What if: Superheavies

[JadeHellbringer]

Wait.

Someone with the books handy, is a cruise missile even capable of being Mech-mounted? I'm suspecting not, but... a walking Scud launcher would be pretty awesome. Useless, but cool LOOKING at least.

[MadCapellan]

Negative, my man. Even the Long Tom was out until the recent errata ruling.

[JadeHellbringer]

Negative, my man. Even the Long Tom was out until the recent errata ruling.

That's too bad. My mind had rigged up a quad set up to be like a gigantic mutant Hollander- four beefy cylinder-style legs, offset cockpit, and a giant missile rail system taking up most of the body, with an MG in each knee Viking-style.

Poor little guy, illegal before he ever walked onto a test field.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Even the smallest cruise missile is so heavy that if it somehow were legal to mount the system on a mech, you'd still only get one, possibly two shots.

[JadeHellbringer]

Even the smallest cruise missile is so heavy that if it somehow were legal to mount the system on a mech, you'd still only get one, possibly two shots.

Exactly. Which makes it both awesome-looking and utterly useless, in the tradition of Battletech artillery units in-general.  :thumbsup:

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And it's especially useless given how hard it is to reload cruise missiles due to their size and mass.

For hilarious artillery fire, though, imagine if a superheavy mech bay got developed and six were installed on a Trutzburg in place of its normal 12 mech bays.

And then you take your Trutzburg loaded with six Long Tom Omegas. >:D

[Sartris]

1) purchase kalkis
2) drive off dropship
3) fire one (1) cruise missile/50
4) drive back onto dropship

[JadeHellbringer]

1) purchase kalkis
2) drive off dropship
3) fire one (1) cruise missile/50
4) drive back onto dropship

Depending on the skill of your Kalki crew, you may not have to land to perform these tasks.

[Sartris]

Depending on the skill of your Kalki crew, you may not have to land to perform these tasks.

I'm Chief Master Sergeant Johnny Knoxville and this is Jackass

[Colt Ward]

JHB, you just want a mech version of this-



I was actually wondering if the Kalki Cruise Missile Launcher would come up.  The Long Tom uses the same crit requirements as it does for support veh rules which is where I think it comes from.  I think superheavies might be used as strategic bombardment and seige-ending weapons, mounting cruise missile launchers & Long Toms for one example or getting that 3/5 with specialty armor and mounting big long range hitters- Gauss Rifles, cERPPCs . . .

 . . . heck, think of making a Super-Kraken!  Can they mount turrets?

[JadeHellbringer]

Superheavies, you mean? I can't see why they WOULDN'T be able to use turrets, off the top of my head. I admit, I kinda like the idea of a semi-mobile AA pillbox throwing a giant wad of LB-2X fire into the air, connected to a C3 network. Move it and its buddies to a location expected to be under siege, park it, and start slinging shells when the enemy planes show up.

The downside, as always with a superheavy, is that a big tank probably does the job just as well for less investment.

[Sartris]

a star of nuberus

[JadeHellbringer]

a star of nuberus

Close up shop, we have our winner.

[Wrangler]

1) purchase kalkis
2) drive off dropship
3) fire one (1) cruise missile/50
4) drive back onto dropship

Depending on the skill of your Kalki crew, you may not have to land to perform these tasks.

Why not use a Polaris Class DropShip from the Ghost Bears and go to town firing 4 Class 50 Cruise missiles down range, with 40 reloads. 

I still think Superheavies can be done properly, they just need something make them more usable. I'm still hoping we will see more, like humanoid Superheavy going Magaziner Z on someone, or a Quad Superheavy for the Hell's Horses with a unicorn horn on it.

[RoundTop]

Just go full Jade Falcon on them. Crash a warship into the city.

[Elmoth]

Hmm... that last option might be sightly more expensive than the superheavies, but I need to review my math.
However, it has the elan of a hammerfall, which I like

[sadlerbw]

Getting back to the OP, I don’t see super-heavies changing warfare that much. They require too many assets to build, too much in the way of logistics to transport and keep in fighting shape, and they don’t do much beyond taking a long time to die. I would expect them to show up as permanent defensive units of planets with a robust military infrastructure. So, capitals and centers of industry. That way you can ignore transport, and mobility isn’t much of a need, but you can still be less predictable than a fixed gun emplacement as a defense. You can argue super-heavy vehicles would be better, but the mechs will keep their mobility longer, which may matter in a game-rules sense (forced withdraw). Also, the dual pilot thing is a bit harder to kill with random crits. I don’t believe super-heavy vehicles have any such protection against ‘crew killed’ crits.

Beyond that, if I really want a big, strategically mobile fire base of a unit, I’ll just use a dropship! Several of those come with REAL artillery in the Dark Age, and they are more mobile on a strategic level than Super-heavies would be. I’d rather support an assault with a Trutzburg or a Polaris than a lance of Omegas.

[Sartris]

Why not use a Polaris Class DropShip from the Ghost Bears and go to town firing 4 Class 50 Cruise missiles down range, with 40 reloads. 

because if i have the option to go for what is a good idea or go for the joke, i will always take the joke

Getting back to the OP, I don’t see super-heavies changing warfare that much. They require too many assets to build, too much in the way of logistics to transport and keep in fighting shape, and they don’t do much beyond taking a long time to die. I would expect them to show up as permanent defensive units of planets with a robust military infrastructure. So, capitals and centers of industry. That way you can ignore transport, and mobility isn’t much of a need, but you can still be less predictable than a fixed gun emplacement as a defense. You can argue super-heavy vehicles would be better, but the mechs will keep their mobility longer, which may matter in a game-rules sense (forced withdraw). Also, the dual pilot thing is a bit harder to kill with random crits. I don’t believe super-heavy vehicles have any such protection against ‘crew killed’ crits.

Beyond that, if I really want a big, strategically mobile fire base of a unit, I’ll just use a dropship! Several of those come with REAL artillery in the Dark Age, and they are more mobile on a strategic level than Super-heavies would be. I’d rather support an assault with a Trutzburg or a Polaris than a lance of Omegas.

the superheavy's key asset is that they possess a certain cinematic quality that make a game much more entertaining than "you win from space." they also match the Master's fabulous panache.

they're not really practical at all, which is part of their charm

[Col Toda]

The Mad Capper is correct about artillary.  Say instead of Dozens you have 12 and 12 Savannah Masters with the med laser replaced with TAG . 3 Savannah Masters get behind the Super Heavy at least one paints the mech . Of the 12 long tom shot 4 are placed on the correct map board 3 Copper heads hit doing 45 points the super heavy destroys 2 or 3 Savannah Masters.  Rinse and Repeat 4 times that is 180 pts double that at 3 turn flight time 600 points over 4 turns at 2 turn or less flight time . Mind you all the Savannah Masters die . My example of 3 Shiltron Primes and 9 mechs in a network and some Pegasus Scouts with inferno ammo. Against a Lance of Super Heavies The Shiltron"s Arrow IV rate to do an average of 105 pts per round the Pegasus Scouts add 12 points of heat the first round ( Not likely to live to a second one ) which will carry over for much of the fight . The networked mechs exploit the holes provided . It is a fair fight the Shiltons have 20 rounds of ammo in which the Super Heavies if they run cover 50 hexes ( More likely 30 ) . For the the C bill price tag a super heavy someone could buy 20 Savannah Masters Which would probably do North of 200 pts of Damage before they were all destroyed . Super Heavies are expensive defensive unit who"s niche is to defend a location with as few people as possible for operational security of a place.   Outside of this niche it is a waste of resources . For the same price in hardware anyone could do better . The Super Heavy has 3 crew and 1 tech its opposition force is at least 5 or 6 times that . You gain with them 1/5 or more the risk of internal security breaches. This is why you find them on Hesprus ect .

[pheonixstorm]

Super King Crab!

Give it the same look but put 2 Long Tom Cannons on it. They would move at the same speed and be nearly the same size. Imagine the surprise on the enemy thinking they could dance around outside the AC/20 range only to get blasted to hell by long tom shells. I don't remember if it was 125 tons or 150 but I have one stated up in MML awhile back. It was a real beast with the LTC. Just think if you put a lot of RAC/2 or RAC/5 on it with some deep ammo bins.

[Jellico]

Why not use a Polaris Class DropShip from the Ghost Bears and go to town firing 4 Class 50 Cruise missiles down range, with 40 reloads. 

I believe the class you are looking for is the Duat. 3 x Cruise Missile 50s. Extensive drone control facilities. 6 Mech bays. 6 BA bays. And 6 suspiciously sized 220 ton bays connected to an infantry barracks.

But yeah. All I really want is a Polaris with a Supernova of Huey (HAG)s and Kobold IICs.

[Wrangler]

I believe the class you are looking for is the Duat. 3 x Cruise Missile 50s. Extensive drone control facilities. 6 Mech bays. 6 BA bays. And 6 suspiciously sized 220 ton bays connected to an infantry barracks.

But yeah. All I really want is a Polaris with a Supernova of Huey (HAG)s and Kobold IICs.

I totally forgot that the Duat-Class had Cruise missile launchers fitted on them as well.  Also they can potentially be carrying those "sprinting" Cruise missiles, called Celerity Drones.  ;D

I guess superheavies aren't going quite find their niche until more people start using them more.  I liked the idea of semi-mobile artillery machine, cruise missiles be bit too much weight for them.  Mobile HQ would work to certain extent, where your HQ could fight BACK.  "Metroplex HQ! Transform and beat those Cappellan raiders off!"
 

[grimlock1]

Getting back to the OP, I don’t see super-heavies changing warfare that much. They require too many assets to build, too much in the way of logistics to transport and keep in fighting shape, and they don’t do much beyond taking a long time to die. I would expect them to show up as permanent defensive units of planets with a robust military infrastructure. So, capitals and centers of industry. That way you can ignore transport, and mobility isn’t much of a need, but you can still be less predictable than a fixed gun emplacement as a defense.

While using them to defend fixed points eases the logistics by orders of magnitude, super-heavies are still limited by their strategic speed. A super heavy can have a major impact, but unless it's packing arty, it's not a big threat to anything more than a mapsheet or so away. Yes, the same is true of any other unit using mech-scale weapons, but it's a lot easier to reposition smaller units, both tactically and strategically.

Look at Devils Tower as shown on JHS:Terra, pg 202(205 of the PDF) [rant] If Catalyst wants to do PDFs, then they should make the page numbers in the index and TOC match the page of the PDF in all readers, not just the blessed Adobe[/rant]. The Devils Tower Castle Brian is about 2 km^2 in a roughly 2km x 1km layout. Even if there is a straight and flat tunnel, it would take a super heavy 4 minutes, or 24 turns to get from one end of the complex to the other.  There are heavy mechs that can do that in a third the time.   

Depending on the granularity of your table top, that makes for some interesting counters to super-heavies that don't boil down to "hit it harder."  It becomes a game of faking out the defender with a feint toward one target, then repositioning, either via relatively fast ground units, or a short hop via jump ship to the other side of the city/base/complex.

I imagine this is something that would be handled via dice/negotiation before the actual battle starts, otherwise it would be rather tedious.

True, the same limitation applies to super heavy vehicles, and even some regular vehicles, Burke and Mars, I'm looking at you. And to be fair, an Atlas or Dire Wolf might be almost twice as fast, but to be honest, 3/5 is still painfully slow.

[Jellico]

I totally forgot that the Duat-Class had Cruise missile launchers fitted on them as well.  Also they can potentially be carrying those "sprinting" Cruise missiles, called Celerity Drones.  ;D

And relevantly for this discussion 6 x not-Superheavy Mech Bays.

[lucho]

[rant]
Yes. Superheavies aren't going to break any games, they are quite balanced like other new stuff such as WiGEs (perhps too balanced...). The point is, they add a bit more flavor to the game.

How to beat them? Artillery!! Artillery!! Ortillery!! Gee, the solution to everything. The main advantage to superheavies- apart from the cool factor-  is the massive amount of crit space. Are they efficient? of course not! People here complain about optimized and min-maxing designs but complain that superheavies can't be used because they're not efficient enough.

Sheesh, just throw Savannahmasters and Arrow IV in every fight. It's more efficient
[end rant]

And relevantly for this discussion 6 x not-Superheavy Mech Bays.

Definitely a very interesting detail of the Duat

[Col Toda]

My biggest problem with a Super Heavy Mech is Salvage . A Tunbo has a 112 ton lift capacity so a Super has to be a gutted wreak to pick it up and run with it . 125 ton should have 25 tons of armor and any limb blow away would help too so it is almost dead certain to be lightened enough to pick up after combat . Any heavier Super Heavy is very time consuming and almost guarantees a counterattack to take over the salvage field . By 3085 just about everyone considers a salvage operation as flight time to and from plus 20 seconds with a Tunbo per mech or combat vehicle with my Rose drop ship with the small craft bays made super heavy support vehicle bay it has 4 . Salvage recovery is done 2 orders of magnitude faster than the old days . a broken 200 ton super heavy would be 2 or 3 trips plus the techs or battle armor"s time denuding the torso of armor and other componants to lighten enough to make off with it . That takes time . It takes 4 Tunbos 3 round trips to pick up a company of Salvage with almost no time on sight . A 200 ton  super heavy salvage job eats at least 2 or 3 trips by itself and exposes your people on the ground . I can easly see the wreckage just shot at by energy weapons by salvage operation"s security because they think they do not have the time to make off with it .

[grimlock1]

I totally forgot that the Duat-Class had Cruise missile launchers fitted on them as well.  Also they can potentially be carrying those "sprinting" Cruise missiles, called Celerity Drones.  ;D

Once a scenario starts, are the drones and the Drone Carrier Control System locked in to each other?  Could a Duat land, unload 18 Celerities from Cargo Bay 4, park 12 of them next to the ramp, and send the other 6 into battle, then when one Celerity gets squished, just activate another and send it on its way?

Yeah, that does make life a bit harder for the whole "Get in, hit hard, get out," part of the false flag plan, but locking those Ares and Poseidons down for liftoff is no quick affair either.

My biggest problem with a Super Heavy Mech is Salvage . A Tunbo has a 112 ton lift capacity so a Super has to be a gutted wreak to pick it up and run with it . 125 ton should have 25 tons of armor and any limb blow away would help too so it is almost dead certain to be lightened enough to pick up after combat . Any heavier Super Heavy is very time consuming and almost guarantees a counterattack to take over the salvage field . By 3085 just about everyone considers a salvage operation as flight time to and from plus 20 seconds with a Tunbo per mech or combat vehicle with my Rose drop ship with the small craft bays made super heavy support vehicle bay it has 4 . Salvage recovery is done 2 orders of magnitude faster than the old days . a broken 200 ton super heavy would be 2 or 3 trips plus the techs or battle armor"s time denuding the torso of armor and other componants to lighten enough to make off with it . That takes time . It takes 4 Tunbos 3 round trips to pick up a company of Salvage with almost no time on sight . A 200 ton  super heavy salvage job eats at least 2 or 3 trips by itself and exposes your people on the ground . I can easly see the wreckage just shot at by energy weapons by salvage operation"s security because they think they do not have the time to make off with it .

Are you talking salvage during combat ops?  Post-battle salvage time is a consideration, no doubts there, but the values change in context.  Minutes count in the post battle paradigm, but seconds count in combat.  A NASCAR pit stop can be anywhere between 2 and 18 seconds. A 2-4 hour engine swap after the race not unrealistic.

[JadeHellbringer]

[rant]
Yes. Superheavies aren't going to break any games, they are quite balanced like other new stuff such as WiGEs (perhps too balanced...). The point is, they add a bit more flavor to the game.

How to beat them? Artillery!! Artillery!! Ortillery!! Gee, the solution to everything. The main advantage to superheavies- apart from the cool factor-  is the massive amount of crit space. Are they efficient? of course not! People here complain about optimized and min-maxing designs but complain that superheavies can't be used because they're not efficient enough.

Sheesh, just throw Savannahmasters and Arrow IV in every fight. It's more efficient
[end rant]

When it comes to extremely slow, clumsy units like superheavy Mechs, large tanks, masses of infantry, your mom (ZING!), artillery IS one of the better tools for the job. (Yeah, orbital stuff is kind of out of the scope of the average battlefield, I'll back that). Artillery is inaccurate, doesn't do nearly as much damage as a real-world gun would do, etc., all the usual complaints, but a mass artillery barrage- and we're talking like four guns or more, which is pretty reasonable for many worlds when you consider field guns and the like- is likely to soften up something like an Omega, Destrier, etc. before it has the chance to cause a great deal of trouble. So yeah, that makes it a priority target for the arty. I wouldn't rely SOLELY on artillery barrages to do the job- superheavies are remarkably tough- but as my opening 'I hate you' opus to it a few Sniper or Arrow rounds are a pretty great start before switching up to standard Mech-scale ordnance.

That's not to say you don't have a leg to stand on with your rant- yeah, the 'crash a warship into it' jokes are pretty stale- but in this case 'artillery it until it stops being funny' really is a viable, handy solution to an otherwise tricky problem.

[Col Toda]

Has anyone do a compared cost analyses of a mobile hardend building with 150 pts of armor and CF with about 120 tons of weapons and equipment compare with a super heavy ?

[JadeHellbringer]

Has anyone do a compared cost analyses of a mobile hardend building with 150 pts of armor and CF with about 120 tons of weapons and equipment compare with a super heavy ?

Congratulations! You just volunteered!  >:D