Author Topic: Setting up Kursk  (Read 2778 times)

Colt Ward

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Setting up Kursk
« on: 04 March 2018, 06:56:39 »
The largest tank battle in history, Kursk, was fought over the steppes of Russia- a lot of flat open ground that when dry is good for tank/mechanized warfare.  Or at least it seems that way from the pictures.  To recreate that sort of tank battle without mechs being involved could be sort of complicated- even just slices of it.  For my purposes I am looking for opinions . . .

What FedSuns tanks, vehicles, BA and infantry would best simulate either side in '68? 3140?

What CapCon tanks, vehicles, BA and infantry would best simulate either side in '68?  3140?
Colt Ward
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marauder648

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #1 on: 04 March 2018, 09:10:41 »
Hmmmmmmm....

Cappies 3140

As the Germans

Tiger analogue, IE big, tough and well armed - Behemoth II's
Panther analogue - Pixiu
Panzer IV analogue - Po II (AC or gauss, your choice, NO stealth) - These would form the vast majority of the battle line.
Stug/Panzerjager analogue - Regulators
Elephant/Ferdinand Tank destroyer Analogue - Unknown, something slow and tough with a big ass, long range gun, so a Gauss rifle then.

As the Russians

Po's and Po II's all of them. Ever.  All Po II's would have the Ultra 20. No Gauss rifles.
SU-85 analogue - LB-10 hetzers
SU-152 analogue - Not a clue, something slow but with a very potent gun with a good range on it, preferably a gauss in a fixed mounting.

Not so sure about the Suns forces but you could use the Hanse as the Stug/Panzerjager analogue quite easily

« Last Edit: 04 March 2018, 09:16:27 by marauder648 »
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Ruger

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #2 on: 04 March 2018, 09:19:02 »
From the way you pose the question, it sounds that you, like me, would not be sure which side would best match each side...

I personally would prefer to think of this as an Age of War battle...but that's mostly so I could see FedSuns Tiger's going against CapCon Korvin's...

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marauder648

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #3 on: 04 March 2018, 09:34:09 »
Aye I had that issue too.

If we had the cappies as the Russians then it would just be swarms of Po/Po II's supported by Hetzers and the odd Behemoth I in there to represent the KV-1/Churchills the Soviets had at the battle.
Oh and Galleons to represent the T-60/70's that were present.
« Last Edit: 04 March 2018, 10:25:18 by marauder648 »
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #4 on: 04 March 2018, 13:00:09 »

I'd let infantry use tandem-charge warheads in their SRMs to stand in for the various anti-tank weapons of the time.  The Soviets used layers and layers of anti-tank infantry to blunt the German advances.  Without something that can penetrate on a hit, the BT infantry are too ineffective against armor to simulate the infantry at Kursk (or any other real-world infantry from WWII onwards).

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Daryk

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #5 on: 04 March 2018, 13:19:26 »
Dare I ask where you've been during the TW Infantry expectations thread?  The prevailing attitude over there seems to be that BT infantry is TOO capable against armor...

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #6 on: 04 March 2018, 19:33:00 »
Dare I ask where you've been during the TW Infantry expectations thread?  The prevailing attitude over there seems to be that BT infantry is TOO capable against armor...

Saw it but have not followed.

Game balance and universe flavor are one thing, which I assume is what that thread is about.

Adherence to the real world is another.  And real-world infantry have almost always had one-shot/one-kill weapons to penetrate armor and take out tanks.  The closest analogy in BT is the TC warhead for SRMs.  Hence my comment.

"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
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Daryk

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #7 on: 04 March 2018, 19:41:33 »
Critical hits fairly well account for that, I think.  Even in the real world, you have to hit a tank just right with those "one shot, one kill" weapons.

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #8 on: 04 March 2018, 20:16:49 »
And an MBT can often take dozens of hits from infantry AT missiles without a single penetration and not be mission killed.  While another gets a golden BB from the first one, very much like Criticals.  The missiles that are truly one-hit-kills (and there are missiles that are going to at least mission kill an MBT with just about any hit) are all too heavy for foot infantry to lug and only show up mounted on vehicles.
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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #9 on: 05 March 2018, 17:42:33 »
What do you mean as Kursk? the entire operation? or the Tank battle that every one calls kursk? Which happened at Prokhorovka between the II SS Panzer Corps and the 5th Guards tank army. As The Battle of Brody in 1941 was notably larger than "Kursk", and in 1940 theirs the battle of Hannut Belgium also had larger tank numbers.

If the latter then you would not have any Panthers as their all attached to the Großdeutschland Division, who is not present at Prokhorovka that day.

As of July 1st the II SS Panzer Corps had between it's three Divisions (this is just before the operation kicked off, the noted engagement happened on the 12th of July 1943)
5x Panzer IIs, 3x Panzer III with short 50mm, 178x Panzer III with long 50mm, 144x Panzer IV with long 75mm, 8x Panzer IVs with short 75mm, 42x Tiger Is, 25x T-34s and 28 Command Tanks
These numbers come from Jentzs Panzertrupen volume II

On the 11th of July the II SS Panzer Corps had
Panzer II ............4
Panzer III short...0
Panzer III long.....93
Panzer IV short...4
Panzer IV long.....91
Panzer VI (Tiger)..15
T34.....................8
Command............21
Assault Guns & TD..57
source bottom of page

Colt Ward

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #10 on: 05 March 2018, 19:35:54 »
I was meaning the whole strategic battle- thought about using the Campaign Ops map rules to set up sectors that commanders could move forces into and then have the tactical engagements played out.

Guess I would need to figure out what CF & VTOLs would represent the close air support too.
Colt Ward
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Colt Ward

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #11 on: 05 March 2018, 23:37:20 »
From the way you pose the question, it sounds that you, like me, would not be sure which side would best match each side...

I personally would prefer to think of this as an Age of War battle...but that's mostly so I could see FedSuns Tiger's going against CapCon Korvin's...

Ruger

Might not be a bad idea as it neatly sidesteps the whole 'where's the mechs?' question when we are talking about regiments of tanks hitting each other.  Throw in other things like Estevez and other VA vehicles without BA makes it a bit simpler to plot.
Colt Ward
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Colt Ward

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #12 on: 06 March 2018, 02:07:28 »
So for 3145, cutting the the bottom off the RATs were are L1s and the top 3 which are Clan tech . . . and dropping out VTOLs, AA, APC, fire support and artillery I get . . .

Assault-
Kelswa
DI Morgan
Demo (Gauss)
Behemoth II
Behemoth II (Fire Support)
Ontos (MML)
Schrek (Armor) PPC Carrier

Heavy-
Moltke M1
Manticore (HPPC)
Pike (RAC)
Pixiu
Po II
Po (HV)
Zhukov (Liao)
Po (LBX)
Manticore
Brutus (HPPC)

Medium-
Regulator II
Regulator II (Stealth)
Myrmidon Type 2
Predator Tank Destroyer
Vedette (Cell)
Hetzer Assault Gun (LBX)
Sheriff IST
Regulator (RAC)

Light
Minion (TAG)
Scorpion (Minesweeper)
Scorpion
Tamerlane Strike Sled
Tufana


Davion
Fury
Challenger XV
Challenger XI
Partisan (Quad RAC)
Ajax
Glory
DI Schmitt
Glory (Light Gauss)
DI Morgan
Schilitron

Heavy
Brutus (HPPC)
Morningstar
Manticore (RAC)
Patton (Ultra)
Typhoon (RAC)
Rommel (Gauss)
Manteuffel
Hanse
Kinnol
Manticore (HPPC)
Typhoon (LBX)

Medium-
Ranger VVI
JES I
Vedette (Cell)
Musketeer
Myrmidon (Anti-Inf)
Condor (Upg Laser)
Hasek MCV
Musketeer (80)
Sortek
Zibler
Ranger VV2

Light
Striker (53)
Minion (Gauss)
Scorpion (LAC)
Fox (VSP)
Pegasus (58)
Striker (61)
Skulker Mk2


So some of those would be MBT, some would be TDs and some would be more like armored cars.  I think BT offers enough models that you can also reflect the represented units in quality of equipment besides skill.  For instance, I would imagine the SS Panzer Division perhaps had better equipment than another Wermacht division due to Himmler but I have not researched the battle in a long time.  Conversely, I would expect a Soviet Guards division to be better equipped than a group of regulars since it would be the formative point of the A/B/C classifications.

Any tips about either a campaign map or setting up tactical maps would be appreciated from anyone with fresher knowledge than mine- for instance, should I use planted fields for the tall grass of the steppes or is that counter-indicated for BT rules?
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #13 on: 06 March 2018, 08:37:05 »
The Patton (Ultra) could give you an advanced tank (compared to 3025 models) that is somewhat unreliable (jamming).
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Colt Ward

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #14 on: 06 March 2018, 09:21:07 »
To clarify a bit more thinking . . . 3140 the Davions would be playing the role of the Russians using Harrison/Julian's defensive works to try to halt the Capellan onslaught that was taking down the Capellan March.

For 3068 the Capellans would be playing the role of the Russians due to Operation Sovereign Justice.

While we talk about the numbers and type of BA attached to RCTs in the FedSuns, what about battle armor attached to those unfluffed units- mechanized brigades, independent tank regiments and independent mechanized infantry regiments?
Colt Ward
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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #15 on: 07 March 2018, 13:59:30 »
It occurs to me that the Rommel (Howitzer) could be used as a KV-2, if any were present for that battle.
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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #16 on: 07 March 2018, 15:25:23 »
I'd let infantry use tandem-charge warheads in their SRMs to stand in for the various anti-tank weapons of the time.  The Soviets used layers and layers of anti-tank infantry to blunt the German advances.  Without something that can penetrate on a hit, the BT infantry are too ineffective against armor to simulate the infantry at Kursk (or any other real-world infantry from WWII onwards).
Dare I ask where you've been during the TW Infantry expectations thread?  The prevailing attitude over there seems to be that BT infantry is TOO capable against armor...
Saw it but have not followed.

Game balance and universe flavor are one thing, which I assume is what that thread is about.

Adherence to the real world is another.  And real-world infantry have almost always had one-shot/one-kill weapons to penetrate armor and take out tanks.  The closest analogy in BT is the TC warhead for SRMs.  Hence my comment.

You do realize that we now have Wire-Guided AT weapons for TW Infantry?
AToW Companion lists it.

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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Setting up Kursk
« Reply #17 on: 08 March 2018, 10:08:24 »
You do realize that we now have Wire-Guided AT weapons for TW Infantry?
AToW Companion lists it.

IIRC, it only modifies the to-hit roll by -2.  There's no additional armor penetration or critical hit modification.

I suggested tandem-charge warheads because they more closely simulate the armor-penetrating, one-shot/one-kill capability of real-world infantry's anti-tank weapons -- something that played an important role at Kursk.

Also, there were no wire-guided anti-tank munitions in WWII (at Kursk or elsewhere).  Just anti-ship.

"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."