Horses, and that's apparently only because of Gottfriend), and has declared to the Inner Sphere that they're finally restoring the true Star League. This is as close to an equivalent of the Second Coming from the Clan sociological perspective as could possibly happen, the entire reason the Clans even exist in the first place... and we haven't gotten to see the Horses really acknowledge that.
I misspoke I meant that if there is a conflict between the CHH and the Periphery Pirates it may not be a big deal compared to what else is going on.  Even after a hundred years no major faction has permitted the sales of mechs to any of the Barren States.  Last I heard there was (at most) 3 clusters of tanks, around 1 mixed regiment (at best), and whatever the Red Hunter managed to grab while headhunting.

On the whole acknowledgement I believe some have accepted that the Wolves are now the IKhan but with the lack of a HPG and distance more are on the wait and see.  In my head I have one saying that applies to Battletech victories “you have now claimed it, now can you hold it.”
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 12 June 2023, 10:48:39

It is a big deal. It's the biggest deal. A Clan just won Terra, has been acknowledged as the ilClan by its peers (except for the Horses, and that's apparently only because of Gottfriend), and has declared to the Inner Sphere that they're finally restoring the true Star League. This is as close to an equivalent of the Second Coming from the Clan sociological perspective as could possibly happen, the entire reason the Clans even exist in the first place... and we haven't gotten to see the Horses really acknowledge that outside of Peter lecturing Gottfried about it (sidenote: you know your Khan's got to go when he doesn't have you in a Circle of Equals for that, the Loremaster had to send him out of the room, lol).

Maybe we'll get more in the future, but I can only speak to what's out there now. I'd like to be optimistic here though and think something big is in the works now that we have an ilClan and a Star League that needs building, because I've noticed a lot of cliffhangers coming out of the post-ilClan material (like the RasDom's random sneak attack on the Combine, the FWL attack on the Wolf Empire, etc), and it almost feels like we're in the setup phase of whatever's coming next.

I hope that's where we're at with the Horses, because it's been a pretty disjointed journey for them for a while now (there's been, what, three line developers and a change of ownership since the Horses' Dark Age story began?), and I feel like that's causing things to get lost by the wayside, like the Horses' good relations with their lower castes that set them apart from their peers. I'd like to really see something great come out of all of this for them as they enter this bold new era.

An interesting point. For Clan culture Alaric's remark to then Kahn Gottfried was correct "A real warriors seizes the chance not begs for it" Which is funny considering how the Wolves got handed the keys to the Fortress and then invited the Falcons to weaken the Republic forces. There might be something more deeply rooted ion the Horses: their hatred for the Wolves. Remember Vlad Ward played the Horses (and payed a bigger prize then he thought of) and now his descendant (well as far as the Horses know) has captured Terra. Maybe that is what really stings the Horses and also leads to their unified "Screw you" to the Ilkhan. And if they have known what Alaric did to the Bears they might be thinking of keeping them at arms length and do their own thing (after all we have seen how Alaric has treated some of his supposed allies and this might be the deciding factor. Rather be the master of your own fate then become a pawn of someone who likes to screw everyone over)
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Shin_Fenris on 12 June 2023, 12:53:33
For Clan culture Alaric's remark to then Kahn Gottfried was correct "A real warriors seizes the chance not begs for it" Which is funny considering how the Wolves got handed the keys to the Fortress and then invited the Falcons to weaken the Republic forces.

That's not funny - that's further reinforcing Alaric's statement. He didn't beg Stone for the keys to the kingdom (and had no idea how his scientists came to their "solution" to penetrate the wall), he seized the opportunity the universe provided him, then invited the Falcons to do the same. Not like he requested that Malvina to come and soften up the Republic for him; he knew she'd come regardless.

I don't know how the future looks for the Horses but I'm really looking forward to the inevitable conflicts involving them and the "new" Star League.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Orwell84 on 13 June 2023, 06:14:20
And if they have known what Alaric did to the Bears they might be thinking of keeping them at arms length and do their own thing (after all we have seen how Alaric has treated some of his supposed allies and this might be the deciding factor. Rather be the master of your own fate then become a pawn of someone who likes to screw everyone over)

A fair point. My own suspicion is that Alaric doesn't want any Clan in the Star League capable of challenging him through sheer numbers alone. Hence his openly disrespecting the Khans of one such Clan for being too slow, possibly hoping the Horses will fight each other over the issue, and stirring up civil strife with the now-biggest Clan of all when the close-run plebiscite gave him an excuse.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 13 June 2023, 06:21:26
A fair point. My own suspicion is that Alaric doesn't want any Clan in the Star League capable of challenging him through sheer numbers alone. Hence his openly disrespecting the Khans of one such Clan for being too slow, possibly hoping the Horses will fight each other over the issue, and stirring up civil strife with the now-biggest Clan of all when the close-run plebiscite gave him an excuse.

Tbf Alaric is doing what the Camerons did: weaken the members so that the Hegemony stands on top. In this case let the Wolves stand on top. The problem is though that the Wolves don't have the might of the old Hegemony. No real technological advantage or military advantage. Yes they have Terra but only that (and it's protective walls have a very limited life span left). If for example the Horses were serious about showing Alaric what's what they might have stampeded into the Wolf Empire or even the recent Republic conquests.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: trboturtle on 13 June 2023, 07:45:04
Tbf Alaric is doing what the Camerons did: weaken the members so that the Hegemony stands on top. In this case let the Wolves stand on top. The problem is though that the Wolves don't have the might of the old Hegemony. No real technological advantage or military advantage. Yes they have Terra but only that (and it's protective walls have a very limited life span left). If for example the Horses were serious about showing Alaric what's what they might have stampeded into the Wolf Empire or even the recent Republic conquests.

The Horse went after the Falcon worlds first because they were easier to attack and they're still angry at being used by Malvina and the Falcons. Going after the Wolf Empire worlds would have been more difficult, as they would have to hook around the Ghost Bears turf to get at the Wolf worlds. While The Horses' khans are pissed, they don't have the forces to bull-rush past the Bears and grab up the lightly defended worlds.

Craig
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Orwell84 on 13 June 2023, 08:23:21
The Horse went after the Falcon worlds first because they were easier to attack and they're still angry at being used by Malvina and the Falcons. Going after the Wolf Empire worlds would have been more difficult, as they would have to hook around the Ghost Bears turf to get at the Wolf worlds. While The Horses' khans are pissed, they don't have the forces to bull-rush past the Bears and grab up the lightly defended worlds.

Craig

Indeed, and the nearest Wolf held systems are a quarter of the way across the Sphere. Trying to repeat the Wolf migration of '37 might actually be easier for the Horses, what with being less entwined with their 'native' populace, and the Falcons or Lyrans couldn't stop them at that point. But supposing they do overrun the Wolf Empire or split it with the FWL - they've given up an established OZ with compliant subjects for a new and more exposed one, with recently conquered worlds claimed by two large nations, and restive populations. Plus the whole raison d'etre for the Wolf migration in the first place has just been accomplished.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 13 June 2023, 10:26:14
That's not funny - that's further reinforcing Alaric's statement. He didn't beg Stone for the keys to the kingdom (and had no idea how his scientists came to their "solution" to penetrate the wall), he seized the opportunity the universe provided him, then invited the Falcons to do the same. Not like he requested that Malvina to come and soften up the Republic for him; he knew she'd come regardless.

Uh….

He was invited by Stone, with the goal to faces wolves alone. That the scientists had the secret handed to them should hav e been tons of red flags. The ending of HotW and one of its few good scenes is Stone explaining how Alaric didn’t really earn his way to Terra and that the RotS tilted things in favor of tue Wolves once falcons arrived.

When Malvina arrives, they immediately agreed to not shoot each other so they could help soften up the Republic.

For that scene, the Horse Khans were in the wrong given the knowledge they had. Given the knowledge we have now, they were actually right. No clan earned their way to Terra and they all were invited. Not that Gottfried wasn’t being a childish fool, but he was accidentally correct
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 13 June 2023, 13:58:12
The Horse went after the Falcon worlds first because they were easier to attack and they're still angry at being used by Malvina and the Falcons. Going after the Wolf Empire worlds would have been more difficult, as they would have to hook around the Ghost Bears turf to get at the Wolf worlds. While The Horses' khans are pissed, they don't have the forces to bull-rush past the Bears and grab up the lightly defended worlds.

Craig

I often forget the map of the IS and how far out there the Horses are. My idea might only have worked if they had moved down the Falcon zone all the way down to Terra right next to the Bears. And considering how many worlds there are that would have been way too much. Gobbling up worlds in the abandoned Falcon OZ is the better idea then trying to rip into the crumbling Wolf Empire
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: trboturtle on 13 June 2023, 14:22:05
I often forget the map of the IS and how far out there the Horses are. My idea might only have worked if they had moved down the Falcon zone all the way down to Terra right next to the Bears. And considering how many worlds there are that would have been way too much. Gobbling up worlds in the abandoned Falcon OZ is the better idea then trying to rip into the crumbling Wolf Empire

The Horses have a much smaller touman than most of the other IS Clans -- 40 clusters and three WarShips. Much smaller than either the Wolves or Falcons Pre-Terra. Hitting the Wolf worlds would have left them more exposed than hitting the Falcon worlds.

Craig
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 13 June 2023, 15:18:55
Not to mention, the Horses had already been working up plans to hit the Falcons. All it took was some fine tuning and then launching the attacks.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 13 June 2023, 15:59:59
The Horses have a much smaller touman than most of the other IS Clans -- 40 clusters and three WarShips. Much smaller than either the Wolves or Falcons Pre-Terra. Hitting the Wolf worlds would have left them more exposed than hitting the Falcon worlds.

Craig

That puts their ground forces above Ravens, Foxes, Cats, and several great houses. Really only behind RasDom, pre Terra Wolves, pre Terra Falcons, and CapCon.

Of which… they are now larger than all but CapCon, and I think CCAF will take some losses in ilKEO
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 14 June 2023, 03:17:00
What's ilKEO?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 June 2023, 03:18:52
IlKhan's Eyes Only, a future sourcebook.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Shin_Fenris on 14 June 2023, 05:10:23
Uh….

He was invited by Stone, with the goal to faces wolves alone. That the scientists had the secret handed to them should hav e been tons of red flags. The ending of HotW and one of its few good scenes is Stone explaining how Alaric didn’t really earn his way to Terra and that the RotS tilted things in favor of tue Wolves once falcons arrived.

When Malvina arrives, they immediately agreed to not shoot each other so they could help soften up the Republic.

For that scene, the Horse Khans were in the wrong given the knowledge they had. Given the knowledge we have now, they were actually right. No clan earned their way to Terra and they all were invited. Not that Gottfried wasn’t being a childish fool, but he was accidentally correct

I'm not sure I'm following your logic in-universe. Do -we- outside of the universe, with meta knowledge, know all of this? Absolutely. Does Alaric know any of this prior to the last scene of HotW? No.

Did Stone "invite" the Wolves? Not in the sense of "hey, Alaric, wanna come to Terra and duke it out?" Whether -you- think it's a red flag that the Scientist Caste "suddenly" had the answer or not is irrelevant; from an in-universe perspective, -every- power that knows about the Wall has spent literal years looking for ways around it. Neither Alaric nor any warrior in a position of authority knew the Scientists had the answer "given" to them; as far as they were aware, the Scientists unlocked the secret themselves and I saw nothing in-universe that'd have suggested anyone was like "oh, hey, weird, someone just left this data here for us, that's kinda weird."

Did Malvina and Alaric agree to focus on getting the RotS out of the way before fighting? Absolutely. But did Alaric say "hey, Malvina, wanna come to Terra 'cause I can't do it without you?" No. He knew she'd jump at the chance, it's why she was quick to agree to his terms. Only by beating another Clan on Terra was the ilKhanship going to mean anything to anyone. Had he just strolled in, killed everyone, and declared himself the winner, he for sure would have had the other Clans coming for him sooner rather than later.

Your last section invalidates any in-universe dispute with my original statement - "Given the knowledge WE (emphasis mine) have now..." We, the readers and players, know the behind the scenes manipulations going on but outside of a small handful of in-universe characters, they don't have the same degree of omniscience, so were the Horses correct? For sure. Does Alaric know the Horses are correct? Undoubtedly. Do the Horses know the Horses are correct? Not a chance lmao. Which is why I'm looking forward to seeing what they do next and where they go from here with their rejection of the ilKhan.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 14 June 2023, 05:35:36
That puts their ground forces above Ravens, Foxes, Cats, and several great houses. Really only behind RasDom, pre Terra Wolves, pre Terra Falcons, and CapCon.

Of which… they are now larger than all but CapCon, and I think CCAF will take some losses in ilKEO

The concap already lost some regiments. 2-3 to the Marlette decption (one of the few good uses of the wall) then the damage done on New Syrtis and I think at least another two for their intelligence raid on Terra.

The Horses should have at least the freshest troops available as they haven't seen much recnet combat except their aborted attack on sudeten and some trials with the Bears
But as the Ilclan book stated the horses are having logistic issues due to stress put on their Jumpship fleet
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 14 June 2023, 06:34:13
IlKhan's Eyes Only, a future sourcebook.
I believe it was supposed to be the last book of the Tamar Rising, Empire Alone, Dominions Divided series as well as the overall starting point for the ilClan era.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 15 June 2023, 02:37:09
IlKhan's Eyes Only, a future sourcebook.

Thanks

I believe it was supposed to be the last book of the Tamar Rising, Empire Alone, Dominions Divided series as well as the overall starting point for the ilClan era.

Any rough ETA on this book?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 15 June 2023, 08:12:17
I'm not sure I'm following your logic in-universe. Do -we- outside of the universe, with meta knowledge, know all of this? Absolutely. Does Alaric know any of this prior to the last scene of HotW? No.

Did Stone "invite" the Wolves? Not in the sense of "hey, Alaric, wanna come to Terra and duke it out?" Whether -you- think it's a red flag that the Scientist Caste "suddenly" had the answer or not is irrelevant; from an in-universe perspective, -every- power that knows about the Wall has spent literal years looking for ways around it. Neither Alaric nor any warrior in a position of authority knew the Scientists had the answer "given" to them; as far as they were aware, the Scientists unlocked the secret themselves and I saw nothing in-universe that'd have suggested anyone was like "oh, hey, weird, someone just left this data here for us, that's kinda weird."

Did Malvina and Alaric agree to focus on getting the RotS out of the way before fighting? Absolutely. But did Alaric say "hey, Malvina, wanna come to Terra 'cause I can't do it without you?" No. He knew she'd jump at the chance, it's why she was quick to agree to his terms. Only by beating another Clan on Terra was the ilKhanship going to mean anything to anyone. Had he just strolled in, killed everyone, and declared himself the winner, he for sure would have had the other Clans coming for him sooner rather than later.

Your last section invalidates any in-universe dispute with my original statement - "Given the knowledge WE (emphasis mine) have now..." We, the readers and players, know the behind the scenes manipulations going on but outside of a small handful of in-universe characters, they don't have the same degree of omniscience, so were the Horses correct? For sure. Does Alaric know the Horses are correct? Undoubtedly. Do the Horses know the Horses are correct? Not a chance lmao. Which is why I'm looking forward to seeing what they do next and where they go from here with their rejection of the ilKhan.

From Children of Kerensky, Alaric’s own inner thoughts:
“Someone has handed us the key to the Fortress door. Why would anyone do that? And who are they?”
Earlier in that scene, a scientist caste comments that the scientists were fully cognizant that they were handed the keys. In a file literally called “Keys to the Kingdom.” And they also pointed it that the complete lack of a trail explaining how it got there meant it was a professional who left it. There is zero room to pretend Alaric thought he and his clan earned his way to Terra.

Alaric knew he was invited. From day 1. Only later did he know it was straight from Stone.

Then later Alaric literally says he’s inviting the Falcons.

That doesn’t excuse the Horses khans. But Alaric was lying through his teeth in that scene.



Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Metallgewitter on 15 June 2023, 08:24:36
From Children of Kerensky, Alaric’s own inner thoughts:
“Someone has handed us the key to the Fortress door. Why would anyone do that? And who are they?”
Earlier in that scene, a scientist caste comments that the scientists were fully cognizant that they were handed the keys. In a file literally called “Keys to the Kingdom.” And they also pointed it that the complete lack of a trail explaining how it got there meant it was a professional who left it. There is zero room to pretend Alaric thought he and his clan earned his way to Terra.

Alaric knew he was invited. From day 1. Only later did he know it was straight from Stone.

Then later Alaric literally says he’s inviting the Falcons.

That doesn’t excuse the Horses khans. But Alaric was lying through his teeth in that scene.

I expect that this particular part will be adressed in the coming Ilkhans eyes only. I suspect that Tucker is blanketing Terra with everything he has gotten from Stone and this was part of it. And while the Clan Watch denies it Alaric has to know how damaging these claims really are. Heck if it was really delivered without any trace just imagine if THIS knowledge alone propagates through the IS and IS clans. It would fuel the accusations of the Horses and plant doubt in the other Clans.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 15 June 2023, 08:41:51
I expect that this particular part will be adressed in the coming Ilkhans eyes only. I suspect that Tucker is blanketing Terra with everything he has gotten from Stone and this was part of it. And while the Clan Watch denies it Alaric has to know how damaging these claims really are. Heck if it was really delivered without any trace just imagine if THIS knowledge alone propagates through the IS and IS clans. It would fuel the accusations of the Horses and plant doubt in the other Clans.

I would like to see the “dishonorable” parts of Alaric’s win brought to light as part of clan league shenanigans.

Though I’m curious how much that’ll affect the horses if Alaric’s lies at that specific moment come to light. The one most embarrassed (Gottfried) is already dead. I guess maybe Fulk or Fulk’s eventual successor uses it as an excuse?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 15 June 2023, 09:37:59
Thanks

Any rough ETA on this book?
Beats me, Cubby would be the one to ask, up in General Discussion in the upcoming releases thread. And I'm just guessing on the contents based on what hasn't been covered and what I would put in it. I don't have any hand in writing that one.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 15 June 2023, 12:09:02
Beats me, Cubby would be the one to ask, up in General Discussion in the upcoming releases thread. And I'm just guessing on the contents based on what hasn't been covered and what I would put in it. I don't have any hand in writing that one.

I’ve asked a couple of times but no real answer.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 16 June 2023, 07:25:05
Yeah I know the feeling. While the authors may not be working on any Kickstarter stuff, it seems like overall a bunch of things have been slowed in production while KS things are being worked on as well.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: ArkRoyalRavager on 16 June 2023, 08:01:13
Beats me, Cubby would be the one to ask, up in General Discussion in the upcoming releases thread. And I'm just guessing on the contents based on what hasn't been covered and what I would put in it. I don't have any hand in writing that one.

Thank you wantec.

Hope it advances the story much more
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 16 June 2023, 09:35:18
Thank you wantec.

Hope it advances the story much more

It should advance Terra about 12 months past our latest glimpse. I refuse to believe a lot of clan shenanigans in Terra don’t happen in that year
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 16 June 2023, 09:48:33
Yeah I know the feeling. While the authors may not be working on any Kickstarter stuff, it seems like overall a bunch of things have been slowed in production while KS things are being worked on as well.

I mean… 7 million pledged…. A lot of stretch goals unlocked to now work on lol
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: wantec on 16 June 2023, 16:59:41
I mean… 7 million pledged…. A lot of stretch goals unlocked to now work on lol
I totally get it, but I'm just anxious to get the rest of the story for that post ilClan Trial era. We don't really know what's going on with any of the 3 clans on Terra (Wolves, Falcons, Jaguars). We've only gotten a few bits and pieces of what's up with the Ravens and Capellans. Not to mention it felt like the Lyrans got skipped. Sure a few former-Lyrans got covered in Tamar Rising. And there were a few mentions in Empire Alone of the border region there, but it felt unfinished. The updates in ilClan only covered up to March 3151, where as the other 3 books cover up to June 3152.

Just more stuff I can't wait to see. I have lots of questions about the Terran Falcons, the Jaguars, and Ravens in this new era.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: JAMES_PRYDE on 20 June 2023, 08:49:08
Just more stuff I can't wait to see. I have lots of questions about the Terran Falcons, the Jaguars, and Ravens in this new era.

"Know your enemy"  8)

hahah, half way through "Elements of Treason: Honour", quick question, is it just that one book that is about you bad ass ponies 8), or are all three part of your stable talks. Or just little snippets of ilClans stuff all through and bits and pieces ?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 20 June 2023, 09:03:05
"Know your enemy"  8)

hahah, half way through "Elements of Treason: Honour", quick question, is it just that one book that is about you bad ass ponies 8), or are all three part of your stable talks. Or just little snippets of ilClans stuff all through and bits and pieces ?

Each Elements of Treason covers one of the major factions mentioned in Tamar Rising.  The three factions so far is the Vesper Marches, the (newly resurrected) Tamar Pact, and the Clan Hells Horses.  Question of Survival covers the Clan Jade Falcon and Ghost Bear Dominion before Operation Stampede.  We also have The Price of Duty and Mercenary’s Honor if you are a Grey Death Legion (resurrected faction) fan.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 06 August 2023, 18:38:37
Each Elements of Treason covers one of the major factions mentioned in Tamar Rising.  The three factions so far is the Vesper Marches, the (newly resurrected) Tamar Pact, and the Clan Hells Horses.  Question of Survival covers the Clan Jade Falcon and Ghost Bear Dominion before Operation Stampede.  We also have The Price of Duty and Mercenary’s Honor if you are a Grey Death Legion (resurrected faction) fan.

While I felt the new horses novel was so so I love the new focus on the horses. I also really like how it put over malvina has a truly abhorrent villain even in death
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 09 September 2023, 17:55:53
Trothkin,

How goes your affairs?

Any news on your Trials and such?

Recently I got into a small campaign with two friends involving the Golden Age of Clans.

I Horse, one friend Bear and the other Wolf, his kid sister watched wanting to try out the green chicken. We let her play a Star vs. our Clusters.

Not fair, but hey she's six. Simple math and level 1 rules. We even let her attack when we had our backs turned. Any damages we got was played as if they magically appeared, like pre-existing conditions. Also when we fired back it was as if secondary or trinary attacks, representing harder to hit numbers.

She was free to attack anyone of us, as long as she had range and heat management, we said 0 heat was excellent choice.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: DOC_Agren on 09 September 2023, 22:46:37
so TT did she score any neat hits?

and always have enjoyed the kids and weird tactics that they come up.  [jump on to lvl 4 hill, and then fire both the PPC and LRM10 from the griffin at Long range at my Clint, next thing I knew I was headless with a dead pilot.]
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 09 September 2023, 23:50:49
She took a "Fatman" Atlas C, a TimberWolf Prime, two Griffin IIC and a pair of Bandit (IS) hovertanks, double As. We haven't given here infantry yet, but soon we'll see... More likely a Full Star so she can use them... 2 Points Jump PBI and three of BA.

Little things first...

But yeah, Conner, our Wolf Commander got an UAC/20:up his ass, that almost wasted him, she gleefully tried to hit him as much as possible... Kept running around and away from her...

I got some LRM damage earlier from her... She pouted when one of her Griffins died, but we told her the pilot was ok and you should rescue them with your tanks. If you ever seen a kid on Christmas, or remember that feeling, you'd know what I mean...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: DOC_Agren on 12 September 2023, 12:39:10
Thumbs up
please keep us in the loop on her skill growth
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 21 September 2023, 17:37:51
She hates losing FatMan... But loved the idea of Swarming.

Took out Conner's Timby with two Swarms of Toad! Needed eights and rolled ten and eleven.

Did a happy dance to celebrate the occasion.

Jenny is a ristar in Clan Pony Bear, she'll be ready for ToP to become a Star Captain soon. Her Codex is strong.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Tyler Jorgensson on 22 September 2023, 21:11:27
She hates losing FatMan... But loved the idea of Swarming.

Took out Conner's Timby with two Swarms of Toad! Needed eights and rolled ten and eleven.

Did a happy dance to celebrate the occasion.

Jenny is a ristar in Clan Pony Bear, she'll be ready for ToP to become a Star Captain soon. Her Codex is strong.

TT

Teaching her the combined Horse/ Bear ways of the mid 3070’s….. I’ll allow it. We need more Jake Kabrinski’s.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 23 September 2023, 12:23:19
Well she loves ponies and wears her Care Bear shirts everywhere...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 24 September 2023, 13:58:38
She hates losing FatMan... But loved the idea of Swarming.

Took out Conner's Timby with two Swarms of Toad! Needed eights and rolled ten and eleven.

Did a happy dance to celebrate the occasion.

Jenny is a ristar in Clan Pony Bear, she'll be ready for ToP to become a Star Captain soon. Her Codex is strong.

TT

That’s really cute! Thanks for sharing
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Precentor Scorpio on 03 November 2023, 07:08:37
What would a Hells Horses Cluster look like in around 3055. 
Alpha - Two stars of omnis and one elemental  (10 omnis - 25 elementals)
Beta - Two stars of omnis and one elemental   (10 omnis - 25 elementals)
Gamma - three novas of omni-mechs and elementals  (15 omnis - 75 elementals)
Delta - Three aerospace stars
Epsilon - Three Vehicle Stars and three Conventional infantry - 30 vehicles - 15 points of infantry points (25 infantry/point)
Or would reduce Gamma and Epsilon from three novas to two novas?

Thank you


Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Church14 on 03 November 2023, 07:24:14
What would a Hells Horses Cluster look like in around 3055. 
Alpha - Two stars of omnis and one elemental  (10 omnis - 25 elementals)
Beta - Two stars of omnis and one elemental   (10 omnis - 25 elementals)
Gamma - three novas of omni-mechs and elementals  (15 omnis - 75 elementals)
Delta - Three aerospace stars
Epsilon - Three Vehicle Stars and three Conventional infantry - 30 vehicles - 15 points of infantry points (25 infantry/point)
Or would reduce Gamma and Epsilon from three novas to two novas?

Thank you

I would leave as is. Roughly 30 mechs, tanks, and ASF. Then about 15 points jump infantry and 15 BA looks right.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 03 November 2023, 17:03:34
I'd resolve that to have Alpha as a Binary w/ the Command Star a Nova.
Beta as the same, Binary w/ Command Nova Star.
Gamma as a Trinary w/ a Nova Command w/ a Binary of Omni
Delta being a Binary Aero.
Epsilon of vehicles : Binary w/ Command Nova w/ Binary of
PBI Infantry and an Artillery Nova w/ Fast Recon.

Specifically :

Alpha 10 Omni, 25 Elementals
Beta 10 Omni, 25 Elementals
Gamma 15 Omni, 25 Elementals
Delta 20 Aero
Epsilon 20 Vehicles, 10 Artillery, 10 Points Foot Infantry,  5 Points of Fast Recon

By having 10 Points of PBI in the Nova Command Star, which is weird, the Indra can deposit 250 troopers while making lightning strikes against the enemy.

I know... Fielded such a force, broke them down to Squad level..


Glorious Urban fight too...

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 12 November 2023, 06:28:02
Can't believe I never noticed this before...but has anyone else noticed that the Lola III-class Black Knight disappears between FMs 3085 and 3145?
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 12 November 2023, 11:12:51
Can't believe I never noticed this before...but has anyone else noticed that the Lola III-class Black Knight disappears between FMs 3085 and 3145?

The Steel Shield also disappeared. I'm assuming they were lost in some conflict or another with their neighbors, or the Horses simply couldn't afford to maintain them (especially with Star's End not being an option after 3080, and HH-1 not necessarily having the ability to maintain WarShips that we know of).
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 12 November 2023, 12:12:12
Ro-roh Raggy...

We're missing a Potemkin and a Lola III?

Lola III, I can see due to action, but a major asset like a Potemkin? Something major has happened.

It's, after all, a huge asset to transport twenty -five collars in a single jump. You know it'll have a major Aero escort and a dedicated Mech contingency assigned to it for Trials.

Last details I've found was Black Knight at Nouveaux Paris against the Adders and Steel Shield against the Ice Hellions in '72.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 12 November 2023, 14:59:50
The Steel Shield also disappeared. I'm assuming they were lost in some conflict or another with their neighbors, or the Horses simply couldn't afford to maintain them (especially with Star's End not being an option after 3080, and HH-1 not necessarily having the ability to maintain WarShips that we know of).

Given the broader trend across the Clans of that era doing the same, I think it's a safe bet that the Steel Shield was traded to the Sea Foxes and is now one of their ArcShips.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Kojak on 12 November 2023, 15:16:54
In fact, surveying the potential candidates, it seems there's only one: the Voidswimmer. I don't speak from any behind-the-scenes knowledge on this point, but I'd be willing to bet a whole lotta Sea-bills that the Steel Shield became the Voidswimmer.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: tassa_kay on 12 November 2023, 17:41:04
In fact, surveying the potential candidates, it seems there's only one: the Voidswimmer. I don't speak from any behind-the-scenes knowledge on this point, but I'd be willing to bet a whole lotta Sea-bills that the Steel Shield became the Voidswimmer.

It certainly makes sense; the Foxes have the infrastructure to maintain it, plus what did the Horses really need it for once they were settled in? That said, I'd be interested to know what the Horses got for it.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 12 November 2023, 18:48:03
Preferred status in future trades for X amount of time?

A one-time deal with no questions asked? We'll Transport anything for you, once.

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: CJC070 on 12 November 2023, 19:15:47
They may have traded it for smaller jumpships.  I think several sourcebooks have alluded to the Hells Horses having a fairly significant jumpship fleet.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Davion Loyalist on 20 January 2024, 00:51:47
I thought the loyalists here might enjoy knowing that I won the LVO Alpha Strike tournament with Clan Hell's Horses. All glory to combined arms and plasma cannons.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 20 January 2024, 11:28:17
I thought the loyalists here might enjoy knowing that I won the LVO Alpha Strike tournament with Clan Hell's Horses. All glory to combined arms and plasma cannons.

Congrats!!
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Davion Loyalist on 21 January 2024, 03:00:15
Thank you.
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: truetanker on 21 January 2024, 06:05:52
Should edit your Avatar to say Ristar preceded by the award, naming the Unit under your picture.

So:

AS winner, CHH, Ristar

TT
Title: Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
Post by: Davion Loyalist on 23 January 2024, 00:47:42
Here is my write up on the list/event if it is of interest:

https://www.reddit.com/r/battletech/comments/19dhavp/playing_with_fire_winning_with_clan_hells_horses/