Repost: Mech of the Week: Hellstar

[greatsarcasmo]

 [copper]
Let's keep the snide remarks to ourselves, shall we?

[Arkansas Warrior]

Honestly..If I was facing a Hellstar as a Clan Player against another Clan Player? The XL Engined Mars. Sure, it is slower(being
a 3/5), but it has armour and fire power.

If I had to take a canon 'mech Configuration, I would go with...a Dire Wolf-Widowmaker, and charge for the guns...
Because, honestly, the only choice a single 'mech has against a Hellstar is to do more damage then the Hellstar dishes
out. With a Widowmaker, I need to get to the AC20 range, and then iot becomes 2 ER PPCs, Ultra 20(and PRAY both
shells hit!).

Beyond that, if I was running a Hellstar....well, my group would tell you how I consider getting heated up:
"I am 19 heat? I have no ammo...FIRE AGAIN! There will be plenty of time to cool down once HE'S DEAD!"

Turkina D's got a chance anywhere, but especially in built up terrain/city.

[StCptMara]

Umm, you're forgetting the most viable option which is to turn and out pace the Dire Wolf in its direction of advance.  With a little careful planning and a willingess to back off in the face of unfavorable init rolls, the Hellstar can keep the range open to 21+ which turns it into a 4 vs 2 ER PPC match which it will win.  If you odn't want to be that picky, accept the added pai nof the Pulse and you still come out on top with your 20% damage bonus.  The onlyrealisitc way that the Widownamker would consistently ebat the hellstar is to get within close rnage and barring motive damage or conspiring terain, the AC 20 and ER Meds. should never come into play.

-Jackmc

Works on a 2x2, but for a 1 on 1 trial, you use a 1x2. It also depends on who gets the pick of terrain. If the Dire Wolf is the Challenged, then expect the terrain to favour it. The Hellstar has more limited options in that small of a battlefield. If it runs
away from the Dire Wolf, then it corners itself against the edge of the Circle of Equals fairly quickly..

[Scotty]

If you're fighting a trial with a circle of equals, you're probably fighting a time and place that the Hellstar does not exist. :P

[Jackmc]

Works on a 2x2,

ah my bad.  I work from an in-universe perspective not a game one.  Though even in the contraints of a duel, I can't see mech combat being done on that tight of a scale.  Realisitcally, I'd expect some thing on the order of at least a 2 km circle for assaults and much larger for smaller, faster mechs or the person chosing terrain is going to being looking at some major loss of face (though there'd be nothing wrong with chosing say 2 km of dense urban terrain if you're the Widowmaker pilot).

-Jackmc

[A. Lurker]

Really, the slower a unit is, the more it needs to depend on its enemies being nice and coming to engage it in order to be effective (because it certainly won't get far trying to chase them in turn), and the easier it will be to hit by comparison while finding them potentially harder targets. 4/6 vs. 3/5 may not look like much, especially on small maps, but the 4/6 -- meaning the Hellstar in this case -- can basically "waste" one MP per turn on such things as facing or elevation changes or more-difficult-than-clear terrain before it no longer breaks even on the AMM vs. own TMM comparison where the 3/5 has no such reserve, and it can potentially reach cover or other favorable terrain that little bit more easily as well.

Also doesn't slow down any buddies it may have brought quite as much, of course.

Now if the Hellstar absolutely has to engage your 3/5 siege engine in sufficiently cluttered terrain that it can't easily play the range game, then it's potentially in trouble because its mobility advantage isn't quite pronounced enough to reliably get into your rear arc (only takes 3 MP to do an about-face, after all) and your up-close forward firepower may well exceed its own. On the other hand, if your objective is to take it down and the Hellstar is in principle just as happy to evade your big guns all day long and instead simply take potshots at whatever softer targets of opportunity present themselves...that's another fight altogether.

[Sabelkatten]

ah my bad.  I work from an in-universe perspective not a game one.  Though even in the contraints of a duel, I can't see mech combat being done on that tight of a scale.  Realisitcally, I'd expect some thing on the order of at least a 2 km circle for assaults and much larger for smaller, faster mechs or the person chosing terrain is going to being looking at some major loss of face (though there'd be nothing wrong with chosing say 2 km of dense urban terrain if you're the Widowmaker pilot).

-Jackmc

Realistically, 2 km should be about 10 hexes range (for weapons)... ::)

[wantec]

Turkina D's got a chance anywhere, but especially in built up terrain/city.

And the Z is even better.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Realistically, 2 km should be about 10 hexes range (for weapons)... ::)

Good thing battletech admits it isn't realistic in the very rules.  Seriously, save the "ranges are too short" for another thread.

As far as the Hellstar, I see it as something like a battleship.  Heavy armor, all-heavy-guns, it's a great core of a force but it needs support desperately.  Folks already mentioned the arc weaknesses and such; it is vulnerable to backstabbers because of that.  Just like how great medicine for battleships is torpedo armed submarines, a fast, mobile unit able to get around behind the target consistently and generate high TNs - and doing it with a covered stealthy approach to avoid fire - is going to get through the juicy rear bits.  Snubnose PPCs are most especially your friend here - this way you can stand off some, keep the Hellstar facing your main force and jump in some medium-ranged-for-him/short-ranged-for-you ten point hits.

It's tough to bring down, but even the Yamato sank.  Nothing is invincible.

(Alternatively, if you're really daring, you could land a spheroid dropship on it.)

[Sabelkatten]

Good thing battletech admits it isn't realistic in the very rules.  Seriously, save the "ranges are too short" for another thread.

Honestly, I think the ranges are pretty OK (maybe just a bit short with newer tech allowing speeds far higher than the game was originally designed for) - But they're OK for the game!

The idea that a circle of equals should be ~2 km across assumes a realistic environment, but still uses (not very realistic) game ranges for the assumed result (long running fight). 200 meters per hex gives pretty reasonable weapon ranges from a real-life perspective (effective range for a tank gun 3-4 km). Seen from that POW a 2 km CoE would be just 10 hexes across!

30-40 hexes across seems like a decent middle way between playability and realism to me...

As far as the Hellstar, I see it as something like a battleship.  Heavy armor, all-heavy-guns, it's a great core of a force but it needs support desperately.  Folks already mentioned the arc weaknesses and such; it is vulnerable to backstabbers because of that.  Just like how great medicine for battleships is torpedo armed submarines, a fast, mobile unit able to get around behind the target consistently and generate high TNs - and doing it with a covered stealthy approach to avoid fire - is going to get through the juicy rear bits.  Snubnose PPCs are most especially your friend here - this way you can stand off some, keep the Hellstar facing your main force and jump in some medium-ranged-for-him/short-ranged-for-you ten point hits.

It's tough to bring down, but even the Yamato sank.  Nothing is invincible.

(Alternatively, if you're really daring, you could land a spheroid dropship on it.)

If I could bring any kind of force to counter a Hellstar a swarm of fast light-medium units would be my first choice. The 3025 Mongoose should work well - reasonably cheap, can take an cERPPC hit anywhere without serious damage (except the head, of course. But it takes at least two hits to the same leg/CT to take one out).

The Hellstar gets one salvo at long and one at medium range before I'm at short range, and then it will be kick-and-rear-shot-time!

[Jackmc]

30-40 hexes across seems like a decent middle way will be kick-and-rear-shot-time!

I'd probably be ok with 50 hexes, but much less than that and you begin to artifically constrain the movement of a 4/6 and we know that Clanners frown on TurretTech.


-Jackmc

[Diablo48]

I'd probably be ok with 50 hexes, but much less than that and you begin to artifically constrain the movement of a 4/6 and we know that Clanners frown on TurretTech.


-Jackmc

Agreed, and if you are really worried about the turns spent closing you can deploy away from the edge of the map so there are about 25~30 hexes between the two 'Mechs to start.  That lets you use a much larger map to eliminate wall constraints without having to waste time closing.

Good thing battletech admits it isn't realistic in the very rules.  Seriously, save the "ranges are too short" for another thread.

The solution I usually propose to people who cannot just ignore it is to assume 60 second rounds instead of 10 second rounds.  If you keep the speeds the same you wind up multiplying all the distances by 6 which results in 180 meter hexes so the ERPPC will reach out more than 4 kilometers.  It does admittedly bring up the question of why it takes 60 seconds to fire your weapons again, but aerospace units do that already and it at least solves the range issue.

[Slicer3025]

I think calling it an Awesome IIC would be more much cooler... it truly is evolutionary next step for that mech right?

[Ratwedge]

I think calling it an Awesome IIC would be more much cooler...

The Hellstar while it might share a somewhat similar modus operandi it is its own Mech with its own history and its own reputation that draws its inspiration not from the Awesome but from other Clan Mechs. Calling it an Awesome IIC would be boring.

[Moonsword]

It's closer to an AWS-9M IIC than the classic idea of the AWS-8Q, anyway, but again, that's a coincidence.  While there are similarities, the IICs are reengineered Clan versions of existing IS 'Mechs, not just 'Mechs that happen to have similar designs.  The Hellstar doesn't fall into that category.  The Hellstar's armament owes a lot to certain Warhawk configurations and its design goes back to the Cygnus, which has some features derived from the Warhawk and the Dire Wolf.