The Martial code and the powers of the ilkhan

[Sjhernan3060]

In my on going discussion on how to “ save” the jags I hae become curious about what legal protections if any the ilkhan would have had against an absorption call or against himself.

If for example after he demanded/begged for help from the other clans at the GC and another clan had demanded the right to absorb the jags because of their defeats could the ilkhan have shut down that debate?

[Luciora]

Might makes right in the clans.  If the leader is from a losing clan, the rest will want to replace them with someone more fit to lead.  The ilkhan would be hard pressed to deny that.

[Sjhernan3060]

But could osis have said “ I will not allow an absorption trial to take place as we are being attacked by the IS” ?

His case to the council was that it was a threat to all?

[Jellico]

Call a Trial. Invite people to personally smack him down. I forget how good he was at combat.

Always resort to a Trial of you want to appeal something. There are usually some suckers.

[Colt Ward]

No body was trying to absorb them, Vlad's position seemed to be the generally accepted one- if they are worthy let them survive on their own merits.

afaik, the Clans' Martial Code is invoked but never spelled out.  The only thing I think that may hold up to what you are saying is that the Homeworld Clans were forbidden to launch Trials against the Invaders over important things or maybe at all.  To check that you have to look into the Hellion's Fury (or temper tantrum as other Clans called it) to see if they just tried beating up other Homies or made a few swipes at the Invaders.

The only other thing that comes to mind is Vlad's challenge of Crichell.  He had to challenge his status as a warrior due to the protections of being ilKhan.

[Sjhernan3060]

To clarify if someone wanted to absorb the jags then and there could osis as ilkhan say “ no I refuse to allow a vote on this”?

[Colt Ward]

Maybe, like I said you have two instances that get close . . . first, Showers or maybe the GC's prohibition about engaging the Invading Clans with Trials during their invasion . . . which seemed to go away after Tukayyid.  Second was the wording & specifics of Vlad's challenge- they said he could not challenge a ilKhan over something.

[Sjhernan3060]

Also after osis made his ask could a khan from a rival clan done the following:

1) declare him unfit to lead the clans and cast him down vlad style?

2) declare they would crush serpent to defend the home worlds

3) seize anything on huntress as isorla

[Kit deSummersville]

1) declare him unfit to lead the clans and cast him down vlad style?

That's a lot easier against a 66 year old MechWarrior than against an Elemental in his 40s. Lincoln was known for his beatdowns in the circle of equals for even minor slights.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, Vlad presented it as a test of the Jaguar's right to survive.  He turned Osis 'internal matter' rhetoric against him.

[Orwell84]

afaik, the Clans' Martial Code is invoked but never spelled out.  The only thing I think that may hold up to what you are saying is that the Homeworld Clans were forbidden to launch Trials against the Invaders over important things or maybe at all.  To check that you have to look into the Hellion's Fury (or temper tantrum as other Clans called it) to see if they just tried beating up other Homies or made a few swipes at the Invaders.

The only other thing that comes to mind is Vlad's challenge of Crichell.  He had to challenge his status as a warrior due to the protections of being ilKhan.

The Hellions attacked the Smoke Jaguar enclaves on Londerholm, so if a prohibition against targeting invading Clans was in place, the Hellions' didn't feel bound by it. The Jags allegedly responded by leaking intelligence to bandits that allowed them to kill the Hellion Khan responsible, so Khan Osis may have chosen a more direct solution than wasting his time mewling to the Grand Council.

As to bringing Osis himself down, other Elemental Khans such as Malavai Fletcher would still have had a chance in unaugmented combat - or a Mechwarrior could simply chose a battlefield where Osis' size and strength would've counted for little against an LRM barrage.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, but was that in '51 or after the Truce?  The Truce kind of screws things up, IIRC some Grand Council discussions it was about if they were even under their Martial Code b/c of the Truce halting combat.

[Orwell84]

Yeah, but was that in '51 or after the Truce?  The Truce kind of screws things up, IIRC some Grand Council discussions it was about if they were even under their Martial Code b/c of the Truce halting combat.

It was in mid-3050. If by Truce you mean Tukkayid, that didn't stop the Clans from attacking each other or even Spheroid worlds 'above' the truce line.

[Kidd]

If for example after he demanded/begged for help from the other clans at the GC and another clan had demanded the right to absorb the jags because of their defeats could the ilkhan have shut down that debate?

Look up Brett Andrews.

The ilKhan is voted in by the Khans of each Clan. He can be voted out. Nothing he says is absolute, it is subject to voting by the Council.

[marauder648]

That's a lot easier against a 66 year old MechWarrior than against an Elemental in his 40s. Lincoln was known for his beatdowns in the circle of equals for even minor slights.

Yeah and Osis was big for an elemental, it would have been a case of him picking Ward up by a leg, arm or head and smashing him against the floor until it stopped being funny.

[Sjhernan3060]

Now if osis had attempted to use the ebon keshik to defend the jag blood chapels on huntress could that have flown?

That is a realllllll stretch but again I asking in the context that osis would be pushing his ilkhan powers to the limit

[Colt Ward]

Judging by the Wolves sending Homeworld forces to the Blood Chapel to defend them from the other Clans, I am not sure there was much of a guard in the first place.  And Osis would have stripped it to get his forces he took to Huntress with him when he got no support.

[Kidd]

The game was over for Osis and the Jags the moment the Council decided to abide by the IS proposition that the campaign was a Jag-specific de facto Trial of Annihilation. That, to me, is the turning point; so if you want an alternate universe Op Bulldog, you can have the Clans reject the IS "Trial of Annihilation" for being dezgra or whatever, and band together under Osis to defend the Jags.

Which simply brings forward the Great Refusal BTW. But at least alters the background a little.

[Colt Ward]

It would not have been in time . . . besides, look how the vote turned out- he could not even get the support of all the Crusaders.  The few that did want to help (Hawker & Taney come to mind) all wanted something- like a chunk of the OZ.  No matter IF those Clans could have forced through some form of support in the Grand Council, it would have broken down into a Trial of Refusal, or ended up like Hawker-Ward where those who did not want the Jags help blocked any assistance.

If the Jags had survived in some manner they would have been reduced to a shadow, ranked with other Clans like the Fire Mandrills or Spirits for power in the Clans.

[Kidd]

If the Jags had survived in some manner they would have been reduced to a shadow, ranked with other Clans like the Fire Mandrills or Spirits for power in the Clans.

Still survival of sorts... I gather that's what OP is trying to posit.

[Sjhernan3060]

Still survival of sorts... I gather that's what OP is trying to posit.

Yes and to clarify I was speaking about the ebon keshik which answers only to the ilkhan I believe

[Colt Ward]

Not exactly . . . the Ebon Keshik answers to the Grand Council, having risen above Clan loyalties (supposedly) . . . they guard Katyusha City, Prinz Eugen and I think Alex/Nick's flagship?  They will respond to the ilKhan as the commander of the Clans under the martial code, but its questionable as to how much he can order them about or if they even leave the above mentioned places.  For instance, Showers (first ilKhan since the Omni trials) had a Jaguar bodyguard rather than from the Ebon Keshik.  Ulric Kerensky, who was elected back on Strana Mechty, did not return to the Inner Sphere with the Ebon Keshik- rather he used the Wolves Golden Keshik.  Osis also had personal guards from the Jaguars rather than the Keshik . . .

To further my answer about the 'shadow' . . . it would not be long before another Clan absorbed the Jaguars- or say a de facto absorption.  The other Clans did not wait for Osis to fall IIRC before they started nibbling at the edges of the Jaguar holdings.  Say they fought Serpent to a stalemate and offered them hegira which left some remnant of the Jaguars alive.  They had WAY more territory than they could adequately cover and so all those notes about what production & resources the Jag off of Huntress is lost.  Asa Taney of the Ice Hellions and a few other Home Clan leaders had made noises about absorbing the Falcons & Wolves after the Refusal War . . . unlike  that period where two Clans were sure to vote against any Trial of Absorption I am not sure any other Clan would help protect the Jaguars when their territory and a Invasion Corridor were the prizes.

The Invasion gutted the Jaguars exposing their logistical weakness, from '52-'59 they were a paper tiger bleeding out from a thousand cuts, and during Bulldog/Serpent what was left got hammered flat.  Look what Osis was limited in being able to gather after he launched his counter of Serpent- that was all they had in the Homeworlds outside of Huntress.  Bits and pieces that added up to a handful of understrength clusters only by stripping the troops from everywhere else.

If the Jaguars had survived Serpent they would have had the lifespan of a Jade Wolf.

[rebs]

Doesn't the Wars of Reaving state that the Ebon Keshik was more of a police force for Katyusha, the Prinz Eugen and a few other places at Strana Mechty?  That's what I remember, anyway.  An IlKhan could not just dragoon them into service for his clan off of Strana Mechty. 

[Takiro]

Ebon Keshik is the bodyguard force of the Grand Council and essentially Clan HQ. Not the ilKhan's play thing. Canon example actually had Ulric using the Wolves Golden Keshik as his bodyguard force and I imagine each Clan where the ilKhan hails makes a similar contribution.