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Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 83830 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #750 on: 18 February 2018, 23:12:09 »
I think the Lyran and maybe IS General armor column for the Jihad needs work- for instance FM3085 RAT has the Heimdall, Fensalir (HAG), Gurti, Fensalir, Demo II (Tbolt), DI Morgan, DI Morgan (LRM), Demo II, Demo II (MML), Alacorn Mk VII, Sturmfuer (HG), Behemoth, Fortune, Alacorn Mk VI and others are missing from the MUL.  I was just skimming the assault column in that and then comparing.  I would assume tanks were also left out in the other weight groups.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #751 on: 18 February 2018, 23:50:56 »
I started checking on those, and several are already listed for Lyran Alliance.  The Demolisher IIs, DI Morgans, Alacorn Mk VII..
Perhaps you missed the Lyran Alliance being listed as a separate faction versus Lyran Commonwealth?
There's also a couple that looks like got missed when the Jihad era got extended later (intro year 3081-3085).
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Colt Ward

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #752 on: 18 February 2018, 23:56:12 »
You are right, I did not check off Alliance since they had returned to being Commonwealth during the Jihad.
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Bishop Steiner

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #753 on: 19 February 2018, 01:58:49 »
citation?


TR3025 also says the Zeus predates the Mackie.

It'd take anything and everything it says with a giant grain of salt.

Scotty

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #754 on: 19 February 2018, 02:16:16 »
citation?

TRO 3025 cites the Zeus's debut as either 2407 or 2410 depending on how you read the context of the date given (page 112).  The Mackie's introductory date is 2439.

What I'm getting at here is that TRO 3025 is not particularly well known for its accuracy.  I'd definitely try to find more supporting information and sources for anything it says.
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ColBosch

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #755 on: 19 February 2018, 14:10:48 »
Other way around, Scotty. In this case TR3025 is being used as the authoritative source by NCKestrel. Bishop Steiner is under the impression that if the mentioned Catapults are K2s, then the design shouldn't be listed as extinct. This is incorrect. If a faction does not have a unit listed on the MUL for a given time period, it does not mean that literally none of them exist, only that they are vanishingly rare. The Shadow Hawk LAM, for example, was basically Extinct from its creation, but one was in a Steiner museum.
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Bishop Steiner

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #756 on: 20 February 2018, 01:04:09 »
Other way around, Scotty. In this case TR3025 is being used as the authoritative source by NCKestrel. Bishop Steiner is under the impression that if the mentioned Catapults are K2s, then the design shouldn't be listed as extinct. This is incorrect. If a faction does not have a unit listed on the MUL for a given time period, it does not mean that literally none of them exist, only that they are vanishingly rare. The Shadow Hawk LAM, for example, was basically Extinct from its creation, but one was in a Steiner museum.

I am under no such impression.  I am looking for what the "official" take is on said matters specifically for dealing with the fact that there seems to be no consensus as to what extinct means.  If there is, and I have missed it, that citation itself would work wonders.   

That said, since the citation in TRO 3025 (part A) was used in part to determine it's "extinction" then the same citation (pt b) should be just as "authoritative.

But I also admit, as someone who has used K2s in his 3025 era canon unit, for decades, only to get told at a con... "bruh those aren't legal" one year.... (because apparently someone had decided that suddenly they didn't exist AT ALL until 3033... wtf?), and being the guy who instigated the last MUL related update to them...

Yeah I probably have an agenda. 

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #757 on: 20 February 2018, 01:35:30 »
Other way around, Scotty. In this case TR3025 is being used as the authoritative source by NCKestrel.

TR3025 Revised says the same.
TR3039 doesn't say anything specific about Catapults in Kurita until 3033, but states the Catapult was "completely ignored and it's numbers were dwindling" overall until Kurita started production in 3033. It also implies all of Kurita's Catapults came from taking Dieron.  IE. Kurita had one source from one time in the 1st SW. It definitely does not sound like it's attempting to retcon 3025's statements on Kurita's extremely limited numbers of Catapults in 3025.

(On the other hand, Battlepack: 4SW has three Kuritan forces each with a CPLT-C1 in 3028-3029.)

No CPLT-K2s post 3025 is perhaps a little strong.  Maybe one or two Kuritan's acquired Catapults and converted them to K2s on their own.  It's always possible. "Practically extinct" as you described should always be assumed.
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ColBosch

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #758 on: 20 February 2018, 01:37:15 »
But I also admit, as someone who has used K2s in his 3025 era canon unit, for decades, only to get told at a con... "bruh those aren't legal" one year.... (because apparently someone had decided that suddenly they didn't exist AT ALL until 3033... wtf?)

I understand that. I am deeply annoyed that someone would declare that you can't use a CPLT-K2 in a game simply because it doesn't appear as available to Kuritans in that time period. That is a misuse of the Master Unit List. It was never meant to be the be-all, end-all of what a player can and cannot use in games. Even if the K2 is rare enough to not warrant MUL availability in those 13 years, it is certainly a thematically-appropriate unit for 3025ish Kuritan forces. Telling you that you couldn't use it was petty, and I am very sorry that it happened.

While I am no longer a BattleTech or MUL contributor, I can say that the use of the Master Unit List to dictate unit availability by faction is strictly optional. There are few - if any - formal, printed rules for using the MUL, and players, GMs, and event organizers should be certain that everyone involved in a game or tournament is in agreement as to any restrictions they feel it imposes. I strongly urge that people running tournaments retain the utmost flexibility in interpreting the Master Unit List. The Alpha Strike Combat Manuals give rules specifically tailored to allow factions to use rare or captured units; I would highly recommend using a variant of those.
« Last Edit: 20 February 2018, 01:39:52 by ColBosch »
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #759 on: 20 February 2018, 08:07:59 »
And as for HBS using the K2, we know why they’ve added it. Sometimes there are forces beyond canon, and you do the best you can with what you have. Harassing them over canon when they’re just trying to give you a fun option when legally they can’t put in the preferred option doesn’t help.
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #760 on: 06 March 2018, 03:15:02 »
Notice the Katya is missing off the CapCon list for the Jihad- produced in '67 and IIRC exclusive to the Confederation.
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cavingjan

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #761 on: 06 March 2018, 07:21:43 »
All four Katya are already on the CapCon list for the Jihad.

Colt Ward

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #762 on: 06 March 2018, 09:01:55 »
Maybe for production, but I was looking for just availability and the only 30t airframe on that list is Sparrowhawk H5.  When I looked up on Sarna and MM, I only found 3 Katyas, -904, -905, -906.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #763 on: 06 March 2018, 09:30:09 »
Maybe for production, but I was looking for just availability and the only 30t airframe on that list is Sparrowhawk H5.  When I looked up on Sarna and MM, I only found 3 Katyas, -904, -905, -906.

We don't have production on the MUL, so I'm not sure what you are refering to.
Katya C-904 is Capellan Confederation for Civil War and Jihad, and CC, FW, Merc, Periphery and Republic for Early Republic
RL15, RL10 and Fuel variants are exactly the same.

When I go the faction tab, select Capellan Confederation, Civil War (or Jihad) and then Aerospace, all four Katyas show up.

Are you using the unit search and select Capellan Confederation as faction?  If so, make sure to uncheck the box that only shows units with BV.  The Katyas don't have BVs entered, so won't show up in the default unit search that has BV required checked.
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #764 on: 06 March 2018, 09:32:05 »
Then that sounds likely, what I was referring two was the 2 buttons at the bottom of the selection 'Production Era' and 'Availability Era'
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cavingjan

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #765 on: 06 March 2018, 19:46:51 »
production era refers only to the initial era that it was produced and not all eras that it was produced.

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #766 on: 12 March 2018, 12:48:51 »
A note about some changes to AS unit cards in the MUL.  Dak created some new templates, including some additional unit types. Skyhigh has finished implementing them on the site, so we now have separate templates for BattleMechs, Aerospace,  Vehicles, ProtoMechs and Infantry.

Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
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TigerShark

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #767 on: 12 March 2018, 23:42:26 »
I feel like the Ahab AHB-443's availability during the Star League should be flip-flopped with the AHB-X. The AHB-443, with its NARC technology, is NOT available to the SLDF. The AHB-X is a more primitive version, mounting no special tech, and is not available to the Great Houses?

It seems far more likely that the Star League would have allowed the AHB-X to be sold to the Member States and the AHB-443 reserved for its own military.
« Last Edit: 13 March 2018, 20:26:56 by TigerShark »
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #768 on: 13 March 2018, 17:40:27 »
The entry for the Assassin Skaret Assassins, Jarnfolk is listed as one squad, and one ton on the list, but the card has a CAR2 in the specials ... just a quick heads up.

Thanks in Advance
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #769 on: 14 March 2018, 00:10:30 »
The entry for the Assassin Skaret Assassins, Jarnfolk is listed as one squad, and one ton on the list, but the card has a CAR2 in the specials ... just a quick heads up.

Thanks in Advance
Nahuris

Weight should be 1.5 tons for one squad, they're Paratroopers.  AS card is correct.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #770 on: 15 March 2018, 20:25:57 »
Correction.. looks like all vehicles are missing skills
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/860/demolisher-heavy-tank-defensive

The Mobile Long Tom Artillery Cards are missing skills on their cards.
Mobile Long Tom Artillery Ammunition Carriage LT-MOB-25
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2203/mobile-long-tom-artillery-ammunition-carriage-lt-mob-25

Mobile Long Tom Artillery LT-MOB-25
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2202/mobile-long-tom-artillery-lt-mob-25

Mobile Long Tom Artillery Support Carriage LT-MOB-25
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2204/mobile-long-tom-artillery-support-carriage-lt-mob-25
« Last Edit: 15 March 2018, 20:28:31 by atlask »
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mutantsix

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #771 on: 16 March 2018, 01:40:48 »
When will the FLE-16 be added from TRO succession Wars?

mutantsix

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #772 on: 16 March 2018, 02:10:29 »
I just read TRO Succession Wars and it stated the only Firestarter model that ceased production was the -A variant. So the -K model should still have limited availability as the -H model was the dominant production model not sole.

Bump - any thoughts on this mods?

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #773 on: 16 March 2018, 10:25:26 »
When will the FLE-16 be added from TRO succession Wars?

When we do it.  We're overworked, unpaid volunteers (ok, probably redundant), we get to it when we get to it. 
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #774 on: 16 March 2018, 10:26:53 »
Weight should be 1.5 tons for one squad, they're Paratroopers.  AS card is correct.

I have now corrected the MUL's tonnage listing for them to 1.5.  It displays as 2 though because the site rounds up tonnage...
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
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3025-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
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http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #775 on: 16 March 2018, 10:28:26 »
I feel like the Ahab AHB-443's availability during the Star League should be flip-flopped with the AHB-X. The AHB-443, with its NARC technology, is NOT available to the SLDF. The AHB-X is a more primitive version, mounting no special tech, and is not available to the Great Houses?

It seems far more likely that the Star League would have allowed the AHB-X to be sold to the Member States and the AHB-443 reserved for its own military.

The AHB-X was a prototype, regardless of technology, it was never widespread. Thus it never got a non-X designation.  The spread it does have likely has more to do with us being unsure where the prototype served, if anything it should be more restricted.
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
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3025-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
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mutantsix

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #776 on: 16 March 2018, 18:31:49 »
When we do it.  We're overworked, unpaid volunteers (ok, probably redundant), we get to it when we get to it.

@nckestrel - understood mate and no offence intended. all the volunteers do a great job!

TigerShark

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #777 on: 17 March 2018, 14:04:29 »
The AHB-X was a prototype, regardless of technology, it was never widespread. Thus it never got a non-X designation.  The spread it does have likely has more to do with us being unsure where the prototype served, if anything it should be more restricted.
Would this then mean that NARC missile beacon ammo was sold to every House? As well as NARC-compatible munitions?
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #778 on: 17 March 2018, 20:55:24 »
The MUL lists the Tokugawa Heavy Tank (Standard) with a introduction date of 3053 and gives the downgraded -150 version with a date of 2792.

TRO: 3058 Upgrade pg. 102, says the first Tokugawa's were released during the First Succession War.  The downgraded -150 came *after* the release of the original design.  There was a period of time between its introduction and the later downgrade in which the standard version was available. 

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #779 on: 18 March 2018, 00:17:08 »
The MUL lists the Tokugawa Heavy Tank (Standard) with a introduction date of 3053 and gives the downgraded -150 version with a date of 2792.

TRO: 3058 Upgrade pg. 102, says the first Tokugawa's were released during the First Succession War.  The downgraded -150 came *after* the release of the original design.  There was a period of time between its introduction and the later downgrade in which the standard version was available.

 "in the wake of that (Luthien) action..produced an improved Tokugawa that entered service in 3053."
"in the decade and a half since the upgraded version entered service"
The -150 was the original 2792 and the 3046 returned model, the upgrade (standard) didn't exist until 3053.
The text about the Tokugawa being released during the First Succession War is not specific to the medium pulse laser/lbx model, it's referring to the initial service date for the overall Tokugawa chassis.
 
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
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3025-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
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