Author Topic: MotW: Blackjack  (Read 36860 times)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #30 on: 07 August 2019, 14:18:22 »
It apparently took me an article of a Blackjack to notice that Re-Lasers get pulse bonuses now.
Man, that's a nice surprise.
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Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #31 on: 07 August 2019, 14:27:32 »
They got erratad before IO release.
-1 heat for each class, and gained -1 to hit. The BV went up naturally, and there's one or two vehicles that are currently underweight due to the heat changes.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #32 on: 07 August 2019, 14:43:46 »
I didn't even think they were too hot.  :o
Well, that turns the newest Blackjack into a rather nifty machine in my eyes. I'd certainly prefer that over, say, large pulse lasers.
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Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #33 on: 07 August 2019, 15:02:54 »
Everything's preferred over LPLs, except maybe HVACs...

I think i'd have preferred a weird LAC/medium REL combination for the Blackjack. Special ammo and a battery for getting rid of special armor.

Or at very least a coat of ferro-fibrous and another medium laser, i dislike the asymmetry lol

JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #34 on: 08 August 2019, 07:59:15 »
With the glut of Clan tech on the market in the DA era, Clan LPLs would be pretty entertaining. In a situation like this, I don't even feel like that violates Apollo's Law- it's taking what's already a good Mech and making it even nastier. There's probably better places to apply those LPLs in an army, but I see this as a very handy bodyguard for LRM boats- when your Longbows and JES carriers start getting harassed by Spiders and the like, a CLPL-Jack would be an excellent welcome mat to greet them with. Not bad for getting rid of aircraft either.
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Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #35 on: 08 August 2019, 08:01:18 »
With some tweaking, one could cram in quad ProtoMech AC/2s. No comment on whether there'd be any point to that...

Wrangler

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #36 on: 08 August 2019, 08:16:42 »
With some tweaking, one could cram in quad ProtoMech AC/2s. No comment on whether there'd be any point to that...
Why it's clever idea, it would have to be Dark Age variant at latest.  Frankly, i'd think it's waste since the Mech may not be in production and weapons high expensive until FedSuns is able get more Clan tech producing factories going during it's current multi-prong invasions it's fending off by 3150.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #37 on: 08 August 2019, 08:18:55 »
With some tweaking, one could cram in quad ProtoMech AC/2s. No comment on whether there'd be any point to that...

I'm laughing at my work desk hard enough that I almost spilled my coffee. I want to see a kitbash of this in miniature form now!
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Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #38 on: 08 August 2019, 08:21:20 »
I... don't get what's the funny thing. I was just thinking that i wouldn't be sure about LPLs, there are better platforms for them but something like PACs, sure why not.

As for a mini, we need to page Worktroll. I'm sure he is open to weird ideas like this.

EDIT pretty sure it would look like a miniature Rifleman.

EDIT2 I hope there are no coffee damages.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #39 on: 08 August 2019, 08:26:09 »
Nah, no offense to the idea- I just got a mental image of this thing walking onto a battlefield with four miniguns tacked onto each arm and it gave me a good laugh. "BJ-5 Blackjack: Overcompensation Edition". The idea's a weird one, but not BAD at all- the LOOKS of it, however, would be absolutely fantastic.
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Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #40 on: 08 August 2019, 08:27:41 »
Oh, i see what you mean now.

Wrangler

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #41 on: 08 August 2019, 08:29:26 »
Nah, no offense to the idea- I just got a mental image of this thing walking onto a battlefield with four miniguns tacked onto each arm and it gave me a good laugh. "BJ-5 Blackjack: Overcompensation Edition". The idea's a weird one, but not BAD at all- the LOOKS of it, however, would be absolutely fantastic.
LOL, given how the Blackjack looks like, it look like non-arm variant of the UrbanMech.  ;D ;D

I wish there were vehicles/mechs equipped with them, i'd love to do photo shop of one.  ^-^
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grimlock1

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #42 on: 08 August 2019, 08:30:24 »
With the glut of Clan tech on the market in the DA era, Clan LPLs would be pretty entertaining. In a situation like this, I don't even feel like that violates Apollo's Law- it's taking what's already a good Mech and making it even nastier. There's probably better places to apply those LPLs in an army, but I see this as a very handy bodyguard for LRM boats- when your Longbows and JES carriers start getting harassed by Spiders and the like, a CLPL-Jack would be an excellent welcome mat to greet them with. Not bad for getting rid of aircraft either.
Hey, you coined Apollo's law.  That kinda makes you the arbiter. :)
Nah, no offense to the idea- I just got a mental image of this thing walking onto a battlefield with four miniguns tacked onto each arm and it gave me a good laugh. "BJ-5 Blackjack: Overcompensation Edition". The idea's a weird one, but not BAD at all- the LOOKS of it, however, would be absolutely fantastic.
Hey, that approach worked for Heavy Arms in GW Endless Waltz.
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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #43 on: 10 August 2019, 07:49:29 »
I think my opinion of the design is similar to others, its a serviceable design for the SW era thanks to it reliance on the best weapon ever invented  :thumbsup: but it could have been much better without committing a quarter of its weight to AC2s. I like the Davion LL refit, but I think it goes too far with the cooling and would have been better off not shaving off the armor and all the ML.

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DarkSpade

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #44 on: 10 August 2019, 08:57:34 »
They got erratad before IO release.
-1 heat for each class, and gained -1 to hit. The BV went up naturally, and there's one or two vehicles that are currently underweight due to the heat changes.

What got an errata?
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #45 on: 10 August 2019, 09:07:30 »
What got an errata?
The Re-Lasers. I missed that one, but they are just good now. Instead of lemons (well, maybe the colour fits) not quite reaching the level of HVACs.
I wonder why they needed to drop heat, but that's not the point here.
At first, reading the article, I just thought that the last version was rather expensive for being so utterly mediocre, but with the buffed lasers, it is now actually a serious mech.
Ignore reflec and hardened armour on what is essentially 2 large pulse lasers. Not bad, really.
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Ursus Maior

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #46 on: 10 August 2019, 10:24:26 »
The BJ-1 is hands down one of the best teamplayers in the later SW era. When I first encountered it, I was like "yeah, no thanks". But a friend from my old chapter used to pilot one and it was awesome what he could do with it. Those 4 ML are not to be underestimated, and the 2 AC/2s are great in combined arms warfare to plink down helicopters and hovers.

We paired it with Catapults, my Griffin, a Jenner and even a Crab. It just adds to every medium to heavy lance.
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DarkSpade

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #47 on: 10 August 2019, 11:30:07 »
The Re-Lasers. I missed that one, but they are just good now. Instead of lemons (well, maybe the colour fits) not quite reaching the level of HVACs.
I wonder why they needed to drop heat, but that's not the point here.
At first, reading the article, I just thought that the last version was rather expensive for being so utterly mediocre, but with the buffed lasers, it is now actually a serious mech.
Ignore reflec and hardened armour on what is essentially 2 large pulse lasers. Not bad, really.

I'll have to keep that in mind.  Generally errata is a fairy tail here until it's actually in a printed book or PDF.  Just too much to keep track of.
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God and Davion

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #48 on: 10 August 2019, 14:11:13 »
Nice article Hellbie! I loved to see the Targe getting its well deserved place in the list.  :)) ;D

It is a great mech despite the AC2s. The 4 medium lasers are great and the AC2 are useful against tanks. If you feel evil just bring a Whitworth and enjoy the ML spam and the salt. 
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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #49 on: 10 August 2019, 14:32:58 »
The BlackJack looks like a flak turret on legs. which isn't a bad look considering, it's rather dashing placed by the commanders as they watch the rest of the army on parade. it also pretty much is a flak turret on legs. and jumpjets. 45 tons to say you can play lawndarts anywhere you go seems like a fine thing to me. playing a campaign and you make your enemy deal with a roving anti-aircraft lance devouring their air superiority sounds like the kind of harassment prefer to do.

i'm pretty sure the laser array is there to tell bugs in 3025 they need to pick another fire support to bother,  and not every laser needs to be used offensively in a good battle plan.
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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #50 on: 10 August 2019, 14:36:17 »
OTOH I contend the medium lasers are key to employment of the Blackjack, being the the vast majority of its firepower, and it's really the AC2s which are afterthoughts.

DarkSpade

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #51 on: 10 August 2019, 15:09:47 »
Working on the enemy forces for my players to be up against for their first battle and this convinced me to use the Blackjack.   They're very inexperienced with Battletech and it sounds like it should mess with them without destroying them. 

"He's hitting us from that far!?  Well it's really minor damage so we'll send the fast light mech after it.  He should have no problem soloing it, right?"

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Daryk

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #52 on: 10 August 2019, 17:52:47 »
Muhahaha….  >:D

SCC

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #53 on: 10 August 2019, 20:52:57 »
I like the Blackjack.  The BJ-1 and derivatives are pretty blah, but the BJ-2 and 3 are both loads of fun.

First time I ran a BJ-2, I helped a Zeus win a dispute with a Thor over who was the real god of thunder.
And I've just figured out how the Republic repeals the ilClan, they deploy the OG Thunder God, *Perkwunos, a 200-ton tripod with 6 CER PPC's, enough DHS to fire them continuously, a targeting computer, C3, the works.

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #54 on: 11 August 2019, 02:27:02 »
My thoughts on the Blackjack

The Blackjack (BJ-1) is a solid performer in your standard 3025 medium Davion lances.  Pair it up with an Enforcer, a Centurion, and a Dervish, and you have a nice fire support/close range trooper lance.  The key to the BJ-1's success is its combination of armor, jump jets, and its 4 medium lasers for infighting. It has comparatively low heat buildup, can fire the AC 2s for days, and while two 2pt hits at range 24 isn't very damaging, they do help in plinking away at a target. All in all the BJ 1 is designed as a team player. It's not going to grab the glory like a Wolverine or a Crab is, but it does the job, just like the M4 Sherman or a Volkswagen.

The BJ 2 is an excellent upgrade that Davion apparently fell asleep at the wheel on after the Jihad. The dual ER Large Lasers are an excellent replacement for the two AC/2, and can hurt most medium and light mechs quit well. The 4 Streak 2s are a good option if you're aiming to take advantage of a target weakened by ER Large Laser fire, and 1 ton of ammo is easily enough given the nature of Streak missiles.  I'm not a Davion fan, but I always brought one of these along when fighting against the Clans as a Fedcom unit. They were a fairly good counter against Elementals as well as lighter clan units such as the Uller.

The BJ-3 is a horrifying energy boat. It's cheap, has great firepower, and any BJ-1 model could be refitted to the BJ-3 standard fairly quickly.  Not many medium mechs can boast the ability to do 40 pts of damage in a single volley without XL/Light/Endo Steel construction.

The light AC-5 BJ 4 is built around specialty ammo and medium range combat. Precision ammo plus a targeting computer, or AP ammo etc makes for a fairly versatile anti-whatever platform.  I can also see this as a decent city fighter or anti-BA unit.

The BJ-2r is a cheap counter vs special armor units. A low BV, two 9 pt medium range main guns, and a 4/6/4 movement rate means you'll need lots of covering fire to get the Large Re lasers into range. I can also see this as a raider or guerilla unit in broke /close range territory since it doesn't have to reload, and everything but the lasers are stock parts by the Dark Ages. If need be, the lasers could be removed and replaced with other weapons pretty easily

Greatclub

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #55 on: 16 August 2019, 22:29:31 »
First turn, clan fires, misses all. Is, fires, misses all but the Blackjack ACs. One tac and 2 engine hits later, it's turn 2

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #56 on: 06 September 2019, 21:04:23 »
[decloak]


Hey guys, been away from BT for a while, for several reasons that aren't relevant here.  As one of the people long calling for the humble Blackjack to get an article, I was drawn back, like a moth to the flame.  (Once upon a time, I considered writing it myself.  But that was around the time I began drifting away.  I'm glad I passed, since I'm certainly no Hellbie.)


Now, I must defend the honor of the humble BJ-1.  The basic Blackjack is one of the most underrated designs in Battletech.  It it the best light AAA platform in the game in any era, and one of the best AAA battlemechs in 3025.  Compare it to the major competition: the JagerMech and the Rifleman.


First, a note on Flak ammo:  Flak never went extinct.  It isn't LosTech.  AAA units should be packing it even in 3025 unless there's absolutely no chance the enemy has aerial assets.  It gives a -2 to attacks against aerial units, and does full damage to such units and infantry, half against everything else.  That also gives Blackjacks an odd niche of long-range anti-infantry fire, I guess.


The JagerMech gains 20 tons, and in the process loses 2.5 tons of armor, jump jets, and a heat sink, for the gain of....turning 2 MLs into AC5s.  3x the ammo, with much greater fears of the ammo bomb.  In standard combat, it's worse at close range, only marginally better at longer range, and will probably die quicker.  In AAA use, the range on the AC5s is fine, but they're still outranged by the AC2s, and having that long range ability to force lawn-dart rolls is what you really want.   Would anyone trade their BJ-1 for a JM6-S?


The Rifleman-3N of course has its famed AAA targeting system, but unless you're playing with quirks that's meaningless fluff.  Its weapons have even shorter range, if greater throw weight, less ammo, and worse heat woes.  It *still* has 1 ton less armor than the BJ-1, and lacks jump jets.  Most of the Rifleman's throw weight, though, comes from Large Lasers, which are the major source of its heat woes, *and* can't use flak ammo.  And they have (relatively) short range, making them less useful for forcing lawn-dart rolls.  Now, in normal combat most people would probably take and RFL.  But as a AAA mech?  Without its special targeting system, it's inferior all around.  And if you're packing flak ammo, you lose more throw-weight vs ground targets than a BJ-1 does.


If you're in a unit that doesn't have the tech, size, and resources to blanket its HQ with a company of C3-linked partisans, but instead are the lone AAA unit in the CO's command lance, take the Blackjack.  It's a better AAA mech than units 20 tons heavier, and when there aren't aircraft and you have to engage ground units?  You're still better off than a JagerMech.  You're also better at plinking vehicles from range than a Rifleman (and equal to a JagerMech), though if you're packing flak ammo you're doing 1 damage/hit instead of 2.  Big loss.  ::)    To be clear, none of this necessarily means I'd want to take a Blackjack into close range combat with a Wolverine-6M.  It has its niche that it's very good at: AAA.  It's also serviceable at bullying smaller, less-well armed and armored units, and can even hold its own against units around its own size.  It's not a world-beater.  But it absolutely does not deserve its in-universe reputation.




A note on fighting Ravannion:  Bugs are so weak that a single AC/2 hit pretty much anywhere can make a difference.  A single 2-point hit anywhere on an STG-3R's torso or legs means the first ML hit goes internal.  2 points of damage to an arm or the head means that the first ML hit takes the area clean off.  And Ravannion was only a Tai-i.  Best I can tell from the fiction, his "hordes" replaced normal lances with 6-10 Wasps and/or Stingers.  On Xhosa, he deployed his hordes (given that he's a Tai-i, say 3 hordes of 30 bugs total) against 2 companies of mostly Blackjacks and Locusts, with the Blackjacks doing most of the fighting.  That's not really a big numbers advantage.  It's hardly a shock he'd have been cut up at range and then annihilated in close.  Heck, a company of Blackjacks could probably win that fight without the Locusts.
« Last Edit: 06 September 2019, 21:32:31 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #57 on: 07 September 2019, 19:53:46 »
Always had a soft spot for this beastie. I wanted to see a snubbie and IJJ or plasma version, but it always got outshined by other mechs
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CrossfirePilot

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #58 on: 07 September 2019, 20:52:29 »
At first I didn't like the blackjack because of my dislike for AC2s and AC5s. However, every time I played against one, I would get a CT golden BB TAC from it.  So I have learned that the lords of the dice are on the side of the Black Jack. On the other side of that I do like using the 1DB model.  You cant expect to go toe to toe with many heavier mechs, but you can really peal most things in your weight class and lighter apart.  Problem is that every time I use the BJ-1DB it goes down to a gyro crit.  EVERY TIME.

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Re: MotW: Blackjack
« Reply #59 on: 07 September 2019, 21:57:29 »
another note.  for it's time the BJ-2 was a nice little elemental hunter.  a pair of large lasers slagging of most of the armor off of two suits, and up to 8 SRMs either finishing them off or if you were playing with Critical hits against Battle Armor  Rules from MaxTech, you could potentially devastate multiple suits in a single go.  in  the way back I played against someone who loved using mechanized Battle armor, and the Blackjack and Javelin were usually added on top of the four mech lance instead of paying tonnage (cause BV 1 was terrible) for skill upgrades.
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