Author Topic: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion  (Read 35530 times)

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #240 on: 19 February 2019, 11:06:29 »
I saw someone suggested a 3D6 roll for to-hit. That is interesting. But does that make things more complicated or do you need to muck with modifiers to make it work?

It could potentially increase the benefit to medium and long-range combat. However, does that open another can of worms?

You might (or might not) need to boost the base to-hit numbers by +1 to balance it out, otherwise Lights kind-of die when anything heavy even glances in their direction.  We've already got that problem now with lower gunnery skill numbers and pulse weapons; the larger dice range would make a 1 increase in gunnery skill less catastrophic against light opponents.  The odds of hitting on 4 or 5 when stuff sits still is probably more realistic, since that's target practice odds, but movement modifiers would almost certainly need to be bumped up slightly to preserve speed as a valid defense.  To cover that, I'd love to see a streamlined set of movement modifiers, where you get a +1 for every 2 hexes covered, rather than having to memorize or look up the 3/5/7/10 hexes to get a +1/2/3/4 modifier.  New players ALWAYS struggle with that.  With 3D6 and a base of 5 to-hit, getting a +6 modifier would give you 11+ at short range, and 15+ at long: a difficult shot, and firer movement and terrain could STILL take it up to 18 to hit (a true "Hail Mary" shot), but you don't get "impossible" shots in the open as in the current system (4 base, +4 range, +4 target movement, plus shooter movement = 13+).

As mentioned in several previous posts, cleaning up the odd range-bands for some weapons would go a long way: 1x/2x/3x times the base range, not something like 3/7/10 that has to be memorized for each individual weapon.  I'd also like to see a few items to fill that odd intermediate 4/8/12 gap between the ML/SRM and LL/AC10 ranges.  It might even pay to make "extreme range" a standard rule with the larger 3D6 dice range, so shots out to 30 hexes can be taken with many of the larger weapons, closer to what can be done with most modern day heavy equipment, although at relatively poor odds.  Infantry small arms should be an exception, where the odds of hitting at significantly longer ranges than at present should be POSSIBLE, but the damage should fall off dramatically.  If you've got 28 guys shooting, the odds of ONE hitting should be relatively decent, but getting most of the platoon's shots to hit at more than point-blank range would be asking for a miracle.  Perhaps it could use a cluster hit table with a -2 to the roll per range band (or even -1 per hex) with a minimum of 1 damage, so the odds of getting a point of damage out to 6 or maybe even 8-9 hexes would be fairly high, but getting much more than that would be increasingly unlikely at longer ranges.  Modern infantry ideal engagement ranges are generally in the 100-200 meter vicinity, but occasional kills are made at up to a kilometer or more.  Current BT rifle infantry combat begins at less than 100 meters, and then inflicts full rated damage for the entire platoon if you hit.  The rules for it seriously need to be reworked.

Maybe there's a better and faster way to mark off damage, but the concept of locational damage has been a winner, so reducing that to anything below 6 hit locations (1D6 instead of 2D6) would be a real mistake, and I'm fine with the current roll, just not with having to memorize both the front and side hit location charts.  Use one chart, but just make any shots to the OPPOSITE torso side hit the facing torso side instead.  You can still hit the more distant arm or leg past the closer one as it swings back and forth, so that's not an issue in my opinion.

So far, there have been no other good systems that deliver the granularity and detail that BattleTech manages to convey.  Clearly, it needs some updating and streamlining to reduce the number of charts and things to remember, but NOT at the expense of the detail, cinematic factor, and RPG flavor that it currently has.  Don't break what's positive about the game to chase some nebulous "ideal" solution that ends up leaving the current player base behind.

ActionButler

  • Global Moderator
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5844
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #241 on: 19 February 2019, 11:13:31 »
ActionButler, I don’t think those would hurt. I also don’t think they would change BattleTechs position in the market to any noticeable degree. Nobody should be thinking BattleRech will lead the market because by tweaking the rules to make them slightly less complicated/tedious. They can be done for their own sake, making the game better for those that do play.

Oh of course not.  Battletech is meant to be slow, and I respect that.  It fills a very specific niche in the tabletop wargame constellation and it shouldn't abandon that in favor of "mass spectacle" gaming (to paraphrase MadCap).  It will never be for everyone, but I refuse to accept that that means we can't at least think about making small QOL updates to make it a little more attractive and a little easy to pick up for new blood. 

If the "fix" doesn't preserve the sense of being the vicarious master of a gargantuan mechanical avatar of unstoppable death, I simply can't support it!

And I respect that.  I truly, genuinely do.  I don't want Battletech to be 40K 2.0.  40K is 40K 2.0 and it does a fine job of that.  I don't want Battletech to be Alpha Strike, either.  I want Battletech to stay Battletech, which is why, in my last post, my example of a QOL change is simply tweaking the way cluster weapons function to eliminate some dice rolls rather than throwing them out altogether and making every unit a powder keg that will gloriously explode as soon as it draws any amount of small arms fire. 
Experimental Technical Readout: The School
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56420.0

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13701
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #242 on: 19 February 2019, 11:27:25 »
Were the units homogeneous in how they are structured,  this would work. They aren't  Much as you may deride them,  those other components (like heat sinks) are critical.

No, they really aren't.  At least, not to the extent that striking one heatsink on an arm is going to meaningfully impact the game.  Crit charts on torsos could absolutely include heatsink damage, and losing an arm still destroys the heatsink in it.  The dubiously meaningful crit result that has been lost is "a single hear sink was destroyed" (and I guess technically the possibility for multiple crits per hit, but those happen rarely anyway and can be simulated easily enough; the table in my post was the product of maybe five minutes' consideration).

And you say things like "determine which weapon randomly.  How would you determine that randomly?  Oh yeah, with a die roll.   SMH.

Shit, you got me.  Sometimes it actually takes three rolls.  My whole point has been ruined. ::)

You want to speed it up (and I do not understand the obsession with speed... )?  Don't reroll the "top or bottom" die on a location with two charts.

This method makes the "bottom 1" slot on a mech with seven slots filled a 50% chance to be struck.  Unacceptable.

It's not literally about speed, and It's damn sure not about speed at the expense of the game.  It's about 1) reducing the lag time between a player making a decision and seeing the results of that decision because BattleTech is damn near an industry leader in that category and 2) reducing the amount of non-decision information players have to process that shouldn't be their problem.

In a perfect world I don't need to have tables memorized to speed up gameplay.  The game's mechanics should be handling that without any undue involvement from the players.

Is my point seriously so hard to grasp or so poorly explained that I have to reiterate it twice or three times per page?  ???
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10195
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #243 on: 19 February 2019, 12:57:41 »
But that App IS out there...I've been using it for years.

On iOS? I'm under the impression that any/most of these apps are Android ecosystem only.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

NeonKnight

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6353
  • Cause Them My Initials!
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #244 on: 19 February 2019, 13:13:59 »
On iOS? I'm under the impression that any/most of these apps are Android ecosystem only.

Nope, android...I don;t do Apple ;)
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10195
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #245 on: 19 February 2019, 13:22:45 »
Nope, android...I don;t do Apple ;)

That would be why a bunch of people may be going "wait, whut?". I've heard of this second-hand, but never seen a tool make it onto the Apple ecosystem.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

Papabees

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 952
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #246 on: 19 February 2019, 22:35:19 »
I totally get you.
No, they really aren't.  At least, not to the extent that striking one heatsink on an arm is going to meaningfully impact the game.  Crit charts on torsos could absolutely include heatsink damage, and losing an arm still destroys the heatsink in it.  The dubiously meaningful crit result that has been lost is "a single hear sink was destroyed" (and I guess technically the possibility for multiple crits per hit, but those happen rarely anyway and can be simulated easily enough; the table in my post was the product of maybe five minutes' consideration).

Shit, you got me.  Sometimes it actually takes three rolls.  My whole point has been ruined. ::)

This method makes the "bottom 1" slot on a mech with seven slots filled a 50% chance to be struck.  Unacceptable.

It's not literally about speed, and It's damn sure not about speed at the expense of the game.  It's about 1) reducing the lag time between a player making a decision and seeing the results of that decision because BattleTech is damn near an industry leader in that category and 2) reducing the amount of non-decision information players have to process that shouldn't be their problem.

In a perfect world I don't need to have tables memorized to speed up gameplay.  The game's mechanics should be handling that without any undue involvement from the players.

Is my point seriously so hard to grasp or so poorly explained that I have to reiterate it twice or three times per page?  ???

mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4498
    • Tower of Jade
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #247 on: 20 February 2019, 07:36:32 »
The current system is roll a D6 to get the "half" of the Mech that's hit, and another D6 for what actually gets hit. The only real reason I see that being a thing is because you have to be able to hit slot 1 somehow. I don't see why using a single die is any worse than the current system, you've got fairer odds with it.

I think the only reason the rule is the way it is, is because it's easier to use a D6, since they're the most common die out there.

And with that in mind, how about changing the rule so that if the attack roll that resulted in a structure hit was an odd number you'd use the top 6 crit slots and if it was even, you use the bottom 6 crits. That would get rid of one dice roll anyway.

Edit: OK I just saw this point.
This method makes the "bottom 1" slot on a mech with seven slots filled a 50% chance to be struck.  Unacceptable.
So never mind.

It's not literally about speed, and It's damn sure not about speed at the expense of the game.  It's about 1) reducing the lag time between a player making a decision and seeing the results of that decision because BattleTech is damn near an industry leader in that category and 2) reducing the amount of non-decision information players have to process that shouldn't be their problem.

Is my point seriously so hard to grasp or so poorly explained that I have to reiterate it twice or three times per page?  ???

To be fair, once you get into a multipage thread it can be difficult to keep track of the original idea, especially if you're clarifying it in later posts.

But to recap for my own understanding it sounds like you're saying:

1. There's a lot of information and work that a player has to handle now that you think is inappropriate to push onto the player*, and
2. You think the rules can be updated to remove that extra work.

Then you provided some examples of how you think #2 could be fixed, specifically with LB-X cluster hits. Later you presented an idea about the critical hit table, which may have some shortcomings in the eyes of other players.

Is that roughly correct?

*Note that these are my words; I don't think Scotty ever used the word "push" when describing the rules.
« Last Edit: 20 February 2019, 07:45:37 by mbear »
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

BloodRose

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 151
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #248 on: 20 February 2019, 07:45:40 »
One thing I tried to speed up play with a couple of opponents was halving the range modifiers, so Medium range became +1 and long +2. It really made the game that bit faster, but still allowed the original flavour to be kept without detracting anything at all.
>MOC - 3rd Canopian Fusiliers         >Capellan Confederation - Holdfast Guard
>Lyrians - 5th Donegal Guard          >Free Worlds League - 1st Oriente Hussars
>Federated Suns - 2nd NAIS           >Word of Blake/Comstar - undecided unit
>Draconis Combine - 1st Genyosha  >Clan Jade Falcon - Delta Galaxy
>Escorpion Imperio - Seeker Cluster >Pirates - Harlocks Marauders
>Mercs - Roses Heavy Lancers          >Mercs - Reinhold's Raiders
>Mercs/specops - Mausers Shreckenkorps >Mercs - Idol Squadron

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37369
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #249 on: 20 February 2019, 07:49:27 »
That's actually just the Sniper SPA...

Charlie Tango

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6499
  • I'm feeling a little sketchy...
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #250 on: 20 February 2019, 08:06:56 »
No, they really aren't.  At least, not to the extent that striking one heatsink on an arm is going to meaningfully impact the game.  Crit charts on torsos could absolutely include heatsink damage, and losing an arm still destroys the heatsink in it.  The dubiously meaningful crit result that has been lost is "a single hear sink was destroyed" (and I guess technically the possibility for multiple crits per hit, but those happen rarely anyway and can be simulated easily enough; the table in my post was the product of maybe five minutes' consideration).

Shit, you got me.  Sometimes it actually takes three rolls.  My whole point has been ruined. ::)

This method makes the "bottom 1" slot on a mech with seven slots filled a 50% chance to be struck.  Unacceptable.

It's not literally about speed, and It's damn sure not about speed at the expense of the game.  It's about 1) reducing the lag time between a player making a decision and seeing the results of that decision because BattleTech is damn near an industry leader in that category and 2) reducing the amount of non-decision information players have to process that shouldn't be their problem.

In a perfect world I don't need to have tables memorized to speed up gameplay.  The game's mechanics should be handling that without any undue involvement from the players.

Is my point seriously so hard to grasp or so poorly explained that I have to reiterate it twice or three times per page?  ???

No,  we get the point:  You don't want granularity in the game.  The reason BT has that lag time is that it is one of the few games left out there with that depth of granularity, that isn't built for "Oh let's play this fast so we can go back to looking at our phones!"

You have your BT game built for lack of granularity in Alpha Strike, and you love it.  Great! 

And as far as making "quality of life" adjustments, think about this:  How many players out there still think hatchets hit on the punch table?  Or still think partial cover should be +3 and roll on the punch table?

You make those kinds of rules changes,  you're going to further fracture the player base along the lines of "new rules/old rules".   It would take *years* for those kinds of changes to percolate out into the fanbase and in the meantime, you're going to make it harder for those new players to find other players to play with.

Teach that the game is complex.  Teach that the game involves tables for resolving lots of things. Teach the little helpers and hacks that make it work smoothly.  But screwing around with the base concepts in something this long established would be further destructive.
"This is a war universe. War all the time. That is its nature.
There may be other universes based on all sorts of other principles, but ours seems to be based on war and games."
  
-- William S. Burroughs

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13701
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #251 on: 20 February 2019, 11:09:48 »
No,  we get the point:  You don't want granularity in the game.  The reason BT has that lag time is that it is one of the few games left out there with that depth of granularity, that isn't built for "Oh let's play this fast so we can go back to looking at our phones!"

If this is what you think my point is then you very much do not get the point.   There's nothing inherently wrong with granuliarity as a concept to include in a game.  The problem BattleTech consistently stumbles on is that the granularity is presented in the form of a dozen tables players are expected to eventually memorize and dozens more that not even BattleTech thinks is feasible to memorize, when it should be presented in the final results only, to the greatest extent possible.

If it's possible to achieve similarly detailed results (it is) with a process that the players aren't responsible for hand-cranking through every step of the simulation (also possible), that is a more desirable process than what we have now.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Apocal

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 548
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #252 on: 20 February 2019, 11:19:47 »
And as far as making "quality of life" adjustments, think about this:  How many players out there still think hatchets hit on the punch table?  Or still think partial cover should be +3 and roll on the punch table?

You make those kinds of rules changes,  you're going to further fracture the player base along the lines of "new rules/old rules".   It would take *years* for those kinds of changes to percolate out into the fanbase and in the meantime, you're going to make it harder for those new players to find other players to play with.

This is an argument against any rule changes at all. Surely, you don't think errata is quite that bad, do you?

Fear Factory

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4070
  • Designing the Enemy
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #253 on: 20 February 2019, 12:58:15 »
Total Warfare is what overcomplicated things. Look at what happened to vehicles. Overcomplicated by adding a ton of dice rolls and effects in an attempt to make them competitive against mechs. Who really wants to tract stun effects and different types of stabilizer hits? Disabled weapons? There were much easier ways to do this without using wonky multi turn effects.
The conflict is pure - The truth devised - The future secured - The enemy designed
Maj. Isaac "Litany" Van Houten, Lone Wolves, The Former 66th "Litany Against Fear" Company

Papabees

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 952
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #254 on: 20 February 2019, 13:33:14 »
If it's possible to achieve similarly detailed results (it is) with a process that the players aren't responsible for hand-cranking through every step of the simulation (also possible), that is a more desirable process than what we have now.

Ding, Ding, Ding. This is exactly it. Why use three rolls to resolve a thing when you could have a rule where one roll does it. FREX, LRMs; Instead of rolling for # of missiles have the to hit MOS determine it. A little less than to hit not very many missiles, a few over all missiles. Easy but the same results with much less cranking.

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11045
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #255 on: 20 February 2019, 13:40:13 »
Ding, Ding, Ding. This is exactly it. Why use three rolls to resolve a thing when you could have a rule where one roll does it. FREX, LRMs; Instead of rolling for # of missiles have the to hit MOS determine it. A little less than to hit not very many missiles, a few over all missiles. Easy but the same results with much less cranking.

Just to be clear, not at all the same results. As a clear example, if you need a to-hit roll of 12, currently if you hit that 12 you have a chance of hitting with all your missiles.  With your proposed change, your only possibility is the minimum number of missiles hit.
I'm not saying I'm against it or for it, but let's be honest when a rules change would change the results, in some cases very drastically.
Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

NeonKnight

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6353
  • Cause Them My Initials!
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #256 on: 20 February 2019, 13:43:03 »
Ding, Ding, Ding. This is exactly it. Why use three rolls to resolve a thing when you could have a rule where one roll does it. FREX, LRMs; Instead of rolling for # of missiles have the to hit MOS determine it. A little less than to hit not very many missiles, a few over all missiles. Easy but the same results with much less cranking.

However (to play  >:D Advocate), that would mean if a player needed a 12 to hit, if they then hit, their MoS will only ever be "0" which means they would always get the least amount of missile hits. Conversely, if a players needs 2 or less to hit, then they are always guaranteed a superb number of missile hits.

And then there are: AMS, Artemis, NARC and other similar systems. How do they fit in?
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19854
  • Cap’n-Generalissimost
    • Master Unit List
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #257 on: 20 February 2019, 13:45:31 »
Total Warfare is what overcomplicated things. Look at what happened to vehicles. Overcomplicated by adding a ton of dice rolls and effects in an attempt to make them competitive against mechs. Who really wants to tract stun effects and different types of stabilizer hits? Disabled weapons? There were much easier ways to do this without using wonky multi turn effects.

only if you use vehicles (and these rules were originally in Max Tech so some of us have been using them for over twenty years). 

 there were no changes in TW that made a company v company game of mechs only last interminably longer than it should. that's been true since the beginning.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
Interviewer: Since you’ve stopped making art, how do you spend your time?
Paul Chan Breathers: Oh, I’m a breather. I’m a respirateur. Isn’t that enough?

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13701
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #258 on: 20 February 2019, 14:05:52 »
However (to play  >:D Advocate), that would mean if a player needed a 12 to hit, if they then hit, their MoS will only ever be "0" which means they would always get the least amount of missile hits. Conversely, if a players needs 2 or less to hit, then they are always guaranteed a superb number of missile hits.

And then there are: AMS, Artemis, NARC and other similar systems. How do they fit in?

Even though I don't agree with the specific example being used (for reasons that are largely a matter of 'not far enough', not the general idea), wouldn't it make sense for an almost impossible shot to naturally have fewer missiles hit and an almost impossible to miss shot naturally result in more hits?  Glancing/Direct Blow from TacOps both do that already.

only if you use vehicles (and these rules were originally in Max Tech so some of us have been using them for over twenty years). 

 there were no changes in TW that made a company v company game of mechs only last interminably longer than it should. that's been true since the beginning.

One could argue that the partial cover changes made games take longer. ;D

Joking aside, this would be a fine counterargument if Total Warfare didn't include vehicles or other units.  It does, so they must be included for consideration.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19854
  • Cap’n-Generalissimost
    • Master Unit List
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #259 on: 20 February 2019, 14:21:48 »
i thought i had tacitly agreed that vehicles complicate things but i can see how that was missed. so, yes, vehicles, especially applying crits, can be a massive pain - especially since in a lot of cases, there aren't weapons in the sides so side crits more often than not loop back to crew stunned. I had to implement a specific die marker just to track it so we didn't lose count. I also for the life of me never remember the specifics of commander hit, driver hit, etc. i had to cut back on the number of infernos i used as well because a shower of those quickly grew cumbersome.

the problem though is that these are extensions of the cumbersome rules that we've been talking about. it's like noticing a rash that spread -  this new outbreak is just a continuance of what was already a problem.





You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
Interviewer: Since you’ve stopped making art, how do you spend your time?
Paul Chan Breathers: Oh, I’m a breather. I’m a respirateur. Isn’t that enough?

NeonKnight

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6353
  • Cause Them My Initials!
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #260 on: 20 February 2019, 14:22:19 »
Even though I don't agree with the specific example being used (for reasons that are largely a matter of 'not far enough', not the general idea), wouldn't it make sense for an almost impossible shot to naturally have fewer missiles hit and an almost impossible to miss shot naturally result in more hits?  Glancing/Direct Blow from TacOps both do that already.

Sure, if you're willing to forgo that a next to impossible shot should never be any of the following:

Through Armor Critical
Head/Cockpit Hit

If your argument for the inclusion is: No, sometimes a shot is just super lucky, then why is a proposed MoS of 0 never a 'lucky shot with all missiles hitting' then?

And I'm not including corner case/hardly ever used OPTIONAL rules from TacOps here.
« Last Edit: 20 February 2019, 14:23:58 by NeonKnight »
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13701
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #261 on: 20 February 2019, 14:52:25 »
Sure, if you're willing to forgo that a next to impossible shot should never be any of the following:

Through Armor Critical
Head/Cockpit Hit

If your argument for the inclusion is: No, sometimes a shot is just super lucky, then why is a proposed MoS of 0 never a 'lucky shot with all missiles hitting' then?

And I'm not including corner case/hardly ever used OPTIONAL rules from TacOps here.

This is a false equivalence.  It makes prefect sense that a very low likelihood of a hit results in a smaller proportion of a cluster weapon hitting.  That is actually how cluster weapons are largely presented in the fiction, too.  Your counter, which I'll paraphrase as "if this thing that is very unlikely is no longer possible, then nothing that is highly unlikely should still be possible," is a classic case of assuming that the reasons for each thing being unlikely should be treated the same - they very much should not.

I brought up TacOps rules because they already model exactly what Papabees was describing,  no other reason.

In any case, I mostly agree with you, but the reason that's only mostly is an important thing not to lose track of.

(Personally, I favor fixed damage to one location and reduced fixed damage to any adjacent location, with things that modify cluster rolls modifying the damages)
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10195
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #262 on: 20 February 2019, 14:55:40 »
This is your guys's periodic moderator caution to engage the argument rather than the person as the discussion gets more tense. Please keep that in mind as your brains think of Retorts because the other guy is Wrong. On the Internet. And must be Countered. Lest Untruths dominate the Internet. :)

Thanks.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

Apocal

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 548
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #263 on: 20 February 2019, 15:58:52 »
Just to be clear, not at all the same results. As a clear example, if you need a to-hit roll of 12, currently if you hit that 12 you have a chance of hitting with all your missiles.  With your proposed change, your only possibility is the minimum number of missiles hit.
I'm not saying I'm against it or for it, but let's be honest when a rules change would change the results, in some cases very drastically.

However (to play  >:D Advocate), that would mean if a player needed a 12 to hit, if they then hit, their MoS will only ever be "0" which means they would always get the least amount of missile hits.

Not necessarily; it could be instead of using the MoS, the MoF still allows a few missiles to hit, just not very many. Like rolling a 3 on the cluster table if miss the TN by 1.

Conversely, if a players needs 2 or less to hit, then they are always guaranteed a superb number of missile hits.

And then there are: AMS, Artemis, NARC and other similar systems. How do they fit in?

I'd imagine they'd still improve or degrade the end result, although the big sticking point is launchers with a large number of missiles and the lack of granularity running things via the MoS/MoF. If Artemis/Narc still gave their present bonuses, that would become quite an effective boost in their relative strength. Personally, I think that is a good thing, because I don't see Narcs as being worth it, but that's an opinion, not an objective fact.

NeonKnight

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6353
  • Cause Them My Initials!
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #264 on: 20 February 2019, 16:12:46 »
Not necessarily; it could be instead of using the MoS, the MoF still allows a few missiles to hit, just not very many. Like rolling a 3 on the cluster table if miss the TN by 1.


And that is the same as what I am saying. If a player needs to roll a 12 to hit, it is like saying that player always rolls the lowest result on a cluster table.

Conversely if a Player rolls a 12 while needing to roll a 3 to hit, its saying they always hit with every missile.

There is a reason why duck hunters hunt with buckshot after all...you don;t need to be a crack shot, just need to shoot in the general area of the duck to take it down. https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-shoot-ducks-with-shotguns

And that is why I have a hard time with the MoS/MoF aspect. It's saying Lucky shots can never happen, and Easy shots never have a chance to fail (because of faulty missiles/ammunition).
« Last Edit: 20 February 2019, 16:15:12 by NeonKnight »
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

Apocal

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 548
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #265 on: 20 February 2019, 16:17:22 »
And that is the same as what I am saying. If a player needs to roll a 12 to hit, it is like saying that player always rolls the lowest result on a cluster table.

You could anchor MoS = 0 to being something like 7 on the cluster hit table, you know...

RoundTop

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1372
  • In Takashi We Trust
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #266 on: 20 February 2019, 16:36:32 »
You could anchor MoS = 0 to being something like 7 on the cluster hit table, you know...

I've stayed out of this, but I want to add something in breifly.

The big problem with MoS for cluster weapons is that it makes them more powerful (hunh?!) or less powerful. 

The biggest thing with Battletech is the to-hit roll being pass/fail. You make the shot or you didn't.  This applies to PPCs or missiles.  But with an MoS system, you are either penalizing missiles (for needing MoS >0 for average damage), which often shoot at longer ranges anyways (and higher TNs).   Or you use MoF, where even if you "miss" by 1 or 2, some still hit.  The problem is that this gives cluster weapons a "pulse bonus", where you can shotgun spam it, knowing you almost can't hit on a 12, but if you get 10s you can still deal damage to that light mech. This unbalances everything else, as cluster weapons now become more powerful (Which isn't a bad thing for IS LRMs, but for SRMs, LBX, and clan weapons, it is not good).

Do I have a suggestion for making it better? No, no I don't. But making it MoS/MoF based will unbalance cluster weapons compared to all other weapons (either + or -), which would mandate a much larger re-check.


I think there is an argument to simplify criticals to using polyhedral dice (it is much faster than the 1d6+1d6 system) with an optional 1d6+1d6 if you don't have polyhedrals.

No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
Demo team agent #772

ActionButler

  • Global Moderator
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5844
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #267 on: 20 February 2019, 16:42:13 »
And that is the same as what I am saying. If a player needs to roll a 12 to hit, it is like saying that player always rolls the lowest result on a cluster table.

Conversely if a Player rolls a 12 while needing to roll a 3 to hit, its saying they always hit with every missile.

There is a reason why duck hunters hunt with buckshot after all...you don;t need to be a crack shot, just need to shoot in the general area of the duck to take it down. https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-shoot-ducks-with-shotguns

And that is why I have a hard time with the MoS/MoF aspect. It's saying Lucky shots can never happen, and Easy shots never have a chance to fail (because of faulty missiles/ammunition).

As much as I hate MoS mechanics - and I suuuuuuper hate MoS mechanics - it actually DOES make a lot of sense for cluster attacks, IMO (depending on how many missiles or LBX pellets an MoS of 0 equals and how the scale advances from 0). 

You're trying to pull off an almost impossible attack and you succeed?  Great work! Well done! But it was almost impossible, so you aren't going to see a lot of payoff even though you did make the shot.

You're trying to make a really easy shot and you roll high? Also great work! You took an easy shot and our highly advanced targeting computers and ballistic weapons did the rest of the work for you. 

I mean... that just seems pretty reasonable.  In the former case, the lucky shot did, in fact, happen.  You didn't hit with a lot of missiles, but it was a difficult shot so getting a full flight on-target was probably unlikely anyway.  In the latter case, why shouldn't an easy shot be easy to make?  Or, more to the point, why shouldn't a player be rewarded for rolling high on an easy shot? 

Experimental Technical Readout: The School
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56420.0

NeonKnight

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6353
  • Cause Them My Initials!
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #268 on: 20 February 2019, 16:59:40 »
As much as I hate MoS mechanics - and I suuuuuuper hate MoS mechanics - it actually DOES make a lot of sense for cluster attacks, IMO (depending on how many missiles or LBX pellets an MoS of 0 equals and how the scale advances from 0). 

You're trying to pull off an almost impossible attack and you succeed?  Great work! Well done! But it was almost impossible, so you aren't going to see a lot of payoff even though you did make the shot.

You're trying to make a really easy shot and you roll high? Also great work! You took an easy shot and our highly advanced targeting computers and ballistic weapons did the rest of the work for you. 

I mean... that just seems pretty reasonable.  In the former case, the lucky shot did, in fact, happen.  You didn't hit with a lot of missiles, but it was a difficult shot so getting a full flight on-target was probably unlikely anyway.  In the latter case, why shouldn't an easy shot be easy to make?  Or, more to the point, why shouldn't a player be rewarded for rolling high on an easy shot?

And while on the one hand I agree, on the other hand it loses a lot of the 'hand-waveium' behind the scene rationals for such cluster rolls in the first place:

Consider: Needing a 12 means the 'Lock-on window' is extremely tight, and by rolling a 12 means I had fire right as lock was achieved. GREAT, now the cluster roll is the representation of the Anime-eque, missiles screaming in, some hitting a tree branch, the mech ducking and jiving, etc, whatever head-cannon visual you want to give it. So, sure maybe it was a lucky shot I barely got off, and maybe your 'mech pilot was looking for his dropped Bon-Jovi 'Slippery When Wet' retro '80's 8-trak cassette while standing in the open?

On the flip side...I need a 2 to hit (for whatever reason) and I fire, but (hand-wavium), their was an internal glitch in the optics of the missiles, or they happened to be loaded up with Windows 3.1 Operation system and don't have the current Updates and patchs to DRIVERS, and as a result most of the missiles  simply sputter and fall useless to the ground mere meters infront of me. Sure, I had Solid LOCK-ON TONES for the Weapons system, but the missiles were total garbage, and only a few of them actually had the true lock on.

THESE are the stories we tell around my gaming table as to explain the Crap-tacular vs spectacular cluster rolls. And turning them to an 'average always' MoS/MoF aspect based on my rolls takes a lot away from the narrative that is the game.
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13701
Re: Battletech Rules Modification Discussion
« Reply #269 on: 20 February 2019, 17:13:51 »
Making up stories to explain the arbitrarily assigned meaning to sequential results on 2d6 is, and I'm understating things a little bit here, in every single way absolutely ****** irrelevant as it pertains to how the rules work.

You will still be able to have fun establishing a narrative for your games no matter what the actual mechanics are.  No one is or I wager ever will tell you that you can't or shouldn't do that, or may even applaud you and your group for imagination.

With that applause in mind: no one (group of) player's imagination should hinder the mechanics of the game.  Ever.  It's as classic an example of the cart pulling the horse as I've ever heard.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.