Hatchets under Total Warfare...Useless?

[mensa12345]

I was a big fan of Hatchets when they first came out.  I loved the idea of a 30 ton TMS jacked mech running around head-capping Atlases.   Since TW rewrote the rules so that Hatchets do damage on the general hits table and not the punch table, do they make sense.  They cost a heck of a lot of tonnage, and it's generally a pain to get them close enough to use.  Anyone out there still a Hatchet fan, or is it a dead technology?

[Lanceman]

IIRC, it's been on the general hit table since BMR: Revised. 

[sheeple]

In our group, they seem to hit every 2 to 3 years. So definitely really difficult to use and results aren't that great.

But we still use them now and then. They aren't exactly powerful or easy to use, but the aesthetic aspect of multi-ton hatchet is cool. And it's really satisfying when you finally manage to land a blow.

[Istal_Devalis]

They've always been on the general hits table.  Hatchets being on the punch table was just a common misreading of the things.

Anyways, the hatchet is a specialised tool. It's meant for specific situations and not for all around use.  You'd use a hatchet (and other melee weapons) for situations where you know you'll often be fighting in close quarters; urban environments, heavilly wooded areas, and other built up terrain where it's easy to hide or show up out of nowhere.

[Fullback]

I just looked through my old rulebooks, but i don´t find any reference that club/hatchet hits are rolled on the punch HLT. we also used to play it that way, until the later 1691 Compendium-ROW.

1640 Compendium  doesn´t say anything about which HLT should be used
1691 Compendium- Rules of Warfare  says "Roll normaly on the BattleMech Hit Location Table."

So a rulebook from 1994 allready  tell you to roll on the general table.
It´s just another mysterious blame on TW, that the rule was rewritten

[Old Knight]

Hatchet on it's own is not a good way to spend tonnage on a mech. But if you like them, use a mech that have also TSM (Triple Strenght Myomer) that will double hatchet damage. In this way even if you don't hit the head, the damage could be very high. Let's take a look at some mech with TSM.

75 tons Black Knight BL-10-KNT, move 5-8-0, hatchet and TSM. Hatchet damage of 30 with TSM.  :o
65 tons Thunderbolt TDR-60-RLA, move 5-8-5, no hatchet and TSM. Punch damage of 13 (a good headcapper!!!)  ::)
60 tons Ti Ts'ang, move 6-9-6, hatchet and TSM. Great move and a 24 damage hatchet blow.  8)
95 tons Banshee BNC-8S, move 4-6-0, hatchet and TSM. Hatchet damage of 38... scary thing of destruction.  }:)

Of course those mech won't close enemy freely on the battlefield. You're opponent won't let it happen easily but that's the price to pay to wield such a thing of power.

[Wrangler]

I think real use for hatchet is for jumpers,  specially if landed same turn.  You don't have to worry about your 'Mech falling over attempting a kick.  TSM or No TSM.

Other that its a option to be used, until your leg too hosed up to use.

[ScrapYardArmory]

I've seen NightSkys be an absolute terror on the battlefield.  Properly supported, it can be an excellent giant killer.

Hatchets aren't useless, just misunderstood.

[JPArbiter]

that hatchets are tied to pilot skill rather then gunnery skill or a generic punch table is a real bonus now.  being able to have a 4 gunner/3 pilot mechwarrior can be a game changer with many axe weilders.

and of course, having an axe toter in open terrain is just inviting to be shot.  use those woods and hills and junk to your advantage

[Lagbreaker]

The Nightskies are good because of their pulse lasers, not because they mount a hatchet. I bet anyone would trade that hatchet for another 2 medium pulse lasers.

It is allmost allway better to kick a mech.
The only time you would use a hatchet is if your target is out of your front firing arc and in some instances where u gamble to take a mech out in one shot.

Frex: Ti Tsang behind a mint Marauder.
A kick (best chance to hit) will not breach the armor of the leg, though induce 2 PSRs at +1. A hatchet attack (worse chance to hit) kills the Marauder if it hits the side torsos or the head. Of course you could allways chose to punch twice (worst chance to hit) to take the head right off.

[Old Knight]

Kicking is good but if you fail to hit, you have to make yourself a PSR and it mean that your mech could fall (never a good a thing). For this reason i prefer hatchet or punch attack.

[Kamov]

It's a sad fact of the rules that punching and kicking are almost always better choices on mechs with melee weapons than actually using their built-in melee weapon.  For this reason I have a house rule that penalizes the chances to hit with those attacks so that regular hatchet/sword attacks look better by comparison.

One nice thing about TW is that you can take a +4 penalty to hit in order to target your attack to use either the "legs" or "punch" hit location chart.  Even using standard rules, this allows swords to target specific locations at +2 to hit (based on pilot skill), but hatchets end up with a +3 to hit, which is a little harder to overcome, in my experience.

So yeah.  The best melee mechs are just ones with two fists to punch with, TSM, and 55 tons+ (to get 12 point punches). :P

[Kit deSummersville]

75 tons Black Knight BL-10-KNT, move 5-8-0, hatchet and TSM. Hatchet damage of 30 with TSM.  :o
65 tons Thunderbolt TDR-60-RLA, move 5-8-5, no hatchet and TSM. Punch damage of 13 (a good headcapper!!!)  ::)
60 tons Ti Ts'ang, move 6-9-6, hatchet and TSM. Great move and a 24 damage hatchet blow.  8)
95 tons Banshee BNC-8S, move 4-6-0, hatchet and TSM. Hatchet damage of 38... scary thing of destruction.  }:)

Sadly the Black Knight only moves 4/6 until TSM go active.

[Old Knight]

Sadly the Black Knight only moves 4/6 until TSM go active.

You're right. shame on me... :'(

[cray]

One nice thing about TW is that you can take a +4 penalty to hit in order to target your attack to use either the "legs" or "punch" hit location chart.  Even using standard rules, this allows swords to target specific locations at +2 to hit (based on pilot skill), but hatchets end up with a +3 to hit, which is a little harder to overcome, in my experience.

Thank you for pointing that out. I was about to do the same. My ongoing MechWarrior (ATOW) Solaris campaign involves, among other PCs, a very talented MechWarrior with a Hatchetman who has been a terror in close combat. He takes the penalty frequently to make punch hit location attacks.

[IndyRI]

As has been stated, Hatchets are generally not a wise expenditure of tonnage or crits. They're heavy, and only do as much damage to a non-targeted location as a kick, with less of a chance to hit. Even with TSM, by an large, a mech's natural physical attacks will be the superior choices to the expended tonnage on a melee weapon. The math simply can't be overcome in any but the most specialized of situations.

That being said, however, hatchets are awesome. And cool. And the rule of cool is not impressed by pitiful math. As such, any mech toting a hatchet often becomes an immediate battlefield target simply by virtue of being so damned impressive and imposing that players can't help but want to kill it dead. While this greatly shortens their life spans, it does make then excellent for area denial, as well as acting as fire magnet screens for your less-durable units.

[Nibs]

60 tons Ti Ts'ang, move 6-9-6, hatchet and TSM. Great move and a 24 damage hatchet blow.  8)

I fear this, and will flee, whimpering at the pain it incurs.

[CitizenErased]

My second time ever playing with her, I let my girlfriend have a lance of heavies led by a BNC-8S, while I took a slightly lighter lance overall - can't remember the specific composition though. It was her first time playing with full TW rules instead of just the Intro stuff, but she got the hang of TSM-juggling pretty quickly - it's pretty easy on the -8S, mind you, but still pretty impressive for a second-time player. The terrain was kind of tight, and she wound up backing my QKD-8K into a corner. I blew one of her arms off with an MRM salvo and thought I might have a chance to get some backup... and then she closed to point-blank, let me have one hell of a salvo from all those lasers, and proceeded to then cut my Quickdraw into sashimi by completely coring the center torso.

Hatchets are rule-of-cool, like IndyRI said. The Dice Gods favor the bold, and when you have a player who likes to get down and dirty, they make for a great combination. That said, I can't use them for crap, as they don't fit my play style, but I am wary of them in the right hands. And a Banshee's hands (both the 'Mech and my girlfriend) are definitely the right ones.

[Spheroid]

The Nightskies are good because of their pulse lasers, not because they mount a hatchet. I bet anyone would trade that hatchet for another 2 medium pulse lasers.

That hatchet is much better when going against BA.  I can kill two with energy and then step on one in the forward arc or cleave another to death in my hex or the sides.  The hatchet is better than the kick in that situation.  Hatchet mechs are often cheap BV which is always good, even though two pulse lasers would only raise the BV by a hundred or so.

[Youngblood]

Did your opponent make his PSR in the firing phase?  Are you piloting a 'Mech 50 tons or heavier?  Force another PSR with a TSM-powered hatchet attack.  Even if they don't fall again, large groupings of damage such as those from a powerful physical attack are invaluable in a game where armor is ablative.

[Demon55]

In my experience a hatchet equipped mech will get shot to shreds if it tries to close and is not properly supported.  For a hatchet equipped mech proper use of terrain is essential.  Generally I would rather have something other than a hatchet like more armor, HSs and or weapons.

[IndyRI]

I think that there is definitely a lot of hate on melee weapons in general Are they inefficient? Yes. Bu not for te generally cited reasons. Having a powerful attack in the physical phase that can become extremely potent with TSM is invaluable. The reason that melee weapons are fairly inefficient is due tpo the fact that kicking and punching is just so darn effective. For no tonnage you essentially have a pulse axe tht only causes damage to two locations, for damage focus, as well as causing a PSR; or a one in three chance of hitting the target's head in the event of a double punch. Are hatchets and suchuseful even with these natural attacks? Yes. But given the tonnage/crit commitment you're by and large better off not even bothering, even with TSM.

[Mattlov]

Hatchets are brute weapons.  They aren't there for finesse, or playing the numbers.  Sure, the kick is easier to hit, but there is a lot of armor on legs, and not a lot of valuable crits.

My hatchets can hit anywhere, including cleaving that Gauss rifle in the arm in half.  Your kick can't.  That is a useful ability.  Especially in a side arc.  My hatchet can also hit rear armor, where your kick cannot.

See?  Useful.  Not the most useful thing ever put on a 'Mech, but better than an A-Pod...

[mensa12345]

  Not the most useful thing ever put on a 'Mech, but better than an A-Pod...

Throwing fish at your enemy is more useful than an A-pod. [AAAH]

[Hellraiser]

Since TW rewrote the rules so that Hatchets do damage on the general hits table and not the punch table, do they make sense.  They cost a heck of a lot of tonnage, and it's generally a pain to get them close enough to use.  Anyone out there still a Hatchet fan, or is it a dead technology?

They've always been on the general hits table.  Hatchets being on the punch table was just a common misreading of the things.

[/b][/u]
 ^ ^ Ditto

1.  As stated, it was NEVER on the punch table, that was people not reading the rules properly.
2.  I don't think hatchets are a "Useful Tool" so much as they are a cool Gimmick that CAN be made into a "Niche Weapon".  I don't field tons of them but I also don't feel the need to avoid a Hatchetman, Axeman, Nightsky, or Berserker like they are useless or anything.

[garhkal]

I think real use for hatchet is for jumpers,  specially if landed same turn.  You don't have to worry about your 'Mech falling over attempting a kick.  TSM or No TSM.

Other that its a option to be used, until your leg too hosed up to use.

That 'no falling if you miss' is why i prefer hatchets to kicks.

The Nightskies are good because of their pulse lasers, not because they mount a hatchet. I bet anyone would trade that hatchet for another 2 medium pulse lasers.

Nope.  In all 4 enagements i have used night skys (2 in the first, 1 in the second, 3 in the third, 2 in the fourth), i hit 5 of 9 tries the first time with the hatchet, 4 of 5 for the second, 9 of 17 for the third and 3 of 5 for the last (Darn head cap from  gauss rifle took both out in round 4)...  So i have had rather good luck with them..

In my experience a hatchet equipped mech will get shot to shreds if it tries to close and is not properly supported.  For a hatchet equipped mech proper use of terrain is essential.  Generally I would rather have something other than a hatchet like more armor, HSs and or weapons.

That is very true...  Cannot count the number of opponents i have faced that never learnt that little tactic.

My hatchets can hit anywhere, including cleaving that Gauss rifle in the arm in half.  Your kick can't.  That is a useful ability.  Especially in a side arc.  My hatchet can also hit rear armor, where your kick cannot.

Plus nothing is sweeter than cleaving the head off!

[cray]

My hatchets can hit anywhere, including cleaving that Gauss rifle in the arm in half.  Your kick can't.  That is a useful ability.  Especially in a side arc.  My hatchet can also hit rear armor, where your kick cannot.

My kick can hit rear armor after I take off one of your legs with my first kicks. :)

[IndyRI]

Hatchets are brute weapons.  They aren't there for finesse, or playing the numbers.  Sure, the kick is easier to hit, but there is a lot of armor on legs, and not a lot of valuable crits.

My hatchets can hit anywhere, including cleaving that Gauss rifle in the arm in half.  Your kick can't.  That is a useful ability.  Especially in a side arc.  My hatchet can also hit rear armor, where your kick cannot.

Also useful for removing rear armor once you fail your piloting skill roll. Also, that handy extra 8 tons of armor and weaponry on my mech that I got by not mounting a hatchet is going to likely leave a lot more hurt on you than it will me. I love melee weapons due to the sheer awesome factor, but so long as kicks do (Tonnage/5) and are -2, or until Melee weapons use the punch table, they are a waste of space. Are hatchets usually a better choice than a kick if you already have said hatchet? Yeah, usually. But again, that's not the issue. The issue is why you'd mount the hatchet to begin with when a kick is almost as useful, for 0 tonnage.

[topcat]

Would be interesting if the rules forced damage to the attacking player if they didn't use a weapon of some sort.  Say... 1/2 of the damage caused?  Weapons, being built to handle the stresses of attacking, would take no damage.

[Old Knight]

I don't think that hatchet (or any other physical weapon) worth any tonnage allocation on a mech. I prefer to use TSM equipped mech with no physical weapon. In this way you still have all the tonnage for armor and weapon and your punch could tore of a head with a single hit.  [drool]