“Save” the Jags

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And the Falcons did the same thing on Coventry.  And somehow still had planets to return to after being there almost a year.

[Sjhernan3060]

Did the jags have a strong 2nd line and solahma bench? I know some clans like sharks and cobras had systems in place to quickly replace lost warriors but I assume the jags had nothing like that?

No freeborns either right?

[Jaim Magnus]

Did the jags have a strong 2nd line and solahma bench? I know some clans like sharks and cobras had systems in place to quickly replace lost warriors but I assume the jags had nothing like that?

The Jags were never that forward thinking. Seemed to have a very weak second line force.

No freeborns either right?

Correct. The Jags were one of a handful of Clans to shun freeborn entirely.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If this has been covered elsewhere kindly point me to the info but could any tell me what forces did the jags have protecting their homeworld assets?

This is somewhat of an interesting question. In the novels covering the fall of Huntress, there is a mention that Osis had scraped up everything available to the Jaguars into an ad hoc unit called the "Jaguar's Heart." Years later, 3058U has several mentions of the other Clans picking up quality Smoke Jaguar salvage from other Homeworlds locations, implying there were in fact still other units that didn't go to Huntress. I don't think anyone short of the writers could say with any accuracy how much strength this would have amounted to.

As for the robustness of the Jaguar Touman, it seems to have been substantial, at least initially. Luthien took a heavy toll on the Clan forces that participated, widely believed to have been Smoke Jaguar Alpha, Beta, and Delta Galaxies, and just a few months later two of those Galaxies were considered combat capable to drop on Tukayyid. After Tukayyid, where Beta Galaxy took heavy losses and Alpha mauled, there appears to have been some rapid rebuilding to get Beta back up. For Alpha, the mighty, mighty Jaguar Grenadiers evidently survived in some capacity according to ER3052, and both the 4th and 7th Dragoons who had been part of Alpha were transferred to a seemingly new Galaxy, Epsilon, for the remainder of their existence. It is well noted that the Jaguars from this point had great difficulty rebuilding their forces, with the exact writing being something like "rebuilding one cluster just to see another mauled in a raid." The usage of Inner Sphere equipment is also well known. The concentration of resources to rebuild both Alpha Galaxy at the same time as Tau Galaxy was said to be a massive undertaking by this point in time, making Tau's rapid loss all the more devastating.

As half the leadership of the Crusader cause and one of the power players in the Homeworlds prior to REVIVAL, the Jaguars appeared to have the same reserves as the other Clans would show, however they went through their reserves far quicker thanks to the twin debacles of Luthien and Tukayyid, and never recovered before the Inner Sphere came looking for their due.

[Sjhernan3060]

Just for the record I always loved the idea of the jag heart unit! For those who don’t know they were warriors on the cusp of being solahma but were in training or testing roles who got the chance at one glorious battle again.

Probably also worth noting they got the grunt work while the keshiks got to charge in glorious and shiny...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It was also stated that the Jaguars had neglected to build their industrial capacity compared to other Clans, so they simply couldn't produce replacement equipment fast enough.

And, of course, not allowing freeborn warriors combined with lower than usual respect for veteran warriors post Tukayyid meant that they also had fewer warriors available.

[Sjhernan3060]

So for a variety of reasons the jags painted themselves into a corner and with no allies when osis demanded aid rather than asking the other clans happily let them die. However I did not know about Ian hawkers sad fan boy obsession with the jags or the humiliation he endured from the jag khans.

It would have been cruel irony for the jags to be saved and then kept in debt to the sharks. While the jags oz was gone they still had plenty of under utilized enclaves in the home worlds and valuable heritages and unit designs to barter away...

[Sjhernan3060]

If osis wanted to cut a secret deal with the spirits how could he have contacted their leadership?

As ilkhan would he have the 3060 equivalent of a red phone to Moscow for all clans?

[Orwell84]

If osis wanted to cut a secret deal with the spirits how could he have contacted their leadership?

As ilkhan would he have the 3060 equivalent of a red phone to Moscow for all clans?

Unless there's a canon reference to it somewhere, your guess about a 'red phone' is as good as anybody's. You could argue 'for' based on it making sense for the supreme warlord to be able to contact any of his deputies in private; you could argue 'against' based on Clan honor, the memory of Tobias Khatib and his dodgy dealings as ilKhan, Osis himself being too honor-bound to utilise such secret methods... for gameplay purposes pick whichever answer suits what you're running and got with it.

It would have been cruel irony for the jags to be saved and then kept in debt to the sharks. While the jags oz was gone they still had plenty of under utilized enclaves in the home worlds and valuable heritages and unit designs to barter away...

Ha ha, that would have been amusing to see - the Jags in thrall to the Clan that's closest to being their antithesis  ;D

As an aside, has anybody written any alt-histories where the Jags do survive?

[Hellraiser]

If osis wanted to cut a secret deal with the spirits how could he have contacted their leadership?

As ilkhan would he have the 3060 equivalent of a red phone to Moscow for all clans?

Every clan world likely had an HPG on it.

Clan WS also all had HPG on them.

Finally the Spirits still maintained their traditional enclave on Strana Mechty.

Plenty of ways to contact them if you had the urge to.

[truetanker]

Yes, but would they?

Most likely no, why give up the prestige?

TT

[Sjhernan3060]

Besides huntress what was another big manufacturing world for the jags? Instead of attempting to hold all their homeworld territory could the jags have cut their loses and ceded the enclave or traded output so that garrison could have been freed up to defend huntress?

[Jaim Magnus]

Besides huntress what was another big manufacturing world for the jags? Instead of attempting to hold all their homeworld territory could the jags have cut their loses and ceded the enclave or traded output so that garrison could have been freed up to defend huntress?

That is essentially the plot of "Trial Under Fire". Set on Tranquil, Galaxy Commander Corbett attempts to stave off the destruction of the Jaguars. Didn't work.

Even then, had the forces on Huntress abandoned the planet, Tranquil had only modest manufacturing capabilities. The Jaguars had put all their eggs in one basket on Huntress. Their modus operandi was to take what they needed, not build it.

[Sjhernan3060]

That is essentially the plot of "Trial Under Fire". Set on Tranquil, Galaxy Commander Corbett attempts to stave off the destruction of the Jaguars. Didn't work.

Even then, had the forces on Huntress abandoned the planet, Tranquil had only modest manufacturing capabilities. The Jaguars had put all their eggs in one basket on Huntress. Their modus operandi was to take what they needed, not build it.

Thanks Jaim that makes sense and Corbett refused the recall order why?

[Jaim Magnus]

Thanks Jaim that makes sense and Corbett refused the recall order why?

I don't recall any specific reason given, but Osis looked weak, and the Jaguars followed strength, soooo.... he sensed an opportunity.

[Colt Ward]

The Wolves did the same thing before the Refusal War as well leaving no known front or second line commands to defend their homeworld holdings. This doesn't preclude the presence of third line (militia) forces like solahma, sibkos, and watch units which offer little glory to any would be opponent. Plus these units would likely be unbound by zellbrigen and near suicidal in their efforts to repel attackers. If any 'attack' on these worlds and inferior units proved unsuccessful in the least the consequences would be severe. Other Clans would probably seek out said loser as easy targets themselves.

Not quite . . . the Refusal War had three (or parts, Gamma & Delta were not complete IIRC) frontline galaxies involved, a single secondline galaxy (Tau), and maybe a garrison galaxy in the fighting.  One Homeworlds garrison galaxy (Omega) was in transit from the Homeworlds per Ulric's secret orders which leaves 3 known frontline clusters, and at least 15-21 secondline/garrison clusters in the OZ.  Probably another frontline galaxy in the Homeworlds (Wolves seemed to just have 3 clusters in frontline galaxies) or a quality secondline galaxy and a garrison galaxy if another besides Omega was assigned.

IMO the wording on Huntress being the home of the two Homeworlds garrison galaxies is a bit vague . . . since it does not mean each galaxy did not have a cluster or some trinaries detached to be the garrison at various holdings.  Now those two garrison galaxies were in such bad shape for material they were using IS salvage/cast offs to get the clusters up to real strength rather than being rosters w/o equipment.  And that was on Huntress, the capital and most important Jaguar world in Clan space.  Which means some of those other garrison outposts could have a trinary or two assigned but in reality only have a star or two of mechs- which can be covered up with the Clan bidding system until someone wants to exploit it.

One other thing to think of, the Xerxes fluff mentions the factory for the ASF on Kirin and how the Horses 'secured' it when the Jaguars fell.  So, did they move in or have a token battle against what remained of the garrison?  IMO it leads to the idea Osis gathered up whatever equipment he could and the warriors to man it.  Wasn't Hawker also bringing top Shark gear besides formed units to Osis support?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

IMO it leads to the idea Osis gathered up whatever equipment he could and the warriors to man it.

That was pretty obvious with his statement to Victor Steiner-Davion during the Grand Refusal that the trinary he had opposing Victor's forces were the last remaining Smoke Jaguar warriors.

[Colt Ward]

Maybe my intent was not clear . . . my supposition was that what Osis used was all the warriors he had equipment (of any sort) to outfit- or that answered his call that he could equip.  Corbett's efforts on Tranquil may have been the last official Jaguars, what I can find say they are but gives no dates and I do not have material with me.  Since 2nd SL forces left Tranquil while there was still organized Jaguar forces I would expect they ended up absorbed into the Crusader Wolves when they completed their control of the planet.  Such a defeat/absorption of the last remaining organized/recognized Jaguar forces might be where the Crusader Wolves ended up gaining some control of Jaguar genetics which was something interestingly enough not addressed in the Bloodhouse reorganization post-Reavings for the IS Clans.

The final Jaguars of course ended up as bandits, being the Dark Jaguar (Rosseau Howell) who used the Streaking Mist as a flagship until his forces met their end in the Reavings.

To the OP, not sure if you know but the Steel Wolves as of 3132 have a warrior who's gene-mother is of Jaguar bloodname.  She is a bit upset since it will be extremely difficult to win a bloodname (http://cf.sarna.net/docs/mwda_dossiers/death_from_above_30.pdf). . . which means that when Katya took Delta to join Stone they had some sort of copy of the Crusader Wolves' gene banks that included their acquired Jaguar bloodnames.

It also says most have been invalidated . . . no idea what that means since I do not think that description has been used before, but makes me think of the Mongoose & Widowmaker precedent in that most bloodhouses lay unused (what happened to their chapels on Strana Mechty before the Reavings?) but some are still functional among the Cobras and Wolves respectively.  The largest collection of ex-Jaguar warriors living the Clan culture would be with the Warden Wolves who per TPTB could be using them in their breeding programs & continue the Blood Houses . . . or it could be that the exclusive Jaguar names are those invalidated and only the shared names are still functional since those Bloodnamed were in other Clans.

[Sjhernan3060]

It was also stated that the Jaguars had neglected to build their industrial capacity compared to other Clans, so they simply couldn't produce replacement equipment fast enough.

And, of course, not allowing freeborn warriors combined with lower than usual respect for veteran warriors post Tukayyid meant that they also had fewer warriors available.

This also made me think of another gaming scenario. Where did/do the clans store their ammo and spare parts on their homeworlds? Is that something they do or is immediately shipped out to the various units?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Depends on the Clan.  The Wolves, Bears, and Shark-Foxes have always been described as having extremely good logistical capabilities (though the Bears did apparently screw up in the first stages of the Invasion of the Inner Sphere) while other Clans have neglected that aspect of military readiness.

[Wotan]

You can only store when you have a surplus of something. As far as i see the clan culture isn't made for surplus.
There are few clans that understand the needs of sufficient supplies - and know what is sufficient for what enemy.

[Colt Ward]

The Jags were busy shipping every military item they could make (few) or steal (more) to the Inner Sphere, which is why they defended with Inner Sphere cast-offs.  So I do not think the Jags would have any great source of supply cached on Huntress or other worlds.  When word of Bulldog got back to the Homeworlds?  I imagine they would have scrambled to send even more towards the fight.

I think a better question might be what sort of stores did the Star League capture intact or on DS in the OZ?  The remnants of the OZ forces probably met supply convoys headed for the OZ as they retreated, which means Mehta's forces that made it back to Huntress (and Corbins to Tranquil) were probably in decent shape for what they had escaped with.

Since Tukayyid the Falcons had started turning their most forward OZ worlds into supply dumps to prepare themselves for when the invasion would re-start- either with repudiation when Ulric was ousted or just the time ran out.  Worlds with supply caches or were able to directly support the Falcon's looming offensive became first wave targets in the Refusal War.  In fact, Natasha opened the doors to the armory and let the citizens of that world arm themselves to fend off the Falcons.  We do not hear much about it (in fact I think it just gets dropped) but it was a way to deny the world completely to the Falcons even after the Wolf forces had moved on as well as costing the Falcons time & hoarded supplies to re-conquer . . . and if they had not moved quickly enough to retake the world, the Vipers could have gained another OZ world towards Terra.

[Sjhernan3060]

That is essentially the plot of "Trial Under Fire". Set on Tranquil, Galaxy Commander Corbett attempts to stave off the destruction of the Jaguars. Didn't work.

Even then, had the forces on Huntress abandoned the planet, Tranquil had only modest manufacturing capabilities. The Jaguars had put all their eggs in one basket on Huntress. Their modus operandi was to take what they needed, not build it.

Could anyone fill me in a bit more on how the jags actually did their “ we do not sow “ economy?

Were they always on the hunt for easy pickings for food stuffs and manufactured goods?

[Colt Ward]

Think of it sort of like the tech support ratings in the Merc books . . . 'Clan can meet XX% of logistical needs for ground forces, can build/repair DS, build/repair JS, but cannot build or perform long term maintenance on warships out of their own resources.'  Or other descriptions like 'can barely meet regular maintenance needs- unable to devote the resources to rebuild badly damaged or salvaged chassis.'

For the Jags it would be . . .
Can build corvettes, JS, & DS
Can build ground forces to meet 50-70% of sustainment needs (two galaxies on Huntress struggling to field any Clan mechs)
Can graduate enough trueborns for high operational tempo
Does not have freeborn sibkos

I mean, honestly what is the list of what they stole?
They took the rights to the Dire Wolf design
Arctic Cheetah factory
good odds the Turk ASF was taken from its makers
What is the origin of the Liberator they had?
Look at the number of designs they share with other Clans like the Grendel

[Sjhernan3060]

There was a naval battle between the inbound forces returning from the SJOZ and the Serpent WarShips. The IS ships had a decided disadvantage of having already fought two separate naval actions by this point in time, and being somewhat worse for wear as a result.

The Streaking Mist made a quick insertion to drop off the ilKhan and what he brought with him before jumping out again via LF battery. Which is unfortunate, as a Black Lion likely could have destroyed or driven off what remained of the Serpent escorts. Hindsight...

After re reading the fall of huntress novels again, at one point osis considers but then quickly rejects the idea to use the streaking mist to preform orbital strikes on serpent. A few questions on that:

1) as ilkhan and senior jag khan could he authorize this by himself?

2) wouldn’t any loss of face in doing this been over riding by getting the win against serpent?

[Colt Ward]

#1- yes, lowest rank I think we have seen call for warship fire support would be Galaxy Commander- was it a GalCom or a Star Colonel for Turtle Bay?

#2-  Problem is with HOW he beats them.  Say he staves off the Star League by burning them with orbital fire.  The Jags will still have small detachments and stragglers to clean up unless the planet is Gibson'd.  Then its how it appears to the other Clans- 'you had to resort to warships to win?'  All that would have happened is the feeding frenzy on Jaguar assets would have been fought against whatever scraps the Jags had left rather than the Star League- and the process would have likely been sped up.  So the Grand Council would have formally moved for a Trial of Absorption or, and more likely, some Khans would have blocked it so they could snap up the nearest Jag bites.

[Sjhernan3060]

#1- yes, lowest rank I think we have seen call for warship fire support would be Galaxy Commander- was it a GalCom or a Star Colonel for Turtle Bay?

#2-  Problem is with HOW he beats them.  Say he staves off the Star League by burning them with orbital fire.  The Jags will still have small detachments and stragglers to clean up unless the planet is Gibson'd.  Then its how it appears to the other Clans- 'you had to resort to warships to win?'  All that would have happened is the feeding frenzy on Jaguar assets would have been fought against whatever scraps the Jags had left rather than the Star League- and the process would have likely been sped up.  So the Grand Council would have formally moved for a Trial of Absorption or, and more likely, some Khans would have blocked it so they could snap up the nearest Jag bites.

Could you expand on your idea re: other khans would have blocked the absorption? Who do you think would and why?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Pretty much every Khan who thought they could have gotten a piece of the Jaguar pie would have been trying to block absorption by a single Clan.

[Colt Ward]

For examples, look at what happened with the abjured Nova Cats.

They were outcast and a date set to when they were to have left Clan space while returning all the Nova Cat assets to the Clans as a whole.  After that point, any Cats found could be killed out of hand.  But numerous Clans, or at least the lower level political powers (Galaxy Commanders and some Star Colonels) initiated seizures of Cat assets and territories many without declaring Trials and treating them as dezgra.  Once a few commanders jumped the gun for the benefit of their Clan (and political future) other Clans followed out of pragmatism- get that Nova Cat Omni line for my Clan before those stravag Diamond Sharks!

So, after one feeding frenzy would it really be a stretch for the Khans to weight strengthening their Clan a little bit vs declaring a Trial of Absorption and trying to be the one Clan among 14 to get all the assets?  Especially when you consider that only a year or two before Taney was talking about kicking a Invader from their corridor.

Can you imagine the chaos as the Homies trial each other for the Jaguar's right for some world in the OZ?  Everyone but the Crusader Wolves, Falcons, Bears, and Sharks fighting for the right to try to retake a former Jaguar world from the OZ.  Well, maybe the Spirits would not since they would be licking their wounds.

[wolfcannon]

on the topic of freeborns warriors of CSJ, they did have 1 cluster of freeborns, Luthien (scenario pack) Book.  22nd SJ Freebirth Cluster, PG pg: 27, 56-57.   said Cluster suffered severe losses and surrendered.