Author Topic: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless  (Read 176911 times)

kato

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #390 on: 23 January 2016, 07:14:17 »
NASA used to have a study for a probe back in the 90s that would go to 600 AU in about 45 years, at 66.5 km/s final speed. It would have employed a 200m solar sail of 1 micron thickness (which is only slightly beyond current technology) and a 0.25 AU solar flyby; final speed after the flyby would have already been reached at Jupiter orbital distance, when the sail would have been dropped. Useful payload for an intended range of back then up to 400 AU was planned to be around 25 kg powered by an RTG delivering 20W at that time; for comparison New Horizon's instrument package is 30 kg requiring 30W.

Proposal was later revised to use nuclear-powered electric propulsion and a Jupiter flyby instead since NEP became hip at the time - which would have needed 80 years for 600 AU, at 37.5 km/s final speed.

In both cases the problem would have likely laid in the RTGs, not in the propulsion. Given the flight times to get some useful output after that time you'd probably need Am-241 RTGs, which are considerably heavier than what NASA is generally budgeting.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2016, 07:16:02 by kato »

Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #391 on: 23 January 2016, 08:54:11 »
Anykne else besides me who cant wait for them to invent a Gas Core NTR?
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #392 on: 23 January 2016, 10:44:57 »
From what I've read a liquid-core seems a lot more realistic. It's still pretty beefy.

But for decades-long flights I'm fairly sure electric rockets will beat any kind of thermal. After all to get to 100 km/s in 10 years you need all of 0.00032 m/s2 acceleration.

kato

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #393 on: 23 January 2016, 14:50:55 »
Nah, you run out of Xenon to push out the back way before that.

Wrangler

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #394 on: 23 January 2016, 15:24:21 »
I think the nuclear rockets properly only good technology we currently have attainable to be able to get anywhere in the solar system.  I keep wishing the old idea/theory of being able collect fuel as vehicle travels in space.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #395 on: 24 January 2016, 05:32:42 »
Nah, you run out of Xenon to push out the back way before that.
That's just a question of how much Xenon you're dragging along. For a probe like that you're probably looking at something that looks like a balloon, so a mass ratio of 5 or more shouldn't be out of the question.

With an exhaust velocity of 100+ kph (VASIMR or advanced ion) you get a delta-v of 160+ kps with a mass ratio of 5. Given that even .00003 Gs is pushing it with an electric rocket you'll probably have half your fuel left after 10 years!

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #396 on: 24 January 2016, 18:53:39 »
With an exhaust velocity of 100+ kph (VASIMR or advanced ion) you get a delta-v of 160+ kps with a mass ratio of 5. Given that even .00003 Gs is pushing it with an electric rocket you'll probably have half your fuel left after 10 years!
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Wrangler

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #397 on: 24 January 2016, 21:32:25 »
I wish SpaceX would get break with those return landing rockets boosters.  The landing leg failing, was such sad moment see for them.
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rebs

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #398 on: 24 January 2016, 23:35:22 »
LANDING!

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #399 on: 24 January 2016, 23:38:25 »
I wish SpaceX would get break with those return landing rockets boosters.  The landing leg failing, was such sad moment see for them.

No kidding. On the upside, the articles about that taught me their name for the landing barge. ;D
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BirdofPrey

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #400 on: 25 January 2016, 00:17:34 »
There's two actually:
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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #401 on: 25 January 2016, 11:39:39 »
Shades of Banks. I fully approve. O0
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rebs

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #402 on: 26 January 2016, 21:01:22 »
Reading-wise, this thread points me in new directions for launch all the time.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #403 on: 27 January 2016, 14:27:59 »
Scientific American's winter special super-issue has some fantastic articles on the holography theory and just what might have been prior to our universe's existence - with some conceptual basis to back it up.
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rebs

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #404 on: 27 January 2016, 22:20:36 »
Always cool to keep up with.  But whatever was before the Big Bang scares me, quite frankly.  I don't want it coming back, whatever it is.  ;D

Here's a link to a newer von Karman lecture on the Juno mission.  And for those who already know this lecture's points by heart, the uploader has pretty much all of the others of this excellent series, going a decade or longer.  Quite the trove of knowledge, and I think they are legit, as the videos are not filmed on potatoes from bigger potatoes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEjamMmXVfs&list=PL6vzpF_OEV8ko2IaScmwl6Kk32s9tIBvY&index=2
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #405 on: 27 January 2016, 23:22:06 »
Found thisminteresting.  Not sure how much more to say, but a planet orbiting out as far as our Oort Cloud is a bit odd.  Couldnjt have formed there?  Or did it move out?
http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-the-largest-known-solar-system
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #406 on: 27 January 2016, 23:33:56 »
Always cool to keep up with.  But whatever was before the Big Bang scares me, quite frankly.  I don't want it coming back, whatever it is. 
The theory's that it's still there.  Cosmic holography, examining the theory that we're a three-spatial-dimension "hologram" on the surface of a four-spatial-dimensional event horizon, and the singularity within is our actual universe.  It potentially fits a few explanations of why we see such an even spread of the universe, potentially gives some clues to dark matter and dark energy, and why gravity is so weird, and why cosmic inflation and whatnot happened the way it did.

Noodle on that one for a bit; I'll see you in the nut hatch.
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rebs

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #407 on: 27 January 2016, 23:47:41 »
The theory's that it's still there.  Cosmic holography, examining the theory that we're a three-spatial-dimension "hologram" on the surface of a four-spatial-dimensional event horizon, and the singularity within is our actual universe.  It potentially fits a few explanations of why we see such an even spread of the universe, potentially gives some clues to dark matter and dark energy, and why gravity is so weird, and why cosmic inflation and whatnot happened the way it did.

Noodle on that one for a bit; I'll see you in the nut hatch.

I'll find the article and paper my new room with prints.  After they let me have tape.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #408 on: 28 January 2016, 12:42:43 »
Found thisminteresting.  Not sure how much more to say, but a planet orbiting out as far as our Oort Cloud is a bit odd.  Couldnjt have formed there?  Or did it move out?
http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-the-largest-known-solar-system
Got me thinking about the possible new (large) planet in our system. I read a couple of articles a while ago about system formation and how we might have had one more "inner" planet early on

IIRC the theory is that it got ejected by Jupiter, but also forced Jupiter into a wider orbit (and thus probably saving the Earth).

kato

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #409 on: 28 January 2016, 13:28:39 »
That thing out there, if it exists, is currently calculated to be far too big for that. Neptune-sized, more or less.

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #410 on: 28 January 2016, 13:46:10 »
What I would find pretty cool is if Planet Nine in Outer Space turns out to be a rogue world captured by Sol's gravity.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #411 on: 28 January 2016, 14:07:47 »
What I would find pretty cool is if Planet Nine in Outer Space turns out to be a rogue world captured by Sol's gravity.
Explains why Eros was so freaked out about exploding solar photons.  600AU out, they're pretty rare and cherished things.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #412 on: 28 January 2016, 17:43:02 »
That thing out there, if it exists, is currently calculated to be far too big for that. Neptune-sized, more or less.
Do you have any links? I can't find anything on a quick search, but IIRC the "missing" planet was supposed to be pretty large?

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #413 on: 28 January 2016, 17:51:09 »
Got me thinking about the possible new (large) planet in our system. I read a couple of articles a while ago about system formation and how we might have had one more "inner" planet early on

IIRC the theory is that it got ejected by Jupiter, but also forced Jupiter into a wider orbit (and thus probably saving the Earth).

You know, I read an article a while ago where modelers wgo tried to recreate the solar system's formation in a computer couldn't  do it with just the 4 giant outer planets.  It only worked when you added a fifth that gets flung out.  Now, this article postulated it ws completely ejected, but it would give some credence to the idea something big needs to be out there
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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #414 on: 28 January 2016, 21:13:47 »
Wasn't the pre-history Inner planet named Vulcan?
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rebs

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #415 on: 28 January 2016, 22:41:37 »
There was yet another ancient (truly) object in the inner solar system...  It collided with the Earth and we're fairly certain it led to the formation of our moon.  I forget what that object has been named, off the top of my head.

My mind is pretty open to all the possibilities.  Planet Nine probably did not originate in the inner sol system.  But I would believe another object or two were once here, and possibly got tossed or even "accreted" to Jupiter's irresistible pull and became part of it's bulk.

Whether Planet 9 formed here or is an ejectee that we've fostered, we'll find out.
« Last Edit: 28 January 2016, 23:00:17 by rebs »
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #416 on: 28 January 2016, 22:46:40 »
The planet that collided with earth was Theia
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rebs

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #417 on: 28 January 2016, 22:59:46 »
Thanks for the refresher.  O0
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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #418 on: 29 January 2016, 00:05:52 »
Wasn't the pre-history Inner planet named Vulcan?

Vulcan was the name given to a theorised planet inside the orbit of Mercury.

Newtonian physics had predicted the locations and existance of Neptune and Uranus based on orbital perturbations. Mercury's orbit failed to meet Newtonian calculations, therefore it seemed reasonable at the time that a planet might exist with an orbit inside Mercury's. Because of it's supposed proximity to the sun, it'd have been very hard to see. Some people claimed to have observed it in transits of the Sun, but other people looking at the same time saw nothing.

Turns out you need Einsteinan physics to accurately predict Mercury's orbit - the Sun distorts space-time that close to it in ways simple gravitation can't explain. So no need for Vulcan. Until the 1960s, when some hack needed a name for the homeplanet for his diabolically-inspired supporting character in some sort of a "wagon train to the stars" TV series ...
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #419 on: 29 January 2016, 14:42:56 »
Speaking of relativistic physics, found something I'd been looking for - millisecond pulsar rotation rates and the idea of frame dragging.  Imagine a neutron star spinning at a little over 42,000rpm.  And imagine how fast that it's moving at the equator.  Now imagine what that's doing to the very fabric of space time, twisting and wrapping it around the star like taffy around a mixing hook.

Now imagine passing through that frame-dragged space.
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