Dark Age Design Philosophy

[Nahuris]

Since the timeline has progressed, I've been working to familiarize myself with any updated rules, and having at least some familiarity with the new designs... and the more I look, the more questions I have been coming up with.
What's with some of these new designs... for example;
The Blade --- all the weapons in one arm?
Or the Ryoken II --- 2 LRM15's and 4 LBX2's? and this is clan tech???
If you look at some of the clicky tech mechs that haven't been statted out yet, you get some good ones, like the Avalanche -- but putting it next to say a Legionnaire or Hitotsune Kozo, or especially a Rokurokubi --- you have to ask what the designers were thinking?

I know that there are variants of some of these, such as Tassa Kay's Ryoken II --- but that's a one off design, not a standard..... and just as many of the designes make very little sense overall.
Let's consider the Mjolnir --- it gets TSM, but unless you allow the optional rule of allowing the pilot to turn off heat sinks, it has to jump and fire all of it's weapons for 3 turns to build enough heat to get the benefits of that TSM.... which, by the way, only adds 2 more damage to the mace hit......  which asks the question as to whether that justifies the weight of the mace on a light mech?

Then, there is the "undead" series of mechs... except that they aren't a series as some are IS designs, and some are Clan... the fact that the names are related is a coincidence.

Has anyone else noted some of these issues with some of the new mechs?
I'll admit that I do like the look of some of them ( I have 2 blades, a ghost, an ocelot, and several others, to include a Jupiter 2), but the weapon packages seem more inefficient that even some 3025 designs. People disparage the Vulcan, but it had at least a medium laser as backup to the ammo weapons.

Other opinions?

Nahuris
 

[martian]

Not much interested in Dark Age, but some 'Mechs have different weapons in current TROs than their Dark Age descriptions suggest. For example Ghost (to Large Pulse lasers and SRM-6 in Dark Age - two Light PPCs and two MMLs now) or ShockWave (UAC-10 in Dark Age - RAC-5 now) or Targe (three ER Medium lasers and LRM-10 in Dark Age - three ER Smalls and MRM-10 now).

[Scrollreader]

As mentioned, TPTB have, in some of the worst cases, used the DA loadouts as (either explicitly, or by implication) as unsuccessful or desperate variants, due to issues in that part of RoS.  (see also the armed industrialmechs)

[JPArbiter]

Since the timeline has progressed, I've been working to familiarize myself with any updated rules, and having at least some familiarity with the new designs... and the more I look, the more questions I have been coming up with.
What's with some of these new designs... for example;
The Blade --- all the weapons in one arm?
Or the Ryoken II --- 2 LRM15's and 4 LBX2's? and this is clan tech???
If you look at some of the clicky tech mechs that haven't been statted out yet, you get some good ones, like the Avalanche -- but putting it next to say a Legionnaire or Hitotsune Kozo, or especially a Rokurokubi --- you have to ask what the designers were thinking?

Let's consider the Mjolnir --- it gets TSM, but unless you allow the optional rule of allowing the pilot to turn off heat sinks, it has to jump and fire all of it's weapons for 3 turns to build enough heat to get the benefits of that TSM.... which, by the way, only adds 2 more damage to the mace hit......  which asks the question as to whether that justifies the weight of the mace on a light mech?

Has anyone else noted some of these issues with some of the new mechs?
Other opinions?

Nahuris

The Blade and Legionairre are built with the premise of ease of manufacture in mind.  the first legionnaires were built almost by hand from spare centurion parts.  the blade is fluffed that it's gun arm can be easily removed in an almost omnimech like way, making maintaince and replacement easier.

the Ryoken II was built to be a second line support mech purpose built to face combined arms armies.  the LB2Xs allow for vehicular critical hits at extreme range, and the whole arsenal is geared towards anti aircraft cover.  that it is a second line mech also should not be ignored.

the Hitosune Kozo, Rukurokubi, and Shiro were all designed with Combine pride in mind. keep in mind the Nirobi are stylistic, not required.  as none have been statted out I can not commend on thier equipment. 

the Falcon Bird Mechs are the same, and even though we have a rough idea of their stats, until they appear in TROs I can not comment on their capabilities.  I can say I like the Double jointed legs and use of Wing Sinks, though the bird shaped heads are a bit much for me.

[Arctic Fox]

A lot of the late- and post-Jihad 'Mechs are designed to be simple, easy to produce and cheap, rather than tactically optimized. Take the Mjolnir for example; its Mace might not be the most effective weapon ever, but it is cheap.

Oh, and as far as I know turning off heat sinks is not an optional rule, as it's in Total Warfare.

[Youngblood]

Out-of-universe, it does seem like there were pushes to make 'Mech configurations "original" or "unique", with the only real consideration being that it roughly translated to Mechwarrior: DA/AoD rules somehow.

The three-legged Colossus series 'Mechs have laughable weaponry configurations. }:)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Oh, and as far as I know turning off heat sinks is not an optional rule, as it's in Total Warfare.

Turning off heatsinks is optional, but the rule itself isn't because Total Warfare rules are by default always in play unless otherwise specified.

[Fallen_Raven]

I'm not sure how much of the Dark Age design process involved the construction rules at all. Some of the 'mechs are obviously strange (who builds a 'mech with only one gun that jams?), and others abuse Clantech in all the wrong ways (4 UAC 5s on a 100-tonner?). And some of them seem devoted to making "cool" minis with swords, chainsaws, and shields. Of course all of this is compounded by the problem that the Dark Age designers had to make units that fit into Battletech's tradition but felt different enough to establish their own brand, and make these new units viable in they're game system.

This isn't to say that these 'mechs aren't enjoyable (I can do nasty things to any fighter passing the same mapsheet as a Jupiter, while making tankers cry with a Ryoken II), but as a whole the Jihad design philosophy seemed rather erratic.

[cold1]

I thought the whole DA thing was caused by a long age of peace and no one had guns anymore then things went south after the blackout and people had to fight with whatever they had.  Hence all the industrial conversions and undergunned mechs.

I always thought it was some attempt to take BT back to the early SW days.

[Peter Smith]

...who builds a 'mech with only one gun that jams?...

Steiner, it's called the Blitzkrieg, it first showed up in TRO: 3060.

[Deadborder]

A lot of the Dark Age mechs were designed "in house" by WK for conversion to combat dials. They were never intended for CBT play, thus many of them sport rather nonsensical weapons loads or design elements (IIRC, Welshman commented that the Mangonel wasn't even a legal design, though he didn't say how). Apparently what makes for a good dial doesn't convert into good (or even playable) CBT stats.

[Scrollreader]

I think, IIRC, it was supposed to be an IS tech design with two gauss rifles.
In the same torso.   ::)

[Moonsword]

This isn't to say that these 'mechs aren't enjoyable (I can do nasty things to any fighter passing the same mapsheet as a Jupiter, while making tankers cry with a Ryoken II), but as a whole the Jihad design philosophy seemed rather erratic.

The Jupiter is a surprisingly dangerous customer.  Those Ultras may not be tonnage-efficient but combined with the rest of the loadout, that 'Mech can throw a lot of firepower around.

[SteelRaven]

Big thing to keep in mind that the DA mech designers only had the dial to think about, not the CBT record sheets (on the dial, both LRMs and all four LB-X2s are treated like one weapon.) I hate the AC/2 and Micro-Laser heavy mechs but if you have kept a eye on the TRO's you'll notice that the newer variants make allot more sense. 

[Daemion]

Steiner, it's called the Blitzkrieg, it first showed up in TRO: 3060.

And, if it doesn't jam, it blows up, a la the Hollander and Hollander II.

At least the Lego can unjam, and has arms for punching, unlike the Blitzkrieg.

The Jupiter is a surprisingly dangerous customer.  Those Ultras may not be tonnage-efficient but combined with the rest of the loadout, that 'Mech can throw a lot of firepower around.

And, it's excellent at killing conventional units of any kind. I had one wipe out two entire stars of Battle Armor with hover transports. And, not all of them were in the transports when they died.

Yes, the Jupiter is one of my favorite DA 100 tonners.

Big thing to keep in mind that the DA mech designers only had the dial to think about, not the CBT record sheets (on the dial, both LRMs and all four LB-X2s are treated like one weapon.)

This is very true, and all the attempts at turning the dials into playable BattleTech stats will always have a hangup because of this. All suggestions that a certain click of damage equals x amount in BT is highly subjective. So, reverse-engineering dials comes down to taste. And, this has given me room to play with a fun alternative idea.

Still:

I hate the AC/2 and Micro-Laser heavy mechs but if you have kept a eye on the TRO's you'll notice that the newer variants make allot more sense. 

I actually kind of like the idea that there was a new learning curve in there somewhere for the new forces of war after a generation or two of sales reps pulling the wool over the eyes of unseasoned procurement officers.

A lot of the stuff in the 3075 and '85 TRs are coming off experience gained through the fires of the Jihad. That can't possibly last to the 3130s, can it?

I'm personally hoping that they re-issue the old DA sheets with some touch-ups with the new rules so that we have the oddballs around for a short time.

[Nahuris]

I understand a lot of what has been said... but also, I've noted a revival of the AC in so many of the designs.
Again, I'm not necessarily dismissing, or disperaging the designs, as much as I am trying to work my head around some of them.
With the Ryoken II -- it was the heavy mech with nothing but ammo weapons with light to mid-range damage capability.  I've already noted a pull back on ranges and damages with the new PPC's and MML's --- both of which encourage closer range combat  (MML's can take LRM ammo, but truly show their power with SRM ammo). I like the plasma rifle, as it sits sort of between PPC's and AC/s with it's 10 damage and 10 shots a ton it's a lighter AC/10 that causes heat..... Looking forward to the LPR (Light Plasma Rifle) --- 4 tons, 5 heat / 5 damage and a ton of ammo being 20 shots....... (yeah, I'm reaching, but maybe??)

Also, I've been reading the DA novels --- one of those mentions a catapult with LRM's and an AC/2 chasing Julian Davion around... and they imply that the AC/2 was  a formidable weapon.... which, if the TPTB plan on adding better ammo, then maybe we could see the revival in AC/s

Nahuris

[Fallen_Raven]

Autocannons may be seeing a revival based on their low heat and large ammo capacities. I'm basing this off of the armed Industrialmech phenomenon, where Single Heatsinks are the only option and most planets seemed to have some capability to produce standard ammo.This leads me to believe that even a light Autocannon is a potent weapon against converted (often poorly) civilian equipment, and allows for sustained combat capability in excess of many missile weapons.

[JPArbiter]

The Jupiter is a surprisingly dangerous customer.  Those Ultras may not be tonnage-efficient but combined with the rest of the loadout, that 'Mech can throw a lot of firepower around.

name one other mecht hat can throw 40 points of damage on a target for less heat impact?  the Jupiter has more throw weight for less heat then the vaunted Hellstar.  funny how no Dark Age detractors complain about THAT mech though.

[Ratwedge]

name one other mecht hat can throw 40 points of damage on a target for less heat impact?  the Jupiter has more throw weight for less heat then the vaunted Hellstar.  funny how no Dark Age detractors complain about THAT mech though.

SSSSSHHHHHH.

Don't let them figure it out.

[Fallen_Raven]

name one other mecht hat can throw 40 points of damage on a target for less heat impact?  the Jupiter has more throw weight for less heat then the vaunted Hellstar.  funny how no Dark Age detractors complain about THAT mech though.

Since I play with people who love combined arms, I'm more impressed with the to end 16 clusters it can put down range for such a low heat burden. If that many lawn dart checks doesn't terrify any fighter jock, the twin 15 point thresholds should!

[Istal_Devalis]

Let's consider the Mjolnir --- it gets TSM, but unless you allow the optional rule of allowing the pilot to turn off heat sinks, it has to jump and fire all of it's weapons for 3 turns to build enough heat to get the benefits of that TSM.... which, by the way, only adds 2 more damage to the mace hit......  which asks the question as to whether that justifies the weight of the mace on a light mech?

Specifically in the Mjolnir's case, I'd note TSM gets the mace damage up to the magic damage number of 12, head capping territory. It's the smallest mech able to do that with a physical weapon. It might not be to effective at that, but it's something you have to consider when one gets near you.

Anyways, to add to some of the other explanations out there, many of the Btech stats had to be figured out after the mini showed up and they then had to match barrels. It's why you see a lot of units with scores of tiny guns.

I'd also point out that 'unoptimized' designs have long been a staple of Battletech. You can find tons of units out there where no one wants to use them unless they have to. IC it's because they often take into account design factors that we dont. Others...well, they make the game more interesting.

Autocannons may be seeing a revival based on their low heat and large ammo capacities.

I'd point out that Laser Reflective armor has entered production levels of availability. That'll be another factor to think about. If your ERPPC is only doing 5 damage, it makes an AC look more attractive. Ditto reactive armor and missile armaments. it makes more sense to vary your armament types.

[Orin J.]

Specifically in the Mjolnir's case, I'd note TSM gets the mace damage up to the magic damage number of 12. It's the smallest mech able to do that with a physical weapon. It might not be to effective at that, but it's something you have to consider when one gets near you.

also, if you're packing inferno rounds or plasma weapons the Mjolnir is a very bad target for them, so it can make opponents hesitate before they start firing them and the ability to control your opponent's decisions is not an small one.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

name one other mecht hat can throw 40 points of damage on a target for less heat impact?  the Jupiter has more throw weight for less heat then the vaunted Hellstar.  funny how no Dark Age detractors complain about THAT mech though.

The Fafnir can inflict 50 points of damage while generating 4 points of heat.

Now, on the original subject, one of the things about the DA mechs was that the stats on the dials were really just arbitrary nonsense a lot of the time- case in point, the Jupiter had a range of 6 with its Energy Weapon attack, despite having 2 ER PPCs that should have been able to match the range of its Ballistics Attack.

From what I heard, statting out DA mechs has largely been a case of taking any canon information on the mech that was available (like tonnage), then trying to build stats that matched the image, which often resulted in machines that had a more eclectically nonsensical weapons load out than the Shadow Hawk.

[Psycho]

And the Thunder Hawk can do 45 for 3 heat.

Jupiter = Clan-tech Mauler. With the greater efficiency of Clan equipment and 10 extra tons, it should be able to perform better. It's very hard to make a bad 'Mech  when you start with 100 tons, 3/5 XL, DHS, Clan... but there are also better ways of doing it. It's not total crap, so it doesn't get the same criticism as other designs. Don't take that as meaning DA designs are good in general.

[JPArbiter]

Very good examples psycho and ogre, I honestly did not consider the Fafnir (though I did the Thunder Hawk)

point is that the Jupiter is actually a pretty decent mech because it can maintain a high rate of fire at long range with moderate to low heat output.

when you get right down to it, most of the dark age mechs are not inherently bad, but few of them are strait forward either.  the total warfare rules shift helped them out dramatically.  you could not convince me to take a ryoken II under the BMR, but now it would be the go to mech if I am facing an armor company.

[va_wanderer]

If anything, it hearkens back to me as seeing the 'Mech as "king of the battlefield"- one that sees fellow 'Mechs much less often than it did pre-Jihad...and designed accordingly.

It means a lot of the armor-mauling weapons seem to have gone out in favor of weapons that have better chances of exploiting the weaker structure on vehicles- missiles hit more potential crits than energy weapons, autocannons often can generate cluster hits whether it's Ultras, LBX or RAC.

I don't think we need to worry much, though. With all the "variant" Dark Age designs that reared their heads thanks to multiple near-similar models, it'll be cake for Catalyst to fold in more sane-by-Classic models into the TRO's as well.

[Nahuris]

Ok.... I think I am seeing some of the ideas.
And yeah, lots of small hits would work well if your opponents are primarily vehicle in nature.
Also, the Ryoken II would be an awesome VTOL killer.....

I actually already own 2 Blades, a Ghost, a Jupiter 2, a pair of Bear Cubs, and a few others of the DA mechs.
I do like the variety... just trying to understand how they work on the field.

Besides the AC's, you also see more melee weapons, and slower designs.... which makes sense if they are supporting vehicles rather than carrying the battle.

Nahuris

[JPArbiter]

That Total Warfare released a number of newer weapons that simply were not thought of when dark age came out, which can add better utility to dark age designs.

case in point the stealth armor and light PPCs on the Ghost

the MML system on a Shiro, Plasma Weapons.... anywhere.

Besides the AC's, you also see more melee weapons, and slower designs.... which makes sense if they are supporting vehicles rather than carrying the battle.

Nahuris

I do not know if I would say I am seeing MORE melee weapons as much as their creative applications, as far as slower designs, I so far have been seeing quite the opposite.  as a direct fire support mech I expected the Mangonel to be a 4/6 for example, and I don't think anyone honestly expected the Shadow Cat II to match the original in speed.

[Lysenko]

Privyet!

I'm not sure about some of the DA designs we have seen. The Cattle-herder makes me shake my head every time I see it.

[Peter Smith]

The Cattle-herder makes me shake my head every time I see it.

The one from TRO: Vehicle Annex? It's not a DA design.