Author Topic: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era  (Read 3718 times)

Liam's Ghost

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Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« on: 11 January 2024, 12:01:28 »
Premise: The year is 3125. Your nation's intelligence service has discovered evidence that the Republic of the Sphere is secretly engaged in a program to build up their WarShip fleet. Available data indicates that they may have reactivated anywhere from a dozen to fifty WarShips from a star league era naval cache that was somehow missed by the Word of Blake during the Jihad, and they have begun construction of a new corvette class, with classes of larger ships planned for later.

While your political leadership will respond diplomatically in accordance with their particular idiom, you have been tasked with designing what your nation will build in response to this obvious threat to your security.

So, keeping in mind the general industrial capabilities of the state you represent, what would you submit for construction to expand your own naval capabilities?
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #1 on: 11 January 2024, 21:22:04 »
The Kirishima II is a Naval-C3 platform with the speed to keep range and the weapons to do damage at the longest possible ranges.

The primary weapons array of the Kirishima II are two aft-side bays with light and medium naval gauss dealing the maximum possible damage for a bay at the maximum possible range.  Complementing this are three aft-side bays each with 4 SCL/1s capable of shredding ASFs from beyond their effective range or engaging in orbital bombardment.   Closer in the fore sides feature 8 bays with twin light gauss rifles designed to deal heavy damage to any ASF getting in range.  At even shorter range, there are 4 independent screen launchers in the fore sides and aft providing the ability to control line of sight or deliver damage to entire squadrons of ASF.  At point blank range, the broadside, nose, and aft arcs are swaddled in bays with pairs of AMS and Laser AMS backed by an enhanced heat sinks array where Laser AMS can soak up small missile fire forever and AMS can handle massive peak loads.

Although the Kirishima series is not known for particularly heavy armor, an upgrade to Lamellor Ferro-Carbide, the AMS and the screen launchers all make the Kirishima II quite difficult to take down.  The real power of the Kirishima II is in it's extreme accuracy due to the use of Naval C3.  A Kirishima II can stay at extreme range, beyond the range of most enemy weapons (the light naval gauss actually outranges all other direct fire weapons when using individual ranges) with a different Miru making a short range pass each minute.  These allow the Kirishima II to connect with deeply penetrating hits consistently potentially taking down even battleships.

The extreme range and speed of the Kirishima II forces foes to fall back on capital missiles (which the AMS can soak quite a few of), ASF (which are subject to SCL fire before they can fire back), and assault dropships (which are subject to the punishing fire of the Naval gauss weapons bays).

Code: [Select]
Kirishima II Warship
Mass: 790,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 790,000
Battle Value: 81,320
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-X
Cost: 20,342,191,600 C-bills

Fuel: 7,450 tons (18,625)
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Sail Integrity: 5
KF Drive Integrity: 17
Heat Sinks: 1000 (2000)
Structural Integrity: 75

Armor
    Nose: 142
    Fore Sides: 225/225
    Aft Sides: 250/250
    Aft: 141

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Reinforced Repair Facility (800)1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (2)         1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (12)            6 Doors   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (400.0 tons)      1 Door   
    Bay 5:  Cargo (400.0 tons)      1 Door   
    Bay 6:  Cargo (400.0 tons)      1 Door   
    Bay 7:  Cargo (9354.5 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    9,120 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (760 tons),
    240 rounds of Medium N-Gauss ammunition (96 tons),
    720 rounds of Light N-Gauss ammunition (144 tons),
    2,560 rounds of Light Gauss Rifle ammunition (160 tons),
    720 rounds of Screen Launcher ammunition (7,200 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 3
Grav Decks: 2 (100 m, 130 m)
Escape Pods: 25
Life Boats: 25
Crew:  46 officers, 169 enlisted/non-rated, 59 gunners, 34 bay personnel, 120 passengers, 40 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Satellite Imager (Hyperspectral Imager)
    1 Satellite Imager (Look-Down Radar)
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Space Mine Dispenser
    1 Naval C3
    1 Satellite Imager (Infrared Imager)
1,185 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                       Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                 Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (80 Heat)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
FRS/FLS (60 Heat)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
2 Light Gauss Rifle                         2   2(16)   2(16)   2(16)    2(16)   AC         
    Light Gauss Rifle Ammo (128 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
RBS/LBS (80 Heat)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
ARS/ALS (372 Heat)
3 Naval Gauss (Light)                      42   70(700) 70(700) 70(700) 70(700)  Capital Gauss
    1 Naval Gauss (Medium)
    Light N-Gauss Ammo (180 shots)
    Medium N-Gauss Ammo (60 shots)
3 Naval Gauss (Light)                      42   70(700) 70(700) 70(700) 70(700)  Capital Gauss
    1 Naval Gauss (Medium)
    Light N-Gauss Ammo (180 shots)
    Medium N-Gauss Ammo (60 shots)
4 Sub-Capital Laser /1                     96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /1                     96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Sub-Capital Laser /1                     96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
Aft (104 Heat)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                                14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)

As a companion the Miru dropship was designed as the perfect Naval C3 spotter for the Kirishima II.  The Miru is little more than an engine, armor, and an electronics suite designed to direct fire on an enemy, all in a package small enough that capital weapons have difficulty targeting and with speeds that leave heavy ASF behind and damage the structure of medium ASF keeping up. 

Code: [Select]
Miru Dropship
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 400 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 400
Battle Value: 7,254
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 244,461,392 C-bills

Fuel: 16 tons (1,120)
Safe Thrust: 7
Maximum Thrust: 11
Heat Sinks: 35
Structural Integrity: 38

Armor
    Nose: 715
    Sides: 715/715
    Aft: 715

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Cargo (1.0 tons)        1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  1 officer, 4 enlisted/non-rated

Notes: Mounts 136.5 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:     Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat) Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Naval C3 & Beagle Active Probe

The Kirishima II has additional cargo storage compared to the Kirishima, enabling it to carry spare Miru's as cargo.  Normally warships carrying dropships as cargo (which is apparently legal) cannot launch them. They could however be loaded into the reinforced repair bay and launched directly into space via the repair bay.  The process of loading and unloading them is however cumbersome since the cargo bay must be flushed to vacuum and space suited crew must slowly pull a Miru in or out of storage.  Note that the repair bay itself can also carry a couple Miru.  Launching times from repair bays are not defined as far as I know.

Edits: a few updates to nail down Miru-as-cargo rules and downgraded to just 3 dropcollars as per the original Kirishima, saving some cost.

Retry

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #2 on: 11 January 2024, 21:59:42 »
Oh, that Miru is immensely clever.

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #3 on: 12 January 2024, 09:34:51 »
Oh, that Miru is immensely clever.
Thanks :-)

Honestly, it's about the only economical way to use Naval C3 on a dropship that I've found.

FastConcentrate8

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #4 on: 12 January 2024, 14:34:47 »
When I get my main computer back, I have an idea for a FedSuns Flagship but unfortunately can't run MML on my new computer. A while back, Tyler Jorgenson built me a Super Carrier in a previous challenge and I build a hybrid tech Dark Age version of it modified for FedSuns Air Wings. She can Throw 40 Fighters out in a single Full Cat Launch and carry a large battlegroup of Pocket Droppers with 10 docking collars (she can C3N Link to some of them too) and is well protected by a boat load of AMS and Screen Launchers.

It's very expensive, but very deadly carrier that can overwhelm most target's air defenses.

monbvol

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #5 on: 12 January 2024, 17:00:11 »
Thanks :-)

Honestly, it's about the only economical way to use Naval C3 on a dropship that I've found.

Since it is a Dropship I would give it a little more fuel and cargo so it can actually get itself where it needs to be without the crew suffocating and have fuel left to actually engage in a protracted battle.

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #6 on: 12 January 2024, 19:38:22 »
I agree with Monbvol... it needs more fuel...

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #7 on: 12 January 2024, 21:05:45 »
A side note: the reason why it's experimental tech is the Naval C3 which (I believe) has never been productionized and is DC-only tech.  Naval Gauss, the Kirishima backbone (Fuel, SI, thrust), and screen launchers were all DC-first tech.  The AMS/Light gauss/LAMS are not, but as battlemech scale weapons I figure there's plausibly some way to source as they are in general production.

Since it is a Dropship I would give it a little more fuel and cargo so it can actually get itself where it needs to be without the crew suffocating and have fuel left to actually engage in a protracted battle.

I agree with Monbvol... it needs more fuel...

Does it? In comparison to an ASF it has a strategic burn of 5 days and cargo for life support for 20 days.  At tactical scales it has about twice the fuel of typical fighters already, and it's mission profile says it needs to stay within 60 hexes (Naval C3 range) of a ship with guns (and more fuel).  That's a pretty tight leash---ASF with half the fuel often operate on longer range missions.

Coming at it another way, how much fuel is the right amount, and why?

...a Super Carrier...
Of late, I've been finding dropship based carriers more compelling.  You get more doors per transport bay, a higher tactical speed, and via jump circuits a higher strategic speed.   Still, there's no doubt that people notice when a Thera jumps in.

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #8 on: 12 January 2024, 21:09:50 »
Twice fighter fuel at tactical scale is still WAY low to operate with WarShips...

monbvol

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #9 on: 12 January 2024, 21:20:10 »
Unlike an ASF, a Dropship is going to be expected to be doing it's job for weeks.

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #10 on: 12 January 2024, 21:30:40 »
Exactly!  Small Craft can get away with a single digit multiple of ASF fuel, but DropShips?  Not so much...

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #11 on: 12 January 2024, 22:15:56 »
Unlike an ASF, a Dropship is going to be expected to be doing it's job for weeks.
I'm not really following why this isn't possible.  The primary consumable is fuel which could be topped up with the use of a refueling drogue for a minute.  The secondary consumables are spare parts and lifesupport consumables, but you could send around a smallcraft to connect and transfer them once a week.

Twice fighter fuel at tactical scale is still WAY low to operate with WarShips...
I'm not really following why.  ASF and smallcraft operate with WarShips despite having lower fuel reserves.  The Miru can't be recovered like an ASF or smallcraft, but it has a built-in crew for maintenance and occasional supply deliveries seems adequate. 

What's the scenario where you want to use the Miru but can't because the fuel is inadequate?  It has no meaningful missions far away from the Kirishima II.

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #12 on: 12 January 2024, 22:40:22 »
WarShips are designed for long haul missions, like a chase.  If you have less fuel than the quarry, it'll escape.

Cannonshop

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #13 on: 12 January 2024, 22:54:39 »
Let's remember the typical Battletechtm  Thought process here;

The Miryu is a dropship, Yes?  If it can go from the jump point to the planet's orbit on its fuel reserves, 99% of IS military planners will say it has enough fuel.

After all, engagements have to happen over the planet, interception in deep space is "Too Hard" (Difficult) to reliably plan for, so why plan for it?
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #14 on: 12 January 2024, 23:23:02 »
WarShips are designed for long haul missions, like a chase.  If you have less fuel than the quarry, it'll escape.
First of all, I was wrong about the refueling drogue---it only works for ASF/smallcraft apparently.

Second, there's a three step maneuver to handle this. 
  • A smallcraft departs the warship with supplies.
  • The smallcraft and Miru achieve zero relative velocity with the smallcraft grappling (per TO page 199) to transfer supplies / fuel for a few minutes.
  • The smallcraft+Miru accelerate faster than the Kirishima II to catch up.
 
This is viable, although somewhat more annoying than I was imagining.  Given that, I decided to ditch the escape pod, up the cargo to 1 ton and the fuel to 16 tons.   This is 8 burn-days of fuel which should reduce the instances of the somewhat-annoying maneuver. 

Addresses the concern?

Edit:
The Miryu is a dropship, Yes?  If it can go from the jump point to the planet's orbit on its fuel reserves, 99% of IS military planners will say it has enough fuel.
Well, with the modification it's certainly possible to do a zenith/terra transit with a small coast a bit in the middle. 

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #15 on: 13 January 2024, 01:48:24 »
First of all, I was wrong about the refueling drogue---it only works for ASF/smallcraft apparently.

Large craft can dock with each other at a bay door or docking collar and transfer fuel that way. Successfully docking in that manner takes thirty minutes, and assuming a standard deck crew (no exoskeletons doing the work) and drawing from a portion of the cargo bay sectioned off as liquid cargo, you can transfer two tons of fuel per minute. You could probably draw directly from a ship's fuel tanks, but the rules don't specifically mention it.

(Docking two ships together is covered in Strategic Operations, but transferring cargo between them is covered in Campaign operations)

Of course, if a GM wanted to be a hardass, they might insist that the ship must carry a dedicated liquid (or insulated) cargo bay to actually refuel another ship, but in universe it's generally been assumed that even if a ship needs to carry extra fuel in the cargo bays, the necessary temporary equipment can just be installed in a standard cargo bay.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #16 on: 13 January 2024, 05:58:31 »
Large craft can dock with each other at a bay door or docking collar and transfer fuel that way.
Unfortunately, does not work in the pursuit scenario because you cannot dock under thrust.

Dragon Cat

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #17 on: 13 January 2024, 09:15:14 »
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,40981.msg946150.html#msg946150

I humbly submit the Whirlwind II Destroyer I designed with Corsair_SG a while ago for my AU with some modified fluff for House Davion in the DA era.

Overview
When House Davion restarted its WarShip program they knew they could not rebuild the Avalon production line the ship was too large, required a large crew and needed a capital missile supply line to supply it. House Davion turned to their Dark Age arms dealer for the answer - enter Clan Sea Fox - always looking to turn a profit the Foxes were willing to trade to House Davion the Whirlwind-class Destroyer a class of WarShip with House Davion heritage in the Davion-class Destroyer.

The Whirlwind itself was too vulnerable a design to put straight into production, it lacked sufficient anti-fighter and defences so a variety of conventional missiles, extended range lasers and rotary autocannons were added along with a defence suite of anti-missile systems and screen launchers. Finally the ship was fully equipped with a wing of aerospace fighters, small craft and battle armoured marines. All the modifications added two full years to the development of the WarShip, it was planned that ten WarShips per March would be produced.
My three main Alternate Timeline with Thanks fan-fiction threads are in the links below. I'm always open to suggestions or additions to be incorporated so if you feel you wish to add something feel free. There's non-canon units, equipment, people, events, erm... Solar Systems spread throughout so please enjoy

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79196.0.html - Part 3

Hellraiser

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #18 on: 13 January 2024, 13:39:24 »
So, a good long while ago I had an idea for rebuilding post Jihad.

One of the basic premises was that while each faction had their own "major" warship yards, the one thing in common that all nations had was access to some portion of the original 5 Jumpships from DS/JS.

Assuming each shipyard didn't have some capacity massively larger than those 5 Jumpships, I went about coming up with a "basic" fleet concept that could be built on.

Scout - 90KT
Merchant - 120KT
Invader - 152KT
Starlord - 274KT
Monolith - 430KT

Convert each type of yard over to the following:

Hunter-LFB - 95KT
Tracker (New Block-II variant)  -  120KT
Invader-C  -  152KT    (Still need a basic JS for many things & adding Clan Sealant tech is a nice basic upgrade along w/ c-ERLLs)
Fox Class Corvette  (New Block-II variant)  -  240KT
New Light Destroyer/Carrier  (See below)  -  430KT 


I pulled these stats from my thread from a decade ago.


Code: [Select]
                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Monolisk Class Destroyer
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3132
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Custom design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              430,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            558 meters
Sail Diameter:     998 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       3
Maximum Thrust:    5
Armor Type:        Ferro-carbide
Armament:         
    4 Maelstrom AR10 Launcher
   20 Grizzard Gauss Rifle
   60 Thunderbolt-12 Large Pulse Laser
   40 McArthur AMS
   20 Tronel-45 Series NL45
    8 Orient-30 Series NAC/30
    4 Mirage Systems Screen Launcher
   42 Newhart ER Large Laser
Manufacturer:   FedSuns, LyrCom, Republic
  Location:     Any Monlith Shipyard
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Monolisk Class Destroyer
Mass:              430,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                       77,400.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 3
      Maximum Thrust: 5
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 10)               194,575.00
Lithium Fusion Battery                                               4,300.00
Jump Sail (Detachable): (Integrity = 4)                                 52.00
Structural Integrity: 110                                           47,300.00
Total Heat Sinks:    2,438 Single                                    2,000.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                   4,386.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              1,075.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                 50.00
Hyperpulse Generator:                                                   50.00
Armor Type:  Ferro-carbide  (823 total armor pts)                      946.00
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                120
   Fore-Left/Right:                  150/150
   Aft-Left/Right:                   150/150
   Aft:                                 103

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Fighters (8 ) with 1 door                                  1,200.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,374.00
   Bay 2:  Fighters (12) with 2 doors                                1,800.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,300.00
   Bay 3:  Small Craft (6) with 1 door                               1,200.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,374.00
   Bay 4:  Fighters (8 ) with 1 door                                  1,200.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,374.00
   Bay 5:  Fighters (12) with 2 doors                                1,800.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,300.00
   Bay 6:  Small Craft (6) with 1 door                               1,200.00
           Cargo (1) with 1 door                                     4,374.00

DropShip Capacity:  9 Docking Hardpoints                             9,000.00
Grav Deck #1:  (95-meter diameter)                                      50.00
Grav Deck #2:  (95-meter diameter)                                      50.00
Grav Deck #3:  (95-meter diameter)                                      50.00
Life Boats:  40 (7 tons each)                                          280.00
Escape Pods:  40 (7 tons each)                                         280.00

Crew and Passengers:
     34 Officers (34 minimum)                                          340.00
     97 Crew (97 minimum)                                              679.00
     63 Gunners (63 minimum)                                           441.00
      5 1st Class Passengers                                            50.00
     10 2nd Class Passengers                                            70.00
    140 Steerage Passengers                                            700.00
     94 Marines                                                        470.00
     16 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals                        112.00
    140 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 AR10 (8 KW, 6 WS, 6 B)   Nose         *      *      *      *   40  1,320.00
3 Gauss Rifle(48 rounds)   Nose     5(45)  5(45)  5(45)     --    3     51.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        Nose     5(45)  5(45)     --     --   50     35.00
10 AMS(240 rounds)         Nose        --     --     --     --   10     25.00
5 NL45                     FL/R        23     23     23     23  700  9,000.00
2 NAC/30(40 rounds)        FL/R        60     60     60     --  400 14,064.00
1 Screen Launcher(20 scrns)FL/R        --     --     --     --   20    480.00
7 ER Large Laser           FL/R     6(56)  6(56)  6(56)     --  168     70.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        FL/R     5(45)  5(45)     --     --  100     70.00
7 Gauss Rifle(112 rounds)  L/RBS  11(105)11(105)11(105)     --   14    238.00
7 ER Large Laser           L/RBS    6(56)  6(56)  6(56)     --  168     70.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        L/RBS    5(45)  5(45)     --     --  100     70.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        L/RBS    5(45)  5(45)     --     --  100     70.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        L/RBS    5(45)  5(45)     --     --  100     70.00
10 AMS(240 rounds)         L/RBS       --     --     --     --   20     50.00
5 NL45                     AL/R        23     23     23     23  700  9,000.00
2 NAC/30(40 rounds)        AL/R        60     60     60     --  400 14,064.00
1 Screen Launcher(20 scrns)AL/R        --     --     --     --   20    480.00
7 ER Large Laser           AL/R     6(56)  6(56)  6(56)     --  168     70.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        AL/R     5(45)  5(45)     --     --  100     70.00
2 AR10 (8 KW, 6 WS, 6 B)   Aft          *      *      *      *   40  1,320.00
3 Gauss Rifle(48 rounds)   Aft      5(45)  5(45)  5(45)     --    3     51.00
5 Large Pulse Laser        Aft      5(45)  5(45)     --     --   50     35.00
10 AMS(240 rounds)         Aft         --     --     --     --   10     25.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                            Heat: 3,484     430,000.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        28,497,304,400 C-Bills
Battle Value:      95,442
Cost per BV:       298,582.43
Weapon Value:      62,610 (Ratio = .66)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 3,082;  MRV = 2,887;  LRV = 1,872;  ERV = 681
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 358,367
                   (108,203 Structure, 126,808 Life Support, 123,356 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 366,219  (102% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable


My current PC no longer has a design program on it, otherwise I'd tweak the stats a bit, but over all I think it gets the idea across.

I like the idea of working w/ what you've got & trying to both rebuild a navy while not losing the capacity to move DS around at the expense of a more combat oriented selection of ships.

Each house still has their "signature" heavy capital ships for some individuality.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Gorgon

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #19 on: 13 January 2024, 18:35:04 »
Avanti-class Corvette (Duchy of Tamarind-Abbey)


News of the Republic of the Sphere's dramatic naval expansion program caught the ducal government on Tamarindby surprise. The Duchy had struggled to develop a domestic defense industry to help secure its independence followingthe turmoil of the Jihad. Of highest priority had been the creation and expansion of the first armed forces in the Duchy's history, especially the ground forces. What Aerospace forces existed were mostly reliant on former FWLN and FWLM fighters and dropships and what equipment could be bought on the open market. Technicron Manufacturing, formerly the producers of the Free World's League first new warshipclass in centuries, had turned their attention wholly to the production of Invader-class jumpships to profit from the post-war economic recovery.

So by 3125, the Armed Forces of the Duchy of Tamarind-Abbey and Technicron had to start from scratch, if they wanted to compete in the nascent arms race. Given the financial and industrial resources of the Duchy, the navy decided to focus on the development of a corvette-sized vessel, that could operate as the heart of a task force comprised of ASF and combat dropships. A vessel the size of the former Impavido-class was unfortunately out of the question for the time being. Technicron, however, was optimistic that they could develop a vessel fitting the desired specifications and put itinto production much faster than a larger design.

The new Avanti-class corvette was designed with survivability in mind: it was to be robust and equipped to support conventional aerospace forces without having to dive right into close combat slugging matches with anything more capable than itself. Long range fire power, backed up by advanced electronics and protected by ample anti-fighter and anti-missile defenses formed the corner stone of the Avanti's design.

The biggest hurdle during the construction process of the lead ship - TANS Avanti - proved to be the transit drives. Technicron had ample experience with designing, building and maintaining jump cores and sails, but even during the naval renaissance of the FWLN the transit drives of the Impavido had been designed and built by other companies with closer ties to the Word of Blake. Therefore, the design team opted for smaller, less capable drives that would - hopefully - prove easier to built. Still, the transit drives suffered multiple delays and set-backs, significantly prolonging the production of the Avanti.


Code: [Select]
Avanti Corvette
Mass: 240,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3145
Mass: 240,000
Battle Value: 77,147
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-F
Cost: 17,577,400,800 C-bills

Fuel: 1,600 tons (8,000)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 7
Heat Sinks: 760 (1520)
Structural Integrity: 50

Armor
    Nose: 42
    Fore Sides: 38/38
    Aft Sides: 38/38
    Aft: 28

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (18)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (8)         4 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (8825.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    1,440 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (4 tons),
    60 rounds of Killer Whale ammunition (150 tons),
    40 rounds of Screen Launcher ammunition (40 tons),
    160 rounds of Piranha ammunition (430 tons),
    1,200 rounds of LB 20-X Cluster ammunition (6 tons),
    80 rounds of NAC/30 ammunition (1.6 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 4
Grav Decks: 2 (78 m, 78 m)
Escape Pods: 24
Life Boats: 24
Crew:  48 officers, 57 enlisted/non-rated, 50 gunners, 76 bay personnel, 20 passengers, 40 BA marines       

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    240 tons of improved ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                                       Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                 Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (314 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 45                           280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
10 Anti-Missile System                     10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (360 shots)
4 LB 20-X AC                               24   8(80)   8(80)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (200 shots)
FRS/FLS (110 Heat)
4 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   36   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (40 shots)
4 LB 20-X AC                               24   8(80)   8(80)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (200 shots)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (Killer Whale)  40   8(80)   8(80)   8(80)    8(80)   Capital Missile
    Killer Whale Ammo (20 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (10 shots)
RBS/LBS (490 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)                200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (40 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                           280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
10 Anti-Missile System                     10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (360 shots)
ARS/ALS (70 Heat)
4 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)   36   12(120) 12(120) 12(120)   0(0)   Sub-Capital Missile
    Piranha Ammo (40 shots)
4 LB 20-X AC                               24   8(80)   8(80)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (200 shots)
1 Screen Launcher                          10   15(150)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (10 shots)
Aft (354 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 45                           280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
10 Anti-Missile System                     10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (360 shots)
4 LB 20-X AC                               24   8(80)   8(80)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (200 shots)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (Killer Whale)  40   8(80)   8(80)   8(80)    8(80)   Capital Missile
    Killer Whale Ammo (20 shots)
   

Note:
So like the Duchy I'm new to this whole warship thing. This is, in fact, my first ever warship, so any feedback is very welcome. I tried to use canon ships and the discussion around them as a guideline. But I'm not sure if the weapons and their arrangement makes any sense or if the anti-fighter and anti missile weapons are too much or too little.

I envision the PIranhas to be mostly used in an AA capability, with the LB-20Xs as close-in defense. Killer Whales will be used as stand-off anti ship weapons. The NL-45 are dual-use: snipe dropships or warships or switch to anti-fighter-mode as needed. If things go sideways or a target of opportunity presents itself, the dual NAC-30s in the broadside will hopefully end a fight before the Avanti gets blown up.
Jude Melancon lives!

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #20 on: 13 January 2024, 19:05:35 »
Looks good to me!  Enough NL-45s, AMS... plenty of goodness there! :)

Smegish

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #21 on: 13 January 2024, 23:31:37 »
Gorgon: Armour is a touch thin, but can't be helped with a ship that size without going with Ferro-Carbide or Lemellor F-C armour. Other than that the L-F batteries make it a VERY expensive ship for it's size, but the strategic manoeuvrability is nice to have.

Centrella-class Frigate (Faction should be obvious)

Upon hearing of the Republic's plans for rearmament, the Magistracy decided it needed a fleet of its own to deal with the inevitable build-up from the various parts of the former Free Worlds League. The chance of some export sales to it's Capellan allies would help alleviate the costs of the initial production setup.

In order to both minimise the strain on the economy and not appear to be an existential threat to it's neighbours - that might cause them to attack the Magistracy before the fleet was strong enough to repel them - the Centrella was kept to a more moderate size then some designs that are crossing the desks of the Inner Sphere leadership. At only 350 kilotons the Centrella is not intended to go charging off into the heart of the enemy, but instead maintain a steady rate of fire from long range with it's battery of twelve Heavy NPPCs and twenty-eight Class-45 Naval Lasers. A substantial battery of PPCs protect the ship from fighters and smaller craft, and a plethora of Laser AMS should give teh vessel ample defence against missile strikes.

Two of the major cost-saving measures were the decision not to mount Lithium-Fusion batteries, and also installing a smaller sub-light drive than many might expect in a ship this size, limiting it's acceleration to a mere 2.5G. However these choices did mean that the ship comes in at just slightly more than 9 Billion C-Bills, significantly cheaper than many other designs currently under construction elsewhere allowing the smaller Magistracy economy the ability to keep up with the ship numbers of it's neighbours without bankrupting the nation. This has been helped by the announcement of a export sales as well as a licence to build the Centrella in the Confederation, though the details of exactly how many of the twenty ships ordered will be built in Canopian yards rather than Capellan ones have not yet been finalized.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Centrella
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $9,115,222,000.00
Magazine Cost: $0.00
BV2: 46,380

Mass: 350,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
12 Naval PPC Heavy
40 LAMS (IS)
48 PPC
28 Naval Laser 45

Class/Model/Name: Centrella
Mass: 350,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 63,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 875.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (9 Integrity) 158,375.00
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 48.00
Structural Integrity: 70 24,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 2710(5420) Double 2,311.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10000 points 4,080.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 532 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 490.00
Fore: 80
Fore-Left/Right: 93/93
Aft-Left/Right: 93/93
Aft: 80

Dropship Capacity: 4 4,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100.00
Medium: 0.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 0 0.00
Life Boats: 50 350.00

Crew And Passengers:
30 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 210.00
85 Crew in Steerage Quarters 425.00
60 Gunners and Others in Steerage Quarters 300.00
54 Bay Personnel 0.00
1st Class Passengers 0.00
50 2nd Class Passengers 350.00
90 Steerage Passengers 450.00

Bay #1 Small Craft (6) - 1 Door
Bay #2 Fighters (12) - 2 Doors
Bay #3 Cargo (25,040 tons) - 2 Doors

490 Tons of Lamellor Ferro-Carbide Armour
Large Naval Comms-Scanner Suite

Nose:

2 x 5 LAMS
2 x 2 NL/45

FL/FR:

3 x 4 PPC
2 x 2 NL/45
1 x 2 HNPPC

LBS/RBS:

2 x 5 LAMS
2 x 2 NL/45
1 x 2 HNPPC

AR/AL:

3 x 4 PPC
2 x 2 NL/45
1 x 2 HNPPC

Aft:

2 x 5 LAMS
« Last Edit: 13 January 2024, 23:34:36 by Smegish »

idea weenie

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #22 on: 14 January 2024, 01:13:05 »
This is viable, although somewhat more annoying than I was imagining.  Given that, I decided to ditch the escape pod, up the cargo to 1 ton and the fuel to 16 tons.   This is 8 burn-days of fuel which should reduce the instances of the somewhat-annoying maneuver. 

I could see the Life Boat still being included, to reflect emergency rations/escape room in case the Small Craft has a problem.  If the Small Craft loses primary life support, the Life Boat is a separate and contained life support environment that can keep a 6-person crew alive for the next two weeks.

I'd still want to increase the Miryu's mass so it could carry enough fuel to go from the Jump Point to the planet and back on internal fuel.  Each of your Docking Collars can handle Dropships up to 100 ktons in mass, I'd recommend increasing the Miryu's mass to take advantage of some of that capacity.  I don't think you can use a pair of Small Craft Bays to store a single 400-ton Miryu.


Gorgon: Armour is a touch thin, but can't be helped with a ship that size without going with Ferro-Carbide or Lemellor F-C armour. Other than that the L-F batteries make it a VERY expensive ship for it's size, but the strategic manoeuvrability is nice to have.

Centrella-class Frigate (Faction should be obvious)

Upon hearing of the Republic's plans for rearmament, the Magistracy decided it needed a fleet of its own to deal with the inevitable build-up from the various parts of the former Free Worlds League. The chance of some export sales to it's Capellan allies would help alleviate the costs of the initial production setup.

In order to both minimise the strain on the economy and not appear to be an existential threat to it's neighbours - that might cause them to attack the Magistracy before the fleet was strong enough to repel them - the Centrella was kept to a more moderate size then some designs that are crossing the desks of the Inner Sphere leadership. At only 350 kilotons the Centrella is not intended to go charging off into the heart of the enemy, but instead maintain a steady rate of fire from long range with it's battery of twelve Heavy NPPCs and twenty-eight Class-45 Naval Lasers. A substantial battery of PPCs protect the ship from fighters and smaller craft, and a plethora of Laser AMS should give teh vessel ample defence against missile strikes.

Two of the major cost-saving measures were the decision not to mount Lithium-Fusion batteries, and also installing a smaller sub-light drive than many might expect in a ship this size, limiting it's acceleration to a mere 2.5G. However these choices did mean that the ship comes in at just slightly more than 9 Billion C-Bills, significantly cheaper than many other designs currently under construction elsewhere allowing the smaller Magistracy economy the ability to keep up with the ship numbers of it's neighbours without bankrupting the nation. This has been helped by the announcement of a export sales as well as a licence to build the Centrella in the Confederation, though the details of exactly how many of the twenty ships ordered will be built in Canopian yards rather than Capellan ones have not yet been finalized.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Centrella
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $9,115,222,000.00
Magazine Cost: $0.00
BV2: 46,380
Mass: 350,000

Did a cost study on the Centrella by increasing its mass to 700 ktons while keeping all else the same.  This raises the cost from ~9.1 billion to ~10.7 billion, and allows for an additional ~100 ktons cargo room.

This might be a future idea to hide larger hulls under the same design specifications (fuel capacity, weapons loadout, armor tonnage, etc), but have plenty of room for future expansion.  In the meantime this larger design can serve as flagship or critical materials transport.

The later upgrades would involve moving around the Naval Lasers to make room for an additional 22 HNPPC, for a cost of less than half a billion more.  The doubled hull size would also allow adding another 490 tons of armor for another 49 million in cost, almost doubling the protection.  It will wind up needing 41 officers and 259 crew, leaving only enough room for 15 passengers.

monbvol

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #23 on: 14 January 2024, 01:48:40 »
I could see the Life Boat still being included, to reflect emergency rations/escape room in case the Small Craft has a problem.  If the Small Craft loses primary life support, the Life Boat is a separate and contained life support environment that can keep a 6-person crew alive for the next two weeks.

I'd still want to increase the Miryu's mass so it could carry enough fuel to go from the Jump Point to the planet and back on internal fuel.  Each of your Docking Collars can handle Dropships up to 100 ktons in mass, I'd recommend increasing the Miryu's mass to take advantage of some of that capacity.  I don't think you can use a pair of Small Craft Bays to store a single 400-ton Miryu.

You indeed cannot use Small Craft bays for Dropships.

The 400 tons aspect is fine.  If anything it does have armor to spare that it could scrape a fairly insignificant portion off, have the Life Boat, have more than enough fuel to reach standard jump point to planet back again, and have enough it could toss in more cargo for in field repairs and not just crew consumables.

Smegish

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #24 on: 14 January 2024, 02:15:54 »
Idea weenie: on the one hand, I guess I forgot the detail that the Magistracy lacks a yard of sufficient size to build a 700kt ship, and building it would put the cost of the project at the very limits of what the Canopians could build, leaving no wiggle room for the inevitable cost overruns.

On the other hand, the larger more powerful ship is a Confederation design I haven't finished yet.  :wink:

Retry

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #25 on: 14 January 2024, 02:34:37 »
You indeed cannot use Small Craft bays for Dropships.

The 400 tons aspect is fine.  If anything it does have armor to spare that it could scrape a fairly insignificant portion off, have the Life Boat, have more than enough fuel to reach standard jump point to planet back again, and have enough it could toss in more cargo for in field repairs and not just crew consumables.
I kind of wish the Dropshuttle Bay had persisted in some form so we could still bring some small, niche Dropship designs like Vampires or Miryus without having them take up valuable hardpoint space.
I could see the Life Boat still being included, to reflect emergency rations/escape room in case the Small Craft has a problem.  If the Small Craft loses primary life support, the Life Boat is a separate and contained life support environment that can keep a 6-person crew alive for the next two weeks.

I'd still want to increase the Miryu's mass so it could carry enough fuel to go from the Jump Point to the planet and back on internal fuel.  Each of your Docking Collars can handle Dropships up to 100 ktons in mass, I'd recommend increasing the Miryu's mass to take advantage of some of that capacity.  I don't think you can use a pair of Small Craft Bays to store a single 400-ton Miryu.
400 ton Dropships are small enough that Cap weapons take the huge +5 to-hit penalty and subcaps take +3, like fighters and small craft, that's what makes the design so clever.  Making it just 100 tons heavier negates that boon.  At that point you may as well go all out and make it a 10k ton gunship with a C3 system attached.

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #26 on: 14 January 2024, 08:23:43 »
The 400 tons aspect is fine.  If anything it does have armor to spare that it could scrape a fairly insignificant portion off, have the Life Boat, have more than enough fuel to reach standard jump point to planet back again, and have enough it could toss in more cargo for in field repairs and not just crew consumables.
I'm not feeling the motivation here.  Zenith to planet transit just isn't a compelling mission profile for a Miru since it's only a valuable design in the presence of something with a big gun and Naval C3. Daryk's pursuit mission seems like a valid profile to be concerned with, and we have a solution to that.  Is there another valid mission profile here? 

I kind of wish the Dropshuttle Bay had persisted in some form so we could still bring some small, niche Dropship designs like Vampires or Miryus without having them take up valuable hardpoint space.
Well, you could carry a couple in a reinforced repair bay.  The disadvantage here is that there is no published deployment time.  You could also carry the dropships in a cargo bay, flush the atmosphere from the cargo bay, and then slowly (and carefully) have a crew move them out of the bay at zero G.  The point of having all 5 dropship hardpoints is that you can jump directly into a combat zone ready to go, not that you must.

I tweaked the Kirishima II design to have the above explicitly rather than the vague 5 doors to the cargo bay.
400 ton Dropships are small enough that Cap weapons take the huge +5 to-hit penalty and subcaps take +3, like fighters and small craft, that's what makes the design so clever.  Making it just 100 tons heavier negates that boon.  At that point you may as well go all out and make it a 10k ton gunship with a C3 system attached.
Yeah, exactly---a warship destroyer rather than a (pocket) warship.

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #27 on: 14 January 2024, 08:56:47 »
I've been reading up on the Electronic Warfare rules... it seems to be worth it to install both an Active Probe and an ECM Suite in Small Craft.  It's a shame you can only have one Probe, though...

Cannonshop

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #28 on: 14 January 2024, 11:07:31 »
I could see the Life Boat still being included, to reflect emergency rations/escape room in case the Small Craft has a problem.  If the Small Craft loses primary life support, the Life Boat is a separate and contained life support environment that can keep a 6-person crew alive for the next two weeks.

I'd still want to increase the Miryu's mass so it could carry enough fuel to go from the Jump Point to the planet and back on internal fuel.  Each of your Docking Collars can handle Dropships up to 100 ktons in mass, I'd recommend increasing the Miryu's mass to take advantage of some of that capacity.  I don't think you can use a pair of Small Craft Bays to store a single 400-ton Miryu.


Did a cost study on the Centrella by increasing its mass to 700 ktons while keeping all else the same.  This raises the cost from ~9.1 billion to ~10.7 billion, and allows for an additional ~100 ktons cargo room.

This might be a future idea to hide larger hulls under the same design specifications (fuel capacity, weapons loadout, armor tonnage, etc), but have plenty of room for future expansion.  In the meantime this larger design can serve as flagship or critical materials transport.

The later upgrades would involve moving around the Naval Lasers to make room for an additional 22 HNPPC, for a cost of less than half a billion more.  The doubled hull size would also allow adding another 490 tons of armor for another 49 million in cost, almost doubling the protection.  It will wind up needing 41 officers and 259 crew, leaving only enough room for 15 passengers.

That extra cargo space might actually be important and/or useful, particularly for the flagship role, since it lets you carry enough schleppage to refuel other units in its group, carry spare ammunition, spare parts...

Main thing I'm seeing thus far in this challenge, is everyone's doing combat units, nobody's doing the things that actually make your Navy a Navy instead of a collection of expensive collectibles.

Particularly given the state of things at the start of this as posited by the OP.

What is actually needed?

1. The navy needs the ability to support itself on deployment.  This is first-and-foremost, given the lack of shipyard spaces and their concentration in vulnerable locations especially.  Flag vessels need to be able to support the non-flag vessels, because for a lot of the time, they're not going to be lingering next to a shipyard location where repairs and restocking can be done.

2. Fuel, Charging and Communications links, logistics vessels, etc. etc. etc-your patrol radius is decided by how quickly fuel and spare parts can arrive, or by how long you can run on what you're carrying.  I was kind of tongue-in-cheek on the Miru's lack of fuel, but it's a serious problem for anything that isn't an immediate local defense unit.  The fuel on a Warship is also the fuel they feed their fighters, small craft, or escort dropships.  Supplies carried as cargo aren't just there for THAT ship, they're there for the lesser units in that ship's escort group, including fighters and small craft, and assault dropships.

In the immediate situation, I see a few different approaches, but the one I'd suggest, is bulking up your production of things like portable yard facilities, charging stations, and supply jumpships first, with medium weight duration ships that may not have "AAAALLLL THE FIREPOWER!!!!" but can definitely stay in motion, and keep their support elements in motion as well.

Basically, I'd invest in Trackers and supply/logistics stations with assault dropships as supplementary, and only after I've got decent amounts of coverage within my domestic borders, put some investment into building bigger ships, probably starting with 'Destroyer Leaders' and finishing on a medium weight Cruiser design that can be made cheaper than the ornate battleships the neighbors plowed their tax funds into.

but then, I look at it a bit like an economist-a navy you can't keep manned, fueled and fed, is a navy you can't use, likewise for a navy that can't absorb losses, because no matter HOW big you build it, no warship is invulnerable.  If I lose a Tracker damaging the hell out of a Leviathan III, then that Levi has to retire to get repaired, and it'll cost as much as TWO trackers, that can cover more systems more efficiently, across a broader set of requirements than "Flagship for an invasion of a planet".

Second thing, is 'Fleet in being'.  This forces your opponent to counter you, even if you shy away from direct confrontation-he's got to account for your fleet striking somewhere he's vulnerable while his ubar warship is striking at a single system.

(I actually demonstrated this in the FC'62 game by breaking up ordinary jumpship groups and scattering them around-it stopped the massive all-Leviathans-invasion-fleets of another player and forced him to move through unclaimed space one hex at a time...to deal with a single ship.  This has been shown to work with real life forces in the past-if they know theres someone lurking in the back field, they tend to move slower.)

Third is consolidation.  This is why communications is so important.   The hypothetical Lone Leviathan can be caught out by arriving task forces and he has to face multiple opponents, possibly from multiple directions, simultaneously (or near enough).

Or, those ships can be busy flattening his logistical tail, striking his industrial base, and kllling everything he doesn't have the Ubar-Warship to defend.

Point being, in a single engagement, bigger might be better, but smaller is more likely to win actual wars.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #29 on: 14 January 2024, 11:35:18 »
Code: [Select]
Erinace (Escort)
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 34,900 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 34,900
Battle Value: 45,129
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 4,023,930,400 C-bills

Fuel: 200 tons (4,000)
Safe Thrust: 7
Maximum Thrust: 11
Heat Sinks: 864 (1728)
Structural Integrity: 209

Armor
    Nose: 3011
    Sides: 3005/3005
    Aft: 3004

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 4:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 5:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 6:  Fighter (1)             1 Door   
    Bay 7:  BattleArmor (CS) (2)    1 Door   
    Bay 8:  Cargo (212.0 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
None

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 10
Crew:  5 officers, 6 enlisted/non-rated, 12 gunners, 24 bay personnel

Notes: Mounts 752 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                 Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)           Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (288 Heat)
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
RS/LS Fwd (288 Heat)
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
RS/LS Aft (288 Heat)
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
Aft (288 Heat)
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Laser AMS          14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
2 Large Pulse Laser  20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser


I think that it's somewhat weird, but what about this as the C3 picket ship? It could cut the nuclear missiles while engage some ASFs, and it's armor is hard enough to withstand several volley of capital weapon battery. I suppose it to be the interceptor that works closely with the warships and/or space stations so I don't care for the quarters and spare fuel much, and the crews are expected to be live in the mothership for the most time on their guard duty instead.

Code: [Select]
Erinace (Avenger)
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 34,900 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3125
Mass: 34,900
Battle Value: 83,009
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 4,610,978,400 C-bills

Fuel: 200 tons (4,000)
Safe Thrust: 7
Maximum Thrust: 11
Heat Sinks: 1419 (2838)
Structural Integrity: 184

Armor
    Nose: 2651
    Sides: 2645/2645
    Aft: 2645

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Cargo (267.0 tons)      3 Doors   

Ammunition:
    60 rounds of AC/10 ammunition (6 tons),
    2,760 rounds of Ultra AC/20 ammunition (6 tons)

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 5
Crew:  7 officers, 4 enlisted/non-rated, 24 gunners

Notes: Mounts 662 tons of heavy ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                          Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                    Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (187 Heat)
1 AC/10                       187  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)    0(0)  AC         
    23 Ultra AC/20
    AC/10 Ammo (10 shots)
    Ultra AC/20 Ammo (460 shots)
RS/LS Fwd (187 Heat)
1 AC/10                       187  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)    0(0)  AC         
    23 Ultra AC/20
    AC/10 Ammo (10 shots)
    Ultra AC/20 Ammo (460 shots)
RS/LS Aft (187 Heat)
1 AC/10                       187  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)    0(0)  AC         
    23 Ultra AC/20
    AC/10 Ammo (10 shots)
    Ultra AC/20 Ammo (460 shots)
Aft (187 Heat)
1 AC/10                       187  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)    0(0)  AC         
    23 Ultra AC/20
    AC/10 Ammo (10 shots)
    Ultra AC/20 Ammo (460 shots)


A slightly fragile variant, this is exists to rush through enemy line alongside the normal models and attack the enemy warship. It lacks its own defensive tools so it needs to be stay with its sisters all the times.