The Capellans are not evil

[BlazingSky]

I can never tell if you're IC or not.

[HikageMaru]

The Capellan understanding of egalitarianism is that every person born in the Confederation gets the same education and the same chance to become a Citizen.  That does not mean that all people live equal lives any more than it means that every bumb in the Davion outback deserves to be as wealthy as the First Prince.  Whether you choose to earn your Citizenship or not is on you, but it was not your birth that held you back.

And that includes the servitors:

As with other castes, servitors may earn (or attempt to re-earn) their citizenship after ten years of service, and more and more servitors have done so since 3052.  The children of servitors are treated like any other Capellan child, entered into state schools and given the same citizenship requirements as the children of Capellan nobles.

Handbook: House Liao p. 116.

[Nanaki]

Was this trolling or did it have an actual point besides trying to irritate people in a rather good discussion?  Just asking.

I'd want my property back if it was stolen, regardless of how long it took.

My point is that Capellans have a very flexible view on what is 'theirs' and what is not. Given, I do like the Capellan Confederation for actually managing to resist that black hole of a sue known as Devlin Stone, but the whole 'ancestral claims' thing rubs me the wrong way, mainly because it is used for worlds the Capellans have absolutly zero ancestral claim on (the old Terran Hegemony worlds, for example).

[Baldur Mekorig]

Does part of joining the Land of Crazy Communist Stereotypes include a full frontal lobotomy? Because I like my lobes intact thanks.

 Welcome to the Confederation new citizen! I hope you enjoyed your re-education on our Citizenship camps!

[Mecha-Anchovy]

Or, they can be reworked to ensure the betterment of ALL the Capellan people -- even the disenfranchised among the Servitor caste.

And they can be further reworked, at whim.

You will forgive me that I don't trust the Chancellor.

(Yes, this applies to the other states as well. I do not automatically trust the Archon, the First Prince, or the Captain-General, and I certainly do not trust the Coordinator. Even when a house lord proves himself or herself to be an intelligent and moral leader, that does not translate to trust for his or her children.)

I'd want my property back if it was stolen, regardless of how long it took.

It seems rather odd to me to claim that the Confederation owns worlds that have been part of other nations for centuries on end, even against the will of the people of those worlds.

I have to confess as well, I find it rather odd that the Confederation continues to make claim to worlds that were ceded to the Federated Suns by the Chancellor himself in 2861. (p. 32 HB:HL.) As far as I can tell, the rule seems to be that something is Capellan property - or an 'ancestral Capellan world' - if there was ever, at any point during the last thousand years, no matter how brief, a Capellan flag flying above the government house, and that there is nothing whatsoever, not even a formal treaty signed by the Chancellor himself, that can make such a world cease to be Capellan property.

I thoroughly disagree.  I think it's disgusting that the state would enable self-serving, lazy, and violent individuals to continue to leech off the productive members of society like ticks.  It encourages vice and sloth and burdens societies best and brightest with the task of perpetually babysitting an ever-growing population of self-absorbed, arrogant, uncaring human animals with a grand sense of entitlement.

As Gracus pointed out, the servitors still exist in Capellan society. If that were truly the position you held: why not deport all of the servitors? If they are only leeches, then remove them all, or exterminate them all.

But the fact is that servitors do exist in Capellan society. They live and work in that society, in some sense contributing to it thereby, and, if you insist, 'leeching' from the 'productives'. (Whatever they are supposed to be. Talk about 'leeches' and 'productives' and so on has uncomfortably Randian overtones.) Denying them citizenship does not actually prevent this 'leech-like' behaviour. It denies them ability to contribute to society more productively, and it obviously denies them certain civil rights; but it does not actually do anything to solve the problem you described.

The community is very much self-selecting.  You choose whether or not to apply for Citizenship.  Those who become Citizens then become part of the body that sets the criteria.

Silly me. I did not realise that the Confederation was democratic.

(Er, that is sarcasm, by the way.)

I promise you that was not the argument type. It is an argument that strictly is out to break the myth the Lyrans spread that they are a bunch of people who think the universe is made only of love and peace and only fight for self defense. The reason they attack the League is because it has what they want, heavy industry, the Combine is nothing in comparison in that regard.

As I recall the old topic - yes, I lurked - severe questions were raised about the history of the League-Lyran border. At the moment, so we're clear, I am neither accepting nor denying your assertion.

I can never tell if you're IC or not.

Confederation fans are fun like that.

[Lore]

My point is that Capellans have a very flexible view on what is 'theirs' and what is not. Given, I do like the Capellan Confederation for actually managing to resist that black hole of a sue known as Devlin Stone, but the whole 'ancestral claims' thing rubs me the wrong way, mainly because it is used for worlds the Capellans have absolutly zero ancestral claim on (the old Terran Hegemony worlds, for example).

I don't often give much heed to the Capellan "ancestral claims" in my campaigns. It's more a propaganda-machine operated by the government and meant to help ensure its popularity among the hardliners.

You know, just like what most other typically human-natured governments ALWAYS tend to claim at one point or another.

[Lore]

And they can be further reworked, at whim.

Eh. I could accept that if it was merely an off-hand notion or something quickly put into place by the Chancellor.

However, the portion of text I quoted earlier notes that this particular move to ensure greater rights for the servitors, has been building for almost a decade. It's a significant step toward positive change in the greater make-up of Capellan society.

That doesn't sound all that whimsical.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I thoroughly disagree.  I think it's disgusting that the state would enable self-serving, lazy, and violent individuals to continue to leech off the productive members of society like ticks.  It encourages vice and sloth and burdens societies best and brightest with the task of perpetually babysitting an ever-growing population of self-absorbed, arrogant, uncaring human animals with a grand sense of entitlement.  At this point, however, we are really just discussing personal preferense, so there's little more to discuss.

How is recognizing people's basic human rights "leeching off society?"  If wanting people to recognize that yes, you are a person and have the same rights to free speech and expression as someone who professes the correct political ideology, then perhaps it's better to be the entitled one than someone who espouses a philosophy that would claim you need to work for the betterment of the State to prove you are human.

[MadCapellan]

I can never tell if you're IC or not.

Both.   :)

My point is that Capellans have a very flexible view on what is 'theirs' and what is not. Given, I do like the Capellan Confederation for actually managing to resist that black hole of a sue known as Devlin Stone, but the whole 'ancestral claims' thing rubs me the wrong way, mainly because it is used for worlds the Capellans have absolutly zero ancestral claim on (the old Terran Hegemony worlds, for example).

It's rare to hear that argued, but generally it is from the perspective that when the Hegemony became defunct and the Confederation became their caretaker, they became Capellan worlds from that point forward.  I don't think I'd have a problem ceding the Hegemony worlds to a region who's government I felt adequately reflected a successor to the Hegemony, but I'm not the Chancellor.

It seems rather odd to me to claim that the Confederation owns worlds that have been part of other nations for centuries on end, even against the will of the people of those worlds.

It's only odd because other nations are quitters.

I have to confess as well, I find it rather odd that the Confederation continues to make claim to worlds that were ceded to the Federated Suns by the Chancellor himself in 2861. (p. 32 HB:HL.)

Please, who doesn't lie to their enemies, particularly if it will cause them to drop their guard or loosen their grip.

As Gracus pointed out, the servitors still exist in Capellan society. If that were truly the position you held: why not deport all of the servitors?

It would cost a massive amount of money and resources.  Meanwhile, they can squat in the corner for free.

If they are only leeches, then remove them all, or exterminate them all.

Likewise, killing them all would require resources and time better spent.  Besides, there's always the chance a servitor might get it together and become a Citizen.  No reason to deny them that chance, really.

But the fact is that servitors do exist in Capellan society. They live and work in that society
, in some sense contributing to it thereby, and, if you insist, 'leeching' from the 'productives'.

If you don't give them anything, they really aren't leeching.  Just because someone lives next door do me doesn't mean they are taking anything from me, nor does it mean they are providing me with anything.  They are simply worthless neighbors, essentially. 

Denying them citizenship does not actually prevent this 'leech-like' behaviour.

The Confederation does not provide a servitor with a thin yuan.  The bullet for their head if they misbehave will cost the state less than it costs to sweep the street.  No Citizen of the Confederation is ever forced by the Confederation to pay or provide for a servitor.  If they do so of their own volition, that is their own (foolish) decision.

It denies them ability to contribute to society more productively

Hardly.  If they really cared for their society, they shouldn't need any sort of compensation to start helping it, even if they just start cleaning public phones or something.

and it obviously denies them certain civil rights

Doesn't really bother me any.  If they wanted society's help they should have contributed.  There's no free lunch in life.

but it does not actually do anything to solve the problem you described.

It most certainly does.  By refusing to coddle these miscreants, we've set the example that nothing is free.  Society simply doesn't have to put up with and provide for you.  A better society comes from those in it giving back to it.  By not wasting resources on those who don't wish to participate, we provide a better life for those that do.  It is a motivation for proper behavior and a reservation of resources for those most deserving.

[Kojak]

MadCap, you keep using the words "contributing" or "participating", but you haven't yet defined what you mean by them. What counts as "contributing" or "participating" in Capellan society? And who gets to set those definitions?

[Youngblood]

In your own words, "you have to do something to prove you'r a person."

What is a person?  Just something that wants.  Something that wants as much as it can get.

Simply existing, or existing only for oneself will never grant you everything you want.  Deep down as humans, we constantly want more of everything.  The trouble is, we can't get everything we want by ourselves.  In fact, it's common that one never finds the life he or she really wants to live before they die.  In that perspective, you haven't really achieved what your intended purpose was, and you might as well have been a rotting sack of flesh and bones for that entire century.  Just like the corpse of an elderly human that you become.

But you can still salvage some hope.  If you happen to exist in that deep green section of galaxy down there, there's one most obvious option to take to get at least MORE of what you wanted, MORE of the life that you desire to live.  The option is to prove yourself to a bunch of bullies you don't know, who may or may not let you into their awesome VIP club.  Sounds a bit foolish, right?  I hope you'll tolerate me tripping your "freak" alarm again, because I think such a predicament is -natural-.

I think working to prove yourself as someone who deserves to live is much more rewarding, more ENLIGHTENING, than lying around being ignorant of what you take for granted, being ignorant of what it feels like to be trampled upon, having no hunger to rise up to better your station.  The Confederation is a vehicle that can serve such a purpose, a mutual fund of ambition and labor and perseverance, if you will.  You work to own things, you work for your human rights, and you work to prove you exist as you want to exist.  (Thinking positively: why, as a Servitor, should you be afraid to fail to become a Citizen, when you have nothing to lose?)  How is that less respectable than muddling around with faraway concepts of "freedom" while living in societies with "basic human rights" that don't even put food on your table, let alone make you feel better about doing something for others?

who is honestly okay with not having basic human rights?

This guy I know...his main drive in life is to please others, often with disregard for himself.  And he goes quite far with it.  He enjoys most things around him, as well as things that happen to him or are done to him.  He'll play the bitch if he feels it would make others want to keep him around.  And if not...well, he'd be okay with you killing him, too.  He understands.  You can categorize that as a martyr complex or whatever all you like--his values are just firmly placed in certain concepts that just set him apart from a lot of other people.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

So you need to separate your underclass and kick them around to feel good about your State-worship, because look how much worse it would be for us if we were the ones being victimized!

I, on the other hand, contribute to my society quite nicely by being self-sufficent, paying taxes, and not breaking any laws. Any society where that isn't enough is not one that deserves to exist. The state exists at the sufferance of the people, not the other way around.

As far as your acquaintance goes, just based on what I have read, he is displaying signs of psych problems that would benefit from treatment. My condolences.

[MadCapellan]

MadCap, you keep using the words "contributing" or "participating", but you haven't yet defined what you mean by them. What counts as "contributing" or "participating" in Capellan society? And who gets to set those definitions?

Both House Liao sourcebooks spell it out pretty clearly.  Initially as a young Capellan, becoming a Citizen requires a service to the State, your community.  A simple example given would be joining the Capellan Star Scouts.  Other similar options are likely volunteering to clean streets and public buildings, caretaking local libraries, helping out at the local retirement home, producing a mural exalting the Confederation, or other such acts of merit.  All of these are extremely simple tasks I wouldn't consider beyond the capabilities of any motivated individual.

Should an individual fail to accomplish this service in their youth and be regulated to the servitor cast, all hope is not lost.  While the standards for servitors to become Citizens are often slightly more stringent, requiring several years of voluntary labor, for example, ultimately, they may attain the same Citizenship as any other Capellan.

The Ministry of Social Education is the body which determines Citizenship, a massive body which also oversees the Capellan education system, which is made up of millions of members of the Supporter & Directorship castes.  As caste leaders are elected by the membership, one can expect the standards set by such individuals to be generally well accepted by the Citizenry as a whole.

[MadCapellan]

So you need to separate your underclass and kick them around to feel good about your State-worship, because look how much worse it would be for us if we were the ones being victimized!

I think you completely missed the point.  Citizenship is about living for a higher purpose than yourself.   It isn't about looking down on servitors, it's about being more than a mere human animal.  Anyone can simply go through life looking out for no one but themselves.  It takes a higher caliber of person to look out for their community as a whole, even at their own expense.

As far as your acquaintance goes, just based on what I have read, he is displaying signs of psych problems that would benefit from treatment. My condolences.

There might have been some slight exaggeration to what my friend said about him, but I'd describe our mutual friend as having a very enlightened Buddhist or Taoist outlook about life.  Rather than go through life fighting reality constantly, he has found contentment in existence.  He exists in the place without wind, not wanting and not struggling.  I personally find him pretty inspiring.

[False Son]

Seeing as how the CapCon is based on Chinese, Russian and Korean stereotypes, some of this makes sense.  In addition to having recent Communist histories (or present) all three have had (or have) strong collectivist cultures.  Even the Republic of China, aka Taiwan is vaguely democratic but still suffers under traditional Chinese Confucianism.  Historically Russia was ruled by the Tzarist regime which had the backing of the Orthodox Church, making them an absolute monarch in every sense, putting even the kings of Europe to shame.  During the Soviet era there were dramatically more rights and privileges for Party members Boris.  There's plenty of parallels in modern North Korea to be seen in the CapCon, like the preference of distributing resources to military participants first.

Point is, it's entirely unfair to judge the CapCon in a western context.  The three primary cultures of the CapCon are very different than the European cultures that dominate the other houses.  It's their right to reject western liberalism, as they have.  The Capellan system is similar to the historical structures in place by China, Russia and North Korea, with leader-veneration being a central tenant and community oriented, strictly disciplined cultures.

[HikageMaru]

Seeing as how the CapCon is based on Chinese, Russian and Korean stereotypes, some of this makes sense.  In addition to having recent Communist histories (or present) all three have had (or have) strong collectivist cultures.  Even the Republic of China, aka Taiwan is vaguely democratic but still suffers under traditional Chinese Confucianism. 

Suffers?

Point is, it's entirely unfair to judge the CapCon in a western context.  The three primary cultures of the CapCon are very different than the European cultures that dominate the other houses.  It's their right to reject western liberalism, as they have.  The Capellan system is similar to the historical structures in place by China, Russia and North Korea, with leader-veneration being a central tenant and community oriented, strictly disciplined cultures.

Of course, a state-centered people mentality can exist in a (classically) liberal, free-market system (a la South Korea).  But Chancellor Franco Liao evidently chose not to follow this model.

[Mecha-Anchovy]

I'll make a longer reply tomorrow. Right now I would just like to comment:

Seeing as how the CapCon is based on Chinese, Russian and Korean stereotypes, some of this makes sense.

Aren't considerable portions of the Confederation of English or Scottish background? Victoria Commonality was mostly British, I think. (Mind you, I'd have to check my maps... I'm honestly not sure whether the Victoria Commonality is part of the Confederation or the Federated Suns now. ;) )

In any case, I hardly think that the bland assertion that it's a different culture excuses any and all crimes. (For the record, if the Confederation were correct, the Lyrans or League could not excuse themselves by saying 'our cultures are different'.) Complete cultural relativism very quickly becomes a meaningless position.

I admit that I also find the implication here to be vaguely offensive. Are Asian or Russian peoples inherently more tolerant of tyranny? I don't mean to get into a real world debate here, but you mention Soviet Russia and North Korea. I seem to recall large numbers of people in Soviet Russia being dissatisfied with their government; and I would certainly challenge any assertion that the culture of North Korea - whatever that is supposed to be - justifies the things the North Korean government does to its people.

It's their right to reject western liberalism, as they have.

You missed Kurita. Definitely not Western or liberal there.

Though I also question whether we should really think of the Suns, League, and Commonwealth as Western liberal states. There are some similarities, but it seems to me also some major differences and evolutions; the existence of titled aristocracies being the major one.

The Capellan system is similar to the historical structures in place by China, Russia and North Korea, with leader-veneration being a central tenant and community oriented, strictly disciplined cultures.

...I really have to say, I find that edging on offensive. Not only is it historically and culturally ignorant, it ultimately amounts to nothing less than a denial that human rights exist.

[Youngblood]

So you need to separate your underclass and kick them around to feel good about your State-worship, because look how much worse it would be for us if we were the ones being victimized!

I, on the other hand, contribute to my society quite nicely by being self-sufficent, paying taxes, and not breaking any laws. Any society where that isn't enough is not one that deserves to exist. The state exists at the sufferance of the people, not the other way around.

You completely ignored my perspective of what it means to be a human.

As for you, I feel sorry for you.  I am sorry that you don't care to step off of your little island of individualism to do just one thing that isn't ultimately self-serving.

...I really have to say, I find that edging on offensive. Not only is it historically and culturally ignorant, it ultimately amounts to nothing less than a denial that human rights exist.

I do too.  Art and religion are not stifled like in the Capellan Confederation like they have been in previous regimes of the countries False Son lists off, for one.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

If you're going to start being condescending as well, I'm done. Suffice to say, you don't know shit about me, so don't pretend you do.

[Youngblood]

Why would you jump into a thread to make snide "summarizations" of peoples' opinions if you knew people were going to get aggravated enough at you to retaliate?

Seeing as how the CapCon is based on Chinese, Russian and Korean stereotypes, some of this makes sense.  In addition to having recent Communist histories (or present) all three have had (or have) strong collectivist cultures.  Even the Republic of China, aka Taiwan is vaguely democratic but still suffers under traditional Chinese Confucianism.

Would you kindly explain why you used that word?  Also, seeing as the diversity of the Confederation is far greater, and spread out amongst a vastly larger space, how are you drawing the conclusion that this is what causes people within the Confederation's borders to buy into the social ladder of Citizenship?

Historically Russia was ruled by the Tzarist regime which had the backing of the Orthodox Church, making them an absolute monarch in every sense, putting even the kings of Europe to shame.  During the Soviet era there were dramatically more rights and privileges for Party members Boris.

See my previous post.

There's plenty of parallels in modern North Korea to be seen in the CapCon, like the preference of distributing resources to military participants first.

In a fictional universe with subtitle: A TIME OF WAR.  The Lorix Order emphasizing the janshi over other Citizens is touted as necessary because they are the ones who send themselves to die first in service to the State (AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE STATE).

Point is, it's entirely unfair to judge the CapCon in a western context.  The three primary cultures of the CapCon are very different than the European cultures that dominate the other houses.  It's their right to reject western liberalism, as they have.  The Capellan system is similar to the historical structures in place by China, Russia and North Korea, with leader-veneration being a central tenant and community oriented, strictly disciplined cultures.

I believe this is not a subject which we can observe objectively with our technology and our number of unproven psychological hypotheses....especially when given current events in various parts of the world.

[Minemech]

Why would you jump into a thread to make snide "summarizations" of peoples' opinions if you knew people were going to get aggravated enough at you to retaliate?

Would you kindly explain why you used that word?  Also, seeing as the diversity of the Confederation is far greater, and spread out amongst a vastly larger space, how are you drawing the conclusion that this is what causes people within the Confederation's borders to buy into the social ladder of Citizenship?

See my previous post.

He did not ignore it, you just assumed he would agree with you because you said something. People will have different opinions and will read things from your quotes that even you don't see, live with it. I am not being hostile, I am just saying calm down. other posters and I have agreed to disagree in the past, sometimes you must do the same. I don't hate them, or see him as having inferior intellect and they probably see it the same. I don't see you as inferior, yet I disagree vehemently like Vash with your argument.

[Banzai]

Would you kindly explain why you used that word?  Also, seeing as the diversity of the Confederation is far greater, and spread out amongst a vastly larger space, how are you drawing the conclusion that this is what causes people within the Confederation's borders to buy into the social ladder of Citizenship?

Not to speak for him, but I read that under the definition of suffer: "to undergo or experience any action, process, or condition."

[HikageMaru]

Not to speak for him, but I read that under the definition of suffer: "to undergo or experience any action, process, or condition."

"Suffer" means that, but almost always in the context of being forced or having no choice but to bear it, i.e. against one's will or wishes.  Hence, I think it's reasonable to read it in a pejorative sense.

According it Webster:

Definition of SUFFER
transitive verb
1 a: to submit to or be forced to endure <suffer martyrdom> b: to feel keenly : labor under <suffer thirst>
2: undergo, experience
3: to put up with especially as inevitable or unavoidable
4: to allow especially by reason of indifference <the eagle suffers little birds to sing — Shakespeare>

intransitive verb
1: to endure death, pain, or distress
2: to sustain loss or damage
3: to be subject to disability or handicap
— suf·fer·able adjective
— suf·fer·able·ness noun
— suf·fer·ably adverb
— suf·fer·er noun
See suffer defined for English-language learners »
See suffer defined for kids »

[False Son]

Would you kindly explain why you used that word?

This actually does require some elaboration.  First, suffer is not the optimal term, apologies to anyone offended.  The reference to Taiwan and Confucianism is based off an observation of Taiwan's legal recognition of certain Confuciusian teachings.  Women in Taiwan were previously given a legally backed lower status than men, including not being able to divorce their husbands without his concent, not having a say in naming of children, educational discrimination and a few other things.  Now granted, this has been diminished by constitutional reforms in the mid 90s (another parallel in the CapCon) but was believed, at least by the historical analysis (admittedly conducted by an American) i encountered in college to be attributed to adherence to Confuciusian, patriarchal beliefs.  It's not fair to use that as a criticism of the whole country, that's true.  The same text also infered that Confucianism made it's followers docile and submissive, which i would certainly refute.  Cold War socio political analysis has a way of demeaning everyone it touchs for the sake of easy generalizations.

But, as i said before, i believe the CapCon is based on stereotypes of China, Russia and Korea, and enough posters have said themselves that they feel they are largely negative stereotypes.

[HikageMaru]

This actually does require some elaboration.  First, suffer is not the optimal term, apologies to anyone offended.  The reference to Taiwan and Confucianism is based off an observation of Taiwan's legal recognition of certain Confuciusian teachings.  Women in Taiwan were previously given a legally backed lower status than men, including not being able to divorce their husbands without his concent, not having a say in naming of children, educational discrimination and a few other things.  Now granted, this has been diminished by constitutional reforms in the mid 90s (another parallel in the CapCon) but was believed, at least by the historical analysis (admittedly conducted by an American) i encountered in college to be attributed to adherence to Confuciusian, patriarchal beliefs.  It's not fair to use that as a criticism of the whole country, that's true.  The same text also infered that Confucianism made it's followers docile and submissive, which i would certainly refute.  Cold War socio political analysis has a way of demeaning everyone it touchs for the sake of easy generalizations.

But, as i said before, i believe the CapCon is based on stereotypes of China, Russia and Korea, and enough posters have said themselves that they feel they are largely negative stereotypes.

To this day, Confuciusian is heavily influential in all aspects of South Korean culture, but I doubt my mother would say she "suffers" under her proud culture.  But it is greatly misunderstood in Western eyes, so I can see how an Occidental would see it as such.  That's how I see the Capellan Confederation (and the discussion in this thread).  The CapCon is not evil---it is misunderstood.  And the cultural flavor present in the BT universe is what makes it so interesting as opposed to a black-and-white good-guy bad-guy mentality (Stackpole notwithstanding).

[False Son]

I've been trying to say the same thing, tripped over my tongue and brain.  I'm not really fond of the characterization of Scots and Russians being easy traitors when threatened either.  The CapCon has gotten a bad shake, as has the Combine.  I've resisted the urge to just chalk it up to racisim of the times, seeing as how things were not so good with China and the Soviet Union at the time of the writing of the original handbooks.  Sadly, Stackpole's writing doesn't do much to persuade me otherwise.

[HikageMaru]

I've been trying to say the same thing, tripped over my tongue and brain.  I'm not really fond of the characterization of Scots and Russians being easy traitors when threatened either.  The CapCon has gotten a bad shake, as has the Combine.  I've resisted the urge to just chalk it up to racisim of the times, seeing as how things were not so good with China and the Soviet Union at the time of the writing of the original handbooks.  Sadly, Stackpole's writing doesn't do much to persuade me otherwise.

Well, you know, the Combine is evil.  ;D

<ducks!>

[False Son]

That's debateable.  That they've been portrayed as the do no right, self defeating, honor bound samurai man is not.  There's alot to say they're "the bad guys" simply because only good guys are competant in the BT universe.

[Minemech]

 That means the AFFS must have been pretty evil up until the Kentares Massacre.

[oldfart3025]

Dude, the Maskirovka agent stepped outside for a cigarette.  You can stop reading off the teleprompter.

Can't smoke on duty anymore. Hell, can't even light 'em up anymore to put out on dissidents and foreign spies during interrogation. Those dumbasses at the State health ministry are whining about second hand smoke on State facilities.  ::)

Fortunately, smokeless tobacco is still allowed. I'm trying to come up with creative uses for smokeless in our little "O&A" sessions.  }:)