Author Topic: CHAOS Campaign with Battleforce[ANSWERED]  (Read 568 times)

Zematus737

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CHAOS Campaign with Battleforce[ANSWERED]
« on: 06 May 2024, 16:04:28 »
I tried to play with the numbers for the Base Force Size Modifier, but I can't seem to get anything realistic in terms of a reasonable budget for anything at the size that Battleforce would require.

The example given on some of the BFSM of 5 with B tech would be the following:  to convert 100 Warchest Points, you would multiply 100wp by the BFSM, multiplied again by the tech rating of B as 1.5, giving you 750 Support Points to play with.  750sp translate to 7,500,000 C-bills.

It's just not enough if you follow the base steps for a larger force of say a Battalion.  36 divided by 4 (inner sphere) would give you a BFSM of 9.  9x100wp=900sp/9,000,000 C-bills.  At best, with D tech rating, you would get 90 million for the full warchest conversion.  Not enough for even 2 Medium Mech companies.  You can forget about Dropship squadrons to taxi stuff around with things this tight.

Again, for a Regiment of about 106 units divided by the 4 for the Inner Sphere organizational Lance composition would give you a BFSM of 27.  Netting you about 27,000,000 for the conversion of each 100.  270,000,000 for the whole warchest amount.  I'm not about to figure that one just yet. 

Needless to say, I was wondering if multiplying the final conversion by the same factor of most Battleforce conversions of x3, would bring it to a working budget.  So, back to the Battalion level.  Multiplying the 9m per 100 points conversion by three times would leave you with 27m -- or about 270 million all together for the full 1000 Warchest reserve point total.  I think this is manageable, but I would like anyone else to run the numbers and see if a campaign based on C-bills would work in BF with this tweek.  There is a Faction Specific rundown of mech list file out there that has all the Cbill costs that may help shave time from having to MUL or Record Sheet hunt each entry.
« Last Edit: 17 June 2024, 13:12:14 by Zematus737 »

Zematus737

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Re: CHAOS Campaign with Battleforce
« Reply #1 on: 06 May 2024, 16:11:53 »
Or, on the other hand, are Battalion formations supposed to be comprised of 1 or 2 mech companies with a mishmash of support vehicles, Aero and infantry?  You might possibly be able to squeeze a diverse battalion together with several different things.  Still scratching my head about this one.  I like the Chaos campaign SP cost tables and would really like to shape it around a BF short campaign scenario.

Lanceman

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Re: CHAOS Campaign with Battleforce
« Reply #2 on: 08 May 2024, 07:30:52 »
Part of it might be CCs assumption of whatever your full unit size is, you're actually running the next size down in games. So if your unit is a battalion, you're actually sending companies out on missions etc. With BF/SBF you're probably actually utilizing the whole unit, exposing yourself to more cost between tracks.

Additionally, I think CC is weakest when you go all the way from SP -> C-Bill conversion. It bumps up against costs not really changing at any point in the game's timeline and there's *lots* of machines that are worth considerably more in C-Bills than what they are in SPs. And then this just compounds with unit size again.
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Zematus737

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Re: CHAOS Campaign with Battleforce
« Reply #3 on: 08 May 2024, 14:54:33 »
That's too bad, because C-bills make record keeping a lot easier and give you more freedom with units, ammo, crews and modifications in equipment.  Whereas SP are restricted by the rates that CGL has determined and the types of units available. But if that's the case, maybe the Chaos campaign begun with a Regimental budget could get the battalion out and leave funds for other questions that can be answered as the results unfold, possibly not confined to a single planet.  There is just no information out there on BF that it seems my efforts are possibly pioneering even for very old rules.  I'll share my progress in some way and hopefully this will help others.  I can't handle the flat SP rate for mechs that are entirely different and have substantially more impact on range and their armor rates that SP is not factoring in to just end up choosing juggernauts for effect.  I appreciate the input and, God willing, will soon invest more time into how and what to use Cbills on and what to use SP for, such as repairs and ammo.  Giving non-ENE units probably 10 rounds in BF/SBF before requiring reloads.
« Last Edit: 08 May 2024, 14:59:11 by Zematus737 »

Zematus737

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Re: CHAOS Campaign with Battleforce
« Reply #4 on: 09 May 2024, 13:20:47 »

Additionally, I think CC is weakest when you go all the way from SP -> C-Bill conversion. It bumps up against costs not really changing at any point in the game's timeline

As for economic adjustments.  Details for that can be found in the Field Manuals, usually.  3145 sees the cbill drop in value by half according to era report 3145, pg.193.  It's good that the values remain flat so you can make adjustments according to such details.  It's just lamentable that Record Sheets have the c-bill cost section blank.  If only the MUL print PDF CAT35ML01A v1.0 had the C-bill information noted it would have been nice.  It could have fit.
« Last Edit: 09 May 2024, 13:34:27 by Zematus737 »

Paul

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Re: CHAOS Campaign with Battleforce
« Reply #5 on: 17 May 2024, 10:45:57 »
CBills are a horribly broken system, and the SP to CBill conversion is just a simple attempt to give people who still like to use them something to work with.

But by no means is it balanced or even viable, especially since any of the many flaws in the costing system amplify the larger a unit gets.

Quote
to convert 100 Warchest Points

Why 100?
base system, you start with 1,000.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

Daryk

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Re: CHAOS Campaign with Battleforce
« Reply #6 on: 17 May 2024, 17:54:39 »
That makes it sound like something TPTB can fix... ;)

Zematus737

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Re: CHAOS Campaign with Battleforce
« Reply #7 on: 17 May 2024, 18:32:42 »
CBills are a horribly broken system, and the SP to CBill conversion is just a simple attempt to give people who still like to use them something to work with.

But by no means is it balanced or even viable, especially since any of the many flaws in the costing system amplify the larger a unit gets.

Why 100?
base system, you start with 1,000.

The 100 is only a fractional conversion to give an example, as many of the examples of conversions in the Chaos Campaigns use this same number.  Granted, I could convert half the warchest if I wanted to, but I was just trying to give an example.  The warchest does indeed have 1,000, but how much you convert is always, I assume, up to the player trying to restructure a portion of their Force.
I like the C-bill system.  A lot of the higher technologies are better represented by their higher cost and varying availability.  I could very well just assume that I'm given a Regiment amount of points while working with the Battalion, and in that way the x3 would still apply, as the scale rises by the same usually across all Inner Sphere forces up to the Regimental level and even beyond.  Three Lances in a normal Company, three Companies in a Battalion, three Battalion in a Regiment, etc.  Granted, your ceiling rises the higher the technology, but my little brain can only handle attempting this with baby steps with Succession Wars era tech for now.  Even if that gives me access to massive starfleets... The Prospect of which, contrary to what you may think, fill me with as much excitement as dread in trying to incorporate varying tech levels and so many other abilities.

I haven't really been in a rush to figure if it is even viable.  The lack of C-bill notes on most of the general BV/PV lists have deflated my enthusiasm and forced me to fish for that information piece-meal.  The amount of time in front of the screens costs me dearly, so I take this project a step further by and by.

Nevertheless, I'm still excited.  The amount of content for Battletech at the regimental level is astonishing and Battlefoce is an untapped potential for almost ALL the content found in source books.  I don't HAVE to convert to C-bill and will most likely stick to BV divided by 100, as recommended in Battleforce 2.  It gives me more access to things that have not been converted to Alpha Strike.  It also gives me more to play with, as I feel PV is bloated to cater to Alpha Strike Elements working independently.  No one would ever split or detach Elements at that level in BF with Command counters in use.
« Last Edit: 17 May 2024, 18:34:20 by Zematus737 »

Zematus737

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Re: CHAOS Campaign with Battleforce
« Reply #8 on: 23 May 2024, 20:39:36 »

Why 100?

It looks like the 100 is an intentional limitation, based on what I reread on page 14-15 of the Total Chaos booklet.  I may have missed it if it was in the Succession Wars version.  You can only convert 100 WP's per month, requiring skipping tracks to be able to do larger conversions when necessary.

The good news is that the "starting balance of WP is used for only purchasing the ability to play tracks and make other Warchest purchses, not to purchase the player's beginning forces."  This is wonderful, since I intend to use the Chaos system within the ISaW frame for mini-campaigns.  I don't think a conversion between RP's in ISaW and SP's will be necessary now, since the force you are using has no bearing on the beginning value.  It's the tracks, repairs, purchases and other uses that will tap the warchest.  All in all, this is even better in the end.