Overly exploited rules, weapons, and equipment?

[Black_Knyght]

A discussion arose yesterday amongst our player group about what CBT rules, weaponry, or equipment (including armor, etc...) often get overly exploited by opportunistic players, with very differing thoughts on the subject.

So, out of curiosity, I'll ask here: What do YOU feel are all-too-often overly exploited CBT rules, weaponry, or equipment (including armor, etc...)?

[Sartris]

define exploited

[Black_Knyght]

ex·ploit [exploit] VERB

* use a (situation or person) in an unfair or selfish way to gain an advantage.
       
    "the company was exploiting a legal loophole to achieve their goals."


Or, as one of our players put it, "consistently over-utilizing a specific or poorly-written rule or combination to gain an extreme edge".

Not sure about how that's worded, but it wasn't MY words. Just what was written on the paper. The example given was things like Pulse Lasers & TCs, 4x LRM-5's in place of an LRM-20, etc.

[Alsadius]

This is probably my recent aero focus, but four-corner WarShip designs. Put your AMS and anti-fighter weapons on nose/aft/broadsides in immense numbers, because the fire control weight is trivial and that covers every hex around you. Then put your capital weapons fore-left/fore-right/aft-left/aft-right, which gives you some nice heavy broadsides with no fire control mass. It's both really mass-efficient and extremely effective in combat terms, and it totally obsoletes any other weapon layout.

[Caedis Animus]

Pulse Lasers. Full stop.

[Sartris]

Pulse Lasers. Full stop.

historically this is certainly true. most other stuff is just annoying... or just people being mad that their preferred strategy has a weakness.

[Apocal]

Well, the game itself pushes players in that direction, so I'm not sure people making use of pulses are actually exploiting anything.

[Firesprocket]

The example given was things like Pulse Lasers & TCs, 4x LRM-5's in place of an LRM-20, etc.

Pulse lasers, or more specifically, I would say Clan Pulse lasers are exploited because they simply just make the best sense to use over most every other weapon in the game because they give a huge boost in lowering TN while project out to long and medium range while not having any real drawbacks.  The counters to get hit are speed, terrain, and armor in that order.  The Pulse laser made what was nigh and impossible shot to hit possible and average shots significantly better.  At the time of its introduction the armor foil, glazed, and later reflective armor didn't exist.  Even now there isn't enough designs out there that feature it to make it an effective counter.

Breaking down large LRM racks to smaller ones isn't all that much of as an exploit.  You are exchanging once bigger damaging cluster for several smaller ones with more chances to hit on target.  In most cases though you are producing extra heat.  That being said you can obfuscate LOS with well placed smoke fields and the more you can put out there with smaller launchers, the better.  I will guarantee you 100% of the time that if you let me use smoke munitions I will use them for mobile cover.  Like a lot of mobile cover.

TAG guided munitions and artillary in all their forms also can be exploited as well.  With conventional Arty it is all up to whether or not the controlling player is competent.   With various LG munitions it's more a matter or just rolling out enough TAG that you eventually bag something that is will feel the burn of Arrow IV, SG rounds, or Copperheads

[Alsadius]

Pulse Lasers. Full stop.

The IS ones are perfectly balanced. The Clan ones are filthy. Give the Clan pulses the same range brackets as the 3025 lasers, and they might be less gross, but the Clan LPL is high on my list of most overpowered pieces of equipment in the game.

[marauder648]

The IS ones are perfectly balanced. The Clan ones are filthy. Give the Clan pulses the same range brackets as the 3025 lasers, and they might be less gross, but the Clan LPL is high on my list of most overpowered pieces of equipment in the game.

And it gets worse with a Targetting computer :p And yeah agree they should have the range of the 3025 lasers, still longer ranged than IS pulse lasers but not grossly so.

[Sartris]

Well, the game itself pushes players in that direction, so I'm not sure people making use of pulses are actually exploiting anything.

I mean everything in this thread falls under that umbrella, right? Unless someone has some examples of pandemic cheating based on blatant misinterpretation of the rules. This is a discussion about the spirit of fair play (and what constitutes it) rather than a binary case of can I / can’t I under the rules.

This is more like if clan pulse lasers + TC (especially when you could make aimed shots) were in magic the gathering, would they be banned for competitive tournament balance?

The pulse issue’s reach tentacles into other aspects of the game and informs the customs debate as well - the near ubiquitous stock only policy embraced by veteran players wasn’t born out of campaign type tweaks but at least on no small part custom clan pulse monsters. It was and remains the poster child of clan cheese. The targeting advantage in combination with a lack of a balancing mechanic left a lot of scars.

And it gets worse with a Targetting computer :p And yeah agree they should have the range of the 3025 lasers, still longer ranged than IS pulse lasers but not grossly so.

Hindsight makes us wish we could be the angel on the devs’ shoulder in the late 80s whispering “please have mercy on the poor spheroids”

[Corky]

Pulse lasers dont work with targeting computer though.

[NeonKnight]

Pulse lasers dont work with targeting computer though.

yes they do.

You may be thinking of this one stipulation (BattleMech manual, page 114):

For targeting computer-aided aimed shots against either type of target (mobile or immobile), Pulse type weapons cannot be used, and the head may not be targeted.

This rule is for Aimed Shots only.

The very first line of the Targeting Computer entry is:

Game Rules: A targeting computer improves the accuracy of all weapons of the DB, DE, or P types on that ’Mech.

And Page 97 defines those terms:

P: Pulse. Pulse weapons using a targeting computer receive the computer’s Target Number bonus, but not when making any kind of Aimed Shot (see Targeting Computer, p. 114).

[grimlock1]

Any time to start stringing together multiple bonuses is getting into exploit territory.

VSPs+Interface Cockpit+VDNI.  Or Interface Cockpit+VDNI+AES+Quad.

I don't worry about CLPS+Null sig because the heat load is non-trivial, and there are other penalties that make it so you probably don't want to run like that too long.

That said, if you move your Firemoth behind a level 2 hill and use your overhead arms quirk to shoot at me while Adder B is slowly picking its way through rough hexes interspersed with Thunder mines I've spent the last 6 turns spreading around?    Well played.  Well played, but once I get around get a line of sight... :beatdown:

[dgorsman]

Picking Mech designs with multiple LRM-5 or -10, and spamming the board with Thunder-augmented.  Possible in MM, but on the table top reason to just pack up and leave.

[Apocal]

I mean everything in this thread falls under that umbrella, right? Unless someone has some examples of pandemic cheating based on blatant misinterpretation of the rules. This is a discussion about the spirit of fair play (and what constitutes it) rather than a binary case of can I / can’t I under the rules.

Not so much a rules issue but a game mechanics one; running and firing leads to being punished on your to-hit numbers (+2). Jumping even moreso (+3), right? A new player starts off under these strictures and they pretty well suck. Throw in a bit of range (+2 or +4), a smattering of terrain (+1) and your target's movement modifier (+2 just to be nice) and you're looking at a stack of reasons any one shot isn't going to hit. Then go to the location table.

Just game mechanics-wise, taking a -2 bonus is a godsend to players like that under such circumstances. It can be, in fact, a welcome relief from the sea of 9s and 10s to hit, every single turn. It is promoted as tech progression, a superior weapon, much like the LB-X autocannons are over the buck autocannons. Everything a new (or newish) player "learns" about BT -- maximize your to-hit chanes, minimize the other guy's -- tells them this is what they are supposed to be doing.

I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it is my own experience learning to play on the table after coming from MW2/HBSTech/MWO.

[Luciora]

I agree with this.   Sure, its allowed by the rules, but its no fun for the opposing player if the majority of the time they lose to the same min-maxed design every single time.  That's not somebody I would want to game with for long.

Any time to start stringing together multiple bonuses is getting into exploit territory.

VSPs+Interface Cockpit+VDNI.  Or Interface Cockpit+VDNI+AES+Quad.

I don't worry about CLPS+Null sig because the heat load is non-trivial, and there are other penalties that make it so you probably don't want to run like that too long.

That said, if you move your Firemoth behind a level 2 hill and use your overhead arms quirk to shoot at me while Adder B is slowly picking its way through rough hexes interspersed with Thunder mines I've spent the last 6 turns spreading around?    Well played.  Well played, but once I get around get a line of sight... :beatdown:

[Sartris]

Not so much a rules issue but a game mechanics one; running and firing leads to being punished on your to-hit numbers (+2). Jumping even moreso (+3), right? A new player starts off under these strictures and they pretty well suck. Throw in a bit of range (+2 or +4), a smattering of terrain (+1) and your target's movement modifier (+2 just to be nice) and you're looking at a stack of reasons any one shot isn't going to hit. Then go to the location table.

Just game mechanics-wise, taking a -2 bonus is a godsend to players like that under such circumstances. It can be, in fact, a welcome relief from the sea of 9s and 10s to hit, every single turn. It is promoted as tech progression, a superior weapon, much like the LB-X autocannons are over the buck autocannons. Everything a new (or newish) player "learns" about BT -- maximize your to-hit chanes, minimize the other guy's -- tells them this is what they are supposed to be doing.

I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it is my own experience learning to play on the table after coming from MW2/HBSTech/MWO.

rules vs game mechanics (which are just a more foundational layer of rules) seem like an unnecessary dichotomy for the purpose of this discussion since both push you in the same direction. One is more obvious than the other but the endpoint is the same - the unintended consequence of making the game unfun when overexploited

[Easy]

It's possible that the biggest exploit was when the Clans became player factions. For inter-Clan barbarity, the Clan Homeworlds are a big arena, contained, but in the context of the Clans vs. the Inner Sphere, its a wash. The way to beat technological advantages like that, that you cannot quickly match or exceed is 'war by other means', economic warfare, political operations on occupied worlds, etc.

This is *almost always* out of the players hands, particularly in a non-RPG tabletop campaign.

The Clan system of government and culture would not exist, but by author fiat. You can point to North Korea, for example, as a nation that logically should not exist, and yet they do, but they have nothing like the mysterious, free inherited capital that the Clans have. Their system forbids it, in fact.

You just sort of have to throw reason out the window in order to rationalize the continuing power, popularity and influence of the Clans. Pretty much, everything they have is by fiat. Take away the unfair guns and you're left with a failing, lazy, belligerent pre-historic culture living on borrowed time.

Maybe somebody will counter-argue that Nicholas Kerensky and his followers are not degenerate, and we can have that discussion, but this is barely in-scope of OP as it is. I don't suggest having it on this thread.

The Clans were introduced as The Bad Guys, and only a kind of relativistic fetish has kept them around as anything other than a nihilistic threat to humanity. Making them into legitimate player factions with equal standing to the Great Houses was the biggest BattleTech exploitation of all time.

I can believe in compelling Clan personalities who do the right thing (Simon Nova Cat is my anti-Phalen, for instance), in spite of their system. I would make a very poor Clan role-player. Either too barbaric for civil company, or an outcast among my own people. TBH, I would be among the first to tell Phalen Kell to hit the road, in favor of a humble House troop to protect the ARDC, but Morgan loves his son. That, I understand, but I think the liability of it is understated and lives in the shadow of the FedCom Civil War.

But all those Clan gunz...

[Brakiel]

I see pulse lasers got the nod already, so I'll also throw out LBX spam. I actually don't mind the 2 and 20 - the 2 obviously has so few potential hits it's not a big deal, and the 20 is relatively short ranged so you hopefully don't have to deal with it too often per game. But the 5 and especially the 10 are so annoying. Good range bands, nice weight, and plenty of clusters. Everything slams to halt if multiple LBXs need to resolve, and then you have to worry about the TACs and potential head hits.

[Sartris]

so i shouldn't run a company of Malice XPs if i want to make friends and influence people?  ???

[RifleMech]

I'm surprised LAMs weren't the first thing on the list since people exploiting the old ambiguous rules is what led to all kinds of hatred towards them.

[Sartris]

they've been dead long enough in their original form that the trauma has mostly healed

but yes, they were ridiculous in the right hands

[RifleMech]

they've been dead long enough in their original form that the trauma has mostly healed

but yes, they were ridiculous in the right hands

I still see a lot of hatred for them so I don't think the trauma has healed yet. A LAM thread was locked not too long ago. If there wasn't still hatred it wouldn't have been locked.

[garhkal]

ex·ploit [exploit] VERB

* use a (situation or person) in an unfair or selfish way to gain an advantage.
       
    "the company was exploiting a legal loophole to achieve their goals."


Or, as one of our players put it, "consistently over-utilizing a specific or poorly-written rule or combination to gain an extreme edge".

Not sure about how that's worded, but it wasn't MY words. Just what was written on the paper. The example given was things like Pulse Lasers & TCs, 4x LRM-5's in place of an LRM-20, etc.

Well, i wouldn't consider the 4-lrm 5s in place of one lrm-20, being a loophole.  OR something 'exploited'.  The Pulse + clan TC though i can see qualifing..

[Sartris]

I still see a lot of hatred for them so I don't think the trauma has healed yet. A LAM thread was locked not too long ago. If there wasn't still hatred it wouldn't have been locked.

and yet here we are and no one brought them up here until you did. very little of the stinger thread had anything to do with actual rules - it was just a dumb circular argument about canninocity and retcons.


 

[Easy]

I agree now that the early LAM rules favored them, and that this angered some players. Some of my first real tabletop games featured these struggles.

It was a rock, paper, scissors battle, not with the OpFor, but with the GM, who felt that the LAM advantage was a bit hard to swallow. Despite that, however, he allowed it, especially after I rolled spectacularly for my starting 'Mech. I needed a 12 to get my HK2, and I rolled a 12. I could have started with a Highlander, but I chose the LAM.

The first tech he gave me was a moral degenerate. Maybe he felt that was how to make me equal with the other players. The first stand up fights we had involved a lot of me scouting, flanking and trying to avoid getting one-shot killed. (Despite the movement munch the early LAMs had, they were still fragile.) I had complete inventories, locations and movement of OpFors by turn 3 or 4. We used those advantages to the max. Imagine if I had a Beagle or upgraded sensors! You can't hide, and you can't run.

Perhaps the crow(n)ing achievement was on the third or fourth session, when I went out on solo patrol, spotted a Locust and killed it with barely any damage. Then I shot off its legs, rigged the CT and head on a strong net rigging, then lifted it, AirMech mode, and carried it back to camp, the Hunter with his Kill. 

That must have been the final straw because every engagement after that included a full lance of Partisan-AC/2s, just for me, no joke. :)

I, alone, accounted for way over my BV in OpFor, just because of all the free movement, and my ability to imagine how my character would want to fight the LAM.

In the end, I acknowledge that although I was highly miffed by that ubiquitous Party lance, I did sort of push the issue, in order to make space for myself. Always trying to maximize that LAM movement utility by the rulebook.

I missed something of the spirit of the game when I just assumed that a real OpFor, facing that circumstance, might not, indeed, bring up a lance of Partisans to try and pick off that nasty LAM that was going all predator on their recon. I didn't have a really good grasp of the scope at that point. He could have killed me off with one aerofighter, but he didn't.

So, in the interest of burying the hatchet, I do admit it was an arms race and the earliest LAM rules gave them a significant head start. GMs had to do way more work to contain the LAM, and received little in return if they were not enjoying the action.

[Black_Knyght]

Well, i wouldn't consider the 4-lrm 5s in place of one lrm-20, being a loophole.  OR something 'exploited'.  The Pulse + clan TC though i can see qualifing..

As exxplained to me, the basis of 4 LRM-5s being used instead of an LRM-20 being thought of as an exploit/loophole is in the tonnage saved by doing that. You get the same number of missile for two eons less.

[Sartris]

it's not without drawbacks - heat for one. it's also more plinky with three-damage groups. if anything the worst part about it is the extra rolling required. such a setup would be much better at delivering smoke and mines, but overall it's more annoying the exploitive. if anything you just roll your eyes at the person doing it because they chose such an obvious way to try to cheese the rules with so little benefit.

[RifleMech]

and yet here we are and no one brought them up here until you did. very little of the stinger thread had anything to do with actual rules - it was just a dumb circular argument about canninocity and retcons.

Hence my surprise. The old rules caused all kinds of problems that are still effecting things today. There were ways, and still are, to counter LAMs but they still gained a lot of hatred.

Part of why it becomes a circular argument is because the hatred for LAMs has made it in universe and into the rules. Statements made about why LAMs are no longer in production just don't bare up under scrutiny. Yet there are those who insist that the statements are true.

There could have been a lot of other reasons given for why LAMs were never upgraded by 3050, a lot of reasons why LAMs went extinct so quickly after 3050, and a lot of reasons why no one but WoB built and new ones since, without giving conflicting statements.