Author Topic: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?  (Read 144535 times)

Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #120 on: 08 November 2019, 14:07:19 »

I am saddened that the RAF no longer has a fighter aircraft with a back seater as I do think that the capability to have someone concentrating on flying while another looks at sensor data or coordinates from up close is worth having (the other aircraft that would benefit from that in my opinion is the A-10)

They don't need that as much any more since with proper GPS, inertial navigation equipment and fly by wire systems, they don't need to do manual map reading and bomb dropping; equipment and softwares are getting more user friendly.

DoctorMonkey

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #121 on: 08 November 2019, 14:14:57 »
They don't need that as much any more since with proper GPS, inertial navigation equipment and fly by wire systems, they don't need to do manual map reading and bomb dropping; equipment and softwares are getting more user friendly.


I suppose I think of it as mixing the offensive/defensive thinking - if I, as the pilot, can either focus on lining up an attack while someone else on board looks for threats (like SAMs) or else I can concentrate on keeping my head on a swivel and looking for threats and moving the aircraft through the sky while my backseater focuses on making a precision attack with a guided weapon danger close to friendly forces and collateral targets one would rather avoid
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #122 on: 08 November 2019, 14:30:19 »

I suppose I think of it as mixing the offensive/defensive thinking - if I, as the pilot, can either focus on lining up an attack while someone else on board looks for threats (like SAMs) or else I can concentrate on keeping my head on a swivel and looking for threats and moving the aircraft through the sky while my backseater focuses on making a precision attack with a guided weapon danger close to friendly forces and collateral targets one would rather avoid
Re: SAMs - modern aircraft have much better threat receivers, and automatic chaff and decoy dispensers that decide themselves when best to deploy, unlike jets of that generation which still were manually deployed (at least the earlier models)

Re: attack with guided weapons - likewise with advanced guided weapons and bombing navigation systems they have less to worry about that these days

Aircraft back-seaters now tend to be electronic warfare experts, since that is now the only operator-intensive job they're needed for, but even so modern systems on the 4.5th and 5th gen aircraft can be comfortably operated by the pilot - supposedly the F-35's electronic attack suite is even more "push-button" than that

Although they do say there may be a need for a drone operator in near future combat aircraft, to operate "loyal wingman" drones. But even those will improve in autonomy eventually.

Sabelkatten

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #123 on: 09 November 2019, 05:22:46 »
IIRC the French navy decided to only buy two-seater Rafales given experience i Libya? The F-35 is certainly more advanced but I suspect operator workload is still a big factor.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #124 on: 10 November 2019, 18:54:57 »
So I made some pretty major changes to that one make-a-military project and I've moved on to the Air Force.  Anyone got really good sites or information like at http://armee-francaise-1989.wifeo.com/ for any nation's air force?  Trying to get a feel for how to organize the whole thing; something top-to-bottom would be best but I can only imagine that's a nightmare.  I'm looking for everything from national HQ staffing to individual flight regiments and squadrons.
Quote
Combat Helicopter Regiment
907 men
215 ground vehicles
Command & Services Squadron
Support & Refueling Squadron
1st Reconnaissance Helicopter Squadron: 10 SA.341F Gazelle
2nd Light Attack Helicopter Squadron: 10 SA.341F2 Gazelle Cannon
3rd Anti-Tank Helicopter Squadron: 10 SA.342M Gazelle HOT
4th Anti-Tank Helicopter Squadron: 10 SA.342M Gazelle HOT
5th Anti-Tank Helicopter Squadron: 10 SA.342M Gazelle HOT
6th Transport & Utility Helicopter Squadron: 11 SA.330Ba Puma
Information like that, so I can see how pieces go together and how big support forces are, then jumble it all up.

And since I posted a thing about helicopters, have a Raptor-Viper-JSF picture.



Looks like they're testing datalinking F-22s and F-35s; right now they only talk to others of their own type but there's work to bridge that gap and let them share all kinds of data between different platforms.  Networked Flying Death, ho!
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Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #125 on: 10 November 2019, 18:56:35 »
And here I thougt that's what Link 16 was supposed to do...  ::)

Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #126 on: 10 November 2019, 19:13:25 »
And here I thougt that's what Link 16 was supposed to do...  ::)
C3 doesn't work with Stealth Armour turned on, so they're developing an Advanced C3 that does

Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #127 on: 10 November 2019, 19:21:30 »
LOL!  ;D

glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #128 on: 10 November 2019, 21:06:05 »
more that LINK-16 is the datalink equivalent of dialup, and the high speed internet of the F-22 and F-35 systems only work for other F-22's and F-35's respectively.

the irony of course is that the swede's TIDLS already does most of what NATO and the US wants, but only works on the swedish built hardware and software right now, and no one is interested in converting away from the LINK-16 standard.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #129 on: 10 November 2019, 21:34:58 »
I understand they're playing around with the AESA radars to do this; all the 1700-some emitters can project separate beams and they're electronically steering them to bounce a pencil-beam onto friendly aircraft.

Creepy tech.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #130 on: 10 November 2019, 21:36:07 »
I understand they're playing around with the AESA radars to do this; all the 1700-some emitters can project separate beams and they're electronically steering them to bounce a pencil-beam onto friendly aircraft.

Creepy tech.

We almost had a research proposal at our lab to join with a company test theoretical airborne wireless charging of drones via AESA radar. Quite the tech.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #131 on: 11 November 2019, 00:00:43 »
wifi is watching you
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grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #132 on: 11 November 2019, 08:49:56 »
We almost had a research proposal at our lab to join with a company test theoretical airborne wireless charging of drones via AESA radar. Quite the tech.
I'm split between "That sounds like it could be a fun project," and "that's going to be a bloody nightmare!"
The balance between focusing(relatively easy), aiming/tracking(a little trickier), energy flux at the target(starting to get hard), and not frying everything but the power receiver(this would be Kelley Johnson's one allowable miracle) sounds "interesting," to say the least.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #133 on: 11 November 2019, 10:17:52 »
I'd mostly worry about the efficiency... I'd guess 10% would be fantastic, which means you're not only wasting a lot but you're also blasting a lot of Watts into the sky in frequencies other radio and radar will find rather irritating.

Bedwyr

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #134 on: 11 November 2019, 11:09:45 »
I'd mostly worry about the efficiency... I'd guess 10% would be fantastic, which means you're not only wasting a lot but you're also blasting a lot of Watts into the sky in frequencies other radio and radar will find rather irritating.

Yup. That's why it's basic research. To see if you can and discover where the actual edges of performance are. We've done basic tracking for laser communications before and Notre Dame has done a much more souped up version of this (it's now testing prototype laser weaponry):



The efficiency question is nearly all about freespace losses and only then what you can gain back at the margins through system designs. Relative angles account for a lot of it as well. Our first prototype would have been to see if we could get a bench system to charge *at all* and then flight test with tracking systems and see if that charges *at all*. Then you get another grant to see if you can improve it. That basically engineering research in a nutshell.

Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

Sabelkatten

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #135 on: 11 November 2019, 11:54:56 »
Well, getting some power through isn't hard. After all that's what ordinary radio does. I was thinking about a talk I heard about wireless charging of cars. Put an antenna in the floor and another in the bottom of the car, and park right above. Ideal position, range ~1 foot, about 50% efficiency... :P

grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #136 on: 11 November 2019, 12:11:20 »
Well, getting some power through isn't hard. After all that's what ordinary radio does. I was thinking about a talk I heard about wireless charging of cars. Put an antenna in the floor and another in the bottom of the car, and park right above. Ideal position, range ~1 foot, about 50% efficiency... :P
Unless you can build the RF equivalent of a laser, a RASER?  MASER?, 1/r2 is going to eat your lunch VERY quickly.

Like I said, a toss up between "fricken awesome" and "miserable nightmare" of a project.    Full disclosure, I've also had too much experience where upper management insisted on chasing something that would never exist, so the folks doing the work, it was "yessir," and down the rabbit hole.  If this project is being run by people who are willing to say, "this is a bust, move on to something else," then the nightmare scenario is becoming less daunting.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #137 on: 11 November 2019, 16:08:43 »
MASER. Actually older than lasers IIRC. Haven't really read much about them, but I suspect they're not all that efficient in themselves. :(

But, well, the basic idea isn't so farfetched. There's been work done on microwave power transmissions for solar power sats, after all. Power losses wouldn't be a big deal there (simply a cost factor), thought I read that one of the major objections were that dumping loads of power into everything in between the sats and the receiver was potentially a very bad idea.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #138 on: 11 November 2019, 16:47:21 »
  Full disclosure, I've also had too much experience where upper management insisted on chasing something that would never exist, so the folks doing the work, it was "yessir," and down the rabbit hole.

You call that a nightmare scenario. I call that öpportunity, and job security for the next 12 months. And who knows? You might get lucky and have one of those "Hmmmmm, that don't look right?"moments on something altogether different ;)
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Bedwyr

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #139 on: 11 November 2019, 19:19:17 »
FWIW I'm talking about charging small UAS swarms and not, like, an electric reaper or even a Fire Scout. That's still low power but the research is to look for the edges of what could be possible, not product development.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #140 on: 11 November 2019, 19:29:10 »
And who knows when someone is going to get their head Eureka'd with a totally different thing entirely after spending months in said rabbit hole?  Spinoffs are so deliciously unpredictable.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #141 on: 11 November 2019, 19:39:21 »
Even if failed, the research would at least inform how NOT to long range remotely charge an airborne vehicle. Knowing what doesn't work is part of finding out what works.

Sorry, has this been posted before?


truetanker

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #142 on: 11 November 2019, 19:41:33 »
And who knows when someone is going to get their head Eureka'd with a totally different thing entirely after spending months in said rabbit hole?  Spinoffs are so deliciously unpredictable.

You mean like flying freakin' sharks with laser beams on their foreheads, crazy?

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Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #143 on: 11 November 2019, 19:43:09 »
Nice Viggens!  :thumbsup:

As far as the recharging thing... I'm having a hard time imagining where you'd have a drone of the appropriate size deployed in an area where you'd need a recharge of that kind for long enough that it would need a recharge at all...

chanman

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #144 on: 11 November 2019, 19:53:39 »
Nice Viggens!  :thumbsup:

As far as the recharging thing... I'm having a hard time imagining where you'd have a drone of the appropriate size deployed in an area where you'd need a recharge of that kind for long enough that it would need a recharge at all...

What about recharging things that aren't looking to be recharged?  :D

Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #145 on: 11 November 2019, 19:58:45 »
I suppose that could happen, but the odds seem pretty low to me...

Bedwyr

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #146 on: 11 November 2019, 23:31:42 »
Nice Viggens!  :thumbsup:

As far as the recharging thing... I'm having a hard time imagining where you'd have a drone of the appropriate size deployed in an area where you'd need a recharge of that kind for long enough that it would need a recharge at all...

Area denial jamming by a large swarm. Not even kidding, that was one of the use cases we talked over with the company and previous work by the Office of Naval Research. One of their team members I knew. We had talked about the logistics of flying disposable jamming drones made from printing dirt simple PCB wings. Lots of different ideas being passed back and forth.
« Last Edit: 11 November 2019, 23:33:46 by Bedwyr »
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

Bedwyr

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #147 on: 11 November 2019, 23:39:05 »
And I apologize you guys. I'm being a bad mod and belaboring a rabbit trail. Let's steer things back to airplane pictures. Feel free to start another thread if you want to talk more about wireless vehicle charging.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #148 on: 12 November 2019, 00:08:06 »
It's fine, I'm sure nobody was

about the conversation.
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Luciora

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #149 on: 12 November 2019, 00:19:07 »

 

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