Author Topic: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?  (Read 18544 times)

Cubby

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Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« on: 14 April 2014, 13:42:52 »
At long last, I've plowed through all of the GDL saga.

The first trilogy was as good as people claim; I can see why it's achieved a beloved place in the hearts of BT fans.

I didn't hate "Blood of Heroes"--had it ended up as the intro to "the next generation" as it seemed meant to be, I'd have even liked it more. That said, I'm glad I had "Day of Heroes" to consult for background between 3029 and 3056.

"Tactics of Duty" was...weird. Seemed intent on winding back some of the previous book. (Take care, Davis Clay!)

"Operation: Excalibur" was more in line with what I expected from late-middle era BT novels. I'd have been interested in seeing where it'd have led. (The author bio promises new adventures coming in 1997...)

"The Dying Time" was what it was. One day, maybe I'll learn what happened to cause Keith to part ways from the series. I'm not much for Gressman's writing, but this time he seemed to have sanded off some of the edges in his earlier work--no one said "malf" at all! I don't envy him being the one to have to pick up a beloved cast of characters six years after their last appearance and kill them all off under a (supposed?) word limit. The ending felt pretty rushed, as if the word limit came up and he had to leave it at "then there was a big fight and everyone died." A shame after the detail and cleverness of the earlier books.

So, a question: where can I find other nuggets of GDL fiction or fluff? Sarna cites a page in the TRO 3058U that I'll have to check when I get home. Someone somewhere mentioned a story which revealed the fate of Alex Carlyle. Maybe there's more somewhere in BattleCorps?
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Frabby

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #1 on: 14 April 2014, 13:57:45 »
The fate of Alexander Carlyle hasn't been spelled out anywhere...
But Herbert A. Beas, while he was still Line Developer, has made it abundantly clear that there is no intention of resurrecting the Gray Death Legion and that he personally considers Alexander Carlyle one of the many thousand unnamed corpses on Tharkad in the aftermath of the Jihad.
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Cubby

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #2 on: 14 April 2014, 17:33:09 »
TRO 3058U, pg. 22:

"Many expected Alex Carlyle would return to rebuild the unit his father created, but with the FedCom Civil War raging, the LAAF was unwilling to release Alex from his commission. Then the Carlyle family was stripped of their title and lands on Glengarry, and even if Alex could raise the funds, the Mercenary Review and Bonding Commission regretfully pointed out that it lacked a rating code low enough for a reconstituted Legion. Without the legendary Grayson Death Carlyle to offset it, the Legion’s habit of breaking contracts and turning on their employers had left their reputation soiled beyond redemption."

And then Alex was standing too close to the the Tharkad nuclear reactor when it went critical. The end.

All good things. I suppose FASA et al thought it was important to get one more GDL installment in before the "end" of the CBT book line to properly close the circle begun with "Decision at Thunder Rift." Better than nothing, I guess.

I'm really interested now to know what went down IRL that caused Keith to not continue with the books he evidently planned back in '96-97.
« Last Edit: 14 April 2014, 20:54:15 by Cubby »
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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #3 on: 14 April 2014, 18:24:06 »
I don't know, I don't have any information from the inside, but I'd guess ... money.

Basically authors get paid less for working in someone else's franchise universe. Whereas if they write their own universes, they get all the royalties. A quick check of Wikipedia shows his writing output really took off in the 1990s, writing under different names & in several different genres. Why take half the royalties (guess) for another BattleTech book, when he could take all the royalties for a WarStrider book?

As mentioned, just a guess.
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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #4 on: 14 April 2014, 20:06:27 »
There was one more GDL story you may have missed - "Legion Team" in the Shrapnel anthology.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

Cubby

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #5 on: 15 April 2014, 06:49:15 »
I don't know, I don't have any information from the inside, but I'd guess ... money.

And that's probably a good guess. I wasn't implying that there was a direct falling-out or problem that caused the split, so greener pastures seems like a probable alternative.

I was perusing Keith's personal website last night and noticed the same increase in mid- to late-90s work. It's a bit surprising that he'd dump the GDL work considering how involved he was in the early BT universe and with things like the BattleTechnology mag, but I'm sure he had his reasons and it's not for me to say whether they're valid.

If he's contactable by email, I wonder if a politely-worded note would receive an answer. He seems to still be making regular con appearances, so there's always that.
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snakespinner

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #6 on: 31 May 2014, 01:37:03 »
If I remember rightly from a previous board article, there had been a pay dispute between FASA and Keith.
Loren was trying to contact him when CGL started up but no luck.
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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #7 on: 31 May 2014, 03:59:41 »
TRO 3058U, pg. 22:

"Many expected Alex Carlyle would return to rebuild the unit his father created, but with the FedCom Civil War raging, the LAAF was unwilling to release Alex from his commission. Then the Carlyle family was stripped of their title and lands on Glengarry, and even if Alex could raise the funds, the Mercenary Review and Bonding Commission regretfully pointed out that it lacked a rating code low enough for a reconstituted Legion. Without the legendary Grayson Death Carlyle to offset it, the Legion’s habit of breaking contracts and turning on their employers had left their reputation soiled beyond redemption."

I don't see where the Legion had such a habit.  They only did it twice; and both times, it was after some petty noble tried to pin atrocities on them, murder them, and steal their landhold.  Exactly how much abuse are mercenaries expected to take from their employers before the MRBC deems it acceptable to engage in self-defence?

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #8 on: 05 June 2014, 08:25:59 »
Grayson Carlyle made a big mistake when he turned coat on his contract and was actually brought up on charges for doing so. A contract is a contract no matter how the nobles are treating there citizens. And its even worse when your a noble yourself and essentially attack a fellow noble. He was lucky just to lose his unit. Lets not even bring up the fact that the GDL couldn't even defend Glengerry from Skye Separatists and needed the Northwind Highlanders to bail them out. Which brought up other issues that eventually made Northwind revolt as well. The mercenarys job is to do the job no matter there personnel feelings. I was always surprised the GDL had such a high rating as they did.
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Sandslice

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #9 on: 05 June 2014, 13:35:19 »
Grayson Carlyle made a big mistake when he turned coat on his contract and was actually brought up on charges for doing so. A contract is a contract no matter how the nobles are treating there citizens.
However, is a contract a contract no matter how the nobles are treating their mercenaries?  I can see that for the company store; but not so much when it's attempted murder, ordering a repeat of the Kentares Massacre, and using either obedience (atrocities and war crimes!) or refusal (broken contract) as a pretense for launching into a pre-planned war against the mercenaries' landhold.

And yes, he was brought up on charges and even convicted; but that was a ploy by Katherine, so that she could use Grayson to uncover Gareth's plots against the Lyran Alliance (pretty much the plot of Operation: Excalibur.)

As for the Skye Rebels in '56, VSD gave Glengarry to the GDL in order to provoke the rebels into attacking.  They did - with a rather substantial force, while the bulk of the GDL away; Grayson's regent governor (DeVries) in fact betrayed the Legion and arrested most of the officers, forcing Alexander Carlyle to start up a long guerrilla campaign until the rest of the GDL could return to support.  VSD hired and deployed the Northwind Highlanders to make sure that the Skye regiment was extra squashed at the end (so it's hard to determine whether they were needed - Victor was going to send them anyway, because of his vendetta against Ryan Steiner.)

I don't mind the GDL being gone so much.  Admittedly, I would have preferred the version where Operation Bulldog shatters Grayson's faith in humanity - a critical motivator for him - and he just hangs it up in shock.  Less unjustified-if-you-think-about-it smear campaigning, and less making the setting look like the mercenary code is purely deontic (for anyone other than Wolf's Dragoons, that is.)

@OP: I don't recall any stories for Alexander, just a statement that he got a bridge dropped on him at Tharkad.

The only other materials I can think of that you might want to check out are the old FASA Gray Death Legion scenario pack, and HTP: Glengarry - these are basically playable versions of the earlier novels.  :)
« Last Edit: 05 June 2014, 20:09:17 by Sandslice »

Stormlion1

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #10 on: 09 June 2014, 23:35:03 »
Mercs are accountable to there employers and have to deal with many issues when dealing with them. The Dragoons were treated badly while in the employee of the Combine and actually waited to the end date of there contract to begin real combat against the. The Kell Hounds were placed in reservations just before the Clan Invasion and Phelan was beaten by local citizens. In many ways mercs have to deal with it or break contract. As for the company store well the mercs hold the pocket book its up to them to decide where they shop. A deal from there employer with strings attached or the arms merchant on Outreach or Galatea.
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Sandslice

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #11 on: 10 June 2014, 10:05:03 »
I understand all that.  "They ordered me to hold this line," sure.  "They ordered me to break my unit's command integrity" - take that to the MRBC if you have contract terms.  "They're company storing me" - suck it up buttercup.

I just draw a line at illegal orders (notably genocide) and the right to self-defence (not merely self-preservation; but what Gareth was doing made it a matter of self-defence.)  But maybe that's just me.

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #12 on: 15 June 2014, 21:57:48 »
All very true, but in the end a merc unit that shoots at its paymasters isn't trusted and has a hard time finding employment. It doesn't matter the reason in the end.
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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #13 on: 28 December 2015, 17:23:24 »
Idk, I'm a bit lost as to how they were assessed as having a spotty record.  But the defense of their contract was, in my opinion, deliberately left out of the lore because it would have then allowed for them to continue.  See, when they went to Caledonia Grayson didn't have to admit anything of what had happened.  On top of that, firing upon civilians goes against the Ares Conventions am I right?  How the heck is it that in every other book this is used in defense of contracts and such, but here the GDL acts as if it is oblivious about it.  Another thing, it would have been smart to have that kind of clause in their contracts: "No civilian engagements..." and such.  After a few of those missions, the could have easily re-negotiated contracts or had it there to begin with.  I cannot see how they had a spotty record if we were to use the defenses that the other units use.  But since these were not stated in the GDL books, as such, apparently it is considered as if they did turn on their employers enough to warrant little to no rating.  For crying out loud, Grayson even had an amicable relationship with non other than Jaime Wolf.  Doesn't make sense at all...GDL was singled out in a way to be stacked against and destroyed if possible (a mistake imo).  Would've been great to see one of the greatest Merc Units live long enough to test their mettle during the Jihad next to the other famous units.  What a great thing to imagine that is omg lol  :D
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Bren

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #14 on: 28 December 2015, 19:14:58 »
Interesting entry on Blaine Pardoe's blog a while back;

http://bpardoe.blogspot.ca/2012/01/twilight-of-clans-that-never-was.html


Cubby

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #15 on: 29 December 2015, 13:28:44 »
Wow, been awhile since I originally posted this.

In the meantime, I did actually reach out to Bill Keith as I'd considered upthread and stuck up a correspondence, during which he told me his perspective of these same developments. Suffice to say, it's always interesting (and a bit sad) how real-world factors can influence the works we enjoy so much.

But! We did get "Starfire" in 25 Years of Art and Fiction, and the GDL is in the new Combat Manual: Mercenaries, so: gone, but not forgotten.
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JasperIceCondor

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #16 on: 13 September 2018, 21:51:19 »
I just draw a line at illegal orders (notably genocide) and the right to self-defence (not merely self-preservation; but what Gareth was doing made it a matter of self-defence.)  But maybe that's just me.
That's how I saw it too. GDC had a strong moral compass, he would never pick a contract that would compromise his integrity. He started his mercenary company to fight Draconis Combine, killers of his father, and stuck with helping Katherine Steiner-Davion partly because his family served Lyrian Commonwealth for what sounded like generations (and yes, she used his wrath well for her own benefit). Sure he was a mercenary but more than that he was a bit of a knightly figure.

It was, however, very sad reading "Dying Times," especially the part where Lori Carlyle got killed by a freaking grenade from some PBI. Yet, this is Battletech. Heroes don't always die as heroes and those who deserve to live often times don't. Something that always attracted me in this Universe is that not every story has a happy end.

Frabby

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #17 on: 14 September 2018, 00:19:24 »
The GDL may have been a player favorite but in-universe they were a small fry unit that had one interesting and fateful moment on Helm and an unremarkable career otherwise.
I like how Keith kept things in perspective.

In-universe, his fellow mercenary commanders actually regarded Grayson as an idiot for handing out the memory core for free. There's a section in a sourcebook somewhere where the author chastises and ridicules him for that blunder.
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Black_Knyght

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #18 on: 14 September 2018, 12:29:49 »
The fate of Alexander Carlyle hasn't been spelled out anywhere...
But Herbert A. Beas, while he was still Line Developer, has made it abundantly clear that there is no intention of resurrecting the Gray Death Legion and that he personally considers Alexander Carlyle one of the many thousand unnamed corpses on Tharkad in the aftermath of the Jihad.

THAT seriously sucks, since the Gray Death Legion was one of the most interesting aspects of mercenaries and one of the things that got me interested in the game. There was a lot of good character development and history in them, and to just casually trash them like they have is disappointing.

But then pretty much EVERYTHING they elected to do in the Jihad era has been so I guess it shouldn't be that big of a surprise.

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #19 on: 15 September 2018, 01:36:59 »
Shrug. The later books weren't nearly as good as the first three if you ask me, so the GDL had pretty much lost its special status long before they were killed off and long before the Jihad era was used to cut a lot of dead stuff. I (mostly) liked the Jihad. And not getting a "happily ever after" nor mutating into another Kell Hounds, Wolf's Dragoons or Black Thorns munchkin zombie unit was the best ending the GDL could get, from a narrative viewpoint.
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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #20 on: 21 September 2018, 17:35:27 »
I don't see where the Legion had such a habit.  They only did it twice; and both times, it was after some petty noble tried to pin atrocities on them, murder them, and steal their landhold.  Exactly how much abuse are mercenaries expected to take from their employers before the MRBC deems it acceptable to engage in self-defence?
Mercenary's Star: He took the Legion into direct combat with Combine forces in violation of his contract with the Free Verthandi movement. While this was acting to save the rebel forces from destruction, it was in direct violation of the contract, which specified the Legion was there for training of the Free Verthandi forces only, with allowance only for self defense. (and given that defending the Phobos's crash-landing site got him in hot water with his employers, the self defense clause was apparently not all that strong.) while the Free Verthandi rebels didn't have a chance to report him to Comstar and Galatea's mercenary board, and later events would cause the people of Verthandi to ignore what had happened, when the details of the campaign got out to the wider mercenary market, you can bet employer's took notice that the Legion went against contract and did so without even the nicety of being able to claim they were following their employer's orders.

Price of Glory: After the unit was accused of warcrimes, rather than report to their employer's as ordered, the legion diverted to their landhold and conducted a running engagement with forces of their employer's. that the warcrimes were false and the forces in question were in the middle of conducting illegal warcrimes of their own is not really as big of an issue as the fact the legion once again directly violated orders from their employer's and in so doing, violated their contract. This is especially important given that while the legion was official cleared of all charges for the warcrime, the exact events as to how they were framed, by who, and the finer details of the events on Helm were not made public, so the majority of the inner Sphere is going to perceive them as "the legion was accused of warcrimes, and then instead of reporting to the capitol for investigation and trial, they went to Helm and shot up their own allies. but they found a star league cache, so the FWL swept it under the rug"

Tactics of Duty: Governor Wilmarth of Caledonia hired the Legion to assist in defusing a rebellion. the Legion refuses, and takes down Wilmarth's forces, then engages Lyran regulars who had also deployed to stop the rebellion. that the Legion had been ordered to commit warcrimes in order to uphold a governor who was guilty of further warcrimes, and then fought a skye separatist force that had been fomenting the rebellion in the first place, would not be a widely spread fact.

Operation Excalibur: the Legion attacks and forces lyran regulars who had attacked Glengarry in retaliation for the events on Caledonia. the Legion subsequently is stripped of landhold for violation of contract. they then get hired to help defend hesperus II, but then turns on his employer. that his employer's were skye seperatists wouldn't get out until much later (and the full details were still classified by the LAAF), and the fact that The Legion seeking that employment in the first place was due to orders from kathrine Steiner was top secret. so as far as the Inner Sphere is concerned, the Legion just hired onto and then betrayed three employers in rapid succession (the Fedcom, Governor Wilmarth, and Lord Gareth.)

the only book where the Legion doesn't break contract was Day of Heroes. can't even claim Decision at thunder Rift, because greyson signs on with the Trellwan Lancers (the local governor's personal unit) to fight the pirates that had destroyed Greyson's parent's unit, but betrayed the Lancers when the DCMS showed up, defeated the pirates, and the local governor took in with Duke Ricol..

so yeah, the Grey Death Legion's reputation for breaking contracts is rightly earned, as far as the public record is concerned. the details that justify those contract breaks are stuff we know from the books, but in setting are either not well known, or classified.

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #21 on: 22 September 2018, 11:41:47 »
You're cherry-picking which information will or won't get out by 3067, and I completely disagree with how you're characterizing that information. The way the MRBC evaluates contract breaches wouldn't penalize the GDL's Dragoon rating in the way you've suggested - what was their rating in 3058, which negates how many of those novels? How "the market" reacts is a separate issue, but even "the market" knows what mercs and employers are like and will therefore take a more nuanced and realistic view of the GDL's actions.
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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #22 on: 25 September 2018, 20:47:00 »
Gray Death Technologies on Furillo II. Sounds like a good spot for a rebirth. Distant cousin maybe?
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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #23 on: 26 September 2018, 14:12:08 »
Gray Death Technologies on Furillo II. Sounds like a good spot for a rebirth. Distant cousin maybe?
The merc unit's technical staff getting into a new line of work.
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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #24 on: 03 October 2018, 10:10:57 »
For sourcebook fiction, Mercenary's Handbook 3055 has a chapter and extensive TO&E about the GDL. Not exactly what you're looking for, but an interesting extra info.
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Marveryn

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #25 on: 30 March 2019, 22:27:55 »
ok I just found the new site after not finding it in classicbattletech.com.. so am a bit behind .. that why I revive this a bit as I want to put my own thought on the legion.  I understand the need to kill it off but man that last book was a wall banger.  It shouldn't not be a surprise the legion was one of my favorite but that book read like one bad accident after another.  My main issue is how quickly it fall apart.  Reading previous book you saw how Carlyle walk with his warrior and help train them on how to respond to the situation. 

So to have the legion fall apart even after Lori kill seem kind of just blah.   It one thing for bad luck to happen.  one of there dropship got shot down so on.  But first let start with the aerospace force.  They know they have no way to defeat the incoming enemy.  So they gabble away there air asset on a lost cause which they knew they couldn't win.  in the past they would had taken there air asset and hid them around the planet till the time they could be use more  effectively.  In fact that should had been one of there pre arrange plans.  If outnumber where the outcome was certain each fight head to A, B and C and wait till further orders.  That didn't happen.  Instead they go off and sucide.

the lost of the jumpship I can forgive even if it a waste and contrary to everything we know about the inner sphere.  Destroying it instead of capturing it.

then comes the ground fighting.  Somehow they kept bongling and Lori has been part of the command for decades.  She also was familiar with the planet and had plenty of time to plan how to respond.  Yet it seem she had no clue how to respond and it cost them big time.  Plus she been part of an attacking force that secure that planet she already familiar with the weakness and more importantly is strength.  So why she kept dividing her command during the engagement instead of focusing on the mech factory which is where it all ended up anyway.  it be different of she was giving bad orders or the other team were just better at planning than her.  Which was not the case.  The legion folded quickly like a house of cards after years of having there back to the wall and coming back swinging.  A group that is famous for finding a way.  Couldn't in this book.  Was Grayson such a master strategies that all other officer were worthless??  It made no sense.  It would had made better since if they were just overwhelm.  Or if someone drop a nuke on them

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #26 on: 31 March 2019, 22:53:20 »
I thought of it as the attacker had a warship in orbit (preventing the defenders from having obvious defensive locations, or easily sending Dropships to reinforce/evacuate other locations), plus outnumbering the defenders.

The attackers would have assigned a pair of regiments to keep tabs on the ones you are not fighting yet, and hammer the remaining defending regiment without mercy (with Warship support if needed).  Take the survivors of that battle, and send them to go after the next regiment defending the planet, aso.  If a defending regiment surrenders, disarm/disperse them (preferably to another planet), and move on to the next.

But the stunt of sending Mechs into action on the train, and keeping the train on the track (at high speed) when they were near an enemy unit was a dumb move.

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #27 on: 01 April 2019, 01:22:41 »
Of course you could argue that the GDL simply tried to pull off their usual kind of daring gamble only to finally have it fly in their face for a change. Extraordinary things happened in the previous novels and in the final one they simply didn't get lucky (as opposed to extraordinarily unlucky).
I do agree that The Dying Time is a bit unfulfilling from a narrative standpoint, but it has to be said that the GDL clearly had it coming and I also like the underlying "Live by the sword, die by the sword" vibe.
« Last Edit: 01 April 2019, 01:24:43 by Frabby »
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Author of the BattleCorps stories Feather vs. Mountain, Rise and Shine, Proprietary, Trial of Faith & scenario Twins

Hellraiser

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  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #28 on: 01 April 2019, 02:20:09 »
My biggest issue with that book wasn't even the GDL Dying, it was how 2 Foxes can defeat 1 Avalon  !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Banzai

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Re: Gray Death Legion Wrap-Up?
« Reply #29 on: 22 May 2019, 17:40:20 »
To me there was a meanness to that last book.  I have no information on how the company was run or the choices in making The Dying Time, but it seemed a petty end to one of the first units we all knew.  It didn't seem an important cog to the larger story, and had very little impact outside of the Gray Death.  If it had been Keith writing it, I could have accepted it.  But bringing in another author to put "paid" to a story that really didn't require to be finished, and in the way it was done, felt to me like some sort of "take that" to Keith. 

Like I said, I have no evidence that that was the way it was meant, but it felt like it to me.

 

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