The Federated Sun's Reborn Part TWO

[VensersRevenge]

Agreed. Civilian investment will more than pay for itself in the long run. Plus all those civilian jumpships can be outfitted with Vengeance's and other carrier dropships and PWS' if the Suns have to fight a massive war against every Clan or something

[georgiaboy]

Agreed. Civilian investment will more than pay for itself in the long run. Plus all those civilian jumpships can be outfitted with Vengeance's and other carrier dropships and PWS' if the Suns have to fight a massive war against every Clan or something

At this point in time, Pocket Warships are a Paper Tiger. The only heavy hitting weapon they have available is the Nuc, you can even put a nuc on the sub cap missiles. But Nuc's are overkill.


Pocket Warships are only good in battles against their own Type, ie other PWS, since against other actual warships, their armor is paper thin, and for them to be dangerous to warships, they need nuc's. Against Fighters or other Dropships, their subcap weapons are more effective, and their missiles again should be carrying nucs to kill the target faster.


The best things for Warships to carry on their collars are for Fighter carriers, PWS with massed missile racks or standard weapons for anti fighter or point defense protection for the capital ships. Or even large amounts of marines to try and capture the enemy ships.

[Adventwolf]

Agreed. Civilian investment will more than pay for itself in the long run. Plus all those civilian jumpships can be outfitted with Vengeance's and other carrier dropships and PWS' if the Suns have to fight a massive war against every Clan or something

The whole point of civilian jump ship is that they are civilian infrastructure they are not going to be carrying military dropships. Merchants and Invaders are being built at numbers greater than ever before and a new yard with dozens of slips planned just started for just civilian production. Not to mention that several of the military shipyards also have jumpship yards at them that are also building more jumpships both for military use but also for civilian use.

[Billy Boy Mark II]

Can the current Avalon cruiser slips build the Black Lion II Battlecruiser or are they too small and they need a new type of Cruiser Sized slip? Also, will the Black Lion take the same 3 years to build as the frigates and cruisers or will they be longer? I would say the same as they are still cruiserweight ships.

Also, have the Wolfs-In-Exile at least been as smart as Peter was with this new retcon and been building new slips? They likely wouldn't build construction slips but they would build repair slips to give the fleet a faster recovery and if they get new plans for their ships upgrades later on.

The Avalon slips are a little small for Black Lions. But the Black Lions will be roughly 3 years I think.

The Wolves-in-Exile cant build warships, but they and the LA have built a medium repair slip at Arc-Royal having learned their lesson.

Personally I think the AFFS doesn't really need much more new construction capability at this time. The threat vectors are diminishing pretty quickly with the WOB now fully at war and the issue will be decided sooner rather than later. The Confederation is conquered and free Sunburst caps are being handed out for everyone. The WOB are fully at war with the ComGuards now and the AFFS will be jumping in. They don't really have any Clan threat anymore.

Sure they'll take losses in the final campaigns, but they have the shipyards now in such numbers that any losses will be replaced. Unless Victor is trying to build up to thousands of warships ala the SLDF, they now have the slipways in place to more than build up the units they need.

If you're going to build anything I'd suggest the civilian shipyards should return to being the focus. Because you can NEVER have enough jumpships. The Federated Suns despite everything is still well under the numbers needed to properly link its worlds together with dozens of permanent command circuits like a galactic interstate :)

The AFFS's massive expansion of the military industrial complex is slowing. There are less new factories and lines being built - and most of what is now being considered for expansion is for specific purposes rather than a general "expand everything". They will continue to expand their warship production, if only because they want to keep their edge and they have 100s of systems to patrol and longer borders now.

You are right on the civilian jumpships. Those have already been expanded on and they will continue to receive priority for continued expansion. Hence the new merchant jumpship yard at June and another massive shipyard building jumpships (and warships) at Filtvelt. Expect more.

The whole point of civilian jump ship is that they are civilian infrastructure they are not going to be carrying military dropships. Merchants and Invaders are being built at numbers greater than ever before and a new yard with dozens of slips planned just started for just civilian production. Not to mention that several of the military shipyards also have jumpship yards at them that are also building more jumpships both for military use but also for civilian use.

Yup, while the AFFS is buying a LOT more ships like Monoliths and Star Lords - for instance Develan is now producing Star Lords, Tramps and Monoliths mostly for the AFFS, the number of shipyards producing Merchants and Invaders for the civilian market is increasing as is production at the existing shipyards. Filtvelt's shipyards have been producing Merchants for the last 7 years at this stage. A new shipyard is in the works for St Ives, again to build civilian jumpships and the FS now owns the Capella shipyards producing Merchants, Invaders and Monoliths.

[epi]

Where can I find info on the Legionnaire? It´s not the OTL Legionnaire, right?

[thtadthtshldntb]

The AFFS's massive expansion of the military industrial complex is slowing. There are less new factories and lines being built - and most of what is now being considered for expansion is for specific purposes rather than a general "expand everything". They will continue to expand their warship production, if only because they want to keep their edge and they have 100s of systems to patrol and longer borders now.

You are right on the civilian jumpships. Those have already been expanded on and they will continue to receive priority for continued expansion. Hence the new merchant jumpship yard at June and another massive shipyard building jumpships (and warships) at Filtvelt. Expect more.

Yup, while the AFFS is buying a LOT more ships like Monoliths and Star Lords - for instance Develan is now producing Star Lords, Tramps and Monoliths mostly for the AFFS, the number of shipyards producing Merchants and Invaders for the civilian market is increasing as is production at the existing shipyards. Filtvelt's shipyards have been producing Merchants for the last 7 years at this stage. A new shipyard is in the works for St Ives, again to build civilian jumpships and the FS now owns the Capella shipyards producing Merchants, Invaders and Monoliths.

On the economics, mind you Battletech's "scarcity future" places some limits on economic expansion versus what the real world can do, but it works in over simplistic terms like this.

Let's say that you have a 10 ship fleet (could be a 10 ship navy or a 10 ship merchant fleet for some 31st century transport company). In order to have a successful fleet ie a functional fleet that you can maintain and repair, refit and replace and so on, you have to have an economy that can support that ie:
- have the slips
- have all the factories from all the different companies that produce the premanfactured shops
- have all the companies mining the natural resources
- have all the materials companies making the unnatural, synthetic materials needed
- have the companies that produce the tools needed
- have the educational resources that produce the human skills needed
- have the educational resources that pass on the experience in terms of worker generation
- have the necessary govermental QA authorities
- plus more stuff

If you have that for 10 vessel fleet, under freemarket economic concepts its very easy for your currency source (whether its House Davion in this fic or say the US Federal Reserve in our real world US and so on) to create some currency debt to produce an 11th vessel, slip it into the system via the banks and direct it to an 11th vessel via regulatory action and contract. We are talking about like less than half a percentage point, way less in terms of currency needed out of the total currency in circulation. This allows all those things up there to be expanded for an 11th ship.

However, if you want a 15 ship, fleet, creating that much debt to increase currency and therefore build the vessels, crew them etc, literally destabilizes your economy due to the inflationary pressure. So you build the 11th ship and let the economy slowly expand...and then you build a 12th and so on..but once you get say up into the 15 plus ship area, if you want to keep expanding, your economy has grown enough that you might be able to introduce enough debt to do 2 ships.

Victor has gotten to the point where he has an economy that supports this large navy. Plus supports his large and growing merchant fleets. So he does not need to go crazy to keep it trickle expanding.

Don't over think it though. Its important in a story like this not to bog it down with explaining everything.

[Cannonshop]

On the economics, mind you Battletech's "scarcity future" places some limits on economic expansion versus what the real world can do, but it works in over simplistic terms like this.

Let's say that you have a 10 ship fleet (could be a 10 ship navy or a 10 ship merchant fleet for some 31st century transport company). In order to have a successful fleet ie a functional fleet that you can maintain and repair, refit and replace and so on, you have to have an economy that can support that ie:
- have the slips
- have all the factories from all the different companies that produce the premanfactured shops
- have all the companies mining the natural resources
- have all the materials companies making the unnatural, synthetic materials needed
- have the companies that produce the tools needed
- have the educational resources that produce the human skills needed
- have the educational resources that pass on the experience in terms of worker generation
- have the necessary govermental QA authorities
- plus more stuff

If you have that for 10 vessel fleet, under freemarket economic concepts its very easy for your currency source (whether its House Davion in this fic or say the US Federal Reserve in our real world US and so on) to create some currency debt to produce an 11th vessel, slip it into the system via the banks and direct it to an 11th vessel via regulatory action and contract. We are talking about like less than half a percentage point, way less in terms of currency needed out of the total currency in circulation. This allows all those things up there to be expanded for an 11th ship.

However, if you want a 15 ship, fleet, creating that much debt to increase currency and therefore build the vessels, crew them etc, literally destabilizes your economy due to the inflationary pressure. So you build the 11th ship and let the economy slowly expand...and then you build a 12th and so on..but once you get say up into the 15 plus ship area, if you want to keep expanding, your economy has grown enough that you might be able to introduce enough debt to do 2 ships.

Victor has gotten to the point where he has an economy that supports this large navy. Plus supports his large and growing merchant fleets. So he does not need to go crazy to keep it trickle expanding.

Don't over think it though. Its important in a story like this not to bog it down with explaining everything.

Keep in mind a lot of your economic potential is being siphoned off by Comstar, and more is being siphoned by corruption at every single level of your supply chain.  How do we know this? because Catalyst/FASA/Fanpro gave us base average wages, tax rates, and populations, while the tech is filled with pretty common elements that are easily available (unless you, like almost everyone in the BTU, only mine the easily reached surface ore deposits, don't mine asteroids, comets, or airless bodies, and intentionally ship everything down the gravity well for processing before shipping it back up for actual assembly.)

going strictly by an average 'sol like system' (which you need if you want earth-like planets), one system in the OWA could outfit a larger fleet than the Federated Suns fielded at the outbreak of the First Succession War (assuming a population of roughly a billion and 25th century level of tech).

so your 'bottleneck' is spelled 'graft', and this is actually supported by the Neo-Feudal structure of the setting to an astonishing degree.

[Billy Boy Mark II]

3071 - April - Escalation

With the ComGuard's now heavily committed to the fighting within the Word of Blake Protectorate the AFFS stepped up it's preparations to join the fight. While keen to attack only when they were ready and had the required supplies the fact that their allies were already fighting and dying gave an added impetus to the Federated Sun's build up. Strategic stockpiles further into the Federated Suns within the Crucis March for instance were heavily raided to bring the stockpiles of equipment, ammunition and spare parts up to approaching the levels to support combat operations, while generous orders were placed with companies to expand and speed up production of the same on the worlds closest to the front - such as the huge ammunition works at Addicks. These efforts were at least partially hindered by the huge drain on materials required to continue to support the preemptive assault conducted by the ComGuards.



Not withstanding these efforts, the AFFS was able to continue it's own limited combat operations. Firstly in mopping up any remaining resistance on Graham IV, continuing the liberation of Caph and also launching a third attack within the Sirius system. At the same time the AFFS also conducted large scale raiding and false operations to tie down as many WOB formations as possible to not only prevent their own targets being reinforced but also to prevent the WOB from sending further forces to attack the ComGuards.



On Caph the 4th Davion Guards with strong support from the 8th Crucis Lancers launched a full scale assault on the central WOB Militia Division facing them on the 11th. At the same time the 4th Crucis Lancers launched a diversionary attack upon the 1st Caph Protectorate Guard on the WOB Militia's southern flank, while the 1st Argyle Lancers did the same against the 2nd Caph Protectorate Guard on the northern flank. The 4th Davion and 8th Crucis find themselves facing heavy resistance despite having overwhelming numbers and the WOB's 2nd Militia Division prove how apt their nickname of the Stern Resistance is, fighting on well past the point of hopelessness and holding back the Davion troops. The 2nd Militia's resistance only begins to crumble when the 2nd Caph Protectorate Guard collapse on their northern flank with almost two thirds of the local troops defecting or surrendering. Even then the 2nd Militia manages to fall back in good order (although with heavy losses) and reaches the city of Aswan where it begins to dig in. They achieve this only through the sacrifice however of the remaining troops of the 1st Caph Protectorate Guard who unlike their fellows remain loyal to the WOB and are rewarded for their loyalty and stiff resistance to the 4th Crucis Lancers by being used as a sacrificial rear guard to buy time for the 2nd Militia to fall back. With the 4th Crucis still maintaining pressure the 1st Caph stand no chance when the assault battlemechs and tanks of the 8th Crucis Lancers swing down on them from the north.



At Graham IV the AFFS and their mercenary allies complete the pacification of the world and begin securing it against any counter attacks. The only action of note during this time is the visit of members of Zeta Battalion of the Wolf's Dragoons to the semi-shuttered offices of Mitchell Vehicles which remain on the planet. Visits that are undertaken by the assault battlemech's of the unit who stand outside when a small team off officers go inside.



The attack upon Sirius is one that the WOB has anticipated and prepared for. Large infantry formations make up the bulk of the local three Sirius Protectorate Guard and these are bolstered by a battlemech heavy 13th Militia Division. While these forces can't expect to stand up to any large scale AFFS attack they are well equipped with artillery, battle armour and backed up by the 13th Militia and the extensive ground fortifications that have been constructed are expected to be able to hold out for a prolonged siege and cost the AFFS heavily.



Unfortunately for the WOB planners this viewpoint is shared by the Davion High Command. Which is why on the 7th of April the 2nd, 3rd, 41st and 42nd Avalon Hussars RCT drawn from Task Force Avalon along with the 10th Deneb Light Cavalry RCT launch their overwhelming attack - upon Sirius VI not Sirius VIa. The barely inhabitable planet in the system has only a fraction of the population of it's moon and of often overlooked by most. Which is one reason that Sirius garrison is a scratch force of two Level III formations of local troops who promptly surrender without firing a shot when they realise that no less than five RCT's are heading their way. This gives the AFFS a secure foothold in the system and the troops who are under the experienced command of Marshal May of the 42nd make the most of it. Once the planet is secure the reason for the inclusion of the 10th Deneb Light Cavalry is made clear when the veteran light cavalry formation with it's double aerospace brigade begin to make the lives of the defenders of Sirius VIa a living hell. Light companies of battlemechs, fast hovercraft and fighter attacks are launched from the security of Sirius VI and begin harrying the defending WOB relentlessly. Often elements of the 2nd and 3rd Avalon Hussars are sent along on these raids for training for their green troops, while the 41st and 42nd Avalon Hussars maintain a strong garrison to keep Sirius VI secure. Marshal May also has his engineers working on repairing at least some of the malfunctioning equipment and infrastructure of the domed city of Calgary, winning him a great deal of approval from the locals.



The ComGuard's during April also come back under the control of Precentor Martial Focht. The 5th Army is ordered to bolster the embattled 1st Army and their inclusion in the attack on New Earth at least seems to stabilise this battlefront without huge further losses. At the same time Focht begins stripping the reserve 6th Army of any Divisions which are combat effective and rushing them forward, while breaking up those which are not yet at that point in order to assign the personnel to mauled formations in the 1st-4th Armies to keep them combat effective. This leaves the security of the HPG stations in the hands of local forces, a fact that Gavin Dow decries shortly before disappearing from sight on the 28th.



On the 27th of April Princess Isis Davion (who is beginning to show her pregnancy) announces that the Federated Sun's has expanded further, with the world's of Clay's World and Third (more formally known as Third Time Lucky as a joke by the president of it's colony board) being added to the Cooperland Combat Region, along with the Clan Sun Jaguar world of New Huntress. She also announces that the Federated Sun's Terraforming Agency has completed work on replacing the long lost Star League era filtration systems on Rochester. They have also began work on repairing the ecological damage on Benet III to prevent further outbreaks of the "Death Mists". She also announces that the Terraforming Agency which has now been formally established in it's new headquarters on Manassas (and which continues to work at terraforming that world as well) will see it's budget increase by 20% in the coming year. Combined with the growing mood in the Mayetta PDZ to recolonize lost Carcassonne this prompts a large scale interest in the "lost worlds".



Under the cover of the very popular princess's announcement regarding the colonisation of new worlds and terraforming efforts as well as the formal announcement of commencement of work on rebuilding the Verde shipyards and a new jumpship production facility to be added to it to produce Invader class ships, the High Command push funding through for the new repair facility at Firgrove to begin active construction. Which in itself is merely cover for no less than four slips to produce Fredessa class corvettes. For now the four slips are being officially listed as manufacturing hubs and auxiliary dropship repair slips to be attached to the repair facility.



At Deneb Kaitos the second Kiso line goes operational. Even with the doubling of production this isn't anywhere near to keeping up with the orders being placed for this huge construction industrial mech. Funding is rapidly obtained from a joint combination of private banks and the FedSun's Government to double production to four lines.



Norse Battlemech Works on Mayetta see's it's Avatar-O line go operational. For now this brings the expansion of the facility to a halt.



Sapphire Metals approach New Independence Weaponry and make an offer for the Akuma battlemech design. This offer is backed by the Duke of Robinson in private, and is bankrolled by a Robinson based financial firm.



Word reaches the ears of investors in late April that Achernar Battlemechs is considering some large scale new project. For now there is little information even for those closest to the CEO's and usual sources, but what little there is suggests that this might be the largest scale investment opportunity that the company has considered in the last ten  years - which when investors consider the huge expansions in the company has them salivating. The companies stock skyrockets.



The Draconis Civil War only escalates in it's severity and death toll. The 5th Ghost on Shirotori has no warning when the 7th Amphigean Light Assault Group arrive via a pirate jump point and attack them. However even with no real warning the 5th Ghost had come to the conclusion that Hohiro was likely to move against them soon and they fall back into prepared defensive positions in urban areas that are ill suited to the 7th Amphigean's fighting style. The 7th responds by setting huge fires on the outskirts of Brusk and Massona with inferno rockets and laser fire. The fires take root in the huge residential districts surrounding the industrial and more economically driven areas of the cities. When the 5th Ghost sally out to attempt to fight the fires the 7th is waiting and begin ambushing the individual lances and companies of 5th Ghost engaged in fire fighting. When the smoke clears three days later the 5th Ghost has ceased to exist as a viable entity (although rumours persist that elements have withdrawn into the civilian population) and the 7th Amphigean Light Assault Group find themselves the masters of the rubble.



On Dumaring the attacking Hohiro Loyalists find themselves continually being thwarted into all attacks into the heavy mountain terrain. The 5th Galedon lead the defence while the 12th Vega Regulars back them up.



A popular uprising against the brutal actions of the 42nd Galedon Regulars on Xinyang is crushed with huge loss of life in the fighting. The battlemech's of the 42nd fire into the rioting crowds with battlemech grade weaponry and round up thousands for "trials". However word of the 42nd's actions have finally reached Luthien.



Coordinator Theodore Kurita sends words for his son Minoru to make his best speed to Luthien in order to confer with him upon the rebellion of his brother. An order that Minoru as the dutiful son immedietly obeys, taking with him the 5th Sword of Light as escorts. He leaves Warlord Li Dok To to continue to process the returning DCMS troops from the Davion POW camps. The Warlord filters out the Hohiro Loyalists and uses the rest to rebuild shattered commands. He does however use a handful of them to form a new formation, the Dragon's Tears - equipped with assault weight battlemechs wherever possible.



On Arcturus the invading Wolves are being driven to distraction. Despite knowing that they LAAF has large scale formations on the planet they simply cannot pin them down. Again and again they manage to identify and destroy small scale formations, but the LAAF refuses to give formal battle and the Clan Warriors are becoming increasingly frustrated.



However even as his plans are working Adam Steiner receives word of a further reversal. Hood IV, Kowloon, Winter and Jerangle have all been struck by forces identifying themselves as Clan Ice Hellion. While the invaders have only shown limited numbers of omnimech's and battlemechs and only a single warship - the Impaler a Lola III class destroyer - it has been more than sufficient to overrun all four worlds in a matter of weeks. While the loss of the small battlemech factory on Winter is no huge loss, any loss is painful at this stage for the Lyran Alliance. He considers briefly sending orders to divert some of his relief force to drive the Hellions out, but decides he cant risk it. There will always be time to deal with them later...



Clan Snow Raven dispatches an envoy to Clan Ghost Bear in April to discuss the possibility of an alliance. The two clans have historically always got on and this would not be the first joint agreement between them. The envoy will have to go around the Draconis Combine due to the civil war there and the Snow Ravens know that the Combine will react with extreme hostility to any proposed alliance between themselves and the Ghost Bears... As well it should given who would be the almost certain target of any such alliance...

[Billy Boy Mark II]

Where can I find info on the Legionnaire? It´s not the OTL Legionnaire, right?

It is the OTL Legionnaire. Mainly due to the fact that it's a logical design that had already started designing early on before the Jihad.

[thtadthtshldntb]

Keep in mind a lot of your economic potential is being siphoned off by Comstar, and more is being siphoned by corruption at every single level of your supply chain.  How do we know this? because Catalyst/FASA/Fanpro gave us base average wages, tax rates, and populations, while the tech is filled with pretty common elements that are easily available (unless you, like almost everyone in the BTU, only mine the easily reached surface ore deposits, don't mine asteroids, comets, or airless bodies, and intentionally ship everything down the gravity well for processing before shipping it back up for actual assembly.)

going strictly by an average 'sol like system' (which you need if you want earth-like planets), one system in the OWA could outfit a larger fleet than the Federated Suns fielded at the outbreak of the First Succession War (assuming a population of roughly a billion and 25th century level of tech).

so your 'bottleneck' is spelled 'graft', and this is actually supported by the Neo-Feudal structure of the setting to an astonishing degree.

Well that's the main issue with any economic system other than free markets. People will basically "apply capitalism" and bribe/graft their way around the road blocks.

As I mention, its a limit of the setting. Essentially Battletech is medieval economics in interstellar space by design. IIRC, the setting was put together before non scientists began to realize how little as a percentage of the actual mineral wealth of the solar system we have access to in the crust of the Earth. There are literally hundreds or more known asteroids with sizable percentages of the amount of iron currently in use on the Earth just floating there that we know of...and likely 10s of thousands more in the asteroid belt.

Theres a reason Elon Musk has robotic asteroid mining on his agenda.

If you were to "Redo" battletech with known actual real world science and economics, the scale of destruction of the first 2 Succession Wars is several orders of magnitude worse. Like more on the scale of what the Vorlons and Shadows had decided to do when the jig was up at the end of the current Shadow War Cycle in B5...they were basically sterilized world after world.

[Chris OFarrell]

Sounds like Dow is going full Furherbunker. And/or had Foch retire him like he did Myndo...

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Or finally ran off to his true masters.

[Adventwolf]

Sounds like Dow is going full Furherbunker. And/or had Foch retire him like he did Myndo...

Pretty sure Focht either killed him or has locked him up to be put on trial publicly for all the IS and ComStar to see. Keeping him alive and Destroying his clout and legacy with a trial is the smartest move.

Or finally ran off to his true masters.

What true masters? We have been over this Dow is not WoB he is an idiot and blind man that refused to accept the reality of the situation.

[Chris OFarrell]

On trial for what?

Nominally, Dow is the Primus and has absolute authority to tell the ComGuards to do whatever the hell he wants them to do.

In reality his position is a lot weaker because the tail wags the dog thanks to Focht's immense respect inside the ComGuards, the Inner Sphere as a whole and Comstars relying on him to hopefully get Terra back and moving against Focht means there really isn't anyone competent and liked enough to replace him (to say nothing of the risk of Focht simply refusing the order and launching either a soft or hard coup because everyone remembers what happened to Myndo), so the tail wags the dog a considerable amount.

So while Focht may have retired him or 'retired' him, there in no way he could be put on trial without it being a complete farce of a show trial because you don't get to put your leader on trial for giving orders he is entitled to give. I mean, what court exactly would you try him him that would have standing and for what crimes?

[thtadthtshldntb]

On trial for what?

Nominally, Dow is the Primus and has absolute authority to tell the ComGuards to do whatever the hell he wants them to do.

In reality his position is a lot weaker because the tail wags the dog thanks to Focht's immense respect inside the ComGuards, the Inner Sphere as a whole and Comstars relying on him to hopefully get Terra back and moving against Focht means there really isn't anyone competent and liked enough to replace him (to say nothing of the risk of Focht simply refusing the order and launching either a soft or hard coup because everyone remembers what happened to Myndo), so the tail wags the dog a considerable amount.

So while Focht may have retired him or 'retired' him, there in no way he could be put on trial without it being a complete farce of a show trial because you don't get to put your leader on trial for giving orders he is entitled to give. I mean, what court exactly would you try him him that would have standing and for what crimes?

Note I will defer to your opinion on this because I think you have a far more active memory of the fluff that I do at the moment.

But do we actually really know that? Is there a supplement that details in depth how Comstar is actually organized? I know there is the post Clan reorganization book but isnt that written as in universe fluff with Comstar and WOB basically having conflicting statements on like lots of it?

[Adventwolf]

On trial for what?

Nominally, Dow is the Primus and has absolute authority to tell the ComGuards to do whatever the hell he wants them to do.

In reality his position is a lot weaker because the tail wags the dog thanks to Focht's immense respect inside the ComGuards, the Inner Sphere as a whole and Comstars relying on him to hopefully get Terra back and moving against Focht means there really isn't anyone competent and liked enough to replace him (to say nothing of the risk of Focht simply refusing the order and launching either a soft or hard coup because everyone remembers what happened to Myndo), so the tail wags the dog a considerable amount.

So while Focht may have retired him or 'retired' him, there in no way he could be put on trial without it being a complete farce of a show trial because you don't get to put your leader on trial for giving orders he is entitled to give. I mean, what court exactly would you try him him that would have standing and for what crimes?

For giving an illegal order and sending his men to die. And just because he is the leader doesn't mean he can do that. The ComGuard is not under his command they are under the command of Focht. And it wasn't him sending the order it was him lying and falsing an order from Focht. That is illegal and the deaths are on him as well so those charges would be brought onto him as well. As what court a military court made up of the ComGuard as any other kind of action like this would result in. 

[Chris OFarrell]

For giving an illegal order and sending his men to die. And just because he is the leader doesn't mean he can do that. The ComGuard is not under his command they are under the command of Focht.

What?!

The ComGuard is absoloutly under his command, he is the Primus of ComStar. Focht and the ComGuards answer to HIM and the First Circuit, not the reverse!
Granted, post schism and Focht shooting Myndo, the Precentor Martial has wielded considerable soft power and influence on policy but in NO way, shape or form does it mean that the ComGuard is not under his command.

It would be like saying the US Military answers to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, not the President. It's sort of true in the sense that orders flow from the President to the Joint Chiefs in normal times, but it is absoloutly legal for the President of the United States to bypass his Chiefs if he wanted to and give any (legal) order he wishes to ANYONE in the armed services.

It's unconventional for Dow to bypass and sideline Focht like this, he clearly did so because he feared a coup against him if he tried to overrule him, but in the final analysis he had every right to give whatever orders he wanted to the ComGuards with or without Focht agreeing, legally.

And it wasn't him sending the order it was him lying and falsing an order from Focht. That is illegal and the deaths are on him as well so those charges would be brought onto him as well. As what court a military court made up of the ComGuard as any other kind of action like this would result in.

It's not illegal. Again, the Primus has command authority in this matter. Period. The ComGuard don't get to judge the Primus, that's entirely the job of the First Circut (who SHOULD indeed vote him out as having lost their confidence).

But the flat out truth is that legally, the Primus didn't do anything wrong. ComStar was already in a state of war with the WOB and he simply gave orders to attack, bypassing Focht. Which he is absoloutly allowed to do. That is how the chain of command works!

The reason he did it clearly was that if he gave Focht the orders to attack at once, he was afraid Focht and the ComGuards would simply mutiny outright and depose him and the First Circuit. Which may have been for the better frankly for everyone, but it wasn't because he didn't have the authority to do so. Which is all that matters in terms of legal questions.

The only power that the Primus answers to is the First Circuit - who seem to be entirely in his pocket, although this ****** might well cause them to find their balls with some prodding from Focht and remember they have the right to remove him from power.

[VensersRevenge]

"At the time these orders were passed to the reorganised 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th ComGuard Armies (a 6th Army was in existence but was assigned to rear area security, training formations and units which were undergoing rebuilding) under the direction of their Precentor Martial"
At the very least, Dow committed fraud by giving the original orders in Focht's name. The order itself wasn't illegal, but how he gave it was. If the President sent an order to the military, but signed it with the name of a Joint Chief of Staff, he didn't give an illegal order, but he did commit fraud.

[thtadthtshldntb]

"At the time these orders were passed to the reorganised 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th ComGuard Armies (a 6th Army was in existence but was assigned to rear area security, training formations and units which were undergoing rebuilding) under the direction of their Precentor Martial"
At the very least, Dow committed fraud by giving the original orders in Focht's name. The order itself wasn't illegal, but how he gave it was. If the President sent an order to the military, but signed it with the name of a Joint Chief of Staff, he didn't give an illegal order, but he did commit fraud.

Not a proper analogy. Comstar functions much more like the Medieval Catholic Church than a modern government. Even to modern day, the Pope controls the Catholic military (yes they still have one) directly, but has bishops who function as intermediaries.

[Chris OFarrell]

"At the time these orders were passed to the reorganised 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th ComGuard Armies (a 6th Army was in existence but was assigned to rear area security, training formations and units which were undergoing rebuilding) under the direction of their Precentor Martial"
At the very least, Dow committed fraud by giving the original orders in Focht's name. The order itself wasn't illegal, but how he gave it was. If the President sent an order to the military, but signed it with the name of a Joint Chief of Staff, he didn't give an illegal order, but he did commit fraud.

Yes but continuing that quote;

Indeed these concerns were so grave that it took a personal message from the Interim-Primus to the commanding officers of the 2nd and 4th Armies to launch their attacks and the 5th Army maintained it's position within the Dieron PDZ and did not join in the initial attacks. Subsequent investigations would reveal that the orders to attack were indeed falsified and sent out via HPG from the CSV Restitution without the Precentor Martial's orders.

It's pretty clear that when they called up to confirm the orders and the Primus said 'do it' they did so because the Primus did have the authority to do so. The 5th technically committed an act of mutiny by refusing to go, although to be fair, they can certinally justify it as the orders were highly suspicious in their delivery and how at odds they were from the previous orders they had been given. So, stall waiting 'proper conformation' or what not. While carefully unplugging their HPGs so they can't hear Dow's screaming at them.

The 2nd the 4th officers probably had grave reservations and if Focht HAD called up to say '****** this shit, stand down and come with me to take over ComStar and get rid of this insane Primus' they may well have come with him.

Of course that is also why Dow cut Focht out of the loop, but its backfired SPECTACULARLY upon him by throwing away half of the remaining Comguards and giving Focht the political cover her needs to simply go James McKenna on his ass.

[VensersRevenge]

But the First and Third jumped right into action from the false orders. And either way, Dow attempted to give an order in anothers name for his own political benefit. That's illegal by Common law and therefore likely in the British0inspired Federated Suns.

[Chris OFarrell]

Military Law != Common Law. All it is concerned about is if the person in question has the authority to issue the order. Which the Primus undoubtedly does.

With that said, I think I've said more then enough about this now.

[Adventwolf]

What?!

The ComGuard is absoloutly under his command, he is the Primus of ComStar. Focht and the ComGuards answer to HIM and the First Circuit, not the reverse!
Granted, post schism and Focht shooting Myndo, the Precentor Martial has wielded considerable soft power and influence on policy but in NO way, shape or form does it mean that the ComGuard is not under his command.

It would be like saying the US Military answers to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, not the President. It's sort of true in the sense that orders flow from the President to the Joint Chiefs in normal times, but it is absoloutly legal for the President of the United States to bypass his Chiefs if he wanted to and give any (legal) order he wishes to ANYONE in the armed services.

It's unconventional for Dow to bypass and sideline Focht like this, he clearly did so because he feared a coup against him if he tried to overrule him, but in the final analysis he had every right to give whatever orders he wanted to the ComGuards with or without Focht agreeing, legally.

It's not illegal. Again, the Primus has command authority in this matter. Period. The ComGuard don't get to judge the Primus, that's entirely the job of the First Circut (who SHOULD indeed vote him out as having lost their confidence).

But the flat out truth is that legally, the Primus didn't do anything wrong. ComStar was already in a state of war with the WOB and he simply gave orders to attack, bypassing Focht. Which he is absoloutly allowed to do. That is how the chain of command works!

The reason he did it clearly was that if he gave Focht the orders to attack at once, he was afraid Focht and the ComGuards would simply mutiny outright and depose him and the First Circuit. Which may have been for the better frankly for everyone, but it wasn't because he didn't have the authority to do so. Which is all that matters in terms of legal questions.

The only power that the Primus answers to is the First Circuit - who seem to be entirely in his pocket, although this ****** might well cause them to find their balls with some prodding from Focht and remember they have the right to remove him from power.

It used to be like that but post break and this war that is no longer the case. The ComGuard is only the purview of Focht. He is not the Primus he is only the place holder he "might" have the power but that is only because he was the only one left. And again the order was Illegal. He didn't say this is my order he lied and said it was an order from Focht. That is why he would be arrested dude. You seem to miss some of the things that happen. He didn't bypass Focht if he did he would be in the clear legally but what he did was use false records and recordings to send out orders as if they were coming from the commander of the armies. As for the Joint Cheifs and President analogy that doesn't work for one yes the president could order an attack but it would need to be approved by the Joint Chiefs because they would not do something that was obviously against the interests of the Nation without very good reason especially if the order was going against everything that was being done up to that point. They would refuse and while they may be in trouble they can't be forced to do the attack. As for the 5th commander no he did not commit mutiny because he did not refuse an order from Dow he refused an order that supposedly came from Focht that was too out of keeping with prior orders and objectives. That is the kind of thing they are supposed to do but according to you they are "TOO ZOMBIE LIKE" to think for themselves even though many did question the order. And it wasn't even that Dow came to them and ordered them to attack either because he never did when he talked to the commanders he told them that it was an order from FOCHT not an order from him.

Military Law != Common Law. All it is concerned about is if the person in question has the authority to issue the order. Which the Primus undoubtedly does.

With that said, I think I've said more then enough about this now.

Yeah that is at best a very surface level understanding of military law dude. It is not how it works at all. Just because you have authority does not mean you can give an order. The order has to adhere to a huge number of conditions to be considered legal. And that is further divided into even more laws for military, combat, and conduct. But that doesn't matter because falsing an order as if it was from another officer or even just another person is a big time offense and would get you charged and an order like this that led to so many useless deaths you bet your ass that Dow would be arrested and put on trial for it. Military is not a mindless machince that just marches forward if someone gives the order there are huge amounts of rules that they follow. But you are correct in one thing Military Law does not equal Common Law it is much stricter and far easier to break both for military members and for civilians when they get involved in military matters.

[thtadthtshldntb]

Yeah that is at best a very surface level understanding of military law dude. It is not how it works at all. Just because you have authority does not mean you can give an order. The order has to adhere to a huge number of conditions to be considered legal. And that is further divided into even more laws for military, combat, and conduct. But that doesn't matter because falsing an order as if it was from another officer or even just another person is a big time offense and would get you charged and an order like this that led to so many useless deaths you bet your ass that Dow would be arrested and put on trial for it. Military is not a mindless machince that just marches forward if someone gives the order there are huge amounts of rules that they follow. But you are correct in one thing Military Law does not equal Common Law it is much stricter and far easier to break both for military members and for civilians when they get involved in military matters.

you are basing this on how we interpret "common law" and "military law". I don't know that Comstar in this setting or as being written by this writer is doing that.

[Chris OFarrell]

You know I actually had a detailed post written up pretty refuting the silliness of Advent, but I'm going to take a hint from the last page of people saying they are sick of hijacks and just shut up and close this down, its just not worth it.

[EAGLE 7]

     Billy B will tell us how Comstar / ComGuards law works in his universe.
That said Comstar  was a Business that morphed to a Religious Cult to hide that it was a front for a neo  ludite Apocalyptic anti-tech( for everyone but Comstar) spy & espionage ring, that had a civil war and turned back into a business, which also ran Terrain Solar system government, ( for a few hundred years).

     My head cannon for Billy B’s verse Comstars legacy culture trappings mean power and position are not always the same.  Focht is the man who saved the IS from the clans, placed the bar of soap in Myndo’s shower that caused her “brain hemorrhage”.

   What little I know of Dow is he seems a power player and manipulative type. Com star would be someplace his political manipulations would be excel at. The type of SOB that would leak info to WOB to kill off ComGuard divisions for a power gain.

[thtadthtshldntb]

The model for Comstar that the game always used or seemed to be was that Comstar was like the Medieval Roman Catholic Church. It survived the Old Roman Empire and became one of the financial backbones and core powers of the Holy Roman Empire.

So Comstar survives the Star League and wants to be in a position to be one of if not the premier power behind the scenes in the new Star League

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Just my two cents: I’d be careful guys I don’t want to see a thread locked by mods especially a story as awesome as this one.

That being said: I’m surprised (or totally forgot what happened in canon) that the Hellions made for Lyran space. And that the Falcons aren’t trying to take advantage of the Wolves, in reverse of canon.

[Billy Boy Mark II]

3071 - April - Interlude: Avoiding bad habits

 Blake's Strength

Dieron

Dieron PDZ

Draconis March

Federated Suns



Interim-Primus Gavin Dow sat behind his desk awaiting his visitor. It was unusual for the Primus of Comstar, even an Interim one, to have no fewer than four bodyguards with him in the room when he met with the Precentor Martial of the ComGuard's but given the recent... difficulties... Dow thought it best to safeguard his position. And his neck. Focht had after all already shot one Primus and Dow had no intentions of making that a habit for him! Therefore four hand picked bodyguards were positioned in each corner of the room as he awaited the arrival of Focht and his key aide, Precentor Lisa Koenigs-Cober. The fact that Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht was attending upon him here, on the Blake's Strength, on his chosen flagship also relieved some of the sick worry that had been eating him since the plan to sideline the old soldier had went so horribly wrong...



Precentor Martial Focht and his aide strode into the room with all the arrogance that most soldiers seemed to wear alongside their uniforms and neither so much as glanced at the bodyguards in the corners. Focht's single blue eye glared with hate at his nominal superior and it was telling that neither officer saluted. Dow did his best to force a repentant look upon his face as he stood. "Anastasius... Thank you for coming... I know... well I know things have been difficult and that both of us have made mistakes... But i do feel confident that if we both work together we can resolve the recent situation and move forward in order..."



"Shut. Up." Focht snapped with cold hatred. "Shut. Your. Mouth."



It was a mark of just how socked Dow was to be spoken to in that tone and with that word choice that his mouth did indeed snap shut for a second, before he rallied and snarled. "How DARE you speak to me in that manner?! I am the Primus of Comstar, not some military lackey you can..."



At a slight nod from Focht his hired thug Koenigs-Cober stepped close and backhanded the Interim Primus hard enough to send him sprawling with blood streaming from his broken lips. Eyes wide as he scrambled to his knees Gavin Dow screamed at his guards. "Arrest them!"



Not one of the guards moved an inch. Until Focht snarled a single word. "Out."



At which command the hand picked bodyguards who Dow had vetted careful followed the Precentor Martial's order like automatons. Leaving him alone with the murderously furious Focht and his now coldly smiling aide. Focht couldn't really roll his eyes given his injury but he managed a fair approximation as he snapped. "You really are a fool, you thought that I didn't make sure you picked the right men and women to guard you? Dow your entire guard detail have been my people from the very day you picked them. Or should I say that you picked them from the carefully vetted list that Lisa here prepared for you...!"



"No... Focht... We can still fix this... I'll forget all about this... We can work together, liberate Terra, rebuild the order... You can rule the order... Terra and the other worlds around it even... beside me... partners!" Dow managed to claw his way to his feet using his desk for support with blood streaming down his chin.



Focht sighed and the hate in his gaze turned to disgust. "Dow, you and I won't be ruling Terra. I intend to disband the ComGuards as soon as this war is over... Comstar has proven it cannot rule and cannot be trusted with an army... Victor and I have discussed it you'll be horrified to hear... Your dream was never mine."



Ignoring the shocked man who seemed totally incapable of understanding that Anastasius Focht wasn't as obsessed as he was with material power, the Precentor Martial turned to Koenigs-Cober. "I don't want to have too shoot two Primus's. Bad habits. Would you do the honours?"



"Gladly." Precentor Lisa Koenigs-Cober said drawing a flechette pistol she had requisitioned just prior to making the trip across to Dow's flagship. Safer than a conventional pistol or laser to fire onboard a warship. She levelled the pistol as Dow began to scream for mercy and fired a single blast into his face, sending him flying back dead.



Focht looked at the dead man for a second and sighed tiredly. "And now we have to clean up the mess he created..."

[thtadthtshldntb]

haha, Focht's Theme song...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

The last section played in my head...during this scene.


There are plenty of ways that you can hurt a man
And bring him to the ground
You can beat him, you can cheat him
You can treat him bad and leave him when he's down

But I'm ready, yes, I'm ready for you
I'm standing on my own two feet
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
Repeating to the sound of the beat

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey, I'm gonna get you, too
Another one bites the dust

Shoot out
Alright