The *literally* Never-Seen

[Sartris]

Sure. Which is why I’m counting the 1992 coolant truck RS as the first canon instance of the first canon vehicle flamer, even with its high WTF quotient, and not the centipede in 3058

[beachhead1985]

Geeze, I wonder if we could find out who wrote the initial entries for the Behemoth and J.Edgar then and ask what was going on with the flamer variants then?

Who do we have left who was in on rules stuff back then?

Thread Note; I am adding the Blakist PPC Pike here from the Custom Rides thread, as in context; it appears to be a series-produced or depot-level variant and not a one-off. I think that's neat actually; as if they liked the Schrek so much that when they ran short, then took a similar chassis and made something similar.

[Sartris]

That’s the thing. There were no variants beyond a mention (much like the list of units you curate in this thread). They didn’t exist officially as playable units until 1996 so they didn’t have to conform to any rules.

I don’t think anyone is around from that far back. It’s been 30-35 years

[RifleMech]

Geeze, I wonder if we could find out who wrote the initial entries for the Behemoth and J.Edgar then and ask what was going on with the flamer variants then?

The Flamers for the J.Edgar and Behemoth sound more like custom jobs than official variants. I don't know how they would have built them them. Right now I'd say Flamer for J.Edgar and Vehicle Flamer for the Behemoth because of the engine types.

Who do we have left who was in on rules stuff back then?

It'd be nice if there were someone from back then who could answer questions. There's a few things I'd love to know more about.

Thread Note; I am adding the Blakist PPC Pike here from the Custom Rides thread, as in context; it appears to be a series-produced or depot-level variant and not a one-off. I think that's neat actually; as if they liked the Schrek so much that when they ran short, then took a similar chassis and made something similar.

Makes sense.

[Daryk]

The ICE J. Edgar variant could have clouded the Flamer variant's status.

[RifleMech]

Possibly but you'd either have to drop the engine rating and all the current weapons to fit in an ICE and Vehicle Flamer into the J.Edgar.

[Sartris]

If they even tried to build it with whatever clunky rules they had, they decided to just not

[Daryk]

Sarna does mention the ICE versions only went 8/12.

[Sartris]

None of Santa’s references predate the year 2000.

The flamer-equipped variants didn’t appear until RS:3025/26 in 1996, which account for the post-compendium vehicle flamer rules. Anything before that is fluff that lacks official stats (unless someone has a sheet I missed)

The stats are whatever you want them to be because if they ever existed, we never saw them

[Daryk]

Which is a little odd, since the original record sheet (for the stock variant) came out in 1992.

[Sartris]

Yup. There are a few variants for other units (like the hunter). The J Edgar only got the TRO stock variant. Some 3026 variants didn’t see print until 3039u (like the hover coolant truck mentioned originally in 3026)

[beachhead1985]

This thread answers our questions about the Early flamer, pretty much all of them.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=68271.0

I'm going to keep the Hermes Vehicle Flamer variants, because honestly; kinda cool and it would be neat to sort-of, *redeem* what now appears as mistakes in the old fluff. IMO; I like the minor tweaked variants, especially the ones that reek of Mad-Max Succession Wars made-do modifications.

[Sartris]

it's a shame they published such precious few examples to let us pick through the logic

[truetanker]

What if we gave the earlier ICE engined Flamers a free half ton ammo? That way they can at least conform to current construction rules.

TT

[Sartris]

this path leads us directly into custom rules, which has its own place.

we've had the flamer variants like the j. edgar and behemoth since 1996 so they've already been modified to conform to the construction rules for twenty-five years. no need for fudging anything.

the mystery is how those variants were constructed in their own paradigm. or if they were at all - it might have just been the writers tossing an off-handed reference to a flamer variant without ever actually making it with the construction rules. literally the only pre-1996 record sheet we have with a vehicle flamer and an ICE engine is the coolant truck so parsing the math is problematic without multiple data points.

it's not even emperically possible to see how standard flamers interacted with vehicle fusion engines in the old days because there is only one canon unit that both uses a flamer and goes over ten heat sinks - the puma - and it's clear they didn't add right (16 sinks for a ppc, 2 ML, 1 SL, and a flamer).

[Daryk]

Bad math wasn't exactly rare back in the FASA days...

[Sartris]

common enough to mess up the one example you could make any kind of extrapolation from, of course

[Colt Ward]

Well . . . new one afaik, the Star League era Pallas . . . probably a 90-95t assault with . . . a guass rifle in one arm?  And some sort of AC larger than a 20 series in the arm- maybe UAC?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

What's that mentioned in?

[Colt Ward]

Redemption & Malaice

[Empyrus]

The Star League didn't have bigger ACs than 20, no Ultras nor LB-types.
I did DL Redemption and Malice but i've no idea where i placed it, think i need to read it...

EDIT Found it, quick search for Pallas gives only one line with it. "...the upper body was that of a Pallas, a design
long lost over the centuries."
Nothing else is said about the Pallas, though given the context, we can assume it is a design in the assault 'Mech class but no weapons were given for it.

[Colt Ward]

Sorry phrased that wrong when I was flipping screens- smaller than the 20 series, it had range to work with the Gauss Rifle.  If it was Ultra, I know it was a 5 . . . but while the AC jammed, its questionable about it being a Ultra or just the nature of the frankenmech described.

[Empyrus]

If i recall FrankenMech rules correctly (and assuming that the short story follows the rules correctly), the center torso defines the weight class, and thus the Pallas must've been 95-tonner.

[Colt Ward]

Well, that thing had to be ugly . . .

[RanFelsnerAFFS]

Sarna actually assumes that said FrankenMech is supposed to be the Corsair from MWO.

[beachhead1985]

Added the Hurricane Air Car and CI-117 APC from HB:HS

Added Cyclops I Space Station

Will add the Pallas

[Empyrus]

Sarna notes that Redemption and Malice also mentions another 'Mech, the Slither.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Sarna actually assumes that said FrankenMech is supposed to be the Corsair from MWO.

Arena regularly assumes many things.  Like any wiki it's a good resource but not authoritative.

[Cache]

Sarna actually assumes that said FrankenMech is supposed to be the Corsair from MWO.

Not the Corsair... a Corsair. Meaning, a "generic Periphery term referring to heavy and assault class FrankenMechs."

[SteelRaven]

Sarna actually assumes that said FrankenMech is supposed to be the Corsair from MWO.

Not the Corsair... a Corsair. Meaning, a "generic Periphery term referring to heavy and assault class FrankenMechs."

It can't be the MWO Corsair for legal reasons, it already has been stated that PGI exclusive mechs will remain as such for the foreseeable future but the FreakenMech in qestion was defiantly a nod to the design.