Author Topic: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament  (Read 11269 times)

marcussmythe

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On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« on: 04 June 2018, 09:27:45 »
Has anyone had any play experience using Arrow IV as a primary, direct-fire armament for vehicles (and/or mechs), coupled with a TAG on every unit for self-designating?  Use them with normal mobility and armor, as if it was a 15 ton, 5 shot per ton weaopn, no different than an AC 20 (with which it compares well).

While certainly heavy and ammo-intensive, a vehicle mounted Arrow IV has a direct fire range (with homing missiles) of around 17 - and the TAG that locks that missile has a range of 15.  Consider that in a lance or greater sized element, a few TAGs probably hit... and you probably have a valid TAG Target within direct fire range and outside of 6, allowing you to direct fire that 20 point slap on a 4+.

And of course, if you cant get people in range, well, then you are 'stuck' with having an on board full launcher on every heavy unit on your side.  Blow up whichever part of the map your opponent is on.

My thought is, especially in the early clan invasion era, a cheap as chips IS Heavy Tank with an ICE, an Arrow IV or two, and a TAG could go a long way to eroding the range/mobility advantages of a clan force.  If it stays outside of your TAG range, aim for the hex with HE or Cluster.  Within tag range, one tag hit means most of your force hits that poor guy for 20.  If they close within 7 - you tag the guy on you, your buddy tags the guy on him, and you scratch each others back.  Hey, at least you made the MadCats play your game.

Thoughts?

Luciora

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #1 on: 04 June 2018, 09:52:54 »
I had built a custom clan tech Cyclops around an Arrow launcher when alot younger,  and not fully aware of on board artillery rules.  Needless to say, it was a very interesting battle with shots ending up somehow hitting hexes behind the firing unit, as well as some friendly fire. 

Good times.

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #2 on: 04 June 2018, 10:08:44 »
Early TW artillery rules had that could happen . . . until the pointy pitchforks convinced people otherwise.
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #3 on: 04 June 2018, 15:23:57 »
Ok, so this was a bit of a goose chase, but I figured it out (maybe... I think. I'm not very smart so I get confused a lot)

Arrow IV homing rounds do NOT target a hex (as is required for direct fire), but a mapsheet (TO, 354) - So the firing unit targets its own map. the TAG rules for Arrow IV on pg 354 say that "If an on-board Arrow IV launcher using homing missiles also mounts TAG, the unit may designate a target and fire its homing missiles against it in the same turn." This makes direct-fire (i.e. less than 17 hexes) necessary because the range of TAG is fewer than 17 hexes and the TAG to missile impact takes place in the same turn.

So yes, bombs away at short range. There's not even scatter if you miss! "On the turn the Arrow IV Homing Missile arrives, the fi ring player rolls 2d6, on a result
of 4+ it strikes the map, on a 2 or 3 the missile fails to hit the map and is lost." (TO, 354).

Since TO states Arrow IV acts like other artillery unless explicitly stated in the rules, I assume it is also subject to the limitation of not being able to fire at units within 6 hexes.

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marcussmythe

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #4 on: 04 June 2018, 16:05:02 »
That maps to my understanding and to the Megamek implementation.

I was just hoping to hear other people’s results, because though Ive been testing sgainst Princess (the Megamek bot, and not horrible)...

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #5 on: 04 June 2018, 16:22:17 »
Pretty much but . . . I think you can TAG something closer and it will pull the Homing round closer.
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marcussmythe

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #6 on: 04 June 2018, 16:39:13 »
Pretty much but . . . I think you can TAG something closer and it will pull the Homing round closer.

Well, if the homing round was fired indirectly the prior round by you or someone else, it doesnt care how close you are on round X+1.   The Artillery cannot fire closer than 7 hexes, and cannot direct fire past 17.. but nothing keeps you from indirect firing at range 18, for a next-turn arrival, on round X, and then closing in the next round into direct fire range.  With some planning, you can get impact from two rounds per launcher on the same turn - and a very surprised look on your targets face.

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #7 on: 04 June 2018, 16:55:34 »
I have done that with unguided rounds.  They interpretation difference is mapsheet . . . with guided rounds you do not fire at a specific place, you fire at the map sheet . . . so you designate it 7 hexes away but you had TAG'd something 5 hexes away- its on the same mapsheet.
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #8 on: 04 June 2018, 17:08:27 »
That happens regularly on my server. Artillery is a primary support type. It's a VERY strong weapon, especially when your opponent isn't using anything to directly counter it (Aerospace/Conventional fighters, VTOL, etc.).
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #9 on: 04 June 2018, 17:30:54 »
I’m a big proponent of artillery cannons against super mobile light mechs.

Yes, your +4 TMM is very impressive. 7s to hit

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marcussmythe

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #10 on: 04 June 2018, 18:43:13 »
I’m a big proponent of artillery cannons against super mobile light mechs.

Yes, your +4 TMM is very impressive. 7s to hit

Another very handy tool against the superior mobility opponents.  If either system had the reach to handle the ‘jumps 10 and has an ER LLas’ crowd, Id be sold hard - but for some reason (game balance!) an artillery shell takes more than 10 seconds to fly 500 meters.

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #11 on: 05 June 2018, 10:52:30 »
Has anyone had any play experience using Arrow IV as a primary, direct-fire armament for vehicles (and/or mechs), coupled with a TAG on every unit for self-designating?  Use them with normal mobility and armor, as if it was a 15 ton, 5 shot per ton weaopn, no different than an AC 20 (with which it compares well).

While certainly heavy and ammo-intensive, a vehicle mounted Arrow IV has a direct fire range (with homing missiles) of around 17 - and the TAG that locks that missile has a range of 15.  Consider that in a lance or greater sized element, a few TAGs probably hit... and you probably have a valid TAG Target within direct fire range and outside of 6, allowing you to direct fire that 20 point slap on a 4+.

And of course, if you cant get people in range, well, then you are 'stuck' with having an on board full launcher on every heavy unit on your side.  Blow up whichever part of the map your opponent is on.

My thought is, especially in the early clan invasion era, a cheap as chips IS Heavy Tank with an ICE, an Arrow IV or two, and a TAG could go a long way to eroding the range/mobility advantages of a clan force.  If it stays outside of your TAG range, aim for the hex with HE or Cluster.  Within tag range, one tag hit means most of your force hits that poor guy for 20.  If they close within 7 - you tag the guy on you, your buddy tags the guy on him, and you scratch each others back.  Hey, at least you made the MadCats play your game.

Thoughts?

I experimented with a couple of modified Rommel tanks, each with an AIV and a TAG.  The tactic I found worked best, was for one to tag, while the other fired.  It let me get some neat cornershots doing that.
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #12 on: 05 June 2018, 11:16:31 »
What about unguided arty? Snubtillery is still fairly rare in terms of number of designs that mount them, anyone tried using regular Arrow, Thumper, or Sniper as an assault gun, with IDF or long-range fire being a secondary concern?

Note: Very specifically talking about actual artillery, so please nothing about the snub cannons.

(Most Long Tom units are too slow and/or fragile for this kinda stuff, so I left them out.)
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Colt Ward

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #13 on: 05 June 2018, 11:21:39 »
Its one of my favorite tricks with the Bowman . . . especially if I can do a TOT between indirect fire and then move up to be able to direct fire the same hex for it landing the same turn- I understand its different phases but slapping with 40 points plus other weapons can wreck something hiding in trees.  I like the Bowman for it b/c it has a great movement and armor to be able to do it, better than the Naga IMO.

I have also used the 71st Mech Artillery for direct fire.  Puzzled my opponent when they did not move nor did they fire during the indirect phase.  Then it fired homing b/c I got the TAG in that 17 hexes . . . BOOM.  And my other one firing Cluster got close.
« Last Edit: 05 June 2018, 11:31:29 by Colt Ward »
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #14 on: 05 June 2018, 11:35:14 »
I've been wanting to try it in an SLDF force with Thors. Not the toughest, but they're fast, cheap, and can defend themselves. :)
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Colt Ward

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #15 on: 05 June 2018, 11:44:13 »
Yeah, IIRC the Bowman incident it was a Hell's Horses force against Falcons or Crusader Wolves as part of their carving out a OZ.  Landing that pair of A4s in the same hex along with either ERMLs and LRMs did a number on that heavy camping in the woods.  Went from a few LRM hits to missing a torso and laying on the ground in a single turn.

Another thing for folks to consider is . . . sure you have A4 on the battlefield . . . and you have a TAG'er or two (part of the reason I like the Sprint [INT]) but if you have deep ammo bins for the A4 unit then you can scare/herd someone based on where the TAG'ers are located.  And you never have to load homing rounds.
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marcussmythe

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #16 on: 05 June 2018, 12:17:52 »
I put a rough sample design intended for this use down in custom vehicles.  Not far off the Rommel, and with a lot of fluff for a pretty boring but I think worthwhile chassis.

But yes, the intent is as a direct-fire weapon, ideally guided by TAG, with longer range fire or support of nearby units as a value added proposition. 

I wonder, and maybe someone can speak to the realism of it - is combining your Artillery and Main Battle functions onto a single crew realistic, or fair?  Would we need something in the doctrine that has company A -not- firing its launchers dry in support of company B a few map sheets to the west, only to find itself in deep trouble when the bad guys come knocking?    Or can we simply pile on the ammo trucks in exchange for any unit engaged for a few map sheets in every direction able to scream for help from other map sheets?  Does going from Arrow IV to a heavier and lower damage but more ammo efficient Thumper (or Sniper or Long Tom??!!) help or hurt?

PS:  Can someone hold my hand through how to format a TRO on these forums?  I failed miserably.

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #17 on: 05 June 2018, 12:55:51 »
You will have to check where you are getting your Artillery damage numbers from . . . it changed IIRC to Long Tom is 25/15/5 for 2 rings of AoE, Sniper is 20/10, and Thumper is 15/5.  It makes the Sniper really my go to since it still gets better ammo counts than the A4 (10 per ton) and I have really wanted to try out the Phalanx ISV on table top.

Yes, SP tube artillery DOES have a doctrine for direct fire support . . . even for firing HE against tanks & vehicles, effectiveness varies however AND its a total GOTH plan situation.  Tube artillery's ammo count is not far off from what you can find on BT vehicles though I do not know the Paladin's storage.  Also yes, the ammo carriers tend to trundle along with the SP guns . . . and are quick to reload but that is a whole different sort of doctrine, BT vs IRL artillery and I can cover that if you want in general terms but the details will not apply to BT at all.
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #18 on: 05 June 2018, 13:26:51 »
Yeah.  Thumper is tempting for ammo endurance.  Sniper looks like a really great gun - for 5 more tons you get way more range and easier resupply.

But, and I get that SPGs have an ‘ohshit’ doctrine for when the enemy tank comes over the hill, that they hope to never in a million years use...  what Im more asking is could you have an MBT crew trained to do the MBT job but also do the arty job, respond to fire support calls, etc?  ‘Bravo Company is getting hit.  Alpha Company is unengaged but we dont want to have Alpha move out of position/its too far to have them respond in time.  Have Alpha support Bravo with fire’ - where both companies are on the line?

Or am I overthinking this?  Im just well aware of my civilian status and how often ‘good on paper’ is utter rubish in the field.  On -paper- having any engaged element able to call in massive fire support from every other element -sounds- good...

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #19 on: 05 June 2018, 13:51:04 »
A tank's gun is going to have way different firing characteristics than a tube artillery's gun.  The fire control computers are also going to be different in their formulas and the information you put in a tube's FDC is going to require more information- like meteorological data as well as various ammo type information.  Additionally, the tanks do not have the elevation required for their guns to get good indirect fire.  For example . . . the Abrams has a range with a experienced crew of a couple klicks from what I have heard there is a Russian wheeled gun that theoretically has the range of over 100 klicks and IIRC is considered the longest range tube artillery system .  If you want to see the cutting edge for Western tech, look at the cancelled Crusader program.

Could the crews be pulled out of tanks to man SP gun tracks?  Sure . . . driver will adjust with few problems BUT . . . the TC and loader are going to be very different.  They could function as a PHD crew (Push Here Dummy) but they would not be able to problem solve if anything outside their limited rout training happens.  In fact their reflex responses might actually be dangerous to themselves and their gun.
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #20 on: 05 June 2018, 14:10:17 »
A tank's gun is going to have way different firing characteristics than a tube artillery's gun.  The fire control computers are also going to be different in their formulas and the information you put in a tube's FDC is going to require more information- like meteorological data as well as various ammo type information.  Additionally, the tanks do not have the elevation required for their guns to get good indirect fire.  For example . . . the Abrams has a range with a experienced crew of a couple klicks from what I have heard there is a Russian wheeled gun that theoretically has the range of over 100 klicks and IIRC is considered the longest range tube artillery system .  If you want to see the cutting edge for Western tech, look at the cancelled Crusader program.

Could the crews be pulled out of tanks to man SP gun tracks?  Sure . . . driver will adjust with few problems BUT . . . the TC and loader are going to be very different.  They could function as a PHD crew (Push Here Dummy) but they would not be able to problem solve if anything outside their limited rout training happens.  In fact their reflex responses might actually be dangerous to themselves and their gun.

I've decided I'm over-thinking this.  The rules say an Arrow IV works certain ways at direct fire ranges, with drawbacks that I'm willing to accept (not a direct fire weapon past 17, danger close problems under 7).  The rules also say that it can lob missiles several map-sheets away, under the indirect artillery rules.  Issues of crew training and the needed additional automation/computer power/etc. can probably be handled for in-game purposes as fluff.

The fact that those drawbacks above exist probably goes nicely to the differences between the 'purpose built' anti-tank gun vs. artillery - by using an artillery piece in place of that anti-tank gun, you get the drawbacks accepted above.

Hmm.  Counter tactics.  Trying to maneuver just outside 17 and engage with longer range weaponry seems counter-intuitive - you've still got a lot of tubes raining a lot of damage down on you.  But maybe it could work.  Closing to under 7 is the obvious answer, but then your comfortably in TAG range, and a company could pretty easily scratch one another's back.

I wonder if TPTB will ever give us an improved, extended range TAG?

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #21 on: 05 June 2018, 14:15:48 »
You will have to check where you are getting your Artillery damage numbers from . . . it changed IIRC to Long Tom is 25/15/5 for 2 rings of AoE, Sniper is 20/10, and Thumper is 15/5.  It makes the Sniper really my go to since it still gets better ammo counts than the A4 (10 per ton) and I have really wanted to try out the Phalanx ISV on table top.

The Phalanx does not mount a Sniper Artillery Piece. It has the much smaller, shorter ranged, and weaker Sniper Cannon. 12-hex range, damage of 10/0.
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #22 on: 05 June 2018, 14:21:00 »
Sorry I did not clarify that, but yeah . . . I have not used the Snubs but that is the design that really really makes me want to try them.
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #23 on: 05 June 2018, 14:33:23 »
Sorry I did not clarify that, but yeah . . . I have not used the Snubs but that is the design that really really makes me want to try them.

The Snubs just dont.. do much for me.  I really, really like the range, espc as the inner sphere defending against a clan invasion.  "Hmm.  Your weapon goes 23.  Mine only goes 4.  Of course, those 4 are Map Sheets...".

Also, by varying the ammo load, an artillery piece, espec. an Arrow IV artillery piece, can be an air defense unit, an anti-armor direct-fire unit, or an artillery support unit.  My inner Logistics officer gets warm fuzzies from buying less equipment.

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #24 on: 05 June 2018, 14:38:58 »
Tube does the same things . . . the only difference between tube & missile afaik is the tube can do smoke, missile can do FASCAM & Inferno- and those are faction limited.  Plus the Sniper system like Marksmen SP guns have greater ammo endurance than something like the old SL A4 carriers.
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #25 on: 05 June 2018, 15:10:37 »
Do you allow auto-hit hexes for on-board artillery? I know this isn't the custom rules forum, but that seems like common sense for me. Why would they get auto hit hexes if deployed 10 hexes back (off-map), but not on the map?
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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #26 on: 05 June 2018, 21:24:28 »
Tube does the same things . . . the only difference between tube & missile afaik is the tube can do smoke, missile can do FASCAM & Inferno- and those are faction limited.  Plus the Sniper system like Marksmen SP guns have greater ammo endurance than something like the old SL A4 carriers.

Is there a tube version of the Arrow IV SAM?  Does Flak do the same job just as well?  Dont know those rules.

And for endurance... 15/5 is not 20/10, but good lordy - my Arrow IV design is going to get a Thumper refit.  Sure, less damage, but 60 Rounds.  What is this ‘logistics’ you speak of?  Ill reload after the campaign.

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #27 on: 05 June 2018, 21:28:26 »
Is there a tube version of the Arrow IV SAM?  Does Flak do the same job just as well?  Dont know those rules.

What is this ‘logistics’ you speak of?

insert 10 supply points, receive ammo (thank god for the chaos campaign i'm never going back to LegerTech ever again)

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #28 on: 05 June 2018, 21:40:45 »
insert 10 supply points, receive ammo (thank god for the chaos campaign i'm never going back to LegerTech ever again)

Oh, Ive no interest in playing ledgertech.  :)  But these things are real in my head, and having 60 ready rounds on board for my artillery-MBT makes me feel much better about its ability to fore support missions for the brigaide 10 mal sheets over while carrying enough bang to cover itself if the enemy comes over the hill.

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Re: On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament
« Reply #29 on: 05 June 2018, 21:43:10 »
i've never played a game (or even series of games) that require a unit to fire sixty rounds so this contingency does not enter my calculus... granted, few things enter my calculus besides having enough beef jerky and assorted cold beverages to last the length of the game so I'm probably not the bellwether to follow.

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