Author Topic: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???  (Read 2856 times)

Panthros

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Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« on: 22 August 2018, 22:49:11 »
I love Alpha Strike.  I love Clan Wolf.  I love that their command stars had a point of fighters.  My problem is Alpha Strike and Aerospace is like oil and water.  They put fighters on a separate map.  How is that even fun?  I want to see fighters on the map in strafing runs.  If the Mech has weapons in the arms, I want to see the mechs even fighting back.  I was hoping there was something in the Alpha Strike Companion but alas nothing.  I was hoping someone out there can help.  Maybe I missed something or someone has created something.  I know we all love stomping mechs, but I also love that there can be combined warfare in Battletech.  Air seems to have gotten thrown to the wayside.  I am sure since it's rules are so complicated.
« Last Edit: 22 August 2018, 23:14:08 by Panthros »

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #1 on: 22 August 2018, 23:55:52 »
Well ASFs move so fast that all they can do is go from one table edge to another.  Playing with arcs or bends rather than pure straight lines is probably more trouble than it's worth.

I kind of like the abstract aerospace combat mechanic on the RADAR map, but I suppose some extensive fan-rules could provide a Crimson Skies/Renegade Legion: Interceptor/Aerotech style dogfighting game for Alpha Strike scale.  However even then, they'd probably still need to be on their own map rather than wheeling and dogfighting on the same table over the mechs and tanks.

Scotty

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #2 on: 23 August 2018, 12:45:11 »
Somebody remind me later today and I can drop the house rules we've been testing in Kansas City for a one-map aero ruleset in the Fan Rules section.
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sadlerbw

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #3 on: 23 August 2018, 15:15:48 »
Aero units (Not VTOL's, but true boom-'n-zoom fighters and aerospace units) are a tough problem when it comes to integrating them into ground battles. That is true not just for AS, but for every BT system I've tried. I am, as I've mentioned before, not a fan of the current AS aero rules. The air-ground interaction is functional, but there are a lot of places it falls flat for me.

When I use aero, which I admit isn't super often, I usually don't try to make it a core part of the battle. I usually allow two or four fighters a fly-over on certain turns (2 and 4, 3 and 6, something like that) and don't use bombs. I divide whatever their PV is by two or three, depending on how much I think they will actually show up, and use that for rough balancing. I don't even try to run an air battle simultaneous with a ground battle.

I know that isn't terribly helpful, but the current aero system has been far enough away from fun for me that I haven't really wanted to spend time tweaking it to make it more to my liking. Scotty probably has a better answer!

Kibutsu

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #4 on: 19 October 2018, 08:33:49 »
This is somewhat related maybe, but our group has run a few scenarios where we combine Total Warfare and AS for aerospace actions, and it works surprisingly well. We use the movement and combat rules from Total Warfare but the weapon ranges and record sheets are Alpha Strike. Doing this gives you all the nuances of aero combat in a game that plays very quickly and is very easy to learn. The players all really enjoy it. We have so far only done space battles but we plan to do some atmospheric operations next time. The only drawback I see to combining this on a regular Alpha Strike ground map is that it might get too busy or confusing with fighters doing all the advanced maneuvering on the same board that the ground units are on. Consider using a separate air map where the fighters dogfight to establish air superiority, for example, from which they can move to the ground map to do strafing, strikes and bombing runs as normal.

Elmoth

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #5 on: 19 October 2018, 10:22:28 »
I think something fairly simple like the rules in Flames of War could work here. Would mean that fighters go like 30 times slower than in current BT, but it allows you to bomb the ground, dogfight with a simple die roll (interception or not) and have your guys be able to shot AA at fighters.

Jellico

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #6 on: 20 October 2018, 03:16:17 »
I once had a Samurai get shot down, land on a road, and keep on fighting in AS.

Andrew_Cluetain

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #7 on: 23 October 2018, 20:51:43 »
Somebody remind me later today and I can drop the house rules we've been testing in Kansas City for a one-map aero ruleset in the Fan Rules section.
It might not be later "Today", but if you posted this, please link!!
Remember us Ravens seek the ultmate highground, space.

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Scotty

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #8 on: 23 October 2018, 23:02:32 »
I had not yet, lemme get right on that.
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Scotty

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Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Panthros

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #10 on: 25 October 2018, 22:38:00 »
Thanks for sharing!  I look forward to trying it out this weekend.  Even at first glance, this is exactly what I was looking and hoping for. 

Descronan

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #11 on: 07 December 2018, 22:22:31 »
Keep in mind that the errata fixed a lot of issues with aerospace. If your fighter has more than 5 movement, then it gets to move 2 spaces on the air map. That means it gets to stay on the battlefield every turn once it hits the center.

My biggest complaint about aerospace is that a hit of even 1 point can cause a fatal crash and far too often IMO. This could be solved simply enough by increasing the ground to air TMM. It needs to be higher cause there is no cover in the sky. A +2 modifier at short range just isn't enough IMO.

Scotty

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #12 on: 07 December 2018, 23:13:07 »
The cut-off for moving two spaces at all times is 10 thrust.  The cut-off for moving two spaces in the Inner Ring and closer is 7 thrust.  That doesn't particularly help heavy fighters, which are what are going to be the expensive ones in the first place, especially since the issue with anything too slow to contribute every turn is that you're paying full price for half a ship's worth of effectiveness.

There are other ways to make fighters more survivable than just tacking on an arbitrary additional difficulty to hit, particularly since that's not really going to help against units that have reasonably good counters like FLK or AC without making fighters damn near impossible to hit, which is just as undesirable.
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DarkJaguar

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #13 on: 07 December 2018, 23:20:22 »
Aerospace doesn't need any TMM buffs, they just need a separate phase.  We've subdivided movement and combat phases into ground and Aerospace and basically it fixed everything.

nckestrel

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #14 on: 08 December 2018, 00:31:04 »
Aerospace doesn't need any TMM buffs, they just need a separate phase.  We've subdivided movement and combat phases into ground and Aerospace and basically it fixed everything.

Balance wise perhaps. Not everybody likes the feel of aerospace always showing up at the rear.  Jet fighters aren’t usually known for their ability to accurately cross just behind their targets.
Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #15 on: 08 December 2018, 00:38:20 »
Attacks from on high resolving against weaker/back armor sounds about right, actually.  Armor is placed to maximize protection from fellow ground units...

Scotty

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #16 on: 08 December 2018, 00:50:01 »
Attacks from on high resolving against weaker/back armor sounds about right, actually.  Armor is placed to maximize protection from fellow ground units...

"Realism" (and I use that term generously) takes a back seat to balance and functionality, especially if it's a question of all Aero units getting free bonus damage for dubious reasons.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #17 on: 08 December 2018, 00:55:34 »
Well it's not like ASFs should be getting tons of back-shots anyway.. even if you have to move a ground unit before the flight path is declared,you should still know a 60 degree window from which the ASF's path will be originating.  Alpha Strike's ground unit firing arcs are exceedingly generous... you can always deny your back arc, you just sometimes have to pick and choose to whom.

Xochi

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #18 on: 08 December 2018, 11:30:31 »
Attacks from on high resolving against weaker/back armor sounds about right, actually.  Armor is placed to maximize protection from fellow ground units...

I am pretty sure Aero cannot get rear attacks. Their damage is the same no matter what.

AS. pg 57:
Step 6: Determine and Apply Damage
When determining and applying
damage from an air-to-ground attack,
damage is always delivered to the
target’s front arc, regardless of the unit’s
actual facing relative to the aerospace
unit’s line of attack.

You know when Aerospace are coming down and can prepare for it. We however took it further and made rules for firing backwards even without rear special, following the canonical actions of things like the Timberwolf being able to swing its arms backwards. This makes it so Aero still have to be very careful about where they set their flight lines. It also makes Strafes more risky. (I am looking at you DJ with your Skill 2 ENE Sabutai 9 damage strafes of doom :P)
« Last Edit: 08 December 2018, 11:35:18 by Xochi »

DarkJaguar

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #19 on: 08 December 2018, 11:39:20 »
Balance wise perhaps. Not everybody likes the feel of aerospace always showing up at the rear.  Jet fighters aren’t usually known for their ability to accurately cross just behind their targets.

We play at 480PV per player, if out of your entire force you can't be bothered to have something covering your rear 2 out of the 6 turns that a ground attack aerospace will show up during a game, you deserve to get wrecked. XD

Elmoth

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #20 on: 08 December 2018, 12:20:10 »
We are fairly new to AS. But we have tested ASF in the last 3 games, and in our opinion it seems to work ok for something that moves FAST. Of you want flyers that manoeuvre over the table use vtols or wige

nckestrel

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #21 on: 08 December 2018, 12:45:34 »
We play at 480PV per player, if out of your entire force you can't be bothered to have something covering your rear 2 out of the 6 turns that a ground attack aerospace will show up during a game, you deserve to get wrecked. XD

It has nothing to do with balance or deserving.  A game is supposed to represent something. I don’t think I’m the only player that thinks aerospace always coming in a line parallel to the enemy but just behind it is not how aerospace is supposed to “look”.  Mechs don’t teleport, infantry don’t jump over 10 levele high buildings. It doesnt matter if it’s balanced or not, it doesn’t model the behavior I expect from them.
Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

DarkJaguar

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Re: Simple Aerospace for Alpha Strike???
« Reply #22 on: 09 December 2018, 04:39:37 »
It has nothing to do with balance or deserving.  A game is supposed to represent something. I don’t think I’m the only player that thinks aerospace always coming in a line parallel to the enemy but just behind it is not how aerospace is supposed to “look”.  Mechs don’t teleport, infantry don’t jump over 10 levele high buildings. It doesnt matter if it’s balanced or not, it doesn’t model the behavior I expect from them.

Our group likes it, so YMMV I guess.