Author Topic: Mech design decisions that make no sense  (Read 145533 times)

Col Toda

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #270 on: 28 March 2019, 14:09:21 »
Common dont make sense designs are artifact of previous rules like any mech with 3+ tons of Anti missile systems . Others are mentality such as Clan batchal bidding process so having 1 ton of ammo for an LB 10 X or ATM launchers are not completely brainn dead just mostly so . That is the rationale for Some of the head scratching what were they thinking designs . You are not the first nor the last to notice this . So long as committees are involved it is inevitable.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #271 on: 28 March 2019, 14:49:29 »
Yeah, but there are many designs that don't make sense under any ruleset.
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #272 on: 28 March 2019, 17:01:16 »
Some mechs make sense under one set of rules, but not another.  The Werewolf is a Solaris VII design, made specifically for that game.  It is a 40 ton mech with 16 DHS.  Its weapons can produce a maximum of 12 heat (and then up to 4 from jumping).  Why???  Because Solaris VII allowed you to fire up to 4 times per turn.

Some mechs make sense under one set of rules, but not really in the fiction.  The Charger is designed to charge.  It's actually pretty effective on the tabletop in 3025 play.  But it doesn't make sense to build in the story because it only carries a handful of small lasers.  Physical attacks should be a lot more rare in the fiction than they are in the game.  Nobody would build a mech like that.

Some mechs make sense in the background, but not in the game rules.  Duke Jones' company got the contract to produce this new mech, so it is equipped with all the Jones Industrial parts that they can cram on it, even if that means carrying around three AC-5s.

Some mechs make sense for real life reasons, but not in the fiction.  A new TRO comes out and they want to put the latest technology on the mechs.  You gotta have a reason to buy the book, after all.  So we need an assault mech carrying the new Improved Pulse MRM launcher.  Or they've got this artwork and they gotta make something fit.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #273 on: 28 March 2019, 17:11:54 »
And that's why the discussion has been focused on designs that never made sense under any version of the rules and don't succeed at their stated purpose and not just oddities like the Daishi A's 3 tons of AMS ammo, since under the original AMS rules that made sense.

By contrast, the excessively thin armor on the Cerberus and rear-mounted machine guns didn't make sense at the time and still don't now.
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massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #274 on: 28 March 2019, 17:46:05 »
And that's why the discussion has been focused on designs that never made sense under any version of the rules and don't succeed at their stated purpose and not just oddities like the Daishi A's 3 tons of AMS ammo, since under the original AMS rules that made sense.

By contrast, the excessively thin armor on the Cerberus and rear-mounted machine guns didn't make sense at the time and still don't now.

???

I don't have my TROs with me, but Megamek lists the Cerberus as having 15 center rear and 10 side rear.  That's not too bad.  That's the same as the 3025 Atlas (actually 1 pt more in the center), which is a tough SOB.

Basically with a mech like that, you expect that you'll keep the big enemies in front of you.  But you might get an infantry unit or something ambush you from behind, and you need something to take care of them.

Caedis Animus

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #275 on: 28 March 2019, 19:07:52 »
Some mechs make sense under one set of rules, but not really in the fiction.  The Charger is designed to charge.  It's actually pretty effective on the tabletop in 3025 play.  But it doesn't make sense to build in the story because it only carries a handful of small lasers.  Physical attacks should be a lot more rare in the fiction than they are in the game.  Nobody would build a mech like that.
I thought the in-universe reason for the Charger being built like that was specifically so that the pilot was dissuaded from attacking other, heavier forces with it. The fact it could use the extra throw weight to beat down the odd Panther or something was just a bonus.

As to why the choice wasn't, say, two medium lasers or giving it a second hand actuator, is more fitting to the topic at hand.
« Last Edit: 28 March 2019, 19:10:07 by Caedis Animus »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #276 on: 28 March 2019, 19:10:38 »
???

I don't have my TROs with me, but Megamek lists the Cerberus as having 15 center rear and 10 side rear.  That's not too bad.  That's the same as the 3025 Atlas (actually 1 pt more in the center), which is a tough SOB.

Basically with a mech like that, you expect that you'll keep the big enemies in front of you.  But you might get an infantry unit or something ambush you from behind, and you need something to take care of them.

It's got thin armor everywhere else.  The mech is criminally unarmored: it's got 19 on the arms and legs- if anything, the mech devotes too much armor to the rear while neglecting the front.  The mech was allegedly built to fight the Clans and the MGs were supposedly to fend off Elementals.
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Paul

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #277 on: 28 March 2019, 19:12:13 »
The fact it could use the extra throw weight to beat down the odd Panther or something was just a bonus.

Panther: Hah! I have found you, sneaky scout!
Charger:  :blank:
Panther: Oh. Crap.
Charger: Yeah.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #278 on: 28 March 2019, 19:16:43 »
On the other hand, you have the embarrassing situations where the Charger is in hilly terrain and gets killed by a Stinger with its mighty medium laser.
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BloodRose

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #279 on: 28 March 2019, 19:52:21 »
Well, technically the Charger is not designed to charge, it was designed as a super sized scout. Its a recon Mech, which does sort of make the small lasers make sense.... Until you realise those could have been Medium's instead. Once you get later variants it does get better, but the early ones are utterly daft.
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AdmiralObvious

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #280 on: 28 March 2019, 20:41:43 »
Well, technically the Charger is not designed to charge, it was designed as a super sized scout. Its a recon Mech, which does sort of make the small lasers make sense.... Until you realise those could have been Medium's instead. Once you get later variants it does get better, but the early ones are utterly daft.
The issue is mostly "why use a  small when I can use a medium" on pretty much everything. The only point where that changed was when Pulse Lasers were "mainstream", and even then you only use the small to face infantry.

The newer models did improve a lot, mostly due to the fact that you've got room to do so, though in a lot of cases you've got to slow the 'Mech down quite a lot, until XL becomes viable as an engine, or you strip off a lot of armor.

massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #281 on: 28 March 2019, 20:59:41 »
It's got thin armor everywhere else.  The mech is criminally unarmored: it's got 19 on the arms and legs- if anything, the mech devotes too much armor to the rear while neglecting the front.  The mech was allegedly built to fight the Clans and the MGs were supposedly to fend off Elementals.

Ah, misread your post.  Yeah, machine guns don't do crap to Elementals.  I'd say maybe it's a case of designers still not being used to the new technology, or understanding the post-Clan battlefield.  It's pretty thin, even for a 3025 assault.  However, when you remember it's got 4/6 movement, it's possible the designers were thinking of it as a heavier Warhammer.  It's better protected than that design, with better firepower.  Yeah it has XL, but again, it's part of the first wave of new mech designs.

Kit deSummersville

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #282 on: 29 March 2019, 08:50:58 »
The mech was allegedly built to fight the Clans and the MGs were supposedly to fend off Elementals.

That happened with naval ships when they built all sorts of stuff to stop torpedoes...that didn't actually do anything to stop torpedoes.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #283 on: 29 March 2019, 09:10:47 »
machine guns don't do crap to Elementals.

a little known flaw in the elemental phenotype. if you tickle them with a bullet in just they right spot they die of uncontrollable laughter

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It's pretty thin, even for a 3025 assault

Hellbringer: suicidal armor
Cerberus: hold my beer

personally i only run the -5M

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #284 on: 29 March 2019, 10:06:22 »
That happened with naval ships when they built all sorts of stuff to stop torpedoes...that didn't actually do anything to stop torpedoes.

Did they continue installing such systems on ships after watching battlefield footage of the torpedoes going right through the "anti-torpedo" defenses while giving the camera a hand signal commonly seen on the New Jersey Turnpike?
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #285 on: 29 March 2019, 10:35:30 »
Did they continue installing such systems on ships after watching battlefield footage of the torpedoes going right through the "anti-torpedo" defenses while giving the camera a hand signal commonly seen on the New Jersey Turnpike?

Yup, sometimes decades after they were found obsolete.
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Col Toda

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #286 on: 05 April 2019, 08:38:21 »
What is so hard to understand . For some the point of building an expensive war machine is to get graft and employ constituents to have a tight combat machine up front means the whole process of graft and corruption cannot be revisted as soon as possible . Boondoggles happen in the real world . Satirical movies outlining them like " Pentagon Wars " are few and far between because it is too true . It is a miracle that Battletech does not have even more than those outlined in this post . Most CC designs are tight is a completely worthless design would have consequences ranging from loss of Citizenship , prison , public exucution or secret ritual sacrifice . Everwhere else it is bussiness  as usual . For the Clans poor design results in loss of status within and without your caste . It would be very strange if the game had Zero bad designs it would lack realism or any understanding of the political animals inhabiting any universe .

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #287 on: 05 April 2019, 08:49:52 »
i mean clearly the engineers should have punched the numbers into SSW first

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Kovax

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #288 on: 05 April 2019, 09:45:11 »
If there's a major factory in your district that produces AC/5 class autocannons, you're probably going to vote in favor of that new design with twin AC/5s, as opposed to the "distinguished gentleman with the stupid idea" across the aisle who wants to put in dual LLs on account of a factory in his own district producing those.  The military has called for a PPC-equipped design, but that doesn't have any support from the parliament or ruling council, so the military will just have to figure out how to use what they're given instead.

Real world examples include the US Army listing 12 military bases for possible closure back in the 1990s, which it claimed served absolutely no strategic purpose.  All 12 were in the districts of influential congressmen, and ultimately only 4 bases were closed, NONE of them from the list.  Politics and profit are far more powerful motivating factors than effectiveness when it comes to military hardware, which many of the original BT designs reflect.  Yes, they DO make sense, but not necessarily from a purely military perspective, and especially not when you're comparing specialist units of various types to "line" units for their suitability at front-line combat in close quarters.

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« Last Edit: 05 April 2019, 09:47:03 by Kovax »

Sabelkatten

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #289 on: 05 April 2019, 10:11:03 »
The problem is decisions that truly makes no sense. Nobody puts black powder guns on a modern military unit, even if they would be very good for somebody.

massey

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #290 on: 05 April 2019, 10:37:31 »
The problem is decisions that truly makes no sense. Nobody puts black powder guns on a modern military unit, even if they would be very good for somebody.

Sure, but what unit in Battletech can we definitely say is the equivalent?

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #291 on: 05 April 2019, 11:15:53 »
you can build bow-equipped infantry platoons  ;D

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #292 on: 05 April 2019, 11:32:31 »
you can build bow-equipped infantry platoons  ;D
Can those actually damage BattleMechs? If so, how many do you need? Like, is it something only the Marian Hegemony would be able to do?

Apocal

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #293 on: 05 April 2019, 11:54:34 »
The problem is decisions that truly makes no sense. Nobody puts black powder guns on a modern military unit, even if they would be very good for somebody.

Well, the thing is that in real life even bad designs (typically) gradually get better but at the cost of coalescing (or homogenizing) around a few key design parameters that actually matter. That's a bad thing for having a wide variety of well-differentiated mechs though. Just look at the relative diversity of AFV design concepts of early WW2 compared to the post-war decade and then compared to nowadays, where something like four basic models constitute something like 70% of all actively serving MBTs in the world (IIRC).

And veteran players of TT tend to not like min-maxed designs, which is pretty much what happens over the service life of military equipment, so even "bad" units typically get better -- in a few cases much better -- as they get upgraded, rather than just as bad but in a different way.
« Last Edit: 05 April 2019, 11:57:54 by Apocal »

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #294 on: 05 April 2019, 12:10:45 »
Can those actually damage BattleMechs? If so, how many do you need? Like, is it

technically speaking they can, but you can't put enough troops in a platoon to get to 1 damage

if you use a .04 damage/trooper weapon like a Blade (Archaic Sword) you can do 1 damage until falling below 15 troopers
« Last Edit: 05 April 2019, 12:14:52 by Sartris »

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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #295 on: 05 April 2019, 12:39:52 »
The problem is decisions that truly makes no sense. Nobody puts black powder guns on a modern military unit, even if they would be very good for somebody.

Not as a gun perhaps, but a black powder landmine or claymore would still work . . . though not be as effective and have other problems.

Besides, we are not talking about a propellant difference.

You are more like saying . . .


Nobody uses unguided rockets any more!


ahem-
Colt Ward
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Apocal

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #296 on: 05 April 2019, 13:03:01 »
Not as a gun perhaps, but a black powder landmine or claymore would still work . . . though not be as effective and have other problems.

Besides, we are not talking about a propellant difference.

You are more like saying . . .


Nobody uses unguided rockets any more!


ahem-


The difference is in military effectiveness. The unguided rockets of the Ming Dynasty couldn't hold a candle to the Katyusha, which doesn't even compare to a Uragan, Smersh or Tornado nowadays. The unguided bit is technically true, but missing the point about relative battlefield effectiveness. You could say an AC/5 (for one easy example) is more like a Katyusha than a Ming-era rocket launcher in terms of how good it is, but you can't say it is anything acceptable compared to post-Clan invasion tech. It isn't even really good compared with other introtech options.

Kit deSummersville

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #297 on: 05 April 2019, 13:36:20 »
I dare say you don't see a flood of AC/5s in post-invasion designs.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #298 on: 05 April 2019, 13:40:42 »
Its semantics . . . I can say the UAC/5, LB-5X and RAC/5 all follow downstream . . . and of course the LAC/5.
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Re: Mech design decisions that make no sense
« Reply #299 on: 05 April 2019, 13:43:17 »
the AC/5 is indeed being phased out. it's appeared on a paltry 24 units that debuted 3050 or later and only four times after the 3060s

9 3050s dropship upgades
2 Mule PWS variants (3068)
1 Superheavy WiGE (Ryu)
1 workmech mod (Uni)
6 Mechs
5 vehicles

only the Mongrel (3092) and Scapha F hovertank mount them after the jihad.

But what about the LAC/5! Not much more popular - 48 units, though you see it much more frequently after 3079 than the standard model. that's not saying much though - the light ppc is far more popular - ~150 designs utilize it and it didn't appear until 3067.

Its semantics . . . I can say the UAC/5, LB-5X and RAC/5 all follow downstream . . . and of course the LAC/5.

it's not - the LB-5 is a far more viable AA gun and vehicle bricker. they're different weapon systems.
« Last Edit: 05 April 2019, 13:45:33 by Sartris »

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