The Capellans are not evil

[False Son]

This is either ttrying to sell CBT as something it clearly never was, or the biggest flop in pandering to an audience ever.

[Twinkiemonkie]

After reading the Warrior Trilogy I did not have a high opinion of the Capellans.  However after reading Double-Blind, Binding Force, Threads of Ambition and Binding Force I began to look at the Capellans as less evil and more like the poor kid who got picked on and finally got to stick a knife in the bully's back.

This was the opposite order I read them in.  Which contributed to my longstanding Capellanishness.  I really couldn't reconcile the plucky underdog CC from the Loren Coleman books with the Fu Manchu CC from Stackpole books

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

This was the opposite order I read them in.  Which contributed to my longstanding Capellanishness.  I really couldn't reconcile the plucky underdog CC from the Loren Coleman books with the Fu Manchu CC from Stackpole books

I would say that the both of you were lead in the exact direction the writer of said novels wanted you to be.

[BlazingSky]

I think the Capellans are evil solely on the basis of Loren Coleman's writing. Ty Wu Non and all the other "jokey names" characters, along with the Arcade Rangers, do more than all of the other stupid pills induced events relating to the CC to piss me off. I mean the Hong Kong Cavaliers are a parody/homage that's kind of grating, but Nin-Tenh-Do or however the hell you spell it? Total crap. So to recap, the CC isn't evil because they can set fire to everyone's homes and get away with it (metaphorically speaking), but rather their flagship writer can't make names. >:(

[Minemech]

 Yeah the slaughter of Republic citizens living on Liao was all an accident. All those civilians were at fault for living on that planet anyways.

[Peacemaker]

I think the Capellans are evil solely on the basis of Loren Coleman's writing. Ty Wu Non and all the other "jokey names" characters, along with the Arcade Rangers, do more than all of the other stupid pills induced events relating to the CC to piss me off. I mean the Hong Kong Cavaliers are a parody/homage that's kind of grating, but Nin-Tenh-Do or however the hell you spell it? Total crap. So to recap, the CC isn't evil because they can set fire to everyone's homes and get away with it (metaphorically speaking), but rather their flagship writer can't make names. >:(

Many cultures in the real world have traditions of giving children weird or jokey names. I don't think it's "total crap" that the Capellans appear to have a similar custom.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/world/americas/05venez.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4609892.stm

[MadCapellan]

Yeah the slaughter of Republic citizens living on Liao was all an accident. All those civilians were at fault for living on that planet anyways.

It's called illegal squatting.  Doesn't bother me at all.  If the Republic didn't want them flambéd, they shouldn't have forcibly relocated them where they didn't belong.  If I found some strange people living in my grandparent's house, I'd likely take a weapon to them as well.

[HikageMaru]

Many cultures in the real world have traditions of giving children weird or jokey names. I don't think it's "total crap" that the Capellans appear to have a similar custom.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/world/americas/05venez.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4609892.stm

Absolutely.  You should hear some of the bizarreo names that are now becoming popular in this country....

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

It's called illegal squatting.  Doesn't bother me at all.  If the Republic didn't want them flambéd, they shouldn't have forcibly relocated them where they didn't belong.  If I found some strange people living in my grandparent's house, I'd likely take a weapon to them as well.

So, that scene where in the Dark Knight where the Joker tapes guns into those dudes hands... remember that one? Batman comes in, there's dudes in masks with guns, he takes off the mask and realizes that they're being compelled and the guns are taped to their hands.  You would shotgun blast them all after that.

You said it yourself: they were forcibly relocated. By and large the victims were forced to be there in the first place. I really expected better of you.

[MadCapellan]

So, that scene where in the Dark Knight where the Joker tapes guns into those dudes hands... remember that one? Batman comes in, there's dudes in masks with guns, he takes off the mask and realizes that they're being compelled and the guns are taped to their hands.  You would shotgun blast them all after that.

Honestly?  Probably wouldn't have bothered unmasking them.  Not worth the risk, you see. 

Do you think all those folks would have peacefully all boarded a dropship bound for New Earth?  Would the Republic have even allowed it if they would?  They weren't Capellan Citizens and they were more than likely Republic sympathizers.  That means they're targets.

In war, you kill the enemy until they're dead.  Let's not pretend that carpet bombing and A-bombs existed only to destroy military targets.  The Republic could surrender Liao, or we could kill every last one of their people on the planet, their choice.  They decided they wanted to make it hard. 

[Twinkiemonkie]

Seems I've missed a few novels in my multi-year absence from the universe.  Can anyone update me as to the state of the confederation as it were?  I've only read By Temptations and By War and I'm not sure which other ones are must-reads for Capellan sympathizers.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

No shit, they weren't Capellan citizens. They were from all over the Sphere. That was the whole point of the forced relocation, to make it hard for a popular uprising to gain momentum. They wouldn't rise up because a Kuritan doesn't care if Liao is in Capellan or Republic hands. They care if Dieron is in Combine hands but they can't do anything about that.

You did totally miss the point of the analogy, though. That relocation is forced isn't a secret. You already know these people aren't complicit and were, in fact, compelled by force. And yet, you are okay with killing them anyway.

[Twinkiemonkie]

Many cultures in the real world have traditions of giving children weird or jokey names. I don't think it's "total crap" that the Capellans appear to have a similar custom.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/world/americas/05venez.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4609892.stm

Apparently, in the Netherlands, you can only select your child's name from a list of 7000 pre-approved names.  How's that for government intrusion?  You heard it here first folks, Capellans have more freedom than the Dutch.  [rockon]

[MadCapellan]

You did totally miss the point of the analogy, though. That relocation is forced isn't a secret. You already know these people aren't complicit and were, in fact, compelled by force. And yet, you are okay with killing them anyway.

1 - Individuals killed were not Capellans and are unlikely to have held any Capellan sympathies.

2 - Individuals have experienced years of anti-Capellan propaganda, first from many of their home regions (Federated Suns, Free Worlds League, Blake Protectorate), and then from the Republic itself.  Ergo, chances that they are hostile to a potential Capellan restoration are high.

3 - They are not citizens, are unlikely to become citizens, and are a potential obstacle to the liberation of Liao.  I'd kill a servitor for blocking a ramp needed to load a dropship with needed military supplies.  Why am I going to pamper a bunch of effective servitors who are both non-Capellan and potentially hostile to me?  The Capellan Confederation Armed Forces will destroy everything that stands in the way of the proper restoration of the Capellan state.  It is their duty to the Capellan people who support them. 

If Stone thinks he can prevent the Capellan people of Liao from rising up against him by dumping a bunch of squatters on our property, then we'll burn every last one of them to cinders just to let him know how serious we really are.

If Stone didn't want them dead, he shouldn't have thrown them in a damn Lion's cage. 

[MadCapellan]

Apparently, in the Netherlands, you can only select your child's name from a list of 7000 pre-approved names.  How's that for government intrusion?  You heard it here first folks, Capellans have more freedom than the Dutch.  [rockon]

I want to say France has a similar law, actually.

[Kit deSummersville]

Apparently, in the Netherlands, you can only select your child's name from a list of 7000 pre-approved names.  How's that for government intrusion?  You heard it here first folks, Capellans have more freedom than the Dutch.  [rockon]

I think we all know Herb's feelings on the Dutch.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

1 - Individuals killed were not Capellans and are unlikely to have held any Capellan sympathies.

2 - Individuals have experienced years of anti-Capellan propaganda, first from many of their home regions (Federated Suns, Free Worlds League, Blake Protectorate), and then from the Republic itself.  Ergo, chances that they are hostile to a potential Capellan restoration are high.

3 - They are not citizens, are unlikely to become citizens, and are a potential obstacle to the liberation of Liao.  I'd kill a servitor for blocking a ramp needed to load a dropship with needed military supplies.  Why am I going to pamper a bunch of effective servitors who are both non-Capellan and potentially hostile to me?  The Capellan Confederation Armed Forces will destroy everything that stands in the way of the proper restoration of the Capellan state.  It is their duty to the Capellan people who support them. 

If Stone thinks he can prevent the Capellan people of Liao from rising up against him by dumping a bunch of squatters on our property, then we'll burn every last one of them to cinders just to let him know how serious we really are.

If Stone didn't want them dead, he shouldn't have thrown them in a damn Lion's cage.

So, only the killing of Capellan citizens is unacceptable? What happens to them when everyone else decides to treat Capellans like they do the Taurians?

[MadCapellan]

So, only the killing of Capellan citizens is unacceptable?

The responsibility of the CCAF is to protect the Capellan Confederation and her citizens by whatever means necessary.  I wouldn't expect or condone them killing other country's civilians for a lark, but if they are being used as a means to prevent the CCAF from accomplishing their mission, then yes, I approve of their killing, just as I would approve of the killing of human shields in a terrorist incident.  If you send the message that such a thing will work, it will only be used repeatedly as a means for unscrupulous individuals to circumvent the rules.  Gun them all down, and criminals will realize that's not a valid means of defense.  For bonus points, auction off the criminals property to benefit those killed by their stupid act.

[Kit deSummersville]

What if the best protection of the citizens was to get rid of the Capellan Confederation?

[Peacemaker]

What if the best protection of the citizens was to get rid of the Capellan Confederation?

How can you protect the citizens of the Capellan Confederation if there is no Capellan Confederation for them to be citizens of?

[Minemech]

 The Free Worlds League would be happy to offer its assistance. I doubt the Suns would be stingy either.

[Lore]

Do you think all those folks would have peacefully all boarded a dropship bound for New Earth?

Probably not.

Though, after the horrors of the Jihad, I would've expected the Confederation to have realised the need for more humane understanding -- and, perhaps -- cooperation with the Republic. Failing that, forced relocation is an acceptable alternative -- even if it is at the barrel of a gun. The Liao Massacre should have only been considered as the LAST alternative.

The fact remains, however, that the Confederation didn't even bother searching for more humane relocation methods. Which makes me wonder about just what the State actually learnt from its experiences in the blackest days of the Jihad.

Would the Republic have even allowed it if they would?  They weren't Capellan Citizens and they were more than likely Republic sympathizers.  That means they're targets.

Well, the Confederation forces didn't even bother searching for alternatives to slaughter. Certainly, they weren't Capellan citizens, but they're still citizens of some place or another. And with the bloodiness of the Jihad still refresh in everyone's mind, alternatives to civilian slaughter should have been considered first.

In war, you kill the enemy until they're dead.  Let's not pretend that carpet bombing and A-bombs existed only to destroy military targets.  The Republic could surrender Liao, or we could kill every last one of their people on the planet, their choice.  They decided they wanted to make it hard.

I'd say both the Republic and the Confederation were equally guilty for the Massacre of Liao. The former for failing to properly act to ensure the protection of its citizenry, and the latter for resorting to such vile methods without first considering other relocation options.

[Twinkiemonkie]

The Free Worlds League would be happy to offer its assistance. I doubt the Suns would be stingy either.

The what League? ohhhhhhhhhh

[Twinkiemonkie]

Probably not.

Though, after the horrors of the Jihad, I would've expected the Confederation to have realised the need for more humane understanding -- and, perhaps -- cooperation with the Republic. Failing that, forced relocation is an acceptable alternative -- even if it is at the barrel of a gun. The Liao Massacre should have only been considered as the LAST alternative.

The fact remains, however, that the Confederation didn't even bother searching for more humane relocation methods. Which makes me wonder about just what the State actually learnt from its experiences in the blackest days of the Jihad.

Well, the Confederation forces didn't even bother searching for alternatives to slaughter. Certainly, they weren't Capellan citizens, but they're still citizens of some place or another. And with the bloodiness of the Jihad still refresh in everyone's mind, alternatives to civilian slaughter should have been considered first.

I'd say both the Republic and the Confederation were equally guilty for the Massacre of Liao. The former for failing to properly act to ensure the protection of its citizenry, and the latter for resorting to such vile methods without first considering other relocation options.

I am not familiar with the details of the massacre, but from what I've gleaned from the posts here, it seems to be an unfortunate return of the days of pointless brutality under Romano Liao.  Capellans have an established system of dealing with conquered peoples, namely channeling them into the Servitor Caste.  It is what its there for.

[Peacemaker]

Was the Massacre of Liao even a direct attack on civilians? I was under the impression the reason so many died was because the Cappies launched a big sneak attack in a dense urban setting before the locals could evacuate and thus caused massive collateral damage.

[Lore]

I am not familiar with the details of the massacre, but from what I've gleaned from the posts here, it seems to be an unfortunate return of the days of pointless brutality under Romano Liao.  Capellans have an established system of dealing with conquered peoples, namely channeling them into the Servitor Caste.  It is what its there for.

Was the Massacre of Liao even a direct attack on civilians? I was under the impression the reason so many died was because the Cappies launched a big sneak attack in a dense urban setting before the locals could evacuate and thus caused massive collateral damage.

From Dark Age Turning Points -- Liao [pg. 5]:-

When Devlin Stone claimed Liao as part of his new Republic of the Sphere, the citizenry was torn between their Capellan heritage and the excitement of the post-Jihad victory. Though many supported Stone’s ambitions, just as many, if not more, were skeptical and wary of leaving the Confederation. Liao was a major target for the hated Resettlement Directives and Senator Melissa Allard-Liao became a vocal opponent of the policy until its repeal in 3095.
Tensions between the two sides reached a boiling point in 3111. In that year, a young RAF lieutenant named Daniel Peterson allowed a single Capellan DropShip to land on Liao. His hopes for a simple fight to resolve the internal conflict between heritage and progress were dashed when the DropShip disgorged an unexpected number of Capellan troops into the streets of the capital city of Chang-an. The resulting Liao Massacre (also called the Night of Screams) and the subsequent two years of war ultimately claimed the lives of millions of citizens, including Lieutenant Peterson’s own parents and retired Senator Allard-Liao.

[Minemech]

 The traitor, then later Paladin himself was haunted by the massacre for which he was paid a bonus by the Confederation for each civilian that was killed if I recall correctly.

[MadCapellan]

What if the best protection of the citizens was to get rid of the Capellan Confederation?

Oxymoronical.  The Citizen cannot exist without the State.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Oxymoronical.  The Citizen cannot exist without the State.

The concept of citizenship can't. The citizens can. It's the State that cannot exist without people, not the other way around.

[Youngblood]

The concept of citizenship can't. The citizens can. It's the State that cannot exist without people, not the other way around.

What good is citizenship if there are no state-given benefits for being one?  Non-Capellan citizenship is just being part of an extended clique.