Author Topic: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]  (Read 1514 times)

Retry

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Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« on: 01 January 2024, 22:33:13 »
Attached is an in-universe document which has a short overview on the topic of Interstellar Transportation, focusing in particular on the details of command circuits.  This is a companion document to the Whittle Network thread.

Note that this overview is written from the perspective of someone in the Vela Corridor, so factions and people that don't exist in the canonical BT universe may be briefly mentioned.  Despite that, most of the information in this document should still be relevant in terms of command circuits, since the physics in the Vela corridor AU is the same as that in the Battletech universe.

EDIT: Switched to V2 version of document
« Last Edit: 06 January 2024, 21:58:33 by Retry »

DevianID

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #1 on: 02 January 2024, 04:44:36 »
I like it.  Its like building a train schedule, to connect the 2 far away parts of an Empire with wheel and spoke connections. 

Lagrange

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #2 on: 03 January 2024, 09:12:30 »
Yeah, this is great.  I added a further reading pointer from the logistics thread.

A few more minor edits: (apologies, must have missed these in my first pass)
Under Command Circuit timetables: "to at 175 hours" -> "to at least 175 hours".
Under static flow: "primary source nodes" -> "primary source node"
Under linear topology: "from one end of the other" -> "from one end to the other" "a several" -> "several"
I'm not quite following incompatibility of Star with Rolling or Median Reversing flow.  It seems trivial when you have just one link?
Under Asynchronous circuit: "need" -> "needs"
Under Intrasystem Transport Networks: "traffic exit" -> "traffic exits", "and dock with" -> "and docks with", "police forces specialized for" -> "specialized police forces"
Under Jumpers: "attachment and to Jumpship" -> "attachment to Jumpship", "Dropship jumper from a traditional Dropship Jumper" -> "Station jumper from a traditional Dropship Jumper"
Under Coaches: "Coaches is further" -> "Coaches are further"
Under General Coach: "compared to bulk coach" -> "compared to a bulk coach"

AlphaMirage

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #3 on: 03 January 2024, 10:53:08 »
Good stuff Retry. I touch upon similar things in my Free Trader's Guide but it's nice to see a detailed document regarding it. Although 'Command Circuit' does mean something different in universe.

Retry

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #4 on: 03 January 2024, 18:43:32 »
Yeah, this is great.  I added a further reading pointer from the logistics thread.

A few more minor edits: (apologies, must have missed these in my first pass)
-minor edit snip-
I'm not quite following incompatibility of Star with Rolling or Median Reversing flow.  It seems trivial when you have just one link?
-minor edit snip-
Thanks for that, I'll fix those internally.

On star circuits and MRV/Rolling flow, basically the ideal turn order for jumpships in this type of circuit is Periphery->Hub->Periphery, because this order allows all cargo originating at arbitrary location A to their destination B in a single phase.  Reversing and Static flows have this turn order in their phases, but every 2nd phase for Rolling/MRV flows is Hub->Periphery->Hub.  The hub node can get all cargo originating from the periphery nodes, and periphery nodes can get cargo originating from the hub node, but cargo cannot get from origin periphery world A to destination periphery world B this phase, so such cargo has to wait until the next phase.

It's not that it doesn't work exactly, but in this document the interstellar transportation specialists decided that having that for that specific type of network topology, the slight buffering cost is worth being able to fully service all connected worlds every phase instead of every other phase.

Good stuff Retry. I touch upon similar things in my Free Trader's Guide but it's nice to see a detailed document regarding it. Although 'Command Circuit' does mean something different in universe.
Is it?  My understanding of canonical BT command circuits is that it's precisely a method of speeding up dropship traffic by relaying them between charged Jumpships.

Unfortunately I misplaced my copy of Strat Ops a while back so I can't point a page out, but I'm pretty sure a reference to command circuits exists somewhere in there...

AlphaMirage

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #5 on: 03 January 2024, 19:41:08 »
A Command Circuit is that. But are you really keeping a fleet of charged Jumpships inactive to achieve moderately faster trade? Seems wasteful considering the likely goods to be traded

Retry

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #6 on: 03 January 2024, 22:26:32 »
Well, that's the thing.  Jumpships in the circuit don't spend a lot of time uncharged unless the circuit is absurdly large or poorly designed (and in the case of rolling flow circuits, there is basically zero time spent "idle and charged", no matter how large it is.), at least in Whittle's application of the pony express method / command circuits.  Jumpship A jumps in, Jumper dropships offload their cargo to the local depot, attach themselves to Jumpship B which just finished recharging its KF core, Jumpship B jumps out.

Trade actually speeds up a lot after just 1 jump.  The conventional method takes 175 hours to charge per jump without a station, while chaining jumps takes only about 2 hrs (after accounting for unloading some cargo to Zenith depots, Dropship docking time, etc.).  Taking into account the Zenith-Planet transit time (Depends on the star but assumed to be 7 days=168 hrs for ease of calculations) and neglecting the time to unload cargo from the planet, the planet-to-planet trip can be made in 2(Z-P Time) + (J Time)=P2P Time.  J-time for the Command Circuit method is 2 * Jumps, while for the conventional method it's 2 + 175 (Jumps-1) because the Dropship has to wait for the Jumpship's recharge cycle and can't just relay to the next ship. (We're also assuming the Jumpship starts off charged, hence the +2 and Jumps-1 terms that account only for dropship docking time).

The formulas are then the following:
336+J-Time=P2P Time
338+175(Jumps-1)=P2P Conventional
336+2*Jumps=P2P Circuit

Jumps   P2PCONV      P2PCIRC     %
1                 338                  338         100
2                 513                  340         151
3                 688                  342         201
4                 863                  344         251
5                 1038                  346         300
6                 1213                  348         349

The conventional method and the Circuit method are the same for the first jump since we're assuming both Jumpships start charged, but the Circuit method is notably (50%) faster by the 2nd jump.  By the 3rd jump the circuit method is twice as fast, and by the 5th jump it's three times as fast.  It doesn't take very many jumps at all to dramatically speed up the transport network.

DevianID

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #7 on: 04 January 2024, 06:03:38 »
You can also stagger the jumpships, just to make delays less of an issue.  AKA with a 5 jump circuit, each point on the jump is allotted 20 hours in station.  So A jumps to ->B, where be is 80% charged, C is 60%, ect ect.  This way, if A is late, it doesnt impact the delivery of B as A needed to wait 20 hours anyway for B to charge from 80 to 100.  So the time to make a circle remains the same as part of a flow, but the instant speed goes down while the delay buffer goes up.  So unlike the 'send it as fast as possible' method, where at the end of the 5 jump chain every jumpship is out of juice for 175 hours, with the staggered jump, at the end of the 5th jump chain 180 hours later the first jumpship is charged up again, even if someone took an extra 3 hours transferring cargo at point C, they had 20 hours built in to make the transfer so no failed rolls will impact transit time.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #8 on: 04 January 2024, 07:30:07 »
You also have cargo loading and unloading times. Even the best transfer rate [containerized cargo, large specialized platform (such as a cargo station)} is 72 tons/hr in microgravity by StratOps. Undocking from the Jumpship (15-30 min), travel to the station (call it an hour as jumping has error even if done correctly), docking with the station (another 15-30 min), unloading, then reloading and redocking will take a while. Emptying a heavy dropship (5000kt) thus takes a while (~42 hours) and if you refill it that adds even more time. Optimally the end location has economical and smaller 'lighters' (or as your refer to them 'Shuttles') of its own to do the more time consuming trip 'up and down the well' so larger ships ('Jumpers' and 'Coaches') can spread out a jumpship's collar fee over more cargo and keep them moving.

That's why I normally ran my AU's trade network on the reliable and predictable reactor recharge method (taking about 5 days) with cargo transfer (and refueling) stations rather than recharge ones or solar sails. That said it was closer to canon and doable using canonical numbers with a little margin and assuming very self-sufficient planetary systems with more space infrastructure than is normally touched upon but not possessing large jump-capable space stations. The Vela Corridor might have all the jumpships and capital necessary to maintain their very aggressive and timely freight delivery service and I love it as an Air Freight version of the normally 'Ship Freight' option. Also your topologies make a lot of sense and are much clearer than my own more intentionally nebulous 'lines' and 'circuits.'

Lagrange

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #9 on: 04 January 2024, 09:05:57 »
You also have cargo loading and unloading times. Even the best transfer rate [containerized cargo, large specialized platform (such as a cargo station)} is 72 tons/hr in microgravity by StratOps. Undocking from the Jumpship (15-30 min), travel to the station (call it an hour as jumping has error even if done correctly), docking with the station (another 15-30 min), unloading, then reloading and redocking will take a while. Emptying a heavy dropship (5000kt) thus takes a while (~42 hours) and if you refill it that adds even more time. Optimally the end location has economical and smaller 'lighters' (or as your refer to them 'Shuttles') of its own to do the more time consuming trip 'up and down the well' so larger ships ('Jumpers' and 'Coaches') can spread out a jumpship's collar fee over more cargo and keep them moving.
It's possible to shift cargo much faster.  The Cavern dropship can offload+onload 66K tons of containerized cargo in <2 hours.  In particular, there are several ways to enhance movement in zero-g detailed here.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #10 on: 04 January 2024, 10:13:05 »
Thank you for the very interesting mention Lagrange.

I was also mistaken it is possible to transfer 240 ton/hr*door with a dedicated heavy cargo platform in microgravity. I cited the wrong number as that of a PowerLoader Exoskeleton (from a different sheet than my main one). Since it was also per door you could transfer tons of cargo faster if necessary (<10 hours for all but the largest carriers). That said it does seem like even in the rosiest of battletech universes such rates would seem overkill as interstellar trade should be more dictated by jumpship availability (low) and collar economy (expensive cost spread out as much as possible) rather than transfer time (much less than recharge). Heck at that rate microgravity transfer matches modern container turnarounds (although modern containers are typically heavier than 10 tons) on most ships (4-6 cargo doors).

Most goods would either be in their most processed/value-added state or their rawest with no or fewer intermediate transfers (except maybe refined petrochemicals). There's probably not as much remanufacturing going on in interstellar trade and it probably moves mostly higher end goods (military equipment, luxury foods, or well-crafted consumer goods beyond the plebs) or raw materials (ingots, wires, or sheets of metal not ore).

Lagrange

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #11 on: 04 January 2024, 18:17:13 »
Since it was also per door you could transfer tons of cargo faster if necessary (<10 hours for all but the largest carriers).
Yeah, the trick here is to load smallcraft instead, and then use launch/recovery rules for radically faster egress/ingress.

W.r.t. jumpship rarity, there's a critical value at a jumpship per system.  If you are above the critical value, circuits are dead obvious.  If you are below, then you might create circuits for particularly important routes, but every other system consequently shares even fewer jumpship visits.   My impression is that the VC AU is well above the threshold.  The logistics thread I did is operating around the border of that threshold.  And if you fall into the "we get a jumpship once a year" kind of category, then you are well below the threshold.

Retry

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #12 on: 05 January 2024, 00:07:56 »
If you're critically low on Jumpships, the Ring topology will likely be your best bet.  It features the minimum possible Jumpships/Planet required, just 1 per node.  Even if you don't have enough Jumpships to connect every single planet in a massive ring, you can still benefit by connecting the big population centers / local capitals in a fairly large ring and operate in a Hybrid Interstellar Transit Method, you can still get significant benefits: The local capitals are all just a couple of days away from each other (not counting Zenith-Planet transit time), and each periphery planet is in a virtual sense only as far away from any of the local capitals as their distance from the circuit.

Yeah, the Vela Corridor (as in the region; the Inner Sphere and Clans are about where they are canonically) is fairly well developed.  Most regions in the corridor are quite high both in GDP per-capita and per-planet, so almost all of them can economically justify at least 1 small Jumpship in a network by the 3070s (the time period when this document is written in-universe).  It helps that they're far enough away from the Inner Sphere that Comstar can't influence (sabotage) the region, so unlike the Inner Sphere with their Comstar conspiracies and 4 Succession Wars, or the Clans with their Pentagon Civil War and their, shall we say unique approach to efficiency, the corridor had enough breathing room to really develop their infrastructure.

The document is written in the perspective in the 3070s though.  The first circuits in the Vela Corridor were set up in 2950 in a state called the Republic of Crossroad.  It started small, a simple Star in the core worlds, but expanded outwards into a tiered star until it eventually encompassed all Crossroadian planets and some of their Neighbours.

At first not all planets in the boonies were actually economical in the command circuit, so those remote connections were effectively subsidized.  The Republic of Crossroad still connected them for three reasons:
1. Connection to the command circuit network reduces the cost (money and time) of that planet participating in the interstellar economy, inducing demand for both imports and exports, eventually making the connection economical in the long term.
2. Permanent command circuits (and HPGs) are useful for nation building.  This is an important consideration for them due to their history.
3. The Periphery planets vote, so not connecting them/ disconnecting them from the network for economic reasons is a good way to lose the next election.

Then the tiered star was eventually replaced by a couple Constellation circuits but that's a bit of a tangent.

Lagrange

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #13 on: 05 January 2024, 09:46:57 »
It's maybe worth considering relative cost as well.  A warship has a minimum cost of ~4B.  The logistics thread prices out a 5 stop ring (~600M/stop with infrastructure) + rider (~1B) for a similar cost.    Given this, any nation capable of supporting a warship fleet and even some that may not are plausibly capable of supporting commercial jump circuits.  Even for warfare purposes, it's plausibly better to build jump circuits before warships since it allows you to move Thera-scale forces across a star nation on a 1 week timescale. 

Using the "has a warship fleet" metric suggests many eras in the BT universe are capable of supporting commercial jump circuits.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #14 on: 05 January 2024, 19:15:28 »
I agree and think that probably was a big selling point for the Star League. It does kinda break down on the volume though since most stuff can probably be sourced on your planet or in the same solar system.

Interstellar trade just doesn't seem that require high volume without external control (Star League specializing worlds via Imperial edict). I suppose it could be mostly self supporting while providing fast access of the Star League Fleet to the frontier.

Either way I love conversing about the nonsense of FASA-nomics

DevianID

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #15 on: 05 January 2024, 19:51:57 »
If you use the charge/x, where x equals the number of nodes, you get a dropship making a circuit every ~180 hours no matter where it starts.  Its like a bus network.  Its really efficient at encouraging planetary connectedness, just for data alone.  Hpgs dont have nearly the data density of physically transporting stuff, so just connecting a star network via mail is a major boon.  It would be subsidized like the post office.  It lets you film shows on one planet and have it distributed to all other planets in a week.

Also, if there is a problem somewhere, in 180ish hours help from every planet on the node will arrive even without an HPG network.

Retry

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #16 on: 06 January 2024, 22:44:13 »
Improving planetary interconnectedness is indeed a huge boon, economically and militarily.
I agree and think that probably was a big selling point for the Star League. It does kinda break down on the volume though since most stuff can probably be sourced on your planet or in the same solar system.

Interstellar trade just doesn't seem that require high volume without external control (Star League specializing worlds via Imperial edict). I suppose it could be mostly self supporting while providing fast access of the Star League Fleet to the frontier.

Either way I love conversing about the nonsense of FASA-nomics
One of my assumptions is that establishing a permanent command circuit will induce demand due to its speed and consistency advantages over conventional transit methods.  Basically, the regular Jumpship traffic from the circuit makes interstellar transport more useful in terms of value, which makes sellers more likely to produce items that can be usably exported, and buyers more likely to purchase the imports, than they would in the conventional LHIT system.  This increases demand for both imports and exports, which makes it easier for Dropships to fill their cargo bays and thus increases interstellar transit efficiency while reducing cost.  The interstellar transit cost reduction in turn makes more goods from more planets viable to export/import, which makes it even easier for Dropships to fill their cargo bays, and so allows bigger Jumpships and bigger dropships to be used along the route, and allows the route to be expanded to more planets, which further reduces cost through economies of scale and value through the network effect, which increases demand for imports and exports...

The V2 version of the document has been attached to the OP.  Version changes includes:
-Fixed some grammatical errors (thanks Lagrange)
-Short overview on transport Jumpships and auxiliary Jumpships and their roles in command circuits
-More detailed overview on specific types of cargo
  >Passengers
  >Containerized Freight
  >Bulk Freight
  >Refrigerated Freight / Reefers
  >Project Cargo
  >Reserve Hardpoints and Dock-On/Dock-Off (DODO) service
-Added a section for "Swift Jumpers", a rare Jumper Dropship variant optimized to minimize Jumpship dwell time

Lagrange

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #17 on: 06 January 2024, 23:56:27 »
One minor edit: "be rapidly be" -> "be rapidly"

There's a cargo special case around ASF/smallcraft: they can load/unload from a cargo dropship relatively rapidly compared to other forms of noncontainerized cargo.  If there is a spare smallcraft bay, it's actually faster to unload than containerized cargo.  And if you can't, ASF/smallcraft benefit from an x2 tonnage movement multiplier---not as good as the containerized x5, but still improved.  The demothball time for an ASF/Smallcraft can be as low as 2 minutes with appropriate support, and then an ASF/smallcraft can launch directly rather than relying on further transport.


DevianID

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #18 on: 07 January 2024, 01:22:37 »
So if the network is going to be going for a while, amd assuming you have the jump ship capacity, eventually you would see a privatization of small craft.  You'd have the state owned jumpships, lets use an invader base.  Then you'd have the state owned mail ship.  This small craft would bounce around from jumpship to jump ship, carrying the massive data packets that connect all the different planets internets.  The invaders other small craft bay would be the utility one, for crew transfers, ECT.

Dropship docking port 1 would likely be a small craft carrier.  This ferry would be Like 40-50k tons, and just carry as many small craft as possible.  It would be what all the private citizens attach to.  If you were a han solo or firefly serenity type, you'd travel the stars by attaching your small craft to docking bay one's dropship.  That should handle most priority cargo and passenger services.

Docking bay 2-3 would then be open for heavy transport needs.

Edit: fooling around, a 40k ton dropship can get 150 small craft.  With a 1/2 space only speed, 4k tons of fuel to top off the small craft as needed, and 127 life pods just in case, as the small craft probably don't carry their own.  That should be enough small craft to ensure a vibrant cast of private contract transport... From fed ex, DHL, Delta airlines, private yachts. 
« Last Edit: 07 January 2024, 02:11:29 by DevianID »

Retry

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #19 on: 07 January 2024, 15:34:19 »
One minor edit: "be rapidly be" -> "be rapidly"

There's a cargo special case around ASF/smallcraft: they can load/unload from a cargo dropship relatively rapidly compared to other forms of noncontainerized cargo.  If there is a spare smallcraft bay, it's actually faster to unload than containerized cargo.  And if you can't, ASF/smallcraft benefit from an x2 tonnage movement multiplier---not as good as the containerized x5, but still improved.  The demothball time for an ASF/Smallcraft can be as low as 2 minutes with appropriate support, and then an ASF/smallcraft can launch directly rather than relying on further transport.
I think you mean loading into small craft bays is faster than using the cargo bay doors to unload into e.g. a space station?  Or is loading noncontainerized cargo into small craft actually faster than loading containerized cargo into small craft for some reason?
So if the network is going to be going for a while, amd assuming you have the jump ship capacity, eventually you would see a privatization of small craft.  You'd have the state owned jumpships, lets use an invader base.  Then you'd have the state owned mail ship.  This small craft would bounce around from jumpship to jump ship, carrying the massive data packets that connect all the different planets internets.  The invaders other small craft bay would be the utility one, for crew transfers, ECT.

Dropship docking port 1 would likely be a small craft carrier.  This ferry would be Like 40-50k tons, and just carry as many small craft as possible.  It would be what all the private citizens attach to.  If you were a han solo or firefly serenity type, you'd travel the stars by attaching your small craft to docking bay one's dropship.  That should handle most priority cargo and passenger services.

Docking bay 2-3 would then be open for heavy transport needs.

Edit: fooling around, a 40k ton dropship can get 150 small craft.  With a 1/2 space only speed, 4k tons of fuel to top off the small craft as needed, and 127 life pods just in case, as the small craft probably don't carry their own.  That should be enough small craft to ensure a vibrant cast of private contract transport... From fed ex, DHL, Delta airlines, private yachts. 
I'd have figured most of the command circuit infrastructure would be publicly owned, simply due to the capital cost of Jumpships and other stuff.  Maybe privately operated though, depending on the preferences of the people in power.  The most efficient way to transport cargo within a Zenith jump point area is something like Lagrange's Spacebuses, but they're so specialized they can't do much anything else.  They make sense if they never have to do anything else, but I'd think most private buyers would be looking for something more generally useful, something able to make planetary trips and potentially even planet-zenith transits.

Private small craft would probably become more common, I think they'd mainly be restricted to private companies and rich individuals though, since even "cheap" small craft still costs millions of C-bills. 

DevianID

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #20 on: 07 January 2024, 21:19:28 »
Yeah 'private' small craft is more like 'private sector' I guess.  But while small craft are not fuel efficient, the setting relies on having abundant hydrogen fuel, so refueling in space via stations shouldnt be bad.

Something like a mule, with its 2.7k ton bays x3 bays, in a well developed space setting, would be a heavy lift vehicle and thats about it.  You dont want a 163 million vessel with a 3/5 engine for space operations.  The 631 million behemoth is also a bit of a space cow, as it is paying dropship price multipliers for being able to enter the atmosphere, but it cant do that.  Even so, it has 9x the cargo for 3.8x the cost.  A 1/2 drive would put that cost down to 435 million--so slower is just way more efficient in btech.  A 1/2 dropship is just the way to go for jumping between systems if you can build a space economy via the private sector, with different vessels like the mule doing just the planetary boost/lift portion.  Honestly an aerodyne is probably even more preferable to a mule for dedicated heavy lift purpose, just cause it can land on an airstrip instead of a star port.

So like the oceans today, I feel like the truly 'big' cargo haulers would be slow specialized vessels that require shuttle services as they are too big to land at a starport.  Thus, as we continue the logical trend, a 2 million ton space station with 1.9 million tons of cargo, is only 265 million cbills.  It travels .1 g, but thats plenty for the job.  This is what hauls the big cargo around in system, using a mule as the heavy lift vehicle to load and unload it at a planet, and small craft to service it.  A 2 million ton tanker holds a lot of hydrogen, and is affordable to build on a private scale, as it makes its runs from the belt to load up on hydrogen or ice or whatever, to the zenith, to the planet, back to the belt.

Lagrange

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #21 on: 07 January 2024, 23:24:29 »
For retry: you might want to link to the relevant designs wherever you mention them in the document.

I think you mean loading into small craft bays is faster than using the cargo bay doors to unload into e.g. a space station? 
Definitely correct, but not what I meant.  What I meant is that loading a noncontainerized ASF into a smallcraft bay is surprisingly efficient.

Dropship docking port 1 would likely be a small craft carrier.  This ferry would be Like 40-50k tons, and just carry as many small craft as possible.  It would be what all the private citizens attach to.  If you were a han solo or firefly serenity type, you'd travel the stars by attaching your small craft to docking bay one's dropship.  That should handle most priority cargo and passenger services.
...
Edit: fooling around, a 40k ton dropship can get 150 small craft.  With a 1/2 space only speed, 4k tons of fuel to top off the small craft as needed, and 127 life pods just in case, as the small craft probably don't carry their own.  That should be enough small craft to ensure a vibrant cast of private contract transport... From fed ex, DHL, Delta airlines, private yachts.
There are some difficulties with a pure smallcraft carrier. 
  • Every smallcraft bay increases the price of the carrier by about 1.25M so a big carrier actually ends up pretty expensive.
  • The smallcraft themselves are about 5M, even for a cheap design.
  • The smallcraft shell eats up 20% (or more) of the transport tonnage.
You can actually get by with 36 smallcraft bays since the recovery time (5 minutes) is similar to the offload time (<2 minutes with 4 squads of 5 exoskeletons working with containerized cargo) plus the load time (<2 minutes) plus the launch time (1 minute).   So 18 bays can be in recovery for 9 doors while the other 18 are unloading, loading, and launching.  At 160 cargo tons/smallcraft, this leads to 2880 containerized tons transloaded every 5 minutes, or about 66K tons in 115 minutes.  So, the ideal jumper/circuit rider has 66+K tons of cargo space and 36+ smallcraft bays.  You could satisfy this with a 100K ton rider having (say) 420 smallcraft bays +5K tons cargo (cost =878M + 5M*420=2978M, or with 36 smallcraft bays + 82K tons cargo (cost = 394M+5M*36 = 574M).  For the Cavern, I ended up choosing 72 smallcraft bays + 75K tons cargo (439M).  This is an extra 45M in minimum cost, but you need not pay for extra small craft unless desired since there is the magic 66K tons of cargo.  What you get for the extra 45M is the ability to support some fraction (variable, depending on type) of non-containerized cargo without having any impact on maximum transload (which is bottlenecked by the maximum number of total recoveries in a 2 hour time frame).

So with the right design you can tolerate some noncontainerized cargo without any degradation in transport efficiency by having/using extra smallcraft bays.
Honestly an aerodyne is probably even more preferable to a mule for dedicated heavy lift purpose, just cause it can land on an airstrip instead of a star port.
Aerodyne smallcraft associated with a planet seem superior for most purposes to me.  They are much cheaper (7M) than a dropship, deliver more directly to destinations, and can be heavily reused in-between planetary visits by a cargo hauler, and eliminate a "load from cargo hauler to dropper" step from the process.  The only downside is a max capacity limited to ~120 tons, which is good enough for most items.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #22 on: 08 January 2024, 07:59:36 »
Improving planetary interconnectedness is indeed a huge boon, economically and militarily. One of my assumptions is that establishing a permanent command circuit will induce demand due to its speed and consistency advantages over conventional transit methods.  Basically, the regular Jumpship traffic from the circuit makes interstellar transport more useful in terms of value, which makes sellers more likely to produce items that can be usably exported, and buyers more likely to purchase the imports, than they would in the conventional LHIT system.  This increases demand for both imports and exports, which makes it easier for Dropships to fill their cargo bays and thus increases interstellar transit efficiency while reducing cost.  The interstellar transit cost reduction in turn makes more goods from more planets viable to export/import, which makes it even easier for Dropships to fill their cargo bays, and so allows bigger Jumpships and bigger dropships to be used along the route, and allows the route to be expanded to more planets, which further reduces cost through economies of scale and value through the network effect, which increases demand for imports and exports...
- snip -

The thing is though that even if the interstellar part is fast, the interplanetary part is slow. You have to wait two or more (possibly many more) weeks plus having to pay shipping as even efficient interstellar shipping still adds expense on goods that you could probably make on world or in system. Most bulk raw materials can be sourced in-system as Ices and Ores via Dropship Miners and transported inter-planetary by Space Station or super-large Dropship Cyclers if cost-efficiency but not transit time is a priority.

Labor cost arbitrage is not something I could see either like the real world. That would be a planetary or system norm meaning you could find lower labor 'locally.' If not wouldn't it be more cost-effective to build more efficient factories to satisfy local customer demand or import more people to increase demand than create a super-fast interstellar transport network?

I think we also shouldn't discount HPG bandwidth capacities. There is nothing in the fiction that limits them other than COMSTAR's wish for it to remain expensive enough that the c-bill has value. It is entirely possible that you could build two or more HPGs on world to maintain super-liminal communication for time-sensitive data within 50LY while providing small craft and jumpship pairing to speed along economically valuable but not time-sensitive or strategic sensitive data.


Again love your work Retry. The production of this has given me lots of stuff to think about in my own fiction. I just love continuing the discussion.

Lagrange

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #23 on: 08 January 2024, 11:51:30 »
The thing is though that even if the interstellar part is fast, the interplanetary part is slow. You have to wait two or more (possibly many more) weeks plus having to pay shipping as even efficient interstellar shipping still adds expense on goods that you could probably make on world or in system. Most bulk raw materials can be sourced in-system as Ices and Ores via Dropship Miners and transported inter-planetary by Space Station or super-large Dropship Cyclers if cost-efficiency but not transit time is a priority.
I expect there's something to local production, but the analogy to maritime shipping makes me think it would be heavily used.

Poking around a bit, it looks like about 10 gigatons is shipped annually with typical trip durations around a month.   10 gigatons is something like 200 megatons/week which even in the best case corresponds to about 3K hardpoint jumps with giant cargo loads.  That's quite a bit of demand even with the added cost of shipping. 

We can also estimate the cost of shipping as (say) 10% of the capital cost per year.  The capital cost is around 1G c-bills/stop, so that suggests 100M c-bills/year, or 2M c-bills/week, or 30 c-bills per ton jumped.  That's an acceptable price compared to the cost per ton of most items.  It is however plausibly an order of magnitude greater than maritime shipping ($25 for a 10K mile journey, apparently).

Amongst variations between planetary systems,
  • I would expect that many systems with low (<100M) populations are incapable of supporting the diversity of production in a 'core' world with 1B+ population.
  • Intellectual property is probably a concern which suggests centralization of production.
  • Some star systems are light on heavy elements since their mother novas lacked iron+ elements.

Retry

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #24 on: 08 January 2024, 15:57:21 »
The thing is though that even if the interstellar part is fast, the interplanetary part is slow. You have to wait two or more (possibly many more) weeks plus having to pay shipping as even efficient interstellar shipping still adds expense on goods that you could probably make on world or in system. Most bulk raw materials can be sourced in-system as Ices and Ores via Dropship Miners and transported inter-planetary by Space Station or super-large Dropship Cyclers if cost-efficiency but not transit time is a priority.
The zenith-planet part of the journey is not fast, but a couple of weeks for an overall trip is comparable to sea freight, whereas it takes many months for conventional Jumpship shipping.  To put it in perspective, transporting freight across the Pacific via cargo ship typically takes 2-4 weeks.

Mass space mining seems to be... conspicuously absent?  At least in the canonical Battletech setting.  It's not quite zero, but there's far less of a focus in this setting than other sci-fi settings.  If I were seeking an in-universe explanation, I'd suggest it's a result of both planetary labor being fairly inexpensive compared to space habitat labor and the absurd efficiency of Battletech fusion rockets that dramatically reduce the disadvantage planets have of having to overcome their gravity well to ship material out.
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Labor cost arbitrage is not something I could see either like the real world. That would be a planetary or system norm meaning you could find lower labor 'locally.' If not wouldn't it be more cost-effective to build more efficient factories to satisfy local customer demand or import more people to increase demand than create a super-fast interstellar transport network?
While I wouldn't expect labor costs to be uniform on a planet, I do fully believe that "rich" worlds like New Avalon would have a much higher labor price floor than somewhere like Bassfield.

As for the question of whether it's more cost-effective to just build a factory rather than to create a command circuit, I think it's a false dichotomy.  Interstellar nations have to have Jumpships to ferry passengers and goods around their owned systems in the first place: Otherwise you don't have an Interstellar nation, you have a region of some de-facto independent autarkic worlds and some formerly inhabited dead worlds.  The question is then how you can most efficiently use these Jumpships.  I maintain that when the Jumpship-to-Planet ratio is high, big and elaborate command circuits are most efficient, while when the Jumpship-to-Planet ratio is low, a simple and lean ring circuit to connect the most important nodes with other Jumpships operating in the traditional way (basically the Hybrid Interstellar Transport method) is more efficient than simply having all Jumpships operate in the traditional way.

If we accept this, then the question becomes "is building more efficient commodity-producing factories on-planet to satisfy local demand than importing the commodities from the interstellar transport network?"  And it can be.  But here's the neat thing: Command circuits help enable that too!

Assuming no command circuits and quasi-autarky (Jumpships traffic exists but is rare and inconsistent), if they need to build a factory to produce commodity X (or potentially upgrade an existing low-tech factory to higher tech to more efficiently produce commodity X), then the planet has to basically start from scratch.  They have to do the basic research on their needs and develop the basic design of the product, they have to make the tools, they have to make the tools that make the tools, they have to set up any necessary supporting logistics infrastructure for the commodity, the workforce has to run through the various skills to use and maintain the commodities.

However, if you have good interstellar connections with the rest of your faction, there's almost certainly another planet somewhere that already has gone through and solved these problems.  They likely already have the basic R&D done, so your planet need only apply the existing research to their own situation, perhaps with some small changes to integrate it into whatever special environment they happen to be in.  They've built the tools to make the tools and they have experience of what is needed in terms of support infrastructure, so your planet could simply import the tools, hire their experts to teach your technicians, and with their expertise dodge any traps and growing pains that the other planet had to go through.

To make this argument more tangible, let's do an example.

Let's say the government of planet A has decided it is important that they build Agromechs.  Planet A has some lower-tech industry: They can produce ICEs and fuel cells compatible with Agromechs and they have the metallurgy to produce the part of the mech's skeleton and commercial armoring, and they could theoretically assemble an Agromech if they had all the parts, but they can't currently build gyros, and their plastic-producing industries is not advanced enough to produce the advanced myomers Mechs need to move.

If planet A is quasi-autarkic (either by choice or by circumstance), they would have to figure out how to produce the gyros and myomers themselves, which could take years if not decades of toiling before they even get their Agromech factories spitting out useful machines.

However, if they have good connections to the interstellar transport network and they're willing to use them, planet B has produced Agromechs themselves for about a century.  They can produce gyros and have the know-how to create the advanced myomer fibres.  With planet B's assistance, enabled with the help of the command circuit, planet A can begin assembling Agromechs relatively rapidly, producing the components planet A can build and assembling them with components imported they can't build yet from planet B, while using planet B's knowledge on myomer and gyros to accelerate the development of planet A's subcomponent factories to eventually be able to produce their own Agromechs themselves.

Think of it as a technology transfer, but within a state's own borders instead of between two states.  While HPG communication can also play a major role in this, transmitting bits cannot always replace having the physical item or person in front of you.

(My apologies, this became WAY longer than I intended)

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I think we also shouldn't discount HPG bandwidth capacities. There is nothing in the fiction that limits them other than COMSTAR's wish for it to remain expensive enough that the c-bill has value. It is entirely possible that you could build two or more HPGs on world to maintain super-liminal communication for time-sensitive data within 50LY while providing small craft and jumpship pairing to speed along economically valuable but not time-sensitive or strategic sensitive data.
I agree.  Evidently some of the fiction has Clan HPG-equipped jumpships transmitting information between the Inner Sphere occupation area and the Clan Homeworlds in near-real time to elect Khans, so either Comstar could have developed the ability to do similar, or they did have it and chose not to use it.

Some of Comstar's main goals during the succession wars were to prevent the Inner Sphere from rebuilding and to suppress their scientific research.  I wouldn't be surprised that with Comstar's monopoly they intentionally throttled their HPGs so the Great Houses could barely get by, enough to live but not enough to truly rebuild and accelerate their research.  Maybe with the occasional "bug" conveniently corrupting certain messages important to the Inner Sphere states as well.

This is a bit of a plot point in the Vela Corridor AU setting.  Without a Comstar to sabotage everything, the Republic of Crossroad was able to develop their FTL communication infrastructure to a great extent and caused major socioeconomic changes in the region, a period called the "HPG Revolution" in the 2850s.  Data can travel from one end of Crossroad to another near instantly, and there's now what's basically a more advanced version of the Clan Chatterweb called the Velanet.  (They also developed what's basically a mature version of Black Box technology, but that's less relevant here.)
 
HPG capabilities aside, a Jump Circuit does have the advantage that it provides a ready-made method to control damage in the event that the HPG grid goes down.  That ability would have been very useful at certain periods of time (Blakist Whiteout, Gray Monday).
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Again love your work Retry. The production of this has given me lots of stuff to think about in my own fiction. I just love continuing the discussion.
Thank you!

AlphaMirage

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #25 on: 09 January 2024, 06:51:19 »
On the middle point there,

Autarky is a feature of the Feudal political system, not just the result of a dirth of Jumpships. The Lord of a region is often the one with the high-tech factories that make and/or Jumpships that distribute high-value/tech goods (thus things worth transporting interstellar) amongst their vassals. The Star League did this with the Great Houses, Major Houses do it to Minor Houses, and Minor Houses do it to the people.

Those in disfavor or without much to offer in exchange for these 'gifts' are either sustained by the 'benevolence' of their Lord; left to the mercy of COMSTAR's capricious and predatory nature, which might sustain them enough to keep them from ruin; or subject instead to the vagaries of shady Free Traders plying the stars (Outback, Draconis Rift, South-West Territories, etc...) This likely breeds all kinds of 'little wars' between the Overlord and quarrelsome Nobles or disloyal vassals keeping mercenaries employed and spawning a steady stream of pirates or brigands to fill the Periphery.

Mercantilism was very much the norm in the real Feudal/Imperial era and thus would likely be the same for Battletech. Instead of fancy Agrimechs from off-world you'd build your own tractors, in factories owned by the local Lord, for their people to work the Lord's land, powered by whatever local fuel was available, and sell any resultant product that wasn't part of your Liege-Lord's dues rather than see money leave the system unnecessarily. Even if you had a reasonably complex factory you could still import the finished goods you can't make if you have something else to sell but would want to create as much as possible locally. That's IMO why we don't see much advancement until the Helm Core, there wasn't enough money or time to sustain its development.

Post 3039 advanced technology, military equipment, and space travel became more accessible and the Clans/St Ives Conflict/FedCom Civil War/Jihad shook up every Feudal Overlord and Religious Authority forcing them to loosen their grasp on power. This in turn spawned the Dark Age where the whole order broke down and everything kinda fell apart.

The Great Houses are Empires because of the combined defense (or subjugation) capability of their Imperial Militaries and ownership of the remaining industrial infrastructure. Jumpships are part of that system; a favor to be exchanged for loyalty, and means of control, for all the powers in the Battletech Universe. Having to many of them and the resultant free trade/passage really messes with the feudal order.

DevianID

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #26 on: 11 January 2024, 00:25:30 »
Yeah the advantage of building a space empire is the monopoly it gives you as the sole focal point of control--you dont have to worry about competition.  Holding the leash on an entire planet while also bound to that planet is tricky--if the planet is inhabitable and people dont like a leaders rules, they can just pick up and move elsewhere.  Im assuming the planets are mostly 1 trillion or less people... not massively populated, just populated in the best/more desirable areas, but still plenty of land for people to move to and just disappear off the grid.

The space empire is out of reach though in a way the surface of a planet isnt.  Assuming you arnt totally an evil empire, creating and caring for a space service creates the need that keeps you in power.  Communications is a big one, satellites and media distribution are big deals, and while they don't delve into HPG economics its very hard for me to believe it has bandwidth at scale.  Even on earth today, a delivery truck has massively more data transportation then high speed internet, despite taking 2-3 days to drive the truck you still get WAY more data over time with physical delivery.  And I imagine the space future to have unimaginable data costs, which the HPG, even if sending a message was instant, cant nearly keep up with.  Like, a tri-vid show presumably is several times more data then a 4k tv show, and I dont think there is many descriptions of an HPG transmitting 30+ minute shows.  Its usually text being delivered via HPG.

As for what you are physically transporting... well germanium and other complex resources (the unobtaniums of btech lore) are the big ones for bulk transport between stars.  Since space travel is so cheap, its actually worth it to maintain a mining settlement a few jumps over if the planet has germanium thats, say, 10% easier to mine then on a developed world.  The space mining is mostly to feed in system needs.  So you'd have in space tankers and space refineries to supply the space stations, simply because you can transport 1.9 million tons at once, at a low cost, versus making 19 thousand small craft trips from a planet 100 tons at a time.  Sure it takes months for the .1g big bulk space transport to haul it self from place to place, but compared to the man hours of 19 thousand small craft trips you save on labor in the long run, as long as you have the time to invest in space... which they do.

After that, you transport very specialized things.  We see this now.  Good quality efficient engines wont be something that every factory can produce, and its just easier to sent a 10,000 ton load of 1,000 various fusion engines to a planet instead of building a second factory that does the same thing.  I imagine its like how most microprocessors are made in one place now, just because of how specialized they are.  If Vela 5 has the skill and factories' to churn out tri-vid rendering processors, its just cheaper to ship hundreds of thousands of Vela 5 processors to every other planet in the ring instead of building up the very specialized infrastructure a second time--same as with ocean shipping on earth right?

Retry

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #27 on: 11 January 2024, 21:34:04 »
On the middle point there,

Autarky is a feature of the Feudal political system, not just the result of a dirth of Jumpships. The Lord of a region is often the one with the high-tech factories that make and/or Jumpships that distribute high-value/tech goods (thus things worth transporting interstellar) amongst their vassals. The Star League did this with the Great Houses, Major Houses do it to Minor Houses, and Minor Houses do it to the people.

Those in disfavor or without much to offer in exchange for these 'gifts' are either sustained by the 'benevolence' of their Lord; left to the mercy of COMSTAR's capricious and predatory nature, which might sustain them enough to keep them from ruin; or subject instead to the vagaries of shady Free Traders plying the stars (Outback, Draconis Rift, South-West Territories, etc...) This likely breeds all kinds of 'little wars' between the Overlord and quarrelsome Nobles or disloyal vassals keeping mercenaries employed and spawning a steady stream of pirates or brigands to fill the Periphery.

Mercantilism was very much the norm in the real Feudal/Imperial era and thus would likely be the same for Battletech. Instead of fancy Agrimechs from off-world you'd build your own tractors, in factories owned by the local Lord, for their people to work the Lord's land, powered by whatever local fuel was available, and sell any resultant product that wasn't part of your Liege-Lord's dues rather than see money leave the system unnecessarily. Even if you had a reasonably complex factory you could still import the finished goods you can't make if you have something else to sell but would want to create as much as possible locally. That's IMO why we don't see much advancement until the Helm Core, there wasn't enough money or time to sustain its development.

Post 3039 advanced technology, military equipment, and space travel became more accessible and the Clans/St Ives Conflict/FedCom Civil War/Jihad shook up every Feudal Overlord and Religious Authority forcing them to loosen their grasp on power. This in turn spawned the Dark Age where the whole order broke down and everything kinda fell apart.

The Great Houses are Empires because of the combined defense (or subjugation) capability of their Imperial Militaries and ownership of the remaining industrial infrastructure. Jumpships are part of that system; a favor to be exchanged for loyalty, and means of control, for all the powers in the Battletech Universe. Having to many of them and the resultant free trade/passage really messes with the feudal order.
That's a novel approach, considering the command circuit's effect on Battletech's neofeudalistic system.  I've primarily concentrated on purely economic aspects, but if you're concerned that improving your faction's Jumpship network could weaken your own hold on power that would be a reason to not do so.

It creates a bit of a dilemma for the neofeudalistic factions in the setting.  Invest in Jumpship infrastructure and you'll be better positioned against your external rivals in the future, but your faction's internal politics, society, and culture will change and you could lose your leadership status.  Or retain the status quo and maintain the neoofeudalism system and thus comfortably protect yourself from internal threats, but you'll be more vulnerable to near-peer rivals.

I think the Clans would not be as vulnerable to regime change from investing in a well-developed Jumpship network in nearly the same way as the Great Houses would be, so they'd be more likely to implement one (assuming they'd ever think of it at all).  They have more of a unique economic model, a sort of top-down martial socialism.  At worst the merchant caste would become a bit more prominent; I can't see them challenging the Warrior caste for the "driver's seat" in any reasonable way.

Meanwhile, for the two (remaining) major powers in the Vela Corridor region, the calculus is reversed.  The Republic of Crossroad is a presidential republic, and the Mechani Alliance is a constitutional monarchy; their political systems strengthen with better comms and transport infrastructure.  Then it becomes obvious to invest in command circuit infrastructure, even if you have to heavily subsidize it to get there.

There used to be a third major power, an authoritarian regime, in the region that was stronger than the other two called the Gumerian Diktat.  It fell behind the two both economically and technologically over the decades until it lost a war around the year 3000 and balkanized shortly after.  The in-universe reason for them falling behind was that they lagged behind with HPG and jumpship infrastructure, but I kinda glossed over the why, because I didn't have an answer other than "because that's how I want the setting to be"... But if either of those features threaten the Diktat's internal hold on power, then it makes perfect sense.
The space empire is out of reach though in a way the surface of a planet isnt.  Assuming you arnt totally an evil empire, creating and caring for a space service creates the need that keeps you in power.  Communications is a big one, satellites and media distribution are big deals, and while they don't delve into HPG economics its very hard for me to believe it has bandwidth at scale.  Even on earth today, a delivery truck has massively more data transportation then high speed internet, despite taking 2-3 days to drive the truck you still get WAY more data over time with physical delivery.  And I imagine the space future to have unimaginable data costs, which the HPG, even if sending a message was instant, cant nearly keep up with.  Like, a tri-vid show presumably is several times more data then a 4k tv show, and I dont think there is many descriptions of an HPG transmitting 30+ minute shows.  Its usually text being delivered via HPG.
In canon Comstar established a real-time link from New Avalon to Tharkad, and the Wobbies did them from time to time too.

It would be interesting to do an analysis of HPG networks in the same manner that this document did for Jumpships.  Unfortunately, there's a lot less hard information and rules for HPGs and their performance parameters than there are for Jumpships and cargo transfers, so there's not too much I can really do there.  Plus, HPG (+ Black Box) tech is pretty explicitly improved in the Vela Corridor compared to normal HPGs found in the Sphere, so unlike this Command Circuit document observations made for the Vela Corridor universe might not be applicable to canon BT.

Daryk

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Re: Whittle Network / Command Circuit [VC AU]
« Reply #28 on: 12 January 2024, 19:53:39 »
If you haven't already, I recommend reading up on the Doge of Venice... ;)